Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools (WWASPS) => Topic started by: wwasp dad on April 13, 2006, 05:46:00 PM
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hi folks,
just thought i would bring another side to all this information. my son has been at a WWASP school since 2/05, and he has been doing fantastic the last 6 months or so. before i get unloaded on, i'd like to give you a bit of background info. he was 16 1/2 years old when we sent him there. he had been a great young man up to the last 6 or 8 months before we sent him there, well i guess that's just me, he was just a typical teenager with all the problems and ups and downs that teens have. then he found the drug we call METH, and he went downhill very, very quickly. i won't go into the details because i'm sure you've all heard or read about this terrible shit. so we tried mental health pros, drug treatment, understanding and just went through all our options..all to no avail. then we heard of this program and decided to try it. it has been the best track we could have taken. was i totally sold on it right away?? hell no--but over the past year and 1/2 i can't argue with the results--does he love it there??--another hell no, who would..but he's happy with alot of the tools he's learned about and can use in everyday life--i'm still not a program moonie, but as i said before, i can't argue the results..oh, and by the way-his mouth or nose isn't in a pile of METH either---and the thing that scares him more then anything is the thought of that drug, and what would happen if he did it just once again...........
thanks for your time---wwasp dad
---------PS- - please reply with your opinion, i like to see the other side of things
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Please watch this....
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 9640426410 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4069094189640426410)
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On 2006-04-13 14:46:00, wwasp dad wrote:
"hi folks,
just thought i would bring another side to all this information. my son has been at a WWASP school since 2/05, and he has been doing fantastic the last 6 months or so. before i get unloaded on, i'd like to give you a bit of background info. he was 16 1/2 years old when we sent him there. he had been a great young man up to the last 6 or 8 months before we sent him there, well i guess that's just me, he was just a typical teenager with all the problems and ups and downs that teens have. then he found the drug we call METH, and he went downhill very, very quickly. i won't go into the details because i'm sure you've all heard or read about this terrible shit. so we tried mental health pros, drug treatment, understanding and just went through all our options..all to no avail. then we heard of this program and decided to try it. it has been the best track we could have taken. was i totally sold on it right away?? hell no--but over the past year and 1/2 i can't argue with the results--does he love it there??--another hell no, who would..but he's happy with alot of the tools he's learned about and can use in everyday life--i'm still not a program moonie, but as i said before, i can't argue the results..oh, and by the way-his mouth or nose isn't in a pile of METH either---and the thing that scares him more then anything is the thought of that drug, and what would happen if he did it just once again...........
thanks for your time---wwasp dad
---------PS- - please reply with your opinion, i like to see the other side of things"
Which gulag is he currently residing in? Okay, so you say he was doing fine until he was about to turn 16? Because he found the drug Meth. So, you tried drug rehab? Tried therapy? None of that worked? But WWASPS did? Okay so drug rehab is good at getting people off drugs, but it didn't deal with the emotional pain, and so you had him seeing a theripest? Did he like the person he was seeing, had this person dealt primarily with kids his age with drug problems?
I don't recommend any of those programs. I truely think they do more harm then good. He will say just about anything right now to get out of there, or to complete the program so he will look good in your eyes, and can come home.
It's amazing how some of us have never acted a day in our life, or maybe just flat out suck at lying, and we get put in that awful situation, and are able to act almost instantly. Because we know it could be a life or death situation. Or they make you really uncomfortable by making you hold these stress positions. Or they restrain you, which take it from me does not feel good! I won't even go into the mind games they play.
So right now you think WWASPS was a godsend? I will be intrested to see what happens when he gets out, and is faced with nightmarish thoughts of what he went through. Then when he can't make those thoughts go away, he will eventually start doing drugs again, because atleast being on Meth it was fun, and it caused him not to dwell on shit. Then when you are scratching your head going what the fuck happened, I thought he was cured? You'll understand what I am talking about. But, by that time that happens you've lost your son, there are no refunds, and basically you will feel like one big sucker like most parents do. So, then you will entertain the thought of getting a lawyer, maybe even go to meet with a couple? (BTW, I am sure they will have you bring along a copy of your enrollment agreement which basically is going to screw you, and not give you a leg to stand on). Then when they are sitting there listening to you, and probably judging you thinking your a total asshole for sending your child away, then and only then will they tell you that they cannot help you. Atleast they will if you are trying to get them to take the case on contingency. Hey, if you willing to shell out some money, they will be more then happy to take it, and tell you what you want to hear. Kinda like when WWASPS sold you on the program for your son, you bought it, and are still buying it. Whatever, if it was me, I would pull him immediatly.
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i'm just curious, were you in a wwasp school?? if not,where are you getting your info
thanks, wwasp dad
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Meth will still be available when he gets out, and his new 'tools' only work in a locked and isolated environment. Since he'll be at a disadvantage socially because of being in a controlled environment, drug use will likely continue and even likely get worse. WWASPS is not effective drug treatment, even they should of told you this.
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On 2006-04-13 16:48:00, wwasp dad wrote:
" i'm just curious, were you in a wwasp school?? if not,where are you getting your info
thanks, wwasp dad
"
What "school" is/was your kid in?
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and the thing that scares him more then anything is the thought of that drug, and what would happen if he did it just once again...........
That's because WWASPS specializes in attack therapy, trying to scare you into submission and from returning to old behaviors. They do not address the issues that cause drug use, or other problems, they think drug use in of itself is somehow curable. Your son will return into the exact same environment that caused him to choose to do meth in the first place, so why would anything change? If you use the home contract stuff when he comes home, it will be worse. Of course it scares him, because he knows he is not addressing the reasons why he was doing drugs. Meth isn't some contagious disease you get, you choose to use it.
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i can't argue the results..oh, and by the way-his mouth or nose isn't in a pile of METH either---
Yes, you succeeded in locking him up. He could not access drugs, sex, alcohol, ciggarettes, ditch school, or do any of the other things that teens get sent to these facilities for. But he is not doing this by choice, he has been coerced. So think about how effective all this will be when he gets out. WWASP camps are an illusion, a fake reality in which you can force teens to look and act good. What they aren't, is treatment. Spending 18 months locked up in an alternate reality can change anyone to appear 'better', especially if the whole idea is to coerce teens to progress through a level system, generic in every way. There is no individual attention at WWASP, every teen, no matter their issues, is treated the same. Like cattle, they wharehouse and try to pack 'em in to maximize profit, at the expense of the teens there. Sure, it will keep a teen safe so long as they are locked up there (unless they committ suicide, which has happened), the problem is, if they had serious issues to begin with, they will go unaddressed. Since your son has a serious drug issue it seems like, it won't dissappear when he gets home. You can't punish drug use out of teens, or coerce it... it only causes teens to learn to fake everything. They learn to live in the living play that is WWASP and do what is necessary to get through it. How does this help you once you get home though? It doesn't. The social interaction is so programmed and strange he will have a hard time making friends or reconnecting with his old ones when he comes home. He will be isolated, because of this experience. Maybe I'm wrong, but I was sent for a very similar reason and I am talking from experience... and many others that I know. If you want to go check out the myspace groups and read through some of the threads and you will see for yourself.
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I understand what caused you to send your child to the program. I don't blame my parents now for doing what they did, but deep down I do blame them for not listening to me or believing me when I tell them how damaging it was to me psycologically. There are some good messages hidden in the program's bullshit, and one of them is "let go." I know it may not be easy to accept that your child is lost to meth, but if he has been there long enough to be sober and think about the consequences of using meth, he's been there long enough. Trust me, he has already made his decision about whether or not he will continue to use, and no other progress will be made in the program, unless it's detrimental progress. If he hasn't decided for himself that he doesn't want to use anymore, he will when he gets home, most likely out of anger or to fix his feelings of hopelessness. My boyfriend used meth for over a year and he got out of that shit on his own, because he woke the fuck up to what he was doing. If that's what your son needs, he got it, and past that all you can do is support him in that decision, not hurt him by subjecting him to a long stay there. You're hurting him by keeping him there. I know that they use all these fucking testimonials and shit in the parent support news and elsewhere to strengthen your decision to keep him there, but half of them are written in the program, or fresh out of the program, or from kids who are so brainwashed they don't know which way is up. He may sound like he is okay and takes pride in the "tools" he's learned, that will change the minute he comes home, or shortly thereafter. I think I read somebody else saying that those tools are used in an isolated, unrealistic enviornment - and that is completely true. When I got home I was lost for a good first year, and those fucking "tools" did not help me deal with an abusive boyfriend, or get out of depression, or pay rent when I was kicked out by my overzealous parents. There are other options to help your son, better options. Pull him, and he probably will be much more willing to work on things with you. He knows that he was fucking up, he knows that things need to change. But right now his anger and sadness is probably stronger than his will to change, and that creates an extremely bad outlook on life for when he comes back and tries to succeed. I've talked enough, but I know that I would be much better off if my parents had believed me and given me a chance to get out of there. I am fucked up for life, and I wasn't even subjected to the worst of the abuse I know goes on at these places. They are fooling you, and every day that goes by you're putting money into the hands of people that treat him like dirt.
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to wwasp dad,
As a mother of a former wwasp student..I say to you. Your son is now a robot under the control of the WWASP system....and you are brainwashed by the Seminars. I removed my son as soon as I found out what was really going on. The children are not lieing and manipulating about everything as they tell you they are. When I picked up my son he did not stop eating for 2 days. I'm ashamed of myself for not getting the facts ...as we parent all act in desperation. The long term cure or harm is what you should be thinking about. The childrens spirts are broken and at that time the children start working the program. As any of us would if we are brainwashed.
If I could shut down every WWASP school in this country would. $3000.00 a month they cannot hire certified instructors or councilors. It is hard to find a school that will take any of the credits your child receives while he is there.
Sir you have found only a temporay fix. Your bigger problems will come later when the nightmares start. After your son wakes up from the state of a ROBOT
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On 2006-04-13 16:48:00, wwasp dad wrote:
" i'm just curious, were you in a wwasp school?? if not,where are you getting your info
thanks, wwasp dad
"
I was in Cross Creek Manor back in 1989, and I never in my wildess dreams thought they would have multiplied in such great numbers. I only found out back in July when my husband and I moved, and I had some extra time so I looked up Cross Creek Manor, and discovered this whole sick mess.
I basically have devoted in the last 8 months 2 hours a day toward researching them, and what they are doing. I also talk to a lot of former students, as well as parents. I know a lot about them, and I pass along a lot of information to news and government agencies. I am doing everything in my power to put a stop to this.
It's pretty unbelievable what they are getting away with. The more you research them, the more you will see what I am talking about. I want you to do your homework.
You also have not told us which program your son is at? In order for us to be able to help you, I want you to tell us that much. Not only that, but it will help with your credibility. All to often we get people on here pretending to be former students, and or parents that praise the program, but cannot give us dates as far when they attended or when their kids attended. Through a series of questions we are able to find out if you are real or not. We have really good BS detectors! We are more then willing to help, and want to, but honesty is very important.
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sorry to disillusion you dad but these guys are right on. Your son's nose isn't in a pile of meth because he's locked up but some day he is going to have to deal with the real world. What you have here is a temporary fix, like all drugs. These schools are not "theraputic" in any sense of the word. They are brutal, demeaning, demoralizing and abusive. They are run by ill-educated (if at all) people with piles of their own problems they put on the kids. I am a parent. My daughter's psychotic father had her kidnapped and shipped out to one. It took three weeks for me to get her out but the damage done was enormous. She was just 13, innocent, with a beautiful,feisty spirit. She suffered years of post traumatic stress and finally hanged herself.
It sounds like you really care about your son. I am sorry there is not better news about these places and I do wish you luck with helping your son.
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I agree with the above poster. The reason WWASP is such a lucrative business is that good people who love their children will do anything to see them happy and successful. But at some point you have to realize that this isn't the way to do it. I hope that everything works out for you, and that you look into yourself and make the right decision.
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"and the thing that scares him more then anything is the thought of that drug, and what would happen if he did it just once again........... "
This is what scares me most of all about your post. You're acting as if your son, living in terror, is good. What if he has a relapse once he gets out? He's of age at this point, and now firmly believes that if he "goes back to his old ways" he'll end up, deadinjailorinsane! What then? Allow him to kill himself, believing that now, his life will amount to nothing since he "went back," so he proceeds to place himself in danger, while seething with self-hatred, his mind encompassed with the idea that he?s a worthless piece of garbage, now?
Because that's what these places program your mind to, not just think, but know. So, what then? How about ten years of therapy and de-programming? Do you know what de-programming is?
That's the scariest part of all, I think. People just don't realize what these places are doing to these kids.
[Q] What happens when you murder a child's free will?
[A] You have a prisoner of thought, based on choices he was forced to make, rooted in
Fear and Humiliation.
There are other ways of raising a child besides breaking them, right? Like love and attention... time, patience, responsibility?
_________________
Teen Advocate
est (Landmark/Discovery) '83
Salesmanship Club '84-'86
Straight, Inc. '86-'88
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Got some questions for ya:
Do you know what WWASPS does, or how it does it?
We do, and we can tell you all youd ever want to know about it, too.
Do you know of any study showing that programs are effective at reducing redivism rates for anything?
We dont either. We do know plenty about bootcamps, but not programs, that show theres no change, and while one study does exist regarding a single program, "academy at swift river" it has no control group, and itself admits that theres no way to know if it was effective or not.
It also detailed how it basically abused children to make them do what the staff wanted them to do.
The only thing WWAPSS is doing is scaring, torturing and humiliating him into doing as told. As soon as hes out of there, and eventually he will be, he wont have someone forcing him to do as told, and hell do what he wants.
How likely do you think it is the first thing hes going to do is tell you and everything to do with the program, and everyONE to do with the program, to fuck off, and probably go crazy?
Do you even know about the seminars, and what they do? Do you know about the level system?
Im sure youre scared for your childs well being, otherwise you wouldnt have forfitted your child, contact with your child, and an assload of money, but youre buying smoke and mirrors - temporary piece of mind for *YOU* at the cost of his well being, and potentially his future. There is no proof these programs work, whatsoever, and if you draw an analogue to another behavior mod system, bootcamps, theyre shown to NOT work, by innumerable studies, and also to cause lots of problems for the people who are in them later on down the line.
