Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools (WWASPS) => Topic started by: proudgrad on May 16, 2006, 03:13:00 PM
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Have you guys read Come Back yet? What a wonderful book about a girl who graduated from SCL, it's done extremely well, and is even on Barnes and Nobles reccomended reading list, which is sure to attract readers who don't know anything about the program world. The story is one of truth and triumph and demonstrates how these programs truly do save lives! Don't bother attacking this post, after all folks you can't deny results, and this book is just another witness to the fact that the programs works, it saved this girls life, and it saved mine, and thousands of other kids stand as witnesses to the very same thing![ This Message was edited by: proudgrad on 2006-05-16 12:14 ]
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::boycott::
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brainwashing is a wonderful thing!
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Isn't it about time some SCL grads reviewed this book on Amazon?
Or how about those who attended Morava?
Surely someone might want to mention that the heroes of this book have told a few porky pies along the way?
There is not one critical review on the link:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/006079 ... e&n=283155 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060792167/qid=1147814650/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/103-8998735-6808633?s=books&v=glance&n=283155)
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Probably because they don't want to waste their time reading 320 pages of garbage and propganda.
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On 2006-05-16 12:13:00, proudgrad wrote:
"Have you guys read Come Back yet? What a wonderful book about a girl who graduated from SCL, it's done extremely well, and is even on Barnes and Nobles reccomended reading list, which is sure to attract readers who don't know anything about the program world. The story is one of truth and triumph and demonstrates how these programs truly do save lives! Don't bother attacking this post, after all folks you can't deny results, and this book is just another witness to the fact that the programs works, it saved this girls life, and it saved mine, and thousands of other kids stand as witnesses to the very same thing![ This Message was edited by: proudgrad on 2006-05-16 12:14 ]"
A North Vietnamese POW camp helped to make John McCain a senator, but I don't think anyone would put it on the list of reccommended experience. You support the torture of kids, methods so extreme that they are unaccepted in the civilized world. Jay Kay, the owner of Tranquility Bay where you transfer kids to, thereby endorsing his child care methods, admits to this. Stick around. Lets debate.
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Karlye Newman hung herself at SCL. Many others have complained about being stuck in the Hobbit, and I won't repost a picture of that or the new purple room that makes Cameron look like a hiefer.
Here's a link to the testimony of Ashley, an SCL grad who's not trying to make a buck at the expense of others:
http://www.tbfight.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=31 (http://www.tbfight.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=91&Itemid=31)
Also of course go to Spring Creekers on Myspace or any other program forum such as http://www.antiwwasp.com (http://www.antiwwasp.com) for detailed insights into SCL, provided by people who do not stand to profit by lying on behalf of the program.
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It has been confirmed SCL staff -- current staff included -- use hard drugs like meth.
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Lol, where was that confirmed
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You could almost confirm it looking at that acid-trip purple room designed to deflect attention away from the Hobbit, a freezing outdoor box used to warehouse children for days, weeks, and months at a time.
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I've read this book.
It's really deeply frightening.The people's right to change what does not work is one of the greatest
principles in our system of government
--Richard M. Nixon
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Post a review on Amazon... the book has 5 stars and no bad reviews, no reviews even mention the WWASP problems.
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I have to say that i was utterly contemptuous of the programmies that posted biased reviews of Maia's book i hardly feel it's appropriate to reduce myself to their level of propaganda
There's only one party on Capital Hill and it's the bipartisan spending party.
Tom Schatz, president of Citizens Against Government Waste
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I always wonder when I read how the "program saved lives", I wonder saved from what? Dids the girl have a disease ? Cancer maybe? Saved how?
Saved from beign a foolish teenager who would have made a comearound eventually anyway without the trauma and nasty exoerience the program provides for a very high price.Not monetary.
Pleae please please find a new choice of words. Saved lives is a lie only those who need the lie believe..
I'm happy for you that you're home and safe.
