Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on February 28, 2006, 07:06:00 PM
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I was disappointed in Maia's book Help At Any Cost.
It seemed to me to be the same old people telling the same old stories.
Don't get in a huff because of my opinion, because that is what it is, my opinion.
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Well, I think that a great majority of testimony from these schools is going to be similar, since most of the kids were all treated the same way: badly.
But I'm assuming you are talking about specific testimony from specific individuals. I'm assuming that Maia chose to focus on the cases that were brought to trial, which will most likely be the ones we have all heard about and will be higher profile, as opposed to everyone else who corroborated these experiences. She mentions in her book that she interviewed and spoke with many many survivors, and that the deaths which happened at these places were much more numerous than the ones she specifically chose to focus on. She can't exactly include everyone. That book would be massive.
I can only speculate on what her choices were for telling the stories of certain people, though, and my guess would be that she chose the high-profile ones that went to court.
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On 2006-02-28 16:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I was disappointed in Maia's book Help At Any Cost.
It seemed to me to be the same old people telling the same old stories.
Don't get in a huff because of my opinion, because that is what it is, my opinion.
"
To us, yes. But to the majority of the marketplace, these will be new stories, and equally horrifying.
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Point well made....but...could be taken that the problems or incidences are more isolated than they are.
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Perhaps you are familiar with the stories b/c you've been involved with the industry for a long while.
Keep in mind, Most American's have never heard Any of these stories. Try and read it from the perspective of someone just discovering all this - from the perspective of the parent of a troubled teen, considering their options.
As for the well known stories - I too am familiar with most of them. Even so, in every case I learned something - and in some cases there were many details I had never known before. I felt Maia did a most excellent job of telling these heart breaking stories.
There are many other stories that could be told. Maia says as much. But a book has to be of a manageable length. To hefty, and people won't want to try and read it. It would appear to daunting. She had to pick and choose. I feel she did a very good job of picking the accounts that best illustrate the problems found in this industry; as well as, explaining how to make a good valid and helpful decision for any teen who might be having problems.
I was pleased she made mention of the difficulties facing families with mentally ill children. She has a good grasp on the issue - and the mentally ill desperately need knowledgeable advocates.
What is it you were hoping for?
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I think Shouting at the Sky and What it Takes to Get Me Through are much more compelling to someone looking for a program to help their teen.
Her book DOES concern a few isolated incidents, that's why it will be taken that way.
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I don't see it so much as the telling of isolated cases - as the telling of individual accounts that illustrate an overwhelming problem.
She may have focused on Aaron Bacon for example - but it was clear he was by no means the only such death.
And the situation with Straight & KIDs - I think it was clear that what Lulu and Bradbury experienced was the common experience of countless other kids.
Do you not think so?
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I was hoping to hear from the multitudes. We keep hearing that the problem is systemic and I was hoping to hear from the masses. If the problem is widespread, then it would have beneficial to tell it that way. Instead, it was the same people telling the same story and claming the problems are prevalent.
I know that only so much can be covered in a book...however, if we had evidence, in this case others that we have not heard from speaking out, then maybe it would be a start or another resource that supports the idea that the abuse happens to everyone in one of these programs instead of just the few. I think most people will believe that what happened to Lulu was horrific but I don't think they will walk away thinking all of the kids in the program are or were abused.
I think people will pick up the book and read the two or three stories in it and go "oh my gosh how horrible". That is it, no more, no less. I don't think they will walk away with an understanding of how widespread the problem is.
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agreed.. well said.
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///I was hoping to hear from the multitudes.///
Ahhh - But thats what Fornits is for! :wink:
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Wrong again....we don't know that there are multitudes posting on Fornits...to know there are multitudes we would need to know names, real people...not anon and not made up identities....
It takes people standing up and speaking for themselves, it takes the testimonies of real people.
I am not putting fornits down, I am saying it is going to take standing up and being counted to make the impact that the problem is systemic.
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"Help at any Cost" serves exactly the purpose it should serve. Why get down on anyone or anything that is serving your cause? Wake up! It is parents, not survivors, that need to be reached - we are the ones in panic decision mode, we are the ones , making these placement decisions, these "therapeutic" decisions, and, and WE NEED INFORMATION!. We need someone other than an "educational consultant" to turn to. I have already made the mistake with my son - I made a very bad choice, a choice based upon the information I had at hand. I hired a "professional" ( I now know that ed cons are really not professionals at all by other standards). I read, I googled, but now I know, I needed to google all the way to the bitter end. I did my due diligence in the best way I knew how, and it was not nearly enough. I only wish this book had been available to me two years ago. It explains this teen rehab industry fully, in a way, perhaps, that parents only can understand. And if I had read but one chapter of this book two years ago, if just one website like this, or isaccorp, had popped up, in my initial searches, my decision would have been so different, and my son would have never been abused.
