Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on April 06, 2006, 10:09:00 AM
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Does anyone have a problem with Isabelle Zehnder of CAICA obtaining ON-GOING legal complaints--that have not even gone to trial yet--- and posting them on CAICA; without protecting the names of minor children?
She's posting these legal complaints that reveal the full names of minor children, and their allegations (some graphic, some sexual)
This seems highly unfair to children, who had no choice about being in a program to begin with, and probably no choice about be a part of a lawsuit.
When asked to protect the identity of these kids by blacking out the names, or by taking down these complaints: since they have not even gone to trial yet...Isabelle Zehnder said she had talked to her lawyer and he said her practice of doing this is OK.
Whoa...now we have lawyers advising how to "help her help kids." Give me a break.
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Who was plastering CAICA's web address all over here about a month or so ago? It seemed that every thread I read had a post in there telling people if they wanted the "real" info to go to CAICA. What was all that about?
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All I saw on the CAICA site were suits with names that have already been made public. I could have missed them but I didn't see any names that I hadn't seen before somewhere else.
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Still haven't found any names that weren't made public before. Where are they? Did the parents give permission maybe to publish the names?
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Personally, I find it very inappropriate. She should be ashamed of herself.
She should Also be ashamed of herself for working with Susan to smear ISAC's reputation.
And also, for running up one wwasp survivors cell phone bill, to the tune of several hundred dollars - and then refusing to help him cover it.
And Then - for trying to suck up to ISAC, but refusing to apologize for the before mentioned smear tactics, and insisting she can't afford to help the kid pay his cell phone bill.
And also, for making appointments to met with reporters but not following through.
I personally think the woman has proven herself to be a major flake - absolutly not to be trusted with anything of importance.
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On 2006-04-06 08:16:00, BuzzKill wrote:
"Personally, I find it very inappropriate. She should be ashamed of herself.
She should Also be ashamed of herself for working with Susan to smear ISAC's reputation.
Huh? I've been away for a bit. What's happening?
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On 2006-04-06 08:16:00, BuzzKill wrote:
"Personally, I find it very inappropriate. She should be ashamed of herself.
She should Also be ashamed of herself for working with Susan to smear ISAC's reputation.
And also, for running up one wwasp survivors cell phone bill, to the tune of several hundred dollars - and then refusing to help him cover it.
And Then - for trying to suck up to ISAC, but refusing to apologize for the before mentioned smear tactics, and insisting she can't afford to help the kid pay his cell phone bill.
And also, for making appointments to met with reporters but not following through.
I personally think the woman has proven herself to be a major flake - absolutly not to be trusted with anything of importance.
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Yuck! I agree BK!
I am sorry, though, to see Cathy Sutton go down this road with this lady and her org. She really doesn't need to align herself with someone this controversial, IMO.
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Well I expect Cathy was simply doing a link share at Izzy's request. Izzy links to sites, and then writes them and suggest they link to caca in return.
At a glance it'd be hard to see reason not to - and unless you've dealt with Izzy, or know others who have, you wouldn't know about the mess she can make of things, or how self absorbed she is.
If she wants to be taken seriously she needs to do some soul searching. If she is involved for any self serving reason, she needs to find another issue. And, she must do some serious apologizing; as well as take some responsibility for her actions - and work towards being more responsible in future.
Personally, I don't think she is willing or able to do any of this.
Maybe she'll prove me wrong. More power to her.
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NO PARENTS gave IZZY permission to publish these legal documents revealing kid's names.
And I know ISAC did not give permission for IZZY to publish the Litchfield vs ISCA complaiint.
This woman has no morals and no good-sense working at all.
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Cathy Sutton needs to figure out the getting-used-by-people-who-have-an-agenda REALLY FAST!
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Isabelle Zehnder asked me for a copy of the civil complaint against the Whitmore Academy
I declined her request.
When I voiced my opinion about her posting children's names on her website site, she informed my her lawyer said what she is doing is just fine, and accused me of harrassment.
She's just like Sue Scheff: if a parent complains she calls out the lawyers!
She also informed me she is taking down our statement about Whitmore Academy.
Now how's that for fairness?
It's her website, she can do whatever she wants.
Who needs her?
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On 2006-04-06 09:07:00, BuzzKill wrote:
"Well I expect Cathy was simply doing a link share at Izzy's request. Izzy links to sites, and then writes them and suggest they link to caca in return.
At a glance it'd be hard to see reason not to - and unless you've dealt with Izzy, or know others who have, you wouldn't know about the mess she can make of things, or how self absorbed she is.
If she wants to be taken seriously she needs to do some soul searching. If she is involved for any self serving reason, she needs to find another issue. And, she must do some serious apologizing; as well as take some responsibility for her actions - and work towards being more responsible in future.
Personally, I don't think she is willing or able to do any of this.
Maybe she'll prove me wrong. More power to her."
No, Cathy has a webpage on CAICA called Buyer Beware (something about she's not a program referral service and doesn't recommend programs but will provide parents resources.
Cathy Sutton's name is also on the PRESS RELEASE
CAICA has on their website.
I'd say Cathy Sutton is aligned with CAICA based on those 2 factors alone, but don't know for sure, you'd have to ask her.
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Cathy Sutton has been around this business a long time. You'd think she'd know better.
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Can you provide links to complaints listing minor?s names at CAICA please. I can?t find them either.
How did she acquire their names? Parents? Public Records?
Has anyone whose request was denied taken legal action? Do you have grounds?
How did she ?barge in and make a mess of things?? With who?
No one has spelled this out. The issues aren't clear. Don?t expect other readers to understand when all the details aren?t provided. If you want to bitch about it without informing the public, then take it to private discussion.
What is her ?agenda??
Which kids on her list didn?t die at programs? I saw several that stated ?after leaving the program?. But, overall the list looks accurate.
So JH, why didn?t you provide the civil complaint with your child?s name blacked out? Is it a public record? Why did she remove your statement?
Why would she link to ISAC if she is attempting to smear their reputation?
How did she run up a survivor?s phone bill? How did she come to possess that person?s phone?
So, what?s the real beef here? Are you pissed that she made it easier for people to read public documents, by avoiding tedious searchs?
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There are 9 families in the civil suit.
I certainly don't speak for them, and I would not provide this complaint to anyone; much less to someone who wants to publish it on a public forum without deleting the names of all minor children.
That was my only request of Isabelle at CAICA, to protect the identity of minor children.
I understand that Isabelle at CAICA obtains these legal documents from PACER. I am not certain if she pays for these documents or not.
Isabelle gave me no reason for removing my statement about our experience at Whitmore Academy from her website. You'd have to ask her why she made this decision.
The statement is posted on ISAC if you want to read it.
http://www.caica.org (http://www.caica.org) The cases that reveal children's names is under the topic "litigation."
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I have no idea weather or not Cathy knows Izzy is using her work; but I have been nosing around on CaCa and I am betting she has used a lot of folk's words and work with out asking or caring how they feel about it.
///How did she acquire their names? Parents? Public Records? Has anyone whose request was denied taken legal action? Do you have grounds? ///
Ahhh - the subtle but important difference between illegal and unethical. There are many things one ought not do just because they can.
Now, keeping in mind I say she WAS, not IS, attempting to smear ISAC -
///Why would she link to ISAC if she is attempting to smear their reputation? ///
Oh I don't know. . .
Maybe because despite her best efforts, she failed?
Maybe she is just so thick she doesn't see the hypocrisy of it; or seeing it, is too thick to care?
Maybe, since she wasn't able to successfully tarnish ISAC's reputation, she now simply hopes to hi-jack some of their good reputation, just as she has hi-jacked ISAC's work?
Maybe, its simply b/c she is now pissed at Susan, and hopes it will irritate her?
