Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools (WWASPS) => Topic started by: Anonymous on April 25, 2006, 11:59:00 PM
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At WWASP's CCM, girls had to be voted up to each level by their peers, and it only took a single vote to hold someone back. And so life was full of ongoing campaigns and secret alliances, with the girls engaged in a true life version of Survivor, fighting their ways home.
It was simple to drop - sneaking extra food, talking to the opposite sex, writing a note with negative comments about the program, etc. But getting up took several months, and it took years if you didn't behave. Higher levels were expected to tattle on lower levels or also drop for the same offenses they witnessed committed by others. Higher levels were supposed to staff the seminars, which meant that they had to "confront" others by getting in their faces and putting them down. Higher levels could almost taste freedom, so they must be forgiven for their transgressions against others.
The rewards were food. The highest level was able to go to the movies, and this was after like a year, but they would always change the rules and what was allowed. We did not hike or do the other stuff listed in various marketing materials. You got to talk to your parents on the higher levels, but it was still supervised. Local visits and especially home visits were waaaay down the road.
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The levels:
Level 1 (now known as "entry level")-- in this level, the inmate may not speak, stand up, sit down, move or do anything without asking for permission first. They can only communicate with their parents through letters.
Level 2 (now known as Achievement Level)-- in this level, the inmate is still under heavy control, but they can stand up/sit down/move from one room to another without asking for permission, and they get a few more meaningless priviledges. They still can't communicate with their parents in any way besides the letters, which are subject to censorship.
Level 3 (now known as Advanced Status)-- in this level, the inmate is permitted to talk to his/her parents by phone-- once a month, for 15 minutes.
Level 4 (now known as Service Status)-- inmates have two 20 minute phone calls with parents monthly. They also have one 3-day visit a month in local area (not overnight).
Level 5 (now known as Honor Status)-- inmates have three 20 minute phone calls with parents monthly. They also have one 3-day overnight visit a month in local area (not at home). They may have homevisits after completing the Parent-Child II Seminar.
Level 6 (now known as High Honor Status)-- inmates have weekly 20 minute phone calls with parents. They also continue to have their home visits on this level.
This may not sounds so bad-- unless you consider the fact that you can get dropped for pretty much anything, that WWASPS has an interest in keeping you there as long as possible, and that it takes the vast majority of inmates months, sometimes years, till they reach a level where they can see or talk to their parents.
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Level 1's cannot talk to other Level 1's. They do not get food condiments, they can't wear shoelaces.
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On 2006-04-26 11:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Level 1's cannot talk to other Level 1's. They do not get food condiments, they can't wear shoelaces."
You are right about level 1's not talking to each other, but level 1's CAN have condiments and they CAN wear shoe laces. The only time you don't get your laces is if you are on run risk. They did away with not letting level 1's have condiments until level 2 about 2 years ago. I can check again and make sure that hasn't changed since I left there.
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On 2006-04-26 12:28:00, Irish Mom wrote:
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On 2006-04-26 11:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Level 1's cannot talk to other Level 1's. They do not get food condiments, they can't wear shoelaces."
You are right about level 1's not talking to each other, but level 1's CAN have condiments and they CAN wear shoe laces. The only time you don't get your laces is if you are on run risk. They did away with not letting level 1's have condiments until level 2 about 2 years ago. I can check again and make sure that hasn't changed since I left there."
good to hear its changed, it was true when I was there though.
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isn't there level three all stars (1600 points) in between level three and four? or did they get rid of that too?
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It's still there
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What the hell type of treatment is withholding condiments????
So if someone has a meth addiction, the first step in treatment is to deny ketchup, syrup, mustard and pepper?
Whether or not the rule still exists, it serves as useful insight into the intelligence of the trolls.
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On 2006-04-26 16:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What the hell type of treatment is withholding condiments????
So if someone has a meth addiction, the first step in treatment is to deny ketchup, syrup, mustard and pepper?
Whether or not the rule still exists, it serves as useful insight into the intelligence of the trolls."
These type of rules come from the idiots that compare the treatment of troubled teens to baking pizzas. Idiots!!!! What's next......I'm afraid to even ask!!!!
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On 2006-04-26 16:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What the hell type of treatment is withholding condiments????
So if someone has a meth addiction, the first step in treatment is to deny ketchup, syrup, mustard and pepper?
Whether or not the rule still exists, it serves as useful insight into the intelligence of the trolls."
Wow, I hope that reference to "trolls" wasn't directed at me. I just relayed what I knew to be in effect while I was there. Never said I agreed with it. :eek:
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On 2006-04-26 17:18:00, Irish Mom wrote:
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On 2006-04-26 16:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What the hell type of treatment is withholding condiments????
So if someone has a meth addiction, the first step in treatment is to deny ketchup, syrup, mustard and pepper?
Whether or not the rule still exists, it serves as useful insight into the intelligence of the trolls."
Wow, I hope that reference to "trolls" wasn't directed at me. I just relayed what I knew to be in effect while I was there. Never said I agreed with it. :eek: "
No, not directed at you! Obviously you are a valuable source of info and not the dimwit who wrote the Staff Handbook.
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On 2006-04-26 17:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
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On 2006-04-26 17:18:00, Irish Mom wrote:
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On 2006-04-26 16:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What the hell type of treatment is withholding condiments????
So if someone has a meth addiction, the first step in treatment is to deny ketchup, syrup, mustard and pepper?
Whether or not the rule still exists, it serves as useful insight into the intelligence of the trolls."
Wow, I hope that reference to "trolls" wasn't directed at me. I just relayed what I knew to be in effect while I was there. Never said I agreed with it. :eek: "
No, not directed at you! Obviously you are a valuable source of info and not the dimwit who wrote the Staff Handbook."
Whew! Okay, I can breathe again...lol
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On 2006-04-26 18:04:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"Maybe it is just me, but it seems to me that a certain percentage of the kids must at least be infuriated with their parents enough to the extent of not even wanting to bother with their phone calls?
Does this ever happen?Any priest or shaman must be presumed guilty until proven innocent.