I understand fully that as survivors you are in rage and in pain. But the best and only way to effect change for other kids, is to reach parents. You have your stories and they are more than valid - my son has his story, and it is an injury to our entire family. The cause at hand is to educate parents on a national basis - in doing that, other kids will be protected. I have financial resources, I have connections to the mainstream media, and I have cause to act. Get together; take action. There are parents there, like me, ready to take on the cause. My reasonmay be selfish....this is for Sam...but it is also for you.
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///I am saying it is going to take standing up and being counted to make the impact that the problem is systemic. ///
Then why are you posting from under a bag?
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Personally I thought the book was great ... just was surprised she didn't have a list of the known deaths (from restraint, seclusion, suicide, dehydration, etc) to give people a better idea of just how many lives have been lost. The info on Straights and Kids was very thorough. Thought she could have done a better job on WWASPS with more up to date cases and focus on TB which in spite of years of allegations of abuse is still operating. Also thought her recommendations for alternatives was excellent. It's an important book and I think as she makes the talk show and radio circuit, the word will spread.
FYI ... Maia will be appearing on the Rachel Maddow show on Air America tomorrow morning at around 8:30am Eastern to discuss tough love programs, their political connections and the recent death of a 14-year-old boy in a boot camp.
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There's a list of deaths at http://www.caica.org (http://www.caica.org) (here's the link):
http://www.caica.org/NEWS%20Deaths%20Main.htm (http://www.caica.org/NEWS%20Deaths%20Main.htm)
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I think Maia's book is well-written. It bothers me to see people here criticizing it. Perhaps you don't know how hard it is to write a book and then to have it published and all it takes to promote it. She shares stories that need to be heard, stories that I believe will make people think. The important thing is getting it out there so people will read it.
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On 2006-02-28 20:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
FYI ... Maia will be appearing on the Rachel Maddow show on Air America tomorrow morning at around 8:30am Eastern to discuss tough love programs, their political connections and the recent death of a 14-year-old boy in a boot camp.
Damn, I missed it. Now I have to pay $1.95 for a day pass.
I loved the book too. What I like so well about it is how she tells the ever important and too often neglected back story.
She employs mainly 4 stories to illustrate a few typical scenareos within the industry. Then she goes on to show how they all go back to Synanon, how their marketing is just the same and just as bogus (talk about the long con!) and how the entire industry is based on the tragic myths about kids ta' day. Now that's a difficult task to tackle. People cling so hard to their illusions, even the horrible ones about their own kids. But I think it's one of the more important aspects of the story.
Kids ta' day are better behaved, more responsible, more respectful and just overall better citizens than we were. Even if they were half as horrible as the Toughlove Hategroup makes them out to be, the troubled parent industry does not offer help, only punishment and forced compliance.
Our country right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right.
--Carl Schurz, German-born U.S. general and U.S. senator
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On 2006-02-28 18:58:00, concernedparent wrote:
""Help at any Cost" serves exactly the purpose it should serve. Why get down on anyone or anything that is serving your cause? Wake up! It is parents, not survivors, that need to be reached - we are the ones in panic decision mode, we are the ones , making these placement decisions, these "therapeutic" decisions, and, and WE NEED INFORMATION!. We need someone other than an "educational consultant" to turn to. I have already made the mistake with my son - I made a very bad choice, a choice based upon the information I had at hand. I hired a "professional" ( I now know that ed cons are really not professionals at all by other standards). I read, I googled, but now I know, I needed to google all the way to the bitter end. I did my due diligence in the best way I knew how, and it was not nearly enough. I only wish this book had been available to me two years ago. It explains this teen rehab industry fully, in a way, perhaps, that parents only can understand. And if I had read but one chapter of this book two years ago, if just one website like this, or isaccorp, had popped up, in my initial searches, my decision would have been so different, and my son would have never been abused.
I understand fully that as survivors you are in rage and in pain. But the best and only way to effect change for other kids, is to reach parents. You have your stories and they are more than valid - my son has his story, and it is an injury to our entire family. The cause at hand is to educate parents on a national basis - in doing that, other kids will be protected. I have financial resources, I have connections to the mainstream media, and I have cause to act. Get together; take action. There are parents there, like me, ready to take on the cause. My reasonmay be selfish....this is for Sam...but it is also for you."
I couldn't agree more. It's unfortunate that there aren't always answers for those of us that have been through these programs. It's really fucked up that we have to navigate our lives without the compasses and maps that everyone else seems to have for their well-established paths through life. It flat out fucking sucks that we have to go through all of this, but I think it's even more important that we make sure that these atrocities be stopped so that NOBODY ELSE HAS TO GO THROUGH THIS!
