Post by: Dr. Frankiln on January 15, 2006, 06:32:00 PM
Author Topic: what's with fornits?
heleneb
Member
Member # 4818
posted January 11, 2006 03:23 PM
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Is anybody real on that site, or are they all disgruntled teens looking to trash every therapeutic program?
I can't wait until they have kids of their own!
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Posts: 63 | From: home | Registered: Jun 2005 | Logged: 151.201.23.173 |
HStreet
Member
Member # 3697
posted January 11, 2006 06:02 PM
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Unfortunately, many of them have chronological ages way beyond the teenage years. However, almost all are disgruntled former program kids. They are one trick ponies with a sole agenda of bashing every single program. They use the mature tools of vulgar language and insults if anyone dares to support a program. The few specks of accurate and useful information on the site is obscured by all the trash talk. My advice- stay away.
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Posts: 462 | From: TX | Registered: Jun 2003 | Logged: 70.251.87.157 |
katsmom
Member
Member # 4446
posted January 11, 2006 07:23 PM
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I received vile emails from posters of that site (most seem to be mid 20's?) when I posted here that my daughter was thinking of leaving her program when she turned 18 (she didn't). They basically said I lost the TBS "lotto". Ugh, I feel sympathy for the parents of the people who post there.
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Posts: 210 | From: Los Angeles | Registered: Nov 2004 | Logged: 69.234.47.26 |
maggie0325
Member
Member # 3191
posted January 12, 2006 08:50 AM
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I, too, have read some of the posts on Fornits. I am a graduate of 20 years and when I read some of the posts referring to the program I graduated from, I can't help wonder what is going on in their lives. I don't understand. I don't think that I am braishwashed (which is what I have been accused of on Fornits)nor am I an advocate of child abuse (another accusation), but I do feel quite strongly that I benefited greatly from my school. I have never claimed that it was perfect, nor have I ever claimed to be perfect as a result of graduating from a TBS ( I just am... hehe). I just did not witness the abuse that is decribed on that site. Never.
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Posts: 36 | From: NC | Registered: Oct 2002 | Logged: 12.149.100.21 |
HStreet
Member
Member # 3697
posted January 12, 2006 12:03 PM
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What bothers me is the complete refusal of the Fornits posters to recognize that there might actually be some good programs out there and that there are kids who NEED these programs. Any parent who sends a kid to a program is attacked and accused of abdicating all parenting responsibilities.
No program is perfect, and it is not always easy to find the right program for a particular kid. As we know, by the time we get to the point of considering a residential program, we have tried absolutely everything. But- the Fornits geniuses will tell you to "try sitting down and talking to your kid". Why didn't I think of that?
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Posts: 462 | From: TX | Registered: Jun 2003 | Logged: 70.251.87.157 |
mose
Member
Member # 2980
posted January 12, 2006 12:19 PM
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I do think there are people in this world that have truly unloving abusive horrible parents. These parents continued to ruin their child?s life by sending them away when they really did not need this level of intervention. It seems as if all those kids (who are now young adults) found each other on the internet and congregate complaining about their misfortune at Fornits. They spend endless hours basking in the horror of their teen years and family life trying to convince others not to do what their parents did to them. They all seem to have been dealt a bad hand in life and can?t move on.
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Posts: 899 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2002 | Logged: 66.108.212.226 |
FS
Member
Member # 3142
posted January 15, 2006 12:21 PM
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It's too bad that this website is so negative and at times down right abusive. It COULD provide a valuable service. Is there a reputable one that allows people to talk freely on the web about programs? If you don't feel comfortable mentioning it here, please private message me.
Thank you.
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Posts: 101 | From: Southeast | Registered: Sep 2002 | Logged: 71.57.132.103 |
[ This Message was edited by: Dr. Frankiln on 2006-01-15 15:32 ]
Post by: try another castle on January 15, 2006, 07:12:00 PM
Quote
maggie0325
Member
Member # 3191
posted January 12, 2006 08:50 AM
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I, too, have read some of the posts on Fornits. I am a graduate of 20 years and when I read some of the posts referring to the program I graduated from, I can't help wonder what is going on in their lives. I don't understand. I don't think that I am braishwashed (which is what I have been accused of on Fornits)nor am I an advocate of child abuse (another accusation), but I do feel quite strongly that I benefited greatly from my school. I have never claimed that it was perfect, nor have I ever claimed to be perfect as a result of graduating from a TBS ( I just am... hehe). I just did not witness the abuse that is decribed on that site. Never.
I think I know who that is! (If that is the Maggie that went to RMA.) Her verbage is similar to other things I've seen written on the archived CEDU graduates board. (Not the current one.)
I think it's a shame when people are attacked in a less than articulate way because of their beliefs about their own experience. This is on BOTH sides of the fence. I'm sick of the pro CEDU people telling others to get over it and calling them whining babies, and I'm sick of the anti-CEDU people calling others who may view their experience positive or in the grey area brainwashed culties. It's way more complex than that, IMO.
And I'm sorry, but if that other person is telling the truth, hate mail is just NOT OK. (Although they probably shouldn't post their email info, either, if that's how the other people found out about it.)
What I DO take issue with is people who encourage parents to send their children to places like this. But if someone is simply speaking to their own experience, then let them do that. I have no problem with others debating their viewpoint, in fact, I encourage that, but I do have problems with flaming, because it lessens the validity of people who hold that position who are far more articulate on that matter. I think the real issue is that individuals are SO afraid that their own experience is going to be invalidated by someone else's that they get steamed up and act overzealous.
If they want to flame, fine. I believe in freedom of speech. But it doesn't really accomplish anything.
Another thing, and the main point I take issue with, is that strugglingteens is completely one sided. Not only that, they are spreading the myth that fornits is also one sided. These people should come into the CEDU forum sometime. There are flame wars going on constantly between people who think others should get over it, people who had a positive experience and are much more articulate about it than the flamers, people who have mixed feelings about their experience, people who are totally frothy and resentful about it, people who are struggling with emotional fallout because of issues that may have just come to the surface, and people who wanted to warn parents about the CEDU schools (back when they were open), and most recently, Carlbrook, which has an ex-RMA headmaster there. (As well as an ex-Cascade staff member.)
