Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Truth Searcher on April 27, 2006, 04:50:00 PM
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I just wanted to offer an update of sorts ... not that anyone really remembers me or my daughters situation ... but more for my own benefit. Our daughter returned home from a TBS about a year ago. I was sold on this place. I firmly believed that it was where she needed to be. But, in the months since her return, she has really began to open up about her experience. My "beliefs" began to change ...
It (the program) was not always what the brochures and website led us to believe. "Duhhh" you say ...
I just wish to say that I have come to appreciate what you all do in terms of advocacy. While I think that your anger sometimes overpowers your message ... I do agree with what you are trying to say on most levels.
So with hat in hand, I say that I understand your anger and your zealousness in attacking this industry.
In hindsight (which I know is 20/20 vision) I wish I had not sent my daughter to such a facility ... and hers was mild in comparison with what some of you have experienced.
I am thankful that she is alive. I am thankful that she is not drug addicted, or pregnant, or carrying a deadly disease. I am thankful that we have been able to pick up the pieces and move forward.
I had a couple come to me a few weeks ago - at the end of their rope with their out of control teen. They wanted to send him to a TBS. I strongly discouraged them from doing so. I shared my reasons why. I just want the powers that be at Fornits to know, that you were instrumental in challenging my thinking.
Thank you.
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Uh, why not tell us WHAT PLACE IT WAS SO WE CAN WARN OTHERS? :roll:
Its STILL NOT ABOUT YOU!!! Its about your child, the fact that that program did NOTHING to help her or prevent her from being "drug addicted, or pregnant, or carrying a deadly disease", nor is this forum about you getting over your guilt and feeling better about it by making a useless admittion to us.
The programs make it about your feelings and your beliefs to make it good for *YOU*. WE are here to make it about saving them from being tortured and fucked up by people who fell for it (you) or people selling these programs to gullable parents.
If you actually want to do some good, why not tell us what place it was, and what they did specifically, and the names of people you know, so that we have FACTS and PROOF and telling people to avoid that place in particular, those people who are at that place, and to avoid warning signs that place exhibited.
Wow, you snapped out of it. Heres a cookie: you're now on the level of MOST NORMAL AND SANE PEOPLE ON EARTH. Feel better? Great. Why not actually do something tangible about it instead of "get it off your chest" like we're your damn support group?
Didnt you have plenty of time to commiserate with other program parents while your kid was busy being fucked with in the head? Yanno, being treated 24/7 by lots of people the way you are being treated now by me? Dont you want to stop anyone else from suffering from this?
Thats what hurts people so bad. Not a sepecific, theatrical/dramatic bad sounding thing like pepper spray or metal brushes to their gonads, not O.P., its being day in and day out ripped apart, and periodic LGAT seminars that are much more intense verisons of this, having no friends, nobody to rely on, no trust, no love, no affection, no pleasure of any sort that the program doesnt dole out and consider a 'priviladge', and her own parents turned against her.
It is just as bad as every other progarm, but it doesnt have stuff that the average idiot would consider 'worse'.
At least you bothered to register an account. :roll:[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2006-04-27 14:13 ]
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Nihal ...
See... now here is a perfect example of what I mean ... your hostility is a bit overwhelming. Honestly, you would do alot more in advancing your cause with a little diplomacy.
Ummm ... I don't believe I ever claimed that this experience was about me ... in fact, what I was trying to communicate was that I came to see things from her perspective. And that your site was instrumental in educating me to the "other side of the coin".
Really no need to get your shorts in a knot ...[ This Message was edited by: Truth Searcher on 2006-04-27 14:24 ]
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On 2006-04-27 14:11:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"Uh, why not tell us WHAT PLACE IT WAS SO WE CAN WARN OTHERS? :roll:
Its STILL NOT ABOUT YOU!!! Its about your child, the fact that that program did NOTHING to help her or prevent her from being "drug addicted, or pregnant, or carrying a deadly disease", nor is this forum about you getting over your guilt and feeling better about it by making a useless admittion to us.
The programs make it about your feelings and your beliefs to make it good for *YOU*. WE are here to make it about saving them from being tortured and fucked up by people who fell for it (you) or people selling these programs to gullable parents.
If you actually want to do some good, why not tell us what place it was, and what they did specifically, and the names of people you know, so that we have FACTS and PROOF and telling people to avoid that place in particular, those people who are at that place, and to avoid warning signs that place exhibited.
Wow, you snapped out of it. Heres a cookie: you're now on the level of MOST NORMAL AND SANE PEOPLE ON EARTH. Feel better? Great. Why not actually do something tangible about it instead of "get it off your chest" like we're your damn support group?
Didnt you have plenty of time to commiserate with other program parents while your kid was busy being fucked with in the head? Yanno, being treated 24/7 by lots of people the way you are being treated now by me? Dont you want to stop anyone else from suffering from this?
Thats what hurts people so bad. Not a sepecific, theatrical/dramatic bad sounding thing like pepper spray or metal brushes to their gonads, not O.P., its being day in and day out ripped apart, and periodic LGAT seminars that are much more intense verisons of this, having no friends, nobody to rely on, no trust, no love, no affection, no pleasure of any sort that the program doesnt dole out and consider a 'priviladge', and her own parents turned against her.
It is just as bad as every other progarm, but it doesnt have stuff that the average idiot would consider 'worse'.
At least you bothered to register an account. :roll:[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2006-04-27 14:13 ]"
Nihil ,Back off, almost all the people here are just getting things off their chest, they owe you nothing. You have no idea what it is like to be on either end, you have never been involved with these places yourself.
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On 2006-04-27 14:23:00, Truth Searcher wrote:
"Nihal ...
See... now here is a perfect example of what I mean ... your hostility is a bit overwhelming. Honestly, you would do alot more in advancing your cause with a little diplomacy.
Ummm ... I don't believe I ever claimed that this experience was about me ... in fact, what I was trying to communicate was that I came to see things from her perspective. And that your site was instrumental in educating me to the "other side of the coin".
Really no need to get your shorts in a knot ...[ This Message was edited by: Truth Searcher on 2006-04-27 14:24 ]"
Nihil, I want you to sit back and listen and learn something.
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Dear Truth Searcher,
Not all of us are like N. N, lay off......take a chill pill, or get your ass off the computer and go for a jog........something to get your aggression out.
On the other hand, N is a no nonsense kind a guy, and he obviously doesn't believe in sugar coating things. There were some great points that he made, and had he been able to say it in a little different way, then he would've gotten what it was that he was in search of.
Now, I am going to ask you.....What TBS did your daughter go to? What happened? Why do you feel diffrently now? How do you feel that they specifically deceived you? Feeling as strongly as you do now, you have a duty to warn other parents out there. If you choose not to, then you aren't doing anything but coming here to make some kind of confession to us. What's the point of that? The only way to bring about change in this industry is to take action.
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And....
how is your daughter? Did she ever move back home? Was it difficult to talk about her experience? What convinced you that it hadn't been helpgul?
Thanks for the update.
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I don't get it. It takes a lot for Truth Searcher to come here and admit a mistake. Do you know how many parents still assert 20 years later that X program saved their kids' lives? Even as their children, now adults, suffer from all types of hidden (and not so hidden) scars?
Why attack her? She ALREADY said she was able to warn one family to think twice. And the truth is, while anger can be a driving force, it can overwhelm the message if you sound like a fucking lunatic. I'll save that for the Ottawas, who blatantly ignore program abuses, and celebrate the programs while simultaneously overlooking the loooooong list of SPECIFIC abuses we suffered.
Truth Searcher is exactly the kind of advocate we need. She understands the perspective of desperation that leads to bad choices and had the humility and grace to recognize her mistake.
And the truth is: these schools manipulate the hell out of our parents. They have it down pat. Exactly what to say to inspire fear if you even consider pulling your child out. Parents trust them to be experts.
My parents thought CEDU would be a REAL academic environment (not even close) with accredited therapists, with supportive group therapy. It was a place in the mountains in a bucolic setting. They had no CLUE what was going on. It was recommended by pastors/therapists. I WANTED help.
When my Dad got cold feet, the school told him I was a Coke Head which was a blatant lie--I wasn't even there for drugs! THey told him if he showed any weakness I'd be in jail or dead.... Because we were mointored and isolated it was easy to mainatin that... they also told my parents I was lying if I said otherwise... More BS! I didn't even go there for lying! I was the kid who left notes when I snuck out and never lied to a direct question. (I might for example try and say I was going to a slumber parrt, but if my Dad said You're not really going to a slumber party are you? I would say, you're right I'm not.)
CEDU made a liar out of me, a liar out of parents, and we won't even discuss their end of it!
So please, I think Former Program Mom has a lot to offer here in her own way. If she can warn others to rethink their choices and research carefully, that in itself has real value.
When I had my student yanked out of my school to be sent to some whacked out religious cult with JC in it's mission statement, I didn't have a leg to stand on with the parents. (Frankly, it was risky for me to even say what I said.) But if they heard from another Mom who sent their kid there, with the same Christian values, they may have been more receptive.
We need all the help we can get.
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Thank you so much for letting us know that, truthseeker. That makes it all worth-while.
:tup:
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On 2006-04-27 14:23:00, Truth Searcher wrote:
"Nihal ...
See... now here is a perfect example of what I mean ... your hostility is a bit overwhelming. Honestly, you would do alot more in advancing your cause with a little diplomacy.
Ummm ... I don't believe I ever claimed that this experience was about me ... in fact, what I was trying to communicate was that I came to see things from her perspective. And that your site was instrumental in educating me to the "other side of the coin".
Really no need to get your shorts in a knot ...[ This Message was edited by: Truth Searcher on 2006-04-27 14:24 ]"
Right. Youve posted here so you can feel better, but you still aren't actually helping anyone! You havent said which program, or anyone who works there. Why havent you yet?
BTW, the reason Im like this is Im sick of the stupid double standard. Everyone can be hard on the kids, but nobody can take their own medicine. Im sick of everyone getting a pat on the back for admitting they were wrong, and all the PARENTS get everything SOOOOooooooooooo sugar coated, but it was never like that for your kid. Maybe now after the fact, sure, yeah, but you definitely cant take what you previously dished out.
... and you still havent said what program, or who worked there, or any specifics at all...
which leads me to think youre trolling :wstupid:
Thanks... try the roast beef!
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On 2006-04-27 18:40:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
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On 2006-04-27 14:23:00, Truth Searcher wrote:
"Nihal ...
See... now here is a perfect example of what I mean ... your hostility is a bit overwhelming. Honestly, you would do alot more in advancing your cause with a little diplomacy.
Ummm ... I don't believe I ever claimed that this experience was about me ... in fact, what I was trying to communicate was that I came to see things from her perspective. And that your site was instrumental in educating me to the "other side of the coin".
Really no need to get your shorts in a knot ...[ This Message was edited by: Truth Searcher on 2006-04-27 14:24 ]"
Right. Youve posted here so you can feel better, but you still aren't actually helping anyone! You havent said which program, or anyone who works there. Why havent you yet?
BTW, the reason Im like this is Im sick of the stupid double standard. Everyone can be hard on the kids, but nobody can take their own medicine. Im sick of everyone getting a pat on the back for admitting they were wrong, and all the PARENTS get everything SOOOOooooooooooo sugar coated, but it was never like that for your kid. Maybe now after the fact, sure, yeah, but you definitely cant take what you previously dished out.
... and you still havent said what program, or who worked there, or any specifics at all...
which leads me to think youre trolling :wstupid:
Thanks... try the roast beef!"
You havent read much around here, you really think the kids get beat up more than the parents on Formits? Do you just log-in, post and leave?
Nihils, you havent been reading at all or listening, what value have you added to this site? Give me a link, I'll read it!!!
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Nihils, you havent been reading at all or listening, what value have you added to this site? Give me a link, I'll read it!!!
http://www.askquestions.org/articles/teens/ (http://www.askquestions.org/articles/teens/)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=7573&forum=9 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=7573&forum=9)
And a few things Im not at liberty to share :grin:
Still, regardless, why not DO SOMETHIGN TO HELP instead of being an attention whore for consolation after admitting you fucked up? You dont do that for the attention and for the personal release of responsibility and getting "awww that must be so hard" crap, its to make the OTHER person feel better, and to make good on it.
Shes helped nobody, shes done nothing but talk get attention from it. 50+ posts and wont say what program or any people involved? Shes done nothing to prevent anyone else from being hurt by those same people, or gotten justice for her kid for what they did to her.
I honestly think its just someone who wants attention, and doesnt even have a kid. Even if it IS a program parent, its about time to actually DO SOMETHING!!
Another thing. As HORRIBLE as this must be over the FUCKING INTERNET THAT SHE CAN WALK AWAY FROM, IGNORE, CLOSE THE WINDOW, OR WHATEVER, imagine if I was in her face doing this, with 20 of my best buddies doing the same thing, and she cant run away, or walk away, or turn it off. She doesnt have people speaking up for her - everyones turned against her, even her own mother. And it lasts all day. And its daily, for months, maybe years.
BOO FUCKING HOO.
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On 2006-04-27 18:59:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"Nihils, you havent been reading at all or listening, what value have you added to this site? Give me a link, I'll read it!!!
http://www.askquestions.org/articles/teens/ (http://www.askquestions.org/articles/teens/)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=7573&forum=9 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=7573&forum=9)
And a few things Im not at liberty to share :grin:
Still, regardless, why not DO SOMETHIGN TO HELP instead of being an attention whore for consolation after admitting you fucked up? You dont do that for the attention and for the personal release of responsibility and getting "awww that must be so hard" crap, its to make the OTHER person feel better, and to make good on it.
Shes helped nobody, shes done nothing but talk get attention from it. 50+ posts and wont say what program or any people involved? Shes done nothing to prevent anyone else from being hurt by those same people, or gotten justice for her kid for what they did to her.
I honestly think its just someone who wants attention, and doesnt even have a kid. Even if it IS a program parent, its about time to actually DO SOMETHING!!
Another thing. As HORRIBLE as this must be over the FUCKING INTERNET THAT SHE CAN WALK AWAY FROM, IGNORE, CLOSE THE WINDOW, OR WHATEVER, imagine if I was in her face doing this, with 20 of my best buddies doing the same thing, and she cant run away, or walk away, or turn it off. She doesnt have people speaking up for her - everyones turned against her, even her own mother. And it lasts all day. And its daily, for months, maybe years.
BOO FUCKING HOO."
So you:
1. Asked a Question and
2. Started a thread
3. are very angry at parents.
I still think based on your response that you do not read much, I think you post and leave and maybe feel better after dumping. People take baby steps sometimes, let the info come out naturally, why force people? Why be so cruel
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I still think based on your response that you do not read much, I think you post and leave and maybe feel better after dumping. People take baby steps sometimes, let the info come out naturally, why force people? Why be so cruel
I think you
- Need to stop doing a bad Dr. Phil impression
- Need to know that I've already answered your stupid questions
- Need to support constructive actions, not flame me behind anonymity
- Stop ENABLING (to use one of your terms) an attention whore. Whether its an actual program parent, or just a troll (which I really, really think it is...) it does nothing to just keep lavishing on "oh you poor thing omg youre so brave" when the only person who was brave or did any suffering was the kid who got fucked up for a year or more with mommy helping them out.
Again, if THIS IS "cruel" just imagine how fucking awful it must be to have this in person, 24 hours a fucking day. Nobodys saying anything for the kid, nobodys doing anything for the kid, just this poster with some fucked up twist on Munchausen's syndrome.[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2006-04-27 19:19 ]
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I just wanted to offer an update of sorts ... not that anyone really remembers me or my daughters situation ... but more for my own benefit. Our daughter returned home from a TBS about a year ago. I was sold on this place. I firmly believed that it was where she needed to be. But, in the months since her return, she has really began to open up about her experience. My "beliefs" began to change ...
It (the program) was not always what the brochures and website led us to believe. "Duhhh" you say ...
I just wish to say that I have come to appreciate what you all do in terms of advocacy. While I think that your anger sometimes overpowers your message ... I do agree with what you are trying to say on most levels.
So with hat in hand, I say that I understand your anger and your zealousness in attacking this industry.
In hindsight (which I know is 20/20 vision) I wish I had not sent my daughter to such a facility ... and hers was mild in comparison with what some of you have experienced.
I am thankful that she is alive. I am thankful that she is not drug addicted, or pregnant, or carrying a deadly disease. I am thankful that we have been able to pick up the pieces and move forward.
I had a couple come to me a few weeks ago - at the end of their rope with their out of control teen. They wanted to send him to a TBS. I strongly discouraged them from doing so. I shared my reasons why. I just want the powers that be at Fornits to know, that you were instrumental in challenging my thinking.
Thank you.
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Nihils, I repeat, read !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Munchausen's syndrome??
What is your problem? You log in write something and leave, engage in the conversation !!! You did not answer squat !!!! You dont know what it is like to be a parent with that type of dicsion to make, you do not know what it is like to be a child in a program. You are angry and decided to take it out here, why not chose a canine abuse forum , spca !!!
What is your point ???? You have no idea what you are talking about and what it feels like, dont pretend and try to get mad for other people, it wont work.
Try saving the whales !!!! (but read up first)
People like you are ignorant
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Uh, what do you mean I didnt answer squat? I showed some of what Ive done to help things.
Also, I DONT CARE ABOUT WHAT ITS LIKE "FOR THE PARENT". I said so ALREADY. Its NOT ABOUT THE DAMNED PARENT. Its not about the parent having a pity party or any other outlet to get attention from everyone, oh poor me I gotta send my kid away, its soooo hard, I want attention. Oh poor me, I sent my kid away, it was the wrong thing to do, Im so sorry, eveyone give me a hug.
Yeah, I dont know how "hard" it is to give in to some hukster telling me to give over my flesh and blood to strangers in some fishy, culty 'treatment' and not speak to my own offspring for months and buy into that crap. No, I havent personally experienced what its like to be a kid in a program. Neither has that mom.
But as defensive as all you stupid attention whore sissy parents are, and as bad as this watered down, one guy vs you flamewar must be on the internet, imagine this in person. Except Im standing over you, screaming at you, shoving you around, threatening you, and scaring the shit out of you - but you cant leave, cant escape, nobodys helping you, everyone is either terrified and watching or helping ME out.
I honestly can't believe you all are still like this AFTER your kids out. Stop attention whoring! Tell us the damn program! Tell us the people who run it and who actually abused the kid! Stop being a bunch of ninnies out to get MORE ATTENTION because you sent your kid to a program when before you wanted attention and support for having the kid IN the program.
BTW - Im not mad for other people. Im pissed off all by my own god damn self, ok? Im pissed at some stupid attention whoring sissy who cant take shit online but was party to some IN YOUR FACE, personal, physical shit WAY worse than this to a CHILD for a LONG time.