Plus, if you care, they're abusing him. Hes living in a world of fear of punishment and is totally isolated from everything except that program, even you. If thats what you want, then fine, in this nation youre able to treat him as chattel property until he turns 18 - but this is solving nothing, and giving him more problems to deal with himself. And even if it does brainwash him, its going to wear off in a few years at most.
So, take your pick - spend thousands of dollars on a temporary fix for YOUR piece of mind at the cost of his own, or cut your losses, pull him out, and find some actual therapy for whatever problems he had before, PLUS what WWASPS did to him now.
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On 2006-04-13 19:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"sorry to disillusion you dad but these guys are right on. Your son's nose isn't in a pile of meth because he's locked up but some day he is going to have to deal with the real world. What you have here is a temporary fix, like all drugs. These schools are not "theraputic" in any sense of the word. They are brutal, demeaning, demoralizing and abusive. They are run by ill-educated (if at all) people with piles of their own problems they put on the kids. I am a parent. My daughter's psychotic father had her kidnapped and shipped out to one. It took three weeks for me to get her out but the damage done was enormous. She was just 13, innocent, with a beautiful,feisty spirit. She suffered years of post traumatic stress and finally hanged herself.
It sounds like you really care about your son. I am sorry there is not better news about these places and I do wish you luck with helping your son. "
Im terribly sorry she commited suicide. :sad:
Have you added her name to the list we have of program casualties? Each person willing to speak up counts.
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...was i totally sold on it right away?? hell no--but over the past year and 1/2 i can't argue with the results--does he love it there??--another hell no...
Machiavelli would be very proud of you, sir.
May I suggest that you watch a few WWASPS "reality shows"? Take a look at the videos that have come from WWASPS - kids beaten, pepper-sprayed, starved, locked in dog cages, raped, denied medical care, etc.
The corporation with which are are dealing is well-known and documented to be severely abusive and harmful. If you can read and understand this and you do not bring your boy home immediately you are making a grave mistake.
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first of all i would like to thank all the people who did reply to the post. alot of the info was very informative, and if nothing else gave me a different spin on things. the link to the video was something that i found very interesting. i new right from the beginning that first and formost that this was a business, especially considering the cost. to answer some of your questions, we have been to the seminars, which i have to admit were quite strange, although i did pick-up SOME useful tools in dealing w/ everyday life. my son is at midwest academy in iowa. as for never being able to communicate without staff around, we have had a couple of off ground visits where i'm sure i would have heard about the severe stuff you guys talk about. of course you all will say he is brainwashed, and or scared of what may happen if he did say something.. well to answer that ahead of time, you don't know my son. i pulled him aside on both of these visits, w/o his mother around and told him to lay it all on me..now he HATES being there but does admit it gave him a different view of choices and life in general..he also had alot to say about how the PROGRAM is so gay,etc. as for the staff, there are some he doesn't care for at all, and others he has a great deal of respect for. we saw one staff member outside the school (coincidental at a local retail store), and if you could of seen how they greeted each other, you would've seen that this wasn't an acting job.
today or tomorrow i'm meeting with an ex-student of this particlar facility, to get his spin on all of this..he has done very well since leaving the place(about 1 year ago). again the reason for this meeting is for more info from all the sources that are available to me.
i will post how that went in the next day or two and hopefully get more input from you folks.
thanks again for your time and input--it's greatly appreciated- - -wwasp dad
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I think what you are doing is good. Try meeting with a "student" that has been out of the program for more than 10 years. You will hear honesty, not program mumbo jumbo. Took me almost 18 years to realize my program was crap.
Good luck.
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On 2006-04-14 06:30:00, wwasp dad wrote:
to answer some of your questions, we have been to the seminars, which i have to admit were quite strange, although i did pick-up SOME useful tools in dealing w/ everyday life.
Glad you're at least willing to take a look at these issues. How much have you really looked into the seminars? Here's an interesting link. http://www.insidersview.info/canitrustthem.htm (http://www.insidersview.info/canitrustthem.htm)
I'd like to hear your thoughts.
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More interesting reading.
Midwest Academy
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i pulled him aside on both of these visits, w/o his mother around and told him to lay it all on me..now he HATES being there but does admit it gave him a different view of choices and life in general..he also had alot to say about how the PROGRAM is so gay,etc. as for the staff, there are some he doesn't care for at all, and others he has a great deal of respect for.
My father asked me similar questions, he knew something didn't smell right about the program, and asked me for 'the truth' when I got home. I was so scared about being locked up again I told him what I knew he wanted to hear. The only thing these camps teach you is to be a world-class faker at all things. Eventually, the act becomes second nature. It doesn't disentegrate until you are out of the program, whether it be a week or two years later. But it always happens. I am glad you are open to at least hear the people out here.
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On 2006-04-14 09:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
My father asked me similar questions, he knew something didn't smell right about the program, and asked me for 'the truth' when I got home. I was so scared about being locked up again I told him what I knew he wanted to hear. The only thing these camps teach you is to be a world-class faker at all things. Eventually, the act becomes second nature. It doesn't disentegrate until you are out of the program, whether it be a week or two years later. But it always happens. I am glad you are open to at least hear the people out here."
Amen! :nworthy: Our program used to call it "internalizing your program". What it really meant was "sufficiently washed".
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I think what you mean when you say "my son is doing well" is "I am pleased with the service I have bought, my son is now compliant"
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On 2006-04-14 09:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"My father asked me similar questions, he knew something didn't smell right about the program, and asked me for 'the truth' when I got home. I was so scared about being locked up again I told him what I knew he wanted to hear. The only thing these camps teach you is to be a world-class faker at all things. Eventually, the act becomes second nature. It doesn't disentegrate until you are out of the program, whether it be a week or two years later. But it always happens. I am glad you are open to at least hear the people out here."
I totally agree. I remember telling my friends how it was so hard to seperate from the program and to forget it, because I had seriously formed a different life there, a completely different personality, a different scale of right and wrong...you're forced to assume this facade to survive, and you will do anything to get home. Any crack in that facade probably resulted in a drop, so it further cements into the real you. It overpowers your real self and slowly suffocates it. Even when you're free, the "program you" is still there, and it takes a long time to totally rid yourself of it.
My parents didn't find out how I really felt about the program until just recently, and I graduated in December of '04. For the first months I was home they had no idea how much I had hated it. Then I gradually started to denounce it, but I was still somewhat brainwashed. I would say "Oh, well the seminars were okay, they helped me" and "I learned a lot about myself" and "I made really good friends"...but in reality I was disillusioning myself, I was saying exactly what everyone else had said, what I was programmed to say...it's ironic (and sensible) that the most cultic part of the program is what I held onto for so long. Up until a few weeks ago I still belived that the seminars helped me...now I realize they just furthered my inability to let go of "program me". Everything is an act there, I even lied about things that happened to me in my past so I could stop being humiliated and dug into. I would grasp things out of the air, say I did more drugs than I really had, say I was raped, anything to get them off my back. Because if you don't have something juicy for them, they will grind away at you until you break. Everything is so fake...
The only question I have, is the student you're talking to still living with his/her parents, or under their "control"? Because that will definately change things. When I got home and other parents would ask me for advice, most of it was complete bullshit because I was too scared to say the truth, and the lies flowed out of my mouth like water. Soooo easy, I learned so well to fake emotions.
Also, keep in mind: I was not abused sexually or physically. I always had enough food to eat, I was never sent to the hobbit (or OP), I was on upper levels most of my stay, I liked a lot of my staff, I made tons of friends, and I was given a lot of privileges being 18/19. Yet I was still diagnosed with PTSD, I still have a hard time functioning in the real world.
I also commend you for looking at other viewpoints and being open to our advice. I wish my parents had at least done that.
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On 2006-04-13 17:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"and the thing that scares him more then anything is the thought of that drug, and what would happen if he did it just once again...........
That's because WWASPS specializes in attack therapy, trying to scare you into submission and from returning to old behaviors. They do not address the issues that cause drug use, or other problems, they think drug use in of itself is somehow curable. Your son will return into the exact same environment that caused him to choose to do meth in the first place, so why would anything change? If you use the home contract stuff when he comes home, it will be worse. Of course it scares him, because he knows he is not addressing the reasons why he was doing drugs. Meth isn't some contagious disease you get, you choose to use it."
Well, of course, your son has no reason to be scared of meth. So it's a choice--even when he's in the gutter, sobbing for enough to keep him whole another hour. But it's just a stage, right? Boys will be boys.
How many therapists are there at the school? Wonder what they talk about all those hours with the kids, since no one is addressing any real issues?
He'll return to the same environment---only if nothing changes at home. Hence the seminars.
Dad the fact is, you're right on. YOU know he needs help. You're intelligent enough to be searching, and continually learning. And it sounds as though you recognize that he can eventually choose to change or not, stay healthy or not.
I support good programs---including the WWASP programs I have experienced personally. Remember, they're independently owned, and not all of them look alike. There's a wide variety of kids and approaches; personally investigating this will bear out the truth of what I say.
The best thing you can do is what you're doing: be aware of the certain death of meth, keep informed, and participate in every step of his program--wherever or whatever it is. My best to you and your son.
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On 2006-04-14 16:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-13 17:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"and the thing that scares him more then anything is the thought of that drug, and what would happen if he did it just once again...........
That's because WWASPS specializes in attack therapy, trying to scare you into submission and from returning to old behaviors. They do not address the issues that cause drug use, or other problems, they think drug use in of itself is somehow curable. Your son will return into the exact same environment that caused him to choose to do meth in the first place, so why would anything change? If you use the home contract stuff when he comes home, it will be worse. Of course it scares him, because he knows he is not addressing the reasons why he was doing drugs. Meth isn't some contagious disease you get, you choose to use it."
Well, of course, your son has no reason to be scared of meth. So it's a choice--even when he's in the gutter, sobbing for enough to keep him whole another hour. But it's just a stage, right? Boys will be boys.
How many therapists are there at the school? Wonder what they talk about all those hours with the kids, since no one is addressing any real issues?
He'll return to the same environment---only if nothing changes at home. Hence the seminars.
Dad the fact is, you're right on. YOU know he needs help. You're intelligent enough to be searching, and continually learning. And it sounds as though you recognize that he can eventually choose to change or not, stay healthy or not.
I support good programs---including the WWASP programs I have experienced personally. Remember, they're independently owned, and not all of them look alike. There's a wide variety of kids and approaches; personally investigating this will bear out the truth of what I say.
The best thing you can do is what you're doing: be aware of the certain death of meth, keep informed, and participate in every step of his program--wherever or whatever it is. My best to you and your son.
"
This is the same bitch from the Carlbrook thread.
Looks more and more like an Ed Con doing some advertising.
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Yep, the Ed Con, supporting any program that charges money... sad.
Watch this movie and ask yourself if you trust these people with your child.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 0196191412 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4825219190196191412)
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Well, of course, your son has no reason to be scared of meth. So it's a choice--even when he's in the gutter, sobbing for enough to keep him whole another hour. But it's just a stage, right? Boys will be boys.
No, it's not a stage, it's a drug -- you know, those things that make you high to cover up the feelings you don't want to feel? When he gets out of his prison camp, he will have a lot more to cover up. Go read the post from a graduate who still has PTSD.
How many therapists are there at the school? Wonder what they talk about all those hours with the kids, since no one is addressing any real issues?
Tell us, how many therapists. How many times a week does he see the therapist. Does he receive family therapy, to improve the situation when he comes home? Is his therapy confidential, or do they share that info with his family rep? Program therapy is not therapy, I've lived through both and know the difference.
He'll return to the same environment---only if nothing changes at home. Hence the seminars.
Please tell me you didn't just say that. It's sad people like you are put in a position of authority over other people's children. Seminars... please.
Dad the fact is, you're right on. YOU know he needs help. You're intelligent enough to be searching, and continually learning. And it sounds as though you recognize that he can eventually choose to change or not, stay healthy or not.
Coercion. Remember that word, it's important. His son chose nothing, not when he pisses, when he eats or even looks out the window. His son doesn't even know what it feels like to be able to make a series of choices throughout the day anymore. When he gets out of the program and realizes all the 'tools' they taught him only work in the program, he will be in for a rude awakening.
I support good programs
Not sure what you're doing in a WWASP thread then.
including the WWASP programs I have experienced personally.
Which one did you send your kid to, and for how long?
Remember, they're independently owned, and not all of them look alike.
None of them look like what parents think they do. They have NO idea, but like I said, we put on a great show for you. Parents are paying for a circus, for all of us to put on the show they want to see.
There's a wide variety of kids and approaches; personally investigating this will bear out the truth of what I say.
No, the truth is you support an abusive program that turns out kids with more problems than they went in with. THIS is the truth.
The best thing you can do is what you're doing: be aware of the certain death of meth,
It's great he got proper drug treatment and addressed the issues that caused him to do it in the first place so he doesn't get back into meth when he gets home. Oh wait...
keep informed, and participate in every step of his program--wherever or whatever it is.
Unless he breaks the home contract, then you should send him back to the program. Or when he turns 18 give him his exit plan and kick him out on the street. This is what WWASP teaches parents to do.
Yes, what a great program -- WWASP destroys families for a pile of cash, very admirable group of people.
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pro-wwasp anon wrote
He'll return to the same environment---only if nothing changes at home. Hence the seminars.
wwasp dad wrote
we have been to the seminars, which i have to admit were quite strange, although i did pick-up SOME useful tools in dealing w/ everyday life
Pro-wwasp anon, you have WAY too much faith in the power of seminars. Did you even read what wwasp dad wrote? Teens with drug problems need real help, not seminars.
:roll:
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Maybe some "awareness" as to what these seminars actually are might help?
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/eldon.braun/awareness/ (http://perso.wanadoo.fr/eldon.braun/awareness/)
http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/sit ... rate.shtml (http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/site-desperate/mpg9-desperate.shtml)
http://www.rickross.com/groups/est.html (http://www.rickross.com/groups/est.html)
http://lizditz.typepad.com/i_speak_of_d ... day_a.html (http://lizditz.typepad.com/i_speak_of_dreams/2005/03/challenge_day_a.html)
David Gilcrease is an ex-est trainee/guru.