It's the myopic, over-simplified, viewpoints that do the most damage. And stugglingteens is a HUGE culprit of that, because they want to make money referring people to these schools. Any post that offers a differeing viewpoint is immediately removed from their boards, because it lessens the chance of a successful referral. That's downright dishonest, and has the potential to ruin lives.
At least on fornits, all views are welcome, and there is no moderation in many of the forums. As a result, no posts are removed or edited for content. It can get hostile because of that, but no one is silenced.
And maybe the people who are complaining about how there are so many out there who are angry about their experiences need to examine WHY that is, instead of simply thinking it's because there is something implicitly wrong with the character of the ones who are angry. Did they ever think of that? Even on sites that are supposedly pro-CEDU, (like cedugraduates.com, for example,) a great many posters are very negative about their experience. Why do you think that is, hm?
We can't ALL be fucked up immature assholes, you know. And we can't ALL be wrong.
_________________
"Learn from your mistakes so that one day you can repeat them precisely."[ This Message was edited by: sorry... try another castle on 2006-01-15 16:23 ]
-Trevor Goodchild
Post by: Anonymous on January 15, 2006, 07:23:00 PM
Post by: try another castle on January 15, 2006, 07:25:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-15 16:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
"castle- if you could see the private messages that go back and forth after someone asks about a program on the Program section of strugglingteens, you would be less-inclined to think it is all one-sided. Many of the posters share the bad as well as the good about particular programs. I know I have shared concerns with others about some of the programs with which I am familiar. It isn't a one-size-fits-all deal, and people need to realize that."
Well, that's good to know, if that is the case. However, they are still PRIVATE messages, and not ones that are out for all to see. The public posts are still edited or removed. I take issue with that. Not all parents are going to be private messaging people, or feel comfortable doing that. And other parents may not even decide to post on the boards at all, and may just take the public testimony as a given.
It's always the public impression that is the strongest impression.
_________________
"Learn from your mistakes so that one day you can repeat them precisely."[ This Message was edited by: sorry... try another castle on 2006-01-15 16:29 ]
-Trevor Goodchild
Post by: Troll Control on January 15, 2006, 07:33:00 PM
"No, it's not enough that I completely fucked up my kid. I have to write about it every day. It's my therapy. Everyone tells me I did the right thing, even though Johnny killed himself last Christmas when I told him he was going back to the program because of his overblown sense of entitlement."
Nice job, parents! :roll:
Post by: Anonymous on January 15, 2006, 08:39:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 15, 2006, 09:05:00 PM
Post by: Troll Control on January 15, 2006, 09:16:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on January 15, 2006, 10:40:00 PM
Jealous, Lon?
ROFL
Seriously, though. I'm not being the least bit sarcastic or snide here. I've never talked w/ the guy. Don't know him at all. But we each have known the other's name for some rime now. And I have to give the guy kudos for faith; faith of the variety that thrives and grows on honest doubt. I'd bet good money that private messages on his site are not all that private. But at least he seems to respect the idea of informed free will enough to let ppl talk candidly together and see what happens.
You'll find you're wrong, Lon. Just lock yourself in a cozy spot for awhile and read the Federalist Papers and some of the historic context. You're as anti American as they come.
But, as Niles says, I'm a patriot because I believe we have the ability to unfuck ourselves. If you ever come to understand that, all's forgiven, come home.
Mean time, muck raking is the craft of introducing fresh air and sunlight on a regular basis to turn bullshit and flotsom into rich, productive soil. That's my interest. My occupation is calling it work.
We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.
-- Ben Franklin At the signing of the Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1776.
Post by: try another castle on January 15, 2006, 10:57:00 PM
Quote
Somewhere in the WWASP v PURE transcript, they state Lon's traffic stats. I don't remember the last figures (or even my own, I honestly don't think of it that often) but this site was banging like 10, 100 or 1000 times his.
That doesn't surprise me in the least.
What transcript is this you speak of? It sounds like an interesting read.
Post by: Anonymous on January 16, 2006, 05:20:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-15 19:57:00, sorry... try another castle wrote:
"QuoteSomewhere in the WWASP v PURE transcript, they state Lon's traffic stats. I don't remember the last figures (or even my own, I honestly don't think of it that often) but this site was banging like 10, 100 or 1000 times his.
That doesn't surprise me in the least.
What transcript is this you speak of? It sounds like an interesting read.
"
WWASP vs PURE Transcript
Post by: Anonymous on January 17, 2006, 12:51:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on January 17, 2006, 02:11:00 AM
From: Lon Woodbury [mailto:lon@woodbury.com]
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 4:52 PM
To: '**********'
Subject: RE: Strugglingteens.com Visitor: Consultant Services
Its doesn?t pay to patronize me.
Anybody from fornits can post on our discussion board so long as they can act civil, and avoid such things a personal attacks or profanity, etc. Not doing this has got several people bounced off the board, which is a more or less permanent situation, or at least until they can convince Jena they can act civil.
The reason participants are not allowed to mention specific programs is because that leads to flame wars, and vindictiveness, etc. However, we have set it up so people can privately respond to posts through email, and that is between the two of them, and doesn?t drag into the discussion somebody who wants to pop off in public to anybody that disagrees with them.
If fornits people are not participating in our discussion board, its because they have been unable to be civil, or have elected to not say anything, or have created a fantasy that their posts will be censored.
Lon Woodbury IECA
Certified Educational Planner
_____________________________________________
From: ********
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 11:35 PM
To: Lon Woodbury
Subject: RE: Strugglingteens.com Visitor: Consultant Services
i will say it so you can understand let the fornits people respond and if the name a particular school and post info on it and it factually based allow it posted there and if it goes against one parent so what? They bad mouth fomits with their misinformation on the board they know little about. They are generizing the board unfairly. Let us explain out position and explain it by using evidence by using program names and public news accounts and public records we have found without you or jena wiping out the post. Only if we use evidence we may reach the narrow closed mined parents that bad mouth the fornits board if we cant name names and post info anything we say will just be shrugged off. It most likely will be shrugged off anyway but there is more of a chance of them beliving the truth.
