Post by: Anonymous on December 19, 2005, 09:06:00 PM
Taken from another site: "BTW if you knew Tony Shipacaski ... he hung himself man... thats crazy so keep prayers for his mom shes lost her daughter son and husband now."
Tony Shipacaski, a former WWASP captive, now another WWASP casualty.
You are in our prayers.
Post by: Anonymous on December 19, 2005, 09:14:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 19, 2005, 09:33:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 19, 2005, 09:37:00 PM
LIST OF DEATHS IN FACILITIES
There is no federal or state agency that tracks the number of deaths or the cause of death in residential youth facilities. Every effort has been made to ensure accuracy.
Legislation passed in 2000 by Congress (Children's Health Act 2000) that requires treatment facilities who receive federal funds to report deaths caused by restraints and seclusion procedures within 24 hours after the child has been removed from restraint or seclusion or when it is reasonable to assume the death is a result of the restraint or seclusion.
Click here for articles.
Name
Age at Death/
Date if Available
Facility
Ryan Lewis
14 years old
2/13/2001
Alldredge Academy
Committed suicide by hanging
Jamar Griffiths
15 years old
10/18/94
Allen Residential Center
Breathing was obstructed while being restrained...Traumatic asphyxia and brain death from lack of oxygen due to heart and lung failure
Anthony ?Tony? Haynes
14 years old
7/1/2001
America's Buffalo Soldiers (Arizona)
Dehydration and near drowning
Travis Parker
13 years old
Appalachian Wilderness Camp
Restrained l l/2 hours. Denied request for asthma med
Lorenzo Johnson
17 years old
6/27/94
Arizona Boys Ranch
Drowned while trying to escape
Nicholaus Contreras
16 years old 3/2/98
Arizona Boys Ranch
Prolonged and serious medical neglect and openly abusive treatment per investigative summary
Dawn Renay Perry
16 years old 4/10/93
Behavior Training Research
Restraint
Anthony Green
15 years old 5/21/91
Brookhaven Youth Ranch
Restrained face down for 15 minutes Asphyxiation
Corey Baines
16 years old 3/26/03
Catherine Freer Wilderness Expeditions
Tree limb fell on tent while he was sleeping
Erica Harvey
15 years old
5/27/2002
Catherine Freer Wilderness Program
Hyperthermia with dehydration
Kristen Chase
16 years old
6/27/90
Challenger Foundation
Heatstroke
Tristan Sovern
16 years old
4/19/98
Charter Behavioral Health
Asphyxiation during restraint
Earl Smith
9 years old
1/11/95
Children's Village
Asphyxiation due to chest compression during restraint
Casey Collier
17 years old
12/93
Cleo Wallace Center
Restraint Asphyxia
Jeffery Demetrius
17 years old
8/26/97
Crockett State School
Strangulation while in restraint hold
Charles Collins, Jr.
15 years old
Crossroads for Youth
Jimmy Kanda
16 years old ? 9/20/97
Crow's Nest Family Care
Strangulation while in restraint hold 911 had to talk staff thru CPR
Latasha Bush
15 years old
2/14/2002
Daystar Residential Treatment Center
Complications of mechanical asphyxia Restraint
Edith Campos
15 years old
2/4/98
Desert Hills
Restraint Asphyxia
Robert Rollins
12 years old
4/21/97
Devereaux School
Asphyxiation while restrained after a dispute about his teddy bear
Michael Ibarra-Wiltsie
12 years old 2/5/2000
Eckert Youth Alternatives
Asphyxia -- Restraint sat on by 320 pound counselor
Andrew McClain
11 years old
3/22/98
Elmcrest Psychiatric Hospital
Traumatic asphyxia and chest compression Restraint
Candace Newmaker
10 years old 4/18/2000
Evergreen Attachment Center
Rebirthing
Roxanna Gray
17 years old
7/6/89
Family and Children's Center
Restrained Face Down on a Pillow Suffocation
Sakena Dorsey
19 years old
6/10/97
Foundation Behavioral
Suffocation during face down restraint with staff member laying across her back...history of asthma
Chris Campbell
13 years old 11/2/97
Iowa Juvenile Home
Restrained 4 times in her last 24 hours....Cause of Death undetermined
Jason Tallman
12 years old
5/12/93
KidsPeace
Restrained Face down on pillow
Suffocation
Mark Draheim
14 years old
12/98
KidsPeace
Asphyxiation while being forcibly restrained by 3 staff
Maria Mendoza
14 years old ? 10/12/2002
Krause Children's Center
Restraint
Randy Steele
9 years old
2/6/2000
Laurel Ridge
Restraint...in the scuffle he vomited then stopped breathing. After reviving he was transferred to a hospital where he died the next day. Had been restrained 25 times in 28 days prior to death.
Rochelle Clayborne
16 years old 8/18/97
Laurel Ridge
Pinned down by aids and given tranquilizer cardiac arrhythmia
Wauketta Wallace
12 years old
7/11/89
Marysville Academy
Postural asphyxia and stress due to restraint
Cedric Napoleaon
14 years old 3/7/2002
Mason Middle School
Restraint
Will Futrelle
15 years old
3/25/96
Mountain Park Baptist Academy
Murdered by other students
Kristal Mayon-Cenceros
16 years old 2/5/99
New Alternatives
Restrained face down by 4 staff
Shinaul McGraw
12 years old
6/5/97
New Directions 2nd Chance
Hyperthermia after restraint in a bed wrapped in a bed sheet with gauze over mouth
Jeffrey Bogrett
9 years old 12/1/95
New England Center for Autism
Sudden Death during Restraint
Jerry McLaurin
14 years old 11/2/99
New Horizons Ranch
Restraint
Sabrina E. Day
15 years old
2/10/2000
North Carolina Group Home
Restraint
Aaron Wright Bacon
16 years old 3/31/94
Northstar Expeditions Wilderness Program
Untreated Peritonitis *
Bobby Sue Thomas
17 years old 8/16/96
Northwood Childrens Home
Acute cardiac arrhythmia while restrained
William "Eddie" Lee
15 years old 9/18/2000
Obsidian Trails Wilderness Camp
Injury to Vertebral Artery at base of skull after being restrained by counselors
Eric Roberts
16 years old ? 2/22/96
Odyssey Harbor
Wrapped in plastic foam blanket for one hour stopped breathing due to pressure on chest according to autopsy
Charles "Chase" Moody
17 years old
10/14/02
On Track Wilderness Therapy
The Brown School (CEDU affiliated)
Asphyxiation by restraint
Gina Score
14 years old
1990
Plankinton Boot Camp
Collapsed (hyperthermia), left out in sun for 3 hours....internal temp at least 108
Chad Andrew Frenza
16 years old
Polk County Boot Camp
Melissa Neyman
19 years old
7/24/97
(Judith Young Adult Family Home (private group home in Washington) Climbed out a window and became entangled in straps of restraint. Had been dead 6 hours before workers noticed her hanging from window.