"
Teen Help [another name for WWASPs] was started by Robert Lichfield, 45, a southern Utah businessman who lives on an estate in the spectacular canyon country near St. George. He hired David Gilcrease to create a behavior modification program to all but guarantee parents would see a change in their teens....Gilcrease had been trainer from 1974-81 for LifeSpring, a company that perfected a form of encounter session called "large group awareness training." "
wwasp dad, You're being scammed at your kid's emotional, mental, physical, and spiritual expense.
Please open your eyes! :em:
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On 2006-04-14 06:30:00, wwasp dad wrote:
" first of all i would like to thank all the people who did reply to the post. alot of the info was very informative, and if nothing else gave me a different spin on things. the link to the video was something that i found very interesting. i new right from the beginning that first and formost that this was a business, especially considering the cost. to answer some of your questions, we have been to the seminars, which i have to admit were quite strange, although i did pick-up SOME useful tools in dealing w/ everyday life. my son is at midwest academy in iowa. as for never being able to communicate without staff around, we have had a couple of off ground visits where i'm sure i would have heard about the severe stuff you guys talk about. of course you all will say he is brainwashed, and or scared of what may happen if he did say something.. well to answer that ahead of time, you don't know my son. i pulled him aside on both of these visits, w/o his mother around and told him to lay it all on me..now he HATES being there but does admit it gave him a different view of choices and life in general..he also had alot to say about how the PROGRAM is so gay,etc. as for the staff, there are some he doesn't care for at all, and others he has a great deal of respect for. we saw one staff member outside the school (coincidental at a local retail store), and if you could of seen how they greeted each other, you would've seen that this wasn't an acting job.
today or tomorrow i'm meeting with an ex-student of this particlar facility, to get his spin on all of this..he has done very well since leaving the place(about 1 year ago). again the reason for this meeting is for more info from all the sources that are available to me.
i will post how that went in the next day or two and hopefully get more input from you folks.
thanks again for your time and input--it's greatly appreciated- - -wwasp dad"
You know, all you have to say is how much he hates it there (as if its a good thing) and there is no intrinsic good from putting someone in a situation they hate and making them suffer.
ToughLove? is bullshit, Im sad to say. Sad to say because Im sick of saying it so much :roll:
The seminars are BUNK. They dont teach a single useful thing except for MAYBE some common sense, and even then it cant justify regressional nonsense. Erhard's attempts at this shit were debunked half a century ago!!!
Let me repeat - This was debunked HALF A CENTURY AGO! Its just rehashed now becuase MOST people in this country, including you, dont have a clue it ever existed, and because in the short term (while youre still trapped in such a facility) it seems effective.
But then again, anyone can force children into compliance if theyre afraid enough of more humiliation or suffering. The problem is theres no thereapy for anything and when hes out of WWASPS the first thing hes going to do, and I will bet you dimes to donuts, is hes going to go get laid, and get high, unless hes actually been washed or is just too afraid to do so.
Would you do otherwise? For fucks sake, wwasps wont even let kids jack off. The internet and this forum especially is absolutely full of what they do - break them down, and make them be extremely obedient to earn even basic rights back, and are severely punished for breaking any rule or disobedience whatsoever, LITERALLY brainwash them, and tell you what you want to hear.
And it seems like now youre afraid of facing what you DONT want to hear, more or less. You cant jsutify locking someone up becuase "well he cant do drugs" or "he hates it there", and it seems like thats the crux of your reasoning.
You cant lock him up forever to keep him away from drugs, and if you could, that would be illegal once he turns 18 and very immoral. And because you cant, he has to learn how to deal with things without having a staff punish him for stepping out of line or brainwashed ala Gilcrease every 6 weeks .
WWASPS doesnt teach you how to live in the real world, thats up to you and actual therapists.
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Please see http://www.kathymoya.com/FICA/index.html (http://www.kathymoya.com/FICA/index.html)
I personally don't think it's worth risking my son's life in order to save his life. I don't want my son more ruined coming out of the program than he already was going in. With any luck your son will be one of the strong and lucky ones. I hope he survives.
:???:
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I'm completely with TSW on this one.
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On 2006-04-14 16:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Yep, the Ed Con, supporting any program that charges money... sad.
Watch this movie and ask yourself if you trust these people with your child.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 0196191412 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4825219190196191412) "
Yeah, she claims to be affiliated with Carlbrook, now she says WWASPS ("personally") and she always downplays the seminars as "safe and effective" but will not discuss a single detail of what goes on in them. It's the same lad.
She uses dashes---a few at a time--and when she wants emphasis, you'll KNOW it!
At least this poster can be completely ignored now. She's lied all over the Carlbrook thread and is now over here lying some more.
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"Instead of the pizza -- uh -- coming to you... we'll come and pick the pizza up -- and uhm -- take it... let it get cooked for a little while... in that type of sense. 'Till it's ready to come home and then -- uhm -- get a brand new hot and good pizza."
Randall Hinton
This is who you entrust you child to.
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Probably anything is better than a son being on meth, right? I mean,that would be enough to scare the bejesus out of me.
It still doesn't detract from the fact that everything the posters say is true about WWASPS, and as a former program attendee myself, I can vouch for the fact that the "tools" don't work in the real world. In fact, when I ask former programmees who drank the Kool Aid to list the specific tools they learned, they can't come up with ONE. (Because we weren't taught any!) And They just go on the attack.
In addition, we were not given any kind of insight into our individual issues because the program is not equipped to mete out any real, individuated therapy.
These programs are built to shame you into submission, but often miss the mark in terms of finding the roots of your problem. The shaming is not of the healthy variety either. It involves group humiliation, emotional badgering, and coersion into admitting thinigs that are often only half true or patently false. (You give into the confessions to survive the program or you are in for one hell of an emotional beating.) In addition, the programs do not build you up emotionally--they tear you down and only build you up as a program robot.
Everything that was good, bad, and neutral about your life prior to WWASPS is given negative denotations. There is no discernment.WWASPS is King.
Your son may leave WWASPs and never return to drugs... But I wouldn't be surprised if he experiences a HoneyMoon period followed by years of difficulty because his psyche was toyed with and manipulated to stark degree. There will be something amiss inside, but he won't be able to put his finger on it for a loooong time, because it takes awhile for the Kool Aid to wear off. Twenty years later, don't be surprised if you find him on this site. You probbably won't even know to the degree he is impacted because it's not something we share with parents. (I should give you a list because former students of several programs share the same issues and we have gone into them in detail.)
Before you think that everyone on Fornits is a loser anyway, I should tell that many posters are very successful and look quite good on paper, and yet have experienced enough negative outgrowths from the programs to post regularly because they know "civilians" won't understand.
In fact, one of the biggest impacts of these programs is to feel disconnected from humanity and people at large on a very profound level while still wearing a smile on your face.
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Please explain dad whether you apporve of a facility the uses solitary confinement as punishment?
Uses emotionally disturbed children to punish other emotionally distubed children?
Violates you childs constitutional rights to communicate without censorship to his parents.
and then claims to teach accountability.
Provides no classroom instruction?
Advertises a private prison as though it were a luxury resort?
Uses seminar techniques mental health practicioners consider to be on the same leval as past life regression therapy, alien abduction therapy, rebirthing, and other forms of absolute quackery?
Search for the International Action Survivors Committee.
Ask could all of the hundreds of kids with abuse stories be lying?
I have two graduate degrees, one in a mental health field from an Ivy League university. You have lawsuits against the WWASP alleging, fraud, child endangerment, false impisonment, and negligent child care. These allegations are consistant and true. Lawyers face grave penalties if they file suits without merrit. Take your child out now!!! He needs to be in a mental hospital as much for what was done to him in the WWASP facility as for his meth use. Please act immmediately.
[ This Message was edited by: Badpuppy on 2006-04-15 11:52 ]
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WWASP Dad,
I have been reading for a few days now the sound factual information these Fornit's folks have been providing for you.
I'm an exWWASP Mom. I attended all three seminars. I was at one time a programmed cult parent. I too thought my child was in good competent hands. He wasnt. He came home in worse condition than he went in. HE started doing drugs after he came home to deal with his anger and saddness the Program provided him with.He did drugs after he came home.Many of the wwasp kids I have spoken with have told me they did drugs after not before.
They are exposed to some disturbed kids in the Program. Normal or not they are all lumped together.
Here's a "challenge"; Next time you are on the BBS, write and question the quality of care and education the kids are receiving. Note the "feedback" from pro program parents. See if they are opened to discussing the possibilty that you parents have been MANIPULATED by the Program and NOT by your children.
Let me know the reactions . I'll be waiting.
BTW I no longer think WWASP is a good place for our children. I hate the lying pieces of shits.
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It almost always is, TSW. :lol:
The thing is, though, there are *TONS* of people lurking here who see what happens. We're doing it for their sake. The sad thing is the trolls do a very good job of approximating the stoopid parent or the programmie, so its all just as well. Facts and reason and proof vs... emotional bullshit.
Besides, when I yelled at "sue scheff" (the troll...) she did a sufficient job of imitating $ue, that it might as well have been me vs the greedy bitch herself - to anyone watching that is.
That said, I really do wish the bitch would show up and acutally try to defend herself toe to toe instead of ducking form us while PRETENDING to be a "watchdog group".
Fucking bitch.
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Please define "being trolled"
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(quote) Remember, they're independently owned, and not all of them look alike (/Quote)
I have documentary proof that links every program 0wner to lichfield by blood, marriage or church ties to with two degrees of separation.
Still wanna pretend they're independant?
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Dude, they have the same fucking contracts, use the same fucking seminars, and all of them send kids to Tranquility Bay if they dont get broken down by the program they were put in in the first place.
:roll: different my ass.
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I don't know about you guys, but every holiday that goes by, I think of the thousands of children that are imprisoned at WWASP.
I did go to church yesterday, along with all the rest of the C & E crowd, and I did take the time to say a prayer for them.
As for getting trolled, I am not sure? But, if WWASPS Dad makes it back, I want to know why he is here, and what exactly brought him here?
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It's funny, there was no one in the WWASPS forum all morning when I looked in Whos Online but then WwaspsDad signs in and there's about 6 people in there. Do they call or IM each other and coordinate?
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well i said i would post the outcome of a mtg i had yesterday with a midwest graduate, so here goes. the guy i talked to graduated midwest 3 to 4 months ago and is getting along pretty good. no, he is not a brainwashed program moonie or anything like that, i know most everyone here hates to see another point of view, (including personal attacks if i don't seem to quite agree w/ them). he is VERY glad to be done w/ the program and back out in the real world. we talked for about an hour as he had to get going for a family easter thing.. he for sure doesn't think it is the be all and end all for troubled teens, but he's glad he went through it, he thinks it saved his life---again does that mean he thinks it is the only possible answer for what he was going through(meth, heavy alcohol abuse, etc.)-HELL NO!!
he's doing college courses and working, and has adjusted well to the outside world.. he's 18 now and still sees old friends(some of them--not the tweakers-which he considers to be a dead end to life), by the way the school's credits transfered fine, which means the place is accredited. when i asked about his view on the seminars, his answer was about like mine, pretty wierd..but he did get some useful help out of them(by the way, his mom "choose out" when she went through focus--saying it was all to nuts for her) i did get some eye rolls when we went in to some specific's of the program--my point being he is NOT a program moonie. so overall he thought it was a good experience for HIM..
to answer a few of your questions in advance, this mtg. was not set up by the program, he is a friend of a friends son. when i showed him this forum i got alot more eye rolls, he did agree with some of the points, but the physical abuse,(the hobbit, the hole, the pepper spray, restained and on your belly, etc) DOES NOT happen there. he could not believe some of the posts on these type of topics--not to say they are lies--just that they don't happen there..
anyway, my quest for more opinions and info continues-------i'll put on my armour now, so the attacks can begin, after all, this is a different point of view from most on this sight.........
thanks for your time----wwasp dad
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wow...you obviously have ignored most of our posts. i'm not surprised, most parents choose to believe only what is convinient for them.
point blank, if you leave your son there, you're a selfish fucking bastard.
don't be surprised when he tells you that himself. one years, two years, wonder how long it will take for him to realize it?
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On 2006-04-17 07:51:00, wwasp dad wrote:
" well i said i would post the outcome of a mtg i had yesterday with a midwest graduate, so here goes. the guy i talked to graduated midwest 3 to 4 months ago and is getting along pretty good. no, he is not a brainwashed program moonie or anything like that, i know most everyone here hates to see another point of view, (including personal attacks if i don't seem to quite agree w/ them). he is VERY glad to be done w/ the program and back out in the real world. we talked for about an hour as he had to get going for a family easter thing.. he for sure doesn't think it is the be all and end all for troubled teens, but he's glad he went through it, he thinks it saved his life---again does that mean he thinks it is the only possible answer for what he was going through(meth, heavy alcohol abuse, etc.)-HELL NO!!
he's doing college courses and working, and has adjusted well to the outside world.. he's 18 now and still sees old friends(some of them--not the tweakers-which he considers to be a dead end to life), by the way the school's credits transfered fine, which means the place is accredited. when i asked about his view on the seminars, his answer was about like mine, pretty wierd..but he did get some useful help out of them(by the way, his mom "choose out" when she went through focus--saying it was all to nuts for her) i did get some eye rolls when we went in to some specific's of the program--my point being he is NOT a program moonie. so overall he thought it was a good experience for HIM..
to answer a few of your questions in advance, this mtg. was not set up by the program, he is a friend of a friends son. when i showed him this forum i got alot more eye rolls, he did agree with some of the points, but the physical abuse,(the hobbit, the hole, the pepper spray, restained and on your belly, etc) DOES NOT happen there. he could not believe some of the posts on these type of topics--not to say they are lies--just that they don't happen there..
anyway, my quest for more opinions and info continues-------i'll put on my armour now, so the attacks can begin, after all, this is a different point of view from most on this sight.........
thanks for your time----wwasp dad "
Dad, I'm glad you're at least open to talking to others but I think you're missing the main point here. When you do the research into how these seminars and programs work you'll find that the very fundamentals of them are screwed from the start. You can't change someone's behavior against their will without doing damage. THAT is the point I'm trying to get across to you. You can justify all you want with anecdotal stories from grads, parents etc but when you get right down to it their stories (and ours) are skewed by personal experience. The scientific studies are not.
