Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools (WWASPS) => Topic started by: Anonymous on April 25, 2006, 08:24:00 PM
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While I agree these programs need to be shut down, it appears to me the real problem is the PARENTS who dump their kids into these abusive hellholes than later claim they were duped.
Come on! DUPED???? How about taking some responsibility for not talking to their kid for months, even years, while modifying their behavior?
There is no excuse anymore. The Internet is loaded with material suggesting these programs have a history of abuse. Are these parents living in a vacuum? Of course not.
Are they brainwashed? Maybe so but most of these kids have a relative or sibling that has heard about how bad some of these programs are and have managed to get their loved ones out -- either by convincing the parent to pull the kid or going to court.
There are thousands of parents who use these programs and even if they don't know what the hell is going on behind closed doors, they SHOULD KNOW.
IGNORANCE IS NO EXCUSE!
Parents who love these programs are in need of a reality check not coddling.
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On 2006-04-25 17:24:00, Anonymous
There is no excuse anymore. The Internet is loaded with material suggesting these programs have a history of abuse. Are these parents living in a vacuum? Of course not.
Are they brainwashed? Maybe so but most of these kids have a relative or sibling that has heard about how bad some of these programs are and have managed to get their loved ones out -- either by convincing the parent to pull the kid or going to court.
There are thousands of parents who use these programs and even if they don't know what the hell is going on behind closed doors, they SHOULD KNOW.
IGNORANCE IS NO EXCUSE!
Parents who love these programs are in need of a reality check not coddling.
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You are absolutely right. Most people wouldn't send their dog to a kennel without checking it out in person. I do not believe most of the parents are ignorant, they send their kids away to punish them, sort of the ultimate time out. It is a socially acceptable way of abusing your non-conforming offspring without going to jail.
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Hmmm....What if it pees everywhere, won't house break, chews on everything, growls at every family member? What if the dog becomes vicious, now biting everyone in the house, hiding behind funiture and when least expected, leaps out and mauls the baby? Wouldn't the owner quickly remove it? Get it trained? Teach the family how to deal with the dog? Now before you get all over me about training...you are the one that made the dog analogy!
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On 2006-04-26 10:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hmmm....What if it pees everywhere, won't house break, chews on everything, growls at every family member? What if the dog becomes vicious, now biting everyone in the house, hiding behind funiture and when least expected, leaps out and mauls the baby? Wouldn't the owner quickly remove it? Get it trained? Teach the family how to deal with the dog? Now before you get all over me about training...you are the one that made the dog analogy! "
A good dog owner would have had their dog trained before any of the bad behavior started. If it had been let to go that long without training, they could bring a trainer in to train THE DOG OWNER, not the dog in the proper way to train a dog. Dog's are not stupid and do not become vicious on their own, it means their owner did a piss poor job in raising it. Yuppies around here think they can ship their dog off to a trainer for a week and get back a new dog, and then wonder why nothing changed when the dog comes home. Good dog trainers realize they have to train the dog owner, not the dog itself. The dog owner needs to spend time using positive reinforcement, instead of screaming and kicking the dog.
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On 2006-04-26 10:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
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On 2006-04-26 10:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hmmm....What if it pees everywhere, won't house break, chews on everything, growls at every family member? What if the dog becomes vicious, now biting everyone in the house, hiding behind funiture and when least expected, leaps out and mauls the baby? Wouldn't the owner quickly remove it? Get it trained? Teach the family how to deal with the dog? Now before you get all over me about training...you are the one that made the dog analogy! "
A good dog owner would have had their dog trained before any of the bad behavior started. If it had been let to go that long without training, they could bring a trainer in to train THE DOG OWNER, not the dog in the proper way to train a dog. Dog's are not stupid and do not become vicious on their own, it means their owner did a piss poor job in raising it. Yuppies around here think they can ship their dog off to a trainer for a week and get back a new dog, and then wonder why nothing changed when the dog comes home. Good dog trainers realize they have to train the dog owner, not the dog itself. The dog owner needs to spend time using positive reinforcement, instead of screaming and kicking the dog."
Damn that's good! Wish I had said it...lol. The term they're contantly using in WWASP programs is "Accountability". Well my question is where is the accountability on the parents part? Do you just throw your kid in a program because YOU can't fix the problem? Why are some parents so quick to "get rid" of the problem by sending their kids away? After talking to a few of the parents of kids in the program I see why some of these kids are the way they are. Granted, some of them have done some horrible things and aren't being "perfect" teenagers, but then what teenager is perfect, and for that matter, what parent is perfect? I know I'm certainly not! I do know that I am accountable for certain behaviors my child now exhibits and I'm at least taking the time to do something about it. The emphasis is on "I'm taking the time" not sending them to someone else to correct. I allowed this behavior to begin, so it's my responsibility to take care of it. I've done so by asking other parents their advise and actually listening to ideas they throw out to me. It's not easy to admit that I contributed to some of his negative behavior, but damn it I do!
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Why is everyone blaming the parents? I sent my daughter to a TBS and it isn?t my fault, wasnt my daughters fault, No siree, It must be my parents fault, it was the way I was raised. They didn?t train me properly, so they lacked parental skills which were never handed down to me. If I were them I would be mad as hell that they were never made aware of this by their parents? what is this world coming to, I wish they would log in, I would rip them apart, what were they thinking their own granddaughter for Christ sake, who taught them this stuff!!!