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The most depressing bit about this is that this poor girl, this unfortunate victim of abuse is utterly convinced that the program helped her and everything she went through was jusified.
I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religion than it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
--Albert Einstein, German-born American physicist
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The program saves our lives from what they would have become. No, we didn't have life threatening diseases before the program; we did however make life threatening choices. It's true what you say, I?m sure many of those who claim the program "saved their lives" would have eventually snapped out of the pattern of life we were living before the program, the problem is that so many poor choices are made until we "snap out" of it that our lives can be ruined. For example, before I was sent to the program I was a high school drop out, before dropping out I maintained a 1.9 gpa, I was regularly using drugs, selling drugs, and participating in several activities that would have put me in prison for year had I been caught. I was 17 when I was sent to the program, and my life had been violently spinning out of control since I was 13, I'm sure eventually I would have gotten over it, maybe after some serious prison time, or maybe even just a few short years later. The problem is I still would have been a high school drop out with no real future! Thankfully my parents intervened and sent me to the program, I graduated after 11 months and made my way back out into the world, the future is certainly brighter for me today, and I owe much of that to the program, which I graduated 6 years ago. I'm a senior in college now, maintaining a 4.0 gpa, and I will be attending an Ivy league graduate program in the fall. My plans for the future are promising and exciting, so much different than what they would have been just a few short years ago before the program. Don't bother arguing with, or criticizing my post boys, after all life certainly is based on results, you can call it program jargon if you want, but it's the absolute truth, look at bill gates, Donald trump, or even Oprah, i'm sure they would agree it's results that matter more than anything. You can come on here and rant and rave about how the program is abusive, and how you were mistreated while you were there, but then we look at the lives of the countless teens like myself who?s lives were literally saved in these programs and we are faced with a choice, believe those who claim abuse, or those who are thriving in life and grateful for the time in the program, sorry boys and girls but our voices, examples and results are and always will be louder and stronger than a few whiney voices claiming that the programs don't work!
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Either a troll or bullshit.
I'm going to guess... both.
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hey anon, my email is mightyaardvark@gmail.com
I would just love to find out your experiences in these programs, to find out where you are now and what you're up to. I mean my research is nothing if it's not even handed.
Email me if you really wanna tell your side of the story. The Roman Catholic Church had a policy of burning all pre-Columbian information as pagan.
Wiki
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Just spoiled brats who think their minor teenage antics amount to a death defying experience. Their rich parents pay to have them forcibly brainwashed to learn this. Obviously some minds are more accessible than some. You are just seeing the result of brainwashing, and how effective it can be on some people.
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Results are everything?
That depends on the results.
One of the great problems with our society is that it seems to reward behavior and attidutes that we specifically teach our children to be wrong. Very often, greedy, selfish, people who have no moral compunctions against the exploitation of others to obtain fame and wealth for themselves are rewarded. They are 'successful.'
People with compassion, a sense of fairness and justice, a sense of service to others who wish to make a positive difference in the world are often excluded from positions of wealth and power because they are not willing to make the kinds of choices needed to aquire this kind of success.
Having worked in the corporate world for over 20 years , I can attest to difficulties confronting ordinary people when they are required to make decisions where the bottom line over rules common decency and basic values. People often rationalize to defend decisions that advance their careers at the expense of acting in a way they know to be right.
Maybe programs achieve results, maybe they don't and we have seen many threads and arguments surrounding the efficicacy issue without any convincing outcome for either side. So I will not argue whether or not programs achieve the results you claim.
Instead, I will hope that as you go through life, you will come to understand that results are not as important as you think.
As an employer, I once attended a training seminar in which they taught that managers should not be judged as much on the results of their decisions as they should be judged on the method by which the decisions were made. Results are tricky things because there are so many factors beyond our control.
It has often been said that, "The ends does not justify the means." No where is this more revelant or important than in considering these programs. The rationalization that these programs are the 'last resort' does not fly. That argument is nothing but an excuse. Torture is not justified by saying it works. Torture is not justified by saying nothing else worked and there was no other option. Torture is never an option.