You can walk away. You can close the window. You can ignore it, or you can flame back. A kid cant do anything except make it worse, or participate in her own humiliation and suffering in hopes of making it be over soon. I honestly can not believe you people are going to drama-queen it the fuck up and turn it into an attentionwhore fest about how hard it must be for you to accept guilt.
Get over it, and grow up, at least as much as your child is. Try setting an example instead of just looking for another opportunity to play the victim.
If shes really sorry about what she did to her kid, maybe she should stop the people who hurt her kid from hurting others, and get justice for her child instead of just talking about how hard it is for her to admit she was wrong about it :rofl:
I also think that Truth Searcher is either just looking for attention, or is a troll, and doesnt even HAVE a kid, BTW.
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On 2006-04-27 19:48:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"Uh, what do you mean I didnt answer squat? I showed some of what Ive done to help things.
Also, I DONT CARE ABOUT WHAT ITS LIKE "FOR THE PARENT". I said so ALREADY. Its NOT ABOUT THE DAMNED PARENT. Its not about the parent having a pity party or any other outlet to get attention from everyone, oh poor me I gotta send my kid away, its soooo hard, I want attention. Oh poor me, I sent my kid away, it was the wrong thing to do, Im so sorry, eveyone give me a hug.
Yeah, I dont know how "hard" it is to give in to some hukster telling me to give over my flesh and blood to strangers in some fishy, culty 'treatment' and not speak to my own offspring for months and buy into that crap. No, I havent personally experienced what its like to be a kid in a program. Neither has that mom.
But as defensive as all you stupid attention whore sissy parents are, and as bad as this watered down, one guy vs you flamewar must be on the internet, imagine this in person. Except Im standing over you, screaming at you, shoving you around, threatening you, and scaring the shit out of you - but you cant leave, cant escape, nobodys helping you, everyone is either terrified and watching or helping ME out.
I honestly can't believe you all are still like this AFTER your kids out. Stop attention whoring! Tell us the damn program! Tell us the people who run it and who actually abused the kid! Stop being a bunch of ninnies out to get MORE ATTENTION because you sent your kid to a program when before you wanted attention and support for having the kid IN the program.
BTW - Im not mad for other people. Im pissed off all by my own god damn self, ok? Im pissed at some stupid attention whoring sissy who cant take shit online but was party to some IN YOUR FACE, personal, physical shit WAY worse than this to a CHILD for a LONG time.
You can walk away. You can close the window. You can ignore it, or you can flame back. A kid cant do anything except make it worse, or participate in her own humiliation and suffering in hopes of making it be over soon. I honestly can not believe you people are going to drama-queen it the fuck up and turn it into an attentionwhore fest about how hard it must be for you to accept guilt.
Get over it, and grow up, at least as much as your child is. Try setting an example instead of just looking for another opportunity to play the victim.
If shes really sorry about what she did to her kid, maybe she should stop the people who hurt her kid from hurting others, and get justice for her child instead of just talking about how hard it is for her to admit she was wrong about it :rofl:
I also think that Truth Searcher is either just looking for attention, or is a troll, and doesnt even HAVE a kid, BTW."
Please, just reread what you just wrote and then look at the first entry. No one is asking for pity, they are telling a story. This is what is needed on formits, why beat everyone up, let the person tell their story and get thru it? You are so full of hatred you are not sure who to yell at. You have no clue what that child went thru, she does !!! This in not about you, Nihils, and how pissed off you are. You are ding more harm tan good. This person can give us a lot of insight on what she did and how other parents can avoid her mistakes and you have to twist it around and make it about your personal anger, why deny these kids a chance to avoid a placement? All the parents are going to read here is how pissed you are. and why are you pissed, who the hell knows !!!!! you are not even a part of this !!!!! You are making it worse for these kids by deflecting the story onto yourself or your personal needs. Step aside and let people tell their stories, they have something to say, you do not. You had you chance, if you want to help even one child,
STOP WRITTING
LISTEN AND LEARN, its not about you or what you want
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If this Mom's daughter has been home a full year, then perhaps it may be time for this Mom to answer a few basis questions:
What program was your daughter enrolled in?
How does your daughter feel about the placement, now that she has had a year to reflect?
What made you begin to realize that the placement was NOT a valuable, or good experience?
Was your daughter abused at this facility?
These are some basic questions that should not be too difficult to answer after a full year has passed.
Thank you.
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How dense are you?
Shes not giving any fucking insight! Shes just saying "Im sorry". Shes given no facts, no people, no places, no names, no specifics. Nothing. Just trying to get even more attention from everyone here.
Shes not adding anything productive.
And its not about *YOUR* needs or *HER* needs, either! What its turning into is just another outlet for her wanting of attention, oh woe is me it was soo hard to come clean and admit it.
Spiffy. When she actually fucking adds something to this and actually provides some insight, Ill shut up.
BUT RIGHT NOW, GUESS WHAT? SHES JUST TALKING ABOUT *HER*!
WHAT PROGRAM? WHAT PEOPLE? WHERE IS IT? WHAT DID THEY DO?
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Niles has a point - and I for one, would much rather see these I'm-so-sorry-parents take out an ad in a major newspaper condemning the troubled teen industry for "duping" them into violating the civil and human rights of their own children then pat them on the back (or salute them) for their bravery in posting on Fornits.
Better yet, start a website to help build awareness or donate generously to those websites and discussion boards that are doing just that.
In other words - put your money where your mouth is. Write Congressman Miller and offer to testify before Congress. Write your own Congress reps and urge them to get off their butts and support Miller's bill.
Go to your local public and private high schools and educate the counselors, teachers, PTA members, about the troubled teen industry.
Buy a dozen HELP AT ANY COST books and send them to friends and relatives with a request that they send the book on to someone else (or donate it to their community of High School libraries).
Being sorry isn't enough when it comes to enabling people to physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually abuse your own children.
Do something to make sure other parents don't get the same chance (oops, I mean make the same mistake).
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Id just like to point out this thread is being used by someone at struggling teens to try to personally attack me, as I knew he would :roll:
See what I mean?
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Okay, I don't think I have ever come across this Truth Searcher person? Anyway, people have busy lives perhaps she hasn't made it back to the computer? If what you say is true about her posting around 50 times, and not giving us information that parents out there desperatly need.........then I will be right there with you, ripping that troller to shreds!
But, I am going to give her another day before I rush to any type of judgement. So, I guess we'll just see..........
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Wow. Honestly, my intention was NOT to stir up a hornets nest.
It is true that I have posted 50 times ... but if you look at the history, it has been over a long period of time. I am not a troll. I am not able to be at my computer 24/7 ... life is way toooo busy to allow that. With that said ... I have not been sent here by Lon Woodbury. In fact, I have an issue or two with his industry. I did not hire an EC, or an escort service.
My daughter attended Hope Ranch in Whitefish Montana. It is actually a very small, quite obscure program by comparison to some of the mega-schools. So I doubt that most of you have even heard of it. Yes, it is a Christian facility ... but before you roast me on that front ... understand that we are people of faith ... I refuse to defend that element. And I believe they are a good program ... as programs go.
Her program was not punitive. She never suffered the humiliations that come with many other disreputable programs. She was not starved, hit,beaten, restrained, etc.
She suffered more subtle difficulties. Homesickness. Loneliness. Disconnect from family. "Living in an artificial world" ... her quote. A feeling of powerlessness. A loss of a year of her life.
I see that now.
Nihal ... I am trying to do good ... I actually have many opportunities to share our experience with other families ... I work in the Health/Human services industry. I will reiterate one more time ... that I came here to tell this forum that these boards were instrumental in challenging my thinkingabout the entire industry. Trust me ... it would have been way easier to hang around Woodbury's site and reinforce our decision to place a child. But, I came here and endured your caustic comments and judgments ... because I really did desire to hear the other side. Furthermore ... I hear your message that this is not about me ... but I must say that at some lesser levels it is about me/us, our family, etc. If you think for one moment that I derived some perverse pleasure out of this whole experience, you are very, very mistaken. This has been hard on us all... we are a family. That's just the way it works. When your a parent some day ... perhaps you will understand.
Fling mud if you must ...
Deborah ... thank you for your interest ... my daughter is doing VERY well ... in spite of her placement. She is very resilient. She is happy for the first time in many, many years. I do believe that on many levels, the program helped her. To her credit, she is using skills that she learned there.
She is home. She is off drugs. Recreational and prescribed drugs. She is not cutting. She is not being promiscuous. She is doing well in school. She is holding down a job that she enjoys. She just went to her prom. She is responsible and well adjusted. Again ... she is happy and that is all that my heart desires for her. Thanks for asking.
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just for other parents info - who is this Congressman Miller and what is his bill - a link that I can read it for myself - pls??
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Hmmm ... couldn't just let the girl go to church in her own community while at the same time getting her (and the rest of the family) REAL therapy?
Had to isolate her in Whitefish, Montana ... for "her own good". It was the hardest thing you ever did - but you didn't use an escort, she went willing.
I get it now.
:roll:
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I am deeply dissappointed about some of these postings. How dare any "non-professional", seemingly well meaning person, give "professional" advice to parents, family, guenuinely interested parties as to whether they should actually use the help of any type of facilty for their child.
Which of you has admitted your child to a hospital with deep self-inflicted cuts over their body, only to have them come home in 10 days with some prescription drugs to take, but no real solution and the same violent, confused, morbid demeanor they left with??
Which of you has sat repeatedly with law enforcement at your home waiting to find out of your child was kidnapped, killed, "harmed, only to find out, they "ran away", again and the "next time", they go in fron of a judge as an "out of control teen"??
Which of you has sat night after night, week after week, your child (who has threatened to murder you)on the couch in your bedroom with you between them and the door to prevent them from "running away to some criminals that have twisted their minds around some sicko behavior as a coping mechinism", with your child on "contract" with you that they will not kill themselves that night??? Terrified to close your eyes and sleep for months and as a single parent, the only relief is their next hospital admittance, with the "quiet rooom" as a means of "controlling" your troubled kid?? With other children in your home who need to continue on in their lives also and the constant inability to actually be there for them?
Which of you has done this through five in-patient local hospitals and local out-patient programs hoping against hope that you DO NOT have to "send your child away"?? Trying to NOT have to use a educational consultant, praying to God to be able to keep your child close so that you can fulfill your responsibility to "keep your child safe from arm", but watching them "slip away" from you??
How dare you act in the place of a professional?
For all the bad senior professionals out there and there are many, at many of the various top notch institutions, there are also dedicated, well-meaning top notch professionals that have the gutts to finally say when enough is enough and tell a parent when after a year of six different local institutions NOT working, you finally have to bite the bullet and send your child away.
I am the parent and it is MY responsibility to discern if a professional is right or not. I have a "gutt" feeling about my child and I "know" when they are wrong. It is MY job to advocate for my child, not the govenments, the psychiatrists, not alot of misguided, "well-meaning" parents/former students"!
In 1983, I lost a child in a drowing accident. He was 14 and a "troubled" teen and I did not have the maturity nor the perspective to intervene the way I should have and through his own "challenged" decision making, he chose to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and didn't make it.
I DID NOT want to "send my daughter away." IT WAS THE LAST THING I WANTED TO DO and I exhausted without any "seeming" avaiable resources, all avenues, before "placing" my child at a program that I spent incredible time researching, before I agreed on that program.
The school system, the therapists, the incompetence of my local medical facilities, which had the best insurance coverage available, etc., all came to a point in my daughter's life, where it was "life or death" for her.
How dare you all be so callous.
Do not attempt to "fix a problem", by causing a bigger problem.
There are some horrrible treatment facilities out there, but there are also some treatment places that without them, alot of children would be dead.
There are incompetant government oversight officials who have no idea how to determine if a facility is competant or not.
There are so many professionals in the industry that their only concern is to protect themselves from "liability" and that it is tragic, but I beg both the parents and the "former students" to not destroy a needed hope for some very desperate parents and the children that deserve a "great life" and the best possible available therapuetic interventions you all decide DO WORK!!!
The wilderness program "Walkabout" in Utah, hard as they were on my daughter and as much as she, at the time hated them, were life-saving angels.
During 9/11, she was there and I could not even talk to her and I thought I would die from fear for her safety. I took her 15th birthday cake on 10/5/2001 out to Utah, flying through airports with young men with machine guns "protecting" empty airplanes, to get her a cake to the top of the mountain where she was, for her birthday and her graduation from that program.
Instead of, after two months coming home, she then went to another tremendous TBS, that SHE says, was so helpful to her to help her get out of her confusion.
That was another nine months of loss of our lives together and I achknowledge the tremendous hardship she endured to have to be away from home, away from even the total change in this country that she never even knew happened till she came home in 2004.
The last TBS she was in should be closed down and I hope there are people strong enough with wisdom to accomplish that, but for us, our challenges are not over and that is not where we fit in this puzzle.
Our story is long and difficult, as are most of the stories of the families who truly NEED to have high-claiber TBS's with therapies that do work.
So make yourselves useful, write the President in mass, go stand in front of the White House and demand change, but you volunteer as the oversight "commission".
You, as experienced parents and "former students", go do something positive and drop in on these palces and demand to have "tours" and have the places be accountable to you as now heathy, mature adults who alot of you are parents in your own rights!!!
I would trust you, but I don't want the government, the psychiatrists, the lawyers, idiots who have no experience telling me about what is a good place to send my child.
My daughter has been home a year and she is a magnificent, mature, responsible young woman that I am tremendously proud of for all her acheivements.
There were some very bad people in this story that I know God will take care of them in His time(unless, as a better solution, they actually stop being horrible people and make the amends they should). I am deeply enouraged by the activities on these forums, but I am also concerned that this push against "ALL" treatment is tremendously misguided and the incredible rantings that are such a waste of time and energy.
(Has anyone noticed it's spring and the flowers are BLOOMING!!!)
The right answer is for those of you that have your lives back to demand to be involved, as with your experience and perspective, you are the right people to provide oversight on the industry.
The kids that NEED treatment, NEED a place to go and get unconfused. Maybe it is only 20? 40% of the kids that are being treated, but figure that out AND MAKE THIS INDUSTRY DO THE RIGHT THING.
YOU ARE OUR HOPE AND ANSWER TO THE NEXT GENERATION OF KIDS WHO NEED A BETTER ANSWER!!
DON'T THROW THE BABY OUT WITH THE BATHWATER.
God Bless you all and I wish for you peace and joy and the progess into the love that our family has the priviledge to enjoy.
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On 2006-04-27 18:59:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"Nihils, you havent been reading at all or listening, what value have you added to this site? Give me a link, I'll read it!!!
http://www.askquestions.org/articles/teens/ (http://www.askquestions.org/articles/teens/)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=7573&forum=9 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=7573&forum=9)
And a few things Im not at liberty to share :grin:
Still, regardless, why not DO SOMETHIGN TO HELP instead of being an attention whore for consolation after admitting you fucked up? You dont do that for the attention and for the personal release of responsibility and getting "awww that must be so hard" crap, its to make the OTHER person feel better, and to make good on it.
Shes helped nobody, shes done nothing but talk get attention from it. 50+ posts and wont say what program or any people involved? Shes done nothing to prevent anyone else from being hurt by those same people, or gotten justice for her kid for what they did to her.
I honestly think its just someone who wants attention, and doesnt even have a kid. Even if it IS a program parent, its about time to actually DO SOMETHING!!
Another thing. As HORRIBLE as this must be over the FUCKING INTERNET THAT SHE CAN WALK AWAY FROM, IGNORE, CLOSE THE WINDOW, OR WHATEVER, imagine if I was in her face doing this, with 20 of my best buddies doing the same thing, and she cant run away, or walk away, or turn it off. She doesnt have people speaking up for her - everyones turned against her, even her own mother. And it lasts all day. And its daily, for months, maybe years.
BOO FUCKING HOO."
Fuck you, fuck your mother and fuck your God damm dog, ass wipe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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[/quote]Fuck you, fuck your mother and fuck your God damm dog, ass wipe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
[/quote]
Nihil- you forgot to sign in.
I think someone got his feelings hurt.....
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Oh please, don't kill the messenger! The teen help industry has been making and playing by their own rules for years. Your daughter was one of the lucky ones - Katie Lank, Ian August, Aaron Bacon, Michelle Sutton, and many other children who did NOT survive their treatment are proof positive that there is an INHERENT RISK that comes attached with the business of fixing troubled teens.
I find it hard to believe that your community had no resources to help your child and your family but a small town in the middle of nowhere did.
That's a mantra we have heard before, and something the ed cons and the program referral agents, admissions reps also recite ad nauseum.
Sorry, ain't buying that abuse excuse today, tomorrow or ever.
There is another way -- but of course, it may be the hardest thing you ever have to do when it comes to NOT institutionalizing your child for no better reason than you could.
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On 2006-04-28 06:19:00, mcr84kar86 wrote:
"just for other parents info - who is this Congressman Miller and what is his bill - a link that I can read it for myself - pls??"
http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/HR1738.html (http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/HR1738.html)
http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_ ... &Itemid=38 (http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogsection&id=9&Itemid=38)
http://isaccorp.org/action.html (http://isaccorp.org/action.html)
Fornits has a LOT of info on this as well.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 4&forum=35 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=12314&forum=35)
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Truthsearcher -
Thank you for finally coming forward with some facts.
I was having a bad day yesterday, but I do have very little patience for anyone using their apology for fucking up to try to get attention, or make it like they aren't responsible for what they did. It really seemed like you were just doing it to get attention, which has happened many times before. You have to understand, there is an abundance of program parents who simply will never, ever take responbility for anything, and even after they know the gig is up, they still do their same old shit but using the abuse that happened to their kid as a means to do it.
I mean... Sue Scheff... nuff said! :roll:
mcr84kar86 -
From the bottom of my heart... bite me. I cant believe youre coming in here and using how you were too emotional to think straight and using the same old "OMG I HAVE TO DO SOMETHING SO ILL JUST GIVE THEM AWAY TO SOME PEOPLE WHO WILL FIX IT AND BRING IT BACK" routine that we've heard a billion times before. We're sick and tired of hearing it!
WE DO NOT CARE HOW HARD IT WAS FOR YOU TO SEND YOUR KID OFF. STOP BRINGING IT UP. WE DONT CARE AND WONT CARE. ITS NOT ABOUT YOU.
You are right. It IS your responsibiltiy. Its your responsibility to make sure they actually are providing therapy, not harming or abusing your child in any way, and to stay in contact with your child and make sure they have a way out if theyre being abused and a way to reach you without any censorship or restriction on comunication with you, or the law.