For that purpose, I think the book accomplishes what it needs to. It's almost all new information to those unfamiliar with the industry. I think that the in depth stories of the worst of these cases are what makes it real to the reader. I think it has more impact than a large multitude of accounts of systemic abuse. I think that the focus on the specific cases, those which highlight the ultimate results of these systems, is the best way to get the point across to prospective paretns, concerned friends/family, doctors, lawyers, shrinks, etc.
Maybe I'm wrong but I think that the reasoning behind the way the book was written had more to do with the target audience being those I just mentioned.
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On 2006-03-01 08:28:00, Eudora wrote:
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On 2006-02-28 20:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
FYI ... Maia will be appearing on the Rachel Maddow show on Air America tomorrow morning at around 8:30am Eastern to discuss tough love programs, their political connections and the recent death of a 14-year-old boy in a boot camp.
Damn, I missed it. Now I have to pay $1.95 for a day pass.
I loved the book too. What I like so well about it is how she tells the ever important and too often neglected back story.
She employs mainly 4 stories to illustrate a few typical scenareos within the industry. Then she goes on to show how they all go back to Synanon, how their marketing is just the same and just as bogus (talk about the long con!) and how the entire industry is based on the tragic myths about kids ta' day. Now that's a difficult task to tackle. People cling so hard to their illusions, even the horrible ones about their own kids. But I think it's one of the more important aspects of the story.
Kids ta' day are better behaved, more responsible, more respectful and just overall better citizens than we were. Even if they were half as horrible as the Toughlove Hategroup makes them out to be, the troubled parent industry does not offer help, only punishment and forced compliance.
Our country right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right.
--Carl Schurz, German-born U.S. general and U.S. senator
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I loved the book too. Maia has amazing insight. What shocked me was how much the Mormons are involved in these places.
My friend who is studying to become a teacher had some really good insight on "kids ta' day" and why so many of them are unjustifiably incarcerated. He said "parents are less involved yet have higher expectations." which I think is exactly right.
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Come to think of it, she tells each of those selected stories better than most. Long as I've known Rich, I never did quite put it together what Community Improvement Foundation really was. Smart dude, that Rich! And she tells the Aaron Bacon story in the style of an investigative journalist (which, unlike me or you or most of us) she actually is. She interviewed the people around the subject, found out what they thought, read through all of the court documents and news accounts. She really explained well how these unbelievable events can happen, what motivates the people involved to do what they do.
That's another really hard nut to crack. Can you imagine, for example, a guy like Mel Riddile being in charge of a program like Straight, Inc.? How could a guy like that go along with things like coerced sexual confessions in group confrontation settings? Well, he did. Daily. He was in charge of Straight, Springfield for a number of years. And while, by all accounts he never was the sadistic monster Virgil Newton is and the program was less horrible in some ways when Mel was in charge, he did indeed enforce extremely damaging program policy on a lot of kids.
Why? Cult experts call it "sacred doctrine". To the people involved, it's just like administering surgery or chemo or some other highly traumatic medical intervention. The difference is that, despite their strongly held beliefs, these treatments are not helpful and the supposedly troubled patients are mostly not disordered to begin with.
They believe absurdities and so they commit atrocities. The legislature is to society as a physician is to the patient. If a physician ignored side effects of medications like today's legislators ignore the side effects of their legislation, the physician would be accused of malpractice. I accuse today's legislators (with rare exception) of legislative malpractice. Many of the ills that are so obvious in our society are a direct result of previous legislation. Their solution? More laws!
-- John A. Bennett, DO
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Everybody is entitled to their own opinion. Some may like it and some may not. That is what makes this place in which we live so great.
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On 2006-03-01 16:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Everybody is entitled to their own opinion. Some may like it and some may not. That is what makes this place in which we live so great."
Damn straight.
However, opinions do not supercede facts, and everyone is not entitled to their own 'truth'.
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A couple of years ago, I might have had a tough time believing the things I read in Maia?s book. But that was before receiving the call that would forever change my life. The call came from a boy who I dearly loved, who had lived with us as a teen, and who was abducted from our home in the middle of the night by a teen ?escort? service hired by his parents. He would spend the next two years of his life in another country far from home where he suffered serious forms of abuse, where he witnessed abuse, and where he was forced to commit acts of abuse to others.
It was three years later that I got his call, pleading for my help to rescue his sisters who, too, had been abducted and who were taken thousands of miles from home to WWASP programs. I learned very quickly that what Maia has written in the pages of her book is real and that many of the tactics that were used back in the 80?s in Straight, Inc., in KIDS, in the Seed, are still used today. It is disturbing and the story needs to be told.