But what ever the reason, I do a little doubt anyone with ISAC has OK'd any association with CaCa.
///How did she run up a survivor�s phone bill? How did she come to possess that person�s phone? ///
By talking on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on - by taking advantage of his good manors, good will, and un-ending patience, and talking on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on. . .
///Are you pissed that she made it easier for people to read public documents, by avoiding tedious searchs? ///
Thought you said you couldn't find any such thing on her site (Can you provide links to complaints listing minor�s names at CAICA please. I can�t find them ) So, it doesn't seem as if "tedious searchs" have been much avoided. But I think the complaint is that Izzy didn't take the time to cover or remove the names of minor's. I think that's been made pretty clear. That this is unethical and inexcusable is not even arguable.
///The issues aren't clear.///
If the issues aren't clear to you then that's your problem. They seem clear enough to me.
///If you want to bitch about it without informing the public, then take it to private discussion.///
You don't get to control the dialog here - but rest assured - plenty of private discussion takes place.
*[ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2006-04-06 13:09 ]
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Anon who doesn't understand the issue here.
Just google "Isabelle Zehnder and Majestic Ranch" and READ!!!
Read this article in the Salt Lake City Tribune by Kristen Stewart.
This will give you a little understanding of how this woman sticks her nose into things she knows nothing about, and screws up an investigation, and in the NAME OF "helping kids."
That should get you started.
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The "Susan" Buzzkill is referring to is Sue Scheff at PURE.
Sue Scheff got all mad when ISAC would not take down the Harris statement, because it criticizes Sue Scheff and PURE.
Seems sort of strange that NOW the Harris statement is a BIG ISSUE over at CAICA, now doesn't it?
Has Sue Scheff stomped her little high-heeled shoe and demanded that that Harris Statment be pulled from CAICA, too?????
Come on IZZY...show some guts.
Leave that Harris statement up.
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Why would IZZY post the Litchfield vs ISAC over on CA CA when it's not even posted on the ISAC site?
Have a pretty good idea.
Does IZZY and CA CA think ISAC might have a drop in donations if the complaint is made public?
ISAC has never hid the fact that the asshole Litchfield is suing them.
If IZZY is so interested in the legal field, she needs to go back to playing paralegal and leave child advocacy to those who know how to behave professiionally and who sincerely care about children's rights!
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Cathy Sutton hasn't posted her litigation documents on CAICA. Why not?
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Hey maybe since izzy is taking down joyce harris's statement, izzy and sue scheff can kiss and make up! ha ha ha ha ha
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Not trying to control the dialogue Buzz. Obviously there is private dialogue happening. But, NOW it?s been brought to a public forum, and if you want readers to take your allegations seriously, then SHOW us why we should.
So, should parents who have filed lawsuits on behalf of their minor children feel ?ashamed? because their kids name will appear in a public document that ANYONE can read? That shit is public information.
No parent gave her permission to post the docs? Did they give PACER permission???
You said: But I think the complaint is that Izzy didn't take the time to cover or remove the names of minor's.
What the fuck? You THINK? And who?s complaining, if not you?
Run up a phone bill. Poor victim couldn?t hang up? What was their agreement upfront? Why was she talking to him in the first place? Was he a minor? How old? Give some details for others to consider.
How did she ?screw up the investigation?? I?m not finding that.
What exactly were the ?smear tactics?? How did she work with Sue to smear ISAC?
How exactly does/did she work with Sue? Does she refer people to PURE?
Why didn?t she meet with reporters? Why does that bother you?
Serious apologizing? To who? You? Someone else? Does that someone else desire an apology?
I know ISAC and CAICA both read this forum. Where they fuck are they? Why aren?t they involved in this discussion, which seems to have everything to do with them and not a fucking thing to do with those of you with nothing better to do than rumor monger.
So far the case you and the anons have presented is pretty weak. Put together a good argument with links to support your allegations. I haven?t seen a good reason yet to stop referring people to the CAICA site where they will find a wealth of information.
Never got an answer about the list of deaths. Which ones does she have wrong?
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There is absolutely no need to scan documents and put them on her site with the children's names and the salicious, disgusting details of child abuse. No child advocate I know of would even dream of exploiting minor children in such a manner. Why not just post the case number, date suit was filed, where it was filed, and let people purchase the documents on PACER themselves?
It's really horrible to victimize children in the name of treatment or EDUCATION.
FOR SHAME!!!!!!
::bangin::
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If you look closely anon you will see that CAICA's "wealth of information" is lifted right off the pages of other websites like ISAC, TAUSA and others.
If CAICA did the professional thing, and just provided links to these other sites, that website would be basically BLANK!
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Dame Izzy - take a breath before you blow a gasget! And quite moaning about anons, as long as you are one.
///But, NOW it?s been brought to a public forum, and if you want readers to take your allegations seriously, then SHOW us why we should. ///
OK. But I was just stating my personal opinion and a little bit of why. I don't care if you take it seriously.
You ask Whose complaining? Everyone who learns how thoughtless and asinine you've been.
No one said the parents concerned felt ashamed - no one is griping that the *adults* names are posted - Are they?
The complaint is, you thoughtlessly and irresponsibly made a public display of the minor children's pain and suffering. There is no excuse for it. People should bitch. You should be ashamed. It goes a long way toward showing what kind of person you are that you would try and excuse this behavior and project the blame onto the children's parents. Geez lady - why not go to work for Teen Help?
Does it matter to you that the kids involved might feel ashamed? Not that they should - but simply out of recognition of the fact that child abuse victims often do feel ashamed - Don't you think they ought to be spared any further public embarrassment?
You think just b/c you have access to PACER you have the "right" to plaster these very personal documents up on the open net? Sure - its legal - but it is Not ethical.
And sure the young man whose bill you ran into the hundreds of dollars could have hung up on you. I betcha he wanted to. Like I said before: you took advantage of his good manors, good will, and un-ending patience. I don't recall what it was you were yammering on and on about - but I'll ask for a refresher and get back to ya, if you really want me to.
I don't recall why you backed out of the meeting with the Rollin Stone dude - but I seem to recall something about a head ach - or maybe it was cramps - What me to chase down the details and get back to you with them on this as well?
Why does it bother me? It doesn't bother me at all Izzy. I couldn't care less. Actually, I think the man was spared a grueling and pointless ordeal. I mention it simply as further evidence you are unreliable and "Dizzy".
How did you attempt to smear ISAC? By telling people to avoid ISAC; not to trust ISAC; not to talk to ISAC, not to support ISAC, and so on. The problem was, no one took your advice, and your snide little remarks got repeated.
And as for your coziness with Susan - I remember well Susan promoting you and CaCa; as well as that Tom Coleman - telling her little worker ants/bees (as she calls her "friends")to support CaCa and Coleman's unMarried in America, instead of ISAC.
I recall well, one of Susan's favorite mouth peices calling me on the phone, trying to get me to shut up, and get off fornits; going on to tell me I ought to get in touch with Izzabell - ISAC was a non issue - a distraction - but Izzabell was somebody I really ought to talk to.
I recall one of ISAC's supporters telling me how Susan was suggesting ISAC was taking advantage of her, and she ought to support Izzy and Coleman instead.
I remember thinking Susan was trying to hold you and CaCa up as worthy replacements for ISAC, which she intended to see destroyed, with Bobby's help.
Yeah - you two were thick as theives for awhile there. You were both trash talkin' ISAC, while promoting CaCa.
But then something happen and you found it wasn't such a cozy relationship after all. I'm not sure what - but something happened.
You put Whitmore on your little ISAC wannbe watch list. Maybe that was the something - or maybe that was the result of the something. But anyway - you had a fallin out.
Then you come whining back to ISAC - Oh lets be friends. Lets work together, and all that crap.