--Robert A. Heinlen, American science-ficiton author
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I remember a couple of times where some of my girls refused to talk to their parents. They were so angry at them for one thing or another. Sometimes it was for putting them in the program and sometimes it was for things that happened after they were already there. It was really hard to not say anything negative about their parents to them, but a lot of times if you did they just ended up defending them, so it was best to not say anything about their parents. I would just let them vent if they needed to.
I just had the hardest time as a parent to understand how you could send your child away at the absolute hardest time in their lives. I remember other staff telling me to just wait until my child was a teenager and then see what I had to say, but I still to this day know that I would NEVER send my child away for others to deal with their problems. Isn't that why we have kids, to raise them ourselves?? Maybe that's naieve on my part...who knows?? :???:
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I just had the hardest time as a parent to understand how you could send your child away at the absolute hardest time in their lives. I remember other staff telling me to just wait until my child was a teenager and then see what I had to say, but I still to this day know that I would NEVER send my child away for others to deal with their problems. Isn't that why we have kids, to raise them ourselves?? Maybe that's naieve on my part...who knows?? :???: "
I'm in a pickle right now and need to decide quickly whether or not to attempt to send my kid to Horizon Academy. To answer your question, though I'd love to raise my kid. The problem is he won't let me.
Here's the scenario. My kid has been failing in school since the fifth grade. He's in High School now. He's had multiple truancies. Now a few months ago he and a friend decide to steal a tip jar that had $37 in it. On the surface this doesn't sound like a big deal, but the District Attorney charged him with Comercial Burglery, a felony. The kid that was with him, caucasian, was let off with a lesser charge. Nevermind that kid was in Opportunities for Learning. The place they send kids who were kicked out of regular school. My son could be sent to the California Youth Authority for one to three years for this. He was even given the opportunity to get the charges removed if he did community service and improved his grades. He hasn't done this. The only way I can make him go to school would be for me to quit my job and follow him around 24/7. That's not an option by the way.
I've been going to counselling and have attempted to take him. He's disappeared for many appointments. During counselling it was suggested he might of Oppositional Defiant Disorder. It was suggested that I ask his school to test him. I've atempted to do that, but they've taken months. Now it appears they'll be too late to help. I've also sought local psychiatrists to test him, but that wasn't overly helpful. I suppose I could try again, but I'm out of time it seems.
My question to people here is would he be better off in Horizon Academy or in the California Youth Authority? I'm pretty sure in the latter he'd be mixed with kids that are hard-core criminals, mine isn't there yet. Is there something better that I can do? He has to go to court on Friday morning so I need an answer yesterday. He's either going to jail or this program. I don't think they'll wait for me to have him tested by a psychiatrist.
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The above post about my kid about to go to the California Youth Authority is mine.
Before you judge me as a bad parent, I have an 18 year old son that's doing okay. This child though doesn't listen. I can't control what he does when I'm not home. I try to show him I love him and that I want the best for him. He seems mentally ill in my opinion.
Before anyone says I should have hired an attorney for my son, I did. He wasn't able to convince the DA to lower the charges. My son is guilty of that crime if you look at the letter of the law too. This whole situation is insane.
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As abusive and dangerous as juvenile detention facilities can be, the abuse, suffering, and psychological damage caused by private facilities is far worse. At least in the CYA he'll have some minimal rights-- being able to be visited by his parents, make phone calls, have some sort of an education, etc. He will NOT get these things at a WWASPS facility like Horizon. In Horizon, he'll be expected to "earn" the "right" to maintain contact w/ his parents-- that can take anywhere from weeks to months to years.
The educational program at these facilities is NOT regionally accredited, and therefor, meaningless. It doesn't even include real classroom teaching. In all WWASPS facilities, the children simply read booklets, then fill out multiple choice tests, which are checked by "educational aides"-- employees who often have no qualifications whatsoever. Essentially, the children are expected to teach themselves.
Not to mention the lack of therapy, excessive use of solitary confinement and other extreme measures, EST-style seminars, psychological and physical abuse...
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Another case of too little too late. Amazing just amazing! Okay, so you have an 18 year old kid doing well. But your younger son is struggling? Prime example, one size parenting does not fit all. You think he is mentally ill? Perhaps he is chemically imbalanced, but you are just realizing this now?
So, okay.........will it be equal amounts of time that he'll have to spend in CYA or New Horizons? How long is that?
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On 2006-05-03 13:03:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"Another case of too little too late. Amazing just amazing! Okay, so you have an 18 year old kid doing well. But your younger son is struggling? Prime example, one size parenting does not fit all. You think he is mentally ill? Perhaps he is chemically imbalanced, but you are just realizing this now?
So, okay.........will it be equal amounts of time that he'll have to spend in CYA or New Horizons? How long is that?
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Thanks for your answer. I have taken him to counselling, when he'd go. The counsellor suggested that I take him to a psychiatrist. He thought he might be suffering from depression. The psychiatrist prescribed an anti-depressant to see if this would make things better. My son took it for a few weeks, then quit. I have no way of making him take medications either. It wasn't until earlier this year I learned about Oppositional Defiant Disorder. He may be suffering from that. A few years ago I managed to get the school to test him for learning disablities, he doesn't have any of those. They didn't bother to suggest or test him for emotional disorders at that time though.
I've spent a lot of time with him over the years too. The boy has a Red Belt with a Black stripe in Taekwondo thanks to me. He and I took classes together for a long time until he decided to quit a couple of years ago. He didn't care that I had to pay for another year even though he wasn't attending or that he was one step away from Black Belt.
Anyway again thank you for sharing your opinion about my parenting ability. I hope you never have a situation like mine.
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On 2006-05-03 13:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"As abusive and dangerous as juvenile detention facilities can be, the abuse, suffering, and psychological damage caused by private facilities is far worse. At least in the CYA he'll have some minimal rights-- being able to be visited by his parents, make phone calls, have some sort of an education, etc. He will NOT get these things at a WWASPS facility like Horizon. In Horizon, he'll be expected to "earn" the "right" to maintain contact w/ his parents-- that can take anywhere from weeks to months to years.