Anyway, she came thru it okay as do the majority of kids, with a little help from the school and family as did myself and generations before us, and so will the ones to follow.
[ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-04-26 21:22 ][ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-04-26 21:28 ]
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On 2006-04-26 21:16:00, TheWho wrote:
"Why is everyone blaming the parents? I sent my daughter to a TBS and it isn?t my fault. No siree, It must be my parents fault, it was the way I was raised. They didn?t train me properly, so they lacked parental skills which were never handed down to me. If I were them I would be mad as hell that they were never made aware of this by their parents? what is this world coming to, I wish they would log in, I would rip them apart, what were they thinking their own granddaughter for Christ sake, who taught them this stuff!!!
Anyway, she came thru it okay as do the majority of kids, with a little help from the school and family as did myself and generations before us, and so will the ones to follow.
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You sent your kid to a WWASP school?
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On 2006-04-26 21:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
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On 2006-04-26 21:16:00, TheWho wrote:
"Why is everyone blaming the parents? I sent my daughter to a TBS and it isn?t my fault. No siree, It must be my parents fault, it was the way I was raised. They didn?t train me properly, so they lacked parental skills which were never handed down to me. If I were them I would be mad as hell that they were never made aware of this by their parents? what is this world coming to, I wish they would log in, I would rip them apart, what were they thinking their own granddaughter for Christ sake, who taught them this stuff!!!
Anyway, she came thru it okay as do the majority of kids, with a little help from the school and family as did myself and generations before us, and so will the ones to follow.
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You sent your kid to a WWASP school? "
No it wasnt a WWASP school.
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No it wasnt a WWASP school.
Did you consider using a WWASP school? How come?
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On 2006-04-27 05:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"No it wasnt a WWASP school.
Did you consider using a WWASP school? How come?"
At the time we had never heard of WWASP.
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On 2006-04-26 21:16:00, TheWho wrote:
"Why is everyone blaming the parents? I sent my daughter to a TBS and it isn?t my fault, wasnt my daughters fault, No siree, It must be my parents fault, it was the way I was raised. They didn?t train me properly, so they lacked parental skills which were never handed down to me. If I were them I would be mad as hell that they were never made aware of this by their parents? what is this world coming to, I wish they would log in, I would rip them apart, what were they thinking their own granddaughter for Christ sake, who taught them this stuff!!!
Anyway, she came thru it okay as do the majority of kids, with a little help from the school and family as did myself and generations before us, and so will the ones to follow.
[ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-04-26 21:22 ][ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-04-26 21:28 ]"
Well, it would've been nice if you could've taken care of biz on your own without sending your daughter away to strangers. But, whatever.......your choice not mine.
Just another generation of your family being totally disfunctional. Not surprising, sounds like you come from a long line of idiots.
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At the time we had never heard of WWASP.
If you had been able to read this forum and WWASP literature before placing your child, would have considered WWASPS over wherever you sent your child?
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I read and post at an attachment parenting forum. In a nutshell, attachment parenting is basically: "a philosophy based in the practice of nurturing parenting practices that create strong emotional bonds, also known as secure attachment, between the infant and parent(s). This style of parenting encourages responsiveness to the infant or child's emotional needs, and develops trust that their emotional needs will be met. As a result, this strong attachment helps the child develop secure, empathic, peaceful, and enduring relationships."
I have noticed lately that many of the people who subscribe to this type of parenting are totally hypocritical when their children become teenagers. For example, this lady yesterday posted this story about her 15yo daughter who had a physical fight with the dad. They called the cops on her. The cops said if they didn't pick her up in 24 hours, she would be placed in foster care. So they told the cops to keep her. She casually mentioned that the daughter blames the parents for the older sister committing suicide. Then she mentions that she's looking into a "tough-love" camp to put her in. She said she wanted advice.
All these people replied with "Oh you poor thing" and the like. When I replied, I pointed out the hypocrisy of being a member of an attachment parenting board and posting about tough love options. I pointed out that the daughter is likely acting out because of trauma from her sister's death, and maybe they should get her into therapy, etc.
The lady totally lashed out at me, saying that she doesn't need any extra guilt. I wasn't disrespectful at all, but she told me to stop responding to her posts. She said that the daughter is totally disrupting the family. They have a bunch of younger kids that they need to worry about.
It seemed totally obvious to me that she wanted to get rid of the daughter and wanted other parents to coddle her over her decision. Basically, this woman had made up her mind before she asked for advice. She wanted to get the okay from her peers. And, for the most part, she got it.
I tend to think that most of the parents who send their kids to WWASPS or similar programs have the same attitude, the same excuses. That's why they're so easily sold on the programs. They are looking for someone to say, "Hey, it's not your fault." And they get that from the people selling the program. They want someone to tell them that what they are doing is the most loving thing they could do. So they welcome these reassurances from staff and program parents.
So yes, I think parents are to blame.
BUT, I think it is counter-productive to waste too much time on it. If you want to convince parents that WWASPS, et al. is bad, and you know the parents want to be coddled, then try to market them the way WWASPS does: "Oh you poor parents, duped by the big bad corporation." It's a means to an end, really.
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On 2006-04-27 08:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
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At the time we had never heard of WWASP.