Here are some interesting links. Hope you read through them:
http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/oct2004/od-15.htm (http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/oct2004/od-15.htm)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=6096906&dopt=Abstract)
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/lifton-criteria (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/lifton-criteria)
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/singer-conditions (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/singer-conditions)
http://www.ex-cult.org/bite.html (http://www.ex-cult.org/bite.html)
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/totalism-group-dynamics (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/totalism-group-dynamics)
http://www.nmha.org/children/justjuv/bootcamp.cfm (http://www.nmha.org/children/justjuv/bootcamp.cfm)
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On 2006-04-15 11:50:00, Badpuppy wrote:
"Please explain dad whether you apporve of a facility the uses solitary confinement as punishment?
Uses emotionally disturbed children to punish other emotionally distubed children?
Violates you childs constitutional rights to communicate without censorship to his parents.
and then claims to teach accountability.
Provides no classroom instruction?
Advertises a private prison as though it were a luxury resort?
Uses seminar techniques mental health practicioners consider to be on the same leval as past life regression therapy, alien abduction therapy, rebirthing, and other forms of absolute quackery?
Search for the International Action Survivors Committee.
Ask could all of the hundreds of kids with abuse stories be lying?
I have two graduate degrees, one in a mental health field from an Ivy League university. You have lawsuits against the WWASP alleging, fraud, child endangerment, false impisonment, and negligent child care. These allegations are consistant and true. Lawyers face grave penalties if they file suits without merrit. Take your child out now!!! He needs to be in a mental hospital as much for what was done to him in the WWASP facility as for his meth use. Please act immmediately.
[ This Message was edited by: Badpuppy on 2006-04-15 11:52 ]"
I can't help but wonder which of these is most ridiculous: the false statements about the programs (isolation, emotionally disturbed kids punishing other emotionally disturbed kids, censorship); the claim that lawyers face grave penalties for filing lawsuits without merit (remember the hot coffee at MacDonald's? Yeah, that lawyer keeps his grave penalties in his IRA account), or that Badpuppy has degrees?
:lol:
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I can't help but wonder which of these is most ridiculous: the false statements about the programs (isolation, emotionally disturbed kids punishing other emotionally disturbed kids, censorship); the claim that lawyers face grave penalties for filing lawsuits without merit (remember the hot coffee at MacDonald's? Yeah, that lawyer keeps his grave penalties in his IRA account), or that Badpuppy has degrees?
I will tell you what's ridiculous, this crazy program parent who trolls this forum called Karen is trolling this forum now because she's angry so much of her lies have been exposed. Isn't that ridiculous??!?! :lol: :lol: :lol: I thought you'd agree, here go read some more about it
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... forum=37&7 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=14957&forum=37&7)
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On 2006-04-17 07:58:00, emaree wrote:
"wow...you obviously have ignored most of our posts. i'm not surprised, most parents choose to believe only what is convinient for them.
point blank, if you leave your son there, you're a selfish fucking bastard.
don't be surprised when he tells you that himself. one years, two years, wonder how long it will take for him to realize it?"
Yes, Dad,
Clearly your search for truth anywhere but in the sterling annals of Fornits shows you're a bad guy. Just change your signature to BadDad.
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Yes, Dad,
Clearly your search for truth anywhere but in the sterling annals of Fornits shows you're a bad guy. Just change your signature to BadDad.
Awwww, Karen doesn't want to play in the Carlbrook thread anymore? :wstupid:
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On 2006-04-17 08:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
Yes, Dad,
Clearly your search for truth anywhere but in the sterling annals of Fornits shows you're a bad guy. Just change your signature to BadDad. "
Guess you missed this post.
Dad, I'm glad you're at least open to talking to others but I think you're missing the main point here. When you do the research into how these seminars and programs work you'll find that the very fundamentals of them are screwed from the start. You can't change someone's behavior against their will without doing damage. THAT is the point I'm trying to get across to you. You can justify all you want with anecdotal stories from grads, parents etc but when you get right down to it their stories (and ours) are skewed by personal experience. The scientific studies are not.
Here are some interesting links. Hope you read through them:
http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/oct2004/od-15.htm (http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/oct2004/od-15.htm)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=6096906&dopt=Abstract)
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/lifton-criteria (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/lifton-criteria)
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/singer-conditions (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/singer-conditions)
http://www.ex-cult.org/bite.html (http://www.ex-cult.org/bite.html)
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/totalism-group-dynamics (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/totalism-group-dynamics)
http://www.nmha.org/children/justjuv/bootcamp.cfm (http://www.nmha.org/children/justjuv/bootcamp.cfm)
Why do you people always jump on the easy targets? Emaree is mad (with good reason) and her response while relevant, is easy to point at and say "see? they're all angry, nutty, disgruntled kids". But you ignore the people who ARE trying to have sane, civil discussions. It's much easier for you to justify sticking your head in the sand that way I guess. Oh well, I'll keep trying.
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It's Karen, pissed off at being revealed for the liar she is. Notice she contributes nothing to the conversation, she doen't know anything about WWASPS probably. She comes to troll, to satisfy her damaged psyche.
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On 2006-04-17 08:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
I can't help but wonder which of these is most ridiculous: the false statements about the programs (isolation, emotionally disturbed kids punishing other emotionally disturbed kids, censorship);
You're shitting me, right? Are you seriously trying to say that the above does NOT go on in WWASPS facilities? Hell, it's Standard Operating Procedure.
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Dear WWASP Dad,
You say that the kid you spoke with is 18, and is taking college courses while working. Does he live at home with his parents? You say that he completed the program 3-4 months ago. It may take a while for him to relax, and get settled. Once he does, I am sure he will have some more thoughts on what he went through.
What area are you from? I don't need specific city or town. Which facility did this former student go to? Is it the same place your son is at? What brought you to fornits? I mean, who told you about it? How did you stumble upon it? Before I waste anymore of my time on you, I need you to be honest.
At this point in time, I have to say.....I smell a rat. Or I guess you might say, I smell a troll!!!! You guys over at WWASPS are getting much better with your stories. You start out being a concerned Dad, and wanting information.....then it's ending with you saying you've done some in depth investigation, and truely believing the program was a godsend, and that there is no truths to what we have told you.
This kind of crap is so typical of WWASPS. It's just another way of them trying to cover up what they are. Money grubbing whores.
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"False Statements?"
Wow... I'm giving up here. I like talking to rational people, not people who live in total denial of the TRUTH!
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first of all to answer a few of the questions, i am from the midwest area and i am not a wwasp troll, whatever that is (i'm not really very good with the internet speak type stuff), and yes the young man i talked to went to the same school as my son...i really have picked up alot of good info here, mainly from links to other stuff( govt. studies, papers by independant groups etc.) i am seriously thinking of pulling my son after alot of what i've read. i still believe there are 2 sides to every story, and i don't have to attack everything and everyone who disagrees w/ mine..again thanks to all who provided usefull info w/o the personal BS about how terrible i am and that i should rot in hell for possibly making a bad choice concerning a very troubled son.
again, thanks for your time(the majority of you)-----wwasp dad
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To WWASP dad- I am a WWASP graduate myself and would like to add one more opinion on this thread that the conditions being described do exist. My own parents similarly bought the sales pitch. It takes a lot to admit that you made a choice you want to take back. The program will try to talk you out of it and make you meet with a million people and stall you. They will probably also try to get your child to ask you if they can stay. Many of us wish that we had parents willing to believe the stories of others and save us.
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On 2006-04-17 10:58:00, wwasp dad wrote:
" first of all to answer a few of the questions, i am from the midwest area and i am not a wwasp troll, whatever that is (i'm not really very good with the internet speak type stuff), and yes the young man i talked to went to the same school as my son...i really have picked up alot of good info here, mainly from links to other stuff( govt. studies, papers by independant groups etc.) i am seriously thinking of pulling my son after alot of what i've read. i still believe there are 2 sides to every story, and i don't have to attack everything and everyone who disagrees w/ mine..again thanks to all who provided usefull info w/o the personal BS about how terrible i am and that i should rot in hell for possibly making a bad choice concerning a very troubled son.
again, thanks for your time(the majority of you)-----wwasp dad"
Please go back and re-read this entire thread. There is a lot of useful info here, including from the ones attacking you. I know it's not pleasant but understand where they're coming from. Most of us have been through those hell-holes and have a very clear understanding of what happens and how. Some of us went through places decades ago and are parents ourselves now so we understand the fear that parents go through in raising teens.
The more research and reading you do the more these places will give you the creeps. I'm not saying they're all money grubbing asses (although a LOT of clearly are) some actually believe they're doing what's best for kids. They're wrong, DEAD wrong.
I highly recommend picking up a copy of ?Help At Any Cost (http://http://www.helpatanycost.com/). I think you'll find it enlightening.
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On 2006-04-17 08:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-17 07:58:00, emaree wrote:
"wow...you obviously have ignored most of our posts. i'm not surprised, most parents choose to believe only what is convinient for them.
point blank, if you leave your son there, you're a selfish fucking bastard.
don't be surprised when he tells you that himself. one years, two years, wonder how long it will take for him to realize it?"
Yes, Dad,
Clearly your search for truth anywhere but in the sterling annals of Fornits shows you're a bad guy. Just change your signature to BadDad. "
you know what, go through what i went through and remain calm when someone does it to another innocent kid.
I'm sorry you're such a sarcastic and ignorant dick, it must be hard to keep up that persona all the time.
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This guy must be a program disinformation specialist. It is unlikely that any WWASP dad would post here for information, particularly after they have already sent their kid to a WWASP hellhole.
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The dad said that he is seriously considering pulling his kid. It has got to be horrible to realize the truth about what you're paying for and actually have the guts to do something about it. Yay dad, ignore the bashing.
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i am seriously thinking of pulling my son after alot of what i've read.
That's a start, hope you make the right decision. :smile:
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I'm praying for you and your son. ::dove::
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On 2006-04-17 18:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The dad said that he is seriously considering pulling his kid. It has got to be horrible to realize the truth about what you're paying for and actually have the guts to do something about it. Yay dad, ignore the bashing."
:tup:
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Try this one:
Come Back : A Mother and Daughter's Journey Through Hell and Back by Claire Fontaine and Mia Fontaine (Hardcover - April 1, 2006)
Buy new: $24.95 $15.72 Used & new from $13.99 Usually ships in 24 hours
(Amazon)
-
WWASPS DAD,
I have never been in a program like this. I have read a lot about it because of a friend being put in one for drugs. I believe places like these need to be put in place to help us parents with out of control kids. Unfortunately there isn't one that involves the parents enough and these programs will take any kid even if they don't fit the program they will keep them for years some kids have spent there entire preteen and teen years in a program. Can you imagine how horrible it must feel to spend those precious years locked away with people you hardly know that really don't love you. The feeling that your parents hate you and just don't want you around and the sad thing is some of them don't and these schools allow this to happen as long as they pay. IMO ages 13 thru 19 are so hard don't ever give up it will pay off in the end. Even if you would never be that type of father that is the type of kids your son is becoming close with is that the type of role model you wont for him. That alone makes me think these places are no good. Even if you don't believe all the abuse that the school tells you the kids make up to grab your attention. Think about the fact that kids spend years in these programs. IMO in any program if in 3 to 6 months if there is no change it isn't going to work. If the first drug treatment didn't work send him to another then another never give up. I have never seen were these schools were set up to handle drug addiction. Some of the things I have read and heard would make me do drugs. My friend doesn't talk to his parents any more very sad he is in worse shape now then when he went in. It does help some but I would have to believe 80% it does not. Good luck.
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On 2006-04-18 08:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Try this one:
Come Back : A Mother and Daughter's Journey Through Hell and Back by Claire Fontaine and Mia Fontaine (Hardcover - April 1, 2006)
Buy new: $24.95 $15.72 Used & new from $13.99 Usually ships in 24 hours
(Amazon)
"
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 6&forum=24 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=14536&forum=24)
Come Back : A Mother and Daughter's Journey Through Hell and Back
By Claire and Mia Fontaine
(To Be Released April 4, 2006)
From Publishers Weekly
A nightmarish saga of a teenage runaway in L.A. ends triumphantly thanks to love and support from her screenwriter mom and stepdad. At 15, Mia gets involved in a dangerous drug and Wicca scene, stunning her successful, controlling mother, Claire, and stepfather, Paul. But the signs were in place earlier, after Mia's history of being sexually abused by her biological father, a violent, vindictive drug user whom Claire left with difficulty. Sent to Indiana to live with Claire's sister, Mia starts using cocaine heavily and even gets arrested. When the destructive behavior (including self-mutilation) accelerates, Claire and Paul send Mia to the unlikely Morava Academy, in the Czech Republic, a kind of Spartan military institution where 50 teens are rigorously monitored and reprogrammed. Meanwhile, back in L.A., the parents undergo an intensive group therapy called Discovery to learn to shed guilt for their daughter's behavior, and also forgive her. Oddly, Morava is soon shut down after allegations of staff abuse, but Mia goes through a brilliant turnaround at Spring Creek Lodge in Montana. Mia's desperate diary entries appear between Claire's lively, angry, sarcastic narrative, allowing mother and daughter to maintain a heart-wrenching, honest dialogue. (Mar.)
Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.
Don't you just just love these reviews ... "Oddly .. Morava is soon shut down after allegations of staff abuse ..."
So what does the parent do? Send her kid to another WWASPS program called Spring Creek Lodge?
Sheesh, that just makes no sense ... but then again, this does appear to be the rule rather than the exception following the closure of other WWASPS programs alleged to be abusive like Dundee Ranch and Casa By The Sea.
This mom sends her kid out of the country to a place that is shut down for abuse and then turns around and sends her to another one where a kid has actually died.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... forum=44&9 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=13085&forum=44&9)
Lovely. :roll:
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Spring Creek's Short Leash
by John S. Adams, photos by Chad Harder
Above: With around 450 students, Spring Creek Lodge is the largest of Montana?s approximately 35 teen behavior modification and therapeutic programs. Students there are not allowed to fraternize with members of the opposite sex.
