Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Straight, Inc. and Derivatives => Topic started by: Anonymous on March 03, 2006, 04:06:00 AM
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Call it a breakdown, call it paranoia:
I was watching the Straight Protest videos, the new ones. I hear Sammie saying things like, "you children, you're all vulnerable. No food, no choice, etc..."
While I'm an against everything that Sembler has done, would be a counterproductive measure to actually show people about 'concentration camp-like' behaviors for a Straight holocaust during a Jewish Holocaust Museum event?
I mean, it just kinda seems like maybe a different approach could be done? Umm, what about, umm, bashing their children's cars in or throwing rocks at their house windows? What about passing out flyers to people who do real estate business with Sembler and other businesses of Loebenberg? I don't know what other methods there are out there.
I guess I'm maybe also just wondering if anyone doesn't see the correlation between free advertising of Straight and Jewish "Holocaust". Are we certain that the mental picture people aren't getting is to further fund the Holocaust Museum? That's all I was asking.
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I think you're making some kind of an interesting and important observation but I'm not quite sure exactly what you're sayin. Could you clarify please ??
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they were living, breathing holocaust victims passing out flyers. they might as well have been hired by the semblers. that protest was dumb as shit. it was a "sammie parade" and was disgusting. i heard her asking "did you see me on montel?
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On 2006-03-03 07:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
"they were living, breathing holocaust victims passing out flyers. they might as well have been hired by the semblers. that protest was dumb as shit. it was a "sammie parade" and was disgusting. i heard her asking "did you see me on montel?"
Ok, thanks for your opinion. I, for one, am up for hearing an alternative to the "protest" idea. Seriously, I would like to hear an effective method of explaining how enraged we are, to a group of people who justify the actions of the Semblers by implying that they were "doing whats right for the kids".
How do you suggest we relay this message to folks that have no clue as to the damage created by "tough love" bullshit. Yet they feel strongly justified in hidding behind this thin veil of delusion. How do we vent our rage at the abuses without sounding/looking like lunatics?
Can we set aside our personalities, our individual disagreements. Could we go beyond our general intolerance of each other and set our sights on a plan of action?
We have our work cut out for us to achieve this (admittedly) lofty ideal. During such time as we find the answers to these questions and many others similar to them, doing nothing just further buries the history/past. We become passivistic and their arrogance only grows and strengthens.
Aside from numbers (there are many of us)a clear, consistant approach is required to obtain and maintan the public or targets interest. Shock and Awe techinques for what they are worth are ok, but the message is forgotten. The eyes will go to the body of the messanger and thier words fall on the wayside.
Yeah, I think alot can and could/should be different in efforts made to educate the public of the Semblers behavior. Perhaps if you were there, you too could have been a contributing factor during the evenings event. But alas, you weren't there, only here to besmirch the efforts of those there.
Perhaps thats a bit harsh, but seriously, what would you suggest, that would improve our efforts. What words of encouragement can you add that will help?
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On 2006-03-03 16:49:00, Woof-a-Doof wrote:
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What words of encouragement can you add that will help? "
I feel your frustration Woof.
I think the question asked by the anon does have some merit though, even though it was sorta rude.
I mean what is the publics' perception of the straight survivors who picket and protest ??
I'm glad that the Holocaust Museum protest was low key. I think in that way, we still managed to communicate the charges and at the same time sorta accidently, showed respect for human dignity. I think a loud protest with lots of signs would have been innapropriate anyway, at this particular event. I'm glad KPickle( I think it was) and Sammie and Woof went an' did what they done. And the footage is important documentation.
.[ This Message was edited by: starry-eyed pirate on 2006-03-03 17:21 ]
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to anon: i think what they were trying to achieve was to show all those jewish ppl the hipocracy of melvin.....a jew himself! how in the hell can he justify his actions about straight when his ppl were crusified by the germans in such horrible ways? the same kind of ways his "tough love" programs do to kids all accross the country! it was a very good place for a protest!it's just too bad no one there really got the gist of what they were really trying to show everyone about the "host" of the memorial!to all of us that got an ungreased totum pole shoved up our asses in that place,he and his "hench men" were like adolf and his "henchmen"! the crazy part of it all is that hitler was crushed for his crimes,melvin is still smiling for the camera!....thats my take on the protest anyways,maybe woof can elaborate more on this.....hippie
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I am ambivalent as hell on this. Anon, you do have a point. And there's been some fairly decent discussion along these lines in the Seed forum and probably elsewhere that I've missed.
On the one hand, the point of the protest is valid and the target is right on the mark. You want to know, really, how the Program is like the Third Reich? Where to begin. I could give you a good many examples, but I'll only give you the one that is nearly uniquely mine.
My parents joined the Seed when I was about 6. That was years before any formal, named toughlove hategroups or meetings or such like. But the philosophy, the lingo, the heart breaking, soul killing words like "Well your brain needed a good washing!" that was all part of the Program right from it's inception. I've read some about Nazi Germany. I think I have a fairly good idea what it must have been like to come up Jewish in Germany. Not identical experience, but significantly similar.
I won't say the Program was or is the Holocaust. I will, however, say that it's a small but significant part of it.
Just connect some dots, it's hard to miss. Brown & Root are, once again, on the public dole (while NOLA still has refrigerators in their trees) building very large internment camps. From the day Mel Sembler's buddy's bombastic retarded kid took office, they have been going into the national archive and reclassifying our fucking history!
Then came the Reichstagh Fire, which changed everything, then while Congress was out sick w/ the jitters over direct correspondence w/ their constituency (remember anthrax?) they passed the fucking Enabling Act. Look! They just did it again! Just yesterday!
But what the fuck do you expect when those same lunatics who held us captive and tortured us, their own flesh and blood, now hold the highest offices and control the black budgets?
Indeed, there are valid comparisons to make. But it takes some `splainin! That couple of paragraphs above don't even come close to properly framing the issue. And it's an awful lot to put on a poster board.
They never got to the heart of me because they assumed from the beginning they knew me.