It is never acceptable to treat human beings the way they are treated in these programs. The results are not important. Kidnapping are programming are not acceptable methods; not even if the intention is to save someone's life.
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I forgot to log in. That last post was mine.
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On 2006-05-20 09:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The program saves our lives from what they would have become. No, we didn't have life threatening diseases before the program; we did however make life threatening choices. It's true what you say, I?m sure many of those who claim the program "saved their lives" would have eventually snapped out of the pattern of life we were living before the program, the problem is that so many poor choices are made until we "snap out" of it that our lives can be ruined. For example, before I was sent to the program I was a high school drop out, before dropping out I maintained a 1.9 gpa, I was regularly using drugs, selling drugs, and participating in several activities that would have put me in prison for year had I been caught. I was 17 when I was sent to the program, and my life had been violently spinning out of control since I was 13, I'm sure eventually I would have gotten over it, maybe after some serious prison time, or maybe even just a few short years later. The problem is I still would have been a high school drop out with no real future! Thankfully my parents intervened and sent me to the program, I graduated after 11 months and made my way back out into the world, the future is certainly brighter for me today, and I owe much of that to the program, which I graduated 6 years ago. I'm a senior in college now, maintaining a 4.0 gpa, and I will be attending an Ivy league graduate program in the fall. My plans for the future are promising and exciting, so much different than what they would have been just a few short years ago before the program. Don't bother arguing with, or criticizing my post boys, after all life certainly is based on results, you can call it program jargon if you want, but it's the absolute truth, look at bill gates, Donald trump, or even Oprah, i'm sure they would agree it's results that matter more than anything. You can come on here and rant and rave about how the program is abusive, and how you were mistreated while you were there, but then we look at the lives of the countless teens like myself who?s lives were literally saved in these programs and we are faced with a choice, believe those who claim abuse, or those who are thriving in life and grateful for the time in the program, sorry boys and girls but our voices, examples and results are and always will be louder and stronger than a few whiney voices claiming that the programs don't work!"
This is nothing more than a WWASP professional marketer. For parents new to this, it is called a TROLL. There are some telltale signs of this. This person refuses to engage in any debate about ethics or practices. Their arguement is that the ends justifies the means.
THE LOUDEST WHINEY VOICE CLAIMING THE PROGRAM DOESN'T WORK IS THE US GOVERNMENT IN THE SURGEON GENERALS REPORT. The WWASPS justify the use a torture such as chemical spraying on a daily basis, isolation for up to 18 months a time, dislocated shoulders, subjection to brainwashing techniques, and other tortures unaccepted by the civilized world as appropriate treatment. So if you want to hurt your child, and get even with him for giving you a hard time their is no better program than a WWASP program.
For some peculiar reason I think that Oprah, Gates and Trump would find it offensive to have their names used to support child torture.[ This Message was edited by: on 2006-05-20 14:51 ][ This Message was edited by: Badpuppy on 2006-05-20 15:22 ]
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There are some other key pieces to help identify a troll, namely their ignorance and inability to properly use the English language. The poster said "who's" instead of "whose", can't capitalize properly, and the run-ons and punctuation are horrendous. A college grad would proofread and spellcheck, but a WWASP Utah hick remains uneducated and embarrasses their institution on a regular basis when he/she attempts to engage in simple communication. No way this idiot really has a 4.0. Also, they're anonymous as usual. Classic trolling.
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Guess what little sister,
The results I saw was a dislocated shoulder. A lack of education. A traumatized kid from who the hell knows why. Too ashamed to share.
Fuck off. Save your bullshit for people who dont know the real truth about your sick program.
Someday a day of accountability will come.
Get a life.