Below: Spring Creek director Chaffin Pullan, left, and program director Mike Chisholm, seated, say that ?intervention? rooms like this one are used to ?cool down? disruptive students. Former students say they are used as solitary confinement.
Montana?s behavior modification programs watch their troubled teen charges like hawks. Recent lawsuits and allegations of abuse raise the question: Who?s watching them?
By the summer of 2004 Janet Larson was at her wit?s end. Her 17-year-old daughter Christina (both names have been changed) was drinking, smoking, sneaking out, doing drugs and lying. Her parents were worried sick she would drop out of school, end up in jail, or worse.
So they made a difficult decision that summer, a decision they hoped would change their daughter?s life: They decided to send Christina to a private behavior modification program in Western Montana. Like thousands of parents around the country who send their children away in hopes of saving their lives, Christina?s parents were convinced they had no other choice.
Her experience at Spring Creek Lodge in Thompson Falls did change Christina?s life, but not in the way her parents expected. Less than two months after enrolling in the program, Christina was back home in southern California, dealing with what her mother calls the ?shock treatment? she received at Spring Creek, as well as the news that a bunk-mate and friend at the school had killed herself just days after Christina?s departure.
?cont'd here (http://http://missoulanews.com/News/News.asp?no=4970)
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Look, suddenly the Hobbit has gone from this
(http://http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y200/SpringCreekDropout/hobbit_with_kid.jpg)
to this (bottom pic)
(http://http://missoulanews.com/photos/16/0524feature1.jpg)
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Even with purple walls, it's still cruel and inhumane. I wonder why they even bothered to pretty it up like that? Must of been for reporters. SCL uses isolation as a punishment and coercion, not as a safe place for a teen to calm down for 30 mins like psych hospitals do. They keep you in there for 72 hours at least for a CAT 5, and some kids stay in there indefinitely, or until they are transfered to a more abusive program outside of America. ::noway::
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On 2006-04-18 10:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Even with purple walls, it's still cruel and inhumane. I wonder why they even bothered to pretty it up like that? Must of been for reporters. SCL uses isolation as a punishment and coercion, not as a safe place for a teen to calm down for 30 mins like psych hospitals do. They keep you in there for 72 hours at least for a CAT 5, and some kids stay in there indefinitely, or until they are transfered to a more abusive program outside of America. ::noway:: "
Exactly. You know those one room public restrooms? Next time you go in one, imagine spending a week in there with no escape.
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If they took a picture with someone less chunky, 4 feet wide would seem a little roomier.
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The dude on the left is Cameron Pullman and I am guessing the guy on the right is Mike Chism? I can't remember exactly but I am pretty sure that is it. Both these guys are crazy and cameron especially. He used to make us do all kinds of weird shit, or he'd drop us. He loves being in control of teens for his own pleasure and obviously is being fed well.
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On 2006-04-19 06:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
He loves being in control of teens for his own pleasure
Unfortunately this industry breeds and attracts that very type of person.
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On 2006-04-19 06:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-19 06:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
He loves being in control of teens for his own pleasure
Unfortunately this industry breeds and attracts that very type of person."
Yeah, you are totally right.
I remember this one time Cameron -- for no reason -- decided to bring all the boys out onto the basketball court. He told us all to strip down to our underwear otherwise we would be dropped a level. So there was a group of a few hundred boys standing out in boxers in the freezing cold for no reason. This was in the dead of winter, it was literally 10 degrees outside. He just liked to see how much control he had, it was really obvious. The guy seriously needs a reality check.
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On 2006-04-18 21:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If they took a picture with someone less chunky, 4 feet wide would seem a little roomier."
Hello? You're nuts. The brainwashed kind of nuts.
My bedroom closet is wider than four feet. Prison cells are wider than four feet. Even a tiny prison cell is six feet by six feet.
If I locked my kid in that closet for three days, the child welfare police would take my kid and put me in jail.
You wouldn't want to live alone in a closet that smelled like piss, alone, and with inadequate meals, for three days.
"That which is hateful to you, do not do it to another."
*Fwoosh!* You have been voted off the island.
Julie
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If there is a hell, there is a special place in it for people who lock kids in closets, and a place right next door for people who think it's okay.
Julie
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On 2006-04-18 10:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Even with purple walls, it's still cruel and inhumane. I wonder why they even bothered to pretty it up like that? Must of been for reporters. SCL uses isolation as a punishment and coercion, not as a safe place for a teen to calm down for 30 mins like psych hospitals do. They keep you in there for 72 hours at least for a CAT 5, and some kids stay in there indefinitely, or until they are transfered to a more abusive program outside of America. ::noway:: "
believe it or not, they also painted butterflies on the walls.
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On 2006-04-19 12:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-18 21:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If they took a picture with someone less chunky, 4 feet wide would seem a little roomier."
Hello? You're nuts. The brainwashed kind of nuts.
My bedroom closet is wider than four feet. Prison cells are wider than four feet. Even a tiny prison cell is six feet by six feet.
If I locked my kid in that closet for three days, the child welfare police would take my kid and put me in jail.
You wouldn't want to live alone in a closet that smelled like piss, alone, and with inadequate meals, for three days.
"That which is hateful to you, do not do it to another."
*Fwoosh!* You have been voted off the island.
Julie"
I was being sarcastic. I thought people could tell that I meant the room is obviously inadequately tiny, hardly a step up from the Hobbit, and Cameron is a fat ass. I didn't mean that room was acceptable at all.
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I got it. Cameron has gotten a lot fatter since I saw him about six years ago. :lol:
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I'm actually not sure if that is Cameron, it looks more like Chaffin.
And this is not the same hobbit with the bunks. There are three hobbits, the one pictured is for the girls. The one with wooden bunks still exists, it's just not used as often.
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The one with wooden bunks still exists, it's just not used as often.
Thanks for clarifying that, there's a wwaspie troll around here saying it doesn't exist anymore.
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On 2006-04-19 16:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
I was being sarcastic. I thought people could tell that I meant the room is obviously inadequately tiny, hardly a step up from the Hobbit, and Cameron is a fat ass. I didn't mean that room was acceptable at all. "
Sorry. Not knowing Cameron meant "fwoosh," I missed the joke.
Julie
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My friend got out a month ago and said that the hobbit was gone. I am only going by what he said.
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Surely you can tell that the photographer did a cut and paste on this one? In the original issue, you can even see the little dark line around the figures. the photo is a nice example of that newspaper's integrity. It's a rag, and pretty much a joke, even in Montana. Sort of like the Enquirer in Berkenstocks. :lol:
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On 2006-04-20 07:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"My friend got out a month ago and said that the hobbit was gone. I am only going by what he said."
Okay, first person knowledge over 'my friend said'. I'll believe emaree, duh!
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On 2006-04-20 08:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-20 07:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"My friend got out a month ago and said that the hobbit was gone. I am only going by what he said."
Okay, first person knowledge over 'my friend said'. I'll believe emaree, duh!"
Seriously guys, I want you to work on the quality and coherence of your lies.
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To be completely honest, I've been out for over a year. So, it's possible that they "got rid" of the hobbit, but I seriously doubt it.
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Even if the hobbit were gone, isn't the purple walled isolation cell still there? This is all WWASP knows how to do... 're-invent' the SAME SHIT with a fresh coat of paint. I can't believe parents fall for this crap!
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On 2006-04-20 13:24:00, emaree wrote:
"To be completely honest, I've been out for over a year. So, it's possible that they "got rid" of the hobbit, but I seriously doubt it. "
It's still there.
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thats fine, I will get over it. That is what he told me. When did emaree get out? Maybe he knows my friend who got out in march 2006. and was in the courage family.
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On 2006-04-21 04:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"thats fine, I will get over it. That is what he told me. When did emaree get out? Maybe he knows my friend who got out in march 2006. and was in the courage family."
you sure sound like you know what you are talking about for not even being there. :roll:
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On 2006-04-18 10:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Even with purple walls, it's still cruel and inhumane. I wonder why they even bothered to pretty it up like that? Must of been for reporters. SCL uses isolation as a punishment and coercion, not as a safe place for a teen to calm down for 30 mins like psych hospitals do. They keep you in there for 72 hours at least for a CAT 5, and some kids stay in there indefinitely, or until they are transfered to a more abusive program outside of America. ::noway:: "
I find it amazing how many different takes there are on if the Hobbit exists and if it does how long you're in there. I don't know if people post just for drama or what. I really think some of the post on here are just to cause excitement in those that have never been there and are ready to shut the place down.
I'm all for closing it down, but geez, let's stop the bullshit and at least get the facts right...
I WAS staff at SCL and as a matter of fact I was just out there not too long ago.
THE ROOM THAT KEEPS GETTING SHOWN AS STILL BEING THE HOBBIT DOES NOT EXIST ANYMORE.
I'm not saying it makes it right to have ANY kind of isolation room, I'm just pointing out that THAT room isn't there in that condition anymore.
Also, kids are NOT kept in isolation for 72 hours or more. A student is sent to Intervention for 30 minutes. They are given that time to get it together and decide if they want to rejoin the family or go back to worksheets. If they are able to do so then they can go back, if not, then they stay another 30 minuts. They are given the chance every 30 minutes to decide. It's not even real isolation anymore since there are 3 rooms in the boys side and 2 on the girls side, and no doors on the rooms. I've spent a lot of time up there and what a lot of people describe just isn't true.
I've posted my feelings on SCL before, so you all know I'm definitely not PRO the program. I just get tired of reading stuff that's not true. I'm probably going to get a lot of flack now for what I've said, but I had to finally point out the inconsistencies in the description of the facility. Oh, btw, that is Chaffin, not Cameron in the pic/
Do I agree with their program and policies? No!
-
what do they that you disagree with?
-
Irish Mom,
So they painted the room. It doesn't change the fact that it exist.
And maybe you didn't know of a kid being kept there for long stretches of time - but it did happen.
It is not in dispute that the France boy spent 9 months in that hell hole. It happened.
Just because you are personally unaware of such a situation does not mean it doesn't happen.
You are out of line to infer these kids are liars or insinuate they are drama addicted.
It may not be your truth - but it is theirs.
-
Excellent Post Exit Plan
-
Exit plan, no one is attacking you here and no one is questioning what happened to you. We all agree that WWASPS is wrong and needs to be shut down. The last thing we ought to be doing is fighting amongst ourselves.
Irish Mom never said she supports WWASPs and she doesn't need you to lay into her. Acknowledging the wrongness of what she has done is a big step and it's only with the support of people like her that we will close these places down for good.
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Exit plan, no one is defending WWASPS.
No one here is defending WWASPS.
Go back and re-ead her post, you don't need to defend yourself because no one is attacking you.
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Yes Irishmom, the kids are given a choice to leave every half an hour. But this choice is thrown out if they are violent, hurting themselves, making too much noise, swearing, disrespecting the flex staff, etc. That, therefore, constitutes a LACK of choice. Rather, it is manipulating the child to act a certain way to avoid the hobbit. That is not real choice.
Not to mention that many kids cannot control their behavior, especially in such stressful and extreme conditions. They are thrown in a room away from everyone else, fed cold food on paper plates, forced to use a portapotty, given no exercise or schooling, restrained constantly and embarrassed by it...who wouldn't react with anger?
Unfortunately, anger just gets you a longer sentence. I was never put in the hobbit, but I know many girls that spent days, weeks, or months there. Not continuously, but probably 2/3 of the day, back and forth between "worksheets", which is just a tamer version of it. You sit in a cubby and either listen to tapes or do schoolwork (that is not always allowed). It is still ridiculous.
I think the problem with WWASP employees is that they defend what they do based on the "rules" of the facility, they believe the bullshit doctrine in the same way the parents do, that "everything is a choice"...Most of them don't understand that they are carrying out a much bigger set of rules, those that determine the easiest way to coerce and brainwash children...
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On 2006-04-21 11:20:00, Exit Plan wrote:
"Okay I will spell it out.
I find it amazing how many different takes there are on if the Hobbit exists and if it does how long you're in there.
They kept kids int here indefinitely while I was there. Do you think they would have addmitted to this? Remember Mighty Aardvark -- they LIE.
I don't know if people post just for drama or what.
No, because I still wake up shaking from nightmares, that's why.
I really think some of the post on here are just to cause excitement in those that have never been there and are ready to shut the place down.
No, almost all of us that post information about SCL have been there. Obviously, some of the smaller details might be wrong because time passes. But this insinuates that we are posting lies and exxagerations in order to cause a frenzy that is unjust. That is not true. In fact, if the real truth was known, there would have been a frenzy a long time ago. WWASPS biggest fear is information, and truth exposing them for the scam they are. They don't care what they do, they just care what it appears they are doing to the general public. Then they label us who speak out as liars and crazies with vendettas.
I'm all for closing it down, but geez, let's stop the bullshit and at least get the facts right...
What bullshit? That the hobbit doesn't exist? Great. You guys built a new isolation cell. Do you really want to shut them down, have the abusers arrested and their profits taken away?
I WAS staff at SCL and as a matter of fact I was just out there not too long ago.
You want them shut down, but you visit? Doesn't make a lot of sense. I wouldn't be able to even go near the place without shaking in fear.
THE ROOM THAT KEEPS GETTING SHOWN AS STILL BEING THE HOBBIT DOES NOT EXIST ANYMORE.
It does in many of kids nightmares.
I'm not saying it makes it right to have ANY kind of isolation room, I'm just pointing out that THAT room isn't there in that condition anymore.
Of course it's not right. Parents aren't allowed to treat children the way SCL does, what gives SCL the right to do it? They are't a psychiatric hospital with trained staff.
Also, kids are NOT kept in isolation for 72 hours or more.
They sure were when I was there, and much longer too in fact. Months on end. The policy when I was there was 72 hours standard stay, and kids would stay for weeks and months. Just because something is not supposed to happen at SCL, doesn't mean that it won't. So long as ANY isolation at SCL exists -- nay -- so long as SCL itself exists, abuse will occur. The environment breeds it, too little staff, overcrowded kids, unqualified EVERYONE, no treatment, etc... I could go on and on.