-----Original Message-----
From: Lon Woodbury [mailto:lon@woodbury.com]
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 12:45 AM
To: '*******'
Subject: RE: Strugglingteens.com Visitor: Consultant Services
Your request makes no sense. There has never been any censorship, in any meaning of the word, so far as administration of the board. If somebody goes over the top and shows disrespect to the others, and away from the concept of respectfully disagreeing or basic decency, or start talking about specific programs, then they will be bounced off the board and depending, their post might be deleted. So far as anything Jena or I have done, we have always explained to the people exactly why we were taking the action.
As another matter, at times people have deleted their own posts which is their right and is not censorship and especially not board censorship, but they often do not announce they are the ones to delete the posts, but the ignorant would leap to the conclusion that there is some agenda to silence people.
For example, Overlordd promised to behave himself, and posted for quite some time with his concerns and disagreements before he could no longer stand it and started making personal accusations and starting toward violent images, for which he then lost his privileges. Several of his critical posts are still there, if you do a search, which would be contrary to the goal of censorship, as are also some of your posts remaining still there.
If you want to suggest people posting over here, that?s your right, just remind them that we insist on civility here, especially when disagreeing. People who have honest criticisms that are respectful have been accepted, but those on the attack, especially with limited knowledge, are rejected by the participants and probably will lose posting privileges.
I started this board with the idea of a free wheeling discussion of the issues, much like the goal of the fornits site, but a few people got so far overboard, both pro and con, that we were degenerating into an insult driven negativity like all too often goes on over at fornits, so we instituted some restrictions that screen out the nastiness. I prefer to spend my time dealing with people that have some idea of what they are talking about, which inclination you have shown at times.
Lon Woodbury IECA
Certified Educational Planner
_____________________________________________
From: *********
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 9:21 PM
To: Lon Woodbury
Subject: RE: Strugglingteens.com Visitor: Consultant Services
i understand i cant post i will honor that. But can i inform the fornits board that you will not censor the post as long as there is no cursing? No mather what is said as long as there is no cursing? They bashed the people on fornits so they can expect to get it back! I will post there is NO cursing allowed or over the top bad behavior allowed. Let that one topic be immune from the usual censorship
-----Original Message-----
From: Lon Woodbury [mailto:lon@woodbury.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 10:38 PM
To: '******'
Subject: RE: Strugglingteens.com Visitor: Consultant Services
Hi *******:
Of course anybody can post there who follow the rules. The basic rule is to
be respectful, things like respectfully disagree, etc. You got kicked off
the board some time ago for that reason, so one of the consequences is you
can't post on the board. However, there are some that post on fornits that
can still post on the ST board that have been able to disagree pleasantly.
I've been expecting them to show up on that thread sooner or later.
Lon Woodbury IECA
Certified Educational Planner
PS: After looking at the profanity, vulgarity, vicious attacks and wild
unsubstantiated rumors common on fornits, you sure have balls to complain
about some place else being rude!
-----Original Message-----]
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 3:39 PM
To: http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ ... c;f=14;t=0 (http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=14;t=0)
00055 if fornits is being discussed it is only fair you open at least this
topic up to people on fornits who want to post there UNSENSORED!!! not the
typical stugging teens censorship. Or close the topic as it is rude to talk
about people like in that topic and us not be allowed to respond back with
tastfull replys No cussing is the only rule.
Post by: Anonymous on January 17, 2006, 02:12:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on January 17, 2006, 03:24:00 AM
Post by: try another castle on January 17, 2006, 03:40:00 AM
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ money money money
If Lon believes he is anything but a behavior mod school pimp, he has some serious delusions.
I'll take him seriously if he allows people to talk critically about schools by name.
Other than that, it's all hot air.
Post by: Antigen on January 17, 2006, 04:07:00 AM
You can throw a few snow balls, just like they do on the evening news to create a mocking appearance of balance. But absolutely no hard hitting questions. Questions about the basic obscenity of reprograming one's children or of hiring thugs to kidnap them from their beds at night will not be tolerated.
Of course, you can thoroughly humiliate and degrade your kids or the kids of total strangers who may happen along or even the children of total strangers who have nothing at all to do w/ Struggling Turkeys. They're fair game, the goddamned kids! But no such treatment of troubled parents will be tolerated.
Why would mention of a program by name cause flame wars? I just don't get that. I don't know of another industry who's members are so friggen paranoid.
For myself, I do not believe in any revelation. As for a future life, every man must judge for himself between conflicting vague probabilities.
--Charles Robert Darwin, English naturalist
_________________
Drug war POW Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
Post by: Anonymous on January 17, 2006, 08:57:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-15 18:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"(http://http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y200/SpringCreekDropout/turkeyscopy.jpg)"
:tup: :tup:
Post by: WWFSMD on January 17, 2006, 09:55:00 AM
What would be the point of not allowing people to talk about specific programs? Wouldn't that tend to hamper the free-flow exchange of information if you don't allow people to talk about their specific experiences? If these places are so great and do so many wonderful things for kids you'd think they could stand up to a little Q & A.
I have found that the best way to give advice to your children is to find out what they want and then advise them to do it
--Harry S. Truman
Post by: WWFSMD on January 17, 2006, 10:34:00 AM
Quote
CBish
Junior Member
Member # 5038 posted January 16, 2006 07:52 AM
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To all! I do believe in the program where our son is. I know more or less how much the mentors/counselors earn at his and other sister schools. It is not a gold mine.
You really should check a little further on this. Its absolutely a gold mine! Maybe not the peon staff, but the owner/operators are RAKING it in!
Quote
If a child does pull through, it is a success for the mentor as well. Of course, there are no guarantees of success but these kids are given the tools to make a success of their lives.