You ask: Does that someone else desire an apology?
You were told very plainly an apology, as well as compensation was required, and why.
/// I haven?t seen a good reason yet to stop referring people to the CAICA site where they will find a wealth of information. ///
You go right ahead and refer people to your web site. No one is suggesting you shouldn't.
You should however, conduct yourself with some measure of responsibility and decency. If you can't do that - if your to lazy or impatient or self absorbed to consider the common, reasonable courtesies, then you really ought to get lost.
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Hey IZZY you like to see your name in PRINT. Register and show yourself.
OR, go ahead and post under MOM CAT. Everyone knows that's YOU.
By the way: who did you get that poetry from?
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buzzkill if izzy's too cheap to pay this boy's phone bill, maybe we can all chip in an help out the lad.
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Luke powers up... and then discharges into the air. These people aren't ripe for that. Yet.
If I see any more backbiting gossipy hen crap from the members here, I'm going to beat your asses the old-fashioned way. Shut the fuck up, every single one of you. Save your fucking anger for the shitholes or I'll mow you down like grass.
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Parents have nothing to be ashamed of Dame Izzy.
They weren't abused in these facilities. Teenaagers do feel shame when gross indignities they suffered are discussing in an open forum. Yea, it will be discusssed in a court of law, UNLESS these abusive scumbags agree to cop a plea or settle. And you have no right to interfer with that process, and exploit these kids any further.
Do you have any kids of your own you could be "helping?" Go bother them and leave other people's kids alone.
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If someone worked in a law firm, and used the firms PACER system to retrieve documents without the firm's permission; and THEN used these documents on their own personal website, --would this be considered "employee theif?"
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On 2006-04-06 17:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If you look closely anon you will see that CAICA's "wealth of information" is lifted right off the pages of other websites like ISAC, TAUSA and others.
If CAICA did the professional thing, and just provided links to these other sites, that website would be basically BLANK!"
oh give it a god damn rest. what? if one site posts something, others shouldn't. you think everything posted here, or at ISAC or TAUSA is original? why doesn't TAUSA have ANYTHING at all on WWASP? you don't think ISAC and all the other sites didn't take things from here? i know they have. they've taken things i've posted and/or said. what the hell does it matter in the end? so fucking petty.
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///why doesn't TAUSA have ANYTHING at all on WWASP? ///
Do you really not know? Or are you being an extra large Ass?
Its fine to borrow information from other persons, and sites, if it is done with permission and proper credit is given.
Its something else entirely to use another's words and ideas and work and effort and present it as your own.
Not so petty an issue either. Its called plagiarism and it can devistate a person's credibility if they are found guilty of it.
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so, it appears the woman hasn't done anything to you personally, right Buzz? is that what you're saying?
well, where are all the people who feel so wronged by her? they are alive aren't they? why aren't they telling their stories? can't speak?
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Anon Speaker: I did speak, and I use my name.
I simply asked that Isabelle at CAICA not post minor children's names on her website when she publishes legal documents.
Isabelle informed me she would be removing our statement about Whitmore Academy from her website, and that is her choice, since it is her website.
You continue to argue with Buzzkill without identifying yourself. What is your interest in this topic?
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I also agree with Buzzkill about the issue of plagiarism. Students have been expelled from some of our finest universities for plagiarism. Journalist have been fired for engaging in plagiarism.
Using another person's words, pictures, lists, etc. from their website and inserting it in their own website without permission, and without giving credit to the source is just that--- plagiarism: this may or may not be wrong in any legal sense but it sure does STINK!
People should do their own work or at least say "thanks" to those they borrow from. That's just the nice, polite thing to do, don't you think?
And no one appreciates being cursed at either.
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Look Izzy - I am just explaining why *I* don't feel you can be trusted with anything of importance.
That's all.
Do you not think it wise to consider how you've treated others in the past, in deciding if you are trustworthy?
But even if all the rest were set aside - your current blunder, and unwillingness to apologize and make amends, shows very well what sort of person you are. At least, as far as I am concerned. Others may disagree. But not many I bet.
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Who's Bobby?
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On 2006-04-06 16:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
So, should parents who have filed lawsuits on behalf of their minor children feel ?ashamed? because their kids name will appear in a public document that ANYONE can read? That shit is public information.
No parent gave her permission to post the docs? Did they give PACER permission???
Why do you think that news organizations have a policy about redacting the names of minor children or sexual assault victims even though they have the "legal right" to publish them?
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Why was there all the flooding of CAICA promos during the Martin Anderson thing? When that story broke there was a shitload of anon posts telling people that if they wanted info they needed to go to the CAICA site. There were a few referencing FICA but nothing like the barrage that came in for/from CAICA and FICA's certainly didn't have the tone of superiority as CAICA's, IMO.
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Why the flooding? Come on. Some people just love attention and feeling important.
Why press releases, especially those that include your own phone, cell and fax numbers?
And who goes on someone else's forum and says:
Come read CA CA for the REAL STORY?
Give me a break!
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On 2006-04-06 21:46:00, Joyce Harris wrote:
"Anon Speaker: I did speak, and I use my name.
I simply asked that Isabelle at CAICA not post minor children's names on her website when she publishes legal documents.
Isabelle informed me she would be removing our statement about Whitmore Academy from her website, and that is her choice, since it is her website.
You continue to argue with Buzzkill without identifying yourself. What is your interest in this topic?"
my interest is that you, buzz, and apparently a few anon posters brought your bitch to a public forum and have provided precious little to support the notion that this woman is crazy. from what i see, her site is one of the better.
i noticed Aaron Bacon's name was removed. is that because HIS PARENTs requested it?
so joyce,
were you in fact harrassing her? attempting to dictate how she should run her website? is your kid's name up there? so who exactly are you concerned about/trying to protect, and why? more concerned than their parents?
and speak more to the fucking issue of plagerism. link to something on that site you consider to be plagerized.
and to the anon- WHICH DEATHS DOES SHE HAVE WRONG?
what the fuck is this. some kind of pissing contest to determine which advocate has the best site? they're all good. the more the merrier. did FICA post anything about Anderson? i can't check because the site is down.
you can damn well bet that if i spent the time to create a detailed site where people could read extensively on a particular program/death, i'd be putting the link out every chance i got. otherwise, what's the purpose? i'm sure she, nor any of the others, went to that effort for themselves.
you and buzz have been around the block on this issue. why don't you two start your own site and do it the way YOU THINK OTHERS SHOULD?
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On 2006-04-07 04:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-06 16:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
So, should parents who have filed lawsuits on behalf of their minor children feel ?ashamed? because their kids name will appear in a public document that ANYONE can read? That shit is public information.
No parent gave her permission to post the docs? Did they give PACER permission???
Why do you think that news organizations have a policy about redacting the names of minor children or sexual assault victims even though they have the "legal right" to publish them?"
::bump::
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I said what happened and it was that simple.
I only speak for myself.
And I do not talk to any ANON who can not write one sentence that is not filled with:
"damn, fuck, bitch"
I want you to calm down, lady.
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On 2006-04-07 07:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Why the flooding? Come on. Some people just love attention and feeling important.
Why press releases, especially those that include your own phone, cell and fax numbers?
And who goes on someone else's forum and says:
Come read CA CA for the REAL STORY?
Give me a break!
"
no, give us a break!!
what is wrong with issuing press releases with your contact info?
what's with all the hyperventilating?
please post just a few links in which it was stated or implied that people should "read CA CA for the REAL STORY".
post one link to any derogatory comment by this org or attempt to smear another advocate.
what REALLY crawled up ya'lls asses and died?
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On 2006-04-07 07:45:00, Joyce Harris wrote:
"I said what happened and it was that simple.
I only speak for myself.