To each her own, Anonymous
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since i feel i was asked i will think on this and come up with an answer.................(waiting to be called a sissy fag)...............................................................ok now that that is over. the first step is any kind of unity. what all survivors lack is togetherness before personality. so many people are mad and have never had any sort of venue to deal with the odd feelings that straight created, and they are odd feelings. as hard as it may seem, we all have to not be anonymous(iknow iknow...you first man). reagan youth and withdraw need to hold hands and sing cum bai yah. the first part of any protest is led by living an example, and is at the very heart of how strong it will be in influencing the way people think. strength erupts from unity, it is not created, it just happens. i think that evryone who can should go to matts concert(with no firearms) and laugh and cry and have A GOOD TIME. a good time is what creates unity and brotherhood, not having been through a bad time. seeing survivors who have created things and had families and been in jail and still can laugh out loud and sing and dance in the streets. we are not getting any younger and these petty angry small things will blow away in the wind and people will not remember them. the first part of any successful protest is to have a good time, this is what is attractive about people. strength comes from smiles, not cries. the very people we mock on this site that imprisoned us laugh at our unorganized pathetic attempts at closure. the talents and smarts that lie with in our brotherhood far outweigh those of our enemies but we do not look with in ourselves because we are too busy "reporting others". if we looked amongst us there is someone who can write a book about straight, there is someone who could create a broadway play about straight, and there is someone who could create a comic strip about straight. these things are amusing to people and are expression for us. expression is education for others and selfishly lets the bad times of the expressors go away. so, since asked i would say that the musically inclined should write a song for gigaroo, the literary should write a poem, and the thespians should perform some theater. the only way to upend a seesaw with a big fat ugly bad demon sitting on one side of it is to get together and catapult that motherfucker out of existense. what are you left with? a weapon. a powerful, unionized, heartfelt, compassionate weapon derived from human emotion and experience. then we start making bumper stickers.
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i agree with you totally.....even though i have said this kind of stuff myself,last night i was feeling very angry about what happened to me in there and said a "left hand compliment" to someone on another post.....i had just finished reading about lulu couter in the book"help at any cost"
and it got me really pissed off.....after my start over had been 5 months gone,i found out that by a staff member that it was a mistake....
they admitted to me that it was.that i should've never been started over,but since it had already happened,they couldn't "apply" the first step thenselves and corrected thier mistake!...i wound up being there another 10-11 months and didn't get out till i had been involved for 28 1/2 months!....the person i gave the left handed compliment to had only had to be in there for a year....i don't know why,but a flash of anger came over me....i personally only knew of 2 people that had "programs" like that...mark newton{millers son} and someone that came in the same day as me,tim mantooth...........i just automatically got pissed off at this anon poster on another posting site and threw a left handed compliment at them!....i didn't mean to be an asshole towards them,i just got angry or jelous ,i don't know....i hope if they're browsing around,they read this and forgive me....
since they're anon,i can't send them this myself,so i hope they see this and write me privatly....hippie
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Umm, what about, umm, bashing their children's cars in
:???: :???: :???: :???: :???: :???: :???:
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shut the fuck up all of you all you do is sit on the internet. hot air. go breath on a freezing homeless person.
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How do you suggest we relay this message to folks that have no clue as to the damage created by "tough love" bullshit. Yet they feel strongly justified in hidding behind this thin veil of delusion. How do we vent our rage at the abuses without sounding/looking like lunatics?
A damned good question. For starters, maybe we could stop harping so much on political affiliations tied to the program. Yeah, we know about them. What good is it gonna do to keep throwing that up in ppl's faces all the time? Probably more harm than good if anything. I'm not referring to this holocaust museum thing at all. I'm talking about the 'republican' thing. Now before any of you get yer panties in a twist, I'm not saying that those ties don't exist...I never said that. My point is that it would be better to focus on the abusive aspects of the program(s) and leave it at that. Then we might not sound so much like "kooks" to John Q. Public.
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On 2006-03-03 16:49:00, Woof-a-Doof wrote:
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On 2006-03-03 07:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
"they were living, breathing holocaust victims passing out flyers. they might as well have been hired by the semblers. that protest was dumb as shit. it was a "sammie parade" and was disgusting. i heard her asking "did you see me on montel?"
Ok, thanks for your opinion. I, for one, am up for hearing an alternative to the "protest" idea. Seriously, I would like to hear an effective method of explaining how enraged we are, to a group of people who justify the actions of the Semblers by implying that they were "doing whats right for the kids".
How do you suggest we relay this message to folks that have no clue as to the damage created by "tough love" bullshit. Yet they feel strongly justified in hidding behind this thin veil of delusion. How do we vent our rage at the abuses without sounding/looking like lunatics?
Can we set aside our personalities, our individual disagreements. Could we go beyond our general intolerance of each other and set our sights on a plan of action?
We have our work cut out for us to achieve this (admittedly) lofty ideal. During such time as we find the answers to these questions and many others similar to them, doing nothing just further buries the history/past. We become passivistic and their arrogance only grows and strengthens.
Aside from numbers (there are many of us)a clear, consistant approach is required to obtain and maintan the public or targets interest. Shock and Awe techinques for what they are worth are ok, but the message is forgotten. The eyes will go to the body of the messanger and thier words fall on the wayside.
Yeah, I think alot can and could/should be different in efforts made to educate the public of the Semblers behavior. Perhaps if you were there, you too could have been a contributing factor during the evenings event. But alas, you weren't there, only here to besmirch the efforts of those there.
Perhaps thats a bit harsh, but seriously, what would you suggest, that would improve our efforts. What words of encouragement can you add that will help? "
block traffic, dumbass.
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Starry P--- Not really frustrated. I am doing what I can to have less and less expectations of people, especially when in groups. As a result my frustration level has dropped significantly.
I am not sure which Anon you are making reference to. The Anon I responded to, only repeated a question asked by Sammie; ?i heard her asking "did you see me on montel?"