Bobby Jo Randolf
17 years old 9/26/96
Progressive Youth Center
Asphyxia due to pressure on neck by 2 staff
Jamie Young
13 years old
Ramsey Canyon
Heatstroke dehydration
Katherine Lank
16 years old 1/13/2002
Red Rock Ranch Academy
Slipped and fell down crevice while hiking, suffered massive head trauma, died 3 weeks later.
Paul Choy
16 years old
1992
Rites of Passage
Restraint
Chris Brown
16 years old 3/7/98
Robert Land Academy
Matt Toppi
17 years old
3/7/98
Robert Land Academy
John Avila
Age unknown
7/25/94
Rocky Mountain Academy
Diane Harris
17 years old
4/11/90
Sequin Community Living Center
Violently Restrained
Stephanie Duffield
16 years old
2/11/01
Shiloh Residential Treatment Center
Restraint
Ian August
14 years old
7/13/2002
Skyline Journey
Hyperthermia Hiking
Willie Wright
9 years old
2/4/2000
Southwest Mental Health
Stopped breathing while in restraint
Christy Scheck
13 years old
3/6/92
Southwood Psychiatric Hospital
Hung herself while on suicide watch
Joshua Ferarini
13 years old
1/8/89
St. Aemelian Hospital
Facedown restraint, suffocation
Michelle Lynn Sutton
15 years old
5/9/90
Summit Quest
Dehydration
Bryan Dale Alexander
18 years old
Texas Correctional Services
Pneumonia
Brandon Haden
18 years old
1998
Texas Neurological Rehab. Center
Roberto Reyes
15 years old 11/3/04
Thayer Learning Center
Probable spider bite and lack of medical care
Laura Hanson
17 years old 11/19/98
Unknown
Carlos Ruiz
13 years old 12/16/94
Vision Quest
Charles Lucas
16 years old ? 11/24/80
Vision Quest
Drowning
Danny Lewis
16 years old
6/89
Vision Quest
Dawnne Takeuchi
18 years old
6/25/95
Vision Quest
Eric David Schibley
17 years old 11/24/80
Vision Quest
Drowning
James Lamb
14 years old
11/24/80
Vision Quest
Drowning
Leon Anger
Age unknown 9/16/84
Vision Quest
Robert Zimmerman
17 years old
11/24/80
Vision Quest
Drowning
Tammy Edmiston
Age Unknown
9/11/82
Vision Quest
Bernard Reefer
Unsure
VisionQuest
John Vincent Garrison
18 years old
VisionQuest
Lyle Foodroy
Age unknown
VisionQuest
Drowning; boat capsized off Baha during storm
Mario Cano
16 years old
VisionQuest
Blood clot while doing calisthenics
Robert Doyle Erwin
15 years old
VisionQuest
Drowning
Mark Soares
16 years old
4/29/98
Wayside Union Academy
Cardiac arrest from physical restraint
Leroy Prinkley
14 years old 9/28/88
Western Center
Cerebral anoxia caused by heart and lung failure due to forceful restraint
Joshua Sharpe
17 years old 12/28/99
Wisconsin Treatment Center
Restraint
Christopher Landre
16 years old
6/12/97
WWASP - Paradise Cove
Suicide
Corey William Murphy
17 years old
3/21/2000
WWASP - Spring Creek Lodge
Suicide
Karlye Newman
16 years old 10/8/2004
WWASP - Spring Creek Lodge Academy
Suicide by hanging (read article)
Valerie Ann Heron
17 years old
8/10/2001
WWASP - Tranquility Bay
Jumped to death; question if suicide
Thomas Mapes
17 years old
7/8/94
Youth Center of Topeka
Asphyxiation; handcuffed, pushed face down on floor
* Peritonitis is infection (or inflammation) of the peritoneum, which is a two-layered membrane covering both the surfaces of the
organs that lie in the abdominal cavity and the inner surface of the abdominal cavity itself. It is frequently life-threatening and
acute peritonitis in a medical emergency. Outlook for untreated peritonitis is very poor.
Post by: Anonymous on December 19, 2005, 09:42:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 19, 2005, 09:43:00 PM
Yes, the deaths are horrible and very sad. It's the worse of the worse, I can't even imagine what a parent and other family members go through when they lose a child. But imagine how horrible it must be for your child to die at the hands of someone you paid to care for them. Parents, please beware. There are really some very bad places out there.
And there are far more casualties than these and the other deaths that are not listed here. The casualties are the living - the kids who have to endure the program, the people who abuse them and mistreat them, and then life afterwards. They have a reality like none other.
Imagine adults being imprisoned without ever even getting a fair trial, never getting to talk to an attorney, it wouldn't fly. So why is it OK for parents to basically do the same to their children? The thing that really galls me is that many of these kids are not the druggies people envision, they are not brats, they are not bad kids. Many are normal kids with parents who have serious problems. These kids are thrown into a world of hell because their parents don't want to deal with them for whatever their reasons. It's truly sickening.
I just hope the world learns about these places before we lose more kids and before more kids lives are messed up in the name of treatment.
Post by: Anonymous on December 19, 2005, 09:50:00 PM
"She told me she had tried to commit suicide while she was there and no doctor was called. She said she was put in isolation and laid on a concrete floor for hours while throwing up. The children are frequently placed in isolation according to my granddaughter, and are locked up for indefinite times with nothing but a concrete floor to lie on. She indicated she was threatened with "consequences" as they call them, if she testified against them in court."
Post by: Anonymous on December 20, 2005, 10:18:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-12-19 18:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"PARTIAL LIST:
LIST OF DEATHS IN FACILITIES
There is no federal or state agency that tracks the number of deaths or the cause of death in residential youth facilities. Every effort has been made to ensure accuracy.