A student is sent to Intervention for 30 minutes. They are given that time to get it together and decide if they want to rejoin the family or go back to worksheets.
And what if they can't calm down? What if they are having a serious nervous breakdown or another psychiatric problem? Are you saying the kids get to decide whether they go back to their family or worksheets? Why would a kid EVER choose worksheets? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. "Choose" is another program term for do what we say otherwise you are choosing your own punishment. Choose -- my ass.
If they are able to do so then they can go back, if not, then they stay another 30 minuts.
Ah, how convenient. So a kid who isn't able to get back into line with the program could theoritically stay up there forever then, right? Again, nothing has changed. Smoke and mirrors.
They are given the chance every 30 minutes to decide
Decide to live in a box or comply? How long could you stand that environment, you would do whatever is necessary to get out. C- O - E - R - C - I - O - N. That is not treatment, it's punishment.
It's not even real isolation anymore since there are 3 rooms in the boys side and 2 on the girls side, and no doors on the rooms.
Cosmetic differences, same psychological effect.
I've spent a lot of time up there and what a lot of people describe just isn't true.
So what qualifies you to have authority over other people's children to keep them locked up in a hole in the wall? Do you treat YOUR kids this way at home when they misbehave?
I've posted my feelings on SCL before, so you all know I'm definitely not PRO the program.
Good -- so you don't support child abusers. Most people don't.
I just get tired of reading stuff that's not true.
Me too. It comes mostly from the pro-program side.
I'm probably going to get a lot of flack now for what I've said, but I had to finally point out the inconsistencies in the description of the facility.
And I have to point at the exact same type of abuse that occured in the hobbit, worksheets, in the cabin while no one was watching -- can still happen. This is a small change, but the biggest of problems all still remain.
Oh, btw, that is Chaffin, not Cameron in the pic/
They are both look alike, easy to confuse.
Do I agree with their program and policies? No!
That's the most reaonable thing I've heard all day.
I was not defending myself Might Aardvard, or attacking anyone. Or maybe I was, I don't really care anymore. I am just saying my truth, my experience. I never wanted to be throwin into this shithole, and have every right to say my peace. If you really want to know, what really pissed me off was the statement that we post to 'create drama' or exaggerate. Fuck that, couldn't be further from the truth.A government resting on the minority is an aristocracy, not a Republic, and could not be safe with a numerical and physical force against it, without a standing army, an enslaved press and a disarmed populace.
James Madison, The Federalist No. 46
"
Exit Plan I never once doubted what you said about your experience while at SCL. In fact, I believe every word you've said. I was just pointing out that I've read posts by people that are recently out of SCL and what they describe is not what I saw while there.
I am so, so very sorry for what you suffered while there and for what you're still suffering. I am still trying to do something about this horrible place, but I keep hitting brick walls.
I respect you for the strength it must take to deal with this on a daily basis, but I've never once attacked you for what you've said. Maybe I'm not as creative in my wording as some who post here, but I agree with all you say about this place needing to be shut down.
I'm not making excuses for working there and I'm not making excuses for WWASP. I hate what they have done to people like you and what they continue to do. I am just trying to do what I can with what little resources and talents I have. It's people like you that will eventually have the voice that makes a difference and will hopefully someday make it right.
I apologize if you thought I didn't believe your description of what SCL was like when you were there, but I was just pointing out that I feel that there are people that post on here that have no idea of what it's like now and just go off what other people say. It's almost like they're riding on your coat tails and living through your experience when they hadn't even lived it.
My reasons for going back up there are personal and I don't wish to share them on this forum, because as you know it is very closely monitored by people that are still at SCL. That should say enough :smile:
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Exit plan, would you be willing to talk to me about your time at SCL?
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I agree with Exit Plan. I posted more to inform than argue. And there were staff while I was there, although few and far between, that truly cared. I have a feeling, and hope, that you're one of them.[ This Message was edited by: emaree on 2006-04-21 12:55 ]
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Even if they changed the policy regarding isolation the fact that they would ever use the Hobbit at any time testifies to the lack of conscience, poor judgement, and unprofessional conduct of the operators.
A further testament to their amoral conduct is their transfer of "half baked pizzas" (kids in their care) to Tranquility Bay where US laws have no juridiction. The fact that they would would reccommend transfer to TB is a "de facto" endorsement of the harshness of their disciplining methods. Methods so extreme they have no acceptance in the civilized world.
Speak to mental health professionals about a system where inmates in their care give consequences to other minors which result in loss of privileges and a lengthening of incarceration time.
These are the people that a child is entrusted to. Please read "Help AT Any Cost" Check the impartial research on residential treatment put out by The United States Surgeon General. Even if you don't believe a single story, evaluate the WWASP system with an independant mental health professional. I am praying for all of you and your families
[ This Message was edited by: Badpuppy on 2006-04-21 13:09 ]
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"half baked pizzas" (kids in their care)
Talking about all this stuff really puts me in a bad mood, but I seriously laughed at that. That quote by randall is unbelievable... what an idiot. ::noway:: :roll: I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard was not what I meant.
---Richard Nixon
[ This Message was edited by: Exit Plan on 2006-04-21 14:34 ]
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you know the same phrase that makes your spit laughing makes me want to cave his skull in.
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Yeah me too, but you know what I mean. It's all just so ridiculous you wonder how it's even possible.
A celibate clergy is an especially good idea because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism.
--Carl Sagan, American astronomer and author
[ This Message was edited by: Exit Plan on 2006-04-21 13:47 ]
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If kids COULD control their behavior enough to avoid the Hobbit's stringent exiting conditions, then why would those same kids (whom the program deems capable of behaving well enough to escape the Hobbit and/or whatever they're calling the purple room), be in need of one to three years in locked facilities?
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Perhaps Irish Mom could correct this but I understand that release from the hobbit is conditional on compliance with staff instructions. Am I wrong?
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That's true. The students need to be following the rules set in Intervention in order to leave after 30 minutes. For some this is an easy thing to accomplish, because they've had approx 30 min to take a breath and if possible calm down. Others had a way more difficult time due to various reasons both internal and external. I found that a lot depended on the staff that was working in Intervention. They could either make or break a students time in there. Same thing went for the Jr. Staff...some of those kids were just as bad as the staff in escalating another student into trouble.
My personal opinion was that the idea of a cooling off period was great. Everyone can use that once in a while, but the way it was done left much to be desired.
Please note that I'm not saying that the use of Intervention or Isolation, as some call it, at SCL is in anyway a good thing. I was just saying that the "idea" of getting to leave a bad situation, for whatever reason, and go somewhere supposedly quiet, had it's good points. I sometimes wish I could do that at home, but as those of you with children know, that's not always possible... :cry2: [ This Message was edited by: Irish Mom on 2006-04-22 09:12 ]
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Thanks very much for comfirming that.
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I understand that the correct therapeutic use of "timeout" as it is correctly referred to i the psychiatric community is to provide the distressed child with a place to withdraw from the distressing situation. It is additionally my understanding that the child must be free to leave the "timeout" room at any time. Coercive timeouts, properly known as "Isolation" are used to force a child into co-operating with authority figures.
Bottom line, if a child isn't free to leave it ain't therapeutic, it's punitive.
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So Irish Mom when you there how did they punish running away?
How did they punish fighting?
Was masturbation against the rules and how was it punished?
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Let's not get into another shouting match shall we!
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Who is shouting? I am simply interested to see if they have changed their policies. No anger intened.
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On 2006-04-22 09:37:00, Badpuppy wrote:
"So Irish Mom when you there how did they punish running away?
How did they punish fighting?
Was masturbation against the rules and how was it punished?"
They have recently come out with a new rule manual, so things have changed a bit since I was there. I can find out what they are now and I will post it.
Here goes with what my consequence card said:
Running: Is a Cat4 for just run plans either verbal or written. If a student ran then I think it falls under a Cat5:Serious Misconduct
Fighting: Could be anything from a 402(removal), 407(fighting), or a 504(Serious Misconduct/Assault). Bullying would be a 313
As for the masturbation, I think it could fall under a 211(violating rules unique to the facility), 308(BRV-blatant rule violation), or a 401E(inappropriate relationship). I, for one, never had to hand out that consequence...thank God....lol. That one usually fell to the Night Staff. Talk about an incredibly stupid consequence!
I'm not sure if any or all of these have changed recently, so don't quote me on them please. :smile:
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On 2006-04-22 10:35:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"A time out need not take place in a room away from everyone. The best method is to just have the kid sit off to the side abit until he collects his thoughts. When the kid asks for a time out they should agree to some sort of reasonable time frame, then discuss the problem with the group when the time is finished.
Why stuff them in a room?
Does this room have furniture?
Is is well lighted?
Does it have heat and air conditioning?
What if the kid needs to talk to someone?
Can he even talk to staff to discuss the problems that he or she is having?
The spirit of this country is totally adverse to a large military force.
--Thomas Jefferson
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There seems to be some confusion on what is considered a timeout and when a student is sent to intervention. I'm just going to tell you what I know, so please don't think I agree with any of it.
While I was there if a student needed a time out they were either able to go on a 10 minute walk with the Flex staff to talk or they could take it in worksheets/studyhall. They didn't automatically go to intervention for a "timeout". That was only if they were being disruptive and removed from the classroom, family, etc.. I tried to spend as much time as I possibly could talking to the girls in my care that needed to talk. If they didn't want to talk to me I would get them someone else to talk to. They were also allowed to put their heads down if they wanted to stay where they were.
In intervention it's a little different. They have to sit quietly, not talking. This was something I didn't agree with and I know a few staff that would talk to the kids anyway and listen to them vent. They do have chairs to sit in and from what I saw they were really nice and comfortable(not that it makes a difference when you're upset), but at least it isn't the bare floor.
Hope this answers some of your questions TSW.. :smile:
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On 2006-04-21 11:42:00, Exit Plan wrote:
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On 2006-04-21 11:01:00, MightyAardvark wrote:
"Exit plan, no one is defending WWASPS.
No one here is defending WWASPS.
Go back and re-ead her post, you don't need to defend yourself because no one is attacking you."
Your right, no one attacked me. But to suggest that SCL is changing for the better, is equivilent to putting lipstick on a pig. For any parent wandering this thread to think that SCL is somehow "improved" is a complete fallacy.
God, I wish I could just forget about it all. If we choose to violate the rights of the innocent in order to discover and act against the guilty, then we have transformed our country into a police state and abandoned one of the fundamental tenants of a free society. In order to win the war on drugs, we must not sacrifice the life of the Constitution in the battle.
--US District Judge H. Lee Sarokin
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"Lipstick on a pig..." I like that. Excellent metaphor.
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Thanks for answering my questions. Did any of these rule violations come with a set punishment in intervention? Former residents have complained that fighting runing away, and masturbation was an automatic 3 days in the hobbit, or what now is intervention.
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As for the masturbation, I think it could fall under a 211(violating rules unique to the facility), 308(BRV-blatant rule violation), or a 401E(inappropriate relationship). I, for one, never had to hand out that consequence...thank God....lol. That one usually fell to the Night Staff. Talk about an incredibly stupid consequence!
what was the consequence? did the night staff do something to them?
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On 2006-04-22 19:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
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As for the masturbation, I think it could fall under a 211(violating rules unique to the facility), 308(BRV-blatant rule violation), or a 401E(inappropriate relationship). I, for one, never had to hand out that consequence...thank God....lol. That one usually fell to the Night Staff. Talk about an incredibly stupid consequence!
what was the consequence? did the night staff do something to them?"
I was never told by my night staff that any of the girls in our family had done that, but then according to my girls several of our night staff had the habit of falling asleep all the time, so if they missed it I'm not suprised...lol. Night Staff just handed us the consequence slips the next morning and we recorded them or if they recieved worksheets we sent them to studyhall to work them off.
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On 2006-04-22 09:36:00, MightyAardvark wrote:
"I understand that the correct therapeutic use of "timeout" as it is correctly referred to i the psychiatric community is to provide the distressed child with a place to withdraw from the distressing situation. It is additionally my understanding that the child must be free to leave the "timeout" room at any time. Coercive timeouts, properly known as "Isolation" are used to force a child into co-operating with authority figures.
Bottom line, if a child isn't free to leave it ain't therapeutic, it's punitive.
"
Maybe you should leave the defining up to clinical professionals, MA. You're way off, according to medical and professional guidelines.
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On 2006-04-23 20:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
Maybe you should leave the defining up to clinical professionals, MA. You're way off, according to medical and professional guidelines. "
If you're going to make claims like that please cite your sources.
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On 2006-04-22 19:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
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As for the masturbation, I think it could fall under a 211(violating rules unique to the facility), 308(BRV-blatant rule violation), or a 401E(inappropriate relationship). I, for one, never had to hand out that consequence...thank God....lol. That one usually fell to the Night Staff. Talk about an incredibly stupid consequence!
what was the consequence? did the night staff do something to them?"
There is no consequence for masturbation, but there might be if you did it publicly or with someone else. Then it would maybe be a CAT 1 for rude behavior. At the same time, public masturbation would probably mean calling in a therapist--either the kids' regular therapist or the staff psychologist.
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At the same time, public masturbation would probably mean calling in a therapist--either the kids' regular therapist or the staff psychologist.
Don't the parents already pay for the kids to be receiving treatment? So they only get to see a therapist of psychologist if they are doing something really weird or what? Shouldn't all the kids have access to proper treatment, or only the ones who masturbate in public?
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Then it would maybe be a CAT 1 for rude behavior.
Maybe? It's written down in the rules as a CAT 5 offense, why the inconsistency?
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Maybe you should leave the defining up to clinical professionals, MA. You're way off, according to medical and professional guidelines.
Do you think clinical professionals would agree with the way kids are treated at SCL?
This is what the Association of Child and Adolescent Psychiatric Nursing has to say about these types of facilities:
The following Declaration was passed by the Board and membership of the Association of Child and Adolescent Psychiatric Nursing at their September 1998 annual meeting *****
A position regarding the detention of minor children in psychiatric treatment facilities, drug and alcohol treatment facilities, residential treatment facilities, and "behavior modification boarding schools."