And I do not talk to any ANON who can not write one sentence that is not filled with:
"damn, fuck, bitch"
I want you to calm down, lady."
yeh, yeh, like you want to tell someone else how to run their website and smear them because they don't submit to your desires. i took out the offensive word. might you answer the questions now?
i noticed Aaron Bacon's name was removed. is that because HIS PARENTs requested it?
so joyce,
were you in fact harrassing her? attempting to dictate how she should run her website? is your kid's name up there? so who exactly are you concerned about/trying to protect, and why? more concerned than their parents?
and speak more to the issue of plagerism. link to something on that site you consider to be plagerized.
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"no give us a break"
Why don't you register, Anon so people know who they are talking to>
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On 2006-04-07 07:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-07 07:45:00, Joyce Harris wrote:
"I said what happened and it was that simple.
I only speak for myself.
And I do not talk to any ANON who can not write one sentence that is not filled with:
"damn, fuck, bitch"
I want you to calm down, lady."
yeh, yeh, like you want to tell someone else how to run their website and smear them because they don't submit to your desires. i took out the offensive word. might you answer the questions now?
i noticed Aaron Bacon's name was removed. is that because HIS PARENTs requested it?
so joyce,
were you in fact harrassing her? attempting to dictate how she should run her website? is your kid's name up there? so who exactly are you concerned about/trying to protect, and why? more concerned than their parents?
and speak more to the issue of plagerism. link to something on that site you consider to be plagerized.
"
What do you mean Aaron Bacon's name was removed. Removed from where?
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Well this has sure nuff been enlightening.
///my interest is that you, buzz, and apparently a few anon posters brought your bitch to a public forum and have provided precious little to support the notion that this woman is crazy. from what i see, her site is one of the better. ///
I haven't said you were crazy. Until now, I had no reason to think it. I have said, that based on my knowledge of how you have treated others, I personally feel you are not to be trusted; you are irresponsible, self absorbed; manipulative and deceptive. I will now add crazy to the list.
I have no need to prove these things Izzy - you've done that for me.
Your angry that this "bitch" about your behavior has been taken public - but you have no problem with making public child abuse victims most private information.
Its Remarkable, this ability of yours to focus so totally on yourself.
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My goodness!
Can't we all just get along? So much animosity.
The goal is to shed light upon the abuses our children are experiences.
All websites are important in that respect.
It IS very inappropriate to expose minor childrens names on the internet without their permission.Public record or not.
These kids will have to live with the shame of their experiences for the rest of their lives.It is not anyone's place to share that ugliness to the public. There are better more professional and empathic ways to disclose the atrocities taking place in the facilities.
Keep it real . Keep it humane. Get permission or your websites will be boycotted......
This tit for tat reinforces how goofy parents and adults can be. Self supporting at the expense of another is unacceptable. IMO.
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What do you mean Aaron Bacon's name was removed. Removed from where?
"
http://www.caica.org/NEWS%20Deaths%20Co ... 0Bacon.htm (http://www.caica.org/NEWS%20Deaths%20Court%20opinion%20Bacon.htm)
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On 2006-04-07 08:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
""no give us a break"
Why don't you register, Anon so people know who they are talking to>"
very curious request, coming from another anon??
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On 2006-04-06 21:19:00, BuzzKill wrote:
"///why doesn't TAUSA have ANYTHING at all on WWASP? ///
Do you really not know? Or are you being an extra large Ass?
no, don't assume everyone knows everything you know. why? and why aren't all the deaths listed? oversight? just not that interested? i don't know. the list of deaths at CAICA is the most thorough i've seen. still wondering which are considered to be wrong.
why the parents of these kids haven't requested their kids names be redacted? if they aren't concerned, why are the posters in this thread?
buzz, you wrongly assume you are responding to isabelle. but, carry on, i'm sure she's reading.
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Okay, well hopefully we've all learned some lessons, and can move on.
Promoting your own website on another forum is fine I think.
Listing the full names of these minors attached to their complaints on your website is probably not in their best interest.
I try to think how I would have felt being 16 when I had my issues with WWASPS having my name spread all over the internet......I think it would have caused me to be even more depressed.
Being a 32 year old adult, I could care less really. I realize that most people are so busy with their lives, nobody cares really. The world does not revolve around me, as a kid you feel like your life is under a microscope, it's different.
I think that when they listed the full names of these kids, maybe they weren't thinking about how they would feel. I don't think they were thinking at all. Neither were the lawyers.
But, hopefully they've had some time to think.....and will do the right thing. The right thing being for us to protect these kids by removing the names, or atleast take out the last name for crying out loud! It's bad enough they had to endure the abuse they did, but to feel like the world is seeing right through you is an uncomfortable feeling.
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On 2006-04-07 09:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-06 21:19:00, BuzzKill wrote:
"///why doesn't TAUSA have ANYTHING at all on WWASP? ///
Do you really not know? Or are you being an extra large Ass?
no, don't assume everyone knows everything you know. why? and why aren't all the deaths listed? oversight? just not that interested? i don't know. the list of deaths at CAICA is the most thorough i've seen. still wondering which are considered to be wrong.
why the parents of these kids haven't requested their kids names be redacted? if they aren't concerned, why are the posters in this thread?
buzz, you wrongly assume you are responding to isabelle. but, carry on, i'm sure she's reading."
Isabelle who?
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
-
I don't really have a problem with sites borrowing or linking to one another. I do have a major problem with minor kids names being published, legally or not, parental consent or not. The lawyers don't give a shit how it might effect a kid and the parents probably don't really and fully understand what it can do.
Let's hope she takes this into consideration.
-
I would like to know why Joyce Harris' statement was taken down. Any explanation on that?
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On 2006-04-07 09:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
Let's hope she takes this into consideration.
"
Looks like she has....
http://www.caica.org/NEWS%20Deaths%20Co ... 0Bacon.htm (http://www.caica.org/NEWS%20Deaths%20Court%20opinion%20Bacon.htm)
(Note: Child's name has been removed out of respect for his family)
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That's just ONE case.
Look under "LITIGATION" on the caica website. The other cases posted still show all minor children's full names.
-
But those look, to me at least, like names that have already been published somewhere else. Is that not the case?
-
Give it a rest, IZZY. These names were published in court records only, not on some website.
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On 2006-04-07 10:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Give it a rest, IZZY. These names were published in court records only, not on some website."
Look, I'm not Izzy....honest to god. I'm just curious about what all the fuss is about. I have a major problem with her if she is, in fact, posting names of minor children, BUT if it has already been done on other sites or articles or newscasts then it's already out there.
I haven't looked into CAICA much. I'm just starting to so I'm asking for information.
-
On 2006-04-07 10:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Give it a rest, IZZY. These names were published in court records only, not on some website."
which ones are you refering to?
i know for a fact that some of those documents are posted here and elsewhere, with names.
Bacon- there are links all over Fornits for that court document- http://courtlink.utcourts.gov/opinions/ ... 12_98.htm- (http://courtlink.utcourts.gov/opinions/appopin/fisher12_98.htm-) which no longer works, btw!!! very unfortunate. people should know what that program did to this young man. fortunately, it can now be linked to at caica. having a name attached makes it real, personal.