The educational program at these facilities is NOT regionally accredited, and therefor, meaningless. It doesn't even include real classroom teaching. In all WWASPS facilities, the children simply read booklets, then fill out multiple choice tests, which are checked by "educational aides"-- employees who often have no qualifications whatsoever. Essentially, the children are expected to teach themselves.
Not to mention the lack of therapy, excessive use of solitary confinement and other extreme measures, EST-style seminars, psychological and physical abuse... "
Your answer is helpful, thanks. Yes I'm in a rush to get as much information on this as possible before I make a decision.
So CYA would be better? Yikes. :sad:
I found Horizon Academy did have an accredidation. I'm not sure what it's worth though. http://www.boisestate.edu/naas/schools/newschools.shtml (http://www.boisestate.edu/naas/schools/newschools.shtml)
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It also seems to be licensed by the state of Nevada. http://dcfs.state.nv.us/ChildCareDocs/C ... tyList.pdf (http://dcfs.state.nv.us/ChildCareDocs/ChildCareFacilityList.pdf)
I'm still not convinced that this would be a good option.
What's my best option, any ideas?
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Oppositional Defiant Disorder
Dad, first let me say that I commend you for looking to get some first-hand accounts before you send your kid anywhere. Good start.
Second, I need to inform you that the term "ODD" is a contrived diagnosis brought into the psychiatric lexicon for one and only one purpose: to medically justify charging for behavior modification programs. If you don't believe this, do some research on your own and you will see that this dx is going to be dropped in the next revision of the DSM and is not used by any mainstream practitioners whatsoever. The only persons handing out the dx of "ODD" are shill practitioners working for programs (referrral fees), Ed Cons (referral fees) and the programs themselves (direct profit).
It is worthy to note that "ODD," as it is actually defined in the DSM is overwhelmingly a childhood (NOT adolescent) problem where over 90% of bonafide cases are in patients UNDER TEN YEARS OLD. This is not a catch-all for normal teenage defiance of parental authority.
Let me make a suggestion, if you will. Go back to a psychologist that specializes in adolescents and psychometric testing. Have your son FULLY evaluated. If there is no psychopathology found, there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to send him to a behavior modification facility (BTW, over 50 years of research shows BM has no positive effects upon behavior outside of a carefully controlled environment).
Do the legwork. Go to a reputable professional with NO TIES or AFFILIATION with the BM industry and get a full battery work-up.
You can always consider an outpatient program in your community and Functional Family Therapy which are proven recipes for success in treating children with mental hygiene issues. Again, if testing reveals NO PSYCHOPATHOLOGY (over 80% of children in the BM warehouses have NO diagnosable problems) then there can be NO JUSTIFICATION for ANY placement outside your home.
Good luck and let us know what you find.
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"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-05-03 14:13 ]
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Dear Worried Dad,
I pretty much can guarantee that I will never let my child down. So, please don't worry about that.
Oppositional Defiant Disorder? Excuse my french......but what the fuck is that?!! It sounds to me like he is a child coming into young adulthood realizing that he doesn't have to do what he is told. So what? Now we are labeling him.....BFD!!!!
So, he got himself into some trouble. Now he has to pay the consequences. It sounds to me to be a little harsh. Is there something you are not telling us?
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Horizon Academy
There's a lot of useful information here. Keep in mind that WWASPS (parent company of Horizon) is widely known and documented (PROVEN) to be extremely abusive and fraudulent.
They have had facilities forcibly closed by the govt's of Mexico, Costa Rica and the Czech Republic (where there aren't even usual basic human rights laws) for using "therapy" like stun guns, cattle prods, pepper spray, confinement in dog cages, starvation and forced labor.
:skull: STAY AWAY FROM WWASPS, PERIOD. :skull:
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On 2006-05-03 14:12:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"Dear Worried Dad,
I pretty much can guarantee that I will never let my child down. So, please don't worry about that.
Oppositional Defiant Disorder? Excuse my french......but what the fuck is that?!! It sounds to me like he is a child coming into young adulthood realizing that he doesn't have to do what he is told. So what? Now we are labeling him.....BFD!!!!
So, he got himself into some trouble. Now he has to pay the consequences. It sounds to me to be a little harsh. Is there something you are not telling us?
"
Thank you for your kind and informative reply.
No the only other crimes he's been involved with are truancies. Nobody was injured when the tip jar was taken and nothing was broken. The DA wants to make an example out of my son so he's facing one to three years.
I'm not going to be responding to you anymore, thanks.[ This Message was edited by: Worried Dad on 2006-05-03 14:43 ]
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I'm not going to be responding to you anymore. Go get some therapy you clearly have issues.
Was this really called for? The same could be said about you, but people are trying to help you and your son.
Good advice sometimes comes from strange places...
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Was this really called for? The same could be said about you, but people are trying to help you and your son.
Good advice sometimes comes from strange places...
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer
Yes well I have been going to therapy over this, thanks.
She seems to be a part of the ignorant crowd that believes that if the children have problems then it's the parents fault all the time.
Part of what the counsellor recommened was a book called, "Back In Control." It's a great book too. It doesn't work in my situation though. I don't know where my son is most of the time. Nor can I find him when I look for him. The only thing I did learn from it was that I need to let my son know that I love him and try to win him over to my side. I haven't had much luck with that yet. I'm not giving up though.[ This Message was edited by: Worried Dad on 2006-05-03 15:23 ]
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On 2006-05-03 14:59:00, Worried Dad wrote:
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On 2006-05-03 14:45:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
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I'm not going to be responding to you anymore. Go get some therapy you clearly have issues.
Was this really called for? The same could be said about you, but people are trying to help you and your son.
Good advice sometimes comes from strange places...
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I let her bash me as a parent twice before. I'm trying hard. I don't need abuse like that from someone that doesn't know me from Adam. Besides, she does sound like she is dealing with a lot of anger. Perhaps she has good reason for it as well. She doesn't need to direct it at me though.
Your answer was great thanks. I suppose I'll ask my sons lawyer to attempt to delay this hearing until I can get my son tested by someone reputable. The school is going to drag their feet until they don't have to do anything."