(I hate that phony ass word)
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You know I'm reluctant to dismiss these people simply as trolls. I'd hope that by engaging them in argument asn debate we could actually settle an issue, possibly bring some people over to our way of thinking. Perhaps this person genuinely does believe that the outcome justifies the means, which is a difficult viewpoint to sympathise withbut you can't say it's not a valid one. In light of that viewpoit i'd like to ask the poster this...
research indicates that out of those who graduate the programs (roughly forty percent overall by WWASPS own figures) twenty percent will either return to their problem behaviour, or develop new problem behviours within one year. Seventy percent will develop news behaviours or return to their problem behaviours (usually drug use) within fifteen years.
So what I'm saying here is that the best research we've got indicates that in the long run WWASPS is only effective in 4 percent of cases.
Now if we look at another set of data we get a very interesting image thrown up.
by their own admission, only roughly twenty percent of students have diagnosable mental problems when they enter a WWASPS insitution.
The remainder could simply be considered "difficult" kids
Of those twenty percent none at all have ever reported a significant attenuation of the symptoms of their disorder. Kids with mental problems were often simply cracked down on harder. Of those students I have interviewd approximately half have been diagnosed with additional traumatic disorders subsequent to leaving the program.
Of the remaining eighty percent, approximately five percent manifest psychological problems while still inside the program. Usually this is PTSD, parasuicidal behaviour, or depression.
Twenty percent display symptoms of psychological disorder within five years and sixty percent display symptoms within fifteen years.
SO what I want this anon to tell me is this, precisely what outcome is he saying justifies the means to get it.
Is he referring to the ninety six percent failure rate, the emotional damage inflicted on eighty percent of participants or the stupendous amounts of money these monsters make by using brutality and cruelty to enforce parental control.
That is the only things these places do, they impose parental control at the cost of emotional destruction.
does that end justify the means used?
It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was
made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions.
There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to
govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be
masters.
--Daniel Webster
[ This Message was edited by: MightyAardvark on 2006-05-21 10:40 ]
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Hey boys, it's me again the so called "troll". To the moron who critized me saying that my use of who's rather than whose somehow suggest that I am lieing about my GPA, I'm not even going to bother to argue that, all I will say is that your ignorance is frightening. To everyone else, first off I will say that I don't in anway work for WWASP or anyone affilitated with that program, as I previously stated I am simply a program graduate, and feel strongly indebted to the program for how much it helped me in my life. I understand that many of you do not agree with me, I will simply agree to disagree, all I can say is that in all my time in the program I NEVER, not even once, saw anything that I would in anyway consider abusive. Aardvark, where did you get these so called statistics that you are quoting? I'm curious who conducted the research if it even exists, if the research does in fact exist I wonder what kind of methods they used to conduct it, such as sample sizes and so on. I would love to tell you story aardvark, if you have yahoo msn messenger i'd enjoy chatting sometime. As for the rest of the attacks on my post, once again I will say results are everything, they are undeniable, and my results speak much much louder than whiney, angry, hateful, and in my opinion completely false cries of mistreatment and abuse!!!!!!
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As for the rest of the attacks on my post, once again I will say results are everything, they are undeniable, and my results speak much much louder than whiney, angry, hateful, and in my opinion completely false cries of mistreatment and abuse!!!!!!
There are anti-wwasp and anti-SCL groups over at myspace with hundreds, and now over thousands of members. There is one pro-wwasp group with about 30 members, some of which never even attended a program. You are but one voice in a sea and the current is flowing against you, hard. Free your mind, it's a wonderful think.