Link to court doc at TAUSA
http://www.teenadvocatesusa.homestead.c ... young.html (http://www.teenadvocatesusa.homestead.com/foreveryoung.html)
Farmer-
http://fornits.com/anonanon/docs/wwasp/toc.htm (http://fornits.com/anonanon/docs/wwasp/toc.htm)
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%2 ... +%2B+wwasp (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22gina+farmer%22+%2B+wwasp)
Burke- http://www.rickross.com/reference/teenb ... boot8.html (http://www.rickross.com/reference/teenboot/teenboot8.html)
http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... awsuit.htm (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/TeenHelp/burkelawsuit.htm)
Dochterman-
http://www.kscourts.org/CA10/cases/2003/02/01-4247.htm (http://www.kscourts.org/CA10/cases/2003/02/01-4247.htm)
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=& ... +teen+help (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Dochterman+%2B+teen+help)
And some not listed- LaFleur, Goold, Doubinin
http://www.kscourts.org/ca10/cases/2003/09/02-4160.htm (http://www.kscourts.org/ca10/cases/2003/09/02-4160.htm)
Giannone- have to have a password to view it at TAUSA. posted too many times and places to list.
http://www.google.com/search?q=Giannone ... &hl=en&lr= (http://www.google.com/search?q=Giannone+v.+Ayne&btnG=Search&hl=en&lr=)
so, what has she done that is so different than what others have/are doing?
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On 2006-04-07 09:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I would like to know why Joyce Harris' statement was taken down. Any explanation on that?"
details are sketchy at best, but appears that harris harrassed IZ about what she should do, until IZ wanted nothing else to do with her or her story. who knows the truth. although, would like to hear IZ's side of the story, fwiw.
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On 2006-04-07 11:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
details are sketchy at best, but appears that harris harrassed IZ about what she should do, until IZ wanted nothing else to do with her or her story.
What makes it appear that way?
-
have you read the thread? not going to recap.
-
Someone might best know how to define the term "harassment" and maybe should be careful about throwing such accusations around.
-
it is an assumption. does it make any kind of sense that IZ would take down harris' story and sever contact if harris had only 'suggested' she redact minors names? i doubt it, but who knows.
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On 2006-04-07 12:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"it is an assumption. does it make any kind of sense that IZ would take down harris' story and sever contact if harris had only 'suggested' she redact minors names? i doubt it, but who knows."
I think it might also depend on Izzy's relationship with Sue Scheff.
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It's rather academic if CAICA jumped on the bandwagon about the Whitmore Academy story after the midnight hour. Taking down the Harris statement matters not.
The owner of the Whitmore, Cheryl Sudweeks has been charged with criminal child abuse, and the trial is scheduled.
The Whitmore only has 3 kids enrolled, not the 45 enrollment of November 2004.
The Sudweeks have a civil case pending.
CAICA had and has no effect on anything regarding the Whitmore Academy.
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Sue Scheff must just love reading this forum, don't you think? Izzy could just say sorry, tell Sue she took down the Harris statement that criticizes PURE, and get on with things.
-
What I was referring to is that Sue is pissed b/c Joyce sued Whitmore. If Izzy is close with Sue then it stands to reason, given Sue's reputation, that she would try and get Izzy to remove anything critical of the Whitmore.
-
Why would Sue care who Joyce sues?
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On 2006-04-07 12:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What I was referring to is that Sue is pissed b/c Joyce sued Whitmore. If Izzy is close with Sue then it stands to reason, given Sue's reputation, that she would try and get Izzy to remove anything critical of the Whitmore."
that sounds plausible but,
http://www.caica.org/NEWS%20Whitmore%204-29-05.htm (http://www.caica.org/NEWS%20Whitmore%204-29-05.htm)
http://www.caica.org/NEWS%20WHITMORE%20 ... cademy.htm (http://www.caica.org/NEWS%20WHITMORE%206-11-05%20Academy.htm)
and i haven't read all pages.
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Please tell Izzy if she has questions about my integrity, TAUSA or anything I have written about Aaron Bacon (whose family I know personally) to put them into an email to me and I will be glad to set her straight.
Barbe Stamps
TAUSA
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On 2006-04-07 12:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Why would Sue care who Joyce sues?"
Are you kidding me?
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On 2006-04-07 13:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Please tell Izzy if she has questions about my integrity, TAUSA or anything I have written about Aaron Bacon (whose family I know personally) to put them into an email to me and I will be glad to set her straight.
Barbe Stamps
TAUSA"
the comment about Bacon's name being on your site was not made by IZ, NOR was it intended to question your integrity. it was offered as an example to show that caica is not the only site that lists kids names. buzz wrongly assumed she was interacting with IZ.
why don't you have any info on WWASP at your site? can you talk about that?
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Give us a list of other advocacy sites that list court documents that show children's full names.
I dare you!
-
There is a lot I don't have my site, including links to a certain advocacy site I just heard about called CAICA. As for WWASPS or any other program like them, I decided to focus on the wilderness therapy industry 3 years ago for a reason: his name is Ian August.
BARBE STAMPS
TAUSA
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Why doesn't Cathy Sutton expound on the Wilderness programs?
Does she approve of court documents that are 8-9 years old being posted on CAICA like the Burke case, that never went to trial, by the way.
Will Cathy be posting her court records for public view?
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On 2006-04-07 13:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
"There is a lot I don't have my site, including links to a certain advocacy site I just heard about called CAICA. As for WWASPS or any other program like them, I decided to focus on the wilderness therapy industry 3 years ago for a reason: his name is Ian August.
BARBE STAMPS
TAUSA"
good reason!! an unecessary and brutal death.
thanks for the clarification Barbe. your home page states "troubled teen idustry" which could be construed to mean all programs.
http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/ (http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/)
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On 2006-04-07 13:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Give us a list of other advocacy sites that list court documents that show children's full names.
I dare you!"
are you following this discussion?
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =60#186320 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=14788&forum=9&start=60#186320)
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On 2006-04-07 13:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Give us a list of other advocacy sites that list court documents that show children's full names.
I dare you!"
::bump::
Well????
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Those are not advocacy sites. Good try tho, IZZY.
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On 2006-04-07 14:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Those are not advocacy sites. Good try tho, IZZY."
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
-
teen advocates usa
intrepid
fornits
aren?t advocate sites??
and here?s some I missed
at isacs (bethel and ayne)
http://www.isaccorp.org/bethel/bethelcomplaint.pdf (http://www.isaccorp.org/bethel/bethelcomplaint.pdf)
http://www.isaccorp.org/alldredge/alldr ... stbite.pdf (http://www.isaccorp.org/alldredge/alldredgefrostbite.pdf)
at Heal online (Accomazzo)
http://www.heal-online.org/cedu.htm (http://www.heal-online.org/cedu.htm)
that's all i'm willing to do. point being, caica is not, by far, the only site that has posted court documents, names included.
-
Listen, idiots, after having your soul raped, having your name posted on the Internet is not a big fucking deal.. unless you're a wannabe teacher being outed as a fucking pervert, but I digress.
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On 2006-04-07 15:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
point being, caica is not, by far, the only site that has posted court documents, names included."
But are they posting court documents that have not previously been published on a public venue?
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On 2006-04-07 15:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-07 15:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
point being, caica is not, by far, the only site that has posted court documents, names included."
But are they posting court documents that have not previously been published on a public venue?"
It's really a question of morals, not legalities. If the names haven't been made public somewhere OTHER than the court papers I've got a major problem with that. As has been stated, it's the same reason why news agencies don't publish names of minors or sexual assault victims. Common courtesy and thinking about the kid and his or her future.
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On 2006-04-07 15:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-07 15:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
point being, caica is not, by far, the only site that has posted court documents, names included."
But are they posting court documents that have not previously been published on a public venue?"
if you don't know the answer to that question, you haven't read what's been provided. what a waste of time you are.
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Alright then, clear it up for dense ol me here. Maybe I missed it. I can't stay glued to the damn board. I don't recall reading a specific answer to the question. If I missed it I guess I'm an idiot. Help a geezer out. :roll:
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Think ISAC is a watchdog site, isn't it?
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Have they posted court docs w/ names that have not previously been made public? I honestly don't know, maybe they have. If they have, they're wrong too IMO.
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Who might step up the the plate and set a higher standard and do the right thing, then?
Might that be you, Isabelle?
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On 2006-04-07 15:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Think ISAC is a watchdog site, isn't it?"
does it matter in the context of this discussion if the are "watchdog" or "advocate"? the issue on the table is "SITES THAT POST LEGAL DOCUMENTS WITHOUT REDACTING THE MINORS NAMES".
and ISAC (and others) indeed posted some of the same documents posted at CAICA. no one's bitching about that. trying to understand the bias.
-
Again, how about a higher standard?
-
Here's your higher standard:
http://www.10tv.com/vplayer.php?clip=20 ... rotest.wmv (http://www.10tv.com/vplayer.php?clip=2006_03_31_Rehab_Camp_Draws_Protest.wmv)
:smokin:
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Cool!!
::cheers::
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It's really a question of morals, not legalities. If the names haven't been made public somewhere OTHER than the court papers I've got a major problem with that. As has been stated, it's the same reason why news agencies don't publish names of minors or sexual assault victims. Common courtesy and thinking about the kid and his or her future."
the time to think about morals/legalities, and a kid's future is BEFORE you turn you kid over to righteous, sadistic, money hunger programs. and certainly BEFORE you take legal action, which brings it all into the public realm.
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ISAC has often gone to a great deal of trouble to redact minor's names from documents they post.
In their reports, as well as the trial transcripts, Care was taken to protect the privacy rights of the minors involved.
No way ISAC would take advantage of PACER access to pull up court filings on cases pending, and display them with the minor child abuse victims names intact, as CaCa has done.
The information on Bethel came directly from the family, who requested the information be made accessible.
In the case of the Aldridge docs, if you'd actually read them - IZZY - you'd see the young man was 19 when they were posted. I feel confident if he were to request a name redaction or their removel ISAC would comply. Besides their value as an educational resorce, ISAC exist to help people tell their story - not re-victimize them.
Such is not the case with CaCa and the Whitmore families.
Izzy needs to pull her head out of her ass and consider the important differences.
There is no comparison.
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On 2006-04-08 11:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
It's really a question of morals, not legalities. If the names haven't been made public somewhere OTHER than the court papers I've got a major problem with that. As has been stated, it's the same reason why news agencies don't publish names of minors or sexual assault victims. Common courtesy and thinking about the kid and his or her future."
the time to think about morals/legalities, and a kid's future is BEFORE you turn you kid over to righteous, sadistic, money hunger programs. and certainly BEFORE you take legal action, which brings it all into the public realm.
"
Well DUH .. but it doesn't excuse publishing documents just because you can. Any advocate can do what she's doing whether they work for a lawfirm as a paralegal or not. ISAC doesn't do it and either does TAUSA or any of the other groups and websites. So let's just call a spade a spade and stop with the excuses.
Also, that poem/song? There are better ways to memorialize children who have been killed at the hands of this industry than put words into their mouths about their "feelings" at the time of their demise. It's really ghastly, IMO. Very poor taste.
-
can you provide links to any documents in which the kids names have been redacted at TAUSA, Intrepid, ISAC, Heal, or here at Fornits (are there others?). I didn?t find any. Actually I recall there may have been one, possibly at ISAC.
so what, the day the kid turned 19 all his trauma, possible public humiliation, desire for privacy just left him? split some damn hairs buzz. just show some links to court documents where the names have been redacted. thanks
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On 2006-04-08 12:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
Also, that poem/song? There are better ways to memorialize children who have been killed at the hands of this industry than put words into their mouths about their "feelings" at the time of their demise. It's really ghastly, IMO. Very poor taste.
"
people aren't mind readers. who put words into their mouths? what are you referencing? any links to demonstrate what you're saying?
-
The link to CAICA's litigation webpage is not working.
:eek:
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On 2006-04-08 12:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
There are better ways to memorialize children who have been killed at the hands of this industry than put words into their mouths about their "feelings" at the time of their demise. It's really ghastly, IMO. Very poor taste.
OK, as I see it here is that this issue wouldn't be such an issue if there wasn't personal animosity directed at IZ. For those of us who know her, I think we all understand the statement above and why we question her motives. While the above doesn't explicity state this, other posts have adn I beleive that many of us find her self-consumption, self-absorbtion and the over all oblivious or general indifferent manner in which she conducts herself contrary to what it means to be an advocate for others. I think that, essentially, it's hard to buy because so much personal ego gets in the way of what she does. That is too bad because, as she has pointed out here, 'the more the merrier' and also naively states 'why not be happy' at that, that caica exists? well, it's difficult to be happy when so much of this work seems to revolve around getting your name out there, IZ, as much as it is about helping kids... well perhaps more given that you ignore some of the finer points of advocacy work, that is RESPECT.
There's nothing more repulsive than that. Not to mention that when you begin to mess with the reputation of others, paticulary to elevate your own status...well, that's just about the quickest way to lose respect and turn people against you... which is what I suspect is what's happening now .
The poems do come across as extremely tasteless, as does the manner in which IZ inserts herself and her name as if she alone is the angel with wings coming to rescue kids, ( press conferences, harassing CPS workers) and many of us are all to well aware of how incapable IZ's of working with others because she's unwilling to examine herself, her motives, and it then becomes clear that she does not act as selflessly as is necessary... her inability to take in criticisms and quickness to place her own flaws on others has led to this backlash, in my opinion. Her intentions may be good, but her execution and her desperate need to elevate her status lends a sort of pleasure to her down fall.
It's like that self-important kid in school who would lie all the time to make himself look good and do it with such condesention, trying to 'tell you like it is' (while you roll your eyes and appease him) ... it's like seeing that kid get tripped up and seeing him, in some way, get that same BS thrown back at him finally... that's how I see this. Hostility and animosity way to high.[ This Message was edited by: Eudora on 2006-04-09 07:30 ]
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In the case of the Aldridge docs, if you'd actually read them - IZZY - you'd see the young man was 19 when they were posted. I feel confident if he were to request a name redaction or their removel ISAC would comply. Besides their value as an educational resorce, ISAC exist to help people tell their story - not re-victimize them.
Such is not the case with CaCa and the Whitmore families.
Izzy needs to pull her head out of her ass and consider the important differences.
There is no comparison."
what? ISAC didn't get permission from the Giannone's "before" posting it? i don't see a posting date anywhere. accourding to the doc he was 17 in Oct 03. i don't see a posting date.
whitmore families- more than joyce? what happen to all the whitmore families? or is that a secret too? did she take down all their stories? are they pissed because they WANTED their court docs posted there with the names redacted, but she wouldn't agree? WHAT for crying out loud did she do to these poor people to cause this shit storm, or guess i should say CaCa storm?
cause i for one ain't puttin her on death row for "runnin up a person's phone bill" or for missing/canceling a meeting with a reporter, OR for taking down joyce's story or denying her request/demand(?). where's the beef?
talk more about her relationship with SS. that seems to be what this is really all about. there may be some beef there.
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On 2006-04-08 20:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"On 2006-04-08 12:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
There are better ways to memorialize children who have been killed at the hands of this industry than put words into their mouths about their "feelings" at the time of their demise. It's really ghastly, IMO. Very poor taste.
OK, as I see it here is that this issue wouldn't be such an issue if there wasn't personal animosity directed at IZ. For those of us who know her, I think we all understand the statement above and why we question her motives. While the above doesn't explicity state this, other posts have adn I beleive that many of us find her self-consumption, self-absorbtion and the over all oblivious or general indifferent manner in which she conducts herself contrary to what it means to be an advocate for others. I think that, essentially, it's hard to buy because so much personal ego gets in the way of what she does. That is too bad because, as she has pointed out here, 'the more the merrier' and also naively states 'why not be happy' at that, that caica exists? well, it's difficult to be happy when so much of this work seems to revolve around getting your name out there, IZ, as much as it is about helping kids... well perhaps more given that you ignore some of the finer points of advocacy work, that is RESPECT.
There's nothing more repulsive than that. Not to mention that when you begin to mess with the reputation of others, paticulary to elevate your own status...well, that's just about the quickest way to lose respect and turn people against you... which is what I suspect is what's happening now .
The poems do come across as extremely tasteless, as does the manner in which IZ inserts herself and her name as if she alone is the angel with wings coming to rescue kids, ( press conferences, harassing CPS workers) and many of us are all to well aware of how incapable IZ's of working with others because she's unwilling to examine herself, her motives, and it then becomes clear that she does not act as selflessly as is necessary... her inability to take in criticisms and quickness to place her own flaws on others has led to this backlash, in my opinion. Her intentions may be good, but her execution and her desperate need to elevate her status lends a sort of pleasure to her down fall.
It's like that self-important kid in school who would lie all the time to make himself look good and do it with such condesention, trying to 'tell you like it is' (while you roll your eyes and appease him) ... it's like seeing that kid get tripped up and seeing him, in some way, get that same BS thrown back at him finally... that's how I see this. Hostility and animosity way to high."
well thanks for your psych eval of IZ. all of us who don't have a fucking clue what the caca storm is all about are just totally informed now why we shouldn't trust this woman or the information at her otherwise, pretty excellent, site.
now that you've gotten your eval of her off your chest, what did she do to you? less generalities and more specificis would be nice.[ This Message was edited by: Eudora on 2006-04-09 07:33 ]
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On 2006-04-08 12:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
Well DUH .. but it doesn't excuse publishing documents just because you can. Any advocate can do what she's doing whether they work for a lawfirm as a paralegal or not. ISAC doesn't do it and either does TAUSA or any of the other groups and websites. So let's just call a spade a spade and stop with the excuses.
"
let's do call a spade a spade. links were posted to most of the leading survivor/advocate sites which did not redact the names of minors. if you don't want to check those links fine, but indeed, every site i looked at contains such documents.
for the record, i support redacting the names, particularly if the family requests it. i can't get behind the caca shit storm attack based on the falicy being perpetrated- that she/they have done something different than the other sites in terms of court documents. it's clearly not true.
also for the record, i support the other sites and my comments aren't intended as critisism toward them. i just fail to see where they have done it differently. hammer another, valid, point.
i'd still like to see examples of plagerism. and would like to know which of the deaths you consider to be inaccurate. those claims were made. now, show the proof. and what was done to the Whitmore parents- plural- as in more than joyce.
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http://isaccorp.org/bethel/bethelcomplaint.pdf (http://isaccorp.org/bethel/bethelcomplaint.pdf)
Why?
-
Why? Because the parent requested that it be posted, that is why.
-
and a link to the "poems"- i'm assuming these are poems she wrote? i'd like to decide for myself if she comes off as the "lone angel". with such a huge "ego", you'd think the link to her poems would be large and in plain view. i can't find them.
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Nice try -- but ISAC is not even in the same league as Izzie/CAICA for the reasons Buzz pointed out, ergo there is no double standard.
Second, TAUSA doesn't publish court documents period, and the other websites, I don't think anyone has posted a link to show they do either.
So back to square one. CAICA/Izzie made her own bed and has to lie in it. Since the litigation page is not working, are we to presume she is cleaning house?
:wink:
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On 2006-04-08 21:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
and a link to the "poems"- i'm assuming these are poems she wrote? i'd like to decide for myself if she comes off as the "lone angel". with such a huge "ego", you'd think the link to her poems would be large and in plain view. i can't find them."
Naw, she just moved it. For awhile it was at the top of the page, the memorial to Aaron Bacon, think it was.
Totally disgusting, IMO.
And I am not posting a link to it to potentially annoy anybody else. It's there if you wanna read it. Once was enough for me.
-
The Whitmore Academy page on CAICA is not working either. Did IZZY cave into Sue Scheff at PURE and take down everything about Whitmore Academy?
The owner at Whitmore Academy has been charged with 7 counts of child abuse and has a criminal tril pending.
Surely an ADVOCATE wouldn't ignore this abusive situation.
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On 2006-04-08 21:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Why? Because the parent requested that it be posted, that is why."
parent- as in one? looks to be about ten or twelve kids. all their parents wanted it posted? not saying they didn't, just curious. are you speaking as a rep for ISAC? the parent?
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The parent in the Bethel case asked ISAC to publish that court case. That is not related to the Whitmore Academy.
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On 2006-04-08 21:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Nice try -- but ISAC is not even in the same league as Izzie/CAICA for the reasons Buzz pointed out, ergo there is no double standard.
Second, TAUSA doesn't publish court documents period, and the other websites, I don't think anyone has posted a link to show they do either.
So back to square one. CAICA/Izzie made her own bed and has to lie in it. Since the litigation page is not working, are we to presume she is cleaning house?
:wink:
"
your comments may convince anyone who didn't follow the links. i did, and i know better.
so this IS a pissing match over which site is superior.
yes, tausa provides links to court docs. it requires a password, or some such. also, her response to why all deaths weren't listed on her site, and why nothing about WWASP- was that she had decided to focus on wilderness programs only. well, i notice there is a page on Whitmore, which is a good thing, but they weren't a wilderness program. and all the deaths listed did not happen at wilderness programs. rtc and tbs are included. a bit confusing, but what the hell.
things just aren't shakin out. aren't making sense excpet to those in the inner circle of this lynching mob. might i remind all of you that this isn't your private forum to make generalized criticisms. the public is reading and it's rude to chat amongst yourself and refuse to provide links to support your allegations.
btw, i found the poems.
http://www.caica.org/CHILDREN%20ARE%20DYING.htm (http://www.caica.org/CHILDREN%20ARE%20DYING.htm)
they actually look like songs. i found them to be respectful and touching. others may as well.
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On 2006-04-08 22:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The parent in the Bethel case asked ISAC to publish that court case. That is not related to the Whitmore Academy."
did someone imply that bethel was related to whitmore?
there wasn't A parent in the bethel case. more like ten or twelve.
http://www.isaccorp.org/bethel/bethelcomplaint.pdf (http://www.isaccorp.org/bethel/bethelcomplaint.pdf)
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Pissing match?
Lynching mob?
Allegations?F
"Found" the poems?
This is some strange behavior going on here.
Just strange.
Almost sad and pitiful.
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Ca-ca does not remove names
on fornits we post
a foreigner wants this poem
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On 2006-04-08 22:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-08 21:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Nice try -- but ISAC is not even in the same league as Izzie/CAICA for the reasons Buzz pointed out, ergo there is no double standard.
Second, TAUSA doesn't publish court documents period, and the other websites, I don't think anyone has posted a link to show they do either.
So back to square one. CAICA/Izzie made her own bed and has to lie in it. Since the litigation page is not working, are we to presume she is cleaning house?
:wink:
"
your comments may convince anyone who didn't follow the links. i did, and i know better.
so this IS a pissing match over which site is superior.
yes, tausa provides links to court docs. it requires a password, or some such. also, her response to why all deaths weren't listed on her site, and why nothing about WWASP- was that she had decided to focus on wilderness programs only. well, i notice there is a page on Whitmore, which is a good thing, but they weren't a wilderness program. and all the deaths listed did not happen at wilderness programs. rtc and tbs are included. a bit confusing, but what the hell.
things just aren't shakin out. aren't making sense excpet to those in the inner circle of this lynching mob. might i remind all of you that this isn't your private forum to make generalized criticisms. the public is reading and it's rude to chat amongst yourself and refuse to provide links to support your allegations.
btw, i found the poems.
http://www.caica.org/CHILDREN%20ARE%20DYING.htm (http://www.caica.org/CHILDREN%20ARE%20DYING.htm)
they actually look like songs. i found them to be respectful and touching. others may as well.
"
No, TAUSA is undergoing a major website re-design. There is a message posted on the site that says some links to webpages on the site are DISABLED while the site is being upgraded, including the archived material which is where all the wilderness material would be. There is a letter on her website, perhaps you should read it?
Sheesh!~ Give it a rest. There's plenty of room for opinions and websites. Print/Publish anything you want. People don't like it, well, this ain't group, so you can expect some honest feedback.
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
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On 2006-04-09 00:59:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"Could you try that in the form of a haiku?Forgive, O Lord, my little joke on Thee and I'll forgive Thy great big one on me.
--Robert Frost, American poet
"
HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!! :rofl:
TWG, you make me laugh.
That said, I'm not clear on certain issues, so please bear with me- what did Sue Scheff do?[ This Message was edited by: katfish on 2006-04-09 07:38 ]
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On 2006-04-08 22:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The parent in the Bethel case asked ISAC to publish that court case. That is not related to the Whitmore Academy."
Same parent who put their kid in Bethel to begin with? There's sound judgement!
Look you guys. "Izzy" actually contacted me asking WTF!! I know why she took the litigation link down. She's concerned. What with all the shit talkin', there still remains a valid argument over whether or not to dedact the names of minors.
Public documents are public documents. That's part of how our adversarial system works. We're not supposed to go running to the courts (i.e. envoking force of law) over every petty dispute. When you take a matter to the public courts, the matter becomes public. That's part of the system, just like the often painful, arduous discovery process.
But, on the other hand, these kids have very little say and (often) even less capacity to give informed consent. I'm all for dedacting the names of minors, regardless of what the parents think. I find that thinking is not the parents strongest suit.
But WTF is this???? 130 post long come down rap on someone who's not even involved?
If I had to venture a guess, I'd say Isabelle's "crime" was to mistake ISAC for sane, rational, kind people; to get involved in their endevours. I know all about that. No good deed ever goes unpunished.
Redemption: Deliverance of sinners from the penalty of their sins through the murder of their deity against whom they sinned.
--Ambrose Bierce
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On 2006-04-08 21:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The Whitmore Academy page on CAICA is not working either. Did IZZY cave into Sue Scheff at PURE and take down everything about Whitmore Academy?
Anon, did you talk to her about the Whit pages at all? What was the result of that conversation?Power concedes nothing without a demand. The limit of oppression is determined by the extent of the endurance of the oppressed.
--Frederick Douglas
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On 2006-04-06 13:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Anon who doesn't understand the issue here.
Just google "Isabelle Zehnder and Majestic Ranch" and READ!!!
Read this article in the Salt Lake City Tribune by Kristen Stewart.
This will give you a little understanding of how this woman sticks her nose into things she knows nothing about, and screws up an investigation, and in the NAME OF "helping kids."
That should get you started."
here's some excerpts and comments from
http://www.youthrights.org/forums/archi ... -2781.html (http://www.youthrights.org/forums/archive/index.php?t-2781.html)
A few things should be clarified in Kirten Stewart's March 2, 2005, article in the Salt Lake City Tribune, ?State?s Oversight of School Lambasted?.
Director Tammy Johnson said the complaints were fabricated by "disgruntled" ex-employees and that the report's author Isabelle Zehnder, has phoned the school "harassing employees" and posing as a CPS caseworker. [ :roll: yep, how many times have we seen that one? call asking legitmate questions and you're labeled a terrorist.]
Yes, the employees are disgruntled. Anyone who reads their sworn affidavits at http://www.kidsincaptivity.com (http://www.kidsincaptivity.com) (http://www.kidsincaptivity.com/ (http://www.kidsincaptivity.com/)) will agree they are. Disgruntled employees are employees who are upset about their work environment or conditions. All four knew that the abuse and deplorable conditions were wrong and they were courageous enough to come forward. They should be believed since, after all, they were willing to give sworn affidavits, and they should be commended.
Isabelle Zehnder categorically denied Tammy?s allegation that she called the ranch several times posing as a Child Protective Services (?CPS?) worker. She has only called Majestic Ranch once, and that was the time she spoke with Wayne Winder, as indicated in her affidavit. She has never posed as a CPS worker.
Tammy appears to be attacking the messenger because she did not like the message. I urge the readers to read the report and decide for themselves, again at http://www.kidsincaptivity.com (http://www.kidsincaptivity.com) (http://www.kidsincaptivity.com/ (http://www.kidsincaptivity.com/)).
Please, remember to send your letters to the governor as the bill will be on his desk soon. If he signs the bill, facilities like Majestic Ranch will have to be licensed, as step in the right direction.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
is this what you consider, "sticks her nose into things she knows nothing about, and screws up an investigation"?
thank you IZ!! for sticking your nose where some believe it doesn't belong.
most of us who've been around the block a few times know that the CPS office in Utah is first and formost concerned about the program. they don't shut anyone down unless there is significant media attention, and/or charges filed by the DA. hell, Sisco wrote an article posted on the CPS website promoting wilderness programs.
when CPS neglects to do their job, sometimes it takes a lone angel with a large ego (and preferably a hot poker) to go in and get things stirred up.
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I believe Tammy Johnson used to be Tammy Prince (maiden name) who took care of enrolling and touring parents for Cross Creek Manor.
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The report is no longer at http://www.kidsincaptivity.com (http://www.kidsincaptivity.com), but rather now at http://www.caica.org; (http://www.caica.org;) go to Facility Watch, scroll down to Majestic Ranch, and once on that page, you will find the report. Oh, heck, here's the link:
http://caica.org/KIC%20Main.htm (http://caica.org/KIC%20Main.htm)
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When no one has got your back and you go at it alone, that hot poker is bound to burn out. Hence, the importance of RESPECT and the ability to work with others rather than bad mouth them or act in such a way that alienates people.
The emphasis placed on I. Zhender, the level self-importance is a huge turn off, it's branding as if it's a selling point, like COKE ...only it's for the children!!!
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On 2006-04-09 21:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The report is no longer at http://www.kidsincaptivity.com (http://www.kidsincaptivity.com), but rather now at http://www.caica.org; (http://www.caica.org;) go to Facility Watch, scroll down to Majestic Ranch, and once on that page, you will find the report. Oh, heck, here's the link:
http://caica.org/KIC%20Main.htm (http://caica.org/KIC%20Main.htm)"
case in point, Zhender reports? How about Majestic Ranch reports? If it's about the kids, then make it about the kids.
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On 2006-04-10 11:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
When no one has got your back and you go at it alone, that hot poker is bound to burn out. Hence, the importance of RESPECT and the ability to work with others rather than bad mouth them or act in such a way that alienates people.
The emphasis placed on I. Zhender, the level self-importance is a huge turn off, it's branding as if it's a selling point, like COKE ...only it's for the children!!! "
Who shall I believe; you or my own lyin' eyes?
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Crickets chirping nice! One thing I do like about Caica's website is that link to the Inside Edition show where they are arresting Narvin Lichfield (owner of Dundee Ranch, now Pillars of Hope?)
I love it! Then after giving an interview he takes them into Dundee for a mini-tour. He takes them to one of the dorm rooms, which is no bigger then my bedroom here at home, infact smaller! There are 5 bunk beds which are stacked 3 beds high = 15 kids in this room. The reporter says wow, this is a little cramped, 15 kids stay in here? Narvin is like oh no it never housed more then 12! The reporter is like but I count 15 bunks?????
There must have been some law about not having more then 12 kids to a room? Or they were warned about it? God, Narvin sure is a dumb fucker! I watched that video atleast 3 times, and laughed my ass off!
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Yes, now Pillars of Hope for 18-22 year olds, I believe.