I remember when I first learned about this industry I would shutter to think ?how could this be happening here in the US.? The more research I did, the clearer it became how this industry has evolved to what it is today.
The fact that it has gone on since the 80?s, that it is thriving, and that it has become a billion dollar a year industry is very disturbing. Seemingly plenty of lawmakers and government officials know about the abuse and neglect suffered by so many. Yet it continues to thrive. So many believe the kids incarcerated into these programs are druggies, they have a lot to learn. I've been told by dozens of survivors that most children in these programs are far from druggies, far from alcoholics, far from sex fiends. Most of them are children who have been abused, who have been adopted, who come from broken homes, who have ADHD, ODD (oppositional defiance disorder), eating disorders, and a myriad of other conditions. They are children who need help from trained professionals, not children who need "tough love". Not children who need to lose their rights, not children who need to be abused. What are these programs teaching these children? What are they doing to their families?
The programs tout that they build families up yet I have personally heard from dozens of families who claim their families have been broken down as a result of their involvement with them. Maia?s book helps bring that point across.
Program owners claim the children are the liars, the manipulators, and they convince the parents that this is true. Yet they encourage parents to lie to their children and to deceive them. They encourage parents to have their children abducted and taken against their will. Don?t they see that when parents do this they become the liars and the manipulators? Don?t they care? Don?t they realize this very act alone can break a bond between a parent and a child? The very act of hiring someone to abduct a child is unforgivable and unforgettable.
They don?t care because they are motivated by one thing ? money. Each child that comes into the program brings in between $40,000 to $100,000 a year, depending on the program.
What would you call a mother who deceives her 17-year old daughter, a daughter who, by the way, is a straight A student who has never tried drugs, never drank alcohol, has never had sex, by telling her that she is taking her to lunch when in reality she has hired an ?escort? service to abduct her? What would you call a mother who jumps out of the car, watching as these strangers jump into the passenger seat, as they handcuff her daughter who cries out for help, but who lets them take her away, right before her eyes? What would you call a mother who has her taken thousands of miles from home to be incarcerated, taken her from her friends, her siblings, her school, her life, to live in a place where she will lose all of her basic human rights? A liar, a manipulator? This happened to a girl I know personally, and it happens to many other children.
The things Maia has shared in her book could seem unbelievable, but they are very true. I believe the majority of the population has no idea about the truth of the ?tough love? industry. And I believe it is our job, those who do know, to spread the word, to support one another, and to not criticize each other?s efforts.
I want to say thank you to Maia for the time she has taken to research the industry, to travel long distances to interview key players, to sit through what had to have been a heart-wrenching trial (Lulu?s), to interview parents and survivors, and then to take on the incredible task of putting it all down on paper. It?s no easy task writing a book, getting it published, and then getting it out there so people will read it.
Survivors have talked about their experiences in Tranquility Bay, about how they and others have been forced to lie on their faces in OP (observation placement) for days, weeks, and even months. I think about how these children must hope beyond all hope that we, the adults who know what is going on, will come to their rescue. I believe it is our job to try.
In my opinion, anyone who is concerned about this industry and who wants to get the word out to the general public, to lawmakers, to social workers, to educators, to mental health professionals, should all be promoting this book. I challenge each and every one of you to purchase an extra copy to give to your local public library. People need to read this. I have never met Maia, and I have no personal thing to gain if Maia?s book becomes a best-seller. The ones who have something to gain, in my opinion, are the children who might be spared from becoming a victim because someone read this book.
What I think some of you are missing is that we know this industry inside and out, we know most of the stories told in the book, so it?s not news to us (though I do have to admit that I am learning some new things about the history of the industry by reading Maia?s book).
Parents who are on the verge of sending a child away might not if they were to read this book. A judge about to sentence a child to one of these facilities might change his mind if he reads this book. Educators who once promoted sending kids away might think twice if they read this book. Mental health professionals may reconsider their recommendations that parents place their kids in programs away from home and their own communities.
Those people, the ones who know nothing about his industry, like I knew nothing until a year and a half ago, will find this book very shocking and incredibly informative.
If I was a parent of a troubled teen and I read this book, there is no way I would even consider sending my child to any program away from home. It is my hope that other parents will feel the same and will seek alternative solutions for their teens and for their families.
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Glad to have you on board, MomCat!
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Any publicity bringing awareness to institutionalized child abuse is helpful. However, I do agree that the book does not leave the common reader with a "we need to do something to stop this" mentality. I'd like to see a compilation of survivor stories published: maybe give each contributor 1-5 pages to write about a specific experience or two. Imagine 50 different personal stories, some with parallel themes but each still describing a one-of-a-kind, personalized walk through a living nightmare. It would be very powerful.