Hate to break it to you, almost as much as I hate to REPEAT this, but in 30+ years of existance (for the industry at large) not one program has proven theyre effective, reduce recidivism, or have any good effects at all! The only thing they can do is isolate your child from the outside world, completely, but then youre trading his freedom to do bad things, to the certainty of bad things being done TO him.
Programs dont work, and "wilderness" doesnt work, period. Theres zero proof, theres zero evidence, just emotional appeals from the apologists and anecdotes that are utterly useless.
Furthermore, based on what they admit, and what we've found out, their model is not therapeutic at all. Its just behavior modification - which only 'works' as far as making them do what you want so they dont have to be punished anymore, and/or a short-term effect from the psychological regression from the programs practices (most notably LGAT seminars of various guises) that wears off as soon as the staffers and oldcomers arent around to bust him down a level, or 'restain' him in pain compliance holds for a few hours.
Theyre culty, anachronistic, and by and large out there to make the parents happy, but not actualy help the kids in any way. The most that might happen is that they simply grow up while in the program, but coallation is not causation - you might as well send kids to programs for having a cold, and let them out when theyre over the cold, and let the program claim responsibility for it.
BTW, have you ever thought about what a program does to a 'good' kid who was put in by a sucker of a parent? Or a 'good' kid who was sent becuase he or she was abused, thinking shed get real treatment, but instead was treated just like everyone else? Theyre stupid cults, no more, no less.
Seperate your own feelings and your own need for relief from worry from what your child needs, and your responsibility to protect him from abuse and ensure actual therapy. Some kids just need to grow up, and a program is one of the worst places to do that. Look at whose sharing facts and details, vs generalized emotional nonsense - and youll see all of this for yourself.
Im sorry theres no easy answer for him, but there are a lot of people who will give YOU the easy answer for a few thousand dollars a month.
That fact alone is where a lot of the hatred comes from - a lot of people are sick of parents abdicating responsibility for their own relief and ignoring the fact that these places dont actually DO anything but warehouse the kid long enough for him to grow up, or reach the age of majority so its not the parents problem anymore.
Im not saying you did, or will do that, but I am saying everyone here doesnt want to see that happen again, but have grown to expect it.
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Okay, I've said it before though perhaps not strongly enough, I'm not sending my son there. You're answers other than one person here, have been great, thanks.
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I let her bash me as a parent twice before. I'm trying hard. I don't need abuse like that from someone that doesn't know me from Adam. Besides, she does sound like she is dealing with a lot of anger. Perhaps she has good reason for it as well. She doesn't need to direct it at me though.
Well, I don't know her personally, but I do know her story from talking on here and, yes, I think there would unresolved feelings surrounding her treatment at the hands of uneducated pseudo-therapuetic organized child abusers. But listen, isn't that why were all here in a sense? Because we're having problems and are looking for that one thing we didn't think of ourselves? Or we're here looking to help others avoid our mistakes? Or both?
In any case, she wants your child to get the best possible care he can get for whatever ails him. Our diagnoses are all the same, if you will, but we all write different 'scripts for it.
I think a lot of us are a little short with parents because of a segment of the parent population that are clearly the causes of and their children's problems and also are equally as clearly an obstacle to a solution for the very problems they've helped to create. I personally have dealt with dozens of them and I (like CCM) can see the BS coming well in advance because we know what it looks like from years of experience and education and when the BS meter starts to oscillate it gets a reaction. I don't think any one of us would disagree with that statement.
Now, that having been said, I feel the intrinsic value of being told the truth and understanding it greatly outweighs the discomfort of having to look at the facts with sober skepticism - so I tell you the straight dope right from the start. Experience tells me to cut to the chase because I know the dance already. I can skip the Pas de Deux.
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Part of what the counsellor recommened was a book called, "Back In Control."
Which just so happens to be featured on Lon's site (http://http://www.strugglingteens.com/opinion/backcontrol.html).
"Worried Dad", if you are for real and not yet another programmie troll (pardon our suspicion- we get a lot of them here), think: What else can you do with the money? Have you considered non-residential treatment programs? When did all this start? How much have you talked to your son about it? Did you tell him that things have gotten so bad, you're thinking about sending him away?
The other posters were right- a public jail beats a private TBS any day of the week.
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On 2006-05-03 15:29:00, Paul Smith wrote:
"Part of what the counsellor recommened was a book called, "Back In Control."
Which just so happens to be featured on Lon's site (http://http://www.strugglingteens.com/opinion/backcontrol.html).
"Worried Dad", if you are for real and not yet another programmie troll (pardon our suspicion- we get a lot of them here), think: What else can you do with the money? Have you considered non-residential treatment programs? When did all this start? How much have you talked to your son about it? Did you tell him that things have gotten so bad, you're thinking about sending him away?
The other posters were right- a public jail beats a private TBS any day of the week.
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Yes I've noticed what seemed to be troll posts myself.
I had no clue that book was featured there. It was recommended to me by a therapist. No he didn't recommend sending my son to one of these schools. The book is still good in my opinion. Don't throw the baby out with the bad.
Yes I'm real.
Yes I can understand anger towards parents. In my case I'm particularly tired of being blamed for my child's problems though. If he's having problems, it's not necessarily the parents fault for it. The therapists that my son and I have seen all have said it's not my fault. My son even told one that he's not blaming me for his problems. The therapist probably shouldn't have told me that, but it did make me feel better.
Okay I suppose there's more people that want to flame me so get it out of your systems. I'll try to keep my mouth shut. lol
Oh and if someone has a resource of where I can find something that would help my son other than one of these WWASP programs I'd be grateful. Again, I'm not planning to send my son to a WWASP now, thanks. lol
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On 2006-05-03 15:26:00, Worried Dad wrote:
"Okay, I've said it before though perhaps not strongly enough, I'm not sending my son there. You're answers other than one person here, have been great, thanks."
How funny! I guess I hit a nerve? Your telling me that there is no way you can sweet talk that judge into giving him another opportunity for success under your supervision? Sounds to me like you are giving up way too easily. Maybe you want your child to just go away, so you can feel like you can tell your family and friends it wasn't my choice, it was the courts! Boo-hoo!