The other Anon that posted prior to that asked many good questions and seemed genuine. The Holocaust, as an issue, is a most sensitive topic for the Jewish community, but certainly not limited to them. Combine the lack of a clear message; due to its enormity and emotional charge behind the message, the effort is probably less effective.
The fact that the protest takes place surrounding the holocaust museum as an entity is unfortunate. It is also unfortunate to have Mel Sembler in the position he is in. If I had a preference, I would indeed rather approach the protest at a different venue. But that has not been the case thus far. Perhaps that will change, I dunno, will see.
As much as I wish more people had been there, I also am glad our numbers were few. I think that subtlety has a huge impact?although we were less than subtle.
Perhaps a ?Silent? protest could be our next approach?More people, with signs or whatever, but maintaining a ?Respectful Silence?.
People, I think want to hear the story. People, if educated in a calm respectful manner are very receptive to our plight. I think it?s important to understand that although they are receptive to the story and the sensationalistic image they develop in their minds eye, the difficulty would be to penetrate the long-standing ?tough love? mentality. That this fantastic story is coming to them from some punk/thug/druggy and they probably deserved what they went thru. This is a pervasive attitude amongst folks in my parents age bracket. And there were a lot of blue haired old women, one with flamboyant orange hair as well and of course the older/elder men?simply put, it?s a hard sell. A little class goes along way when communicating with some folks.
Hippie---I am not sure I can elaborate more on the Nazi/Straight comparison. Those are not my words and so I cannot lay claim to them. In fact I am not sure that a comparison is necessary. I think that doing so opens up a can of worms that we couldn?t successfully find our way out of. Our story is compelling on its own merits. Our story is complicated enuff as it is, without dragging the holocaust and the Third Reich into it. It to me, sounds like a weak attempt to claim attention to our cause.
Once we explain what happened in Straight, our audience will want to see the correlation tween Straight and the Nazi. Here I suspect we will be floundering because none of us were there to witness it directly. People I think will see thru that and see it for what it is. A poor comparison. Why should we continue to insult their intelligence by drawing this comparison? Especially when we are all experts regarding Straight Inc?as we were their captives. We may know no other story, but we know our story about Straight Inc and what happened to us and to others.
Quite simply, it blurs our story. Perhaps there are comparisons to the Nazi Third Reich and the Holocaust. As I said, I am no expert on the topic. Even if that is the case?Comparing Straight (our story) to the Nazi and the Jewish Holocaust (their story) is most certainly a complicated comparison?and as Eudora mentioned, ?It is an awful lot to put on a poster board.? Simplicity is lost in the comparisons.
Also Hippie---Rather than waiting/hoping the person you replied to in a less than loving manner will stumble across this thread, why not go back to that post in question and explain to them how ya felt?It?s much more direct?just a thought.
The 3rd or 4th Anon whose post began ?since i feel i was asked i will think on this and come up with an answer.................(waiting to be called a sissy fag)?
Incidentally, it?s a shame that you wrote such a powerful post and did so with such hesitancy because you feared an attack from us.
Expecting complete ?unity? from us, as a group is a noble idea and ideals like that are all to often disappointing. You are right in the sense that most of us have never had a place where we could effectively deal with the anger, rage and hostility towards Straight and to what happened to us there. Unfortunately as I mentioned in a pervious post somewhere, we are doing what we were trained to do towards each other. We were not taught ?unity?, we were taught separation and to focus on the differences between us then to harp endlessly on those differences. It would take a lot of work, as a group and as individuals to reach a state where publicly, we can put our disagreements to rest long enuff and be unified in our thoughts and actions.
I am not trying to be fatalistic, but those are realities that we cannot deny. I personally applaud you for your optimistic post and the encouragement you bring to the discussion.
Frank Discussion--- Yeah, I agree. Same as with the Nazi comparisons, it would probably be in our best interest to negate the political component, regarding Straight, at least in the very beginning. The focus again becomes blurred, and attention is taken away from the ?story? and focus comes to the political crap?which in and of itself can go on for ever?leaving our story in the dust.
Anon who suggested that we block traffic at the event. Pughleeze! I am a grown ass man, and fortunately most of us here are also grown ass adults. To simply taunt the cops by blocking traffic, so maybe three cars can read the signs before we would be carted off to jail?that is just plain foolish. It would be at that time the police show up in force and it becomes a ?story?. Think about it?that kinda story is counterproductive, especially at that particular venue, with that particular audience. The spin on that would be footage of one of use being thrown into a wagon a taken to Orient Road.
Meanwhile the News Desk at channels 8,9,10 & 13 or the editors of the Tampa Tribune and the Saint Petersburg Times rake us over the coals and make us look like mindless, thoughtless idiots with the audacity to protest the Holocaust Museum. And that means we lost our focus, so our audience and target miss the point and we followed some inane drone?s idea to block traffic. It?s truly tragic to see someone so unencumbered with insight as to suggest blocking traffic.
Maybe it?s just ?Dark Humor??I hope so. Maybe it?s just a compulsive need to attack at some perceived threat?I hope not.
Saturday morning, yesterday, I saw a Walgreens store beginning it?s construction. There was a rather large sign on the corner, in a conspicuous place, that said something to the effect of ?Another quality build of the Sembler Group?
A simple boycott of Walgreens is only one small attempt at bringing attention to Mel Sembler and his exploits. Walgreens is a commercial endeavor (an unfortunate target some will say) The Holocaust Museum is a humanitarian endeavor (a most unfortunate target to hit Sembler). I would almost betcha that some of those old cronies have money invested in Walgreens and probably most have financial ties to Sembler. The fact that Mel Sembler has intimate ties with the Holocaust Museum is a secondary issue?collateral damage.
Interrupt the financial status quo. It?s another attention getter, then allow knowledge of Sembler?s past discretions (at best) unfurl naturally.
Mel is the target; the jewish community is not.
When I previously said, ?what would you suggest, that would improve our efforts. What words of encouragement can you add that will help?
I was genuinely asking.
Not unlike the Anon who wrote in hesitation in fear of being assaulted with insults. I believe they are written with the expressed intent of hurting someone. Sadly, they are effective. The end result is pain.