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A compilation may not have the results you'd like. Middle America would just look at those and dismiss them as "disgruntled former patients". That's usually what happens when those of us who have been through these places try to tell our stories. We're written off as drug abusers who lie and manipulate. That's why I see Maia's book as a great introduction to John and Jane Q. Public of the industry as a whole. She ties those 4 programs together beautifully and, IMO, presents it to readers along with some explanation as to why there hasn't been an uproar about what's happened and why parents continue to turn to the programs. It may not tell the entire story, but I don't think any one book can. It's another piece of the puzzle, just like Fornits or FICA or NoSpank. If it gets people interested in what's going on then maybe they'll do a little Googling themselves and put the whole thing together.
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I think that the most important thing Maia's book does is contextualize the problem. No more can people think of these as isolated incidents of abuse, but more as a systemic problem, how that problem developed, who is behind it, and why.
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On 2006-03-02 11:20:00, Angel Lux wrote:
"Any publicity bringing awareness to institutionalized child abuse is helpful. However, I do agree that the book does not leave the common reader with a "we need to do something to stop this" mentality. I'd like to see a compilation of survivor stories published: maybe give each contributor 1-5 pages to write about a specific experience or two. Imagine 50 different personal stories, some with parallel themes but each still describing a one-of-a-kind, personalized walk through a living nightmare. It would be very powerful."
Interesting idea.
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50 stories?...How about 500...hell...Ginger could probably get that many just by cutting and pasting off of fornits...it could be done in a way that shows the similarities between each program...for example...the "lifeboat exercise"...it sure sounds like that happened in many different schools. I could go on and on about particular exercises...but really...we could make a book thicker than the DSM-IV
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On 2006-03-02 17:26:00, OKB4RMA wrote:
"50 stories?...How about 500...hell...Ginger could probably get that many just by cutting and pasting off of fornits...it could be done in a way that shows the similarities between each program...for example...the "lifeboat exercise"...it sure sounds like that happened in many different schools. I could go on and on about particular exercises...but really...we could make a book thicker than the DSM-IV"
Has anyone read that book by Alexia Parks? "An American Gulag" is the title. I think that that's what it is, a collection of accounts from various programs. Anybody know more about it than that? I'm still waiting for my order to be delivered, so if I don't hear anything, I'll post about it when I get a chance to read it.
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I've read it. My daughter has it now. Its not so much a collection of stories as this woman's account of her niece disappearing into (if I recall correctly) Victory Christian Academy; and the author's attempts to get her released.
I could be mistaken about the program - but if it wasn't that one - it was one much like it. [ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2006-03-02 18:04 ]
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"but really...we could make a book thicker than the DSM-IV"
And one or two of the accounts might even be true!
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It seems like there are some mixed feelings out there about the idea. The book would have to be totally on a volunteer basis, ofcourse. We'd also need permission from the authors for any stories taken off the net. I'd hate to violate anyones trust here.
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I have wondered about that very issue.
It can be so difficult to contact many of the kids who post on the forums - and yet their posts are often profound.
Can they be considered public domain as a result of being on the internet?
Or to use them in a book would you have to have written permission?
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On 2006-03-02 17:40:00, Goodtobefree wrote:
Has anyone read that book by Alexia Parks? "An American Gulag" is the title. I think that that's what it is, a collection of accounts from various programs. Anybody know more about it than that? I'm still waiting for my order to be delivered, so if I don't hear anything, I'll post about it when I get a chance to read it.
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Yes, I read it. It's primarily one woman's story about trying to rescue her niece from I think it was a Rolloff school, but I'd have to check.
It's an entirely different kind of book, one of another of the thousand voices it's taking to tell this one story. I'm all for it. I highly recomend it. I cried when I read it because it proved to me that aunts like that can really exist.
And he'll have been through the seminars, so after he finds some adjectives for his magical child and does a rockstar dance, he'll become "real" just like the Velveteen Rabbit.
Anonymous
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OKB4RMA 2006-03-02 17:26:00
50 stories?...How about 500...hell...Ginger could probably get that many just by cutting and pasting off of fornits
Whoah! Hold up. No I can't. I've been passing myself on the stairs here lately. This is the first I've read this thread in a couple of days. I do think it's a fantastic idea, though. And anyone can do it. Anything on here is just as much fair game for you to arrange and present as it is for me. Just as long as you reasonably well label it, you don't misrepresent what it is, that's sort of conventional cortesey.
On 2006-03-03 10:23:00, Angel Lux wrote:
"It seems like there are some mixed feelings out there about the idea. The book would have to be totally on a volunteer basis, ofcourse. We'd also need permission from the authors for any stories taken off the net. I'd hate to violate anyones trust here."