So if a child "pulls through" the success is credited to the staff and program, but if he doesn't "pull through" its his fault. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Are you kidding me????? http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/01 ... frey1.html (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0104061jamesfrey1.html)
Quote
Most parents are at their wits' end and sending their kid away is a last resort.
A lot of parents tend to freak out when their kids become teens and start displaying stupid behavior. Here's a clue though. They're TEENAGERS!! They're impulsive, rebellious, thoughtless, wreckless etc. Go read the "checklists" these places have for "danger signs". They describe almost every teen I've ever met. Fucking fear mongering freaks.
Quote
It was too hard to find reputable schools ourselves, so we engaged an independent EC, who has helped us with WC, TBS and now again WC - hopefully after these 6 weeks back to the TBS, CB
No such thing as an "independent" Ed Con.
You have rights atecedent to all earthly governments; rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws; rights derived from the Great Legislator of the Universe.
John Adams
Post by: BuzzKill on January 17, 2006, 12:22:00 PM
IF I recall correctly - once upon a time, naming names was permitted. If I recall correctly, he changed this policy as a result of Susan and the mess she made, pretending to be multiple people. I am under the impression Lon hopes to avoid such occurrences in future with this policy of no names allowed.
However (hey Lon - you listening?) the censorship on ST.com is extreme, and people are blocked for raising questions, and criticizing program polices, no matter how civil they are, as they do so. I am a good example. I have been blocked from that board at least twice - and I have never been un-civil. Not by the general meaning of the term anyway.
What Lon is running is an extended version of the BBS.
It is all about supporting the parents and the programs.
Non-supportive comments are apparently considered to be un-civil.
Post by: WWFSMD on January 17, 2006, 12:24:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-17 09:22:00, BuzzKill wrote:
"In Lon's defense -
IF I recall correctly - once upon a time, naming names was permitted. If I recall correctly, he changed this policy as a result of Susan and the mess she made, pretending to be multiple people. I am under the impression Lon hopes to avoid such occurrences in future with this policy of no names allowed.
What happened? Were they talking about names of people or names of programs?
Don't laugh when you leave this courtroom, thinking you have beat the system because you have looked these things up yourself. We are going to get you down the road.
Washington Superior CourtJudge Rebecca Baker
Post by: BuzzKill on January 17, 2006, 12:31:00 PM
I learned more after discovering the Voy board and Boarding School Truth's board - which eventually lead to me speaking with both Lon and Susan about the posting on ST, and WWASP and so on.
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on January 17, 2006, 12:54:00 PM
Post by: WWFSMD on January 17, 2006, 12:59:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-17 09:54:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"I have thought about trying to post there, but it would be a complete waste of my time. The things I would say, probably wouldn't end up getting posted anyway. Not because I am swearing, and out of control, but because I would have to name names. I feel like the only way people could believe what I had to say would be to name names? Then to be sensored because of that......??????"
I know, I don't even really have a problem with keeping a person's name out of it, but why keep the name of a program out? That ensures that there is NO WAY to truly discuss the pros and cons or have any kind of meaningful discussion about the practices of such programs.
science is the record of dead religions.
--Oscar Wilde
Post by: BuzzKill on January 17, 2006, 01:18:00 PM
Indeed.
And for this reason, you are not even permitted to name places - for example - you can not write about the Jamaican program.
Post by: Anonymous on January 17, 2006, 01:45:00 PM
http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ ... 4;t=000054 (http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=14;t=000054)
lmmom
Member
Member # 4114
posted October 31, 2005 05:08 PM
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Katfish: I don't deny that abusive programs are out there, and without naming names, I would run, not walk away from anything connected with one particular multinational corporation running programs in the US and various countries.
Post by: Anonymous on January 17, 2006, 01:49:00 PM
The ST board does harm not good.
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on January 17, 2006, 02:03:00 PM
Post by: WWFSMD on January 17, 2006, 02:11:00 PM
science is the record of dead religions.
--Oscar Wilde
Post by: Anonymous on January 17, 2006, 07:48:00 PM
I'm also quite sure that Lon would really nervous if all the people there started talking about Scott Wooldrige and the abuse that he had to put up woth from both the students and staff.
I would also be wary of listening to anybody on that website that is a former student and now has children in the programs. Even more so those that had initially placed their children in one program...only to find out that it "didn't work" then subsequently enrolling them in the full blown 2 year program.
The reason that I would question these people as a parent is that they all seem to espouse these so called "tools" that they were given to work with and refer to how they would have been dead or in jail unless their parents had placed them there. Those are some pretty extreme scare tactics...RMA vs Dead vs Jail...hmmmmm...none of my pre RMA friends are dead or in jail...go figure.
So....what exactly are these "tools"...can anybody name them other than just by using some statement that was beaten into our brains that "I am a loving and kind person" or "I am a powerful and giving person"...yeah...remember...it was two words...I guess I just got the wrong two words.
Is the brass key that I was given in the Summit a tool? funny...I have kept it through life thinking it was something special...but really...RMA could have handed me a rock and told me it was a tool and I would have left RMA ready to take on the world. Really...I had my words...and my rock..what went wrong?
I also find that the "lack of civility" that Lon and his (I'm assuming not accusing) commission earning cronies seems to come more from people that are pro-programs. I see people come on this board that ask for help as they feel that there was something wrong with their experience only to be called pussies or insulted in some way shap or form only because they had somehow "failed" the program. This is disturbing to me as belittling somebody is supposedly not the "program" way.
I wonder if Maggie gets a discount on her childs program for steering parents in that direction...who knows...maybe by the time she has sent her 4th child there she will be getting it for free....provided she sends enough referrals Lons way.
I probably wouldn't be picking out Maggie...and I actually thought she was a pretty nice person at RMA but she crossed my line by stating that she had never seen any abuse at RMA. It is either a selective memory or a flat out lie.
None of us ever knew the students "pre-RMA" so it would be impossible to say how they would have ended up had they not gone there, but if the programs were all that they claimed to be, there would never be a board such as this one.