Several students have confirmed that current staff and former staff use hard drugs such as meth. What a wonderful place for a child. :roll:
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On 2006-05-21 16:29:00, proudgrad wrote:
"Hey boys, it's me again the so called "troll". To the moron who critized me saying that my use of who's rather than whose somehow suggest that I am lieing about my GPA, I'm not even going to bother to argue that, all I will say is that your ignorance is frightening. To everyone else, first off I will say that I don't in anway work for WWASP or anyone affilitated with that program, as I previously stated I am simply a program graduate, and feel strongly indebted to the program for how much it helped me in my life. I understand that many of you do not agree with me, I will simply agree to disagree, all I can say is that in all my time in the program I NEVER, not even once, saw anything that I would in anyway consider abusive. Aardvark, where did you get these so called statistics that you are quoting? I'm curious who conducted the research if it even exists, if the research does in fact exist I wonder what kind of methods they used to conduct it, such as sample sizes and so on. I would love to tell you story aardvark, if you have yahoo msn messenger i'd enjoy chatting sometime. As for the rest of the attacks on my post, once again I will say results are everything, they are undeniable, and my results speak much much louder than whiney, angry, hateful, and in my opinion completely false cries of mistreatment and abuse!!!!!!"
Sociopaths absolutely agree with you. Just like you, they have no concern for how they acheive their results. Results are everything to them. If you went to a college you need a tuition refund. Your program uses troubled kids to discipline other troubled kids in a way that prolongs incarceration. There is no prison in the nation that gives inmates that kind of power. Your program transfers kids to Tranquility Bay thereby endorsing its methods of discipline. The owner admits to making a girl lie on her face for 18 months. He admits to pepper spraying kids daily for months at time. The owner doesn't feel that it is abusive for staff members to have sex with their residents. He is so sociopathic he obviously doesn't think it is wrong to use methods unaccepted by the civilized world to get results.
You are a troll. Your not going into any Ivy League program and the only school you could have a 4.0 grade point average gives mail order diplomas. The only reason you even answered these posts is to get aardvark to reveal as much as he can about his research.
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It's "lying", not "lieing".
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Believe it or not, they don't.
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mightyaardvark@yahoo.com
come find me.
for it is a truth, which the experience of all ages has attested, that the people are commonly most in danger when the means of insuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion.
--Alexander Hamilton
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To the people who say that results are everything, I would say, yeah-- but there are *no* studies that show that WWASP gets results. Satisfaction surveys are not studies.
And anecdotes are not evidence-- unless you do a controlled trial which compares people who are sent to WWASP v. people who are left alone or given an alternative form of treatment, you cannot know that something works.
Lots of cancer treatments look like they work if you just go by anecdotes-- but once you do a controlled trial, they fail miserably.
it doesn't matter what you believe about your own experience-- if you don't have an identical twin who wasn't treated (and even then, that sample size is too small), you can't tell what worked. most likely, you just grew up.
and, the idea that "troubled teens" are likely to die without WWASP is demonstrably false. There are roughly 40 million teenagers in America-- the surgeon general estimates that about 4 million of them are 'troubled'-- ie, serious drug problem or behavior problems or mental illness.
Fewer than 20,000 teens die every year. Even if all of those deaths were from risky behavior (which they aren't-- some are from cancer and unavoidable, non-alcohol or drug-related car accidents) and even if the deaths only occurred amongst the "at risk' 4 million, that's still a risk per year of death of only 4 in 1000 per year.
And even heroin addicts who shoot up every day only have a single digit per year (usually 1-4%) death risk-- so unless you were shooting up, your risky behavior was probably far less risky than you think. Sure, not a good idea to ride with drunk drivers and hang out with meth addicts-- but unless you were hanging out in inner city neighborhoods with violent drug dealers (not slacker deadheads selling pot or even coke or meth to suburban kids), your actual risk of death was exaggerated by the program and by your parents.
my guess is the number of truly poor kids who were at genuine risk who were sent to WWASP can be counted on one finger or less.
if you want to talk about results, you have to produce real data: controlled clinical trials (plural) published in peer reviewed journals. nothing else meets modern standards of evidence.
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On 2006-05-21 16:29:00, proudgrad wrote:
"Hey boys, it's me again the so called "troll". To the moron who critized me saying that my use of who's rather than whose somehow suggest that I am lieing about my GPA, I'm not even going to bother to argue that, all I will say is that your ignorance is frightening.