Well, not only anyone's trust here, but I think some copyright laws and certainly it would tax the reader's credulity and sympathy. It depends on a lot of subtle things. You can say any true thing about someone who gets paid to run these programs. But you'll get more and better attention if you stick to things relavent to the way they run the programs.
But you can ask for permission, pay apropriate royalties and such and do the work of putting together a book. I think it'll get read if you do a good job of it.
Here's one that comes to mind.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/custom ... s.start=11 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0963975439/ref=cm_rev_next/104-2473232-6992744?%5Fencoding=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=283155&s=books&customer-reviews.start=11)
I never have seen a copy of it, but I remember it being very well received at the time. But there's a lot written about it and how it evolved. I could swear there was a chapter on Straight, too. But you could learn a lot from understanding how that project went, what it took to make it happen, where they made misakes, what the critics and supporters alike have said.
The most important bill in our whole code is that for the diffusion of
knowledge among the people. No other sure foundation can be devised, for the preservation of freedom and happiness.
--Thomas Jefferson
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I got my book last night, after I returned from my weekend trip to Tahoe. I've read 20 pages or so, so far. I was a little tired when I read it, so I may need to re-read it! I am enjoying it though.
It does make you realize that something really does need to be done.
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People whose stories get used as part of a compilation in a book rarely get royalties. Those go to the author or, if the book is put together all from people's stories, an editor.
If people write down their own stories, and those stories don't need a lot of editing to be publishable, market rate for short stories is a one-time payment of cents per word. I think the last pieces I did like that I did for about a nickle a word. What you're usually selling the person putting together the book is first (North American) publication rights to your piece, and unlimited rights to reprint, and perhaps (or perhaps not) non-exclusive rights for them to use other places, with you retaining the rest of the rights. What that means is that if someone offered you money to reprint, you could take it, or you could reprint it freely as part of your own later work, or an international work, or yet another publication--except you'd be selling them the right to reprint it, non-exclusively, in whatever they were doing. You'd also get a lot less money for letting someone do a non-exclusive reprint.
Since the short pieces I did were works in some other author's universe specifically for a role playing game manual, I sold all rights, not just first publication. Again, for about a nickle a word, since I'm a pro. It's not uncommon for the rate for non-pros to be 3.5 cents a word.
People who don't write down their own stories, or whose writing requires substantial editing and/or rewriting to be publication quality, usually have their story included by permission and for no pay.
The exception would be that big money publications might pay celebrities for an interview.
Joe guy with an experience, when someone else is writing, substantially rewriting, or correcting loads of spelling and grammar errors, usually gives permission or doesn't get included. Frequently, Joe gives permission and doesn't get paid even if he does write up his own experience or doesn't get included.
Usually, if too many of the people volunteering their experiences want money, the book just doesn't get written/published.
Professional-quality writers or editors don't give their time for free or for pennies, we don't get paid a whole lot anyway, and if a whole bunch of people decide their stories are worth a lot of money, it cuts into that already low pay too much.
Writers who aren't professional quality generally can't get a real publisher with one of the national distributors to buy their book at any price. It costs too much to print a book, and most first books by an author or editor lose money for the publisher.
For example, Baen Books (my publisher) is distributed by Simon and Schuster, which means Baen's monthly book releases go to all the major book chains just like the rest of the stuff S&S distributes.
If you're a publisher, when you take on a new author, if you take virgin authors at all (a lot of publishers don't, or only take them rarely), you want to be pretty sure that author has more than one book in them.
A lot of publishers don't accept unagented submissions, and a lot of agents don't want to hear from you if you aren't already published.
If an author or editor doesn't sell the book to a publisher, they don't get paid. If they don't get paid (and most people who write books don't succeed at selling them), they certainly can't afford to pay people whose personal accounts may be included.
It's the simple economics of the business. If getting your personal account out there isn't its own reward for you, it's unlikely to happen.
If you're a professional quality writer, you can maybe sell articles about your various personal experiences to magazines, but that's a very competitive market and most of the time that's not going to happen, either. Even if you're a pro targetting the magazine market, you're going to have a lot more articles or queries rejected than you have accepted.
Professional quality writers usually have far more publishable ideas than they have time to write them. This means that any book for which other people want a cut is rarely worth their time.
Julie
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A couple of years ago, I might have had a tough time believing the things I read in Maia?s book. But that was before receiving the call that would forever change my life. The call came from a boy who I dearly loved, who had lived with us as a teen, and who was abducted from our home in the middle of the night by a teen ?escort? service hired by his parents. He would spend the next two years of his life in another country far from home where he suffered serious forms of abuse, where he witnessed abuse, and where he was forced to commit acts of abuse to others.