Using your own emotional weakness and your own defensiveness to defend yourself and try to nebulously defend "programs" because "not all of them can be bad" is bullshit. Find ones that work, prove they work, and keep in contact with your child and minimize the time spent in it - the current model is to use the 'priviladge' (in their fucked up minds) of communication as something they have to 'earn' back by compliance with their rules, and have extremely long stays. There is no reason whatsoever to have such long stays in programs.
MAINSTREAM therapy doesnt use several-months-to-over-a-year stays for treatment. MAINSTREAM therapy doesnt use skinnerian or behavior modification or LGAT or level system bullshit to fix a problem. Thats only useful for making them conform and breaking them and brainwashing them, not fuxing an actual problem.
If YOU want to make YOURSELF useful, instead of covering your own ass and being a defensive, emotional pussy who doesnt want to feel bad about your own mistakes and doesnt like to see other parents attacked for fucking up and puttin their kids in culty little hellholes, why not accept responsibilty from the bottom up just like all the top-down bullshit that everyone puts upon these children?
They shove accountability and responsibility and confrontation up these kids asses basically every waking moment in their programs, but YOU cant handle any over the internet? Go cry me a fucking river.
Its funny how you say you dont want "the government, the psychiatrists, the lawyers, idiots who have no experience telling me about what is a good place to send my child" but the vast majority of the people doing it are other FAILED PARENTS, turned EdCons, people who dont know shit but think theyre doing the right thing like TSW was, people like Sue Scheff, child haters, or people out to make a buck.
Im not against ALL treatment, Im against culty, isolation, Behavior-Mod based 'treatment'. Thats NOT TREATMENT! THATS ABUSE!
You dont keep people isolated from their own family and the outside world and punish them for not doing as told to treat major psychological disorders, you do that to make them conform and so as told. Thats brainwashing, period.
Actual therapy doesnt keep them cooped up in some BM warehouse, with a level system and 'priviladges' (as seen by some authoritarian asshole) doled out by conformity, it doesnt take anything away and its not punitive. It provdies ACTUAL THERAPY, not LGAT or confrontation based bullshit. It provides ACTUAL SCHOOLING, not forced self-teaching out of a book. It allows for visitation and communication with family, not making everyone wait until the child has shown they wont try to tell the parent about the truth of the program and will only say the approved things.
Your own defensiveness about your own fuckups is understandable, but because youre an adult and more than what you are displaying is expecting of all the kids in these programs, and theyre able to handle it, so should you - especially over the internet. For someone who hasnt actually had to personally be ripped apart for 18 hours at a time, you have no room to talk.
Learn to seperate the culty, BM, level-system based, isolation and punishment based bullshit from REAL therapy, and then we'll talk. And please stop using the boilerplate post-seminar bullshit about alliterating, positive-sounding adjectives, ok? You should know what REAL therapy is, and what program-based brainwashing is, by now. Dont give us 'dont throw the baby out with the bathwater' and other emotional, generalized nonsense.
The only places worth keeping are those that dont abuse, and actually provide real, actual therapy - not level based, carrot-and-stock behavior modification, or LGAT or any other psychological-regression based behavior modification, or any place that isolates children so much and fucks with their mind to make them do as told. Just as we tried to tell Truth Searcher, THAT can hurt many many more times than any amount of physical abuse.
I know someone, but am not at liberty to say who, who ran from her program. Twice. The second time, she wasnt caught and drug back. But guess what? She got her drink spiked and was gang raped. That was apparently so much easier to deal with than the constant mental and emotional abuse and torture in that program she just got cleaned up and went on her way, much to the amazement and shock of her friends. Hell, I once asked her outright if its the psycholgoical stuff or being physically restraint or beaten that hurt more.
Guess what she said? Yep, fucking with their minds.
So, while you seem to wish to just group everything as "programs" and say "not all are bad" and nother emotional and nebulous arguements, mostly in defence of your self, I have specifics Im talking about.
REAL THERAPY, no isolation, no punishment, no level systems, no behavior mod, no LGATs, no teaching out of a book, minimized time stayed in the program, not a set time everyone has to stay, minimized restraints and NO punitive restraints - ONLY to keep them from attacking themselves or others, is what I want. None of that is effective or defensible.
And, of course, residential, in-a-facility-treatment only when absolutely needed... which is probably a fraction of a percent of most children in BM warehouses, if any at all.
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Go back to bed- you are still having a bad day, month, year, life???
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On 2006-04-28 08:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Fuck you, fuck your mother and fuck your God damm dog, ass wipe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Nihil- you forgot to sign in.
I think someone got his feelings hurt....."
I log in automatically. I use firefox. This is why I wish people would get their own accounts to post isntead of hiding behind anonymity - you dont know who said it.
And yes, you can be identifyable but still anonymous.[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2006-04-28 10:02 ]
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On 2006-04-28 10:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Go back to bed- you are still having a bad day, month, year, life???"
Why not address what I have to say instead of more stupid ad-hominem attacks that all sound the same as every other one Ive heard here?
:roll: shoudln't you be saying bullshit like becuase I know too much, Im too critical, or fornits is 'negative', or becuase I have 'issues' (as diagnosed by Dr. Failedparent) it means anything I say, even if its true, is wrong?
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Your entire post was an ad hominem attack. Why should anyone try to refute your arguments when to do so means wading through all the "fucks" and "bite me's". When you learn to construct an argument without attacking others and without using profanity, then maybe you will get some attention. Until then, you don't deserve a response.
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On 2006-04-28 10:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Your entire post was an ad hominem attack. Why should anyone try to refute your arguments when to do so means wading through all the "fucks" and "bite me's". When you learn to construct an argument without attacking others and without using profanity, then maybe you will get some attention. Until then, you don't deserve a response."
Funny, you just gave me one :em:
EVERYONE has a limit to how much they can take. Thats how these programs break down the children within it. Struggling teens calls 'wearing them down until they cant hide whats really going on', but the rest of us know what it is.
But, regardless, Ive had my fill of parents who preached teen accountability but cant take any upon themselves, and want a pity-party for their fuckups and wont take any responsibilty for it themselves.
Im sick of emotional crap, Im sick of logical fallacies, Im sick of them still pulling their munchausen syndrome by proxy shit about HOW thier kid was abused, after they gave up their child for abuse and then did that shit in the parent support BBSes and support groups! Its time for them to grow up at least as much as they expected thier own children to be!
If you fucked up, take your licks and responsibilty, and move on! For all the preaching these parents did, they sure as hell fail at walking their own walk!
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In reading the information made available to you, you have come to the conclusion that the reason I admitted my child was, "for no better reason than you could".
After over a year of informing my child's school of the overwhelming "issues" and struggle my child was having and having them inform me, after several IEP's, I requested and had a academic lawyer (not a ed con)attend, to in fact keep her in her school/local area programs, that as she was a straight "A" honors student, first chair violin, catcher on her fast pitch softball team, they did not recognize there to be any "problems".
Only when another student brought my child to the principal's office with safety pins she had stuck through her thigh, with blood running down her leg, then "Oh My God", the problem was now so serious that, she could not be part of any local treatment program, she would now have to be refferred to the highest level "lock-down", facility with bars on the windows, program in our County with felons, rapists, the criminal element refferred from the judicial community.
The only way to have her in an environment that would be conducive to her personality with the outdoors, horses, freedom of the mountains, ropes courses, girls only, was to get her away from the overbearring govt, local, small-minded programs.
We live in one of the largest metropolitan areas of this country and all of the "students" in the "schools" my child went to in the small towns of Utah and Georgia, were in fact, from these big metropolitan areas with private therapists/psychiatrists that overmedicate, over hospitilize, over diagnosis to keep the big bucks rolling in their pockets.
My child was with a private therapist, private psychiatrists, had teams here locally of the best in the world for her to work with. She had music/sports/"friends", horses, anything and everything to "help" disuade her from the track she was barrelling down.
As a single parent mom, I used my assetts to be an "at home" mom, to prevent exactly these "issues" in my family, to no avail!
No, there is NOTHING in this area that anyone who could afford private care, would inflict on their child.
I and my daughter, are eternally grateful for the wild country of Utah that she got to go and volunteer to mark silver mines with these old farts who were her choice of companion (under the watchful eyes of her wilderness program) and roam around under the stars and see that there is a great big world out there other than the puny minded, stupid "professionals" back here that all they care about is "protecting" there professional opinions and making kids so "sick" so they can brilliantly "cure" them!!!
My daughter was diagnosed bipolar, PTSD, clinically depressed, anxiety panic, possible borderline personality disorder, etc., etc., etc.,... They put her on so many medications, it is not funny and all she did was slip further and further down the black dark hole of insanity.
My gut told me they were wrong and that she needed out of the hands of these "brilliant" huge, "state-of-the-art" facilities around here.
I took big risks with her with the wilderness program (not a religious, more American Indian, but what did I care, they allowed her to "feel" some connection to something spiritual), horses she worked with at her treatment place that allowed her to feel some "empathy" and appreciation and affirmation of her "wildness"(even though she almost burned the barn down), had little kittens to "care for" and cuddle with. I took big risks pushing her back into the "classroom" environment at these "schools" as she wanted to just be privately tutored.
Thank God I did.
She worked hard to push past her anger, fear, hopelessness and over time, she got that "brightness" back in her life!!
She is on NO medications and has not been for two years.
We are dramatic, emotional, creative people (who are a bit funny too), but she doesn't need the crutch of drugs, alcohol, RX's, therapy, risky behavior, fighting with irrational people.
She is a happy healthy adult, with a great realtionship with her family, her boyfriend, her job, her school.
It is alot of work for the "students"/parents/therapuetic workers that care and the appropriate staffs. We have been through 6 years of hell since all this started, with the added mess of 22 years of hell with lawsuits from her childish father, who doesn't feel he has to ever grow up and "no one" is going to tell him what to do, but we have all done the work to love and accept each other and it shows in our family.
I insist. There are circumstances, unfamiliar to you, in which, the outside arena of the therapuetic environment, to sort out the confusion developed in the family/community environment, is needed, to prevent the demise of one of the family members.
There are horrible ed cons who trick, misrepresent and are horribly inappropriate, as in all areas of business on this planet (that is why they say "buyer beware").
It is the small towns and communities, which we have found, are actually, the best arena to provide the environment to help a family sort out it's confusion.
In our local area alone, the list of dead teens who have not survived so far surpasses this list you have posted that it is incredibly sad.
Not ever to demeen even one child's death or to excuse it. Any facility that is responsible for harm to childern should be held accountable to the fullest extent of the law, but in our area, drinking deaths, drinking while driving with no seat belt, the stupidity of the college campuses with shooting for a pair of shoes, an ipod, a cell phone, you name it.
You cannot throw out a whole range of viable options that are "good", just because you or someone you love were hurt. I am sorry for your hurt, but discernment as to which are good and which needs to be closed down is really the harder option and the harder job.
If you do not like the rules of the teen idustry, the beauty of our country is that if you yell loud enough, if you make enough noise, someone will listen to YOU!!
If you know better what to do, please tell us! We need better options and maybe you are just the person to give us those better options.
WE ARE LISTENING.
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You cannot throw out a whole range of viable options that are "good", just because you or someone you love were hurt. I am sorry for your hurt, but discernment as to which are good and which needs to be closed down is really the harder option and the harder job.
READ VERY CAREFULLY, OK?
"PROGRAMS" That rely on levels, behavior modification, psycholgocial regression, LGATs, confrontational crap, isolate the child, are non consentual, and mandate long stays, are bad, dont provide thereapy, and actually hurt children.
Re-read that, ok? Read it a LOT of times, because you didnt get it the first time.
When "residential treatment" is ABSOLUTELY necessary, it should be used - but only as long as ABSOLUTELY necessary, and then removed from a place that takes away freedom and autonomy. Understand? The MAINSTREAM has said this for a long time, and so does common sense.
You dont 'fuck up' and then get a year long sentance in a lockup. Thats bullshit, and its not therapeutic.
A "Program" that is residential only for the purposes of protecting them form injuring themselves or others, and only as long as it takes to do so, that does NOT abuse, does NOT use behavior modification, levels, LGATs, confrontational or forced ANYTHING, and doesnt isolate them from visits by family and friends, the outside world, you, or legal representation or advocatsy groups, are good, but the thing is...
... theyre not really programs. What makes a program a program is the behavior modification (aka BRAINWASHING) element. Dont group them together, and defend them together! "Programs" that dont provide any damn therapy but just brainwash them have been the problem all along. Actual treatment also doesnt have a set minimum time for incarceration, either. The point is to get out of hte shackles or the locked doors and barred windows ASAP, not stay until you earn the way out.
Do you see what I mean now?
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mcr84kar86, I think your passion for advocating for your child and tough choices you had to make will be an inspiration to some families who are facing similar challenges.
Thanks for your candor, and balanced view.
[ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-04-28 10:46 ][ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-04-28 10:47 ]
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Looks like we got 2 program apologists on board. What's going on? The Struggling Teens Pity Party getting a bit too crowded?
Baaaaawahahhaaaa! Yep, that must be it.
Well, have at it. Most of us are used to the drama by now, (YAWN).
:wink:
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Mcr84kar86,
We are listening, too.
Can you provide the name of the TBS that was helpful to your daughter?
And the name of the TBS that you feel should be closed down?
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Dear "sir", madam"?:
I do not know if you are a former parent? Student?, but you remind me of when my children were very young and their dad chose to not be part of their life, except to terrorize me.
Their response was to become addicted to two movies, "Liar, Liar" and "Hook". They used to say about their "daddy", the line from "Hook", "he needs a mommy very badly".
I do not know where your pain came from, but I am deeply sorry for your hurt and I think this line applies to you.
I go to Court again Monday (I seperated 09/23/1986, nine months pregnant, with a 2 year old son, to save my children from a horrendouse home where it was inevitable that someone was going to die if I stayed, I left my home, my cars, my income and all my friends, to take responsibility that my children grew up in a home where they were NOT abused-we went to bed every night with long stories from "Jungle Books", "Twinkle Twinkle, Little Star", sung by all together, and our little silly prayers - the door was locked and we were safely on this side and there were only the three of us).
I did NOT put my children through the humiliation of "charging" their father with his behavior, as little children should not have to go to school every day in their community, with the "sins" of their parents hanging over their heads and on their shoulders.
AS you well know, school can be brutal.
I spent from 1985 - 1991, just trying to get divorced. My divorce case went all the way to the Special Court of Appeals and the kids dad appealed six times.
He had the pleasure of all our assetts, our home and resources to hire the largest Washington D.C. law firm to try to do to me what he was not able to do in our home.
After losing our 14 year old son in 1983 from a drowning accident, all the while while I was "on the road", installing computers systems and proving to mankind "I am woman, hear me roar", I made a pact with the kids father before conception, that I would NOT bring children into this world that I would not stay home and be responsible for their care and well-being, he agreed!
Later during our divorce, he decided that maybe, he didn't agree anymore, but by a fluke in our case, the Court gave me the ability to fullfill my pact to myself.
It has been 21 long years and those "babies" are now 21 and 19. One is in college working his tail off on his degree and the other, having flirted with the illusion that money/manipulation/the "devil might make up for abandonment, now is "home" with her family, accepting the "hardships" of a working life, and the joy and love that a more simple life has to offer.
You lash out so harshly at me.
My daughter in the throes of her transition into adolescence desperately needed her distant father's "attention", for better or for worse.
I got to dance the legal dance all over again. All the damage I had recoved from, I got to do it all over again and am still getting to dance that dance with him, but I AM the parent.
I do NOT blame, I fully accept the responsibility of my own stupidity of being 21 and making bad decisions, by pulling hurtful people into my life, causing hurt to my children. I accept responsibility for marrying a hurtful person and do not blame my kids for desiring a relationship with their father, it is quite natural, although hurtful to them.
You don't know the home/community/church/support that I had established for my family, that when the "treatment/therapists" told me I had to give up for my daughter's well-being, I left it all behind, again, for her sake.
None of your postings are about, you, your loved ones. No explanation of your opinions you throw out as facts/advice to the families looking for guidance as to "are they making good choices for their kids that they love"?
I go to Court again Monday. I go alone. I don't hire lawyers anymore, I'm still paying two of the 6 - 10 that were involved in all the manipulations that my children's father did to confuse this kid as to what was "real".
I don't hire therapists.
I don't hire people to give me advice today and I and hopefully all the other parents who have the weight of the world on them today about "am I doing the right thing?, certainly don't listen to an angry, cursing person who is sharing nothing other than the intellectual demonstration of the pain of his/her life" .
Again, I am sorry for your pain. You don't know me from Adam.
Tonight, I go to my meeting a pick up my own 17 yr symbol of my own sobriety.
I have had my own struggle with my own demons, but did not let that overshadow my children's needs, wants, desires for a "wonderful life".
My young people practice their own form of spiritual life, they are free, for the most part from the nasty media imposed crap plagued on our youth.
They like music (their own kind)fast, muscle cars (yes both my son AND my daughter) they love good food, cook well and have great respect for themselves and others.
Again, before you keep throwing out your anger, whatever you want to call what you are doing, think of the wandering parent, confused as all get-up, some alone and being told by friends, family, recovery, "just kick them out", "lock them out of the house", "let them go to jail, so they can see what it is like", "tough love", let the school take care of them", and then try to step back and really feel, do you really WANT to be just throwing alot of platitudes at them??
Are you qualified to step into my situation 6 years back with lawyers/judges/psychiatrists/school counselors/DHHS/recovery personnel/the insurance company advisor/hospital administators/educational consultants/educational lawyers?? and are you qualified to step into that swirl, all the while I am under a microscope and being ivestigated by everyone as to "of course, I the single-parent mom, solely responsible for this child, had to be at fault".
Are you truly qualified to sit on this forum and give advice? as to the viability of this or that program? I think NOT.
I do not mean to hurt you in any way, but I think, in this business that is ONLY about hurt and confusion, you could contribute some "information", support, encouragement, something positive to those who are looking for answers.
I have been through alot and I WOULD NOT GIVE ADVICE. I would not be so arrogant to "assume" that I could know enough in a short period of time to tell a parent with the balance of their child's life in their hands, what they should do.
I certainly wouldn't criticize them for circumstances I might not ever be able to understand and further contribute to the pain they must already be experiencing.
Are there bad parents, of course. Are there uncaring, negligent parents, who just ship their kids off wihtout thinking, they have been doing that since the beginning of time, that is where boarding school came from, but I wouldn't even happily send my kids off to camp (even though I did let them go to lacrosse and softball camp), but I didn't "like it", but it was very good for them to fly gliders/do dressage, play music.
again - are you a former parent or student?
regardless, God Bless you and keep you and may you see the color of the flowers today and feel the warmth of the sun on your face- that is God Blessing YOU and smiling on you!!!! :wave:
-
On 2006-04-28 11:51:00, mcr84kar86 wrote:
"Dear "sir", madam"?:
I do not know if you are a former parent? Student?, but you remind me of when my children were very young and their dad chose to not be part of their life, except to terrorize me.