All children have the right to be treated with dignity and free from mistreatment, abuse, neglect, and exploitation.
ACAPN opposes the abduction and involuntary transport of children to facilities for confinement unless such measures have been clinically justified in specific, operational terms by a licensed mental health professional with the legal authority to do so. In the event that such tactics are necessary for the immediate protection of the child and/or society, the child must have access to an appeal process commensurate with the same right of habeas corpus available to every citizen of the United States of America.
Children have the right to appropriate treatment in the least restrictive available setting in the event that treatment is necessary.
This setting must be one that provides the highest likelihood for improvement and that is not more restrictive of their physical liberty than is needed for their own protection or for the protection of society.
Prior to the child's admission a copy of their rights (written in clear and understandable language) should be given to them and explained to them verbally by a licensed staff member. A duplicate copy should be given to the child's family members(s) or guardian(s). If owing to the child's condition at the time of admission, the child has not understood his/her rights, a licensed staff member will provide an explanation to the child within 24 hours and periodically until some degree of understanding is reached. The necessity for repeating the rights communication process will be documented, signed, and dated. In the event that the child is very young, the rights should be explained to them in a way commensurate with their level of understanding.
Professional registered nurses, as directed by the A.N.A. code of ethics, are obliged to assure that the rights of children and families are in no way violated.
Prior to admission the child and his/her family or guardian(s) has the right to be informed of all institutional rules and regulations and consequence/reward structure concerning their conduct and course of treatment. These should be clearly stated in writing and a copy should be provided to all parties for reference purposes.
Treatment (including behavior modification procedures, therapies, educational activities) provided by any facility, including psychiatric hospitals, drug and alcohol treatment centers, residential treatment facilities, and "behavior modification boarding schools") must be professionally and clinically justifiable. This means that procedures to which children are subjected must be defensible as being within the realm of professional psychiatric standards of practice and affirmed by empirical research data as being appropriate.
ACAPN affirms the right of children to talk and write to persons outside the detainment facility at any time during their detainment without having such communication censored or monitored unless such monitoring is clinically justifiable (and justified) for the safety of the child or others. This right includes the right to contact an attorney.
ACAPN opposes any prohibition on barriers to communication imposed by any facility including rigid and restrictive visiting policies, policies that restrict parents from visiting their children, limited access to telephones, and barriers to mail service.
ACAPN opposes any and all punitive measures. Children should not be physically restrained (restriction of body parts by device or by placement in an isolated, locked room) unless every avenue of prevention of harm to themselves or others has been exhausted. The successive steps employed in the prevention of aggressive behavior must be clearly stated in specific operational terms. In the event that such restraint becomes necessary it should be done humanely and in accordance to standard aggressive behavior management (ABM) protocol by persons who have been trained and who have received instruction in ABM prior to their exposure to clinical situations. Children's face and head must never be obstructed at anytime. The restraint must be applied while the child is in a supine position. Any medication administered to the child must be ordered by (physician or advanced practice nurse) and administered by a licensed professional. Children should never be left alone while in restraints or while secluded. The duration of physical restraint of any kind should extend only until the child is sufficiently in control of him/herself to no longer pose a threat to themselves or to others.
Restraints must be "broken" every 2 hours at a minimum, the child should be offered fluids, toileting, and vital signs should be taken. Restraint orders must be re-written every 24 hours after the child is evaluated by a licensed professional with legal authority to do so. All restraint procedures must be justified in writing and in specific, individual, operational (as opposed to general) terms.
Children have the right to be cared for in a developmentally appropriate way by competent certified professionals who have had both the salient education and experience commensurate with working with a pediatric population. They have the right to therapies that are rendered by persons who have the appropriate education and training in those therapies. Treatment and therapies must be temporally and developmentally geared in such a way that they are meaningful to children.
Children have the right to have access to an advocacy group (such as Advocacy Inc.) as well as access to support groups such as the National Alliance for the Mentally Ill. Advocacy groups and their telephone numbers should displayed in a prominent place where all patients can see them. When advocates are called, they must have free access to patients/clients.
Children have the right to review the information in their medical record with supervision. The right extends to the child's family or guardian.
Children have the right to have their records kept private and to be told about the conditions under which information about them will be disclosed without their permission.
Children and their families have the right to a treatment plan that is individually developed for their situations as well as the treatment plan for care after they leave the facility. This treatment plan should be developed in collaboration with children and families and should be monitored for appropriateness and for patient progress with their participation on a specified, regular basis by a team of therapists.
Children and families have the right to be told about the care, procedures, and treatment that they are given in terms that they will understand.
Children and families have the right to be informed about the staff members who are their caregivers. This means information such as professional discipline, job title, and responsibilities. In addition, they have the right to know about any proposed change in the appointment of professional staff members who are responsible for their care.
Custodial parents may request that their voluntarily admitted child(ren) be released from any hospital or institution within 72 hours without any delay on the part of the facility. ACAPN opposes the use of any coercive tactics designed to compel parents to reverse their decisions to withdraw their child(ren) from treatment.
Custodial parents may request that their involuntarily admitted child(ren) be released from any hospital or institution within 72 hours without any delay on the part of the facility. ACAPN opposes the use of any coercive tactics designed to compel parents to reverse their decisions to withdraw their child(ren) from treatment. Children and families have the right to a copy of the institutional billing that is done directly to the third party payer. This billing must clearly specify in specific lay terms what service was rendered, when it was rendered, and what was charged for the service.
Now count how many items on that list are broken everyday by SCL. Every single one listed. Pathetic.
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On 2006-04-23 23:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Maybe you should leave the defining up to clinical professionals, MA. You're way off, according to medical and professional guidelines.
Do you think clinical professionals would agree with the way kids are treated at SCL?
This is what the Association of Child and Adolescent Psychiatric Nursing has to say about these types of facilities:
The following Declaration was passed by the Board and membership of the Association of Child and Adolescent Psychiatric Nursing at their September 1998 annual meeting *****
A position regarding the detention of minor children in psychiatric treatment facilities, drug and alcohol treatment facilities, residential treatment facilities, and "behavior modification boarding schools."
All children have the right to be treated with dignity and free from mistreatment, abuse, neglect, and exploitation.
ACAPN opposes the abduction and involuntary transport of children to facilities for confinement unless such measures have been clinically justified in specific, operational terms by a licensed mental health professional with the legal authority to do so. In the event that such tactics are necessary for the immediate protection of the child and/or society, the child must have access to an appeal process commensurate with the same right of habeas corpus available to every citizen of the United States of America.
Children have the right to appropriate treatment in the least restrictive available setting in the event that treatment is necessary.
This setting must be one that provides the highest likelihood for improvement and that is not more restrictive of their physical liberty than is needed for their own protection or for the protection of society.
Prior to the child's admission a copy of their rights (written in clear and understandable language) should be given to them and explained to them verbally by a licensed staff member. A duplicate copy should be given to the child's family members(s) or guardian(s). If owing to the child's condition at the time of admission, the child has not understood his/her rights, a licensed staff member will provide an explanation to the child within 24 hours and periodically until some degree of understanding is reached. The necessity for repeating the rights communication process will be documented, signed, and dated. In the event that the child is very young, the rights should be explained to them in a way commensurate with their level of understanding.
Professional registered nurses, as directed by the A.N.A. code of ethics, are obliged to assure that the rights of children and families are in no way violated.
Prior to admission the child and his/her family or guardian(s) has the right to be informed of all institutional rules and regulations and consequence/reward structure concerning their conduct and course of treatment. These should be clearly stated in writing and a copy should be provided to all parties for reference purposes.
Treatment (including behavior modification procedures, therapies, educational activities) provided by any facility, including psychiatric hospitals, drug and alcohol treatment centers, residential treatment facilities, and "behavior modification boarding schools") must be professionally and clinically justifiable. This means that procedures to which children are subjected must be defensible as being within the realm of professional psychiatric standards of practice and affirmed by empirical research data as being appropriate.
ACAPN affirms the right of children to talk and write to persons outside the detainment facility at any time during their detainment without having such communication censored or monitored unless such monitoring is clinically justifiable (and justified) for the safety of the child or others. This right includes the right to contact an attorney.
ACAPN opposes any prohibition on barriers to communication imposed by any facility including rigid and restrictive visiting policies, policies that restrict parents from visiting their children, limited access to telephones, and barriers to mail service.
ACAPN opposes any and all punitive measures. Children should not be physically restrained (restriction of body parts by device or by placement in an isolated, locked room) unless every avenue of prevention of harm to themselves or others has been exhausted. The successive steps employed in the prevention of aggressive behavior must be clearly stated in specific operational terms. In the event that such restraint becomes necessary it should be done humanely and in accordance to standard aggressive behavior management (ABM) protocol by persons who have been trained and who have received instruction in ABM prior to their exposure to clinical situations. Children's face and head must never be obstructed at anytime. The restraint must be applied while the child is in a supine position. Any medication administered to the child must be ordered by (physician or advanced practice nurse) and administered by a licensed professional. Children should never be left alone while in restraints or while secluded. The duration of physical restraint of any kind should extend only until the child is sufficiently in control of him/herself to no longer pose a threat to themselves or to others.
Restraints must be "broken" every 2 hours at a minimum, the child should be offered fluids, toileting, and vital signs should be taken. Restraint orders must be re-written every 24 hours after the child is evaluated by a licensed professional with legal authority to do so. All restraint procedures must be justified in writing and in specific, individual, operational (as opposed to general) terms.
Children have the right to be cared for in a developmentally appropriate way by competent certified professionals who have had both the salient education and experience commensurate with working with a pediatric population. They have the right to therapies that are rendered by persons who have the appropriate education and training in those therapies. Treatment and therapies must be temporally and developmentally geared in such a way that they are meaningful to children.
Children have the right to have access to an advocacy group (such as Advocacy Inc.) as well as access to support groups such as the National Alliance for the Mentally Ill. Advocacy groups and their telephone numbers should displayed in a prominent place where all patients can see them. When advocates are called, they must have free access to patients/clients.
Children have the right to review the information in their medical record with supervision. The right extends to the child's family or guardian.
Children have the right to have their records kept private and to be told about the conditions under which information about them will be disclosed without their permission.
Children and their families have the right to a treatment plan that is individually developed for their situations as well as the treatment plan for care after they leave the facility. This treatment plan should be developed in collaboration with children and families and should be monitored for appropriateness and for patient progress with their participation on a specified, regular basis by a team of therapists.
Children and families have the right to be told about the care, procedures, and treatment that they are given in terms that they will understand.
Children and families have the right to be informed about the staff members who are their caregivers. This means information such as professional discipline, job title, and responsibilities. In addition, they have the right to know about any proposed change in the appointment of professional staff members who are responsible for their care.
Custodial parents may request that their voluntarily admitted child(ren) be released from any hospital or institution within 72 hours without any delay on the part of the facility. ACAPN opposes the use of any coercive tactics designed to compel parents to reverse their decisions to withdraw their child(ren) from treatment.
Custodial parents may request that their involuntarily admitted child(ren) be released from any hospital or institution within 72 hours without any delay on the part of the facility. ACAPN opposes the use of any coercive tactics designed to compel parents to reverse their decisions to withdraw their child(ren) from treatment. Children and families have the right to a copy of the institutional billing that is done directly to the third party payer. This billing must clearly specify in specific lay terms what service was rendered, when it was rendered, and what was charged for the service.
Now count how many items on that list are broken everyday by SCL. Every single one listed. Pathetic."
"Professional registered nurses, as directed by the A.N.A. code of ethics, are obliged to assure that the rights of children and families are in no way violated."
Yeah, right.
"ACAPN affirms the right of children to talk and write to persons outside the detainment facility at any time during their detainment without having such communication censored or monitored unless such monitoring is clinically justifiable (and justified) for the safety of the child or others. This right includes the right to contact an attorney."
Already proven to not be happening at SCL.
"ACAPN opposes any prohibition on barriers to communication imposed by any facility including rigid and restrictive visiting policies, policies that restrict parents from visiting their children, limited access to telephones, and barriers to mail service."
And again....
"Children and families have the right to be informed about the staff members who are their caregivers. This means information such as professional discipline, job title, and responsibilities. In addition, they have the right to know about any proposed change in the appointment of professional staff members who are responsible for their care."
There is one Family Mom who has been with almost every family out there. They keep moving her around because she freaks out and starts bawling almost every other day saying she can't handle the family she's in. Family parents are changed all the time without any notice to the kids at all, and sometimes even the staff aren't aware that they're being moved out until it's done.
The supposed "Nurse" that they have out there is a total joke! She is by far the most incompetent person on the facility. She has initiated improper treatment many, many times, has missed things that even a trainee should have caught. I know for a fact that several staff witnessed her "injecting herself with an emergency bee sting kit instead of the student when she couldn't figure out how to use it.
This is the kind of "Professional" care they have for our kids out there!
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If there is no punishment for masterbation then the former staff member who posted here and thought it was a Cat 2 is wrong? How come there is a whole sexuality thread which affirms punishment for masturbation by WWASP facilities/ Is it your position that all of these people are lying? Are you a former inmate or staff? I ask the question because I want to know how you obtained your information to evaluate for veracity. If someone could write the consequences for violations of each category that would be helpful for those who have never experienced the delights of the lodge.[ This Message was edited by: Badpuppy on 2006-04-24 11:35 ]
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Why are we even talking about masturbating in programs?
Oh, wait, you have to remove any and all means for emotional release and comfort except for moving up in the program for a kid in said program... right.
BTW, funny how IVe heard lots of people developed at least circumstantial homosexuality while in these programs, and some were thrown in for being a little too gay/lesbian, huh. :rofl:
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This mom says her kid was punished:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=30#36679 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=4154&forum=9&start=30#36679)
In this thread where there is more on the topic.
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 54&forum=9 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=4154&forum=9)
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It wasn't on the consequence list, but I know several girls who were given anywhere from a cat 3 blatent rule violation to a cat 4 insubordination for masturbating.
It's inconsistent, like everything else.