It was three years later that I got his call, pleading for my help to rescue his sisters who, too, had been abducted and who were taken thousands of miles from home to WWASP programs. I learned very quickly that what Maia has written in the pages of her book is real and that many of the tactics that were used back in the 80?s in Straight, Inc., in KIDS, in the Seed, are still used today. It is disturbing and the story needs to be told.
I remember when I first learned about this industry I would shutter to think ?how could this be happening here in the US.? The more research I did, the clearer it became how this industry has evolved to what it is today.
The fact that it has gone on since the 80?s, that it is thriving, and that it has become a billion dollar a year industry is very disturbing. Seemingly plenty of lawmakers and government officials know about the abuse and neglect suffered by so many. Yet it continues to thrive. So many believe the kids incarcerated into these programs are druggies, they have a lot to learn. I've been told by dozens of survivors that most children in these programs are far from druggies, far from alcoholics, far from sex fiends. Most of them are children who have been abused, who have been adopted, who come from broken homes, who have ADHD, ODD (oppositional defiance disorder), eating disorders, and a myriad of other conditions. They are children who need help from trained professionals, not children who need "tough love". Not children who need to lose their rights, not children who need to be abused. What are these programs teaching these children? What are they doing to their families?
The programs tout that they build families up yet I have personally heard from dozens of families who claim their families have been broken down as a result of their involvement with them. Maia?s book helps bring that point across.
Program owners claim the children are the liars, the manipulators, and they convince the parents that this is true. Yet they encourage parents to lie to their children and to deceive them. They encourage parents to have their children abducted and taken against their will. Don?t they see that when parents do this they become the liars and the manipulators? Don?t they care? Don?t they realize this very act alone can break a bond between a parent and a child? The very act of hiring someone to abduct a child is unforgivable and unforgettable.
They don?t care because they are motivated by one thing ? money. Each child that comes into the program brings in between $40,000 to $100,000 a year, depending on the program.
What would you call a mother who deceives her 17-year old daughter, a daughter who, by the way, is a straight A student who has never tried drugs, never drank alcohol, has never had sex, by telling her that she is taking her to lunch when in reality she has hired an ?escort? service to abduct her? What would you call a mother who jumps out of the car, watching as these strangers jump into the passenger seat, as they handcuff her daughter who cries out for help, but who lets them take her away, right before her eyes? What would you call a mother who has her taken thousands of miles from home to be incarcerated, taken her from her friends, her siblings, her school, her life, to live in a place where she will lose all of her basic human rights? A liar, a manipulator? This happened to a girl I know personally, and it happens to many other children.
The things Maia has shared in her book could seem unbelievable, but they are very true. I believe the majority of the population has no idea about the truth of the ?tough love? industry. And I believe it is our job, those who do know, to spread the word, to support one another, and to not criticize each other?s efforts.
I want to say thank you to Maia for the time she has taken to research the industry, to travel long distances to interview key players, to sit through what had to have been a heart-wrenching trial (Lulu?s), to interview parents and survivors, and then to take on the incredible task of putting it all down on paper. It?s no easy task writing a book, getting it published, and then getting it out there so people will read it.
Survivors have talked about their experiences in Tranquility Bay, about how they and others have been forced to lie on their faces in OP (observation placement) for days, weeks, and even months. I think about how these children must hope beyond all hope that we, the adults who know what is going on, will come to their rescue. I believe it is our job to try.
In my opinion, anyone who is concerned about this industry and who wants to get the word out to the general public, to lawmakers, to social workers, to educators, to mental health professionals, should all be promoting this book. I challenge each and every one of you to purchase an extra copy to give to your local public library. People need to read this. I have never met Maia, and I have no personal thing to gain if Maia?s book becomes a best-seller. The ones who have something to gain, in my opinion, are the children who might be spared from becoming a victim because someone read this book.
What I think some of you are missing is that we know this industry inside and out, we know most of the stories told in the book, so it?s not news to us (though I do have to admit that I am learning some new things about the history of the industry by reading Maia?s book).
Parents who are on the verge of sending a child away might not if they were to read this book. A judge about to sentence a child to one of these facilities might change his mind if he reads this book. Educators who once promoted sending kids away might think twice if they read this book. Mental health professionals may reconsider their recommendations that parents place their kids in programs away from home and their own communities.
Those people, the ones who know nothing about his industry, like I knew nothing until a year and a half ago, will find this book very shocking and incredibly informative.
If I was a parent of a troubled teen and I read this book, there is no way I would even consider sending my child to any program away from home. It is my hope that other parents will feel the same and will seek alternative solutions for their teens and for their families.
Who is this boy, anybody know? And his sisters, the whole family sent to WWASPS programs?
Are they part of the Turley lawsuit?