Post by: Anonymous on January 17, 2006, 08:12:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-17 16:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Of course Lon doesn't want people naming names on his website. That would undermine his credibility as an impartial "ed con" if people were able to name all the people he originally worked with at RMA in the 80's. It would expose the quid pro quo that has been built over the decades.
I'm also quite sure that Lon would really nervous if all the people there started talking about Scott Wooldrige and the abuse that he had to put up woth from both the students and staff.
I would also be wary of listening to anybody on that website that is a former student and now has children in the programs. Even more so those that had initially placed their children in one program...only to find out that it "didn't work" then subsequently enrolling them in the full blown 2 year program.
The reason that I would question these people as a parent is that they all seem to espouse these so called "tools" that they were given to work with and refer to how they would have been dead or in jail unless their parents had placed them there. Those are some pretty extreme scare tactics...RMA vs Dead vs Jail...hmmmmm...none of my pre RMA friends are dead or in jail...go figure.
So....what exactly are these "tools"...can anybody name them other than just by using some statement that was beaten into our brains that "I am a loving and kind person" or "I am a powerful and giving person"...yeah...remember...it was two words...I guess I just got the wrong two words.
Is the brass key that I was given in the Summit a tool? funny...I have kept it through life thinking it was something special...but really...RMA could have handed me a rock and told me it was a tool and I would have left RMA ready to take on the world. Really...I had my words...and my rock..what went wrong?
I also find that the "lack of civility" that Lon and his (I'm assuming not accusing) commission earning cronies seems to come more from people that are pro-programs. I see people come on this board that ask for help as they feel that there was something wrong with their experience only to be called pussies or insulted in some way shap or form only because they had somehow "failed" the program. This is disturbing to me as belittling somebody is supposedly not the "program" way.
I wonder if Maggie gets a discount on her childs program for steering parents in that direction...who knows...maybe by the time she has sent her 4th child there she will be getting it for free....provided she sends enough referrals Lons way.
I probably wouldn't be picking out Maggie...and I actually thought she was a pretty nice person at RMA but she crossed my line by stating that she had never seen any abuse at RMA. It is either a selective memory or a flat out lie.
None of us ever knew the students "pre-RMA" so it would be impossible to say how they would have ended up had they not gone there, but if the programs were all that they claimed to be, there would never be a board such as this one."
HOW DARE YOU ATTACK ME PERSONALLY. WHAT A COWARD. THE SAD PART IS THAT YOU AND I PROBABLY SHARE SOME GOOD TIMES. I DONT KNOW. BUT YOU DO NOT KNOW MY STORY. AND AS YOU HIDE BEHIND AN ANONYMOUS POST, I STATE WHO I AM... I HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE.
I STAND BY THE FACT THAT I NEVER EVER SAW ANY PHYSICAL ABUSE. I ALSO STAND BY THAT I CHOOSE TO REMEMBER THE GOOD THINGS. PERIOD. MY STORY AFTER RMA IS LESS THAN PERFECT... PRETTY FUCKED UP... THE DIFFERENCE IS, I CHOOSE TO DWELL ON WHAT IS POSITIVE, NOT NEGATIVE. LIFE IS TOO SHORT.
BUT ATTACKING ME AND BRINGING MY OTHER CHIDREN INTO THIS IS NASTY AND ABUSIVE. NOR IS IT FAIR TO ME OR THE OTHER POSTERS ON THIS SITE. AND I DON'T THINK THAT EVEN GINGER/ANTIGEN WOULD SUPPORT THE PERSONAL ATTACK.
I DID EDIT MY POST ON STRUGGLING TEENS.
Post by: Anonymous on January 17, 2006, 08:35:00 PM
You certainly seem to get worked up about it. It's amazing that it only took you 24 minutes to bash my post.
Yet you are still a liar saying that there was no abuse...as you notice in my post...I say nothing about "physical" abuse...although my recollection of the "I want to live propheet" and the "I and Me" workshop must be different than yours.
Can you honestly say that EVERYBODY there was given the respect that should be afforded to ANY human?
You dance around the subject quite nicely.
oh...and by the way...why would you feel the need to state here that you changed your post on struggling teens if you stand behind it?
If you think that you can discount my post because it is anonymous...fine...it obviously struck a chord with you. Had you reacted that way at RMA in a rap...you would have been blown away. You state that you choose to dwell on the positive...that is good and I support that. But dwelling on the positive while denying the negative does not do this world justice.
Post by: Anonymous on January 17, 2006, 08:49:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-17 17:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hey Maggie...sorry to tell you but as far as I'm concerned...busting somebody's dirt is fair game here just like it was at RMA.
You certainly seem to get worked up about it. It's amazing that it only took you 24 minutes to bash my post.
Yet you are still a liar saying that there was no abuse...as you notice in my post...I say nothing about "physical" abuse...although my recollection of the "I want to live propheet" and the "I and Me" workshop must be different than yours.
Can you honestly say that EVERYBODY there was given the respect that should be afforded to ANY human?
You dance around the subject quite nicely.
oh...and by the way...why would you feel the need to state here that you changed your post on struggling teens if you stand behind it?
If you think that you can discount my post because it is anonymous...fine...it obviously struck a chord with you. Had you reacted that way at RMA in a rap...you would have been blown away. You state that you choose to dwell on the positive...that is good and I support that. But dwelling on the positive while denying the negative does not do this world justice."
You sound sad and pitiful.
And, again, I stand by that I NEVER witnessed any physical abuse. If you did, then you have every right to state that and stand by your experience. This is my third post on FORNITS... not once have I discounted any one else's experience. Not once. Nor do I see my experience, or life... or whatever, as DIRT.
As far as striking a chord... no, not really... just felt the need to defend my name. I was SHOCKED to see it come up. As I am sure you would be if you suddenly saw your name show up here.
Post by: Anonymous on January 17, 2006, 08:53:00 PM
Post by: try another castle on January 17, 2006, 08:55:00 PM
Quote
Is the brass key that I was given in the Summit a tool? funny...I have kept it through life thinking it was something special...but really...RMA could have handed me a rock and told me it was a tool and I would have left RMA ready to take on the world. Really...I had my words...and my rock..what went wrong?