I know how to do that, I suspect 100% of us know how to strike and counter strike against each other. I was hoping that there was an outside chance that this idea would not deteriorate into a squabble. I apologize for my involvement into that very same thing?Strike & Counter Strike.
At the heart of it all, I want to say again, publicly, my experience with Straight Inc. I want to say it clearly, respectfully and with as much surgical precision as I am capable of. What was done to us was wrong, and should never have happened, or happened since.
Yet, it still does. Mel Sembler, well, he is the one who gladly takes responsibility for this experiment, this abusive debacle he called/calls ?treatment?. In the name of that ?treatment? he destroyed thousands of lives and families. He exploited the tendency of some to farm out their children to Military School or some other Boarding School?who never had a drug problem to begin with?He endorsed the scare tactic into parents who also had their vulnerability exploited.
But as has been said, that?s a lot to put on a poster board?Perhaps a dedicated web site to Mel Sembler, exclusively to Mel Sembler.
Then the sign only need is one with a dot COM address. But again, simplicity I believe is and will prove to be the key in maintaining public interest.
Thanks for reading this far?I began writing last night but was too pissed off to concentrate (shitty day at work and all) I had hoped much of my agitation would have subsided this morning after sleeping on it. But as I re-read everything?the beast can still be seen?maybe a day of creating will do me some good?maybe a xanax and a hootie whilst creating will do me even more good?let this rest for a while.
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It to me, sounds like a weak attempt to claim attention to our cause.
I agree. I'm not saying to not protest at that event, but you're right about the potential result of drawing comparisons like that. While this sort of comparison might fly with us, it probably ain't gonna fly all that well with the average joe. Most likely, talkin' that stuff will just get ya a :roll:
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From the start you should by now that I'm for violence. I think Melvin and his cronies should all be bludgeoned or at least more highly embarassed. Short of doing that, we all know he will never be behind bars so there is no real way to make him and his actually pay for what he did except by embarassing him. He's a crafty old fuck.
I started this post. I had a really wonderful time speaking to Melvin's son the other day on the phone. His son's number was listed on the internet white pages. By now he's probably changed his number or started screening his calls and the phone conversation did not last that long.
"Hello, I'm looking for Melvin Sembler."
"Umm, you have the wrong..."
"May I speak with Melvin?"
"He's my father (squeaky voice)."
"Oh. (slight pause) May I speak with Betty Sembler?...".
(longer pause and then I could tell the phone was about to be put down).
"...Hey. Didn't Melvin and Betty get in trouble for being pedophiles a long time ago?!?"
"(with whining and shock in his voice) What?"
"At that place called Straight?"
(Click).
My suggestion is to make these things more organized and bite and tear at those things Melvin loves by manipulating them. Why not join the NAACP or the Jewish Religious community, show up in one of those Jewish hats next time you protest. Woof, I will never forget your post about Dion, we had some of the same racial discrimination when I was in Straight. Meet Melvin and the creators of Straight Inc. right on their own turfs and creations. Just like Mike meeting Miller with an outstanding and impenetrable, and embarassing for Newton, land rebuttal against Miller's church thingie.
Be unified.
If Melvin is advocating Holocaust proportions, we are in the right way by stating ours is a holocaust. Hell, I'll starve myself and bring out a blue fucking chair in front of their next protest and let you actually beat me to show what they did to us. That is how serious I take all of this.
If Melvin is coordinated and sick about his efforts, then we should at least look as coordinated. If he has pictures, we should have pictures. If he has attendees who are Jewish, we should look jewish so wear one of those hats (parka?) and join a jewish group or the NAACP of some kind or other affiliated and concerned groups. It takes only one person to become really gay about getting organized and truly matching shit up. If you have two people to get organized and club up, well you got yourself a club. But if you got three and the mode is right, well there's not much you cannot do. And when you protest, three is more than enuff if its going to really strike home.
I have received alot of hell because I believe in meeting violence with violence, but I still think it is the only way to show what happened. Meet organization with synergistic similarity.
At the one and only protest I actually went to I was chastized for speaking at Melvin's grandchildren that their grandfather is a pedophile. When I say pedophile I have created my own definition; meaning anyone who prospers or gains from children by abuse as well as sexually, monetarily, or other. For me, I went beyond making Sembler's donatees more apt to donate more money that very night; I really felt that I had done a real disservice to Sembler by getting to his family by legal means with phone call and letting his close relatives know that he's a child abuser, more than letting the public know. They know.
We are a part of the abuse, we are not above it in my opinion. I am not stating that what I have given as options to reaching any goal that lets the world know him and his are truly worthless and should be put down is empirical or ultimate. I hope that what I have shared, at least some of it, can be put to use.
One way to look organized is to wear the exact same outfits while protesting, same shoes same shirts, same hair in hat, or same organizational club that you should get involved in. This is because might makes right even if it ain't right, a key that Melvin used to squeeze out millions from broken families. If everyone wears a parka and becomes members of some jewish outfit, you are thereby stating that you are truly debunking his child abuse at his own level, one option among those that I have stated.
That's the fear we put in organization. Melvin, I sort of imagine, uses it to help get more money donated. Could we have someone in the Holocaust Museum actually on our side? I know a relative of a friend who is on that board we could speak to, as long as you don't fuck it up and do it my way with caution.
I have a more general idea that violence, once it reaches a really high level, becomes funny and organized. Once you see so much violence you become numb to it, it becomes a joke. Like that movie Sin City -- there's a lot of humor in that movie, and not the one liners though there are alot of good ones in there, but the sheer amount of violence in that film makes it damned near hilarious and unbelievable. There are ways I think to fake that amount of violence and possibly assist in getting Sembler ousted from that office. I think its called propaganda. That's the goal of protesting at that Museum right?
If you had someone close enough to Melvin to call him a pedophile and manage to get a little spittle on the poor sod, well his mood might be caught by those around him who might wake up and smite his penispumpinass. longshot.