If you had been able to read this forum and WWASP literature before placing your child, would have considered WWASPS over wherever you sent your child?"
No, I would not have. I am not sure where I would have ended up. I think the choice I made was a good one, but I got lucky. After reading this forum, in hind sight, I might have made some bad choices.
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Please remember that WWASPS has great marketing and are great liars. A few years ago when I was looking for a school for my teenager, there were not the sites that are out there now that show the other side.
We thought we did our best to check out a school that was out of the country. We were giving our child an opportunity to get out of his rut and experience culture change and catch up in school. He was not a bad kid, and we were not trying to get rid of him. We physically checked the school, talked with many parents that had their child there, talked with many employees about how this school was run. They all had the same story, as they are taught to give, and we thought we were doing our child a favor. They out and out lied to us on many issues. Of course, when we found out what was really happening, we got him out and have been fighting side by side together making sure that this doesn't happen to others.
You can go check on a kennel for your dog, see the wonderful place that it will be staying, talk with the great people that will be giving your animal love while you are gone and feel great that you have chosen this place for it. There is no guarentee that when you drive out, that your dog is put in this great enviroment. They could have been hiding the discusting back rooms where they really keep the animals and you would never know it.
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On 2006-04-27 12:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Please remember that WWASPS has great marketing and are great liars. A few years ago when I was looking for a school for my teenager, there were not the sites that are out there now that show the other side.
We thought we did our best to check out a school that was out of the country. We were giving our child an opportunity to get out of his rut and experience culture change and catch up in school. He was not a bad kid, and we were not trying to get rid of him. We physically checked the school, talked with many parents that had their child there, talked with many employees about how this school was run. They all had the same story, as they are taught to give, and we thought we were doing our child a favor. They out and out lied to us on many issues. Of course, when we found out what was really happening, we got him out and have been fighting side by side together making sure that this doesn't happen to others.
You can go check on a kennel for your dog, see the wonderful place that it will be staying, talk with the great people that will be giving your animal love while you are gone and feel great that you have chosen this place for it. There is no guarentee that when you drive out, that your dog is put in this great enviroment. They could have been hiding the discusting back rooms where they really keep the animals and you would never know it. "
Sounds like you made the right choice based on the information you had at the time. Too bad there are people out there who deceive others purely for profit. It makes it that much harder for those who are trying to help the kids.
You are right about the kennel analogy, but at some point you have to have some faith in the path you choose. All we can do is make the best decision, with our child?s welfare in mind.
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On 2006-04-27 11:27:00, The Liger wrote:
"I read and post at an attachment parenting forum. In a nutshell, attachment parenting is basically: "a philosophy based in the practice of nurturing parenting practices that create strong emotional bonds, also known as secure attachment, between the infant and parent(s). This style of parenting encourages responsiveness to the infant or child's emotional needs, and develops trust that their emotional needs will be met. As a result, this strong attachment helps the child develop secure, empathic, peaceful, and enduring relationships."
I have noticed lately that many of the people who subscribe to this type of parenting are totally hypocritical when their children become teenagers. For example, this lady yesterday posted this story about her 15yo daughter who had a physical fight with the dad. They called the cops on her. The cops said if they didn't pick her up in 24 hours, she would be placed in foster care. So they told the cops to keep her. She casually mentioned that the daughter blames the parents for the older sister committing suicide. Then she mentions that she's looking into a "tough-love" camp to put her in. She said she wanted advice.
All these people replied with "Oh you poor thing" and the like. When I replied, I pointed out the hypocrisy of being a member of an attachment parenting board and posting about tough love options. I pointed out that the daughter is likely acting out because of trauma from her sister's death, and maybe they should get her into therapy, etc.
The lady totally lashed out at me, saying that she doesn't need any extra guilt. I wasn't disrespectful at all, but she told me to stop responding to her posts. She said that the daughter is totally disrupting the family. They have a bunch of younger kids that they need to worry about.
It seemed totally obvious to me that she wanted to get rid of the daughter and wanted other parents to coddle her over her decision. Basically, this woman had made up her mind before she asked for advice. She wanted to get the okay from her peers. And, for the most part, she got it.
I tend to think that most of the parents who send their kids to WWASPS or similar programs have the same attitude, the same excuses. That's why they're so easily sold on the programs. They are looking for someone to say, "Hey, it's not your fault." And they get that from the people selling the program. They want someone to tell them that what they are doing is the most loving thing they could do. So they welcome these reassurances from staff and program parents.
So yes, I think parents are to blame.
BUT, I think it is counter-productive to waste too much time on it. If you want to convince parents that WWASPS, et al. is bad, and you know the parents want to be coddled, then try to market them the way WWASPS does: "Oh you poor parents, duped by the big bad corporation." It's a means to an end, really.
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Thanks Liger, You wouldn?t believe how many posters here just make blanket statements that place the blame on all the parents. They cant see that every incident is different, there are so many environmental, social stimuli (i.e. attachment) and genetic factors that to try to tie the root cause to just parental techniques (in every instance) is an amazing statement that lacks thought, in my opinion.
Looking at this from an individual, case by case bases, I could agree. Some kids should never have attended and did poorly and maybe the parents feel duped out of their money. But the ones whose kids did very well feel it was worth every dime and would have paid twice the price. Like everything else there are always those cases where the parents did it for the wrong reason but I think this is the exception.