Legislation passed in 2000 by Congress (Children's Health Act 2000) that requires treatment facilities who receive federal funds to report deaths caused by restraints and seclusion procedures within 24 hours after the child has been removed from restraint or seclusion or when it is reasonable to assume the death is a result of the restraint or seclusion.
Click here for articles.
Name
Age at Death/
Date if Available
Facility
Ryan Lewis
14 years old
2/13/2001
Alldredge Academy
Committed suicide by hanging
Jamar Griffiths
15 years old
10/18/94
Allen Residential Center
Breathing was obstructed while being restrained...Traumatic asphyxia and brain death from lack of oxygen due to heart and lung failure
Anthony ?Tony? Haynes
14 years old
7/1/2001
America's Buffalo Soldiers (Arizona)
Dehydration and near drowning
Travis Parker
13 years old
Appalachian Wilderness Camp
Restrained l l/2 hours. Denied request for asthma med
Lorenzo Johnson
17 years old
6/27/94
Arizona Boys Ranch
Drowned while trying to escape
Nicholaus Contreras
16 years old 3/2/98
Arizona Boys Ranch
Prolonged and serious medical neglect and openly abusive treatment per investigative summary
Dawn Renay Perry
16 years old 4/10/93
Behavior Training Research
Restraint
Anthony Green
15 years old 5/21/91
Brookhaven Youth Ranch
Restrained face down for 15 minutes Asphyxiation
Corey Baines
16 years old 3/26/03
Catherine Freer Wilderness Expeditions
Tree limb fell on tent while he was sleeping
Erica Harvey
15 years old
5/27/2002
Catherine Freer Wilderness Program
Hyperthermia with dehydration
Kristen Chase
16 years old
6/27/90
Challenger Foundation
Heatstroke
Tristan Sovern
16 years old
4/19/98
Charter Behavioral Health
Asphyxiation during restraint
Earl Smith
9 years old
1/11/95
Children's Village
Asphyxiation due to chest compression during restraint
Casey Collier
17 years old
12/93
Cleo Wallace Center
Restraint Asphyxia
Jeffery Demetrius
17 years old
8/26/97
Crockett State School
Strangulation while in restraint hold
Charles Collins, Jr.
15 years old
Crossroads for Youth
Jimmy Kanda
16 years old ? 9/20/97
Crow's Nest Family Care
Strangulation while in restraint hold 911 had to talk staff thru CPR
Latasha Bush
15 years old
2/14/2002
Daystar Residential Treatment Center
Complications of mechanical asphyxia Restraint
Edith Campos
15 years old
2/4/98
Desert Hills
Restraint Asphyxia
Robert Rollins
12 years old
4/21/97
Devereaux School
Asphyxiation while restrained after a dispute about his teddy bear
Michael Ibarra-Wiltsie
12 years old 2/5/2000
Eckert Youth Alternatives
Asphyxia -- Restraint sat on by 320 pound counselor
Andrew McClain
11 years old
3/22/98
Elmcrest Psychiatric Hospital
Traumatic asphyxia and chest compression Restraint
Candace Newmaker
10 years old 4/18/2000
Evergreen Attachment Center
Rebirthing
Roxanna Gray
17 years old
7/6/89
Family and Children's Center
Restrained Face Down on a Pillow Suffocation
Sakena Dorsey
19 years old
6/10/97
Foundation Behavioral
Suffocation during face down restraint with staff member laying across her back...history of asthma
Chris Campbell
13 years old 11/2/97
Iowa Juvenile Home
Restrained 4 times in her last 24 hours....Cause of Death undetermined
Jason Tallman
12 years old
5/12/93
KidsPeace
Restrained Face down on pillow
Suffocation
Mark Draheim
14 years old
12/98
KidsPeace
Asphyxiation while being forcibly restrained by 3 staff
Maria Mendoza
14 years old ? 10/12/2002
Krause Children's Center
Restraint
Randy Steele
9 years old
2/6/2000
Laurel Ridge
Restraint...in the scuffle he vomited then stopped breathing. After reviving he was transferred to a hospital where he died the next day. Had been restrained 25 times in 28 days prior to death.
Rochelle Clayborne
16 years old 8/18/97
Laurel Ridge
Pinned down by aids and given tranquilizer cardiac arrhythmia
Wauketta Wallace
12 years old
7/11/89
Marysville Academy
Postural asphyxia and stress due to restraint
Cedric Napoleaon
14 years old 3/7/2002
Mason Middle School
Restraint
Will Futrelle
15 years old
3/25/96
Mountain Park Baptist Academy
Murdered by other students
Kristal Mayon-Cenceros
16 years old 2/5/99
New Alternatives
Restrained face down by 4 staff
Shinaul McGraw
12 years old
6/5/97
New Directions 2nd Chance
Hyperthermia after restraint in a bed wrapped in a bed sheet with gauze over mouth
Jeffrey Bogrett
9 years old 12/1/95
New England Center for Autism
Sudden Death during Restraint
Jerry McLaurin
14 years old 11/2/99
New Horizons Ranch
Restraint
Sabrina E. Day
15 years old
2/10/2000
North Carolina Group Home
Restraint
Aaron Wright Bacon
16 years old 3/31/94
Northstar Expeditions Wilderness Program
Untreated Peritonitis *
Bobby Sue Thomas
17 years old 8/16/96
Northwood Childrens Home
Acute cardiac arrhythmia while restrained
William "Eddie" Lee
15 years old 9/18/2000
Obsidian Trails Wilderness Camp
Injury to Vertebral Artery at base of skull after being restrained by counselors
Eric Roberts
16 years old ? 2/22/96
Odyssey Harbor
Wrapped in plastic foam blanket for one hour stopped breathing due to pressure on chest according to autopsy
Charles "Chase" Moody
17 years old
10/14/02
On Track Wilderness Therapy
The Brown School (CEDU affiliated)
Asphyxiation by restraint
Gina Score
14 years old
1990
Plankinton Boot Camp
Collapsed (hyperthermia), left out in sun for 3 hours....internal temp at least 108
Chad Andrew Frenza
16 years old
Polk County Boot Camp
Melissa Neyman
19 years old
7/24/97
(Judith Young Adult Family Home (private group home in Washington) Climbed out a window and became entangled in straps of restraint. Had been dead 6 hours before workers noticed her hanging from window.