Their response was to become addicted to two movies, "Liar, Liar" and "Hook". They used to say about their "daddy", the line from "Hook", "he needs a mommy very badly".
I do not know where your pain came from, but I am deeply sorry for your hurt and I think this line applies to you.
I go to Court again Monday (I seperated 09/23/1986, nine months pregnant, with a 2 year old son, to save my children from a horrendouse home where it was inevitable that someone was going to die if I stayed, I left my home, my cars, my income and all my friends, to take responsibility that my children grew up in a home where they were NOT abused-we went to bed every night with long stories from "Jungle Books", "Twinkle Twinkle, Little Star", sung by all together, and our little silly prayers - the door was locked and we were safely on this side and there were only the three of us).
I did NOT put my children through the humiliation of "charging" their father with his behavior, as little children should not have to go to school every day in their community, with the "sins" of their parents hanging over their heads and on their shoulders.
AS you well know, school can be brutal.
I spent from 1985 - 1991, just trying to get divorced. My divorce case went all the way to the Special Court of Appeals and the kids dad appealed six times.
He had the pleasure of all our assetts, our home and resources to hire the largest Washington D.C. law firm to try to do to me what he was not able to do in our home.
After losing our 14 year old son in 1983 from a drowning accident, all the while while I was "on the road", installing computers systems and proving to mankind "I am woman, hear me roar", I made a pact with the kids father before conception, that I would NOT bring children into this world that I would not stay home and be responsible for their care and well-being, he agreed!
Later during our divorce, he decided that maybe, he didn't agree anymore, but by a fluke in our case, the Court gave me the ability to fullfill my pact to myself.
It has been 21 long years and those "babies" are now 21 and 19. One is in college working his tail off on his degree and the other, having flirted with the illusion that money/manipulation/the "devil might make up for abandonment, now is "home" with her family, accepting the "hardships" of a working life, and the joy and love that a more simple life has to offer.
You lash out so harshly at me.
My daughter in the throes of her transition into adolescence desperately needed her distant father's "attention", for better or for worse.
I got to dance the legal dance all over again. All the damage I had recoved from, I got to do it all over again and am still getting to dance that dance with him, but I AM the parent.
I do NOT blame, I fully accept the responsibility of my own stupidity of being 21 and making bad decisions, by pulling hurtful people into my life, causing hurt to my children. I accept responsibility for marrying a hurtful person and do not blame my kids for desiring a relationship with their father, it is quite natural, although hurtful to them.
You don't know the home/community/church/support that I had established for my family, that when the "treatment/therapists" told me I had to give up for my daughter's well-being, I left it all behind, again, for her sake.
None of your postings are about, you, your loved ones. No explanation of your opinions you throw out as facts/advice to the families looking for guidance as to "are they making good choices for their kids that they love"?
I go to Court again Monday. I go alone. I don't hire lawyers anymore, I'm still paying two of the 6 - 10 that were involved in all the manipulations that my children's father did to confuse this kid as to what was "real".
I don't hire therapists.
I don't hire people to give me advice today and I and hopefully all the other parents who have the weight of the world on them today about "am I doing the right thing?, certainly don't listen to an angry, cursing person who is sharing nothing other than the intellectual demonstration of the pain of his/her life" .
Again, I am sorry for your pain. You don't know me from Adam.
Tonight, I go to my meeting a pick up my own 17 yr symbol of my own sobriety.
I have had my own struggle with my own demons, but did not let that overshadow my children's needs, wants, desires for a "wonderful life".
My young people practice their own form of spiritual life, they are free, for the most part from the nasty media imposed crap plagued on our youth.
They like music (their own kind)fast, muscle cars (yes both my son AND my daughter) they love good food, cook well and have great respect for themselves and others.
Again, before you keep throwing out your anger, whatever you want to call what you are doing, think of the wandering parent, confused as all get-up, some alone and being told by friends, family, recovery, "just kick them out", "lock them out of the house", "let them go to jail, so they can see what it is like", "tough love", let the school take care of them", and then try to step back and really feel, do you really WANT to be just throwing alot of platitudes at them??
Are you qualified to step into my situation 6 years back with lawyers/judges/psychiatrists/school counselors/DHHS/recovery personnel/the insurance company advisor/hospital administators/educational consultants/educational lawyers?? and are you qualified to step into that swirl, all the while I am under a microscope and being ivestigated by everyone as to "of course, I the single-parent mom, solely responsible for this child, had to be at fault".
Are you truly qualified to sit on this forum and give advice? as to the viability of this or that program? I think NOT.
I do not mean to hurt you in any way, but I think, in this business that is ONLY about hurt and confusion, you could contribute some "information", support, encouragement, something positive to those who are looking for answers.
I have been through alot and I WOULD NOT GIVE ADVICE. I would not be so arrogant to "assume" that I could know enough in a short period of time to tell a parent with the balance of their child's life in their hands, what they should do.
I certainly wouldn't criticize them for circumstances I might not ever be able to understand and further contribute to the pain they must already be experiencing.
Are there bad parents, of course. Are there uncaring, negligent parents, who just ship their kids off wihtout thinking, they have been doing that since the beginning of time, that is where boarding school came from, but I wouldn't even happily send my kids off to camp (even though I did let them go to lacrosse and softball camp), but I didn't "like it", but it was very good for them to fly gliders/do dressage, play music.
again - are you a former parent or student?
regardless, God Bless you and keep you and may you see the color of the flowers today and feel the warmth of the sun on your face- that is God Blessing YOU and smiling on you!!!! :rofl:
-
MCR84KAR86, I wish I could articulate as well as you did with my own experiences. You really did keep your focus on the kids throughout all of that and made the best choices you could given the time and circumstances??.There are many people looking for a single "latin phrase" or "medical condition" (as we speak) in an attempt to label /discredit you, but your story stands on is own merit/words for others to read. You have brought balance to fornits, which will make it a more credible site, in my opinion.
Thanks
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On 2006-04-28 13:33:00, TheWho wrote:
"MCR84KAR86, I wish I could articulate as well as you did with my own experiences. You really did keep your focus on the kids throughout all of that and made the best choices you could given the time and circumstances??.There are many people looking for a single "latin phrase" or "medical condition" (as we speak) in an attempt to label /discredit you, but your story stands on is own merit/words for others to read. You have brought balance to fornits, which will make it a more credible site, in my opinion.
Thanks
"
Balance? You have GOT to be kidding? What's unbalanced is the pro-program websites and parents like the ones posting here who think they deserve some kind of award for raising their kid in a lock down facility or "therapeutic" community.
:flame:
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On 2006-04-28 13:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-28 13:33:00, TheWho wrote:
"MCR84KAR86, I wish I could articulate as well as you did with my own experiences. You really did keep your focus on the kids throughout all of that and made the best choices you could given the time and circumstances??.There are many people looking for a single "latin phrase" or "medical condition" (as we speak) in an attempt to label /discredit you, but your story stands on is own merit/words for others to read. You have brought balance to fornits, which will make it a more credible site, in my opinion.
Thanks
"
Balance? You have GOT to be kidding? What's unbalanced is the pro-program websites and parents like the ones posting here who think they deserve some kind of award for raising their kid in a lock down facility or "therapeutic" community.
:flame: "
By balanced, I mean hearing stories and accounts from the parents point of view, with details. There are plenty of detailed accounts from the kids but not as many parents.
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Mcr84kar86
Gee...WOW!
Really sorry about your asshole ex-husband.
Congratulations on your 17th sobriety chip!
Sorry about the upcoming court ordeal, whatever that's about--
But could you answer my PREVIOUS two questions?
What program was your daughter in that you felt helped her?
What's the name of the program that you feel needs to be closed down?
Thanks.
-
Thanks so much for the positive words - it has been two years since I have even let myself think about all this mess and only at my daughter's urging and her even showing me all this "goings on" did I even "talk" to you all.
Everything up here is with her blessing and she does her own positive contributions.
I am not really pro-program.
I did not go to a "program" my self to get sober and I think there are far too many people, "hiding out" in the excuse of a "program", sitting in comfy bed, getting drugs to take the "edge off", rather than just "knock off the behavior" and "suck up" and get through the pain.
I am very much a "pull yourself up by your boot straps" type of person and all the women I sponsered over the first decade of my sobriety would tell you that, but it was different when it was my child and the complications certainly caused me to reach out for many kinds of help. I do believe, I left "no stone unturned" in my quest for our way out of hell.
I don't have degrees or titles, nor have I held on to my "position" or "stuff" in life to prop me up. (sometimes I look back, at 50, and wonder if I should have maybe :silly: with all the tragedies that have befallen me and I yell about it regularly (it doesn't help).
Anyway, I think each person has to be responsible to look at ALL options and then do the best they can with what they've got and be responsible for both the good and bad choices they make.
I am responsible and accountable and like to think that as a society, we will support each other in "getting there" together.
If we helped each other more in a positive way and were there for each other, we would need TBS's less.
Think about that!
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On 2006-04-28 13:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Mcr84kar86
Gee...WOW!
Really sorry about your asshole ex-husband.
Congratulations on your 17th sobriety chip!
Sorry about the upcoming court ordeal, whatever that's about--
But could you answer my PREVIOUS two questions?
What program was your daughter in that you felt helped her?
What's the name of the program that you feel needs to be closed down?
Thanks.
"
BUMP
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MCR - if you made shorter, more focused posts that didnt have 15 disparate, omnidirectional points so that it could be boiled down to a few points to debate or talk about, that would be most helpful, because rambling emotional and personal posts really just waste everyones time.
I wasnt going after scared, confused parents. Im angry at the parents who cant handle guilt and try to shrug it off or try to get attention "oh woe is me" about how sorry and confused they were and how bad their kid was abused, but never seem to say anything about their poor kid.
Again, I have said this at least half a dozen times! Please calm down and read what I say and stop being so defensive.
I realize youre emotional and upset... mostly because by making run-on emotional diatribes as posts you kind of billboard it to everyone. Im talking about SPECFICALLY parents that are showboating just how "sorry" they are, for attention, or those who make excuses of all sorts about how they were fooled and tricked to get out of guilt and blame.
Your own defensiveness in light of that is understandable, but useless. I dont have anything personal against you, but frankly Im ambivilant to that. Im not here to provide coping skils to people who feel guilty. Im not attacking ALL parents, just THOSE parents. Im also not here to put up with people twisting admonition of their guilt and apologizes into dramatic attentionwhoring - and, AGAIN, thats who I was directing this to, and only to them.
Im also not against treatment - Im against the misapplication of restrictive confinement in any but the most needed circumstances, and only for the period of time in which it takes to stabilize them - if its a week, days, or a few hours, so be it. Its commonly MIS-used by private programs that dont even provide therapy, but instead work on a B.I.T.E. model which amounts to little more than "behavior modification" or "brainwashing" depending on who you ask. Those are useless for anything except the parents, who get attention from the support groups and BBSes and get to ditch the kid for a while and be given back a kid that acts just the way they want.
Real TREATMENT, Im not against at all. Therapy is a useful tool to those who need it, but only when its CONSENTUAL. Nonconsentual therapy is not, period. Any amount of time in confinement when its not truly necessary is criminal and is a violation of their rights as a human being, PERIOD. Isolation of the sort these for-profit programs utilize its not therapeutic or useful for therapy at all, PERIOD. Forced or coersed anything is not okay, PERIOD, and 'forcing' treatment is only acceptable if they are literally in danger of inflicting bodily harm to or killing themselves, or others. Once that is not a risk, further confinement is a violation of their rights.
Do you understand me yet? And please, make a shorter post that I can follow thats not all over the place.
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MCR84kar96
It is nice to know you have a thriving business..the patience of Job..a boyfriend...and the ability to not think about "all this mess for 2 years...."
NOW WILL YOU ANSWER MY two simple questions?
The name of the programs, please.
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On 2006-04-28 14:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
"MCR84kar96
It is nice to know you have a thriving business..the patience of Job..a boyfriend...and the ability to not think about "all this mess for 2 years...."
NOW WILL YOU ANSWER MY two simple questions?
The name of the programs, please."
Now do you get my frustration at people making it about them when its supposed to be about those kids being tortured while we're too busy having a pissy fest about how its always about them? :roll:
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mcr84kar86, you are communicating well, they are trying to beat you down but they haven?t found that one Latin phrase to discredit your story yet. If you read thru many posts here, you will not see many accounts from the kids where they attempt to explain why they went to a TBS or why their parents felt compelled to send them, so your account isnt heavy ended. Most posts are written from the writers perspective and their feelings, it?s a natural standard here.
-
Personally, I think parents who turn to programs to fix a troubled teen live in a fantasy world. No program can give you back the kid you once knew. What they do is suppress adolescence to such a perverse degree that what parents get after a year or more of behavior modification is a teen who has REGRESSED into a child like compliance with an over-bearing, over demanding, emotionally inefficient parent.
In short, they get a kid who has lost their own identity. They have become not who they are, but who the parents WANT them to be.
This is called CONDITIONAL LOVE. It is the end result of conditioning children to think and act in accordance to earning such basic privileges as going to the bathroom without raising their hand.
Parents, get a grip. Stop bullying your children into submission. If they need help, take them to a qualified adolescent behavioral healthcare specialist - not some buffoon in a tin hat.
:wave:
-
hmmm - I don't call him that as he is the father of my children and all children want to love their parents, no matter how "challenged" they are (and he is very challenged).
Disrespect of a parent is to disrespect the child also. I don't want my children (even though they are 21 and 19) to feel that way about themselves.
I am proud of the love that my children have for their father (maybe not so much my daughter right now, as he "used" her terriblly, to trick her into hurting me, but we all need to be cautious of "free" rides and she learned a very harsh lesson in life).
So, http://www.walkabout.com (http://www.walkabout.com) is the first place we had experience with for two months. Doc Rick was just tremendous and the whole staff(even though the experience was traumatic and I had nightmares every night about where I had sent my daughter and all the random free-floating anxiety that it took constant logic flow to stem the tide of) was incredible in their support both of my daughter and our family interaction.
You could drop my daughter down most anywhere on this planet out in a wilderness situation and my bet would be on her as a leader, guide, positive influence on not just "surviving", but thoroughly enjoying the experience of being at one with nature (they did grow up hiking, camping, playing in the mountains, etc., but now she's the leader, not me :grin: )
The next place was New Haven for 9 motnhs and where people are getting this "locked down" business, I don't know.
The hospitals/treatment places in our metropolitan area had those, but my whole reason for "sending my child away" was to get away from that.
Maybe some kids can endure that, but my kid is extremely independant and free and had always been that way from birth. She was the epidome of "I do it", much to my chargrin (I couldn't even pick her clothes - we called her miss independant).
New Haven was month to month and I thought it would just be a month or two, but she decided to pull her dad into the "power trip" with me and get him to get custody.
That is what really aggravated the whole mess.
Things just got more and more complicated, but at any time she could have "walked".
Any of you who know the place, kids "run away" all the time, but she loved working with the stallion they had there.
My kid was very horse savy and the therapuetic trainer worked with her on "communicating with this horse to not force her will on him, but to get him to want to "play" with her and please her.
She was very impressed and began to see her "will" and her "power" in a whole new light.
All of the "places" we worked with had compulsorary parent involvement. The theory was that it was no use treating the child if they went home and all the crap just kept on going.
We should have 'graduated" there, but the litigation stuff was now in full swing. There were legal teams swirling around, ed cons, judges and all these people who had no idea even who my daughter was or what was going on, they were going to "HELP".
I will not name the last place as it is not in our best interest right now to have any litigious involvement over and above the mess I am trying to rid myself of leftover from all that time.
My daughter, this is her place to be comfortable and I don't think it would help her to lay out the family mess.
It's my mess to resolve and make go away so that we can all go on in peace.
I am hopeful parents will work dilegently to pursue what is best for the whole family, but be kind when they make mistakes, I don't think there are any gods in all this mess, we are just humans trying to do the best we can.
But above all, love one another.
I had no money, no health, all my friends abandoned me as they all had opinions about what I should do (tough love, ditch my kid) and I had to turn my back on alot in my life and look to the love of my kid.
My best friend died of cancer during this mess.
my sponser died of parkinson's disease and my Priest att he ripe old age of 90 decided it was time to go "Home".
You know what, life's not fair.
But my priest, Fr. Traecy always said, "there is never a justifiable reason, for doing the wrong thing."
So I tried, despite all the distractions and stuff to pull me away from my responsibilities to just continue to do the "right" thing, no matter how difficult.
I made many trips to Utah(I'm still paying those credit cards), I brought my daughter home as often as I could, I made many trips to the other location (and she NEVER was in a locked down place) it wouldn't have worked with her anyway, she's not the type you can do that with.
She still has her beauty, her spirit (even better) all all her talent and independence, but now she has the decision making ability to stand back, evaluate, and take her time to think things through, rather than just impulsively jump at stuff.
Sorry, I am sooo wordy, came from long line of "words' people.
-
thanks "the who", but after having a 14 year old that tested out of college in her "placement" tests for treatment, that her whole 24/7 job was to aggravate, "mess" with me, these people are amatuers :wave:
-
So from all of those WORDS:
I believe you said: Your daughter was at New Haven and doing fine.
Your ex-husband got involved.
After some "court mess" your daughter was placed in this 2nd facility that you believe should be closed down.
Now, due to some on-going legal problems with this 2nd facility---you will not name this place.
Is that what you said?
Again: very sorry about the on-going tragedies swirling about you.
-
--brrrrrring brrrrrrrring...--
"Mr. Troll speaking."
Sorry about that, I just had to call you.
"Some twit on a forum is spewing a line of complete bullshit and you're calling troll? It's all right, that's what I'm here for."
-
i guess i am not being clear - Walkabout was great 2001 - new haven was great 2001 - 2002, but during our "time" there, my daughter tried to pull her dad into her life as all she had ever felt was abandonment - he chose to move 3000 miles away from her during her childhood - it is the third place 2002 - 2004, that we only resorted to as a "holding place" (that was all that was supposed to be, but ongoing court proceedings dragged that out for a year and a half), till the court mess was over - this place used "power trips" and manipulations to "spilt" the family and interact with the legal staffs involved, rather than me the parent - not until my daughter was almost 18 did I finally simply "Pull" her from any further "treatment" involvement and simply dare "all" to put me in jail to bring her home - my court involvemnt with her father continued over power trips he continues in his attempt to just keep me involved with his life - ("pictures are missing", just material "stuff" that he asserts he was "deprived" of) I believe the last place's choices are bringing themselves to their logical conclusion without my help.