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To the anon parent whose son was in a foreign WWASP school. I am glad that you are doing what you can to expose the WWASP marketing racket but you do not get a free pass. Why did you not have your child examined by a mental health professional? If you went to the detention camp how could you not notice that something was very wrong? Why on gods earth would you accept no contact with the child? Why didn't you get a copy of the inmate rules? Did you look at the bathrooms, check the living quarters, speak to the inmates? Did you read the contract? Did you have a lawyer check the contract? Did you see if the school was accredited? Did you get a checklist of any kind from any professional association? You used no professional help of any kind. You were paying in the neighborhood of 40k or more but used the same "due diligence" you might for a lawnmower. If you wanted your kid to go to college don't you think you should have checked to see if the credits would be acceptable. Don't you think it should have been a red flag when a contract talks about electronic and chemical restraints? I will never understand how you could place your son out of the protection of US laws in a foreign lockdown. Your actions amount to negligent child care in my opinion. Although I think that their is rarely any child that thrives hundreds of miles away from his natural support systems (not talking about traditional boarding schools) I can understand, without supporting that decision, a decision making proccess that led to placement in a less austere facility, assuming resonable due diligence and care. But placing a kid in a WWASP facility is utterly beyond my comprehension. No free pass, but good marks for recognizing your mistake, and attempting to make it a little better, by exposing the WWASP scam.
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On 2006-04-27 14:04:00, Badpuppy wrote:
"To the anon parent whose son was in a foreign WWASP school. I am glad that you are doing what you can to expose the WWASP marketing racket but you do not get a free pass. Why did you not have your child examined by a mental health professional? If you went to the detention camp how could you not notice that something was very wrong? Why on gods earth would you accept no contact with the child? Why didn't you get a copy of the inmate rules? Did you look at the bathrooms, check the living quarters, speak to the inmates? Did you read the contract? Did you have a lawyer check the contract? Did you see if the school was accredited? Did you get a checklist of any kind from any professional association? You used no professional help of any kind. You were paying in the neighborhood of 40k or more but used the same "due diligence" you might for a lawnmower. If you wanted your kid to go to college don't you think you should have checked to see if the credits would be acceptable. Don't you think it should have been a red flag when a contract talks about electronic and chemical restraints? I will never understand how you could place your son out of the protection of US laws in a foreign lockdown. Your actions amount to negligent child care in my opinion. Although I think that their is rarely any child that thrives hundreds of miles away from his natural support systems (not talking about traditional boarding schools) I can understand, without supporting that decision, a decision making proccess that led to placement in a less austere facility, assuming resonable due diligence and care. But placing a kid in a WWASP facility is utterly beyond my comprehension. No free pass, but good marks for recognizing your mistake, and attempting to make it a little better, by exposing the WWASP scam."
Well said BP. I think the ex WWASPS parents are to be commended for speaking out - but most defintly, should not be given a free pass. Too many red flags that were missed with no legitimate reason that I have ever heard. Ditto the use of abuctors-for-hire to take a kid by force to one of these lock down facilities out of the U.S or some program in Montana, Utah, Idaho, etc. I read that one parent actually drugged their kid so they wouldn't resist. How pathetic is that? What amazes me is the parents who are suing. I can see a kid suing (their parents and the program) but a parent suing the program to recoup their money? That's insane. It's their child who paid the biggest price and can NEVER EVER regain those lost years.
:eek:
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Well, what about Sue Scheff at PURE? Isn't she suing WWASP for what she says was abuse of her daughter at a WWASP facility? And Sue Scheff was one of the most successful people to REFER other parents to WWASP facilities around. She sure didn't mind sending OTHER PARENTS to WWASP as long as WWASP was paying her the big bucks.
And now Sue Scheff dares to criticize the parents she referred to Whitmore Academy because they filed a civil case against the Sudweeks? And Cheryl Sudweeks is facing a criminal trial for abusing some of the kids Scheff referred to Whitmore. This woman/parent makes no sense at all.
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On 2006-04-26 10:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hmmm....What if it pees everywhere, won't house break, chews on everything, growls at every family member? What if the dog becomes vicious, now biting everyone in the house, hiding behind funiture and when least expected, leaps out and mauls the baby? Wouldn't the owner quickly remove it? Get it trained? Teach the family how to deal with the dog? Now before you get all over me about training...you are the one that made the dog analogy! "
Uh, if a dog behaves that way its because his "owner" is too fucking lazy to spend the time to train it properly. IT'S NOT THE DOG'S FAULT THAT IT HAS NOT BEEN "SOCIALIZED" !
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Although the parents were negligent the WWASPS run in my opinion a FRAUD and RACKET. I believe that this makes the proportional responsibilty of the childs injuries a far greater liability on the WWASPS. The only good thing about the WWASPS program is their connection to each other. I believe eventually, the RICO statutes will be used against them and close them all.
One of the big reasons these programs have not been shut down is because parents don't want to go to court. By going to court the parents expose themselves to potential liability from their child, the shame and humiliation of their failure to do their "due dilagence" as well as any nasty skelatins in their closets. It takes a lot of courage and integrity to publicly admit these failures.