Haha. I remember I chucked mine into the middle of a grassy area on the college campus back when I was getting my degree in the early 90s.
_________________
"Learn from your mistakes so that one day you can repeat them precisely."[ This Message was edited by: sorry... try another castle on 2006-01-17 18:17 ]
-Trevor Goodchild
Post by: Anonymous on January 17, 2006, 09:35:00 PM
Quote
You sound sad and pitiful.
Why is it that EVERY single post by a programmie resorts to an ad-hominem argument? You people are pathetic.
Post by: Anonymous on January 17, 2006, 10:36:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-15 18:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"(http://http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y200/SpringCreekDropout/turkeyscopy.jpg)"
::rocker::
Post by: WWFSMD on January 18, 2006, 12:29:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-17 17:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
I specifically stated the abuse I witnessed and did not witness.
So are you saying that its ok to verbally and psychologically abuse kids as long as the intention is true and noble? Just don't cross the line into physical violence but emotional and psychological violence is just A-OK. :roll:
How would you describe a "propheet"? Or the "I and Me Workshop"? What is the intended result and how is that brought about?
I give money for church organs in the hope the organ music will distract the congregation's attention from the rest of the service.
--Andrew Carnegie, Scottish-born American industrialist and philanthropist
Post by: Antigen on January 18, 2006, 12:56:00 AM
On the other hand, it's entirely unconscionable to discuss those same details in tones and terms which tend not to support the idea.
Least, that's my take. I didn't see any personal attack. No name calling, just facts. And I do share that concern too. I was pleasantly surprised to find very few former Seedlings and Straightlings who were willing to put their kids in programs. Even most of the ones who swear it saved their sorry souls wouldn't sacrifice their children to that particular convinction. I'm sorry to hear that you never got out and your kids have no escape. Honestly, that's not a dig or a jab or sarcasm and it's not a personal attack. I'm as sorry for your family as for mine.
Education is that which remains, if one has forgotten everything he learned in school.
--Albert Einstein, Out of My Later Years, 1950
Post by: Antigen on January 18, 2006, 01:06:00 AM
Clever dude, eh? If only he'd use his powers for good instead of evil.
The clearest way into the Universe is through a forest wilderness.
-- John Muir
Post by: try another castle on January 18, 2006, 03:17:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-17 17:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-17 17:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hey Maggie...sorry to tell you but as far as I'm concerned...busting somebody's dirt is fair game here just like it was at RMA.
You certainly seem to get worked up about it. It's amazing that it only took you 24 minutes to bash my post.
Yet you are still a liar saying that there was no abuse...as you notice in my post...I say nothing about "physical" abuse...although my recollection of the "I want to live propheet" and the "I and Me" workshop must be different than yours.
Can you honestly say that EVERYBODY there was given the respect that should be afforded to ANY human?
You dance around the subject quite nicely.
oh...and by the way...why would you feel the need to state here that you changed your post on struggling teens if you stand behind it?
If you think that you can discount my post because it is anonymous...fine...it obviously struck a chord with you. Had you reacted that way at RMA in a rap...you would have been blown away. You state that you choose to dwell on the positive...that is good and I support that. But dwelling on the positive while denying the negative does not do this world justice."
You sound sad and pitiful.
And, again, I stand by that I NEVER witnessed any physical abuse. If you did, then you have every right to state that and stand by your experience. This is my third post on FORNITS... not once have I discounted any one else's experience. Not once. Nor do I see my experience, or life... or whatever, as DIRT.
As far as striking a chord... no, not really... just felt the need to defend my name. I was SHOCKED to see it come up. As I am sure you would be if you suddenly saw your name show up here.
"
So the emotional abuse is somehow less valid?
And I don't know, but the restraint in the IWTL propheet is coming pretty close to physical abuse. Sure, they aren't beating the shit out of you, but I remember a guy in my peer group freaking the fuck out when they did that to him. He had a history of lock ups and being restrained before, so that exercise was especially traumatic for him.
And really, I think a lot of the physical stuff they did in propheets and workshops was borderline physical abuse. The point was to break you down, just like it's done in cults. How about the running in the I&Me to the point of exhaustion? Or the circle exercise or shoving each other in the brothers keeper? And I don't know about your peer group, but all bets were off when everyone had to fight for the lifeboat in the summit. People were ready to beat the shit out of each other, and the staff just sat by and watched. (I simply sat off to the sidelines and was thinking "This is totally insane. There is no way I'm getting into that mix.") There was a lot of "point to exhaustion" stuff at that school. They even said it themselves, "we want to break down your resistance."
Look, compared to straight, this is candy-ass shit, I agree, but it doesn't mean mental browbeating and mind-fuckery is not abusive.
Post by: Antigen on January 18, 2006, 03:37:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-18 00:17:00, sorry... try another castle wrote:
Look, compared to straight, this is candy-ass shit, I agree, but it doesn't mean mental browbeating and mind-fuckery is not abusive.
No, I don't think so at all. Remember that Straight was a huge organization. There were somewhere around 500 kids in St. Pete when I was there. Then they branched off. And they were in business like that for something like 17 years.
The things you hear about most frequently are, of course, the most shocking, most objectively fucked up things that ever happened there. Usually, there's an identifiable influence (like Virgil Newton) who's total sadistic delusion took the thing to whole new levels.
But the more I read up on CEDU, the more it sounds like the "normal" level of mindfuck and mental/emotional abuse in Straight or the Seed.
Every sensible man, every honorable man, must hold the Christian sect in horror.
--Francois Marie Arouet "Voltaire", French author and playwright
Post by: try another castle on January 18, 2006, 05:37:00 AM
Quote
But the more I read up on CEDU, the more it sounds like the "normal" level of mindfuck and mental/emotional abuse in Straight or the Seed.
I guess it would make sense, since they all came from Synanon.
The testimony I have read from people who went to WWASPS, straight and elan sounds a lot worse than what I went through. But like you said, straight was a huge orginization, and so is WWASPS, and they are probably only going to print the more gruesome info, as opposed to the day to day happenings.