Whatever, I guess the judge might be seeing something that we may not. Maybe it's apparent to them that you are not a good parent, and never will be. Maybe they feel like they are doing your son a favor by sending him away from you?
I'm not this angry person you make me out to be! I just think people like you are weak, and make a bunch of excuses of why it's not your fault.
I'm 99.99999% sure it is you who needs the therapy. I am not here on Fornits asking for advice on what to do with my life, or my relationships.
I've shared my experiences, and made a few friends. I offer outside the box thinking for those parents open to hearing it.
Sorry if I offended, or struck a nerve. But, I will not be losing sleep over it.
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Yes I can understand anger towards parents. In my case I'm particularly tired of being blamed for my child's problems though. If he's having problems, it's not necessarily the parents fault for it. The therapists that my son and I have seen all have said it's not my fault. My son even told one that he's not blaming me for his problems. The therapist probably shouldn't have told me that, but it did make me feel better.
Some good parents have problems with their kids too. It happens.
Whether or not that's the case with you is irrelevent though. It's not about you right now. Just try to gain some perspective from people who legitimately, no matter how they express it, hold your child in the highest regard and would do literally almost anything to help him if they could. This is where grownups are supposed to be able to examine the situation critically and make good decisions. Don't let your own feelings get in the way of your best judgement.
Honestly, to me, you seem like a pretty measured guy. I really see no reason why you shouldn't be able to get all the facts on the table before you act. I think you'll probably do alright.
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I've shared my experiences, and made a few friends. I offer outside the box thinking for those parents open to hearing it.
I must say that this is true. You do give creative and thoughtful advice.
Now be nice! :wink:
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CCM, *STFU*. This gentleman is acting real enough and there's no sense in treating him like yet another hopeless programmie parent. He obviously gives a damn. Let's focus on saving the kid instead of pissing the dad off, shall we?
I say again: Non-residential treatment. You might want to start here: http://www.colorado.edu/cspv/blueprints ... rview.html (http://www.colorado.edu/cspv/blueprints/model/overview.html)
Also, why don't you bring him to this board, WD? Get him to put in writing what the hell is going on.
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Come on DJ!!!! You're letting this guy get off the hook way too easily. You're telling me if he personally talks to the judge, and begs him for another chance, and has his plan put together on what he is going to do as a parent, to turn this kid around, the judge wouldn't give him another chance?!!
What state do these people live in?
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On 2006-05-03 15:54:00, Paul Smith wrote:
"CCM, *STFU*. This gentleman is acting real enough and there's no sense in treating him like yet another hopeless programmie parent. He obviously gives a damn. Let's focus on saving the kid instead of pissing the dad off, shall we?
I say again: Non-residential treatment. You might want to start here: http://www.colorado.edu/cspv/blueprints ... rview.html (http://www.colorado.edu/cspv/blueprints/model/overview.html)
Also, why don't you bring him to this board, WD? Get him to put in writing what the hell is going on."
Fine, I will let him speak. But, I am rather tired of parents letting their kids be taken away so easily.
I will try, and play nice. But, I am not going to STFU! So get used to it.
Get it? Got it? Good!!!!
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On 2006-05-03 15:55:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"Come on DJ!!!! You're letting this guy get off the hook way too easily. You're telling me if he personally talks to the judge, and begs him for another chance, and has his plan put together on what he is going to do as a parent, to turn this kid around, the judge wouldn't give him another chance?!!
What state do these people live in?
"
I do whatever it takes to make my point. I don't let anyone off easy. Why do you think I have my own personal troll? Actually, three of them.
I implore, I order, I browbeat, I lecture,I cajole, I shame, I appeal to the sense of decency. I do it all. I just genuinely think that this guy has already started to think long and hard about what an important moment this is in his child's life and will do right by him.
If I didn't think so, I'd kick him in his ass. And I'd ask you to help.
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Dad:
Your child has ODD, that is a true diagnosis. If your child stole once, is doing poorly in school, etc., I'd say that's very characteristic. It sounds like he needs proper treatment.
100%, go with CYA. Your child will see fistfights, etc. but he's already dabbling with that and would also see that at WWASP. He will be offered a valid education, therapy, and courses on making different choices. He will not be forbidden to speak with you or see you, so you'll have a better idea that he's safe. There are not unreasonable expectations to rise in levels and then the littlest offenses drop you forever. It's not a money game like the ones WWASP plays, asking you to pay for activities, toothpaste, etc. as if the $4000 or more tuition couldn't cover it.
No system is perfect. Your son made some choices and has to live with the consequences. I am in my 20s and can now laugh at my teenage follies. Even though it seems like the end of the world right now, hang in there.
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On 2006-05-03 15:29:00, Paul Smith wrote:
"Part of what the counsellor recommened was a book called, "Back In Control."
Which just so happens to be featured on Lon's site (http://http://www.strugglingteens.com/opinion/backcontrol.html).
"Worried Dad", if you are for real and not yet another programmie troll (pardon our suspicion- we get a lot of them here), think: What else can you do with the money? Have you considered non-residential treatment programs? When did all this start? How much have you talked to your son about it? Did you tell him that things have gotten so bad, you're thinking about sending him away?
The other posters were right- a public jail beats a private TBS any day of the week.
"
Well it started probably in the fifth grade. He's in high school now. He's been failing every class since then. I had a similar problem with my oldest who turned around when he turned 16. It might just be a maturity thing yes. My oldest wasn't quite a bad as this one though.
His mother and I split up when he was in the sixth grade. We share custody of him. She insisted on full custody, but we comprised on shared custody. I'd prefer to have full custody, but it would cost around $10,000 to get it and would involve a lot of stuff that might not be good for him. You can bash her all you want, I don't care. lol.
Yes I've threatened to send him away before but I wasn't serious. The only reason I've considered it now is because I was concerned about him being exposed to hard-core kids that might hurt him. He's an expert fighter and all but that doesn't always matter. Again based on what I've seen from you guys and other sources, public jail seems better. The ironic part is I'll be charged, from what I'm hearing, $1,000/month for him to stay there. I'm still worried he'll be injured or traumatized in some way while he's there too. I don't see a way around it though. He's had several chances already.