Kids if you have been the victim of these programs check to see if you have a case. The ACLU or state chapter of the ACLU may be interested representing you. Also get some references from the state bar. Big lawfirms often have pro bono programs. It may be hard work and very frustrating finding a lawyer to help you. But know that bringing a lawsuit, if your are able, may bring you a little revenge, and help the next kid from suffering your fate.
Parents, it takes extreme courage to admit what you did in public trial. But think of what was done to your kid. Hopefully you and your kid will feel some real empowerment, not the fraudulant WWASP kind. This is an extremely tough road, but a little check at the end of it, for both you and your kid, might just help restore some trust. Not a lawyer but god bless all of you, except for WASSP facility owners.
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The Program / Kennel analogy is really apt when you come to think about it.
I have worked in Kennels. I have Quite in protest - much as some program staff will do. I can tell you some of the common promises broken by Kennel operators:
1. Your pet will get its medicine on time, as prescribed.
Truth - your pet might get it medicine on occasion. Their isn't any organization about providing the medication; and the overworked staff do not take the time to give the animals meds. Also, we might sell your medication; or take it home for our animals.
2. Your pet will be taken out of its kennel several times a day for play and potty breaks.
Truth - your pet Might get to go outside for a few minutes in the morning, and a few minutes at night, while the kennel is cleaned. If it does its business then, fine. If not, it will sleep in it, and lay in it, all day. This is why we offer the "free" bath before pick up. It is also possible it will only be moved from its dirty kennel to one that's been cleaned. Many kennels do this shifting between kennels - and the dogs never see the light of day - for how ever long the owners leave them there. This is why well house trained dogs often return home seeming to have forgotten all their training. They have been forced to forget it.
3. Your pet will be allowed its bed and toys.
Truth - they are bagged up and tagged for return to you (maybe) but the pet will never see then. It is impossible to keep them clean and dry in a urine and feces covered run. Also, as with meds - they might be taken home by the staff.
4. Your pet will be feed the food you provide.
Truth - the food is dumped in a common barrel which all the dogs are fed from. Or if a premium unopened bag, it might be placed on the floor for sale. If canned food, it is sometimes feed when someone feels like messing with it - but not necessarily to your pet. Also, very often the better food items as well as treat items go home with the staff for their pets.
5. Your pet is being watched over by dedicated animal lovers who will treat it with kindness and affection.
Truth - in some cases, this is true.
But also, there are large numbers of staff who are ignorant about animals - do not really like animals - but who can find no other work. It is very low pay for a lot of unpleasant work, and many who do it, come to hate and resent the animals, and take their frustration out on them. Cruel behavior is very common. When complained about by other staff, it is ignored - and in fact may get the complaining staff member ostracized or even fired - b/c you can't have animal protection wakkos working in a kennel. If they fired every staff member who kicked a dog; or chocked a dog; or threw a cat against the wall - well you wouldn't be able to keep enough staff on to run a kennel! And, you also have a certain percentage of sadist who clearly enjoy the power they have over the helpless beast, and who use it to inflict pain and suffering for their demented pleasure.
Now - does the animal's owner have much chance of ever learning the truth? No, they do not. If they are aware of the possibility, and knowledgeable about animal behavior, they might pick up on some red flags - but most don't. Some actually scold their pet for urinating in their fear upon entering the facility.
Also, it is not unusual for the kennel/ shelter (for all of the above it true of shelters, with the added risk of immediate euthanasia thrown in)
to have a glowing reputation in the community - so much so - that those who try to speak out are seen as lying manipulators with an agenda. Disgruntled staff an so on. Nothing they say is believed - b/c of this glowing reputation, and the feeling it must not be sullied by unsubstantiated gossip.
Can the owners be blamed for their ignorance? Perhaps. But finding the truth is difficult no matter how much research one does - and visiting does little or no good - b/c of corse none of this take place in front of prospective clients. The most vicious sadist will go on about how much they love the animals; pet them, talk about their personalities and quirks - as if they do indeed love them.
Now consider this: yes it is the animals who suffer - but do the owners not have a right, even an obligation, to sue for damages if they do find evidence of cruel and inhumane treatment? If their pets come out of their stay cowering in fear; looking thin and starved; showing obvious soreness from the beating - or a throat noticeable swollen and soar from the chocking?
Even if animals could sue (as young adults can) wouldn't the owner also have a case for fraud, as well as their pain and suffering from learning how their pet was treated?
I think so. In fact, as I mentioned - I feel they have an obligation to do what ever it is possible to do to bring the true situation to light - and that is most often a law sute. Criminal charges should be persuied - but this requires the states involvement - and they often do not want to pursue such cases. So, that leaves civil litigation - and absolutly, the owners / parents should pursue this option.
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One more similairity comes to mind -
The staff often have great contempt for the owners b/c of the owners un-founded trust and ignorance. These Stupid people who leave their animals in these concrete and wire hell holes deserve to be fukked over, is pretty much the overwhelming attitude of the operators and staff. That they have been lied to and manipulated does not figure into the assessment of their intelligence and character by the staff.
Much the same as has been expressed by staff at some programs.
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Just because a parent belongs to an Attachment group, as the parent who posted here previously lauding these Gulag camps, does not mean that they are totally commited to the best interests of their children.