-
what is a troll??
-
Good lord, these parents need help. They are stressing over their teenagers having a "will" of their own.
No wonder these programs thrive. The parents pay big bucks to "fix" their kid when all along, it's them (the parent) who is getting the fix.
And it's addictive, ain't it Mom/Dad? You just keep writing those checks to the teen helpers and life is good -- for you. Your poor kid is the one living the nightmare.
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On 2006-04-28 15:24:00, mcr84kar86 wrote:
"what is a troll??"
:roll:
Amateur trolls always ask this.
Your attempts at reducing your writing ability to sound more "authentic" are also full of holes.
Bottom line: You aren't real, and we know it. At least I'm a consistently-written fictional character.
-
Well, Mcr84Kar86
I think you are full of shit.
If your daughter was in a program from 2001 until 2004, you have no way of know ANYTHING about this girl PERIOD!!!
You were just as absent from her life as her father, who moved his butt 3,000 miles away.
No one is listening to your nonsense.
:wave: BYE BYE
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is amazing - i forgot the surreal life of "treatment" people - all i can say is wow - good luck to you guys - u really need it :wave:
-
lol - for those who havent noticed, TheWho is mcr84kar86!
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On 2006-04-28 15:59:00, mcr84kar86 wrote:
"is amazing - i forgot the surreal life of "treatment" people - all i can say is wow - good luck to you guys - u really need it :wstupid:
Youre not trying hard enough... or too hard. NEXT.
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On 2006-04-28 14:41:00, TheWho wrote:
"mcr84kar86, you are communicating well, they are trying to beat you down but they haven?t found that one Latin phrase to discredit your story yet. If you read thru many posts here, you will not see many accounts from the kids where they attempt to explain why they went to a TBS or why their parents felt compelled to send them, so your account isnt heavy ended. Most posts are written from the writers perspective and their feelings, it?s a natural standard here."
OMG - you are now talking to YOURSELF?
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
-
Most posts are written from the writers perspective
And I suppose you are writing from your daughters?
-
Next?
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On 2006-04-28 16:16:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"
On 2006-04-28 15:59:00, mcr84kar86 wrote:
"is amazing - i forgot the surreal life of "treatment" people - all i can say is wow - good luck to you guys - u really need it :wstupid:
Youre not trying hard enough... or too hard.
NEXT."
Well, in fairness, trolls do have a bit of disadvantage when it comes to debate because of their very low emotional IQ.
:rofl:
-
Fornits: A whole lot
Programmie trolls: 0
*ponders adding a scorekeeper function to the PT9K*
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mcr84kar86 why are you not using your signature line anymore? I saw it in the HLA post you made, I kind of liked it... how did it go? Something like...
"Parent who survived 3 years of child's treatment"
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"parent who survived 3 years of childs treatment"
HMM, why be so defensive about me bringing up ATTENTION WHORE DRAMA QUEEN PROGRAM PARNETS huh :roll:
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Niles, did you forget to take your medicine today?
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:wink:
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mcr84kar86, Hey, I warned you, but you do good. If you had written against the programs and said you were abducted, no one would have questioned a word you said. Its tough when you are in the minority but when you look at the lack of substance they come back with ?well?. I have been in your place, it?s mostly anger and frustration. Most of them were never in a position to make a decision like you did so they don?t understand, lack of understanding breeds frustration and prejudice, it?s a natural reaction, but tough to overcome via dialogue.
I have to admit it is interesting to watch from the side lines, you get a whole new perspective.
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The Who, you are wrong. Many of us parents have discussed our decision about placing our children in a program. But I don't recall ANY PARENT who discussed their cruel ex-husbands, any who compared themselves to Biblical characters, any who flaunted their business dealings, OR who thought their biological age deserved mentioning, OR who wrote an obituary of all their dead friends and family.
Give me a @#**@** break!
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On 2006-04-28 14:41:00, TheWho wrote:
"mcr84kar86, you are communicating well, they are trying to beat you down but they haven?t found that one Latin phrase to discredit your story yet. If you read thru many posts here, you will not see many accounts from the kids where they attempt to explain why they went to a TBS or why their parents felt compelled to send them, so your account isnt heavy ended. Most posts are written from the writers perspective and their feelings, it?s a natural standard here."
:wstupid: one of the most genuinely stupid people ever to have reproduced.
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Non cognitunt ergo non sunt.
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Canst thou believe thy living is a life, so stinkingly depending? Go mend, go mend.
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On 2006-04-28 18:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The Who, you are wrong. Many of us parents have discussed our decision about placing our children in a program. But I don't recall ANY PARENT who discussed their cruel ex-husbands, any who compared themselves to Biblical characters, any who flaunted their business dealings, OR who thought their biological age deserved mentioning, OR who wrote an obituary of all their dead friends and family.
Give me a @#**@** break!"
Hey thats the point !!! Its usually the kids who provided detail of what they went thru. It is refreshing hearing the parents detail for a change. There is nothing wrong with it, they are events and accounts surrounding her getting help for her child. You are clearly not a parent and havent read much around here.
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On 2006-04-28 20:25:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"Perhaps they have passed a point where a Latin phrase will no longer do them any good?
We get crushed in the first three, four years of school...We're trained to become parrots. We're trained to learn information and give it back at test time. But we're not taught to think. We're not taught how to access genius.
--Victor Villasenor, author of Burro Genius (2004)
"
Ha,Ha.... Good point!! No sense wasting a good latin phrase and going on ad nauseam if there can be no benefit.
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so, trusting that the "parties" here were solely "interested" in actual particulars in regards to the facts which lead up to the decision on placement, guilibility struck me and I (as always in life) jumped in with both feet - haha for me - fodder for the intellects - life is all up in the "proccessor" - as I said "wow" - thank God for life to live and the clean air of "reality" :silly:
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My, aren't you up early just trolling along?
Give it a rest!
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On 2006-04-29 05:47:00, mcr84kar86 wrote:
"so, trusting that the "parties" here were solely "interested" in actual particulars in regards to the facts which lead up to the decision on placement, guilibility struck me and I (as always in life) jumped in with both feet - haha for me - fodder for the intellects - life is all up in the "proccessor" - as I said "wow" - thank God for life to live and the clean air of "reality" :silly: "
I have just two words for you: GET HELP.
:roll:
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I have two more words for her: GO AWAY!
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On 2006-04-29 04:40:00, TheWho wrote:
"
On 2006-04-28 20:25:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"Perhaps they have passed a point where a Latin phrase will no longer do them any good?
We get crushed in the first three, four years of school...We're trained to become parrots. We're trained to learn information and give it back at test time. But we're not taught to think. We're not taught how to access genius.
--Victor Villasenor, author of Burro Genius (2004)
"
Ha,Ha.... Good point!! No sense wasting a good latin phrase and going on ad nauseam if there can be no benefit."
I am glad you two have so much fun here. I hope you realize to some of us this is not a laughing matter at all. Everyone in the world pretty much has the same response as this when you tell them about abusive programs. They laugh it all off like its a fucking joke and you are making shit up.
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On 2006-04-29 10:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-29 04:40:00, TheWho wrote:
"
On 2006-04-28 20:25:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"Perhaps they have passed a point where a Latin phrase will no longer do them any good?
We get crushed in the first three, four years of school...We're trained to become parrots. We're trained to learn information and give it back at test time. But we're not taught to think. We're not taught how to access genius.
--Victor Villasenor, author of Burro Genius (2004)
"
Ha,Ha.... Good point!! No sense wasting a good latin phrase and going on ad nauseam if there can be no benefit."
I am glad you two have so much fun here. I hope you realize to some of us this is not a laughing matter at all. Everyone in the world pretty much has the same response as this when you tell them about abusive programs. They laugh it all off like its a fucking joke and you are making shit up. "
You must be new here. We are not laughing at the kids or parents. This is about a very angry person who isn?t associated with any program, as a parent ,child or employee. But logs on to dump his anger on people here and then leaves. He tends to refer to latin phrases (as well as others) when he starts to lose an argument. That is the root of the humor not the topics being discussed.
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You're still conversing with make-believe people.
Get help.
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On 2006-04-29 10:25:00, Paul Smith wrote:
"You're still conversing with make-believe people.
Get help."
Ha, True, I feel like I am sometimes !! Just cant tell for sure with some Anon posts.
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Paulie, I thought you went bye-bye after you got your fanny smacked for maturely interfering with another site.
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On 2006-04-29 11:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Paulie, I thought you went bye-bye after you got your fanny smacked for maturely interfering with another site."
No I think that was Luke, he sleeps on the top bunk.
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(http://http://static.flickr.com/39/79527074_28fc47d39c.jpg?v=0)
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I am happy that your daughter is doing well. I am not really sure what your position is about mental health professionals and lawyers. Are you saying that they shouldn't be used. That the only people who can give good advice are the parents who have had problems with their kids?
The thing people need to understand is that consensus among mental health professionals is that programs are ineffective and possibly harmful. That is the conclusion of the Surgeon General of the United States. If someone thinks this conclusion is biased I would certainly be willing to analyze objections. If anything you would think that the government researchers might be pressured by the million dollars the politicians received to protect the programs. If your daughter was helped she is the EXCEPTION NOT THE RULE.
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BadPuppy, I would like to jump in and say I think it needs to be analyzed from a program by program bases. Some schools seem to have better success rates than others. For some schools the exception is if the child is not helped or doesn?t grow emotionally during their time there. There have been studies which show that these schools can be beneficial to some at-risk teens.
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Some schools seem to have better success rates than others. For some schools the exception is if the child is not helped or doesn?t grow emotionally during their time there.
Show the research. Back up your claim. How would you even know this?
There have been studies which show that these schools can be beneficial to some at-risk teens.
No, there hasn't been.
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On 2006-04-29 13:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Some schools seem to have better success rates than others. For some schools the exception is if the child is not helped or doesn?t grow emotionally during their time there.
Show the research. Back up your claim. How would you even know this?
There have been studies which show that these schools can be beneficial to some at-risk teens.
No, there hasn't been."
Well, If you look at the feed back from some of the schools here, like straight, WWASP schools read the kids/parents experiences and then compare them to schools like Carlbrook, ASR etc. you can see a difference in the number of negative responses. Read the effect some of these places have on the graduates, Clearly Straight seems to have more kids who did not do well after graduating vs some of the others.
There is a study performed on one of the TBS?s which concluded that kids do benefit. I don?t have the link presently, but I can locate it if interested.
There was also an account written by a Pulitzer prize winning author who followed a few students thru the program, very detailed account which shows the pros and cons.
[ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-04-29 14:15 ]
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since no one here would explain "trolling", I asked my college age son - he explained, it was people who sit online to "argue with the other particiapnts, just for the sake of argueing" - if that is true, then those who accuse me of "trolling", looks like that would be some significant, transference?
the other explanation he gave was, "people from an organization who are paid to interact with others for the sole purpose of pulling them in as customers?" - so, what is the purpose of sitting for hours, already convinced of your own points of view to solicit and query participants, with the sole intent of invalidating the information gained?
boredom?
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the question for a parent is:
do you listen to your child's school (DHHS)(in our case, they are trying to prevent being liable/responsible for the child going from a top performer to not being able to perform at all and them having to pay the bill for their responsibility of the child's "civil right to an education" at their expense?
do you listen to the psychiatrist, who keeps coming up with more complicated diagnosis/hospitilizations, "quiet rooms" that totally destroy the child's sense of any power?
do you listen to the insurance company, whose "case manager" want to dimish the problem to limit their liability and recommends 30 days here, 10 days there, 5 days here, then another 30 days here with the "revolving door" syndrome repeated over and over?
do you listen to the child's private therapist who is convincing you that 2 - 3 times a week would be better for the child's "getting more quickly through this phase of challenging development", but instead of any progress, you just get deeper and deeper down that black hole?
do you listen to the recovery people who advocate "tough love" and just lock your child out of your home to get some normalcy back and keep your friends?
do you listen to the child that tells you to let them decide to go and just live the way they want to with "friends"?
my experience with the ed con was, this was the first experience with one entity interacting with all the various "agencies" who became involved and was able to organize all the "data" from each agency and make reccommondations for various TBS's around the country that were options to choose from, both by the parent and the child
no matter what the choice (and ours had a very positive outcome) it is excrutiatingly painful to be seperated from your child and the guilt of the time of seperation, never goes away (we still are making up for the lost time every day)
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Well, If you look at the feed back from some of the schools here, like straight, WWASP schools read the kids/parents experiences and then compare them to schools like Carlbrook, ASR etc. you can see a difference in the number of negative responses.
I'm sorry, but I read your posts and you continually tell others not to believe posters on this site (the negative ones), yet you now want to use anonymous "positive" posts to prove a point? That just won't do.
As far a a pulitzer winner goes, that means nothing unless he's an experienced degreed professional in psychiatry or social work. Otherwise his observations or stories are merely his opinion, which would be basically worthless, just like the anonymous posts on this forum.
You said there have been "studies" but when I looked through your posts you only ever named one single study (done by a student) that was not a clinical trial of any sort. I read the study as well. The reults do not indicate that TBS's help anyone, but the results clearly show that there are many categories that show presenting problems continuing above the clinical threshhold after treatment.
This study is also a participant study with questionaires, not a clinical trial with a control group and an experimental group which is, of course, the sole and only way to assess effectivness. So this tudy is also "out" as evidence of helping.
This brings us back to only the word of the programs and the survivors which, according to what you have been presenting on this forum, must both be discounted as "unprovable."
Try to find some real research and get back to me if you find any. All I've been able to find is longitudinal clinical trials that show firm evidence of harm or complete ineffectiveness.
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Yawn.
Are you done yet?
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I'm sorry, but I read your posts and you continually tell others not to believe posters on this site (the negative ones).
This is troubling to me, I don?t believe this to be true can you provide a few links. I listen intently to both sides, maybe my remarks were taken out of context.
As far a a pulitzer winner goes, that means nothing unless he's an experienced degreed professional in psychiatry or social work. Otherwise his observations or stories are merely his opinion, which would be basically worthless, just like the anonymous posts on this forum.
Why do people continue to try to discredit authors like Maia Szalavitz and Dave Marcus because they are not degreed in each area they write in? This shows a total lack of understanding of what these people do.
You said there have been "studies" but when I looked through your posts you only ever named one single study (done by a student) that was not a clinical trial of any sort. I read the study as well. The reults do not indicate that TBS's help anyone, but the results clearly show that there are many categories that show presenting problems continuing above the clinical threshhold after treatment.
The study does indicate there are many areas to be improved upon and that further studies are needed. I think we can all agree that more studies are needed to reflect the current status of the schools which are improving on a daily basis.
Just a quote from the study:
V. Shapiros ?My findings contradict the idea that making fundamental changes during late adolescence is nearly impossible (Loeber, 1991) and also dispel the myth that long-term treatment is detrimental to normal development. The most important finding of this study is that residential treatment for troubled adolescents has the potential to be extremely effective. ?
http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_p ... hapiro.pdf (http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf)
This study is also a participant study with questionaires, not a clinical trial with a control group and an experimental group which is, of course, the sole and only way to assess effectivness. So this tudy is also "out" as evidence of helping.
Until other studies are done this is all we have. I think we should let the readers decide.
This brings us back to only the word of the programs and the survivors which, according to what you have been presenting on this forum, must both be discounted as "unprovable."
I agree besides the accounts of the Dave Marcus and Maia Szalavitzs of the world and collegiate studies we have to rely on the accounts of those who lived it and listen to their stories.
Try to find some real research and get back to me if you find any. All I've been able to find is longitudinal clinical trials that show firm evidence of harm or complete ineffectiveness.
I hear you and agree, We need more studies, as soon as they are done and published we will get them up on this board for all to read. Nothing is more important than independent studies in building a foundation for forming opinion and making decisions, but it seems there hasn?t been funding or an interest. Maybe this forum can help to raise the importance.
[ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-04-29 15:57 ]
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Just an after thought
The schools (and the models they use) are becoming more and more diverse. We can not continue to lump them all together and rate them as all good or all bad. Many of these schools are changing and evolving very quickly and others are not. Like the anon poster mention in a previous post we are relying on the accounts of parents and students. We need to be more diligent in uncovering the effects / success of each school independently so that parents can more easily choose what is right for their child and avoid the schools that could be disastrous for them. This forum could provide a better service to the parents who come here by doing this.
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The most important finding of this study is that residential treatment for troubled adolescents has the potential to be extremely effective.
Potential? Maybe. Currently effective? According to Ms. Shapiros own findings, no. Her findings show very clearly that the participants' problems did not abate due to treatment and continued to be above the clinical threshold. This means that the presenting problems for which the patients were entered into treatment still exist at levels that require treatment, thusly proving that the treatment they received was ineffective in treating the presenting issues.
It's your reference, but you have not interpreted the results correctly. You merely took the statement that TBS's may "potentially help" and turned it into "do help." The author never said that, nor do the statistical derivations support that conclusion. It is your conlusion, not hers.
Aside from this fact, the study model is very shaky, the population sample is entirely too small to be representative and is hand-picked by the facility and there is evident bias due to the fact that the patients and parents would be reluctant to report negative events for very obvious reasons.
As far as the authors are concerned, Marcus' findings are anecdotal and do not come from a representative sample and do not represent any clinical data while Szalavitz's come from anecdotal evidence from a legitimately sized temporally longitudinal sample and are buttressed by copious clinical research, which is abundantly cited in her work. So, if we're just comparing their work, Szalavitz' is entirely more legitmate.
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The dual program apologists have a free cup of coffee waiting for them on another aisle (thread).
This one needs a major cleanup from the pro-program garbage.
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On 2006-04-29 12:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"(http://http://static.flickr.com/39/79527074_28fc47d39c.jpg?v=0)"
:rofl:
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On 2006-04-29 16:25:00, TheWho wrote:
"Just an after thought
This forum could provide a better service to the parents who come here by doing this.
"
This forum isn't ever going to provide any service to anyone- much less parents. The foundation of this forum is that there are NO good programs. This message is promoted ad nauseum by profanity, anger and hatred of all programs who have ever even considered a residential program.
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All [parents]- not programs.
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Potential? Maybe. Currently effective? According to Ms. Shapiros own findings, no. Her findings show very clearly that the participants' problems did not abate due to treatment and continued to be above the clinical threshold. This means that the presenting problems for which the patients were entered into treatment still exist at levels that require treatment, thusly proving that the treatment they received was ineffective in treating the presenting issues.
That?s why it is important for people to read the study, I provided the link. Each person can come away with something different. What I see is a very clear indication that these programs are effective. I don?t want people to take my word for it or yours.