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If Melvin is advocating Holocaust proportions, we are in the right way by stating ours is a holocaust. Hell, I'll starve myself and bring out a blue fucking chair in front of their next protest and let you actually beat me to show what they did to us. That is how serious I take all of this.
Yeah, sure we're in the right..but hell why bother with such a risqué comparison? Why not just show people what happened to us and leave it at that? That should be more than enough! And yes, I'm with ya on that blue chair demonstration thing! That's a great idea! You sit in the chair, and I'll beat you, ok? :lol:
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we should look jewish so wear one of those hats (parka?)
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Oi, that would be yamulka, y'goyim! :lol:
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On 2006-03-05 07:32:00, Woof-a-Doof wrote:
Quite simply, it blurs our story. Perhaps there are comparisons to the Nazi Third Reich and the Holocaust. As I said, I am no expert on the topic.
Well, in my view, there's the problem. The topic of the Nazi regime and how it developed into a holocaust is so sensitive, so taboo as to be verbotten to speak of it. In my view, that's the single most effective way to ensure that it does happen again! If you would read up on it and maybe make friends, as best you can, w/ people who have at least some family history involved (living memory is almost entirely gone now, that boat has sailed for all intents and purposes) then you may (or may not, I'd love to know, seriously!) see that it is happening all over again.
The only difference is the imaginary hobgobblin is the insidious, deranged, insane druggiekid or "urban" culture instead of the entire Jewish culture and blood lines. The only reason why that is so, I'm convinced, is because Americans tend to be much more tolerant and respectful of religions and cultures (cause any one you can name or imagine is part of us!) Not saying that there is no bigottry, prejudice or racism, just that it's not accepted--it's something that all but a few dumb red necks try hard to eliminate from our own thinking; we find it offensive in ourselves and in others. But drunks, junkies and social malcontents? They (we?) are fair game, even for those who do these things privately in fear of being discovered. Now THAT is sad! And that's something that occured only very rarely under the Nazis; Jewish people changing their names and dissavowing their faith and culture.
However, again, that's an awful lot to put on a poster board. I agree with you entirely on that; next one should have a better venu. There are plenty around the Bay Area, too. I've always thought it would be a nice idea to make up a whole bunch of little white memorail crosses w/ the names of the fallen and just persistantly make them keep showing up wherever the Sembler, Eckerd and other cronnie names appear. Get people to ask the question "WTF is w/ these crosses that keep turning up?" and then we answer by letters to editors, talk radio, casual conversation, street theatre at Bay Walk, anyone?
And you're dead on correct, sissy fag (well... you said you were waiting! LOL, just kidding, really!), about fun and smiles and good vibes being the wellspring of unity. Moreso that it's something largely beyond our control; we can look for it, hope for it, take chances and trust a little sometimes, but in the end it'll either happen or not.
Here's a great example of demonstration through art: Got to http://fornits.com/anonanon/video/ (http://fornits.com/anonanon/video/) and watch the third one, Bingo. There's a story funny behind this. This play then animation was almost certainly done by someone who was in a program very like Straight. Not only did they not state it explicitly, but some people got all bent out of shape when I and a friend showed it to them. We didn't know anything then about where the influence came from. We were debating that and trying to settle a bet. It was sort of a tragic comedy of errors. But, regardless, it's a great piece of art, in my opinion, that does an extraordinary job of illustrating a certain essance of the Program, under any name, w/o getting all political and controversial and confrontational and such.
That's one of the things that I always hope will somehow come out of this forum project of mine. And, astonishingly enough, sometimes it actually does! But all that angst and paranoia and prescient fear and aprehension, well I think it goes w/ the teritory too. I can't solve it or make it go away for you. Often enough I can't even sort it out for myself. But I dearly hope it'll sort itself out a whole lot more often as we get older and wiser.
I do want to see all of ya'll at that concert. I swear on my good dog's head I won't encourage, or even tolerate, any sort of violence or harassment. I think anybody who has once valid grudges against them, or suspects that they do, and has the nads to show up anyway has earned a degree of respect just by that.
If anyone feels an overwhelming urge to punch someone's lights out or otherwise do violence, I'm confident that they'll walk away, punch a tree or vent by some other means. Why am I so confident? Cause I've been reading and posting to public forums for so damned long and met so many people in person after thinking I knew what to expect based on that; trust me on this or ask around--people are just a whole lot less rash in real life; especially when you're out in the sticks listening to some good music.
The overwhelming majority of people have more than the average (mean) number of legs.
-- E. Grebenik
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Well, in my view, there's the problem. The topic of the Nazi regime and how it developed into a holocaust is so sensitive, so taboo as to be verboten to speak of it.
I wouldn't go that far...we can speak of it all we want to, but why even bother drawing the comparison? Again, aren't the facts themselves enough?
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On 2006-03-05 08:20:00, Frank Discussion wrote:
"If Melvin is advocating Holocaust proportions, we are in the right way by stating ours is a holocaust. Hell, I'll starve myself and bring out a blue fucking chair in front of their next protest and let you actually beat me to show what they did to us. That is how serious I take all of this.
Yeah, sure we're in the right..but hell why bother with such a risqué comparison? Why not just show people what happened to us and leave it at that? That should be more than enough! And yes, I'm with ya on that blue chair demonstration thing! That's a great idea! You sit in the chair, and I'll beat you, ok? :lol: "
It was just an example, but yeah ... okay ... I will do it. I saw that re enactment Ray did for chair and floor restraint. We could re enact that, we could hold a rap right in front of the Holocaust Museum, stage some very realistic looking confrontation and violence to make people wake the fuck up, put a small Straight Inc. sign by our demonstration and hell, you can just beat the holy living fuck out of me. I would like that very much if it proves a point.
There are other things one can do besides protesting in order to get that pedophile ousted from the board.
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You guys are so fucking funny!
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On 2006-03-07 17:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-03-05 08:20:00, Frank Discussion wrote:
"If Melvin is advocating Holocaust proportions, we are in the right way by stating ours is a holocaust. Hell, I'll starve myself and bring out a blue fucking chair in front of their next protest and let you actually beat me to show what they did to us. That is how serious I take all of this.