Just look at the number of deaths that have occuried from "bonding" and "holding" experiences in the name of attachment. Many states have outlawed this type of bogus therapy after children died at the hands of their "therapsists" and I use that term loosely and these parents hell-bent on making their children "attach." In reality, parents who stoop to this level are control freaks who are trying to recreate someone in their own image. This doesn't happen with birth children. Many of these parents do not adopt for altrusitic reasons, rather, self serving and narcissitc reasons are their motivation. And then they become angry that this child won't bend totally to their will and become a clone of themselves.
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On 2006-04-27 14:04:00, Badpuppy wrote:
"To the anon parent whose son was in a foreign WWASP school. I am glad that you are doing what you can to expose the WWASP marketing racket but you do not get a free pass. Why did you not have your child examined by a mental health professional? If you went to the detention camp how could you not notice that something was very wrong? Why on gods earth would you accept no contact with the child? Why didn't you get a copy of the inmate rules? Did you look at the bathrooms, check the living quarters, speak to the inmates? Did you read the contract? Did you have a lawyer check the contract? Did you see if the school was accredited? Did you get a checklist of any kind from any professional association? You used no professional help of any kind. You were paying in the neighborhood of 40k or more but used the same "due diligence" you might for a lawnmower. If you wanted your kid to go to college don't you think you should have checked to see if the credits would be acceptable. Don't you think it should have been a red flag when a contract talks about electronic and chemical restraints? I will never understand how you could place your son out of the protection of US laws in a foreign lockdown. Your actions amount to negligent child care in my opinion. Although I think that their is rarely any child that thrives hundreds of miles away from his natural support systems (not talking about traditional boarding schools) I can understand, without supporting that decision, a decision making proccess that led to placement in a less austere facility, assuming resonable due diligence and care. But placing a kid in a WWASP facility is utterly beyond my comprehension. No free pass, but good marks for recognizing your mistake, and attempting to make it a little better, by exposing the WWASP scam."
First, I am not looking for a free pass. I was trying to let others know that WWASPS has different rules for different parents. Different marketing tactics for different situations. When Dundee Ranch was opened in Costa Rica, it was marketed to us as a brand new boarding school. My husband and I did alot of homework. Our son was not at a point for professional help. He was a normal teenager with normal problems. We were giving him an opportunity to better himself, get out of a rut and what better way to experience life at that age, than to go to a fresh new environment, a wonderful country like this, with all the exciting things that WWASPS promised. He was an adventuous kid and we felt we were doing a great thing for him.
The "school" was very rough when he arrived. We thought it would be good for him to help build this school to the greatness that we were all promised. We did not realize that he would actually be doing the manual labor, for free, in very dangerous situations. We even visited him, walking around freely among the kids. Looking back on it we remember that there was always a staff member close by. When we questioned the owner about certain conditions and demanded a conference, we were duped again, recieving the drawings and blue prints of what they were in the process of building.
And yes, we spoke with him weekly. They let us, because we were involved with this school, like anyone should be when their child is away from home. WWASPS bends rules when they have pressure put on them. We were lied to on many occations by their staff. Fortunetly our son was intelligent enough to assess what was happening there, how they manipulated the parents, and went along with the ride and waited for us to realize what was up.
This was almost 4 years ago. There was nothing out on the web that explained what was happening in these facilities. As thorough as we thought we were, we were duped. Our son holds nothing against us and also learned lessons, mainly how people like this get away with what they do and the parents that you thought were much smarter than you can be tricked.
What amazes me, is how a parent today that has a teen in a facility and has been exposed to, for example, seeing a picture of a child in a dog cage at High Impact doesn't rush to their child but instead still "trusts the program"!
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great justification for imprisoning your son! I'm touched...not! If he was anormal teenager with normal problems why did you try to solve them in a normal way?
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I don't think she is justifying anything, just sharing information.
Are you saying that all boarding schools are wrong for teenagers, especially ones that sound great. Is this not normal?
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Anon, there are many people listening and benefiting from your story and experience, thank you. Not all programs are the same, many parents have found places for their children which worked very well, in which they grew and flourished. Others were duped as you were. I think stories like yours go a long way in helping parents make better choices.
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I do not know what you are reading, butI did not see any reference to all boarding schools in my post...I am only refering to se behavior modification places that are run like a prison camp in Siberia. If a teenager is "normal" with "normal" problems why would you send him out of the country? Forget about being duped...this parent heard what she wanted to hear and now wants to dupe others into believing her good intentions. No, she WANTED to believe in the owners...a truly "normal" parent with a "normal" teen with "normal" problems would seek a more "normal" way of dealing with them and not ship them off to have a "fun" experience in an underdeveloped foreign country. That is just a load of crap to assauge her guilt.
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On 2006-04-28 12:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I do not know what you are reading, butI did not see any reference to all boarding schools in my post...I am only refering to se behavior modification places that are run like a prison camp in Siberia. If a teenager is "normal" with "normal" problems why would you send him out of the country? Forget about being duped...this parent heard what she wanted to hear and now wants to dupe others into believing her good intentions. No, she WANTED to believe in the owners...a truly "normal" parent with a "normal" teen with "normal" problems would seek a more "normal" way of dealing with them and not ship them off to have a "fun" experience in an underdeveloped foreign country. That is just a load of crap to assauge her guilt."
Exactly!