Yes non-residential treatment would be great. It would require him to do it voluntarily though. Even though he's been ordered by the court to see a therapist, it's been a struggle to get him to go. He's not really interested in therapy.
The biggest mistake I made is making the assumption that stealing a $37 tip jar could only be a minor crime. I didn't want to hire a lawyer for my son for what I thought would be petty theft at the most. I advised my son to confess and get it over with. We'll the DA used his confession to secure the Commercial Burglery charge, a felony. Moral, never, ever, confess to a crime no matter how trivial you think it might be.
I don't really expect parenting advice from anyone here. Some people here might even be experts in the field, but I have no way of knowing that. However, It'd be cool if anyone wants to share reputable links to something that would work. That one link that was shared looks okay. My kid isn't really violent though, nor am I. That seems to be to focus of that link too.
I've been dealing with this situation for years. I'm pretty tired of talking about it. Talking about it with him hasn't helped. Talking about it with people, other than therapists, has caused me mainly grief like today. You've heard the old joke, "Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one." Most of you here have been great though, thanks.
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Worried Dad...
I am truly sorry for what you're going through with your son. I also think it's great that you chose to come to this site for info before just blindly putting your child in some place for others to deal with. I can't begin to know what you're going through and I just pray that my son never chooses that path to follow. He's still young, but it won't be too long before he's a teenager and I'm really starting to dread it...lol! Oh the horror stories I've heard!
All I can say is I've worked in one of the WWASP facilities and I just hope you continue to do your homework and NOT put your son in one of them. They don't help these kids and the ones that do seem to be doing ok are few and far between. I think they would have been fine anyway, but of course WWASP takes the credit for their wonderful turnaround.
Keep looking into anything you can to keep your son out of a facility of anykind, be it private or public.
My thoughts and prayers are with you and your son...Good Luck!
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Worried Dad, Horizon Academy is NOT accredited. The link you posted leads to a list of programs/schools "accredited" by the Northwest Accreditation organization. Anyone who wants to get accredited by them has to pay a fee and be "reviewed" by a "team of peers"-- in WWASPS's case, their own executives. There is no REAL accrediting going on.
Read more here:
http://www.isaccorp.org (http://www.isaccorp.org)
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On 2006-05-03 18:17:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"You lost me.
You are tired of dealing with your child?
Sorry for my abruptness but are you some sort of asshole who dispenses with their children like a used tampon as soon as the tampon gets a bit grotty?
Now it comes out that your were divorced when he was in the 6th grade. Seriously sherlock do some googling on the studies done showing children of divorced parents and their problems. Most of the kids I have dealt with in TBS had parents either being divorced, or were divorced.
Friggin pitiful considered that the parents would still go at each other like a hat full of ass with the child watching the whole fucked up show.
Now it makes alot more sense, and your best bet would be to consider some family counseling with you, your ex, and your boy considering this all started with the divorce. Not to get back together, but to help your boy understand it ain't gonna happen, but no matter what he is still loved, and the divorce certainly isn't his fault.
...
Where did I say I've dispensed with him?
Do you really believe that I don't know that divorce is harmful to children? Of course I'm sure you're aware that staying married in some cases might do more harm to the child than getting divorced too. How is informing of this going to help my kid?
Family therapy will only work if he wants to go, which he doesn't. My ex is not interested in going either. I'd be happy to do this if it were an option. Even when he was ordered by the court to attend therapy he'd vanish sometimes when it was time for an appointment.
Now in case anyone hasn't read my previous messages I've decided against sending him to a WWASP program. I only considered because he's facing one to three years in a public jail. I've heard from a few here that a WWASP would be worse and I've no reason to doubt it. Maybe I should add this to my signature? lol
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On 2006-05-03 20:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Worried Dad, Horizon Academy is NOT accredited. The link you posted leads to a list of programs/schools "accredited" by the Northwest Accreditation organization. Anyone who wants to get accredited by them has to pay a fee and be "reviewed" by a "team of peers"-- in WWASPS's case, their own executives. There is no REAL accrediting going on.
Read more here:
http://www.isaccorp.org (http://www.isaccorp.org)"
Yes that's what I was afraid of, thanks. It sounds a lot like the "Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval." It just means they paid for it.
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I think people keep adding WWASP comments despite the fact that you say you've decided against it is because the sales reps will say anything to make a commission. They're going to give you follow up calls and tell you that it's just one person here on Fornits and that the thousand people on Myspace are all lying about the abuse.
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You might consider getting a better lawyer. Mr. DJ is 100% correct in what he is telling you. If it were my kid I'd rather have him go to the CA Youth authority than a WWASP program. WWASP programs are systmatic brutalization with the added liability of harmful therapies like rebirthing, emotionaly cathartic therapies, LGAT's which in the mental helth community are considered in the same breath as say Alien Abduction Therapy.
There should be no reason why your attorney and your paid expert witnesses, mental health experts, cannot come up with an accpetable alternative,other than incarceration anyplace, particularly since you are going willing to pay for it. The DA may go for one to three but judges also consider the cost and the amount of places that are available.
You are a little hard on therapy. Try to think of it not so much as what you did was wrong, but how I can make the communication between me and my son better. If nothing less than incarceration for a year or more will do for this judge there are programs that are a lot easier time to do than a dispicable WWASP program. But understand that programs are just about doing easier time. Residential treatment is therapuitically ineffective and possibly harmful according to the US government. So it is about finding the least damaging program. Involve your son in the decision process. It is his life, he needs to have some responsibity for the choices. Be good
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On 2006-05-03 21:05:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"How the hell a kid gonna get 3 years for ripping off a pickle jar full of change?
What else is on his rap sheet?
Sounds to me like you ought to spend your money on a better lawyer.
...
I would strongly suggest going to the judge and finding out exactly where your boy is going to be doing time, or if there is some alternative that can be found.
...
The only other thing on his rap sheet is truancy citations. The DA is basing their decision on his school record mainly. They have some theory that if kids aren't doing good in school, that they'll be future criminals. The theory is to keep it from happening while they're young. Plus my lawyer said there were other tip jars taken in town so they want to make an example out of my kid for it. Like I said though they let a caucasian kid that was with him off with a lesser charge even though he's clearly doing poorly in school.