Yeah, sure we're in the right..but hell why bother with such a risqué comparison? Why not just show people what happened to us and leave it at that? That should be more than enough! And yes, I'm with ya on that blue chair demonstration thing! That's a great idea! You sit in the chair, and I'll beat you, ok? ::nod::
Next year or "Next Event" more people...I see 10-12 people...6 guys, 6 girls with one '5th phaser' one each side. I see this "skit" taking place every half hour.(gives time for media to arrive and something to air that night...it's sad, but a unavoidible truth, violence sells)
During the time of "non-violence", everyone just looks "eyes front", emotionless and expressionless. Perhaps every 10 minutes or so someone would "introduce themselve" and then quiety sit back down. And then at the top and bottom of every hour all hell breaks loose.
Meanwhile back over at the "Information Area", flyers are handed out, conversations are held and explainations about "the group" are offered. The audience/targets will be given the times of "violence"...each take down or what ever event should be different...there were enough reasons for thousands of take downs, I am sure we can come up with several to enact throughout the day.
I think something that would mean an awfull lot to us, sentimentaly (like the "blue chairs") would exscape Joe Q. Public's comprehension. So I guess what I am wondering if alot of attention be paid to the verbal and action aspects of the "skit" rather than things that would be more of an emotional impact for us, than "information" for the audience...
ideas...anyway, there is plenty of time to put our heads together and really do and say something that bring some peace, and perhaps prevent future abuses.
And thats why I wanted to reply to this post, (sorry the ADD thing really makes me go around my ass to get to my elbow most of the time) Point was that I was actually happy to see this kinda cooperation from Anon and Frank Discussion...Not that either are non-cooperative at other times...thats not my point...coulda been anyone. It's just refreshing to see it take place at all. It re-affrims some observations I have made, and restores some fundementals about people in general
Namasate
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That was me...forgot to sign in...Doh!
::jawdrop::
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xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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On 2006-03-03 07:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
"they were living, breathing holocaust victims passing out flyers. they might as well have been hired by the semblers. that protest was dumb as shit. it was a "sammie parade" and was disgusting. i heard her asking "did you see me on montel?"
That is a lie I NEVER MENTIONED MONTEL. I did however mention STRAIGHT Incorporated and the abuse that occured thereIn no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.
--James Madison, U.S. President
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That is a lie I NEVER MENTIONED MONTEL
BULLSHIT!!! :exclaim: :exclaim: :exclaim:
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--Thomas Hodgskin
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Several witnesses have reported you. :flame:
You're gonna stand there and try to tell me that the rest of the group is lying? :lol:
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On 2006-03-09 09:12:00, sammiegirl wrote:
"No its not. And I dare you to prove otherwise. I NEVER MENTIONED MONTEL NOT ONCE!!!! I Know for a fact I didnt.
I said BEATEN STARVED AND RAPED. NOTHING ABOUT MONTEL!!Men had better be without education than be educated by their rulers.
--Thomas Hodgskin
"
Sammie, you're arguing with a fictional character. :roll:
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Sammie, you're arguing with a fictional character. ::hehehmm:: :evil:
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On 2006-03-05 07:32:00, Woof-a-Doof wrote:
"Anon who suggested that we block traffic at the event. Pughleeze! I am a grown ass man, and fortunately most of us here are also grown ass adults. To simply taunt the cops by blocking traffic, so maybe three cars can read the signs before we would be carted off to jail?that is just plain foolish. It would be at that time the police show up in force and it becomes a ?story?. Think about it?that kinda story is counterproductive, especially at that particular venue, with that particular audience. The spin on that would be footage of one of use being thrown into a wagon a taken to Orient Road.
"
not meant as a tactic for the holocaust museum protest. is effective at times and a worthy protest tactic which is why it is done. check out some write ups on the Seattle protests a few years back against the IMF World Bank. many tactics, many groups, many things done at once for different motivations but united against one thing, and it was bloody well effective. props and kudos to all parties. but yeah bloody hell ain't ever gonna be more than a few people at protests, U.S. is too fat and lazy to take up for anything other than football and scratching thy holy balls. rome falls and good riddance. that's an egg on. wink.
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Word!
Doctor Fucktard you helped me get my life back together, got my ass me off the streets and helped me make the disizzhin to stop smokin crack all th time! SIBS helped me reulize that you can't jes ignore it if you gotta problem!
Props to Dr. Fucktard! :tup:
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On 2006-03-05 07:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"From the start you should by now that I'm for violence. I think Melvin and his cronies should all be bludgeoned or at least more highly embarassed. Short of doing that, we all know he will never be behind bars so there is no real way to make him and his actually pay for what he did except by embarassing him. He's a crafty old fuck.
I started this post. I had a really wonderful time speaking to Melvin's son the other day on the phone. His son's number was listed on the internet white pages. By now he's probably changed his number or started screening his calls and the phone conversation did not last that long.
"Hello, I'm looking for Melvin Sembler."
"Umm, you have the wrong..."
"May I speak with Melvin?"
"He's my father (squeaky voice)."
"Oh. (slight pause) May I speak with Betty Sembler?...".
(longer pause and then I could tell the phone was about to be put down).
"...Hey. Didn't Melvin and Betty get in trouble for being pedophiles a long time ago?!?"
"(with whining and shock in his voice) What?"
"At that place called Straight?"
(Click).
My suggestion is to make these things more organized and bite and tear at those things Melvin loves by manipulating them. Why not join the NAACP or the Jewish Religious community, show up in one of those Jewish hats next time you protest. Woof, I will never forget your post about Dion, we had some of the same racial discrimination when I was in Straight. Meet Melvin and the creators of Straight Inc. right on their own turfs and creations. Just like Mike meeting Miller with an outstanding and impenetrable, and embarassing for Newton, land rebuttal against Miller's church thingie.
Be unified.