Bobby Jo Randolf
17 years old 9/26/96
Progressive Youth Center
Asphyxia due to pressure on neck by 2 staff
Jamie Young
13 years old
Ramsey Canyon
Heatstroke dehydration
Katherine Lank
16 years old 1/13/2002
Red Rock Ranch Academy
Slipped and fell down crevice while hiking, suffered massive head trauma, died 3 weeks later.
Paul Choy
16 years old
1992
Rites of Passage
Restraint
Chris Brown
16 years old 3/7/98
Robert Land Academy
Matt Toppi
17 years old
3/7/98
Robert Land Academy
John Avila
Age unknown
7/25/94
Rocky Mountain Academy
Diane Harris
17 years old
4/11/90
Sequin Community Living Center
Violently Restrained
Stephanie Duffield
16 years old
2/11/01
Shiloh Residential Treatment Center
Restraint
Ian August
14 years old
7/13/2002
Skyline Journey
Hyperthermia Hiking
Willie Wright
9 years old
2/4/2000
Southwest Mental Health
Stopped breathing while in restraint
Christy Scheck
13 years old
3/6/92
Southwood Psychiatric Hospital
Hung herself while on suicide watch
Joshua Ferarini
13 years old
1/8/89
St. Aemelian Hospital
Facedown restraint, suffocation
Michelle Lynn Sutton
15 years old
5/9/90
Summit Quest
Dehydration
Bryan Dale Alexander
18 years old
Texas Correctional Services
Pneumonia
Brandon Haden
18 years old
1998
Texas Neurological Rehab. Center
Roberto Reyes
15 years old 11/3/04
Thayer Learning Center
Probable spider bite and lack of medical care
Laura Hanson
17 years old 11/19/98
Unknown
Carlos Ruiz
13 years old 12/16/94
Vision Quest
Charles Lucas
16 years old ? 11/24/80
Vision Quest
Drowning
Danny Lewis
16 years old
6/89
Vision Quest
Dawnne Takeuchi
18 years old
6/25/95
Vision Quest
Eric David Schibley
17 years old 11/24/80
Vision Quest
Drowning
James Lamb
14 years old
11/24/80
Vision Quest
Drowning
Leon Anger
Age unknown 9/16/84
Vision Quest
Robert Zimmerman
17 years old
11/24/80
Vision Quest
Drowning
Tammy Edmiston
Age Unknown
9/11/82
Vision Quest
Bernard Reefer
Unsure
VisionQuest
John Vincent Garrison
18 years old
VisionQuest
Lyle Foodroy
Age unknown
VisionQuest
Drowning; boat capsized off Baha during storm
Mario Cano
16 years old
VisionQuest
Blood clot while doing calisthenics
Robert Doyle Erwin
15 years old
VisionQuest
Drowning
Mark Soares
16 years old
4/29/98
Wayside Union Academy
Cardiac arrest from physical restraint
Leroy Prinkley
14 years old 9/28/88
Western Center
Cerebral anoxia caused by heart and lung failure due to forceful restraint
Joshua Sharpe
17 years old 12/28/99
Wisconsin Treatment Center
Restraint
Christopher Landre
16 years old
6/12/97
WWASP - Paradise Cove
Suicide
Corey William Murphy
17 years old
3/21/2000
WWASP - Spring Creek Lodge
Suicide
Karlye Newman
16 years old 10/8/2004
WWASP - Spring Creek Lodge Academy
Suicide by hanging (read article)
Valerie Ann Heron
17 years old
8/10/2001
WWASP - Tranquility Bay
Jumped to death; question if suicide
Thomas Mapes
17 years old
7/8/94
Youth Center of Topeka
Asphyxiation; handcuffed, pushed face down on floor
* Peritonitis is infection (or inflammation) of the peritoneum, which is a two-layered membrane covering both the surfaces of the
organs that lie in the abdominal cavity and the inner surface of the abdominal cavity itself. It is frequently life-threatening and
acute peritonitis in a medical emergency. Outlook for untreated peritonitis is very poor.
"
There may be a place for this sort of thing, but the first issue is accuracy, and this is not accurate.
Some of these kids did NOT die in programs. Several had not even been in a program for months or even years. Some of the places listed aren't even programs. The large number who died from drowning were all in a car wreck.
This kind of intentional inaccuracy is one of the things that keeps folks from believing TRUE reports, people!
Post by: Anonymous on December 20, 2005, 11:21:00 AM
List those you consider to be inaccurate.
Post by: Anonymous on December 20, 2005, 11:50:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on December 20, 2005, 11:57:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-12-20 08:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Corey Murphy did not die AT Spring Creek. Please check your facts before printing false statements. :roll: "
Your pedantry does not alter the fact that he died because of WWASP. He killed himself to avoid being sent back.
Post by: Anonymous on December 20, 2005, 11:59:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on December 20, 2005, 12:25:00 PM
Don't ya just love these people? :roll:
Post by: TheWho on December 20, 2005, 12:50:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-20 09:25:00, Anonymous wrote:What the guy is saying is you should be clear about your list. Its very misleading to add kids to the list that died after leaving the program. What is your message? Can we add kids that died in a car crash because their mind wandered and they were thinking about the program they were in and went off the road 15 years after they left the program? Can we remove kids from the list if we feel they would have died sooner if they hadnt gone into a program, extending their lives for 2 more years?
"This type of thread is where the program trolls REALLY show their true colors. They belittle the murders and deaths of innocent children and pretend none of them are real.
Don't ya just love these people? :roll: "
If you put a list out and expect people to believe it you should be very clear. Put an astisk next to names of kids that died after leaving the program, maybe a double astisk if its been over 20 years for example.
Post by: Anonymous on December 20, 2005, 02:09:00 PM
If anything - there are many MORE dead that we don't know about. Take your spin elsewhere, and go read the list on the first page and think long and hard about why you support these murderous programs.
Post by: Anonymous on December 20, 2005, 05:19:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-20 11:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Oh stop trying to change the subject. Who listed here died of a car cash??? If a kid kills themselves while awaiting being sent back to the program, YES, I for one think that should be included. It would be a lot easier if these places kept a list and records for all to see. Or if there were some kind of regulatory agency who kept records, or anything. But there is nothing, so the best anyone can do is paste together information from newspaper articles, and first hand accounts. If you as so concerned with accuracy, go work to change the structure of these programs as many of us are doing. Obviously you have no interest in that though! :wstupid:
Yes, piddly detail, the fact that so many died in circumstances that were utterly unrelated to programs. Off with their heads! Murder, I say!!