I just know that at RMA, we never had "humble pants" or any shit like that.
However, regardless of what the situation is in terms of severity, the CEDU schools were certainly fucked up.
Well, it will certainly be interesting to read Maia's book when it comes out the 16th. I don't know if she is going to mention CEDU in it or not. I know that she has written about it in the past, but the blurb on the book looks like it is more going to focus on seed, straight and WWASPS.
Post by: Antigen on January 19, 2006, 02:44:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-18 02:37:00, sorry... try another castle wrote:
The testimony I have read from people who went to WWASPS, straight and elan sounds a lot worse than what I went through. But like you said, straight was a huge orginization, and so is WWASPS, and they are probably only going to print the more gruesome info, as opposed to the day to day happenings.
Well, there's the matter of perception and adaptation, too, and how those day to day policies and practices always foster those more sensational events. I'm talking about the kind of things that each seem petty if you try and explain it to anyone. For instance, we had to sit straight up in our chairs.
So what? They do that in Catholic school and the military, don't they? Sure, but there are matters of degrees. We were in our chairs, unless instructed to stand and line up at a door, for a solid 12 hours most days, and twice a week up to 18 hours. And you couldn't let your back touch the chair, nor your arms or legs cross, nor your fingers tap, nor the flats of your feet leave the floor. If you did, someone would knuckle your spine or otherwise harass you. If you reacted in anyway other than silent and swift compliance, you might just get slammed to the floor by the kids nearest you then become the occasional focus of all the group's wrath for up to a few hours till Staff decided you could get up and return to your seat.
Except for one time, it wasn't me. Until that time, I thought it was all way overboard, but I couldn't understand why the stupid misbehavers kept brining it on themselves. And, frankly, after close to two years in, I honestly didn't think that what I just described could be fairly called abuse. It was just strict, that's all.
Your perceptions change a whole lot more than people like to think depending on the behavior and aparent attitudes of the people around you. Psrinques call it 'social proof'.
Quote
I just know that at RMA, we never had "humble pants" or any shit like that.
No, but you had other forms of humiliation and demoralization. Did they have the parents write commitment letters there? We didn't have that. Instead, we got to hear it straight from the script our parents had been trained to follow twice a week on open meeting nights.
Quote
Well, it will certainly be interesting to read Maia's book when it comes out the 16th. I don't know if she is going to mention CEDU in it or not. I know that she has written about it in the past, but the blurb on the book looks like it is more going to focus on seed, straight and WWASPS.
"
Oh, I can't wait either!
I cannot believe in the immortality of the soul.... No, all this talk of an existence for us, as individuals, beyond the grave is wrong. It is born of our tenacity of life -- our desire to go on living -- our dread of coming to an end.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor
Post by: try another castle on January 19, 2006, 02:57:00 AM
Quote
Sure, but there are matters of degrees. We were in our chairs, unless instructed to stand and line up at a door, for a solid 12 hours most days, and twice a week up to 18 hours. And you couldn't let your back touch the chair, nor your arms or legs cross, nor your fingers tap, nor the flats of your feet leave the floor. If you did, someone would knuckle your spine or otherwise harass you. If you reacted in anyway other than silent and swift compliance, you might just get slammed to the floor by the kids nearest you then become the occasional focus of all the group's wrath for up to a few hours till Staff decided you could get up and return to your seat.
Yeah, that sounds far more regimented than anything that would happen at CEDU. CEDU was very new agey cultish touchy feely stuff. The only thing that came close to what you were talking about was the sitting position we had to assume in the summit, but it wasn't painful or anything like that, it was just stupid. However, you bring up a good point in that there are many different ways to enforce conformity. Which kind of reinforces what I was speaking about before, we were short on overly harsh physical discipline compared to other schools (although we DID have it) but we had heaps of emotional mind-fuckery, which is just as bad.
Post by: Antigen on January 19, 2006, 03:26:00 AM
My dad came up litterally in a dirt floor shack, or actually a series of them. So while we were fed and properly housed and clothed, our baseline for comfort was just a lot lower than for some ppl. It wasn't punative or anything. It was just our lifestyle. So I was used to austerity, too.
We played rough, but we were playing! There was absolutely nothing playful about the social interaction in the Program. It was cut throat and high stakes. You didn't even dare tell yourself what you really thought. And, after awhile, you'd forget.
I think that's what the parents just can't understand. It's an intensely personal and brutal sort of violation of your very autonomy. I don't think mind rape is too strong a word.
And the worst part, at least to me, is that you know damned well the parents and a lot of other people in each kid's life know, on some level, just what's going on. And they tacitly or vocally approve of it.
Why? Well, because! The term "out of control teenager" is almost precisely synonymous w/ "uppity nigger" in our brave new lexicon.
The world is so exquisite, with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's no good evidence. Far better, it seems to me, to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.
--Carl Sagan
Post by: Anonymous on January 19, 2006, 03:30:00 AM
but I gotta say...those humble pants definitely win the prize for being the most...well...it just makes me think of 'the silence of the lambs' when the girl is in the pit.
Post by: try another castle on January 19, 2006, 04:09:00 AM
Ok, ok, there are some. Of course, those ones will probably be labeled "depressed".
You cite Irish roots. Maybe it's just part of my Jewish upbringing to constantly think "It could have been worse." I mean, it definitely could have been worse, but it can always be worse.
And regarding full-times... I was on one myself for 14 days, and I have to say, probably the weirdest rule they had for full-time-ees was that you couldn't smile. Because you would be "running from" your issues. Not smiling for 14 days was tough, (especially on movie nights, when they might be playing a comedy in the living room) but I can't imagine what it would be like for 63 days.
_________________
"Learn from your mistakes so that one day you can repeat them precisely."[ This Message was edited by: sorry... try another castle on 2006-01-19 01:14 ]
-Trevor Goodchild
Post by: Antigen on January 19, 2006, 06:04:00 AM
That intention and volition seems meaningless, but it's not. You can tolerate almost any discomfort better if it's inadvertant, not intentional.