"lieing" LOL! No way in hell you're going to an Ivy League school. You are an idiot and a troll.
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I'd be glad to send you my acceptance letter, as well as my transcript, but i highly don't that it would be worth my time being that you are all the scum of the earth
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On 2006-05-22 21:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'd be glad to send you my acceptance letter, as well as my transcript, but i highly don't that it would be worth my time being that you are all the scum of the earth"
"I highly DON'T that it would be worth my time"
You're too easy, dumb ass. Troll.
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I believe it depends on how much the parents put into it. The kids that have the parents that send their kids there to get them off their back and out of their lives have a less chance. Not to mention the kids that are left there way way to long. J M O
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so to those who critize my spelling, is that all you've got, sounds to me like you're saying, "well you're right, so all we can do is attack you spelling." As far as me being a troll, I guess in some sense of the word you are correct, the only reason I even come on hear is to get you guys all riled up, it's so easy. It's somewhat amusing to read your ignorant pathetic responses. Face it you aren't making any difference, and you most likely never will!
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On 2006-05-23 11:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"so to those who critize my spelling, is that all you've got, sounds to me like you're saying, "well you're right, so all we can do is attack you spelling." As far as me being a troll, I guess in some sense of the word you are correct, the only reason I even come on hear is to get you guys all riled up, it's so easy. It's somewhat amusing to read your ignorant pathetic responses. Face it you aren't making any difference, and you most likely never will!"
Come on guys. Whose pulling the joke? Own up now. This person is such an embarrassment to English composition and grammar that this has to be a deliberate proccess of dumbing down. Her writing is almost like a language never heard on earth. Apparantly she doesn't have the reasoning ability of spinach. Why advertise your product with a person who had such a poor outcome?
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Frankly how we can criticise the anonymous poster's behaviour while she is being ripped apart for some pretty minor issues is laughable. We win this one when we make it a debate purely on the issues. It's demeans us and the issues we represent when we descend into playground name calling.
I am married, not Buried !
-- Steve Webb
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To argue the point, the poster claims that complaints and testimonials don't make a difference. Seven abusive WWASP programs have been closed due to numerous complaints per facility that span over more than a decade. We do make a difference.
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On 2006-05-23 13:46:00, MightyAardvark wrote:
"Frankly how we can criticise the anonymous poster's behaviour while she is being ripped apart for some pretty minor issues is laughable. We win this one when we make it a debate purely on the issues. It's demeans us and the issues we represent when we descend into playground name calling.I am married, not Buried !
-- Steve Webb
"
This person destroyed her credability by claiming to be something she clearly was not. She held herself out as an example of success. And although spelling mistakes are made by every person on this board, her grammatical construction is quite fair to attack because it is evidence that this person would have trouble passing freshman English Comp. Therefor she is an example of person who promotes two products rife with fraud and deceit, both the WWASPS and herself. She set herself up for these attacks and they are quite fair because she claims to a paragon virtue, but in actuality is everything a parent should not want their kids to be, a phony, ignorant, a shill for amorality, and without emphathy or compassion for those who cannot speak and carry the wounds of their imprisonment forever.
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you know, having spoke to this individual at some length I'm now finding myself regretting having stuck my neck on on his behalf.
If he is in fact a product of Spring Creek Lodge he's a pretty damn good warning about what happens to kids there.
The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor
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the only reason I even come on hear is to get you guys all riled up, it's so easy.
BEFORE YOU RESPOND READ THIS QUOTE CAREFULLY
This troll only comes hear (sic) to get attention. It's a sad and pathetic fact individuals cannot receive the attention they need in real life, and so they seek it online. I don't understand it, but it is a fact of life in these forums. Do not respond to someone if you think they are just trying to rile you up. They WANT you to respond all angry, that is what they are going after.
Besides that, this person is lying. Like BadPuppy said, they discredit themselves in the first paragraph. They cannot spell the simplest of words. It's extremely pathetic.