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On 2006-04-23 23:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"At the same time, public masturbation would probably mean calling in a therapist--either the kids' regular therapist or the staff psychologist.
Don't the parents already pay for the kids to be receiving treatment? So they only get to see a therapist of psychologist if they are doing something really weird or what? Shouldn't all the kids have access to proper treatment, or only the ones who masturbate in public?"
Kids can see a therapist any time they want. That's in addition to regular visits.
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On 2006-04-24 14:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-23 23:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"At the same time, public masturbation would probably mean calling in a therapist--either the kids' regular therapist or the staff psychologist.
Don't the parents already pay for the kids to be receiving treatment? So they only get to see a therapist of psychologist if they are doing something really weird or what? Shouldn't all the kids have access to proper treatment, or only the ones who masturbate in public?"
Kids can see a therapist any time they want. That's in addition to regular visits. "
There is a difference between saying "kids can see a therapist" and actually offering them real help. In programs, therapists are program employees who allow the parents to tell the intake employees what the child's issues are, sometimes even before they meet the child. So if the child and parent have conflict, they have a "disrespect to parents" issue. The therapist determines when the child will "graduate the program", and we've determined through other posts that this doesn't mean anything or have any predetermined, specific qualifications. The therapists are WWASP whores who will do what they are told by administration. They do not advocate for the best interests of the patients in their care. Having access to additional therapy sessions is completely pointless and just serves as another way to plump up the monthly bills.
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not to mention the therapists break confidentiality to the family reps and parents, even on issues like rape and molestation, when the student's trust/faith in people will be shattered most. they should have whatever licenses they have stripped and pissed on.
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On 2006-04-24 16:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-24 14:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-23 23:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"At the same time, public masturbation would probably mean calling in a therapist--either the kids' regular therapist or the staff psychologist.
Don't the parents already pay for the kids to be receiving treatment? So they only get to see a therapist of psychologist if they are doing something really weird or what? Shouldn't all the kids have access to proper treatment, or only the ones who masturbate in public?"
Kids can see a therapist any time they want. That's in addition to regular visits. "
There is a difference between saying "kids can see a therapist" and actually offering them real help. In programs, therapists are program employees who allow the parents to tell the intake employees what the child's issues are, sometimes even before they meet the child. So if the child and parent have conflict, they have a "disrespect to parents" issue. The therapist determines when the child will "graduate the program", and we've determined through other posts that this doesn't mean anything or have any predetermined, specific qualifications. The therapists are WWASP whores who will do what they are told by administration. They do not advocate for the best interests of the patients in their care. Having access to additional therapy sessions is completely pointless and just serves as another way to plump up the monthly bills."
Anyone going to a mental health professional is accompanied by past records of treatment. And at most quality programs, issues are spoken of openly because it supports the principle that our issues don't own or define us. They're no longer threatening when they're out in the light of day.
This is an important issue, with special implications for victims of abuse or molestation. If you were raped as a child, confidentiality is your right, but being absolutely open about it demonstrates that A. you have no reason to feel shame about it and B. you are no longer threatened by it.
If you did something shameful, bringing it into the open in a healthy way allows you to A. identify the reasons you acted as you did and B. move past it and choose something different next time.
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Anyone going to a mental health professional is accompanied by past records of treatment. And at most quality programs, issues are spoken of openly because it supports the principle that our issues don't own or define us. They're no longer threatening when they're out in the light of day.
This is an important issue, with special implications for victims of abuse or molestation. If you were raped as a child, confidentiality is your right, but being absolutely open about it demonstrates that A. you have no reason to feel shame about it and B. you are no longer threatened by it.
If you did something shameful, bringing it into the open in a healthy way allows you to A. identify the reasons you acted as you did and B. move past it and choose something different next time. "
It is one thing to be able to share with people you care about, and another thing entirely to be embarrassed and forced to say things to people you don't want to share with. I saw my therapist call people out in group and say private things to the whole group, things shared in individual therapy that the person didn't want shared. That is just humiliation, violation of confidentiality, and abuse- the hallmarks of a WWASP program. Let's not pretend that anything real goes on during therapist/teen interactions. It's a game everyone must play to "graduate".
I know plenty of kids who didn't see a prior mental health professional before WWASP. People aren't required to try therapy first, because the low-wage intake coordinators don't really care if WWASP is a last resort or a first intervention, as long as the checks keep clearing.
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"This is an important issue, with special implications for victims of abuse or molestation. If you were raped as a child, confidentiality is your right, but being absolutely open about it demonstrates that A. you have no reason to feel shame about it and B. you are no longer threatened by it."
I was abused as a child and felt horrible about the way it was handled at WWASP. Sadly, the abuse I experienced at WWASP was worse then what happened to me as a kid. I could not trust my therapist because I knew they report everything home and would be the one to say when I could taste freedom again.
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During my second Discovery seminar, there was a girl who told everyone she had been molested as a child, by her uncle. One of the exercises during that seminar was for a group to 'confront' that girl, and simulate the rape all over again for her. They got all around her and started screaming things like 'its your fault you got raped', 'why did you let it happen', 'why did you want to be raped', and very mean and forceful statements like that. The girl started to lose her emotional composure and eventually became a sobbing mess. All part of the tear 'em down, build 'em up philosophy.
WWASPIES talking about therapy? Please. ::noway::
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Last post was mine, forgot to sign in.
. I could not trust my therapist because I knew they report everything home and would be the one to say when I could taste freedom again.
It was the exact same situation with me. It didn't take long to realize my 'therapist' (which my dad had to pay extra for and whom I saw once a week for 20 mins) told my family rep everything I told her. Confidentiality has NO meaning at SCL whatsoever. It's almost as if they live in an ethical vacuum at SCL.
Therapy is meaningless in an abusive, coercive, traumatizing, stressful, suicide-inducing environment that is SCL.
I don't think that a drug that creates euphoria in patients with terminal diseases is having an adverse effect.
--San Francisco oncologist & AIDS doctor, Donald Abrams, M.D.
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I was really upset when I was similarly "attacked" after revealing that I was abused. That's been done to several girls during seminars and they've all said they were terrified. They went along with it and didn't complain even though they were traumatized because of course you have to graduate the seminars to move up in levels and go home.
What kind of sicko is Gilcrease to say, oooh, wait, I'll play a rapist and attack the girls who've been raped and molested? They can try to fight me off in the dark while I shove and grope at them.
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Anyone going to a mental health professional is accompanied by past records of treatment. And at most quality programs, issues are spoken of openly because it supports the principle that our issues don't own or define us. They're no longerthreatening when they're out in the light of day.
This is an important issue, with special implications for victims of abuse or molestation. If you were raped as a child, confidentiality is your right, but being absolutely open about it demonstrates that A. you have no reason to feel shame about it and B. you are no longer threatened by it.
If you did something shameful, bringing it into the open in a healthy way allows you to A. identify the reasons you acted as you did and B. move past it and choose something different next time.
http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/4610.html (http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/4610.html)
http://www.apa.org/topics/rights/#confidentiality (http://www.apa.org/topics/rights/#confidentiality)
http://www.surgeryencyclopedia.com/Pa-S ... ality.html (http://www.surgeryencyclopedia.com/Pa-St/Patient-Confidentiality.html)
http://www.healthyminds.org/patientsbillofrights.cfm (http://www.healthyminds.org/patientsbillofrights.cfm)
http://www.dukehealth.org/Privacy/Patie ... dentiality (http://www.dukehealth.org/Privacy/PatientConfidentiality)
http://web.mit.edu/medical/student/mh/c ... ality.html (http://web.mit.edu/medical/student/mh/confidentiality.html)
http://www.teenliberty.org/ACAPN.htm (http://www.teenliberty.org/ACAPN.htm)
How can anyone claim SCL is a therapeutic and professional environment if they don't follow even the most basic ethical standards set forth by mental health and medical professionals?There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is
proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in
everlasting ignorance- that principle is contempt prior to investigation.
--Herbert Spencer
[ This Message was edited by: Exit Plan on 2006-04-24 18:02 ]
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REENACT A RAPE IN A GROUP SESSION? I mean, please say your shittin me. Thats not therapy, its macbre perversity. Do these people actually have a license? No, I'm not talking about the type of thing a five year old pulls out of a crackerjack box.
Mental health professionals consider this type of treatment to be crazy, along with alien abduction therapy, Facilitated Communication, and hundreds of other bizarre notions disguarded decades ago. It is heartbreaking that anyone would have to go through this degradation.
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are u lurking wwasp dad?
please tell us whats going on.....
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Not joking about the reenactment. Girls have said that Gilcrease has also shouted out things like, "You're a slut, fight him off, he's raping you again", etc. during the simulated attack, which feels incredibly real to real victims.
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In seminars we would take duct-taped towels (so they were like flexible clubs) and beat them on the ground. We were supposed to imagine destroying photographs of our parents, then all the people who have hurt us, then ourselves. In between the three sessions, they would play an emotional song and have you "rest." The session where you beat the images of yourself up is the longest. It is a very long process and the entire time, the staffers walk around and scream things like
"WHAT DID HE DO TO YOU?! HOW MANY TIMES DID THEY CALL YOU WORTHLESS!?! YOU WERE SO ASHAMED!!!"
At least two or three kids every training were treated for gashes on their knuckles from beating the towels on the ground so hard, or for asthma/anxiety attacks. They repeatedly have to clean the carpet in the seminar building because of blood spatter. This was at SCL anyway.
Then of course they would build you back up with that rebirthing shit, or as they called it, your "magical child."
seminars were fucked up.
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I didn't pass "accountability" three times. I was sent to a WWASPS facility because I was skipping school and they told my parents that this was a great boarding school where I could catch up at school and learn another culture and language.
Before seminars we would talk about what we were going to say at them. Many kids made up things so that they looked like they were buying into the program. I refused to make up a story. Everytime Gilcrease asked me why I was there I would answer him honestly and say that I was screwing up at school and smoking pot. Pretty normal for a 16 year old. They kept asking me "why are you really here? where you molested as a child, etc."
I refused to lie and it made my progress in the program stand still. I was on level 4 challenge for 4 months which is where you have all the duties of this level and no benefits.
My parents knew me well enough that when I told them this situation they questioned everyone and came and got me!
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On 2006-04-25 00:01:00, emaree wrote:
"In seminars we would take duct-taped towels (so they were like flexible clubs) and beat them on the ground. We were supposed to imagine destroying photographs of our parents, then all the people who have hurt us, then ourselves. In between the three sessions, they would play an emotional song and have you "rest." The session where you beat the images of yourself up is the longest. It is a very long process and the entire time, the staffers walk around and scream things like
"WHAT DID HE DO TO YOU?! HOW MANY TIMES DID THEY CALL YOU WORTHLESS!?! YOU WERE SO ASHAMED!!!"
At least two or three kids every training were treated for gashes on their knuckles from beating the towels on the ground so hard, or for asthma/anxiety attacks. They repeatedly have to clean the carpet in the seminar building because of blood spatter. This was at SCL anyway.
Then of course they would build you back up with that rebirthing shit, or as they called it, your "magical child."
seminars were fucked up."
Jesus... Will you re-post this on my myspace forum?
(In the thread about David Gilcrease)
_________________
Teen Advocate
est (Landmark/Lifespring/Discovery) '83
Salesmanship Club '84-'86
Straight, Inc. '86-'88[ This Message was edited by: 001010 on 2006-04-25 09:18 ]
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On 2006-04-24 14:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-23 23:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"At the same time, public masturbation would probably mean calling in a therapist--either the kids' regular therapist or the staff psychologist.
Don't the parents already pay for the kids to be receiving treatment? So they only get to see a therapist of psychologist if they are doing something really weird or what? Shouldn't all the kids have access to proper treatment, or only the ones who masturbate in public?"
Kids can see a therapist any time they want. That's in addition to regular visits. "
That was absolutly not true when I was at CCM from 2000-2001. You could only see your therapist on scheduled visits and they were not there after 6 or so on weekdays and not at all on the weekends.
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When I was there, I could tell the therapists watched the clock as they'd say, "We're out of time today", regardless of what we were in the middle of.
IF a therapist talked for any additional minutes, it was to threaten kids into behaving. They'd go into the isolation units and say things like, "Your parents know you're in here, they want us to keep you in here until you start behaving, and I'm not letting you come out until you........(insert request to submit will to WWASP here)". As people in the treatment industry, they are unethical sellouts.
I have heard that parents might be able to purchase additional therapy at some programs, but everything is viewed as a billable expense in WWASP programs. Their markup on basic toiletries turns airport gift shop owners red with envy.
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yeah they charged like 90 bucks a month for all our "store" shit. you got anywhere from 0-3 candy bars a week depending on your level, suave shampoo and conditioner, and toothbrush, floss, suave lotion, crap like that, stuff you hardly ever ran out of anyway. ridiculous.
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I think Dr. Huffine said it best when he described the "therapists" as being
"So far removed from any pretense of psychological validity as to have more in common with China circa 1974 than modern professional therapy"
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On 2006-05-14 03:34:00, MightyAardvark wrote:
"I think Dr. Huffine said it best when he described the "therapists" as being
"So far removed from any pretense of psychological validity as to have more in common with China circa 1974 than modern professional therapy"
"
Its a great quote. Do you remember the thread.
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It was in a private email conversation he and I were having. There's another good one from Dr. Jay Kuris on page 219 of "help at any cost" in which he describes the seminars used in KIDS (which WWASPS essentially copies) as being "so far from the standard of care that it goes beyond malpractice and into inhuman and physically torturous and oppressive behaviour"
Two very clever people really.
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It was in a private email conversation he and I were having. There's another good one from Dr. Jay Kuris on page 219 of "help at any cost" in which he describes the seminars used in KIDS (which WWASPS essentially copies) as being "so far from the standard of care that it goes beyond malpractice and into inhuman and physically torturous and oppressive behaviour"
Two very clever people really.
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It was in a private email conversation he and I were having. There's another good one from Dr. Jay Kuris on page 219 of "help at any cost" in which he describes the seminars used in KIDS (which WWASPS essentially copies) as being "so far from the standard of care that it goes beyond malpractice and into inhuman and physically torturous and oppressive behaviour"
Two very clever people really.