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50 stories?...How about 500...hell...Ginger could probably get that many just by cutting and pasting off of fornits...it could be done in a way that shows the similarities between each program...for example...the "lifeboat exercise"...it sure sounds like that happened in many different schools. I could go on and on about particular exercises...but really...we could make a book thicker than the DSM-IV
I have been wondering about that...a list of particular similarities, such as getting motivated.. and what the group motivations are and how the new individuals are likeley to respond the nuts and bolts so to speak. any body?
I don't think too many people are watching this post but i'm here...
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And if a book like that were assembled, who would read it?
We can all revel in our victimhood together, but it does very little to stop new kids from ending with the same fate.
I think we should call the book the "never ending story."
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I think we need to get Larry Flynt involved in making the public aware of these places. The man is a true hero, fighting for real American values, hell, he took a bullet for free speech. Not many people can say that.
You may not want to believe it, but Hustler has some of the best-written and well-researched political and social articles available in mass market form.
I think the guy wouldd be interested in telling our story, if only to get some more dirt on the Republicans behinfd Straight.
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I was hoping to hear from the multitudes. We keep hearing that the problem is systemic and I was hoping to hear from the masses. If the problem is widespread, then it would have beneficial to tell it that way. Instead, it was the same people telling the same story and claming the problems are prevalent.
I know that only so much can be covered in a book...however, if we had evidence, in this case others that we have not heard from speaking out, then maybe it would be a start or another resource that supports the idea that the abuse happens to everyone in one of these programs instead of just the few. I think most people will believe that what happened to Lulu was horrific but I don't think they will walk away thinking all of the kids in the program are or were abused.
I think people will pick up the book and read the two or three stories in it and go "oh my gosh how horrible". That is it, no more, no less. I don't think they will walk away with an understanding of how widespread the problem is.
Send them here. We've got the reports of widespread abuse, maybe Fornits should publish a book of accounts from the forums.
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when i read help at any cost i wondered why she did not cover the events that lead to the closure of CEDU. After all it is the model on which so many programs are based. That and Synanon.
In reply to the original poster i thought it was a good idea that the book cover in depth the big cases particularly in the case of lulu corter. At the time I privately wondered if straight and its spinoffs could possibly be as bad as all that because it is almost inconcievable that a modern western country can allow this to go on for 20 yrs or so. Given that nothing at all is known of this industry outside of the US I found it an interesting starting point for info.
Somebody suggested reading Shouting at the sky & what it takes to pull me through. I have not as yet read shouting but given that It is based around AAA I have seen the series of brat camo and read the newspaper reports about thekids who became violent and the sexaul abuses there. Does ferguson made an reference to that? Does he mention a policy of restraining kids by twisting their wrists for up to an hour? provoking angry kids with "go ahead and hit me"? Aferall AAA was happy to boast about and show such policies to great britian. If he does how does he justify such policies? If not can you be sure he isd telling the whole story?
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And if a book like that were assembled, who would read it?
We can all revel in our victimhood together, but it does very little to stop new kids from ending with the same fate.
I think we should call the book the "never ending story."
:rofl: :rofl:
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I think the guy wouldd be interested in telling our story, if only to get some more dirt on the Republicans behinfd Straight.[/quote]
there is plenty of dirt already....all one would have to do is look it up and educate themselves then stop believing the republican prooganda lies....some people dont want to wake up..they either stay brain washed or stoned...its hard to be awake!!!!
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I think the guy wouldd be interested in telling our story, if only to get some more dirt on the Republicans behinfd Straight.
there is plenty of dirt already....all one would have to do is look it up and educate themselves then stop believing the republican prooganda lies....some people dont want to wake up..they either stay brain washed or stoned...its hard to be awake!!!![/quote]
Lucky the world has heroes like yourself who are willing to take on that burden. :roll:
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brain washed or stoned...its hard to be awake!!!!
Reality is for people who can't handle drugs. ::seg::
To equate being stoned on some good pot to being brainwashed is a load of crap!
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you still use stupid lingo..... not hero... just a survivor, who doesnt want the new world order...so just smoke some more pot rip van winkle
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you still use stupid lingo..... not hero... just a survivor, who doesnt want the new world order...so just smoke some more pot rip van winkle
FINE..fuck you too then....
What, so the expression "load of crap" is stupid lingo..?
What are you talking about, the catchphrase?
Why don't you shut the fuck up? :rofl:
And sorry, but I never called you a "hero" or anything, so get over yourself!
You seem to have some problem with MJ or something....
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The program brainwashing works on some people,poor fuckers.
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your a funny Frod...lighten up ok and have a great weekend whatever it is you choose to do... really!.... responded to post before yours as well... also i've read some of your other posts and i think your great sooooooooo - PEACE dude
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No problem.. take care.. I'll try and avoid jail, insanity & death. :lol:
Peace! ::dove::