Post by: Anonymous on December 20, 2005, 05:40:00 PM
Post by: TheWho on December 20, 2005, 07:12:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-20 14:40:00, Anonymous wrote:I dont think anyone is belittling the deaths and no one is changing the subject. Its about credibility. I believe the list title was "Lists of Deaths in Facilities". My original point was if a person died outside the facility he cant be on the list. One needs to be very clear if you want your list to be taken seriously. Call it "list of deaths of people who attended a facility". If you dont do this it casts a shadow on every name on the list. You should be fair to everyone else on the list!!
"Joke around all you want. Belittle these deaths all you want, it changes nothing. You show your true self. :eek: "
Post by: Anonymous on December 20, 2005, 07:29:00 PM
Program trolls, people who get out kill themselves because they are traumatized. Corey Murphy didn't want to get sent back and would rather die than live in a WWASP program again. Kids are killing themselves and WWASP employees can account for their blood when they meet their maker. WWASP employees live on blood money, it's no cleaner than drug money. These suicides are on your head.
Post by: TheWho on December 20, 2005, 07:34:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-20 16:29:00, Anonymous wrote:I havent seen anyone disagree with you, add an astisk indicating exactly what you just said, no big deal.
"None of those kids died in a car crash or you'd say who you think it was. Ryan Grasso died at home and the cause is being determined, though it seems the papers are insinuating it was a suicide. Corey Murphy was a suicide.
Program trolls, people who get out kill themselves because they are traumatized. Corey Murphy didn't want to get sent back and would rather die than live in a WWASP program again. Kids are killing themselves and WWASP employees can account for their blood when they meet their maker. WWASP employees live on blood money, it's no cleaner than drug money. These suicides are on your head.
"
Post by: SurpassingTheFlow on December 20, 2005, 07:41:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 20, 2005, 07:41:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-20 16:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"None of those kids died in a car crash or you'd say who you think it was. Ryan Grasso died at home and the cause is being determined, though it seems the papers are insinuating it was a suicide. Corey Murphy was a suicide.
Program trolls, people who get out kill themselves because they are traumatized. Corey Murphy didn't want to get sent back and would rather die than live in a WWASP program again. Kids are killing themselves and WWASP employees can account for their blood when they meet their maker. WWASP employees live on blood money, it's no cleaner than drug money. These suicides are on your head.
"
::nod:: ::nod:: ::nod:: ::nod:: ::nod:: ::nod::
Post by: SurpassingTheFlow on December 20, 2005, 07:43:00 PM
Post by: TheWho on December 20, 2005, 07:48:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-20 16:41:00, SurpassingTheFlow wrote:She was under the care of the facility at the time.
"You guys forgot the chick at SCL who hung herself when i was there 8 months ago. I saw the whole thing... she "apparently" died on the way to hospital even though her heart stopped a few minutes before the abulance arrived... ::soapbox:: ::unhappy:: "
Post by: Anonymous on December 20, 2005, 07:51:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 20, 2005, 07:53:00 PM
Post by: YuckFou on December 20, 2005, 08:17:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 20, 2005, 08:48:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 20, 2005, 09:05:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-19 18:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"PARTIAL LIST:
LIST OF DEATHS IN FACILITIES
There is no federal or state agency that tracks the number of deaths or the cause of death in residential youth facilities. Every effort has been made to ensure accuracy.
Legislation passed in 2000 by Congress (Children's Health Act 2000) that requires treatment facilities who receive federal funds to report deaths caused by restraints and seclusion procedures within 24 hours after the child has been removed from restraint or seclusion or when it is reasonable to assume the death is a result of the restraint or seclusion.
Click here for articles.
Name
Age at Death/
Date if Available
Facility
Ryan Lewis
14 years old
2/13/2001
Alldredge Academy
Committed suicide by hanging
Jamar Griffiths
15 years old
10/18/94
Allen Residential Center
Breathing was obstructed while being restrained...Traumatic asphyxia and brain death from lack of oxygen due to heart and lung failure
Anthony ?Tony? Haynes
14 years old
7/1/2001
America's Buffalo Soldiers (Arizona)
Dehydration and near drowning
Travis Parker
13 years old
Appalachian Wilderness Camp
Restrained l l/2 hours. Denied request for asthma med
Lorenzo Johnson
17 years old
6/27/94
Arizona Boys Ranch
Drowned while trying to escape
Nicholaus Contreras
16 years old 3/2/98
Arizona Boys Ranch
Prolonged and serious medical neglect and openly abusive treatment per investigative summary
Dawn Renay Perry
16 years old 4/10/93
Behavior Training Research
Restraint
Anthony Green
15 years old 5/21/91
Brookhaven Youth Ranch
Restrained face down for 15 minutes Asphyxiation
Corey Baines
16 years old 3/26/03
Catherine Freer Wilderness Expeditions
Tree limb fell on tent while he was sleeping
Erica Harvey
15 years old
5/27/2002
Catherine Freer Wilderness Program
Hyperthermia with dehydration
Kristen Chase
16 years old
6/27/90
Challenger Foundation
Heatstroke
Tristan Sovern
16 years old
4/19/98
Charter Behavioral Health
Asphyxiation during restraint
Earl Smith
9 years old
1/11/95
Children's Village
Asphyxiation due to chest compression during restraint
Casey Collier
17 years old
12/93
Cleo Wallace Center
Restraint Asphyxia
Jeffery Demetrius
17 years old
8/26/97
Crockett State School
Strangulation while in restraint hold
Charles Collins, Jr.