If Melvin is advocating Holocaust proportions, we are in the right way by stating ours is a holocaust. Hell, I'll starve myself and bring out a blue fucking chair in front of their next protest and let you actually beat me to show what they did to us. That is how serious I take all of this.
If Melvin is coordinated and sick about his efforts, then we should at least look as coordinated. If he has pictures, we should have pictures. If he has attendees who are Jewish, we should look jewish so wear one of those hats (parka?) and join a jewish group or the NAACP of some kind or other affiliated and concerned groups. It takes only one person to become really gay about getting organized and truly matching shit up. If you have two people to get organized and club up, well you got yourself a club. But if you got three and the mode is right, well there's not much you cannot do. And when you protest, three is more than enuff if its going to really strike home.
I have received alot of hell because I believe in meeting violence with violence, but I still think it is the only way to show what happened. Meet organization with synergistic similarity.
At the one and only protest I actually went to I was chastized for speaking at Melvin's grandchildren that their grandfather is a pedophile. When I say pedophile I have created my own definition; meaning anyone who prospers or gains from children by abuse as well as sexually, monetarily, or other. For me, I went beyond making Sembler's donatees more apt to donate more money that very night; I really felt that I had done a real disservice to Sembler by getting to his family by legal means with phone call and letting his close relatives know that he's a child abuser, more than letting the public know. They know.
We are a part of the abuse, we are not above it in my opinion. I am not stating that what I have given as options to reaching any goal that lets the world know him and his are truly worthless and should be put down is empirical or ultimate. I hope that what I have shared, at least some of it, can be put to use.
One way to look organized is to wear the exact same outfits while protesting, same shoes same shirts, same hair in hat, or same organizational club that you should get involved in. This is because might makes right even if it ain't right, a key that Melvin used to squeeze out millions from broken families. If everyone wears a parka and becomes members of some jewish outfit, you are thereby stating that you are truly debunking his child abuse at his own level, one option among those that I have stated.
That's the fear we put in organization. Melvin, I sort of imagine, uses it to help get more money donated. Could we have someone in the Holocaust Museum actually on our side? I know a relative of a friend who is on that board we could speak to, as long as you don't fuck it up and do it my way with caution.
I have a more general idea that violence, once it reaches a really high level, becomes funny and organized. Once you see so much violence you become numb to it, it becomes a joke. Like that movie Sin City -- there's a lot of humor in that movie, and not the one liners though there are alot of good ones in there, but the sheer amount of violence in that film makes it damned near hilarious and unbelievable. There are ways I think to fake that amount of violence and possibly assist in getting Sembler ousted from that office. I think its called propaganda. That's the goal of protesting at that Museum right?
If you had someone close enough to Melvin to call him a pedophile and manage to get a little spittle on the poor sod, well his mood might be caught by those around him who might wake up and smite his penispumpinass. longshot."
ha. i llike it.
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On 2006-03-09 08:33:00, sammiegirl wrote:
"
On 2006-03-03 01:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Call it a breakdown, call it paranoia:
I was watching the Straight Protest videos, the new ones. I hear Sammie saying things like, "you children, you're all vulnerable. No food, no choice, etc..."
While I'm an against everything that Sembler has done, would be a counterproductive measure to actually show people about 'concentration camp-like' behaviors for a Straight holocaust during a Jewish Holocaust Museum event?
I mean, it just kinda seems like maybe a different approach could be done? Umm, what about, umm, bashing their children's cars in or throwing rocks at their house windows? What about passing out flyers to people who do real estate business with Sembler and other businesses of Loebenberg? I don't know what other methods there are out there.
I guess I'm maybe also just wondering if anyone doesn't see the correlation between free advertising of Straight and Jewish "Holocaust". Are we certain that the mental picture people aren't getting is to further fund the Holocaust Museum? That's all I was asking."
If quitting drugs means joining the war on terrorism, does this portend the fire bombing of Amsterdamn ?
--Felton Manifestation
I appreciate your input and respect your feelings. As I stated at the demonstration I said "I am not here to protest the museum or deny the holocaust.. I am here to inform you that MEL et al are the ones who facilitated my torture." I in no way want to disrespect the others who attended but I do want them to know that Mel Sembler was and still is STRAIGHT INCORPORATED and that he profited off the BLOOD of MANY CHILDREN.
If I hurt the feelings of others I apologise. I can not apologise for my actions at the benifit dinner though. It should be the museum who apologises to US[ This Message was edited by: sammiegirl on 2006-03-09 08:44 ]"
No need to apologize Sammie. You did right. The protest in itself is very helpful and they always do the work they need to do. The questions are simple that I put in the original post here.
Have we accomplished ousting Sembler from the board of directors?
What are some other methods we could use to become more organized and sick like his methods?
Have we effectively and flawlessly conveyed to the public who this pedophile, his family, and his friends are and what they did at Straight? Do we strike fear and embarassment to him?
I really doubt you could do more than what you are doing Sammie. The real question is within improving on what we're already doing and what other things that could be done that we have, up to now, considered taboo.
I believe in starting wars for the sake of wars especially against a public child abuser, I believe in fucking the pedophile who fucked in the exact same ways.
Personally I think it is not out of the question to be asking these questions, we are dealing with someone who was and still is out of control about kids. He and his wife need to be stopped in their tracks with the child abuse. Perhaps they would like it if we begin to grind at their family and their jobs and schoolhouses like they did to our families.
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On 2006-03-12 00:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-03-09 08:33:00, sammiegirl wrote:
"
On 2006-03-03 01:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Call it a breakdown, call it paranoia:
I was watching the Straight Protest videos, the new ones. I hear Sammie saying things like, "you children, you're all vulnerable. No food, no choice, etc..."
While I'm an against everything that Sembler has done, would be a counterproductive measure to actually show people about 'concentration camp-like' behaviors for a Straight holocaust during a Jewish Holocaust Museum event?
I mean, it just kinda seems like maybe a different approach could be done? Umm, what about, umm, bashing their children's cars in or throwing rocks at their house windows? What about passing out flyers to people who do real estate business with Sembler and other businesses of Loebenberg? I don't know what other methods there are out there.