The judge may give him a lesser sentence yes, but he might not either. I'm fully expecting my kid to get at least a year. He'll have a felony conviction on his record too. Hopefully that can be removed when he's older.
I suppose I can ask the judge about alternatives. I'm not going to hold my breath though.
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Worried Dad:
This sucks! Especially that the caucasian kid got a lesser charge.
If your son gets a felony conviction, he can get it overturned/erased if he stays on the straight and narrow after this.
I share your realistically powerless view about what an individual can do to protect his/her offspring from the various vagaries of the court sytem.
I think it might mean a lot to your son that you are trying to fight for him, however lost this particular cause might be. A year in jail would truly be a horrible sentence for a $37 tip jar, but, I must agree, it all other arguments fail, jail is better than WWASPS. At least you'll get to see him, he can attend some classes if he chooses to. It's up to him whether he picks up worse habits, you can't control that.
You have my sympathy and I also think you are brave for coming on here, smart for checking it out, and even smarter for absorbing the message despite wincing at the delivery.
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On 2006-05-03 20:36:00, Worried Dad wrote:
"
On 2006-05-03 20:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Worried Dad, Horizon Academy is NOT accredited. The link you posted leads to a list of programs/schools "accredited" by the Northwest Accreditation organization. Anyone who wants to get accredited by them has to pay a fee and be "reviewed" by a "team of peers"-- in WWASPS's case, their own executives. There is no REAL accrediting going on.
Read more here:
http://www.isaccorp.org (http://www.isaccorp.org)"
Yes that's what I was afraid of, thanks. It sounds a lot like the "Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval." It just means they paid for it."
Look closer, Dad. This is the accrediting body that accredits ALL of the public schools in several states. All accrediting agencies charge a fee, and all include a peer review. The one conducted by NAAS is quite extensive, and includes a week-long campus visit. The "peers" are academic professionals.
Our school is accredited by NAAS, and our credits are accepted at every school and college in the country. Don't believe me. Look into NAAS and consider calling them for more information.
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If there is no way that the judge will go for a sentence other than incarceration check out this Tyler Ranch in Oragon. THIS IS IN NO WAY AN ENDORSEMENT OF THAT PROGRAM OR PROGRAMS IN GENERAL. This comes under the heading of mitigation of damages. There are a couple of superficial facts that make me think this program might be less harmful than most. This program at least allows your kid to go to a normal public school. So of his sixteen waking hours 8 of them are spent with normal kids. If there was some horrible abuse, kids could tell a school counselor or split. It is run by a nonprofit agency so there is little more accountability. If they take in state placements they certainly would be subject to some sort of state oversight. Not that it is any great protection. Apparantly they don't force kids to open up. Therapy in that setting is usually ineffective because kids are captive,and to get out,they learn to say what the therapist wants to hear. It doesn't appear to be an "emotional growth school" so there is a reasonable chance it is a traditional type of therapy, not whacky like rebirthing, beating a towel against the floor while screaming at picture of relatives, or your son. This place also takes kids in from 6 to 18, which means that your kid is going to be one of the bigger ones, less likely he is going to be physically intimidated. Of course there are always minimum wage poorly trained houseparents, and an overabundance of chores, but the kid is likely to survive with his body and soul intact. I don't know this place or have any affiliation of any kind with it. I suggest it only in the sense of your kid mabbe doing some easier time if he has to be incarcerated someplace. A pragmatic lesser of the evils. Of course mabbe the place is the worst shithole on earth. Just a place to research. Pick up the book "Help At Any Cost"
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Our school is accredited by NAAS, and our credits are accepted at every school and college in the country. Don't believe me. Look into NAAS and consider calling them for more information.
Yeah I don't believe you because I had to retake several classes in California to be entered into Community College! You are a shill and a liar for your employer, you couldn't be anymore obvious!
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Our school is accredited by NAAS, and our credits are accepted at every school and college in the country. Don't believe me. Look into NAAS and consider calling them for more information.
Your school might be accredited by NAAS-- but it is also accredited by your regional accreditation board, which is the only accreditation that counts. WWASPS "schools" have no regional accreditation-- just NAAS. So, no, they're not accredited.
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Our school is accredited by NAAS, and our credits are accepted at every school and college in the country. Don't believe me. Look into NAAS and consider calling them for more information.
This is a huge and provable lie. NAAS is a JOKE and any WWASPS diploma is garbage on its face. Ask any kid who was barred from college entry. There are many of them.
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I had to take several courses in college to catch me up because my Browning Academy education paled in comparison to the other freshman, who'd attended schools where the teachers taught. I was unprepared for the content of college courses and to be able to pass mandatory entrance exams to begin at 101 level courses. So, I paid for beginner courses to basically redo what WWASP claimed they'd taught me and that I received As in.
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On 2006-05-04 01:07:00, Worried Dad wrote:
"
On 2006-05-03 21:05:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"How the hell a kid gonna get 3 years for ripping off a pickle jar full of change?
What else is on his rap sheet?
Sounds to me like you ought to spend your money on a better lawyer.
...
I would strongly suggest going to the judge and finding out exactly where your boy is going to be doing time, or if there is some alternative that can be found.
...
The only other thing on his rap sheet is truancy citations. The DA is basing their decision on his school record mainly. They have some theory that if kids aren't doing good in school, that they'll be future criminals. The theory is to keep it from happening while they're young. Plus my lawyer said there were other tip jars taken in town so they want to make an example out of my kid for it. Like I said though they let a caucasian kid that was with him off with a lesser charge even though he's clearly doing poorly in school.
The judge may give him a lesser sentence yes, but he might not either. I'm fully expecting my kid to get at least a year. He'll have a felony conviction on his record too. Hopefully that can be removed when he's older.
I suppose I can ask the judge about alternatives. I'm not going to hold my breath though. "
Dad, unless your kid threatened someone with a weapon to get that tip jar, there is no way they can convict him of a felony. $37 is petty theft.
Get a better lawyer.
They let a white kid off for the same thing? It's called selective enforcement and it's a no-no. Call the NAACP or the SPLC and get a referral to a *much* better lawyer.
Do Not Take This Crap.
Also, juvenile records get sealed. Your kid can not have an adult felony record for a $37 juvenile petty theft.
You need a better lawyer, because the DA is figuratively doing the Abner Louima dance on your butt.
Get a lawyer who (if all else fails) will not balk at calling the press and raising holy hell that a non-white kid is getting a year or more and a felony over $37 and a white kid is getting nada.
We had a mother on here who was suffering the same kind of crap you are where the law had stuck her daughter in a boot camp over something trivial and they were going to keep her for a long time, wouldn't say when she was coming home, the girl was sick and injured and they were taking her medicine away and ignoring doctors' orders.
We kept telling her to get a lawyer, get a lawyer.
She finally got a good lawyer and *BAM!* that garbage miraculously stopped.
Sometimes people who like to have control and power over other people get in positions of authority and abuse that power.
Your kid shouldn't have done what he did, but his wrong doesn't make it right for the DA to railroad your child into the system over petty theft as if he'd stolen a car or broken into someone's house and burgled a lot of expensive stuff.
You don't punish jaywalking with the penalties on the books for murder, and you don't punish petty theft with the penalties on the books for grand theft auto.
Get a lawyer. Get a damned good lawyer.
Julie
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On 2006-05-06 07:19:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"With the kind of case that kid is facing all you really need is a blind monkey to plea out the details with the right spin. ...to disarm the people (is) the best and most effective way to enslave them...
-- George Mason
"
My family was completely railroaded on a case with zero evidence and accusations that changed every time the 'victims' were interviewed.
NEVER underestimate the ability of a DA to "make a case" where there isnt one.
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On 2006-05-06 15:10:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"
On 2006-05-06 07:19:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"With the kind of case that kid is facing all you really need is a blind monkey to plea out the details with the right spin. ...to disarm the people (is) the best and most effective way to enslave them...
-- George Mason
"
My family was completely railroaded on a case with zero evidence and accusations that changed every time the 'victims' were interviewed.
NEVER underestimate the ability of a DA to "make a case" where there isnt one. "
Amen.
We saw a case in animal court where the owners of a rottie were railroaded because the judge hated the breed of dog.
Their dog had been chained in their yard when someone who they'd told to leave it alone came in the yard, teasing it, and got bitten.
Absolutely not their fault, under the laws of our state and county.
They had a witness (neighbor) who was home and watching and saw the whole thing.
The chick who got bit lied and said the dog was loose---but she didn't even show up to court. The judge relied on the inadmissable hearsay testimony of the animal control officer about what the chick had said.
Zero admissable evidence, and they were not even allowed to call their witness on their behalf---they tried. Since the woman was not there, they were (obviously) not allowed to cross examine the witness against them.
They were innocent, and they got convicted because the judge hated rottweilers, and already had made up his mind that if you were an accused in his court, you were guilty.
We looked him up. The judge's prior job was with the DA's office prosecuting habitual offenders. But yeah, he's completely impartial. Not.
Their constitutional rights were violated six ways from Sunday, and the judge felt absolutely confident in doing so because of ONE THING:
They didn't have a lawyer.
Get a lawyer. Get a good lawyer. If you have a lawyer and he isn't rubbing his hands and salivating over defending a client from a felony charge who only stole 37 dollars, then your lawyer sucks---get a better one.
It's the DA's job to get convictions and put people away, not to be fair.
It's the judge's job to be fair, but without a lawyer? Fat chance. The DA knows the judge. If the DA thinks he can get away with murder with that judge--he probably can.
Also, there's an old saying: A good lawyer knows the law. A great lawyer knows the judge.
Julie
(If the people with the rottie had had a lawyer, the judge still *could* have done everything he did, but the lawyer would have appealed, and won. And he also could have referred the judge for disciplinary action, which likely would have stuck.)
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Sorry I've dragged this thread so far off topic.
Another lawyer isn't going to help at this point. Thank you for the advice though. Well my son confessed to the crime so there's no doubt he's guilty. That was my fault because I didn't believe they'd charge him with a felony for such a petty crime. Also he's plead guilty already to get a deferred judgement against the DA's wishes. If he straightens out the whole thing will be removed from his record.
I went to court with him on Friday expecting him to be tossed in jail for at least a year. The judge gave him a stern warning instead. We have to go back to court in a couple of months to see if he's improved. The DA might be harsh, but the judge seemed to have some sense.
I believe some people here are right that some time in jail might help him. I'm just hoping it's not one to three years.
Anyway thank you for all the advice. I'm still plugging along.
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The lawyer he had did just fine. This is the result I would have expected.
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Sometimes there's a tendency to scare juvenile offenders and even their parents, because most of the time kids get probation and maybe community service or restitution.
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WorriedDad,
Never give up on him. You might think he is not listening but TSW is wrong. Kids are listening even when they pretend they are not and repitition and consistency helps. So don't stop telling your son what you believe in.
Also, now that the court has had its say, what about you? You may consider some positive things the boy can do to restore his honor with you. Does your garage need cleaning, car need washing? After all, you bailed him out. He owes you a favor.
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When people repeat shit to me it just annoys me. :roll:
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and how much experience with WWASP do you have TSW?
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All the experience you need is to listen to Jay Kay and freinds on tape and video. If you don't find him moraly offensive you are ethically challanged
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On 2006-05-09 00:46:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"When people repeat shit to me it just annoys me. :smile:
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On 2006-05-09 19:43:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"What is so wrong with baking your kid like a pizza?
:???: :???: Infidel: In New York, one who does not believe in the Christian religion, in Constantinople, one who does.
--Ambrose Bierce
"
Nothing wrong!!! Hey, I just had pizza for breakfast! I bet you Randall Hinton is just beating himself over the head for saying such a lame ass thing!
It just shows you what kind of person he is, and the level of edjucation he has.
It's good for a laugh though! I wish we could have a link just for that 1 minute segment. Or even audio and play it over and over. Like that one time I went to one of the threads here, and there were crickets chirping.
Well, you should be able to click onto WWASPS and have some scary background music playing with Randall Hinton talking.
Make it happen!