15 years old
Crossroads for Youth
Jimmy Kanda
16 years old ? 9/20/97
Crow's Nest Family Care
Strangulation while in restraint hold 911 had to talk staff thru CPR
Latasha Bush
15 years old
2/14/2002
Daystar Residential Treatment Center
Complications of mechanical asphyxia Restraint
Edith Campos
15 years old
2/4/98
Desert Hills
Restraint Asphyxia
Robert Rollins
12 years old
4/21/97
Devereaux School
Asphyxiation while restrained after a dispute about his teddy bear
Michael Ibarra-Wiltsie
12 years old 2/5/2000
Eckert Youth Alternatives
Asphyxia -- Restraint sat on by 320 pound counselor
Andrew McClain
11 years old
3/22/98
Elmcrest Psychiatric Hospital
Traumatic asphyxia and chest compression Restraint
Candace Newmaker
10 years old 4/18/2000
Evergreen Attachment Center
Rebirthing
Roxanna Gray
17 years old
7/6/89
Family and Children's Center
Restrained Face Down on a Pillow Suffocation
Sakena Dorsey
19 years old
6/10/97
Foundation Behavioral
Suffocation during face down restraint with staff member laying across her back...history of asthma
Chris Campbell
13 years old 11/2/97
Iowa Juvenile Home
Restrained 4 times in her last 24 hours....Cause of Death undetermined
Jason Tallman
12 years old
5/12/93
KidsPeace
Restrained Face down on pillow
Suffocation
Mark Draheim
14 years old
12/98
KidsPeace
Asphyxiation while being forcibly restrained by 3 staff
Maria Mendoza
14 years old ? 10/12/2002
Krause Children's Center
Restraint
Randy Steele
9 years old
2/6/2000
Laurel Ridge
Restraint...in the scuffle he vomited then stopped breathing. After reviving he was transferred to a hospital where he died the next day. Had been restrained 25 times in 28 days prior to death.
Rochelle Clayborne
16 years old 8/18/97
Laurel Ridge
Pinned down by aids and given tranquilizer cardiac arrhythmia
Wauketta Wallace
12 years old
7/11/89
Marysville Academy
Postural asphyxia and stress due to restraint
Cedric Napoleaon
14 years old 3/7/2002
Mason Middle School
Restraint
Will Futrelle
15 years old
3/25/96
Mountain Park Baptist Academy
Murdered by other students
Kristal Mayon-Cenceros
16 years old 2/5/99
New Alternatives
Restrained face down by 4 staff
Shinaul McGraw
12 years old
6/5/97
New Directions 2nd Chance
Hyperthermia after restraint in a bed wrapped in a bed sheet with gauze over mouth
Jeffrey Bogrett
9 years old 12/1/95
New England Center for Autism
Sudden Death during Restraint
Jerry McLaurin
14 years old 11/2/99
New Horizons Ranch
Restraint
Sabrina E. Day
15 years old
2/10/2000
North Carolina Group Home
Restraint
Aaron Wright Bacon
16 years old 3/31/94
Northstar Expeditions Wilderness Program
Untreated Peritonitis *
Bobby Sue Thomas
17 years old 8/16/96
Northwood Childrens Home
Acute cardiac arrhythmia while restrained
William "Eddie" Lee
15 years old 9/18/2000
Obsidian Trails Wilderness Camp
Injury to Vertebral Artery at base of skull after being restrained by counselors
Eric Roberts
16 years old ? 2/22/96
Odyssey Harbor
Wrapped in plastic foam blanket for one hour stopped breathing due to pressure on chest according to autopsy
Charles "Chase" Moody
17 years old
10/14/02
On Track Wilderness Therapy
The Brown School (CEDU affiliated)
Asphyxiation by restraint
Gina Score
14 years old
1990
Plankinton Boot Camp
Collapsed (hyperthermia), left out in sun for 3 hours....internal temp at least 108
Chad Andrew Frenza
16 years old
Polk County Boot Camp
Melissa Neyman
19 years old
7/24/97
(Judith Young Adult Family Home (private group home in Washington) Climbed out a window and became entangled in straps of restraint. Had been dead 6 hours before workers noticed her hanging from window.
Bobby Jo Randolf
17 years old 9/26/96
Progressive Youth Center
Asphyxia due to pressure on neck by 2 staff
Jamie Young
13 years old
Ramsey Canyon
Heatstroke dehydration
Katherine Lank
16 years old 1/13/2002
Red Rock Ranch Academy
Slipped and fell down crevice while hiking, suffered massive head trauma, died 3 weeks later.
Paul Choy
16 years old
1992
Rites of Passage
Restraint
Chris Brown
16 years old 3/7/98
Robert Land Academy
Matt Toppi
17 years old
3/7/98
Robert Land Academy
John Avila
Age unknown
7/25/94
Rocky Mountain Academy
Diane Harris
17 years old
4/11/90
Sequin Community Living Center
Violently Restrained
Stephanie Duffield
16 years old
2/11/01
Shiloh Residential Treatment Center
Restraint
Ian August
14 years old
7/13/2002
Skyline Journey
Hyperthermia Hiking
Willie Wright
9 years old
2/4/2000
Southwest Mental Health
Stopped breathing while in restraint
Christy Scheck
13 years old
3/6/92
Southwood Psychiatric Hospital
Hung herself while on suicide watch
Joshua Ferarini
13 years old
1/8/89
St. Aemelian Hospital
Facedown restraint, suffocation
Michelle Lynn Sutton
15 years old
5/9/90
Summit Quest
Dehydration
Bryan Dale Alexander
18 years old
Texas Correctional Services
Pneumonia
Brandon Haden
18 years old
1998
Texas Neurological Rehab. Center
Roberto Reyes
15 years old 11/3/04
Thayer Learning Center
Probable spider bite and lack of medical care
Laura Hanson
17 years old 11/19/98
Unknown
Carlos Ruiz
13 years old 12/16/94
Vision Quest
Charles Lucas
16 years old ? 11/24/80
Vision Quest
Drowning
Danny Lewis
16 years old
6/89
Vision Quest
Dawnne Takeuchi
18 years old
6/25/95
Vision Quest
Eric David Schibley
17 years old 11/24/80
Vision Quest
Drowning
James Lamb
14 years old
11/24/80
Vision Quest
Drowning
Leon Anger
Age unknown 9/16/84
Vision Quest
Robert Zimmerman
17 years old
11/24/80
Vision Quest
Drowning
Tammy Edmiston
Age Unknown
9/11/82
Vision Quest
Bernard Reefer
Unsure
VisionQuest
John Vincent Garrison
18 years old
VisionQuest
Lyle Foodroy
Age unknown
VisionQuest
Drowning; boat capsized off Baha during storm
Mario Cano
16 years old
VisionQuest
Blood clot while doing calisthenics
Robert Doyle Erwin
15 years old
VisionQuest
Drowning
Mark Soares
16 years old
4/29/98
Wayside Union Academy
Cardiac arrest from physical restraint
Leroy Prinkley
14 years old 9/28/88
Western Center
Cerebral anoxia caused by heart and lung failure due to forceful restraint
Joshua Sharpe
17 years old 12/28/99
Wisconsin Treatment Center
Restraint
Christopher Landre
16 years old
6/12/97
WWASP - Paradise Cove
Suicide
Corey William Murphy
17 years old
3/21/2000
WWASP - Spring Creek Lodge
Suicide
Karlye Newman
16 years old 10/8/2004
WWASP - Spring Creek Lodge Academy
Suicide by hanging (read article)
Valerie Ann Heron
17 years old
8/10/2001
WWASP - Tranquility Bay
Jumped to death; question if suicide
Thomas Mapes
17 years old
7/8/94
Youth Center of Topeka
Asphyxiation; handcuffed, pushed face down on floor
* Peritonitis is infection (or inflammation) of the peritoneum, which is a two-layered membrane covering both the surfaces of the
organs that lie in the abdominal cavity and the inner surface of the abdominal cavity itself. It is frequently life-threatening and
acute peritonitis in a medical emergency. Outlook for untreated peritonitis is very poor.