I guess I'm maybe also just wondering if anyone doesn't see the correlation between free advertising of Straight and Jewish "Holocaust". Are we certain that the mental picture people aren't getting is to further fund the Holocaust Museum? That's all I was asking."
If quitting drugs means joining the war on terrorism, does this portend the fire bombing of Amsterdamn ?
--Felton Manifestation
I appreciate your input and respect your feelings. As I stated at the demonstration I said "I am not here to protest the museum or deny the holocaust.. I am here to inform you that MEL et al are the ones who facilitated my torture." I in no way want to disrespect the others who attended but I do want them to know that Mel Sembler was and still is STRAIGHT INCORPORATED and that he profited off the BLOOD of MANY CHILDREN.
If I hurt the feelings of others I apologise. I can not apologise for my actions at the benifit dinner though. It should be the museum who apologises to US[ This Message was edited by: sammiegirl on 2006-03-09 08:44 ]"
No need to apologize Sammie. You did right. The protest in itself is very helpful and they always do the work they need to do. The questions are simple that I put in the original post here.
Have we accomplished ousting Sembler from the board of directors?
What are some other methods we could use to become more organized and sick like his methods?
Have we effectively and flawlessly conveyed to the public who this pedophile, his family, and his friends are and what they did at Straight? Do we strike fear and embarassment to him?
I really doubt you could do more than what you are doing Sammie. The real question is within improving on what we're already doing and what other things that could be done that we have, up to now, considered taboo.
I believe in starting wars for the sake of wars especially against a public child abuser, I believe in fucking the pedophile who fucked in the exact same ways.
Personally I think it is not out of the question to be asking these questions, we are dealing with someone who was and still is out of control about kids. He and his wife need to be stopped in their tracks with the child abuse. Perhaps they would like it if we begin to grind at their family and their jobs and schoolhouses like they did to our families."
"MEL et al" ?
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On 2006-03-07 17:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-03-05 08:20:00, Frank Discussion wrote:
"If Melvin is advocating Holocaust proportions, we are in the right way by stating ours is a holocaust. Hell, I'll starve myself and bring out a blue fucking chair in front of their next protest and let you actually beat me to show what they did to us. That is how serious I take all of this.
Yeah, sure we're in the right..but hell why bother with such a risqu?comparison? Why not just show people what happened to us and leave it at that? That should be more than enough! And yes, I'm with ya on that blue chair demonstration thing! That's a great idea! You sit in the chair, and I'll beat you, ok? :lol: "
It was just an example, but yeah ... okay ... I will do it. I saw that re enactment Ray did for chair and floor restraint. We could re enact that, we could hold a rap right in front of the Holocaust Museum, stage some very realistic looking confrontation and violence to make people wake the fuck up, put a small Straight Inc. sign by our demonstration and hell, you can just beat the holy living fuck out of me. I would like that very much if it proves a point.
There are other things one can do besides protesting in order to get that pedophile ousted from the board."
You know,I suggested just THAT,back when they were planning demonstrating at Mel Sembler's house.Re Create a group session,motivation and all,right in front of his house.Nobody thought it was a good idea then,so why should they take your suggestion seriously now?
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On 2006-03-09 09:12:00, sammiegirl wrote:
"No its not. And I dare you to prove otherwise. I NEVER MENTIONED MONTEL NOT ONCE!!!! I Know for a fact I didnt.
I said BEATEN STARVED AND RAPED. NOTHING ABOUT MONTEL!!Men had better be without education than be educated by their rulers.
--Thomas Hodgskin
"
You talk about your beloved "Montel" in your sleep,Honey!
Can I have your autograph?Don't write it,just wipe the paper on your scab infested crotch.
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On 2006-03-04 12:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-03-03 16:49:00, Woof-a-Doof wrote:
"
On 2006-03-03 07:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
"they were living, breathing holocaust victims passing out flyers. they might as well have been hired by the semblers. that protest was dumb as shit. it was a "sammie parade" and was disgusting. i heard her asking "did you see me on montel?"
Ok, thanks for your opinion. I, for one, am up for hearing an alternative to the "protest" idea. Seriously, I would like to hear an effective method of explaining how enraged we are, to a group of people who justify the actions of the Semblers by implying that they were "doing whats right for the kids".
How do you suggest we relay this message to folks that have no clue as to the damage created by "tough love" bullshit. Yet they feel strongly justified in hidding behind this thin veil of delusion. How do we vent our rage at the abuses without sounding/looking like lunatics?
Can we set aside our personalities, our individual disagreements. Could we go beyond our general intolerance of each other and set our sights on a plan of action?
We have our work cut out for us to achieve this (admittedly) lofty ideal. During such time as we find the answers to these questions and many others similar to them, doing nothing just further buries the history/past. We become passivistic and their arrogance only grows and strengthens.
Aside from numbers (there are many of us)a clear, consistant approach is required to obtain and maintan the public or targets interest. Shock and Awe techinques for what they are worth are ok, but the message is forgotten. The eyes will go to the body of the messanger and thier words fall on the wayside.
Yeah, I think alot can and could/should be different in efforts made to educate the public of the Semblers behavior. Perhaps if you were there, you too could have been a contributing factor during the evenings event. But alas, you weren't there, only here to besmirch the efforts of those there.
Perhaps thats a bit harsh, but seriously, what would you suggest, that would improve our efforts. What words of encouragement can you add that will help? "
block traffic, dumbass."
Its kind of difficult to block traffick with 4 PEOPLE!
And anyway,who wants to show up to protest and have to be the 5th wheel,standing next to Mike Sherman the child abuser (whew,did you get a look at THAT guy?Looks like a 7th Day Adventist Recruiter or Jehovah's Witness)or drama queen Sammie "Did You See Me On Montel" Monroe.I mean REALLY,no wonder nobody else shows up at these things.
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Perhaps they would like it if we begin to grind at their family and their jobs and schoolhouses like they did to our families.
:tup: :tup: :tup: