Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: shopgirl2005 on January 09, 2006, 05:15:00 PM
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I'm a desperate parent looking for feedback on a few boardings schools I'm considering for my son.
I've read awful things on this site and i'm very concern.
The schools we are considering are: Swift River Academy or Hidden Lake Academy.
Can someone who have attended any of them give me their opinion, Please???
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On 2006-01-09 14:15:00, shopgirl2005 wrote:
"I'm a desperate parent looking for feedback on a few boardings schools I'm considering for my son.
I've read awful things on this site and i'm very concern.
The schools we are considering are: Swift River Academy or Hidden Lake Academy.
Can someone who have attended any of them give me their opinion, Please???"
ShopGirl,
You are right to be concerned. There is a long history of abuses and treatment failure at behavior modification centers like ASR and HLA.
I can speak directly to HLA and would strongly urge you not to consider this program. They are a typical BM facility wrapped up in a shiny $7000.00 per month wrapper. The methods they employ and hold out as "treatment" amount to nothing more than punishment for hire.
They use a Large Group Awareness seminar model which can be extremely psychologically damaging, especially to the developing mind. They also use bizarre confrontational "therapy" groups.
The methods and techniques that both of these facilities use are on the abuse watchlist at ISAC's (International Survivors Action Committee) website. They limit or eliminate contact between you and your child, censor mail and telephone calls, use extreme physical labor for punishment and many other suspect and/or illegal practices. I'd suggest you look at ISAC's website and familiarize yourself with what abusive practices look like.
This exerpt form a recent article at AskQuestions.org tells a lot about this type of program:
"On October 15, 2004, the National Institute of Mental Health, an agency of the Federal government, released a study reporting that 'Get Tough' youth programs do not work and may make behavior problems even worse. The report instead recommends two treatment programs that offer intensive counseling for famlies and young people at risk, including Functional Family Therapy and Multisystematic Therapy. A press release about the study is posted at the NIH site http://www.nih.gov (http://www.nih.gov)."
Recent releases of data from longitudianl studies of these BM programs shows them to be at best ineffective and at worst incredibly damaging. You may want to read some of that research at NIH.gov.
As far as HLA specifically, when I worked there many staff were completely unqualified possessing no degrees at all. Some employees, like the Director of Counseling, who was the "professional therapist" ultimately responsible for children's treatment had a phony doctorate degree from an unaccredited diploma mill called LaSalle College in Mandeville, LA which has been long shut down for issuing phony degrees. Incedentally, I discussed this at length with the owner of the facility and he was well aware that the "doctor" was no doctor.
Recently there have been allegations of sexual relations between the current Administration staff and underage females under the care of the facility. It has been reported that a high-ranking staff member was fired for sex abuse and quietly rehired and promoted after the girl left the facility. Other former attendees of the program have reported on this site that other staff members had sexual relations and inappropriate relationships with them.
As far as ASR is concerned, they have had many problems as well. They hired the former Headmaster from HLA as their director. This man (I worked with him) came from the CEDU system which has been shut down due to lawsuits related to child abuse and fraud. He was very abusive and inappropriate to the children and was known (he freely admitted it) to have killed a man in a drunken driving incident. When I reported to this fellow that a colleague of mine was abusing cocaine, he took no action.
There is literally too much to list here in this post, but you should familiarize yourself with some of the horror stories from these facilities.
I would reccommend that you look into some kind of commumity based outpatient therapy. If your son is in need of more care than this, then these facilities are not able, nor are they licensed to provide it. If you do decide (with the counsel of a seasoned mental health professional who specializes in treating adolescents) that inpatient placement is needed (only about 1% of kids meet this threshold), be sure it is local to you so that you may monitor your son's treatment and progress.
OK, I think that's a good start for you. I don't want to overwhelm you. Do some more research and consult your child's therapist (DO NOT CONSULT WITH AN EDUCATIONAL CONSULTANT IN REGARD TO MENTAL HEALTH TREATMENT - they are paid by programs like HLA and ASR to refer to their facilities) about the best course of action for your child. Remember, this is your baby and your responsibility. Sending him off to strangers to be "fixed" is not going to work.
If you'd like to talk privately, feel free to Private Message me.
Take care and good luck.
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Shopgirl,
I would recommend posting on the HLA forum where others are more likely to see your request and respond.
There is an abundance of information there if you are willing to selectively wade through the threads.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewforum.php?forum=41&3910 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewforum.php?forum=41&3910)
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I know someone who was sent to Swift River. They deprived her of *books* to *read*.
They deprived her of contact with friends and family other than her parents. Not just drugged up friends. I know one of the friends they cut off contact with and she (the friend) was not only a couple of years older and a young coed--so not a "bad influence" through immaturity, she's one of the sweetest, most clean-cut girls you could hope to meet. Beautiful girl, sweet, done well in school--just what any parent would want their child to be.
The girl who was sent there was *also* beautiful, sweet, clean cut. In her case, it was her parents who were nuts. She didn't like her step dad and he was real offended that she didn't want to tell him "I love you."
She came out of Swift River having learned one fundamental thing about herself. That her parents were really dysfunctional and she never wanted to live under the same roof with her mother ever again.
Which, in her case, I guess was a pretty healthy thing to learn, but learning it sounds like a happy accident.
From all accounts I've heard, my personal opinion is that Swift River is less bad than HLA, and *much* less bad than any WWASPS facility.
But "less bad" doesn't mean I'd send a kid there. Mine or anyone else's.
Facilities are *not* one size fits all, and (obviously) they aren't the only solutions.
It might help a lot if you could tell us what kind of things you're scared about with your daughter.
I have a ten year old. I'm convinced that all parents are frequently scared spitless for our children. Parents who aren't must not be paying attention. :wink:
I'm not minimizing your concerns and fears.
What I'd suggest you do first is take advantage of the wealth of experience a lot of the other parents here, and people who were placed in programs as kids, have to get their advice.
They may not come up with anything you haven't already tried. On the other hand, they might. Or they might come up with ways of trying the various options that are different from what you've tried before.
The truth is that nobody has a magic solution to anybody's serious problems---whether the person with the problems is teen or adult.
The Programs sure don't have it, but we other parents don't have it either.
What we can do is help you find choices and options that are the most likely to give you the best chances of good results helping your daughter do the best she can.
A lot of people on here, like Ginger, who posts as Antigen and runs this board, have grown children and have already been through the whole teenagers scaring your hair white thing.
Julie
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Hello shopgirl -- My daughter went to Swift river and did very well. She was there for about 16 months and some of what you heard form the above posts were true. She was denied access to her old friends (which in her case was a good thing) access to certain books and music were not allowed. She spent a great deal of time working on herself and catching up on her school work. They have an approval process and your son will need to be evaluated prior to acceptance. The place is very safe, no fences, you can walk through and speak to students walking around which will give you a sense of whether it will be a good fit for your son. She has been out for 2 years now and is doing great.
If you want more info let me know
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Okay, let me elaborate on "access to certain books and music." This child was a science fiction fan and wasn't allowed books to read. We are not talking about Aleister Crowley's "Diary of a Drug Fiend," we're talking about garden-variety commercial fiction.
"Certain books" doesn't mean books that have any kind of "bad influence" content. Some of the books on her "approved list" were science fiction.
What they were doing was limiting her access to new reading material in the sense of depriving her of things to read, just for the sole purpose of keeping her from having anything to read.
I sent her a box of the "approved" books anonymously, at Christmastime. She had been there since Summer, so was presumably more thoroughly indoctrinated by then. Most Programs put kids in states of deprivation and use removing small bits of that deprivation as a tool to train in mindless, blind obedience.
So initially, not being allowed stuff to read was part of putting the kid in that state of deprivation.
It's not psychologically healthy to do that to a human being.
Being in a state of deprivation because you're poor, or from hard times, or a natural disaster, or shortages is different from having someone do it to you, on purpose, to tamper with your mind.
Pay attention to the kid who said that even though he "feels helped" he still has nightmares about the place.
ASR is one of the few places that made the mistake of allowing an actual scientific study to be done of a sample of its graduates.
A huge majority "felt helped" about mental health stuff and felt that ASR had been good for them, and reported feeling better, less depressed, etc. And a huge majority of parents of the sample felt their kid had been helped.
When the researcher applied objective methods and tests, their rates of clinical depression, suicide attempts, etc. were completely unimproved.
So the bottom line is that they "felt helped," but objective, scientific measures found that it was all illusory. The things they said they felt helped about, they in fact had not been helped about. At all.
I know, there are other things you can ask about besides depression: drug abuse, school performance, etc.
But nobody ever got to ask those questions in clinical studies, because ASR never okayed another scientific study.
Most Programs don't want to cooperate with scientific studies, because the various scientific research that does exist on them shows they don't work.
They're expensive, and they don't work.
The thing is, there are other solutions to most of these problems that *do* have scientifically provable good success rates.
"Feeling helped" is not the same thing as really being helped.
I'm not saying this woman, if she is a parent (some program employees have posted here in the past claiming to be parents), doesn't genuinely "feel helped." I am not calling her a liar.
I'm just saying there's a huge difference between feeling helped and being helped.
One reason a lot of parents "feel helped" when they send their child to one of these places is the, "Oh, Johnny, how much you've grown!" effect.
When an aunt or uncle hasn't seen your six year old since he was four, it looks like he's grown really fast. When you're raising a child from age four to age six, you can see that he's growing, but the change isn't so dramatic to you.
Teenagers grow up, not because anybody's necessarily done anything for them. Even teenagers who have horrible circumstances grow up a lot just by getting a year older. There isn't a program out there that won't take credit for the entire growth or improvement in a kid they've had for a year, if there is any, while encouraging the parents to never think about how much of the kid's improvement is just being a year older.
This is made easier by the normal feelings of any parent of any kid going through a difficult patch---it feels as if your kid will *never* grow out of it.
You'd do better to send your child to a traditional boarding school. You find them by googling "prep school" instead of "boarding school." Boarding school gets you places like ASR, prep school gets you traditional boarding schools.
If what your kid needs is time away from home, and time away from a rough crowd he's getting in trouble with, prep school is a much better choice. If he has mental health problems on top of that, then paying for him to see a therapist or psychiatrist (both, if needed) in town while at the prep school is a better and probably much less expensive choice.
I'm not saying don't get your son help, I'm not even saying don't send him to a boarding school. I'm just saying there are better choices.
These Programs cost the Earth and they don't work. There are other things out there that do work. Those things frequently cost less.
Which particular choices are better for your son depends on what kinds of problems he's having.
The thing with a Program is that even if your kid comes out undamaged, you're usually paying too much for too little.
As with most things, you can't trust the advertising brochures. Only with Programs, the track record for how much you can't trust the brochures is a lot worse.
At worst, your kid can get really harmed. At best, you pay too much money for getting too little.
Which is especially sad when there are options that cost less that actually work.
Julie
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Shopgirl -- As you see you will get many sides to each story. Julies' friend probably wasnt helped by the program from the sound of it, not everyone does benefit. If you get time take a look at http://www.davemarcus.com (http://www.davemarcus.com). Dave spent a year and a half following a group of kids through their entire stay (independent writer who has written many books on family issues). You will get to see the good and bad, ups and downs of the place from an outsiders perspective (one more point of view!!)
Most kids that are there call it "The Bubble" because their world is so small (limited access to external stimuli) that they feel safe and can work on themselves, ASR is nice also because they include the whole family not just the child. They dont feel it is necessarily the child who is in crisis, but the whole family.
Good luck
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On 2006-01-10 05:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Shopgirl -- As you see you will get many sides to each story. Julies' friend probably wasnt helped by the program from the sound of it, not everyone does benefit. If you get time take a look at http://www.davemarcus.com (http://www.davemarcus.com). Dave spent a year and a half following a group of kids through their entire stay (independent writer who has written many books on family issues). You will get to see the good and bad, ups and downs of the place from an outsiders perspective (one more point of view!!)
Most kids that are there call it "The Bubble" because their world is so small (limited access to external stimuli) that they feel safe and can work on themselves, ASR is nice also because they include the whole family not just the child. They dont feel it is necessarily the child who is in crisis, but the whole family.
Good luck"
I have read the Dave Marcus article. One thing I want you to understand is that everything in the article comes froma single source - ASR staff. Mr. Marcus failed to do any research whatsoever to uncover the facts that contraindicate what ASR fed him.
It's worth noting that his primary source, Rudy Bentz, is a career child abuser who came up inthe CEDU schools (now closed for abuse), was fired from HLA, was (subsequent to the article) fired from ASR and who is now no longer working in the industry - his abusive reputation and utter incompetence having "caught up with him."
It is ironic that Mr. Marcus uses a notorious abuser as his single source for painting the program in a positive light. It shows clearly that this is a shill piece bereft of and investigation r fact-checking.
You might want to look to a real source, like the many studies done that prove what Mr. Bentz states in Mr. Marcus' article is patently false.
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On 2006-01-10 05:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Okay, let me elaborate on "access to certain books and music." This child was a science fiction fan and wasn't allowed books to read. We are not talking about Aleister Crowley's "Diary of a Drug Fiend," we're talking about garden-variety commercial fiction.
"Certain books" doesn't mean books that have any kind of "bad influence" content. Some of the books on her "approved list" were science fiction.
What they were doing was limiting her access to new reading material in the sense of depriving her of things to read, just for the sole purpose of keeping her from having anything to read.
I sent her a box of the "approved" books anonymously, at Christmastime. She had been there since Summer, so was presumably more thoroughly indoctrinated by then. Most Programs put kids in states of deprivation and use removing small bits of that deprivation as a tool to train in mindless, blind obedience.
So initially, not being allowed stuff to read was part of putting the kid in that state of deprivation.
It's not psychologically healthy to do that to a human being.
Being in a state of deprivation because you're poor, or from hard times, or a natural disaster, or shortages is different from having someone do it to you, on purpose, to tamper with your mind.
Pay attention to the kid who said that even though he "feels helped" he still has nightmares about the place.
ASR is one of the few places that made the mistake of allowing an actual scientific study to be done of a sample of its graduates.
A huge majority "felt helped" about mental health stuff and felt that ASR had been good for them, and reported feeling better, less depressed, etc. And a huge majority of parents of the sample felt their kid had been helped.
When the researcher applied objective methods and tests, their rates of clinical depression, suicide attempts, etc. were completely unimproved.
So the bottom line is that they "felt helped," but objective, scientific measures found that it was all illusory. The things they said they felt helped about, they in fact had not been helped about. At all.
I know, there are other things you can ask about besides depression: drug abuse, school performance, etc.
But nobody ever got to ask those questions in clinical studies, because ASR never okayed another scientific study.
Most Programs don't want to cooperate with scientific studies, because the various scientific research that does exist on them shows they don't work.
They're expensive, and they don't work.
The thing is, there are other solutions to most of these problems that *do* have scientifically provable good success rates.
"Feeling helped" is not the same thing as really being helped.
I'm not saying this woman, if she is a parent (some program employees have posted here in the past claiming to be parents), doesn't genuinely "feel helped." I am not calling her a liar.
I'm just saying there's a huge difference between feeling helped and being helped.
One reason a lot of parents "feel helped" when they send their child to one of these places is the, "Oh, Johnny, how much you've grown!" effect.
When an aunt or uncle hasn't seen your six year old since he was four, it looks like he's grown really fast. When you're raising a child from age four to age six, you can see that he's growing, but the change isn't so dramatic to you.
Teenagers grow up, not because anybody's necessarily done anything for them. Even teenagers who have horrible circumstances grow up a lot just by getting a year older. There isn't a program out there that won't take credit for the entire growth or improvement in a kid they've had for a year, if there is any, while encouraging the parents to never think about how much of the kid's improvement is just being a year older.
This is made easier by the normal feelings of any parent of any kid going through a difficult patch---it feels as if your kid will *never* grow out of it.
You'd do better to send your child to a traditional boarding school. You find them by googling "prep school" instead of "boarding school." Boarding school gets you places like ASR, prep school gets you traditional boarding schools.
If what your kid needs is time away from home, and time away from a rough crowd he's getting in trouble with, prep school is a much better choice. If he has mental health problems on top of that, then paying for him to see a therapist or psychiatrist (both, if needed) in town while at the prep school is a better and probably much less expensive choice.
I'm not saying don't get your son help, I'm not even saying don't send him to a boarding school. I'm just saying there are better choices.
These Programs cost the Earth and they don't work. There are other things out there that do work. Those things frequently cost less.
Which particular choices are better for your son depends on what kinds of problems he's having.
The thing with a Program is that even if your kid comes out undamaged, you're usually paying too much for too little.
As with most things, you can't trust the advertising brochures. Only with Programs, the track record for how much you can't trust the brochures is a lot worse.
At worst, your kid can get really harmed. At best, you pay too much money for getting too little.
Which is especially sad when there are options that cost less that actually work.
Julie"
You surely can't mean that not being allowed to read science fiction is deprivation? You can't really believe that changing any aspect of a kid's life that they happen to enjoy is deprivation? Do you really think that the term "deprivation" has different meanings for different people?
Either you have your basic needs met (a la Maslow, for instance), or you don't. Your claim is silly.
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On 2006-01-10 07:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
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On 2006-01-10 05:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Shopgirl -- As you see you will get many sides to each story. Julies' friend probably wasnt helped by the program from the sound of it, not everyone does benefit. If you get time take a look at http://www.davemarcus.com (http://www.davemarcus.com). Dave spent a year and a half following a group of kids through their entire stay (independent writer who has written many books on family issues). You will get to see the good and bad, ups and downs of the place from an outsiders perspective (one more point of view!!)
Most kids that are there call it "The Bubble" because their world is so small (limited access to external stimuli) that they feel safe and can work on themselves, ASR is nice also because they include the whole family not just the child. They dont feel it is necessarily the child who is in crisis, but the whole family.
Good luck"
I have read the Dave Marcus article. One thing I want you to understand is that everything in the article comes froma single source - ASR staff. Mr. Marcus failed to do any research whatsoever to uncover the facts that contraindicate what ASR fed him.
It's worth noting that his primary source, Rudy Bentz, is a career child abuser who came up inthe CEDU schools (now closed for abuse), was fired from HLA, was (subsequent to the article) fired from ASR and who is now no longer working in the industry - his abusive reputation and utter incompetence having "caught up with him."
It is ironic that Mr. Marcus uses a notorious abuser as his single source for painting the program in a positive light. It shows clearly that this is a shill piece bereft of and investigation r fact-checking.
You might want to look to a real source, like the many studies done that prove what Mr. Bentz states in Mr. Marcus' article is patently false."
Wow you really have it out for this school, you must have had a bad experience, but you have been misinformed. What you say is false. Dave Marcus wrote a book not an article. I know him and I was there during his stay and he wrote it thru the eyes of the students there and their experiences, not Mr Bentz. Rudy wasnt fired.
Reading the book is a great way to see what a child may go thru during their stay there.
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When the researcher applied objective methods and tests, their rates of clinical depression, suicide attempts, etc. were completely unimproved.
So the bottom line is that they "felt helped," but objective, scientific measures found that it was all illusory. The things they said they felt helped about, they in fact had not been helped about. At all.
I know, there are other things you can ask about besides depression: drug abuse, school performance, etc.
But nobody ever got to ask those questions in clinical studies, because ASR never okayed another scientific study.
Julie -- If this is true it is huge!! Who conducted the clinical Studies? What types of measures were used? Which agency? Are you just making all this stuff up?
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So they didn't fire Rudy Bentz? How would you know this? Also, if they didn't fire him, why would they keep someone there who has a long, documented, serious history of abusing children in his care?
How do you explain a man like Rudy Bentz being the director of a therapeutic facility when he has absolutely no credentials whatsover to provide or oversee therapy? How could he have been hired in the first place? Was his employment and criminal history not properly vetted? If not, why not?
Let's also be sure to let people know of ASR's ongoing problems with licensure and accreditation. There are some serious ethical questions raised by their behavior in this respect.
All in all, ASR is not licensed or accredited to perform the services they (falsely) claim to deliver, nor do they do proper vetting of staff background. This certainly isn't the type of place I would send my child.
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So they didn't fire Rudy Bentz? How would you know this? Also, if they didn't fire him, why would they keep someone there who has a long, documented, serious history of abusing children in his care?
This is something you made up. He has no documented history of child abuse.
How do you explain a man like Rudy Bentz being the director of a therapeutic facility when he has absolutely no credentials whatsover to provide or oversee therapy? How could he have been hired in the first place? Was his employment and criminal history not properly vetted? If not, why not?
I know the man personally, what type of credentials did ASR asked for? I dont think we know, He was hired on as "head master" and did a great job as far as we know. I havent seen him in court or jail for all this abuse you claim. In Massachusetts a person would be in jail after one substantiated case of abuse of a minor, in any setting.
Let's also be sure to let people know of ASR's ongoing problems with licensure and accreditation. There are some serious ethical questions raised by their behavior in this respect.
They let you know they are not accredited in the state of massachusetts in the initial interview. They have a school with qualified teachers and are overseen by the state, but they are not accredited (The town next to where I live, the high school is unaccredited also). The accreditation can be major reasons or as minor as not enough books in the library, square feet per student etc.. My daughter was way ahead academically when she returned home in comparison to her peers at school
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On 2006-01-10 09:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"When the researcher applied objective methods and tests, their rates of clinical depression, suicide attempts, etc. were completely unimproved.
So the bottom line is that they "felt helped," but objective, scientific measures found that it was all illusory. The things they said they felt helped about, they in fact had not been helped about. At all.
I know, there are other things you can ask about besides depression: drug abuse, school performance, etc.
But nobody ever got to ask those questions in clinical studies, because ASR never okayed another scientific study.
Julie -- If this is true it is huge!! Who conducted the clinical Studies? What types of measures were used? Which agency? Are you just making all this stuff up?"
Dont sweat it, she is just making it all up, no clinical studies were ever done.
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***Most kids that are there call it "The Bubble" because their world is so small (limited access to external stimuli) that they feel safe and can work on themselves***
And many have expressed that they had distress re-entering the real world. Living in a isolated controlled environment (BM bubble), being told what to do and think 24/7, caused them to have social anxiety, to hold self and others to unrealistic expectations (program rhetoric doesn?t work in the real world), PTSD, and a basic lack of trust.
***ASR is nice also because they include the whole family not just the child. They dont feel it is necessarily the child who is in crisis, but the whole family.***
That is not ?unique? to ASR, they all claim to involve the family, but how can family be involved when they are thousands of miles away?
***You surely can't mean that not being allowed to read science fiction is deprivation? You can't really believe that changing any aspect of a kid's life that they happen to enjoy is deprivation? Do you really think that the term "deprivation" has different meanings for different people?***
Indeed it does. How would reading SF (or any other pleasure reading) during their precious little free-time from 24/7 ?therapy?, be counter productive? It?s not. But deprivation IS necessary for brainwashing to be effective. Deprivation of rights, deprivation of contact, deprivation of touch, deprivation of accurate information about self and the world, deprivation of nutritional sustenance/ decent food, etc. Deprivation of the choice of what to read is just one in a long list of ptoential deprivations, depending on the program.
***Either you have your basic needs met (a la Maslow, for instance), or you don't. Your claim is silly.***
Can?t speak to ASR on this issue, but I haven?t seen a program yet that provided Maslow?s Heirarchy of Needs. I have seen a lot of deprivation of Needs in order to gain compliance.
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On 2006-01-10 09:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
" So they didn't fire Rudy Bentz? How would you know this? Also, if they didn't fire him, why would they keep someone there who has a long, documented, serious history of abusing children in his care?
This is something you made up. He has no documented history of child abuse.
How do you explain a man like Rudy Bentz being the director of a therapeutic facility when he has absolutely no credentials whatsover to provide or oversee therapy? How could he have been hired in the first place? Was his employment and criminal history not properly vetted? If not, why not?
I know the man personally, what type of credentials did ASR asked for? I dont think we know, He was hired on as "head master" and did a great job as far as we know. I havent seen him in court or jail for all this abuse you claim. In Massachusetts a person would be in jail after one substantiated case of abuse of a minor, in any setting.
Let's also be sure to let people know of ASR's ongoing problems with licensure and accreditation. There are some serious ethical questions raised by their behavior in this respect.
They let you know they are not accredited in the state of massachusetts in the initial interview. They have a school with qualified teachers and are overseen by the state, but they are not accredited (The town next to where I live, the high school is unaccredited also). The accreditation can be major reasons or as minor as not enough books in the library, square feet per student etc.. My daughter was way ahead academically when she returned home in comparison to her peers at school
"
Wow. The lies and disinformation in this post are astounding.
As far as Mr. Bentz is concerned, he DOES have a long history of abusing children. Do a search of his name and you'll see that history as told by the abused.
You didn't answer the question of how ASR hired a man with absolutely no credentails whatsoever to run a (unaccredited, unlicensed) "therapeutic boarding school."
You say he wasn't fired. Other people (with names and faces, not anonymous posters) have said was fired, including parents of kids at the facility.
I think you have a bit of an agenda in defending ASR's serious shortcomings and covering up the sordid history of the drunken vehicular manslaughterer and child abuser Rudy Bentz. I guess what you're saying is that the several dozens of people who were abused by this sick man are prevaricators.
I tend to believe more that one anonymous poster with a vested interest in positive portrayal of ASR would have more reason to lie than the people who were emotionally, psychologically and physically abused over two and a half decades by Mr. Bentz.
I'm sorry, but your story just doesn't square with dozens of first-hand accounts of abuse by this guy.
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And many have expressed that they had distress re-entering the real world. Living in a isolated controlled environment (BM bubble), being told what to do and think 24/7, caused them to have social anxiety, to hold self and others to unrealistic expectations (program rhetoric doesn?t work in the real world), PTSD, and a basic lack of trust.
This is true, any transition from one enviornment to another is difficult, especially when your world has been so small for so many months and then released back into the world. ASR is aware of this short coming with schools of their type and were working to smooth this transition when we left there.
That is not ?unique? to ASR, they all claim to involve the family, but how can family be involved when they are thousands of miles away?
The family members fly in for family visits and to work on differences and family problems. Its not convenient nor cheap, but when your family is in crisis its very high on the priority list.
How would reading SF (or any other pleasure reading) during their precious little free-time from 24/7 ?therapy?, be counter productive? It?s not. But deprivation IS necessary for brainwashing to be effective. Deprivation of rights, deprivation of contact, deprivation of touch, deprivation of accurate information about self and the world, deprivation of nutritional sustenance/ decent food, etc. Deprivation of the choice of what to read is just one in a long list of ptoential deprivations, depending on the program.
There is plenty to read for everyone, they just control what is brought in from the outside, drug issues, wrong messages etc. and it takes time to screen everything. Therapy isnt 24/7 unless you request it. They have swimming, skiing, preparing for group activities, lots of homework and reading. Television (limited). Preparing for life steps etc.
There is very little down time, always busy, which means busy reading, busy watching a movie etc. Food isnt bad, they cater to alergys, vegan etc. There is no deprivation that I was aware of.
-
QUOTE: ***You surely can't mean that not being allowed to read science fiction is deprivation? You can't really believe that changing any aspect of a kid's life that they happen to enjoy is deprivation? Do you really think that the term "deprivation" has different meanings for different people?***
Indeed it does. How would reading SF (or any other pleasure reading) during their precious little free-time from 24/7 ?therapy?, be counter productive? It?s not. But deprivation IS necessary for brainwashing to be effective. Deprivation of rights, deprivation of contact, deprivation of touch, deprivation of accurate information about self and the world, deprivation of nutritional sustenance/ decent food, etc. Deprivation of the choice of what to read is just one in a long list of ptoential deprivations, depending on the program.
END QUOTE
So deprivation consists of withholding anything not deemd "counterproductive?" Your logic doesn't hold up. What about the fact that most programs don't supply hot tubs, magnifying make-up mirrors, or cell phones? After all, this is what many of the kids have at home, as do their peers.
Deprivation for the sake of mind-control has to do with truly depriving one of basic needs: food and shelter. I can't speak to this particular program, but calling a lack of sci-fi deprivation indicates that you're suffering under the same delusion the kids in the programs do: without their toys and any method of gratification or stimulus they demand, they're worthless and unable to function. I think you're selling them short.
-
Wow. The lies and disinformation in this post are astounding.
As far as Mr. Bentz is concerned, he DOES have a long history of abusing children. Do a search of his name and you'll see that history as told by the abused.
You didn't answer the question of how ASR hired a man with absolutely no credentails whatsoever to run a (unaccredited, unlicensed) "therapeutic boarding school."
You say he wasn't fired. Other people (with names and faces, not anonymous posters) have said was fired, including parents of kids at the facility.
I think you have a bit of an agenda in defending ASR's serious shortcomings and covering up the sordid history of the drunken vehicular manslaughterer and child abuser Rudy Bentz. I guess what you're saying is that the several dozens of people who were abused by this sick man are prevaricators.
I tend to believe more that one anonymous poster with a vested interest in positive portrayal of ASR would have more reason to lie than the people who were emotionally, psychologically and physically abused over two and a half decades by Mr. Bentz.
I'm sorry, but your story just doesn't square with dozens of first-hand accounts of abuse by this guy.
I am sorry, you can say what you may, you feel I have an agenda thats okay. I am telling my experience and first hand knowledge to someone who asked and how it help our family.
You say he is unqualified (what specific experience are you looking for?) and a child abuser (Where are the court records they should be public) and clinical studies have been done to back up some of your allegations. The man has never been arrested and I searched for Clinical studies and there just are not any. Everyone knows, who watch the news, that if someone is abusing kids in a school setting isnt going to be allowed near kids again and this just hasnt happened, where are your facts. I am stating my personal experience from my view point, I dont claim to have studies or documented evidence to back me up.
Just myself and my family, have a little respect, I am one opinion, if you think there are thousands of negative opinions out there just ignore mine the others will surface in time.
-
No studies? Are you nuts? You must not have done even a cursory review of materials out there.
NAMH, NIH both released studies showing that RTC treatment doesn't work and makes behavior WORSE in the kids exposed to them. See askquestions.org for a jumping off point to the research claim "deosn't exist."
I know Rudy Bentz. I know dozens of kids abused by him. You can't tell me it didn't happen. Just because someone hasn't been arrested (he does have an arrest record though, you just didn't look for it), charged and convicted of abuse doesn't mean it didn't happen. Since you seem to know nothing of RTC's, let me inform you that kids have no mechanism to report abuse (they are denied contact with the outside world including reporting agencies) and often if they do report, it's a question of the "troubled kid's word" against the staff.
I have personally seen Rudy Bentz physically abuse children. You can't say it didn't happen. You weren't there, I was. So were many others abused at his hands.
You luckily escaped the abuse that many endured. Good for you. It doesn't make you right.
-
On 2006-01-10 11:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"No studies? Are you nuts? You must not have done even a cursory review of materials out there.
NAMH, NIH both released studies showing that RTC treatment doesn't work and makes behavior WORSE in the kids exposed to them. See askquestions.org for a jumping off point to the research claim "deosn't exist."
I know Rudy Bentz. I know dozens of kids abused by him. You can't tell me it didn't happen. Just because someone hasn't been arrested (he does have an arrest record though, you just didn't look for it), charged and convicted of abuse doesn't mean it didn't happen. Since you seem to know nothing of RTC's, let me inform you that kids have no mechanism to report abuse (they are denied contact with the outside world including reporting agencies) and often if they do report, it's a question of the "troubled kid's word" against the staff.
I have personally seen Rudy Bentz physically abuse children. You can't say it didn't happen. You weren't there, I was. So were many others abused at his hands.
You luckily escaped the abuse that many endured. Good for you. It doesn't make you right."
No not NAMH or NIH, I asked about the clinical study you claim was done at ASR But nobody ever got to ask those questions in clinical studies, because ASR never okayed another scientific study.
your words not mine.
You mention that ASR is trying to cover-up his criminal past:I think you have a bit of an agenda in defending ASR's serious shortcomings and covering up the sordid history of the drunken vehicular manslaughterer and child abuser Rudy Bentz
your words not mine
Where is this cover-up? When were they brought forward and then refused to be made public knowledge by ASR?
Now, seriously after all these posts, and after I catch you in a ton of lies, you keep changing your story. Now you claim to have first hand knowledge and have personally witnessed the abuse, sorry I just cant buy it.
Next time make your claims upfront and be honest with your information.
You claim I have an agenda !!!
-
You're mixing me up with Julie. Get your POSTS straight and look into the research I quoted.
You clearly DO have an agenda because you're willing to mix posts from different sources and use discrepencies to say people are lying.
READ FOR COMPREHENSION, then comment.
I said YOU were covering up Rudy's past, not ASR. He was arrested for killing a man he struck with his car while driving drunk. If you don't believe me, ask him. He's made it public knowledge for years. So, yes, you're lying about his past (he admits it, why wouldn't you?).
There are entire threads here dedicated to "Rudy Bentz - Abusive Animal." Just search his name as I suggested. Get your head out of the sand and wake up to the facts. You OBVIOUSLY don't know this guy or you would know about his drunken driving killing escapade.
(
-
***They have a school with qualified teachers and are overseen by the state, but they are not accredited***
Which state agency 'oversees' them?
Not accredited, and no one monitors their behavior modification techniqes.
Those are considered red flags.
-
On 2006-01-10 12:30:00, Deborah wrote:
"***They have a school with qualified teachers and are overseen by the state, but they are not accredited***
Which state agency 'oversees' them?
Not accredited, and no one monitors their behavior modification techniqes.
Those are considered red flags.
"
BIG red flags. Not to mention that the credits are worth dick for transfer or college application. :roll:
According to state law ASR cannot issue dilpomas for their so-called "graduates" either. Sounds like a lot of kids are going backwards there, just like at Academy at Ivy Ridge. No accreditation - no diploma or transferable credits.
Some "school" huh?
-
On 2006-01-10 12:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-01-10 12:30:00, Deborah wrote:
"***They have a school with qualified teachers and are overseen by the state, but they are not accredited***
Which state agency 'oversees' them?
Not accredited, and no one monitors their behavior modification techniqes.
Those are considered red flags.
"
BIG red flags. Not to mention that the credits are worth dick for transfer or college application. :roll:
According to state law ASR cannot issue dilpomas for their so-called "graduates" either. Sounds like a lot of kids are going backwards there, just like at Academy at Ivy Ridge. No accreditation - no diploma or transferable credits.
Some "school" huh?
"
What most kids do is take a test at their own highschol along with the courses that they completed when they get back.
ASR explains this on your first meeting.
My daughter was actually ahead of her class when she got back.
It is a pain, but most families arent looking soley for academics, the families are usually in crisis and the kid isnt going to school anyway.
If you are looking for just academics you would look elsewhere, and yes you are right they cannot issue diplomas.
-
On 2006-01-10 12:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You're mixing me up with Julie. Get your POSTS straight and look into the research I quoted.
You clearly DO have an agenda because you're willing to mix posts from different sources and use discrepencies to say people are lying.
READ FOR COMPREHENSION, then comment.
I said YOU were covering up Rudy's past, not ASR. He was arrested for killing a man he struck with his car while driving drunk. If you don't believe me, ask him. He's made it public knowledge for years. So, yes, you're lying about his past (he admits it, why wouldn't you?).
There are entire threads here dedicated to "Rudy Bentz - Abusive Animal." Just search his name as I suggested. Get your head out of the sand and wake up to the facts. You OBVIOUSLY don't know this guy or you would know about his drunken driving killing escapade.
("
Woops thought you ere julie, yea Rudy told us the drunk driving story when he was young. It would suck if we all had wear our past mistakes on our sleeves. but anyway Rudy has moved on and is no longer at ASR.
Sorry for the confusion, no cover-up, my meaning was with child abuse charges, which there are not any
-
So it's not a "school" at all then. Can't issue diplomas, can't issue transferrable credits. So that's settled.
Now, since academics is not their primary purpose, they can't be registered as a school. Are they properly registered as an RTC? If so, how can they not provide 24/7 therapeutic care?
It looks more and more like this place is not a school and does not provide adequate mental health care either.
They charge an awful lot of money for no credits/diploma and inadequate mental health care. Seems pretty much like your typical money-making "TBS" scam. :roll:
-
On 2006-01-10 13:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"So it's not a "school" at all then. Can't issue diplomas, can't issue transferrable credits. So that's settled.
Now, since academics is not their primary purpose, they can't be registered as a school. Are they properly registered as an RTC? If so, how can they not provide 24/7 therapeutic care?
It looks more and more like this place is not a school and does not provide adequate mental health care either.
They charge an awful lot of money for no credits/diploma and inadequate mental health care. Seems pretty much like your typical money-making "TBS" scam. :roll: "
School: "An institution for the instruction of children or people under college age."
Its a school
-
Oh for crying out loud, here: Rudy Bentz
-
This one's interesting.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=80#82520 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2826&forum=9&start=80#82520)
Before Cedu, Rudy was a kind, gentle man. I don't know if I ever heard him raise his voice in anger. Yes, he had a pretty big ego, but it really appeared to be a cover up for some major personal insecurities. His biggest vice in those days was his love of scotch. And, yes, I knew about the accident where he had hit and killed a man on the highway. He told me that the reason he wasn't charged was because the victim was drunk and had just walked in front of his car on the highway...not that he was cleared because the man was black.
I had visited Cedu - Running Springs a few times while I was still involved with him (1981). What was my impression of what I saw there? Most of you looked so squeaky clean, pleasant and polite. I remember being told that you were not allowed to part your hair in the middle..thought that was pretty odd. A lot of you were hanging on and clinging to each other (all same sex only). Some were bleary eyed. I was there for Thanksgiving dinner and remember one girl who looked extremely distraught. Later found out that she was on kitchen duty having just been brought back from an attempted run away. I felt sad for her.
When Rudy and I were in the process of breaking up, he began to put me through some of the methods he had been learning at Cedu. Trying to have a one on one "profeet" with me. I was very much against the breakup and trying anything to hang on. He even tried to stop me from using the bathroom when I needed to. Said I was "copping out", or something to that effect. I think that was the day I finally slugged him between the eyes and told him to get out of my house. He was not the same person I had known and loved. He also began to turn on another person who had been one of his best friends. None of his former friends could stand being around Jill, and when the 2 of them got together and tried to analyze and do a "profeet" number on him, that pretty much destroyed that friendship.
I made many attempts to contact him over the years. At first it was just to harass him, later I tried to have some contact with him as a "friend" who had been a major part of my life. He never reciprocated in any way. It was as if I had been some major vice in a life that was now behind him...almost as if I never existed.
So, what do I think when I read all of these things about him? I think that he was the perfect candidate for conversion to the Cedu "cult". He had some big voids which were crying to be filled with something other than scotch. Cedu filled that void. Made him feel like a person of power and even paid him to behave in such a way. Rudy hardly earned anything more than minimum wages before he was hired by Cedu. This was the big time for him.
So, I am sorry for all of the damage he did to so many of you. I do hope you are able to recover and be happy. I have since married a truly wonderful, kind, brilliant, talented man. I live in the woods of Montana with our horses, surrounded by nature. Life is good. And I do also hope someday Rudy exits from this dark place he is in and maybe at least feels badly about the pain he caused you and acknowledges that maybe it was not all done for the sake of saving you, rather for the sake of reinventing and empowering himself. He really used to be a good guy....but that was all so long ago.
Be well.
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On 2006-01-10 14:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Oh for crying out loud, here: Rudy Bentz"
Pretty voluminous and sad commentary on his record of "helping kids." :roll:
-
On 2006-01-10 14:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-01-10 13:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"So it's not a "school" at all then. Can't issue diplomas, can't issue transferrable credits. So that's settled.
Now, since academics is not their primary purpose, they can't be registered as a school. Are they properly registered as an RTC? If so, how can they not provide 24/7 therapeutic care?
It looks more and more like this place is not a school and does not provide adequate mental health care either.
They charge an awful lot of money for no credits/diploma and inadequate mental health care. Seems pretty much like your typical money-making "TBS" scam. :roll: "
School: "An institution for the instruction of children or people under college age."
Its a school"
You're being facetious, right? You're some kind of joker? If not, would you send your child to a school that can't possibly give him credits or graduate him?
I wouldn't.
-
On 2006-01-10 15:01:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"
On 2006-01-10 14:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Oh for crying out loud, here: Rudy Bentz"
Pretty voluminous and sad commentary on his record of "helping kids." :roll:
"
Fact: In reality or in truth; actually
fiction:An imaginative creation or a pretense that does not represent actuality but has been invented
Where does this fall?
-
On 2006-01-10 15:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-01-10 15:01:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"
On 2006-01-10 14:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Oh for crying out loud, here: Rudy Bentz"
Pretty voluminous and sad commentary on his record of "helping kids." :roll:
"
Fact: In reality or in truth; actually
fiction:An imaginative creation or a pretense that does not represent actuality but has been invented
Where does this fall?"
It was written by his ex-wife !! How credible is that? If people believed my ex, I would be in jail or dead.
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On 2006-01-10 15:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
It was written by his ex-wife !! How credible is that? If people believed my ex, I would be in jail or dead."
Ex girlfriend who appears to have cared very much about him and was hurt and worried at the changes she saw in him after his indoctrination.
-
On 2006-01-10 15:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-01-10 15:01:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"
On 2006-01-10 14:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Oh for crying out loud, here: Rudy Bentz"
Pretty voluminous and sad commentary on his record of "helping kids." :roll:
"
Fact: In reality or in truth; actually
fiction:An imaginative creation or a pretense that does not represent actuality but has been invented
Where does this fall?"
It falls under the category of fact. I have personally witnessed this man abuse children. I have also attended parties at his home and watched him get stumble-drunk on scotch.
You cannot tell me these aren't facts. You can say whatever you want, but I know the truth and so do many others. Nothing that you can say will invalidate what I know to be true.
It gets awfully tiring to listen to you folks tell people that they did not experience their own experiences. Who are you anyway? What makes you an authority on this guy? All you seem to be doing is calling people who you don't know and never met liars. Are you going to now tell me that I don't know him? That I haven't seen him be incredibly abusive to children? That I never went to any of his parties and saw him bombed on scotch?
Why are the stories people have been telling over the last twenty years so similar to my experiences? Due to the fact that I actually know this guy, I have a basis by which to conclude at least some of what others are saying is factual. I've witnessed it WITH MY OWN TWO EYES and many people who worked with me can verify my statements. At this point the burden of proof is on you to show evidence to the contrary. The record is well-established.
-
You cannot tell me these aren't facts.
I guess you are right.
We must have seen him at two differnt points in his life. I saw and got to know a different person than you did. Maybe he grew since you saw him last maybe we each saw a different side to the same person.
But as far as ASR is concerned he has moved on and it is in the past.
-
On 2006-01-10 15:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You cannot tell me these aren't facts.
I guess you are right.
We must have seen him at two differnt points in his life. I saw and got to know a different person than you did. Maybe he grew since you saw him last maybe we each saw a different side to the same person.
But as far as ASR is concerned he has moved on and it is in the past."
OK, now this is some responsible feedback.
Maybe he did grow since last I saw him. Hell, anything's possible.
My point was that there are many people, spanning decades, that knew someone different from whom you knew. They knew an awful, abusive drunk that had no business working with kids and would not have had that opportunity to abuse were it not for the negligence of CEDU and HLA (I'll take your word on ASR - that he behaved well there) in their hiring of a man with no credentials or education to serve in a therpeutic capacity.
It irritates me greatly sometimes when folks who have had another experience invalidate the experiences of others because it is different from theirs. I think it was unfair and irresponsible of you to insinuate that these poor kids were lying just because you didn't see it happen.
In what capacity did you know him? As a parent of an ASR client? Or did you know him personally outside of the program?
When you interact with someone within the context of your dealing with a program, sometimes what you get is the personality they have developed to deflect criticism or imbue a sense of ease in the parent. Oftentimes this is a far disparate reality from who they are behind closed doors, alone, with children. I saw this with Rudy regularly. He was a perfect gentlemen for the parents and an abusive animal when alone with the kids.
-
It sounds like he matured over the years.
It irritates me greatly sometimes when folks who have had another experience invalidate the experiences of others because it is different from theirs. I think it was unfair and irresponsible of you to insinuate that these poor kids were lying just because you didn't see it happen.
Believe me it goes both ways. I was irritated when someone claimed there were clinical studies done at ASR, the journalist Dave Marcus only interviewed Rudy for his book and then called him a child abuser. In that context knowing the first 2 to be false (first hand) and knowing Rudy as I do. My conclusion made sense and didnot invalidate anyones feelings.
If someone is lying to you about several things its not a stretch to disbelieve everything.
So I cant agree with you on that.
In what capacity did you know him? As a parent of an ASR client? Or did you know him personally outside of the program?
When you interact with someone within the context of your dealing with a program, sometimes what you get is the personality they have developed to deflect criticism or imbue a sense of ease in the parent. Oftentimes this is a far disparate reality from who they are behind closed doors, alone, with children. I saw this with Rudy regularly. He was a perfect gentlemen for the parents and an abusive animal when alone with the kids
I knew him as a parent of a child who attended and threw other children who attended and also outside of ASR.
(I usually get the stock answer that they are all brainwashed to say certain things, believe me if you have ever been to ASR you would not take this position)
-
Fair enough.
One disagreement though. If you find someone to be lying about one point, how does that invalidate the other points that are objectively true?
Let's be honest here. If you took this approach in your normal, everyday life, you would invalidate every statement from every person you've ever met. They haven't built a single, solitary human being yet that doesn't lie. That person simply doesn't exist and never will.
I can guarantee you that you yourself have done quite a bit of lying in your personal history. To say that isn't true is to say that you are inhuman. So, I think you'll have to be a bit more flexible in that respect to retain your full credibility.
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On 2006-01-10 12:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-01-10 11:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"No studies? Are you nuts? You must not have done even a cursory review of materials out there.
NAMH, NIH both released studies showing that RTC treatment doesn't work and makes behavior WORSE in the kids exposed to them. See askquestions.org for a jumping off point to the research claim "deosn't exist."
I know Rudy Bentz. I know dozens of kids abused by him. You can't tell me it didn't happen. Just because someone hasn't been arrested (he does have an arrest record though, you just didn't look for it), charged and convicted of abuse doesn't mean it didn't happen. Since you seem to know nothing of RTC's, let me inform you that kids have no mechanism to report abuse (they are denied contact with the outside world including reporting agencies) and often if they do report, it's a question of the "troubled kid's word" against the staff.
I have personally seen Rudy Bentz physically abuse children. You can't say it didn't happen. You weren't there, I was. So were many others abused at his hands.
You luckily escaped the abuse that many endured. Good for you. It doesn't make you right."
No not NAMH or NIH, I asked about the clinical study you claim was done at ASR But nobody ever got to ask those questions in clinical studies, because ASR never okayed another scientific study.
your words not mine.
You mention that ASR is trying to cover-up his criminal past:I think you have a bit of an agenda in defending ASR's serious shortcomings and covering up the sordid history of the drunken vehicular manslaughterer and child abuser Rudy Bentz
your words not mine
Where is this cover-up? When were they brought forward and then refused to be made public knowledge by ASR?
Now, seriously after all these posts, and after I catch you in a ton of lies, you keep changing your story. Now you claim to have first hand knowledge and have personally witnessed the abuse, sorry I just cant buy it.
Next time make your claims upfront and be honest with your information.
You claim I have an agenda !!!"
http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_p ... hapiro.pdf (http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf)
Here's the link to the study I reference. My comments on it were based on my recollections from when I read it a couple of years ago.
I've got a deadline and don't have a whole lot of time to spend on this.
Julie Cochrane
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On 2006-01-10 11:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
Deprivation for the sake of mind-control has to do with truly depriving one of basic needs: food and shelter.
Or the very basic need we all have to think, alone, in our own minds. To take a break. To have some time when we're not either busy, 24/7 or trying to hurry up and sleep in the hopeless hope of getting enoug sleep. Over the short term, this sort of constant pestering and comanding of the attention of a nonconsenting other is annoying. If it's very persistant, it can cross the line into harassment. Over weeks and months, yeah, it can be torture.
Just imagine you've got a paranoid, jealous, over-controling spouse. Now imagine you've got 50 of them and some of them are taking notes. That about sums up the TBS method. A Freudian slip is when you say one thing but mean your mother.
--Anonymous
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On 2006-01-10 15:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-01-10 15:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
It was written by his ex-wife !! How credible is that? If people believed my ex, I would be in jail or dead."
Ex girlfriend who appears to have cared very much about him and was hurt and worried at the changes she saw in him after his indoctrination. "
Yes, and it's compelling to anyone who's been through a Synanon based program because we've all seen the same sort of horrid transformation take place again and again. Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill it teaches the whole people by example. Crime is contageous. If the government becomes the lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law, it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy.
U.S. Justice Brandeis (1856-1941)
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On 2006-01-10 15:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
I guess you are right.
We must have seen him at two differnt points in his life.
No, I understand he's always been a pretty good bullshitter.
It's obnoxious to ask law enforcement to follow the law. That's insulting to every cop.
--John Lovell, lobbyist for the California police chief's association
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Hi:
I've notice you had a child in ASR and she did well.
In my case my son presents various conditions that is the reason why I'm considering sending him to ASR. He has ADHD, OCD AND ODD. We have explore every option possible at home with his therapists and nothing seems to work long term.
Would it be to much to ask you what made you enroll your daughter in ASR and how was the communication with the therapists. Is she in college already?
My personal e-mail address is eroldan@prw.net
I will really appreciate your comments
Thank you
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Julie:
You can't imagine how much I appreciate your answer. You sounded honest and in the back of my head I had the same ideas but it they were blurry because most of this school advertise themselves as being the best thing and they are not.
I had my concerns, especially because I've research some news clips and the feedback I've gotten from them is not the best.
In fact I hired a educational consultant and even though I trust her I'm not sure she knows how the kids turn out once they go through the process of a therapeutic boarding school.
If possible, I will give you my personal e-mail address to discuss this further. eroldan@prw.net
Karen
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On 2006-01-10 21:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-01-10 12:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-01-10 11:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"No studies? Are you nuts? You must not have done even a cursory review of materials out there.
NAMH, NIH both released studies showing that RTC treatment doesn't work and makes behavior WORSE in the kids exposed to them. See askquestions.org for a jumping off point to the research claim "deosn't exist."
I know Rudy Bentz. I know dozens of kids abused by him. You can't tell me it didn't happen. Just because someone hasn't been arrested (he does have an arrest record though, you just didn't look for it), charged and convicted of abuse doesn't mean it didn't happen. Since you seem to know nothing of RTC's, let me inform you that kids have no mechanism to report abuse (they are denied contact with the outside world including reporting agencies) and often if they do report, it's a question of the "troubled kid's word" against the staff.
I have personally seen Rudy Bentz physically abuse children. You can't say it didn't happen. You weren't there, I was. So were many others abused at his hands.
You luckily escaped the abuse that many endured. Good for you. It doesn't make you right."
No not NAMH or NIH, I asked about the clinical study you claim was done at ASR But nobody ever got to ask those questions in clinical studies, because ASR never okayed another scientific study.
your words not mine.
You mention that ASR is trying to cover-up his criminal past:I think you have a bit of an agenda in defending ASR's serious shortcomings and covering up the sordid history of the drunken vehicular manslaughterer and child abuser Rudy Bentz
your words not mine
Where is this cover-up? When were they brought forward and then refused to be made public knowledge by ASR?
Now, seriously after all these posts, and after I catch you in a ton of lies, you keep changing your story. Now you claim to have first hand knowledge and have personally witnessed the abuse, sorry I just cant buy it.
Next time make your claims upfront and be honest with your information.
You claim I have an agenda !!!"
http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_p ... hapiro.pdf (http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf)
Here's the link to the study I reference. My comments on it were based on my recollections from when I read it a couple of years ago.
I've got a deadline and don't have a whole lot of time to spend on this.
Julie Cochrane"
Now, New ASR Grad's Mom, take a look at the facts Julie presents here. Obviously there has been a study completed about ASR's effectiveness. You stated authoritatively that there was never a study done. You used your statement as a basis to call Julie a liar.
Evidently, she was not lying, but you were (or you were simply ignorant and used your ignorance of the facts as a basis by which to paint Julie as a prevaricator).
I'm not going to use your methodology and say everything you said is a lie simply because you were proven without a shadow of a doubt to be lying about a very important, readily verifiable fact. What I will say, however, is that this revelation throws your credibility into the "doubtful" range.
It does give the reader some justifiable pause in accepting your comments at face value.
What do you have to say in response to the fact that you have not been forthright in your comments regarding Julie's assertion that a study has been completed regarding the efficacy of ASR? Do you still consider her to be a liar with an agenda, or can you now be honest and say (as we have all seen quite clearly) that you are a supplier of biased information designed to support ASR's image and to erode the credibility of those with dissenting viewpoints?
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I am confused. I read this entire thread. I then read all 25 pages of the study written by Valerie Shapiro. In her summary she concluded that ASR and other residential treatment progams are effective and have the potential to be even more effective.
Am I missing something?
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On 2006-01-11 14:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I am confused. I read this entire thread. I then read all 25 pages of the study written by Valerie Shapiro. In her summary she concluded that ASR and other residential treatment progams are effective and have the potential to be even more effective.
Am I missing something? "
No you read it right. I had to hold them to task to get Julie to reveal her sources to base her (and Disfunction Junctions) anti ASR stand. I think there is a line in there that states "65% of the kids go back using drugs."
They focus on this sole finding and disregard the rest (or never read the whole thing)
But it is a nice study (Although not a Clinical trial) which shows that these programs are headed in the right direction. Corporations with deeper pockets (and more to lose) are stepping in and hiring better staff and utilizing models which have a proven track record.
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On 2006-01-11 14:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
Corporations with deeper pockets (and more to lose) are stepping in and hiring better staff :roll: and utilizing models which have a proven track record. "
What models would those be?
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On 2006-01-11 14:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-01-11 14:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
Corporations with deeper pockets (and more to lose) are stepping in and hiring better staff :roll: and utilizing models which have a proven track record. "
What models would those be?"
Therapeutic models. Each school works to a model, which defines how they will deal with situations, life steps or progress thru the program. How and when Behavior modification is used and how. How class is structured etc.
They define and document these and change them daily or weekly and yearly to improve them. If they achieve a highly successful model they can apply this to other programs etc.
Very general discussion, it is much more complicated and involved than what I said.
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On 2006-01-11 14:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-01-11 14:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I am confused. I read this entire thread. I then read all 25 pages of the study written by Valerie Shapiro. In her summary she concluded that ASR and other residential treatment progams are effective and have the potential to be even more effective.
Am I missing something? "
No you read it right. I had to hold them to task to get Julie to reveal her sources to base her (and Disfunction Junctions) anti ASR stand. I think there is a line in there that states "65% of the kids go back using drugs."
They focus on this sole finding and disregard the rest (or never read the whole thing)
But it is a nice study (Although not a Clinical trial) which shows that these programs are headed in the right direction. Corporations with deeper pockets (and more to lose) are stepping in and hiring better staff and utilizing models which have a proven track record. "
One, I never said anything about the results of this study (save for the 65% recidivism rate, which, coincidentally, is 2% higher than prison boot camps, so if you wanted a drug free kid, prison would have been more effective). I only said that Julie was not lying when she said there was a study completed on ASR (a fact that you admit now). You said she was a liar and that this study (who's results you now hold out as evidence that ASR works) did not exist. Funny how you said it didn't exist and then later cited it as a source after you were caught in the lie.
Two, my only comments on this board in the initial discussion were that ASR is unaccredited and cannot issue diplomas, a fact that you readily agree with.
Three, my comments in regard to Rudy Bentz had nothing whatsoever to do with ASR (except their questionable judgement in hiring someone with his history), only that he had a drinking problem, abused kids and killed a man in a drunk driving episode (well documented).
You may try as you like to say that I made statements to other effects, but you, once again, will just be making it up as you go along.
The bottom line is that ASR is unaccredited, that a study was performed (remember, you called Julie a liar) and that Rudy Bentz has a decades long history of abusing children and has been arrested for serious crimes.
I only pointed out that you have a habit of lying about the facts at hand. I attacked your credibility, not the therapy component of ASR's program. This entire dialogue was solely about unaccredited academics until you decided you would make it about other things by calling others liars. I certainly didn't initiate that.
Anyone reading the thread can readily see that you made statements that were demonstrably false. My point during the entire dialogue was that you are a liar. You PERSONALLY are a liar. I didn't lie about anything whatsoever. I never made any claims about ASR other than they were unaccredited and that they hired a man with a long, abundantly documented history of abuse and who has been arrested for drunk driving and vehicular manslaughter. It's all true.
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She concluded it was effective because that's what she wanted to conclude.
Her data, however, does not show that it is effective. This is why you have to read studies carefully, not just look at the abstracts and conclusions.
The data shows that the kids stay in the clinical range for depression and other stuff and that there's no way to rule out maturation as the explanation for the results.
There was also an insanely low response rate-- response rates need to be over 60% or so (depends on sample size and some other things) for you to be able to conclude anything from a study like this, and even then, it's not worth much because there's no control group. Her response rate was somewhere in the 25% range. And her sample size was tiny.
Also, 100% of the respondents said they would recommend the school-- this indicates basically that people who thought the school was good bothered to return the survey while those who didn't (or those whose lives were so chaotic because they were still problematic that they didn't do so in time), didn't repond.
This is called response or selection bias-- and it's why the Consumer Reports study that she cites is not considered meaningful by people who study this area.(also, not peer reviewed).
100% support for the program screams response bias so loudly that most of the rest of the results are meaningless once you know that, given that all that such a biased survey can really tell is that people who liked the program thought it worked.
It is fascinating (and in line with all the other work in this area done with any methodological rigor), however, this didn't show up in more objective measures even though the respondents were true believers.
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I attacked your credibility, not the therapy component of ASR's program.
Thank you, with all the bullets firing at me it was hard to see, I had to read it twice. I dont mind getting blasted, call me a liar if you like. I am digging for the truth and the study (although not clinical) was a good find. Its hard to get information that supports programs on fomits no one wants to cough it up.
You post a link like davemarcus.com you get blasted. Post a link for "Help at any cost" and your a hero. So I expect to be crucified when I speak out about my families successes and some of the kids that did well.
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Also, 100% of the respondents said they would recommend the school-- this indicates basically that people who thought the school was good bothered to return the survey while those who didn't (or those whose lives were so chaotic because they were still problematic that they didn't do so in time), didn't repond.
I think it is a great start, though. If they persue it they may get those families, whos kids did not do as well, to respond, we would begin to see which programs are working and which are not. This would go a long way in helping future parents.
This is typical in any survey. It is hard to get the people who did not do well to get excited about a survey, alot of people would rather put it behind them. It will be a challenge.
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On 2006-01-11 16:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Also, 100% of the respondents said they would recommend the school-- this indicates basically that people who thought the school was good bothered to return the survey while those who didn't (or those whose lives were so chaotic because they were still problematic that they didn't do so in time), didn't repond.
I think it is a great start, though. If they persue it they may get those families, whos kids did not do as well, to respond, we would begin to see which programs are working and which are not. This would go a long way in helping future parents.
This is typical in any survey. It is hard to get the people who did not do well to get excited about a survey, alot of people would rather put it behind them. It will be a challenge.
"
OR the 100% indicates that, as Americans, 100% of parents polled would be willing to recommend the school to receive a $1,000 commission like WWASP gives for parent referrals.
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On 2006-01-11 16:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-01-11 16:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Also, 100% of the respondents said they would recommend the school-- this indicates basically that people who thought the school was good bothered to return the survey while those who didn't (or those whose lives were so chaotic because they were still problematic that they didn't do so in time), didn't repond.
I think it is a great start, though. If they persue it they may get those families, whos kids did not do as well, to respond, we would begin to see which programs are working and which are not. This would go a long way in helping future parents.
This is typical in any survey. It is hard to get the people who did not do well to get excited about a survey, alot of people would rather put it behind them. It will be a challenge.
"
OR the 100% indicates that, as Americans, 100% of parents polled would be willing to recommend the school to receive a $1,000 commission like WWASP gives for parent referrals."
Yea Maybe -- I could use an extra $1,000 (ha,ha)
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ASR is an accredited school through the Mohawk school district and is inthe middle of an accreditation survey by New England school and colleges. ASR has a brand new administration, which Rudy Benz has not been a part of for almost three years. Their clinical processes are stronger thanks to its new clinical director and if any one want to get real answers to their questions..please visit.
i will say ASR has had its struggles but it is solid school that helps students find themselves once again!!
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On 2006-01-13 10:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"ASR is an accredited school through the Mohawk school district and is inthe middle of an accreditation survey by New England school and colleges. ASR has a brand new administration, which Rudy Benz has not been a part of for almost three years. Their clinical processes are stronger thanks to its new clinical director and if any one want to get real answers to their questions..please visit.
i will say ASR has had its struggles but it is solid school that helps students find themselves once again!!"
Not true. School districts cannot accredit schools. This is a total prevarication.
NEASC does not accredit them either:
http://www.neasc.org/roster/maa.htm (http://www.neasc.org/roster/maa.htm)
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it's a slight of hand, or a statement of true ignorance.
private schools must report to the district once a year with demographics, etc. but they are not 'accredited' by them.
people throw terms like licensed and accredited around all the time without understanding what they mean. sometimes it's intentional to deceive, sometimes just pure ignorance.
call your local school district and ask if they accredit private 'schools' OR mind fucking mills.
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My wife and I recently enrolled our daughter in a "therapeutic boarding school" in SC. We withdrew her in less than 24 hours due to the vast amount of negative press via the internet and the fact that the school boasted regional accreditation on its website - but did not have accreditation at all.
Thinking of a school in SC? Don't do it.
Email me: thekingster@gmail.com for details.
The Kingster
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On 2006-01-13 16:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
"My wife and I recently enrolled our daughter in a "therapeutic boarding school" in SC. We withdrew her in less than 24 hours due to the vast amount of negative press via the internet and the fact that the school boasted regional accreditation on its website - but did not have accreditation at all.
Thinking of a school in SC? Don't do it.
Email me: thekingster@gmail.com for details.
The Kingster"
Which one? Any links to the information you found?
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Just what is easily found on the 'net.
The Kingster
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On 2006-01-13 18:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Just what is easily found on the 'net.
The Kingster"
Which program, Kingster?
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Considering I'm at one of these so called boarding schools I think my response should be the one that is considered...All these places are shit. The so called "school" u do is a joke and u dont learn anything. Its abusive and your kid is either going to be brain washed or hold it against your for the rest of your life. I've been here for 11 months now and my family has finally realized that they have made a costly mistake and are pulling me in 17 days.
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Nice beaver!
I dreamed for that scenario every day.....
What school?