"
seems like there are many deaths during restraints. poor kids dying face down on the ground. ::noway:: ::noway:: ::noway:: ::noway::
Post by: Anonymous on December 20, 2005, 09:19:00 PM
1. Valerie Heron, Tranquility Bay suicide while at program
2. Ryan Grasso, death at home after SCL 12/12/05
3. Corey Murphy, suicide after Paradise Cove
4. Chris Sutton, on trial for hiring hitman to murder parents (mom killed, dad left blind from gunshot injuries)- count mom as a casualty
5. Girl at SCL who hung herself while at SCL- name?
6. Christopher Landre, suicide after Paradise Cove
7. Randi Koetz, suicide after Casa by the Sea 4/10/05
8. Bryan Richardson, murdered by brother after Casa by the Sea 2/27/05
9. Robert Carter Evans, suicide 4/10/05
10. Michael "Romeo" Perry, Murder (on death row in Texas). Casa By The Sea
Keep this list going, people.
Post by: TheWho on December 20, 2005, 10:37:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-20 17:17:00, YuckFou wrote:I agree that one death is too many, but are the schools putting our children at more risk than our public school system? or less?
"Even one murder is too many. These places need to be shut down. This is unbelievable."
For example during the period July 1, 1999 to June 30,2000 there were 2,124 Homicides and 1,922 Suicides of youth ages 5-19 in the United States.
How does this stack up to program deaths?
Another Statistic:"In 1999?2000, an estimated 1.5 million violent incidents occurred in public elementary and secondary schools. Seventy-one percent of public schools experienced one or more violent incidents and 36 percent of schools reported one or more such incidents to the police.
Are programs responsible for a higher percentage and therefore pose a higher risk? Are our kids safer in Public Schools?
Post by: Anonymous on December 20, 2005, 11:00:00 PM
What would happen if a teacher sat on a student until they were dead? You think they would investigate or something... ? What do they do when this happens at programs? :question: :question: :question:
Seriously... get real, these are murders and anyone can come up with any statistics to prove any point... you impress no one with your off-topic diversions.
Post by: Anonymous on December 20, 2005, 11:13:00 PM
I also thought that maybe we could compile lists of who's been arrested, who's been pregnant before marriage and at what age (not that I pass judgment at all, but parents do), and any other statistics that would make parebts reconsider WWASPs effectiveness.
Post by: TheWho on December 20, 2005, 11:34:00 PM
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2,000 teens killed themselves isn't saying much.......Keep compiling the names, guys
I think someone said it earlier that one death is too many and I agree.
Quote
How many of those kids were murdered by their teachers? Or school employees?
What would happen if a teacher sat on a student until they were dead? You think they would investigate or something... ? What do they do when this happens at programs
Now thats what I am talking about!!! We show that kids are more at risk than your average public school parents would think twice about sending their kids there. How many kids are killed by their teachers in public schools, private schools charter schools etc. and compare it to programs....this is important stuff and should be looked at.
How many gym teachers force kids to run around the track and go home and die of heat exhaustion, how many program counselors are improperly trained to restrain someone etc.
Put this out there for the parents to see.... instead of just yelling, and making lists and calling people names and stuff like that, lets put some teeth into it!!!
Post by: Anonymous on December 20, 2005, 11:50:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 20, 2005, 11:53:00 PM
Quote
Are programs responsible for a higher percentage and therefore pose a higher risk? Are our kids safer in Public Schools?
OF COURSE. Schools allow you to leave. Schools have phones. Schools teach you things. Schools don't brainwash you. Schools have staff with qualifications, education and training. Schools have trained administration staff. Schools job is not to make as much money off you as possible. School is regulated. School is actually beneficial.
Are our kids safer in Public schools?
The fact you ask this question shows you are completely unfamiliar with WWASP programs. OF COURSE THEY ARE.
Post by: TheWho on December 21, 2005, 12:24:00 AM
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On 2005-12-20 20:50:00, Anonymous wrote:Misdirecting where? Why doesnt anyone want to go down that path? What is so wrong with it? Why not compare? You can write lists if you like and get more angry as they get longer, but to what end? We have zero argument against any school unless we prove they are putting our children at greater risk then an established standard. You are at the same place you were last year and the list gets longer. Is this something you enjoy? Why not do something constuctive?
"Spin... spin... spin. You program apologists LOVE to point people down a path leading to nowhere (these statistics don't exist, and nobody has anyway of compiling them other than the program themselves). This thread is about PROGRAMS not gym teachers. Go find how many kids have been killed after being restrained by their teachers if you want to know the difference between programs and school. Misdirection won't work WWASP apologist, sorry. :wave: Now... back to the list of lives ended/ruined by programs."
Unless we all sit back in our chairs and wait for the next person to die, shake our heads and say death to the programs you acuse them of spin or programmies, trolls etc.
But maybe I will try it for awhile. lets look at that list alphabetically and then after that by region, kick back until we can add another one.
If someone trys to make us get out of our chairs and make a difference, I will accuse them of trolling or program spin and we will reprint the list and say "Shut all the schools down" !!!
Then I will be really pissed because no one will listen to me, the schools are still open.
Then a year will go by and someone will suggest to me why dont you actually show these parents that these programs are hurting their kids?