But, on the other hand, what you call bans we called first phase. Those little things add up, too. No newcomers talking to newcomers, no talking out in group (no free communication, even normal civility and utility stuff like "please pass the salt") That was full time and could go on for months or, in some of Virgil's private hell holes, years. Another interesting little rule, no newcomers looking in the mirror. The austensible reason was to keep us from avoiding ourselves by getting into our images. But really, your own face was the only familiar one in your suddenly miniaturized world, and you weren't allowed to say good morning to it. Things like that had a much more potent impact than you might think.
Theology: The effort to explain the unknowable in terms of the not worth knowing.
--H. L. Mencken, American publisher
Post by: Anonymous on January 19, 2006, 12:30:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on January 19, 2006, 05:10:00 PM
What I'm trying to do, I guess, is lay down my part of the story for the purpose of meaningful comparison. I agree that CEDU/Brown has been, most of the time, quite tame in some regards compared to some places and quite horrible by comparison to others.
It could always be worse, it could always be better. Let's get past that.
I want to talk about the similarities. And that's the ONLY reason why I lay out the differences. If we can put it all on the table, take off the differences, then we're left with what we're left with.
And I think that's quite interesting a topic of exploration and debate right there.
Jails and prisons are the complement of schools; so many less as you have of the latter, so many more you must have of the former
--Horace Mann
Post by: try another castle on January 19, 2006, 11:03:00 PM
I don't hear nearly enough about how the seed led to straight. Wasn't there a direct progression from one to the other? I don't know a whole lot about the seed.
I've also heard people say that there is a more direct connection between the seed and straight to synanon then there is a connection from CEDU to synanon. Why is that?
Post by: Anonymous on January 20, 2006, 04:07:00 AM
Quote
I've also heard people say that there is a more direct connection between the seed and straight to synanon then there is a connection from CEDU to synanon. Why is that?
Wasn't CEDU highly influenced by est and LifeSpring too?
Post by: try another castle on January 20, 2006, 04:49:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-20 01:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QuoteI've also heard people say that there is a more direct connection between the seed and straight to synanon then there is a connection from CEDU to synanon. Why is that?
Wasn't CEDU highly influenced by est and LifeSpring too?"
CEDU preceded both of those by many years. The one connection I know of is that Mel bought the Lifespring copyright and made it the summit workshop. I don't know about any connections with Weber's encounter groups (est). Both CEDU and est were both products of that whole human potential movement of the 60s, though.
Post by: Antigen on January 20, 2006, 12:47:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-19 20:03:00, sorry... try another castle wrote:
I don't hear nearly enough about how the seed led to straight. Wasn't there a direct progression from one to the other? I don't know a whole lot about the seed.
Oh, it's out there. I know Wes has a good bit about it on his site. Here's the basic story. The Seed used federal expansion funding to expand from Ft. Lauderdale to Miami, St. Pete, Cleveland and, I think, a couple of other locations that just didn't last. In `74, they lost the federal funding due to a damning senate report comparing their methods to Korean brainwashing. So they pulled in their horns and cut back to just the Ft. Laud location. Two years later, half a dozen Seed parents and some Seed graduates set up shop in St. Pete under the name Straight, Inc.
Now, my family was involved w/ the Seed in Ft. Lauderdale from `70 or so till sometime in the very late `70's. So, while I didn't sit in group w/ them, I was intimately familiar w/ the program and program culture. Straight was just about exactly like the seed, only w/ polo shirts instead of tshirts--just a tad more republican and southern religion thrown in, whereas Art was a Social Democrat and vocal atheist.
We don't really know how the Synanon lingo and practices came to the Seed. I asked John Underwood about that just a few months ago (you can find his posts on The Seed Discussion Forum) and he said they got all that second hand; that it was just the generic stock culture and practices of drug rehabs everywhere in that day.
Not sure I believe him, but I don't have any proof to the contrary or better info than that.
Vain are the thousand creeds that move men's hearts, unutterably vain, worthless as wither'd weeds.
--Emily Bronte
Post by: try another castle on January 20, 2006, 08:32:00 PM
Quote
We don't really know how the Synanon lingo and practices came to the Seed. I asked John Underwood about that just a few months ago (you can find his posts on The Seed Discussion Forum) and he said they got all that second hand; that it was just the generic stock culture and practices of drug rehabs everywhere in that day.
If that is the case, then I wonder why the seed is considered more closely allied with synanon than CEDU? Mel worked directly with synanon, after all.
Not like it's a contest or anything, though. Just curious.
And yes, that kind of stuff is very much like the korean brainwashing stuff. I don't know if you've ever seen any tapes or documentaries about the korean system of abuse for american POWs, but I believe one of their ideologies was that you could win more converts with a smile than a frown. Prisoners were rewarded for their conformity and punished for their disobedience. Wheras normal POW camps, I believe, offered no, or very little, reward for conformity. You just may have gotten out of getting tortured that day, or maybe not. It definitely reminds me a lot of the torture scenes in 1984, where O'Brian is shooting electricity through Winston's body one moment, and comforting him in his arms the next.
Post by: Antigen on January 21, 2006, 03:54:00 PM
The other thing is that, bad as CEDU was, I don't think it generated anywhere near the media attention that Straight did.
I think Wes Fager's muck raking probably has a bit to do w/ the strong public perception of Straight=Synanon. I know the TC industry associations themselves mention Synanon occasionally in their own versions of their history. But I think Wes is the one who really has trumpeted that particular fact.
Then there's the effect of geography. Straight and the Seed located right on the East Coast, right in town. I think that was part of their downfall. In the Tampa/St. Pete area you just can't swing a dead cat w/o hitting a program vet or someone else w/ fairly direct ties to either The Seed, Straight, LIFE, DFAF, etc. When my friends did that conference a couple of years back, they put up a billboard on a major highway there in town and it drew a lot of participants and even more folks who skipped the conference and just went to the websites.
I can't imagine where you'd put such a billboard to hit CEDU vets.
I don't go lookin' for trouble. I just keep a little in a box should someone come by who is.
--Bill Warbis