It's your reference, but you have not interpreted the results correctly. You merely took the statement that TBS's may "potentially help" and turned it into "do help." The author never said that, nor do the statistical derivations support that conclusion. It is your conlusion, not hers.
No not potentially help, you should read it: ?She said: The most important finding of this study is that residential treatment for troubled adolescents has the potential to be extremely effective
Aside from this fact, the study model is very shaky, the population sample is entirely too small to be representative and is hand-picked by the facility and there is evident bias due to the fact that the patients and parents would be reluctant to report negative events for very obvious reasons.
This one I can not help you with, you will have to petition Colgate University for a peer review and work with them. Maybe they will back down on their conclusions. I don?t have the time to do this.
As far as the authors are concerned, Marcus' findings are anecdotal and do not come from a representative sample and do not represent any clinical data while Szalavitz's come from anecdotal evidence from a legitimately sized temporally longitudinal sample and are buttressed by copious clinical research, which is abundantly cited in her work. So, if we're just comparing their work, Szalavitz' is entirely more legitmate.
So which one is the ?experienced degreed professional in psychiatry? that you were asking for to make them legitimate writers , in your previous post?
Anon, I think we are striving for the same thing which is the ?truth about the programs? but we just don?t agree on the path to get us there.
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On 2006-04-29 16:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-29 16:25:00, TheWho wrote:
"Just an after thought
This forum could provide a better service to the parents who come here by doing this.
"
This forum isn't ever going to provide any service to anyone- much less parents. The foundation of this forum is that there are NO good programs. This message is promoted ad nauseum by profanity, anger and hatred of all programs who have ever even considered a residential program."
NOW you're talking!
:nworthy:
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This is such a clusterfuck of a thread. The proper Trolls are gone, so wtf ever "TheWho" is supposed to be is spewing his nonsense.
That study done by whats-her-name was already debunked by yours truly! Its a waste of time to discuss again.
She had no control group, what she said the program utilized amounted to abuse in many instances, and she was unable to seperate the undue influence of the program on the responses given in the study, and due to a lack of a control group what effect the program had vs "growing up".
Or, in other words, she has zero proof it actually accomplished anything, it admittedly abused children, but she insists it could be effective treatment, despite the total lack of evidence.
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This forum isn't ever going to provide any service to anyone- much less parents. The foundation of this forum is that there are NO good programs. This message is promoted ad nauseum by profanity, anger and hatred of all programs who have ever even considered a residential program."
Ha,Ha, that is classic. Whether you believe it or not (or want it) this forum is providing a service to parents. But I do agree the communication is served on a platter of "profanity, anger and hatred".
I can see why some people don?t log-in, that?s a great post.
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On 2006-04-29 16:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-29 16:25:00, TheWho wrote:
"Just an after thought
This forum could provide a better service to the parents who come here by doing this.
"
This forum isn't ever going to provide any service to anyone- much less parents. The foundation of this forum is that there are NO good programs. This message is promoted ad nauseum by profanity, anger and hatred of all programs who have ever even considered a residential program."
::boohoo::
Program parents are SUCH control freaks ... sigh, when will they ever learn? Program survivors RULE.
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On 2006-04-29 16:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-29 16:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-29 16:25:00, TheWho wrote:
"Just an after thought
This forum could provide a better service to the parents who come here by doing this.
"
This forum isn't ever going to provide any service to anyone- much less parents. The foundation of this forum is that there are NO good programs. This message is promoted ad nauseum by profanity, anger and hatred of all programs who have ever even considered a residential program."
NOW you're talking!
:wstupid: Can we get over this nonsense already?
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On 2006-04-29 16:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-29 16:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
This forum isn't ever going to provide any service to anyone- much less parents. The foundation of this forum is that there are NO good programs. This message is promoted ad nauseum by profanity, anger and hatred of all programs who have ever even considered a residential program."
::boohoo::
Program parents are SUCH control freaks ... sigh, when will they ever learn? Program survivors RULE."
That entire statement is nonsensical. Its nothing but an emotionally-charged dismissal of anything said on fornits contrary to the position of the anonymous poster making it.
1+1 is still 2 if I say "fuck". Being a ninny about perceived profanity doesnt make anyone right or wrong.
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On 2006-04-29 16:45:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"This is such a clusterfuck of a thread. The proper Trolls are gone, so wtf ever "TheWho" is supposed to be is spewing his nonsense.
That study done by whats-her-name was already debunked by yours truly! Its a waste of time to discuss again.
She had no control group, what she said the program utilized amounted to abuse in many instances, and she was unable to seperate the undue influence of the program on the responses given in the study, and due to a lack of a control group what effect the program had vs "growing up".
Or, in other words, she has zero proof it actually accomplished anything, it admittedly abused children, but she insists it could be effective treatment, despite the total lack of evidence.
"
Hey Niles, welcome back, whats your connection here again? (only kidding)
That study done by whats-her-name was already debunked by yours truly! Its a waste of time to discuss again.
If it was debunked I havent received the notification from Colgates' peer review, yet. Oh, wait a minute I think you said you debunked it, oh thats different, okay lets throw that study away.
Where is your Study on ASR? Thought so, anyway, any luck getting your GED?
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On 2006-04-29 16:53:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"
On 2006-04-29 16:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-29 16:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
This forum isn't ever going to provide any service to anyone- much less parents. The foundation of this forum is that there are NO good programs. This message is promoted ad nauseum by profanity, anger and hatred of all programs who have ever even considered a residential program."
::boohoo::
Program parents are SUCH control freaks ... sigh, when will they ever learn? Program survivors RULE."
That entire statement is nonsensical. Its nothing but an emotionally-charged dismissal of anything said on fornits contrary to the position of the anonymous poster making it.
1+1 is still 2 if I say "fuck". Being a ninny about perceived profanity doesnt make anyone right or wrong."
:tup: :tup: :tup:
Of couse, kids who swear are at risk of being instutionalized while their parents use "nice" words to describe their joy in paying to have their child "ed-educated" by people with a high school education.
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TheWho did sputter:
Anon, I think we are striving for the same thing which is the ?truth about the programs? but we just don?t agree on the path to get us there.
Riiiiiiight.
(http://http://www.salagir.com/gfx/troll-web.jpg)
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On 2006-04-29 16:59:00, TheWho wrote:
"
On 2006-04-29 16:45:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"This is such a clusterfuck of a thread. The proper Trolls are gone, so wtf ever "TheWho" is supposed to be is spewing his nonsense.
That study done by whats-her-name was already debunked by yours truly! Its a waste of time to discuss again.
She had no control group, what she said the program utilized amounted to abuse in many instances, and she was unable to seperate the undue influence of the program on the responses given in the study, and due to a lack of a control group what effect the program had vs "growing up".
Or, in other words, she has zero proof it actually accomplished anything, it admittedly abused children, but she insists it could be effective treatment, despite the total lack of evidence.
"
Hey Niles, welcome back, whats your connection here again? (only kidding)
That study done by whats-her-name was already debunked by yours truly! Its a waste of time to discuss again.
If it was debunked I havent received the notification from Colgates' peer review, yet. Oh, wait a minute I think you said you debunked it, oh thats different, okay lets throw that study away.
Where is your Study on ASR? Thought so, anyway, any luck getting your GED?
"
ASR v. WWASPS. Two different brands of the same pork and beans.
:smokin:
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Nice one, Luke!
::bigsmilebounce:: ::drummer:: ::rocker::
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No not potentially help, you should read it: She said: "The most important finding of this study is that residential treatment for troubled adolescents has the potential to be extremely effective."
I did read it. The problem is that you emphasize "extrememly effective" and discard the qualifier "potentially."
Potentially means "with a possibility of becoming actual" as in "he is potentially dangerous" or "potentially useful."
It means, quite unequivocally, "currently isn't." You have completely changed the meaning of words in the English language to support your position. This is an extreme fallacy in your argument. Please re-read what you wrote for comprehension. The author states that currently the TBS modality is ineffective by saying it could potentially be effective. This is unambiguously stating that currently it is not effective by definition, a conclusion born out by the collected data as described in my previous post.
That?s why it is important for people to read the study, I provided the link. Each person can come away with something different.
This is antithetical to the scientific method. If you claim the study is valid then you claim two things: one, it is repeatable, and two, it's results are not open to interpretation, they are documented fact. Your reasoning is fallacious. If the study is valid it simply is not open to interpretation.
What I see is a very clear indication that these programs are effective.
This is your opinion based on false premises. The study itself says the opposite and the data bear out the conlcusion that there is clinically significant maldaption after TBS treatment which proves that the TBS was not effective.
Your opinion, while you are entitled to it, is factually wrong, and provably so, from the reference you yourself provided.
This one I can not help you with, you will have to petition Colgate University for a peer review and work with them. Maybe they will back down on their conclusions.
This is simply ridiculous. This study is posted on a research website. Nowhere does Colgate University make any claims about the validity or conclusions of this study. They only provided the bandwidth to post it. If you think otherwise, provide the link where Colgate (or anyone for that matter) says that this graduate student study represents the views or opinions of the university, or anyone else for that matter. That argument is a dead dog from the get-go.
So which one is the ?experienced degreed professional in psychiatry? that you were asking for to make them legitimate writers , in your previous post?
As I said before neither writer can effectively claim to be an authority on the subject, however, as compared on their relative merit it is quite obvious that Ms. Szalavitz's work is in agreement with the available clinical research on adolescent treatment, while Mr. Marcus' work cites no studies or casework and provides only his opinoin based on a small sample of children for whom no follow-up testing or study was completed. Based on relative merit, Ms. Szalavitz's work is inherently more revealing and is buttressed by several scientific studies while Mr. Marcus makes no claims of the treatment's validity and cites no relevent research.
Clearly, you have no understanding of research science and have made completely invalid conclusions based on false premises and "doctored" language.
Again, you are entitled to your opinion, but you are clearly wrong just as if you said 2+2=5. You are factually incorrect and facts are not open to interpretation. Your argument is fallacious in its entirety and therefore your conlusion is completely false.
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I did read it. The problem is that you emphasize "extrememly effective" and discard the qualifier "potentially."
Potentially means "with a possibility of becoming actual" as in "he is potentially dangerous" or "potentially useful."
Okay, I know this is tough for you, so I will go slow. Ms Shapiro stated (among many other things) that: most important finding of this study is that residential treatment for troubled adolescents has the potential to be extremely effective.
Which I read as the program is effective but not Extremely effective and there is more work to do.
This is why it is important for people to read the study !!!! How can I be any clearer !!!!
No you cant interpret the numbers (raw data), but you can come to different conclusions, people need to read and think !!!!.
This is antithetical to the scientific method. If you claim the study is valid then you claim two things: one, it is repeatable, and two, it's results are not open to interpretation, they are documented fact. Your reasoning is fallacious. If the study is valid it simply is not open to interpretation.
This is priceless, I wish you had a log-in name !!! No, No ,No !!! So if I write a report I should designate one person to read it and just tell him or her to summarize it to everyone else and tell them what I mean?? Let me clear this up ---
Yes it is open to interpretation !!! If 10 people read it they will come away with questions which will fall out into a discussion, which will eventually come to a higher level debate if the discussion(s) is not resolved. The debate will require rules on an even higher level to determine outcome. Its not up to me !!
As I said before neither writer can effectively claim to be an authority on the subject, however, as compared on their relative merit it is quite obvious that Ms. Szalavitz's work is in agreement with the available clinical research on adolescent treatment, while Mr. Marcus' work cites no studies or casework and provides only his opinoin based on a small sample of children for whom no follow-up testing or study was completed.
Nice try But, Not so fast,I think you did a little back peddling, okay. Just to refresh your memory here is what you said:
As far a a pulitzer winner goes, that means nothing unless he's an experienced degreed professional in psychiatry or social work. Otherwise his observations or stories are merely his opinion, which would be basically worthless, just like the anonymous posts on this forum.
You cant have it both ways, you have to discredit both authors unless you produce the degrees (as you required), lets stay focused.
Nowhere does Colgate University make any claims about the validity or conclusions of this study.
Exactly, so it is up to the reader to determine if they feel it is a valid study to base their decision on. Not you or me or any one person. If you want to challenge the study, though, you will need to contact the researcher or the University. Like I said I don?t have time for that, but you may try if you like.
?.You are factually incorrect and facts are not open to interpretation?..
You are right, but the study is open to interpretation, as you stated earlier. I based my conclusions on the study at hand, the facts, as I see them are the raw data, you can conclude what you will.
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Last post was mine.
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So were almost all of the programmie posts in this thread, including the other registered trolls.
You're not fooling anyone.
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You're shot. Your comments make no sense. You have no grasp of either the English language or the scientific method, or basic logic for that matter.
I'm sorry, but you are just plain wrong. No qualifiers, no insults, but just plain wrong nonetheless.
I'd suggest that if you intend to discuss these subjects that you have some kind of background or education about the subject matter. I've read your posts and what they boil down to is your personal opinion and a single correlational study that you fail to comprehend correctly.
I see that you've taken an "intellectual flogging" by many posters here, some of whom are mere children, and that you resort to insulting them as a defense mechanism to admitting your fallacious logic. It appears that you have no evidence to support your position, but that certainly doesn't stop you from repeating yourself quite literally hundreds of times.
Feel free to continue to opine, because the more you say, the more you erode your own position.
Cetainly you don't need to "slow down" for me (again, resorting to insults and affrontery when confronted when your untenable position is exposed). To make a simple metaphor, you're already in the "break-down" lane.
Thank you for completely relieving yourself of any credibility.
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On 2006-04-29 19:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You're shot. Your comments make no sense. You have no grasp of either the English language or the scientific method, or basic logic for that matter.
I'm sorry, but you are just plain wrong. No qualifiers, no insults, but just plain wrong nonetheless.
I'd suggest that if you intend to discuss these subjects that you have some kind of background or education about the subject matter. I've read your posts and what they boil down to is your personal opinion and a single correlational study that you fail to comprehend correctly.
I see that you've taken an "intellectual flogging" by many posters here, some of whom are mere children, and that you resort to insulting them as a defense mechanism to admitting your fallacious logic. It appears that you have no evidence to support your position, but that certainly doesn't stop you from repeating yourself quite literally hundreds of times.
Feel free to continue to opine, because the more you say, the more you erode your own position.
Cetainly you don't need to "slow down" for me (again, resorting to insults and affrontery when confronted when your untenable position is exposed). To make a simple metaphor, you're already in the "break-down" lane.
Thank you for completely relieving yourself of any credibility. "
Dont feel too defeated. You made a good run at it. As I see it "It is what it is" Let the studies stand on their own merit, put them out for people to read and interpret as they may, I dont mind the insults as long as they get people to think, read a few of the non angry posts. I know your frustration, I am in a hugh minority here.
Got to go....
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Dont feel too defeated. You made a good run at it. As I see it "It is what it is" Let the studies stand on their own merit, put them out for people to read and interpret as they may, I dont mind the insults as long as they get people to think, read a few of the non angry posts. I know your frustration, I am in a hugh minority here.
Got to go...."
Luke makes the twirling-finger-next-to-head 'is this guy crazy or what?' motion.
Could you tell me whatever you're on? Looks like some really good shit- I know guys who might want to synthesize it.
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Fuckin' login routines.
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"As I see it.."
This is your problem. Everything after "as I see it" is bunk. You've been thoroughly outwitted and intellectually overmatched for the umpteenth time and all you can say is "don't feel too defeated." How foolish.
You shouldn't be offended by any insults. You are the first one to hurl them in every thread you insinuate yourself. Someone insulting you is simply repaying you in kind.
"Let the studies stand on their own merit..."
I think you misspoke again. It's singular, as in only one study. That's the entirety of your position.
"Got to go..."
You're not fooling anyone. You're not going anywhere. You can't help yourself.
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The most interesting about the Shapiro study is the fact the parents rated their kids daily hapiness at 5.6 on a scale of 7 with seven being the best rating. And at the same time on the BASC which is considered to have good reliablity and validity coeficients, the kids measure in the bottom 2 percent on the depression scale. If it was just one scale you might raise the arguement that it was a statistical anomaly. But there are four other scales INCLUDING COMMUNICATION WITH PARENTS which are similarly as low. THE PARENTS WERE TOTALLY OUT OF TOUCH WITH THE FEELINGS OF THEIR KIDS. If there is another interpretation I'd like to listen to it. The Shapiro results seem to suggest, that one reason for dysfunctional family dynamics is the parents have a distorted view of their childs emotional life.
Other factors leading to this result might possibly be a deliberate attempt by parents to bias the results.
Cognitive dissonance, the need to align our beiefs with our actions. Because I spent all that money and took a year out of my kids life my beliefs will be adjusted to reflect the rightousness of my actions.
Oh! and there is a chance, smaller than winning the lottery, that the parent observations are a better measurement than the test results.
I wonder why the industry which is planning on doing massive questionaires never uses a control group? Could it be they know something they don't want the rest of us to know. Questionairs are being used as nothing more than slick marketing. Like 4 out of 5 dentists use Crest. Because of how sophisticated the marketing of these programs are, I do understand, without agreeing with it, how parents make the decision to place their wild ones in residential treatment. For me, its a bit like going to a car mechanic. I cannot even formulate the right questions so how do you know if you are being ripped off. Sometimes the answer is when the car has to return to the shop, along with 75% of the residentialy treat population.
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Cognitive dissonance, the need to align our beiefs with our actions. Because I spent all that money and took a year out of my kids life my beliefs will be adjusted to reflect the rightousness of my actions.
Bang-on, puppy.
The rest of your comments are deadly accurate as well, but this is the crux of the phenomenon. StrugglingParents are so heavily invested financially and emotionally that to conclude they were mistaken is tantamount to admitting they ruined their child's immediate past and squandered their future while simultaneously spending a load on a lemon.
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Right. Like my first reply to the troll...
Stupid emotional nonsense to try to justify their actions and get attention.
Why are we 10 pages into this trollbait? :roll:
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On 2006-04-29 20:28:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"
On 2006-04-29 20:26:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"Right. Like my first reply to the troll...
Stupid emotional nonsense to try to justify their actions and get attention.
Why are we 10 pages into this trollbait? :silly:
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On 2006-04-29 20:08:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"I farted.
I know.
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There is not a good way to apply scientific methods to this whole phenomenon of warehousing children. Even with experimental/control groups, each child's individual perceived experience is so vastly different that there is no way to measure the outcomes.
And how do you "qualify" successful outcomes? Is it academic success? Not being drug addicted? Being alive? Success for our family is considered under achievement by others.