::bigsmilebounce:: ::birthday:: ::cheers::
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Anon,
Are you saying that parents are not allowed to give their teenagers growing experiences as this parent did. If you have the means, are you saying that you should not be able to send your child to say, Europe for a year. I don't think that all parents are shipping their kids off, but giving them alternatives such as boarding schools.
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Ever been to Costa Rica? A beautiful country with very loving people and a family oriented culture.
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I don't see anyone in this thread saying parents should not send their child to Europe for one year, can you quote that if it is, thanks. The pro-wwasps arguments in this thread are filled with logical fallacies, including the red herring I just referred to before. Who cares what parents do, as long as they don't send their kid to a psychologically and physically harmful environment. Parents continue to choose the most ineffective, abusive forms of 'treatment' and see it as some kind of viable alternative option when the rest of the world is saying no thanks. Really makes you wonder about these parents.
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On 2006-04-28 13:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I don't see anyone in this thread saying parents should not send their child to Europe for one year, can you quote that if it is, thanks. The pro-wwasps arguments in this thread are filled with logical fallacies, including the red herring I just referred to before. Who cares what parents do, as long as they don't send their kid to a psychologically and physically harmful environment. Parents continue to choose the most ineffective, abusive forms of 'treatment' and see it as some kind of viable alternative option when the rest of the world is saying no thanks. Really makes you wonder about these parents. "
Yep - but when you think about it, without troubled parents - there wouldn't be a need for an industry that caters to enabling them to blame their kids for being the "troubled" ones.
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[ This Message was edited by: Badpuppy on 2006-04-29 09:34 ]
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What about Sue Scheff. She still refers to wherever she can get $$$$$$$$$$$$. She doesn't give a damn about parents or kids. Just take a look ar hers.
If WWASP offered her $$$ tomorrow, she would refer to them AGAIN!!
SHE SHOULD BE SUED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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WWASP is bad, but that ain't that bad!!!!
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Badpuppy,
I recognize this parent from the post. You are making assumptions and drifted away from the original post. She is not justifying anything and certainly not saying she is perfect. Just sharing her experiences.
If you had a clue of what this parent and her son have done in the last few years to help others, try and change legislation, and expose these bastards, you would be working with her and not just picking apart her posts and assuming situations.
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On 2006-04-29 06:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Badpuppy,
I recognize this parent from the post. You are making assumptions and drifted away from the original post. She is not justifying anything and certainly not saying she is perfect. Just sharing her experiences.
If you had a clue of what this parent and her son have done in the last few years to help others, try and change legislation, and expose these bastards, you would be working with her and not just picking apart her posts and assuming situations. "
It's good parents and their children are working together to try and make a change in the PUBLIC arena. Is that what is going on? So far, I haven't really seen a coalition of parents go public - though I have heard of a lawsuit against WWASPS that involves several kids and their parents.
The parent writes: This was almost 4 years ago. There was nothing out on the web that explained what was happening in these facilities.
I disagree. Dateline and 48 Hours both did programs in early 2000, Time Mag. published an article in 1998 and Lou Kilzer's excellent and heavily promoted series on WWASPS was published ONLINE in 2000.
http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/sit ... sp11.shtml (http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/site-desperate/0702desp11.shtml)
Perhaps the parent was not Internet savvy - but I find that hard to believe - especially since that is the route most parents use when looking for a program or specialty boarding school.
The top watchdog groups we know today were still in their infancy.
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This information might have been on line - but it didn't come up in any internet search on the common terms searched. I know this for a fact as I did a lot of googling, and web crawling - and the ONLY sites that popped up at the time were sites promoting the program.
Being ignorant about how the web works (how a program can flood the net with web sites so as to ensure they are what covers the first several pages of any net search) I thought this was a sign they were the premium program advocated and recommended by all.
I understand web search engines have been working to make this kind of thing more difficult - and as a result - a web search now does indeed bring up some useful sites.
But then - this was not so.
I found all these useful and informative sites as a result of a TB grad posting a list of links on the BBS. I was just lucky to be on-line when they went up - as they were yanked within minutes. But I had done a quick copy/paste - and so I then began reading. I was shocked at what I was reading. I had long thought the program was dishonest and manipulating - and had recognized how cult like they were - but the abuse spoken of by so many kids was shocking to me.
It takes awhile to accept what your reading when you first find this stuff. This is why I often wish you guys would use a more velvet glove with the new parents who turn up. When you attack them they will turn away and much more easily accept the program crap and pabulum that we are all lying manipulators with an agenda. Or, just plain crazy.
You can point to the truth with out being so extremely hostile. When you tell someone with a PHD (or any other collection of letters behind their name) that they are morons and idiots - they have good reason to dismiss everything else you say - b/c they know they are not morons. And no one who has been brainwashed is able to accept they are brain washed. Go ahead and point out the possiblity, b/c it is the truth, but don't beat them up with. IT will just chase them away.
I understand the hostility so many of you have for the parents. Its why I have been willing to suffer my lumps and bruses and keep on. But as I have so often said - the key to helping the kids is reaching the parents - and you can not reach most of them by calling them disparaging names.
All this being said, I will also say, there will always be a large majority you have no hope of reaching. You can't spend time agonizing over them. You ought to concentrate on reaching the ones who can be reached, and not turing them away with unrelenting hostility.