I've read the books, the studies, and viewed the whole experience first hand. Sorry, the programs don't work. The best outcome that I can see, is that it gives the teens a year to mature, to get away from drug heads, and possible stay alive. I'm convinced that the costs outweigh the "benefits" even in a non-abusive, non Behavior-Mod program.
In hindsight, it is my lowly, humble and non-professional opinion, and that these very costly programs(monetary and emotional costs) are no more effective, produce no lower recidivism rates than incarceration. [ This Message was edited by: Truth Searcher on 2006-04-30 04:15 ][ This Message was edited by: Truth Searcher on 2006-04-30 04:18 ][ This Message was edited by: Truth Searcher on 2006-04-30 04:19 ]
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On 2006-04-30 04:15:00, Truth Searcher wrote:
"There is not a good way to apply scientific methods to this whole phenomenon of warehousing children. Even with experimental/control groups, each child's individual perceived experience is so vastly different that there is no way to measure the outcomes.
And how do you "qualify" successful outcomes? Is it academic success? Not being drug addicted? Being alive? Success for our family is considered under achievement by others.
I've read the books, the studies, and viewed the whole experience first hand. Sorry, the programs don't work. The best outcome that I can see, is that it gives the teens a year to mature, to get away from drug heads, and possible stay alive. I'm convinced that the costs outweigh the "benefits" even in a non-abusive, non Behavior-Mod program.
In hindsight, it is my lowly, humble and non-professional opinion, and that these very costly programs(monetary and emotional costs) are no more effective, produce no lower recidivism rates than incarceration. [ This Message was edited by: Truth Searcher on 2006-04-30 04:15 ][ This Message was edited by: Truth Searcher on 2006-04-30 04:18 ][ This Message was edited by: Truth Searcher on 2006-04-30 04:19 ]"
Yes, even the year away from drugheads and stay alive, as you say, is beneficial to some kids. Not sure I agree that the cost outweighs the benefits, but all kids do not benefit at the same level, some not at all.
Measuring the outcomes of these kids from the programs will be a difficult task but I feel will be worth the effort if it can bring to light the non abusive and abusive programs.
Its good to see some people reading the studies and available books.
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I'm sorry I disagree.
stripping away the freedom and rights of a human being without a credible diagnosis or a conviction is intrinsically undeniably wrong.
Just because we are talking about children does not take away their status as valuable human beings.
Further, the most unforgiveable abuse you can inflict upon someone is to impose upon that person ideas and thoughts that are not their own.
The very practice of involuntary confinement for children whose problems usually amount to simple growing pains and teenaged acting out is unsupportable. There are no "good" behaviour modification programs, there are only subtle programs and brutal programs.
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On 2006-04-30 05:49:00, MightyAardvark wrote:
"I'm sorry I disagree.
stripping away the freedom and rights of a human being without a credible diagnosis or a conviction is intrinsically undeniably wrong.
Just because we are talking about children does not take away their status as valuable human beings.
Further, the most unforgiveable abuse you can inflict upon someone is to impose upon that person ideas and thoughts that are not their own.
The very practice of involuntary confinement for children whose problems usually amount to simple growing pains and teenaged acting out is unsupportable. There are no "good" behaviour modification programs, there are only subtle programs and brutal programs.
"
Thats what makes this forum so powerful, the differences in opinion and debate, personally I think there are schools which work well and situations where kids need to be removed from their enviornment and allow them to grow.
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On 2006-04-30 05:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-30 05:49:00, MightyAardvark wrote:
"I'm sorry I disagree.
stripping away the freedom and rights of a human being without a credible diagnosis or a conviction is intrinsically undeniably wrong.
Just because we are talking about children does not take away their status as valuable human beings.
Further, the most unforgiveable abuse you can inflict upon someone is to impose upon that person ideas and thoughts that are not their own.
The very practice of involuntary confinement for children whose problems usually amount to simple growing pains and teenaged acting out is unsupportable. There are no "good" behaviour modification programs, there are only subtle programs and brutal programs.
"
Thats what makes this forum so powerful, the differences in opinion and debate, personally I think there are schools which work well and situations where kids need to be removed from their enviornment and allow them to grow."
I agree, there is room to debate and disagree on these forums and that's very useful and healthy. I've already been persuaded to alter my position on a few things slightly since I've been here. There are good arguments to be had all round. Eventually I think we all need to start working towards a consensus position and working together to get something done but in the meantime healthy debate is great.
As to your final point, nothing I have ever said should be construed as disagreeing with your points there, however I think that it is important to note that there are ways of achieving your goals that don't involve incarcerating a child that has done nothing wrong.
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Just to set the record straight, Straight, Inc. was not a school. It was a concentration camp where 99% of the kids (including myself) did not have a drug problem.
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Has anyone else noticed the people who come here and take a position but were never involved themselves are easily swayed? Overlord for example. There is a reason why more program survivors don't post here.
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On 2006-04-30 05:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-30 05:49:00, MightyAardvark wrote:
"I'm sorry I disagree.
stripping away the freedom and rights of a human being without a credible diagnosis or a conviction is intrinsically undeniably wrong.
Just because we are talking about children does not take away their status as valuable human beings.
Further, the most unforgiveable abuse you can inflict upon someone is to impose upon that person ideas and thoughts that are not their own.
The very practice of involuntary confinement for children whose problems usually amount to simple growing pains and teenaged acting out is unsupportable. There are no "good" behaviour modification programs, there are only subtle programs and brutal programs.
"
Thats what makes this forum so powerful, the differences in opinion and debate, personally I think there are schools which work well and situations where kids need to be removed from their enviornment and allow them to grow."
I believe it should be the parent who is removed from the home, forcibly taken against their will to a secret hidden-away facility where they will get the proper training they need to be a good parent. WWASPS for parents, have you not heard of them? The kid pays them thousands of dollars to keep their parent locked up, until they show that they can be a good parent. They are forced to take brainwashing sessions, and if they don't comply, they are punished severely. Behavior modification works, but not for kids, only parents.
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I believe it should be treated as a family issue, not just the parents or just the kids, but everyone together. There should not be any lock-ups unless a person is a threat to themselves or someone else.
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[qoute]There should not be any lock-ups unless a person is a threat to themselves or someone else.[/quote]
This is already law. Parents skirt the system entirely and engage in an unregulated business where they can lock up their child for anything they choose. It's a nice thought, but it's just that, a thought. So long as parents have the choice to send their kid to an abusive camp, I am betting they will. Who knows why though.
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Creating a good research design with a control group is not that difficult. You can two or three groups. For example residential treatment vs family therapy, and no intervention. You measure each group according a variety of success standards such as educational achievement, job attainment, social success, attitude twords the future, drug use, reincarceration rate, etc. Things like job status, education status, are verified by researchers and can be used as an internal validity test for the answers for the rest of the measures. Throw in a couple of matching subpopulations. You check aditudes and relationships as well as psychopathology using a standard well validated test like the BASC, MMPI. Give the tests at entry into treatment, exit from from treatment and desired intervals such as one year three years etc. Combine results. You measures each groups performance at designated intervals.
Hell ya! I'd pay attention to a study like this. Now imagine how good a study could be designed by independent top researchers. I'm sure that my design has problems, it only took me 15 minuits to come up with it. I just put this out to show the type of research the industry refuses to do because they seem afraid of the results.
[ This Message was edited by: Badpuppy on 2006-04-30 10:28 ]
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On 2006-04-30 05:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-30 05:49:00, MightyAardvark wrote:
"I'm sorry I disagree.
stripping away the freedom and rights of a human being without a credible diagnosis or a conviction is intrinsically undeniably wrong.
Just because we are talking about children does not take away their status as valuable human beings.
Further, the most unforgiveable abuse you can inflict upon someone is to impose upon that person ideas and thoughts that are not their own.
The very practice of involuntary confinement for children whose problems usually amount to simple growing pains and teenaged acting out is unsupportable. There are no "good" behaviour modification programs, there are only subtle programs and brutal programs.
"
Thats what makes this forum so powerful, the differences in opinion and debate, personally I think there are schools which work well and situations where kids need to be removed from their enviornment and allow them to grow."
"...removed from their environment..." is just newspeak for 'isolation and control.' It is a misrepesentation used on many programs' websites and in their literature.[ This Message was edited by: AtomicAnt on 2006-04-30 10:58 ]
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Measuring the outcomes of these kids from the programs will be a difficult task but I feel will be worth the effort if it can bring to light the non abusive and abusive programs.
This does not make sense to me. Are you assuming that a good outcome is indicative of a non-abusive program or vice versa?
One must also ask what constitutes a 'good outcome.'
All of the medical/psychiatric/psychological studies I have read usually pertain to a very specific diagnosis and compare the effectiveness of very specific treatments on alleviating the symptoms and/or causes of the illness.
These tough-love programs are very general in that they are trying to change the core values of an individual subject. They believe by changing these core values, they can 'cure' a wide range of disorders (see their web sites for lists).
What they engage in is not really behavior modification so much as ideology modification.
There is more to these programs than efficacy. Even if they are proven to 'work,' one must question what 'work' means. Is it acceptable to use force to alter an individual's self-perception and set of core values? Is it acceptable to do this against the subject's will?
Who gets to chose which values are desirable? Who chooses what the 'correct' self perception should be?
Studies of efficacy only cloud the real issue, which is individual rights. More specifically, the rights of youth vs the rights of parents and programs to forcibly incarcerate and psychologically alter them. If it were illegal to forcibly incarcerate them, it is less likely they would be vulnerable to abuses.
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On 2006-04-30 11:40:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
Measuring the outcomes of these kids from the programs will be a difficult task but I feel will be worth the effort if it can bring to light the non abusive and abusive programs.
This does not make sense to me. Are you assuming that a good outcome is indicative of a non-abusive program or vice versa?
One must also ask what constitutes a 'good outcome.'
All of the medical/psychiatric/psychological studies I have read usually pertain to a very specific diagnosis and compare the effectiveness of very specific treatments on alleviating the symptoms and/or causes of the illness.
These tough-love programs are very general in that they are trying to change the core values of an individual subject. They believe by changing these core values, they can 'cure' a wide range of disorders (see their web sites for lists).
What they engage in is not really behavior modification so much as ideology modification.
There is more to these programs than efficacy. Even if they are proven to 'work,' one must question what 'work' means. Is it acceptable to use force to alter an individual's self-perception and set of core values? Is it acceptable to do this against the subject's will?
Who gets to chose which values are desirable? Who chooses what the 'correct' self perception should be?
Studies of efficacy only cloud the real issue, which is individual rights. More specifically, the rights of youth vs the rights of parents and programs to forcibly incarcerate and psychologically alter them. If it were illegal to forcibly incarcerate them, it is less likely they would be vulnerable to abuses."[ This Message was edited by: AtomicAnt on 2006-04-30 11:43 ]
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"...removed from their environment..." is just newspeak for 'isolation and control.' It is a misrepesentation used on many programs' websites and in their literature
True it could mean many things, but some kids need to be removed from their present influences which are causing them to be at risk, they don?t necessarily have to go to a place that isolates them and controls them.
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On 2006-04-30 11:41:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
"
On 2006-04-30 11:40:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
Measuring the outcomes of these kids from the programs will be a difficult task but I feel will be worth the effort if it can bring to light the non abusive and abusive programs.
This does not make sense to me. Are you assuming that a good outcome is indicative of a non-abusive program or vice versa?
One must also ask what constitutes a 'good outcome.'
All of the medical/psychiatric/psychological studies I have read usually pertain to a very specific diagnosis and compare the effectiveness of very specific treatments on alleviating the symptoms and/or causes of the illness.
These tough-love programs are very general in that they are trying to change the core values of an individual subject. They believe by changing these core values, they can 'cure' a wide range of disorders (see their web sites for lists).
What they engage in is not really behavior modification so much as ideology modification.
There is more to these programs than efficacy. Even if they are proven to 'work,' one must question what 'work' means. Is it acceptable to use force to alter an individual's self-perception and set of core values? Is it acceptable to do this against the subject's will?
Who gets to chose which values are desirable? Who chooses what the 'correct' self perception should be?
Studies of efficacy only cloud the real issue, which is individual rights. More specifically, the rights of youth vs the rights of parents and programs to forcibly incarcerate and psychologically alter them. If it were illegal to forcibly incarcerate them, it is less likely they would be vulnerable to abuses."[ This Message was edited by: AtomicAnt on 2006-04-30 11:43 ]"
It is difficult to determine positive outcome when each persons measurement/goal is different. A goal would need to be developed for each person (who determines the goal?) and then measurements would need to be taken at graduation and periodically after that to capture the long term effectiveness.
It would be difficult but I believe the key would be to agree on a way to measure (freeze the process) and then repeat this with each group and this will enable a school to view their trends from year to year to see if they are improving or not. There are just so many variables.(i.e. the kids individual goals, improvements, environmental changes, leaving the program early, change in faculty, training, measuring techniques etc.) to determine success for each graduating class. Once a trend is established and you can effect change and see it in your results other schools could begin to bench mark the same measurement tool and we could start seeing the differences from school to school.
The chances of this happening is almost nil but to begin agreeing on a way to measure success/failure would be a start.
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"Studies of efficacy only cloud the real issue, which is individual rights." Individual rights are one issue but exposing sham and biased research is also important. Hopefully strong evidence that the parents are wasting their money translates into fewer commitments. Exposing sham research is also helpful for independent professionals in the field because it effects their child care strategies. One of the reasons for doing good outcome research with control groups is to expose the fallacies of the claims of the hurt child industry.
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On 2006-04-30 16:29:00, Badpuppy wrote:
""Studies of efficacy only cloud the real issue, which is individual rights." Individual rights are one issue but exposing sham and biased research is also important. Hopefully strong evidence that the parents are wasting their money translates into fewer commitments. Exposing sham research is also helpful for independent professionals in the field because it effects their child care strategies. One of the reasons for doing good outcome research with control groups is to expose the fallacies of the claims of the hurt child industry."
With good studies this would all come out and be placed on the table. If parents saw this as a waste of money or children were being hurt by the industry it would be huge. It would force the places to change or close down from lack of enrollment. The better school models would expand and do well. This would cause a shift in the industry, which is probably needed based on some of the programs still in operation.
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[
I believe it should be the parent who is removed from the home, forcibly taken against their will to a secret hidden-away facility where they will get the proper training they need to be a good parent. WWASPS for parents, have you not heard of them? The kid pays them thousands of dollars to keep their parent locked up, until they show that they can be a good parent. They are forced to take brainwashing sessions, and if they don't comply, they are punished severely. Behavior modification works, but not for kids, only parents. "
[/quote]
:nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy:
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[br>
Instead of, after two months coming home, she then went to another tremendous TBS, that SHE says, was so helpful to her to help her get out of her confusion.
Well, yes I know it is hard to believe but some of these TBS actually are much better then what some kids experience in their own homes from their own families. The abuse etc. is actually a step up for some kids. :scared:
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On 2006-04-29 20:26:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"Right. Like my first reply to the troll...
Stupid emotional nonsense to try to justify their actions and get attention.
Why are we 10 pages into this trollbait? :roll: "
I don't understand you guys. I'm sure this post will be ripped apart just like all of the previous ones of people who don't entirely agree with you. And I'm sure its not going to be as articulate as some of the posts you all have made. But oh well.
I'm not sure what the exact meaning of a troll is on this site, but from what I gather from other topics I've posted on, its someone from a treatment center coming here to pose as a student or parent or something, just to defend it, or just cuase trouble.
I am sure though, that the meaning does NOT include a long winded, (yes sometimes emotionally confused), treament parent. I'm Mcr84kar86's daughter (and you can check that in the HLA topic, where I post regularly.) The school whose name she didn't want to divulge is HLA (they can't do anything to me, and I'm not worried about it) and there's a good reason she didnt want to divulge the name. We were already threatened by this place's laywers almost 2 years ago because of my posting on this site right after I graduated.
I dont understand. You hold this site as an open forum to express all ideas and hold intellecual (sp?) conversations about the circumstances of treatment... Yet when one person (who yes, trust me, i KNOW is long winded and sometimes not very focused in her arguments, lol I live with her) comes in here, sharing a little bit of a different view, this post reverted to an elementary school playground where all you all could think to do was metaphorically pull her hair and push her around. So congratulations on that, for one.
My mother is not pro-programs. She acknowledges the two programs that DID in fact have a positive influence on my life, New Haven and Walkabout. She is also (like I am) is supportive of whatever programs like HLA have coming to them. And we both hope that it is equivilant to the suffering that every student and parent endured, for whatever length of their stay or connection with the school may have been.
I'm not sure what the point of this is, I know my mother can handle her own battles... I just felt the need to post my frustration with this board for the ignorance and immaturity displayed.
I hope to see more tolerance for people with different perspectives and experiences. This blantent attack on my mother for her shortcomings seems very familiar to the tactics of one certain treatment center. First you debase them as a person, and establish their perspectives to be inaccurate and altogether imbicilic. Then you all have free reign to just simply ignore whatever points she may present. Grow up. All of you.
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::troll:: :rofl: :roll:
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Hi Lacey, Well said !!Your start ?I'm sure this post will be ripped apart just like all of the previous ones of people who don't entirely agree with you?.? is very typical and I had to laugh. Obviously you have read few posts here, before posting yourself, but decided to post anyway. Good for you.
Most of the people you are talking about that jump in and rip people apart are harmless ex-employees who are bitter, kids who are not affiliated or attended a program looking for a place to dump their anger (road rage without a car). But if you can look beyond them there are many people who are reading/listening and are learning from your experiences and many others who will engage in conversation/debate eventually.
The important thing is to tell your story and don?t be swayed by those who are closed minded and will never understand nor grow from others. Some are not here to learn.
Besides all of that it takes guts to stand up for a parent on this forum, it might be a first.
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Most of the people you are talking about that jump in and rip people apart are harmless ex-employees who are bitter, kids who are not affiliated or attended a program looking for a place to dump their anger (road rage without a car).
This is so untrue. The worst behavior on this board (that isn't by minors) is undoubtedly the parents who sent their kids to programs.
The smugness and the arrogance with which they discount reason, logic and science in favor of hyperbole, fallacy and faith is simply astounding.
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On 2006-05-01 07:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Most of the people you are talking about that jump in and rip people apart are harmless ex-employees who are bitter, kids who are not affiliated or attended a program looking for a place to dump their anger (road rage without a car).
This is so untrue. The worst behavior on this board (that isn't by minors) is undoubtedly the parents who sent their kids to programs.
The smugness and the arrogance with which they discount reason, logic and science in favor of hyperbole, fallacy and faith is simply astounding. "
Well,thats fair, I guess it depends on perspective and the threads you are involved in. Just to clarify, I am speaking about the people and discussions I have encountered here.
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If Lacey's Mom had been upfront about what program she was talking about--HLA--and had left out all the nonsense about her ex-husband, thriving business, boyfriend, Godliness, and the other BS, people may have taken her postings a bit more seriously. People here have a bit of a problem with parents who place their kid in program AFTER program AFTER program; and who THEN come on here YAKKING like they know everything. I still have a problem with the multiple placements of this girl.
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On 2006-05-01 07:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Most of the people you are talking about that jump in and rip people apart are harmless ex-employees who are bitter, kids who are not affiliated or attended a program looking for a place to dump their anger (road rage without a car).
This is so untrue. The worst behavior on this board (that isn't by minors) is undoubtedly the parents who sent their kids to programs.
The smugness and the arrogance with which they discount reason, logic and science in favor of hyperbole, fallacy and faith is simply astounding. "
Your assumption about my age "(That isnt by a minor)" is incorrect. I am actually soon to be a parent myself, and am definitely not a minor. The "smugness and arrogance" in which you assumed my age and level of maturity is also astounding.
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The thread where everyone talks to themselves. :lol:
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On 2006-05-01 07:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If Lacey's Mom had been upfront about what program she was talking about--HLA--and had left out all the nonsense about her ex-husband, thriving business, boyfriend, Godliness, and the other BS, people may have taken her postings a bit more seriously. People here have a bit of a problem with parents who place their kid in program AFTER program AFTER program; and who THEN come on here YAKKING like they know everything. I still have a problem with the multiple placements of this girl."
"This girl" will be happy to explain the situation. The reason for the rant about my father by my mother IS the explination for my "Multiple Placements." The manipulation of the treatment centers I was sent to PALES in comparison to the manipulation my wonderful, oh so caring father is capable of. I was originally only supposed ot be sent to the 2 month wilderness, and then the 9-month RTC. However, during my time at RTC, my father started a whole new custody battle to contend custody of me in court, solely for financial reasons. And if he had gotten custody, I can assure you that the person sitting here typing would be a FAR different, and much more disturbed person. If I had come home directly after RTC, I would have been thrust into the dealings of my father's manipulative, greedy court case, which was one of the biggest reasons, throughout my childhood, that I got so screwed up (in one form or another). And Hidden Lake had assured my parents that I could be temporarily placed there for a few months until the court litigations were resolved, and the home I went back to was a much less tumultuous (sp?) place. I think anyone can agree that a return back home after treatment should be to a stable and supportive environment. Unfortunately, my parents found out too late HLA's penalties for pulling a student, and I was forced to serve my whole stay there.
So before everyone jumps to a position of autority on my life in treatment and the causes in which parts were or were not acceptable, maybe you should take a moment to get off your high horse and acknowledge that maybe you DO NOT have all the information regarding every childs circumstances. So it seems, the only person "YAKKING like they know everything" is you.[ This Message was edited by: Lacey on 2006-05-01 08:01 ]
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On 2006-05-01 07:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If Lacey's Mom had been upfront about what program she was talking about--HLA--and had left out all the nonsense about her ex-husband, thriving business, boyfriend, Godliness, and the other BS, people may have taken her postings a bit more seriously. People here have a bit of a problem with parents who place their kid in program AFTER program AFTER program; and who THEN come on here YAKKING like they know everything. I still have a problem with the multiple placements of this girl."
I did not see where there were any requirements in posting here, mandatory disclosure, only one program per child and no talking about your personal life. Where does it say this?
Each person speaks and tells their story a little differently, some are uncomfortable disclosing certain pieces of info. One should be more patient and respectful, why judge people or assume motives?
[ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-05-01 08:08 ]
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Unfortunately, my parents found out too late HLA's penalties for pulling a student, and I was forced to serve my whole stay there.
What kind of penalties, jail time or something? If I knew my kid was in a bad environment I'd take them out even if it meant I still had to pay. They paid anyways right, why leave you there?
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Unfortunately, my parents found out too late HLA's penalties for pulling a student, and I was forced to serve my whole stay there.
Are you saying that your parents made a value judgement that their money was worth more than your well-being? Even if you're not saying this, it is exactly why many parents justify their actions.
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The story does not add up.
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If you know anything about Hidden Lake, I'm sure you've heard about their tactics in forcing students to conceal information concerning the truth about that place. Any time we would try to communicate with our parents about what was going on, we would be severly punished and our parents were assured that we were just "manipulating". So my parents really had no idea the extent that HLA was harmful until after I graduated and I finally had the freedom to express myself. All they thought was that I was unhappy about having to stay in boarding school. And all they saw, was me getting good grades, involved in sports, and getting accepted to colleges. HLA has a very great way of setting up elementary accomplishments that look great on paper, to make students look like we're accomplishing so much. So on paper, hell, it looked like I was the model student from every parents dream. There was no way they could have known.
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On 2006-05-01 08:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
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Unfortunately, my parents found out too late HLA's penalties for pulling a student, and I was forced to serve my whole stay there.
Are you saying that your parents made a value judgement that their money was worth more than your well-being? Even if you're not saying this, it is exactly why many parents justify their actions."
Oh I'm sure my father made that chioce, absolutely. The stipulation of the court was that my father (becasue he had the money, and my mother did not) was that my father was to pay all bills surrounding my mental health stuff. So it was his decision to not pay the penalties involved in pulling me. He had already not had the outcome he wanted in court, there was nothing for him to do but cut his losses and go home. I have since not seen my father since i was 15. I'm of no leverage to him anymore in court, so therefore I'm of no use to him. So sure, I'd believe it in a heartbeat that he made the decision that money was more important that me. Sure holds true with his current track record.
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Yes, there was many ways in which they could have known. Unfortunately, your statmeent about your parents, has been told over and over by program kids who think 'if only my parents really knew'. They chose not to know.
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On 2006-05-01 08:07:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"So are you single or what?Cops; you wake `em up you gotta dance with `em. They lead.
-- Jack McNulty
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Did you really go to Three Springs? If you did, I'm sorry. Thats were people were sent too if they effed up at HLA, and I've heard some horror stories. And no, I'm not single. I'm not sure the relavence of the question tho.
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So what was your take on Three Springs, from the position of a staff member? And I don't know. I defended myself and my mother out of habit.
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People get used to defending themselves when they feel attacked and really some of the stuff that has been thrown at Lacey and her mother was just indefensible vitriol. That said I think that your mother could have been clearer about articulating her point (which I still don't fully grasp btw)
Either way Lacey, much of what goes on here is just white noise blown by idiots and malcontents. If you filter the useful bits and the intelligent discussions out from the mass you get a lot more out of it.
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Amazing the number of posters who don't like it here yet spend day after day posting. :lol:
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No one said they didn't like it. Just that I want you to work hard to use this place effectively.
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On 2006-05-01 08:52:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"From the staff point of view?
I consider Three Springs to be the Arsehole of the World. Understand that legal and illegal are political, and often arbitrary,
categorizations; use and abuse are medical, or clinical, distinctions.
--Abbie Hoffman
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Don't hold it in TSW, say what you really feel.
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And you could walk out at anytime and got paid, imagine what it's like for the kids.
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On 2006-05-01 08:43:00, MightyAardvark wrote:
"People get used to defending themselves when they feel attacked and really some of the stuff that has been thrown at Lacey and her mother was just indefensible vitriol. That said I think that your mother could have been clearer about articulating her point (which I still don't fully grasp btw)
Either way Lacey, much of what goes on here is just white noise blown by idiots and malcontents. If you filter the useful bits and the intelligent discussions out from the mass you get a lot more out of it.
"
White noise blown by idiots and malcontents? Actually, I think you miss the point MA. This is what rampant "talking out of group" looks and feels like. You may not see the value in it, but trust me, it beats rampant "group speak" hands down which, BTW, is nothing but HOT AIR.
:roll:
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hear, hear!
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MA is just another in a long line of issue seekers who come here to save us all since we are too stupid. Hold up your hands and welcome our new overlord. [pun intended]
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Unfortunately, my parents found out too late HLA's penalties for pulling a student, and I was forced to serve my whole stay there.
lacey's mom here - haha, guess my daughter stumbled on this and decided to try and "clear things up?" - now with my kids, there are some "communicators" :nworthy:
as lacey said, longwinded - guilty as charged!!
your issues about TBS's are not as simple as you make them out to be - there are some complicated struggles and those circumstances have to be pulled into yr discussion - that is the reason for the details - hope that helps some "real" people - the other's, have a good life :wave:
before u all jump on us - try to read the details so you're not ranting on things that are not real!!
I am for sure, not as intelligent as you all, but I don't know if that makes your opinions more worthy? hmmmmmmmmm?
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Same here. ::eek3::
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On 2006-05-01 09:38:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"The only comment I have is I am totally confused now. If life were fair, Dan Quayle would be making a living asking 'Do you want fries with that?'
John Cleese
"
I think thats the point.
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mcr84kar86
Now you say your daughter "stumbled on here"
On 4-28-06 at 14:07 you said you were posting all this BS with your "daughter's blessings."
COME ON LADY. I want you to stop, and go away, OK?
Enough's enough.
You'd be might welcome over on Struggling Teens, but you gotta be NICE. :wave:
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And Lacey, you and MOMMY need to get the story straight, OK? MOMMY says you have a "boyfriend," and you say you aren't "single."
Now if you aren't single...you best not be having a boyfriend, OK?
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you can just back right up there. Lacey's sexual relationships, don't have any bearing on this conversation.
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Nobody said anything about "sexual relationships." Are you saying Lacey can't have a BOYFRIEND without being sexually involved with the guy?
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On 2006-05-01 12:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Nobody said anything about "sexual relationships." Are you saying Lacey can't have a BOYFRIEND without being sexually involved with the guy?"
Oh my, how witty, how terrifyingly apposite. I am awed by your astouding powers of word play and repartee.
Do you want a prize?
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On 2006-05-01 09:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"MA is just another in a long line of issue seekers who come here to save us all since we are too stupid. Hold up your hands and welcome our new overlord. [pun intended]"
MA understands this topic a lot more intimately than any of your know.
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"I'm sure you've heard about their tactics in forcing students to conceal information concerning the truth about that place. Any time we would try to communicate with our parents about what was going on, we would be severly punished" Could you give examples and explain how HLA harms kids. It doesn't have to be specifically about you. You can use things you wittnessed or know about. Thanks [ This Message was edited by: Badpuppy on 2006-05-01 13:49 ]
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On 2006-05-01 12:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Nobody said anything about "sexual relationships." Are you saying Lacey can't have a BOYFRIEND without being sexually involved with the guy?"
so, who ever was kind enough to defend this wonderful person, my daughter, thank you, but not only does lacey have her own caring kind, bruiser of a boyfriend to protect her, her senior law enforcement, "some-day-to-be" stepdad, who doesn't really "do" the "shrink" stuff, but went to evry "parent" workshop he could and participated, believes more in the "baton" type of therapy and kindly always protects us all - so those of you that had any untoward thoughts, etc., go bother yourself...... all this had to do was contributing some of our family experiences to help others gain a "different" perspective.....
but most of you are a closed minded sort of people I never......
well, thank you for the intelligent, but kind and caring folks, keep on searching and guiding the others that need you, we too busy picking the lillacs and hmmmm, enjoying them..... :razz:
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I emailed you but it got returned to sender, something doesn't smell right.
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tried to email who??
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Woah Woah Woah. I am not single BECAUSE I have a boyfriend. How does that not make sense to you? My definition of SINGLE or NOT SINGLE is whether or not you are in a committed relationship. I am in a committed relationship and have been for over a year. So NO I am not MARRIED, but I am not SINGLE. And who the hell cares if I'm sexually active? Obviously I already established that when I said I was a mother to be, and unless I'm goddamned Holy Mary undergoing an immaculate conception, then that kind of answers your fucking question, huh?
And what the fuck does it matter to any of you?? Have you that little to truly argue about that you have to argue and debate about my sexual activity and whether or not I'm single? Holy shit, you all, thats pretty goddamned pathetic.
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It obviously matters to you for some reason because you continue to post here, and get emotionally charged over an internet forum. It's obvious you are here to troll, and try to stir up some shit. Or you might just be crazy...
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On 2006-05-01 13:43:00, Badpuppy wrote:
""I'm sure you've heard about their tactics in forcing students to conceal information concerning the truth about that place. Any time we would try to communicate with our parents about what was going on, we would be severly punished" Could you give examples and explain how HLA harms kids. It doesn't have to be specifically about you. You can use things you wittnessed or know about. Thanks [ This Message was edited by: Badpuppy on 2006-05-01 13:49 ]"
Go to HLA threads and read. Theres enough information there, and is written better than I could explain it. I'm not getting into anything else here, as I'm sure it will just be invalidated and debased on the grounds of some ludicrous topic as already shown.
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On 2006-05-02 07:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It obviously matters to you for some reason because you continue to post here, and get emotionally charged over an internet forum. It's obvious you are here to troll, and try to stir up some shit. Or you might just be crazy..."
I am just here to stir up shit? Who attacked my on grounds of whether or not I was sexually active or in a relationship. That seems to me to be much more antagonistic and uneeded than anything I have posted here. So believe what you want, and spew what you wish, but first look at the facts.
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Lacey, calm down. The only person who mentioned anything about your "sexual relationships" was Mighty Aardvark--so direct your comments to HIM.
You have made it clear: you are in a committed relationship, and therefore do not consider yourself to be "SINGLE." We got it!
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someone said they didn't get the point??
the point, you exert so much energy to attack the parents!!!
well, the parents are already under attck, that is the point!! if you haven't noticed, parents have NO power anymore.
The media/public school sys/the judicial sys/the psychiatric assc/the counselors/the hospitals/the TBS's are all getting rich and making themselves so IMPORTANT, cause they are HELPING those poor kids (but of course, that is after they took away the parents power over their own children!!! you are going to vote for those wonderful HELPFUL people - RIGHT!!!).....
All the liberal influence, the "touchy, feely, "Village", have taken over to "raise" our kids and "silence" parents! and NO ONE says anything!!
The public school, from elementary age indoctrinates the children about abuse from adults, not distinguishing from parents or family, just watch out for the abuser!!!
Don't get started on the crap that I support abusers, my life was destroyed by them (no, i don't use that excuse to resign from life, every smile I smile, every hug or kiss I receive in spite of my abusers, is a WIN for me and no, I accept no excuses from anyone for hurting other people, "because I was an abused child", no excuses!!! just do the right thing) and I am convinced the only appropriate form of punishment is that every time an abused person get a PTSD episode from being "harmed", the abuser should get a life threatening illness during that time, to only be relieved from the pain, when the person abused has the episode pass and forgets about it and is able to just enjoy life.
Our judicial system has taken over the raising of our kids (it takes a village? bullshit) they decide about sex education, diversity, sensitivity, everything except reading, writing, and arithemetic!! so gee, guess what, we are failing as a country in that area - surprise!!!
Then when a parent needs to parent, the kid comes up with all sorts of crap from school, that is taught against the parents wishes, as to why a parent has NO right to set boundaries or expectations for their child.
The school says "that ok johnnie, you get an "A" for effort. We'll just lower the expectations or put you in a "special" class and then you'll "feel" better about yourself!!!!!
There is the principal the asst, prin, the teachrs, coaches, parents on the blessed PTA (panrent teacher assc) that are so much greater in number anymore than the parent/or parents, that it is a LOST battle.
When the parent says, no I expect more from you then that, gee, where do you think the little tyke turns to to "feel" better, NOT the parent!!
Then you wonder why it is sooo attractive to send a kid to wilderness?? Those of us in our 50's, we WORKED from the time we were kids and it didn't matter how you felt, it mattered, could you survive on your own.
We didn't know about welfare, the "helping" organizations. We knew how to go get a JOB - but now that is a dirty word isn't it??
We don't do WORK - we leave that to those "illegal immigrants" cause we are much to important for work.
every child deserves a college degree (they can't read or write or think and they certainly don't know how to learn, but we don't want them to "feel" bad, so we won't tell them they are uneducated, we'll give them their degree and ahhhh, they can go to work for, guess who - YEAH!!! the GOVERNMENT!!!!
you all sit in here and bash parents - we are accountable to the school sys for child abuse, school attendence, state of mind to the judicial system, our beliefs that may differ from theirs as then we are "homophobic", "racist", whatever "label" they decide to come up with to "take control" of our children.
Where I went wrong as a parent is when I decided to take away the authority away from the court and not charge my kids dad with abuse.
You want to know law firms, reasearch Williams & Connelly, Belli Jacobs Weil & Jacobs - you think these law firms didn't want to impose JUSTICE, their style?
how dare i not cooperate in the 80's with being a "victim". my god, how i could have helped the "women's movement" (the immasculation of our young men) ooopppsss - guess that is not PC either
I decided that, in researching abused women, they repeat this crap over and over and over. What is the recidivism rate? You wouldn't believe it!
The only way to stop is to go through the pain of change and the only way to go through the change is actually to do it, not to get an "award" from the court for sitting up on the witness stand and piling humiliation on top of the humiliation you have already sufferred to "tell the court" and then be at their mercy as to whether they "believe you.
As if my reality as to what happened depends on whether I am believed - rubbash!!!
So, the point, the reason Bill Gates and many states and religious communities and decent parents are pouring their energy into "alternative" or private schools is that the raising of our children is for parents, not any school, not the govt, not some committe!!!
now you all can sit around here all you want, "JUDGING" parents story as to what you believe or not, who is a TROLL (for god's sake, who in god's name has the time for THAT!!) or not, but unless you get out there and STOP all these people interfering in the parents RIGHT to raise their kids, you are simply sitting herre amusing yourself cause you got nothing better to do.....
my grandkids will go to public school over my dead body - lacey wants to be a teacher, IN A PRIVATE SCHOOL!!!!
what's the point, well, hopefully, NOW - you get it!!
if not, oh well...... too bad for you!!
have a good life - go DO something to change kids being available for TBS's in the first place - put them out of business cause parents are parenting and DON"T NEED then anyway!!!
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On 2006-05-02 08:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Lacey, calm down. The only person who mentioned anything about your "sexual relationships" was Mighty Aardvark--so direct your comments to HIM.
You have made it clear: you are in a committed relationship, and therefore do not consider yourself to be "SINGLE." We got it!"
You are deliberately twisting my comments out of context. You have nothing intelligent to bring to the debate so you amuse yourself by lying, twisting the truth and attempting to start arguments.
I stated in fact that Lacey's sexual relationships were no business of Fornit's and you chose present that information out of context. I honestly fail to see how you benefit from this sort of infantile points scoring.
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Well, wow, wow MOM: why didn't you step up to the plate and be a parent about 3 years ago instead of packing your daughter off to wilderness, and then two programs. give it a break.