*[ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2006-04-29 07:46 ]
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Thanks Buzzkill, I'm been trying to work out how to articulate that point for a day or two. We're only going to have any success against these people if we reach out to every ally we have and every wavering voice and bring them onboard with us. We've got to educate the public and make them understand and people don't want to listen to people who call them idiots.
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I don't think anyone is turning program parents away as much as they are trying to remind these parents that IT IS NOT ABOUT THEM and recouping their financial loss.
Second, Ever notice how the WWASPS parents always claim they didn't know about the controversy, no matter what year it was they sent their kid away?
That may have been true in 1996-1997, 10 years ago but those parents are NOT the ones posting on Fornits or the other anti-WWASPS forums.
I remember doing a search back in 2000 and Intrepid Net Reporter came up frequently. And once Desperate Measures was published, well it impossible to miss it on any of the search engines if you used key words like troubled teens, or the name of any of the WWASPS programs.
In the end, only a few parents (such as yourself) have dedicated themselves to broadening public awareness and for that, you deserve a huge thank you!
I wish more parents would stand up and take their lumps and then resolve to do something that actually helps. Donate to the watchdog groups, give interviews, help promote HR 1738. Civil lawsuits are fine but they happen behind closed doors. The public has no idea what's going on, it's a private affair.
Lastly, it must be remembered that WWASPS is not the only game in town. All this exclusive attention on them has helped to drive parents to other programs, with the SAME potential for abuse. In fact, some of the worst cases of abuse that we know about have happened at smaller programs, or wilderness programs where there have been deaths. The Ed Cons are profiting from the anti-wwasps movement too, don't forget.
There are parents who were genuinely duped, we all know that. But the WWASPS parents are the least credible when it comes to making that claim, primarily because this org. has generated the most publicity. It's a double-edge sword.
If parents really want to help, there are many ways to do so, short of posting on bulletin boards expressing their "outrage" at being mislead. That tired, sorry ole song and dance is what prompts people to tune them out, IMO. Who wants to hear a bunch of parents whining about their lost investment when everybody knows that's nothing compared to what they put their children through?
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You are absolutlely right. And I appologize to the forum and the Mom I was talking about. I eat the crow. This was not helpful.
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I found this site a year after I removed my daughter from Darrington just four weeks into it. We took her there because we were desperate and found a totally different site called teen solutions. The "counselor" totally understood what we were going through and we checked the facility before leaving her there. It wasn't the Hyatt, but I didn't see anything that didn't throw any red flags up.
Now I look for a site that can help me find a way to help keep others from making this same mistake and instead I find a disorganized mess of finger pointing and insults.
Yes I'm stuck with a huge bill that I would love to not pay. Not because I can't, but because I don't want to fund this program with the knowledge that I have today.
Seems how this site is more about placing blame than putting these "schools" out of business, it's obvious I'm in the wrong place.
Good luck to all!!! Try not to drown in your own self-pitty.Keep close to Nature's heart... and break clear away, once in awhile, and climb a mountain or spend a week in the woods. Wash your spirit clean.
-- John Muir
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These schools are in business because idiots like yourselves do your homework -- if ever -- after placing a child. Here's a solution to these programs continuing to being funded -- parents, STOP FUNDING THEM!
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Before I called anyone an idiot, I think I would find out what the circumstances were for their actions. My daughter would be the first to tell you we did all we could and were extremely desperate. My wife had to sleep with her to keep her from sneaking someone in my house. She dismantled our security system among many other deceitful and manipulative things. Two days after she left, her friends killed one of their grandmothers and took her car. My daughter was a speeding train and I jumped on the tracks to save her. I could have let her experience the law or something like that. You're a whine ass that has no idea what they are talking about. We drove seven hours to take her to that place so don't think it was an easy way out.
She was still a disaster after we picked her up, but she finally saw the light. We are very close and always have been. I don't feel good about taking her there, but I'm far from being an idiot. The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.
-- Bertrand Russell
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::boohoo:: :wstupid: Idiot.
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Again, it's obvious you aren't one to solve anything, but simply a road block for those trying to make a difference.
The best thing you could do to help us close these places is stay off of any site designed to do it. You are an embarrassment to a worthy cause and that is probably why you remain anonymous.
If anyone has a productive statement, feel free to post it. I'll go this alone before I sift through the junk this person is writing. I stopped research on this to read "idiot" with emotocons. NICE Creationists make it sound like a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night.
--Isaac Asimov, Russian-born American author
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So long as there are parents as stupid as you out there, WWASPS will thrive.
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Parents should visit http://www.isaccorp.org (http://www.isaccorp.org)
It is full of useful information on all of the schools in question. You may also find people that are helpful and understanding.
I also ran a search and found two people that have open letters posted that you should find just by searching by school. They seem sincere, not like this message board.
Good luck to all of you, I have much to do and not the time for the games here. The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it. Only if every single citizen feels duty bound to do his share in this defense are constitutional rights secure.
-- Albert Einstein
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...aaaaaaand if anyone's dumb enough to believe that tall tale...
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Thanks for sharing your story. It gives other parent an opportunity to profit from your mistakes. These stories also give valuable intelligence on WWASP marketing tactics. Sun Tzu said in The Art of WAR. "Hold your friends close--but your enemies closer."