And I will shout "Spin...Spin you are trying to misdirect my anger, show me the list again so I can get refocused, friggin trolls are all alike, always trying to lead me down a path, I like it here damit
Post by: SurpassingTheFlow on December 21, 2005, 04:19:00 AM
Peace... ::dove::
Post by: TheWho on December 21, 2005, 09:15:00 AM
Quote
Yes... there are more acts of violence in public schools, BUT, there are also MANY times more kids in public schools
Exactly, thats why I am suggesting comparing them via percentage. This way you can elliminate the difference in populations and compare apple to apples
Post by: Anonymous on December 21, 2005, 10:53:00 AM
Post by: TheWho on December 21, 2005, 11:09:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-12-21 07:53:00, Anonymous wrote:Yes they do, if you compare number of deaths as a percentage of the whole than you can compare any populations to each other, cults, theraputic schools, high schools, grammer schools collages, missionaries, baseball teams etc.
"WWASP and public school don't compare. It's not comparing apples and apples, it's more like comparing apples and a cult. Because WWASP is a cult, an abusive cult. No comparison, sorry. Take your misdirection elsewhere. :wave: "
That the power of ratios.
How many kids per 1,000 die in boarding schools vs say inter city schools? How many per 1,000 in cults? How many fireman die per 1,000 each year? Of course they are all different populations but on that one level you can compare one constant, then you can justify the results by saying "Well sure more fireman get hurt because they are running into burning buildings etc." But the data speaks for itself and it is comparable data.
I think it could help explain and bring a stronger message to prospective parents, you shouldnt discard it so quickly.
Post by: Anonymous on December 21, 2005, 11:32:00 AM
Again, how many public schools MURDER their students?
How many fire departments MURDERED their cadets?
How many kids were at school against their will, taken in by kidnappers? How many firefighters?
First - you will never be able to compile these numbers, so you are pursuing a blind alley (which I think you are doing on purpose).
Second - these facilities do harm that is immesuarable even if the child is not killed. Emotional stress, emotional abuse, physcological torture are all activities included in the price of WWASP. Suicide is a tragic byproduct of this corrupt and fear-mongering system called WWASP.
Quote
But the data speaks for itself and it is comparable data.
There is no comparable data to programs becuase they are in a category all their own. Every comparison you list here is an accountable system. Schooling, Firefighting... they keep records and have requirements, training, etc. WWASP has none. It is an unregulated business who murders children behind closed doors, accountable to no one.
If you want to spend your time compiling data that you will never be allowed to get, by all means, go for it. Personally, as with many other ex-studnets, we know first hand the horror of these faciltiies and don't feel the need to compile numbers to convince parents otherwise. If parents ignore the true stories of horror, and ignorantly ask for statistics... god help their child.
Post by: TheWho on December 21, 2005, 12:40:00 PM
Now if we compare this to other schools WWASP or other RTCs and see that it is substantially higher say one child in 100 or 1%, then that would be compelling evidence which would make parents or authorities sit up and take notice. Murdered or not, these kids are dieing !!!!
This is the first step, if the cults are out of balance with the rest of the system, people will want to know why, and stop sending there kids there until an investigation is done nad force regulations and records to be kept etc.
But one needs to start somewhere, believe me these number are comparable, they are used in court cases and libel suits everyday, and in fact you cant make a case without them.
Quote
Personally, as with many other ex-studnets, we know first hand the horror of these faciltiies and don't feel the need to compile numbers to convince parents otherwise
I find it hard to believe that you witnessed this horror first hand but find no need to convince parents not to send their kids to one of these places. If someone abused me or killed one of my friends I would do everything I could to expose these people!!
Quote
so you are pursuing a blind alley (which I think you are doing on purpose).
I am not going down a blind alley, if there is data to be had, it will help the cause. What I dont understand is why you and others are so willing to turn a blind eye or get angry at the thought of collecting numbers. Somehow I suspect you may be part of one of these programs and are just trying to step on the idea of exposing the truth
Post by: Anonymous on December 21, 2005, 01:12:00 PM
It's offensive to me and others I'm sure that you even compare these programs to public schools. I've been to public school for 10 years, and spent close to two years in various programs. There is NO comparison. Anyone who was at a program knows this. (violence in school is amongst the teens themsleves, not an adult abusing their position to emotionally or physically harm a child)
Personally, knowing how a lot of programs are structured, I know it will be close to impossible to gather the data you are after. I would love it if you could show the world how abusive, murderous and devestating these programs are. BUT - I don't think you can obtain this data, hence my reasoning why you are pointing people down blind alleys.
I am anti-WWASP, anti-PROVO because I was at both these programs and know first hand how terrible they really are. That is my position. If I am misunderstanding your position, I apologize. Perhaps we are on the same side of this argument.
So no more discouragement from me. If you think you can produce this data, I am all for it. :tup: :tup:
Post by: Anonymous on December 21, 2005, 04:43:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-20 18:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It's way more than two, that's the point of listing the names for current and prospective parents:
1. Valerie Heron, Tranquility Bay suicide while at program
2. Ryan Grasso, death at home after SCL 12/12/05
3. Corey Murphy, suicide after Paradise Cove
4. Chris Sutton, on trial for hiring hitman to murder parents (mom killed, dad left blind from gunshot injuries)- count mom as a casualty
5. Girl at SCL who hung herself while at SCL- name?
6. Christopher Landre, suicide after Paradise Cove
7. Randi Koetz, suicide after Casa by the Sea 4/10/05
8. Bryan Richardson, murdered by brother after Casa by the Sea 2/27/05
9. Robert Carter Evans, suicide 4/10/05
10. Michael "Romeo" Perry, Murder (on death row in Texas). Casa By The Sea
Keep this list going, people.
"
What's with all the AFTER the program stuff? I know Landre didn't complete the program and still had many issues he never had the opportunity to heal. Isn't that why his father is now helping keep the kids in until they have had the time to heal with his nonprofit Landre Foundation? Could it be that is why the others died = they didn't use what they learned or didn't complete for one reason or another? I get you all are mostly control freaks that love to play on the fears of parents or relatives who wish they could have helped their kid at home.
How many lives have YOU destroyed by your words?
Anyone know how many parents didn't get help because of what they read on forums like this and their child ran away/died/is in jail/drug addicted - these are all forms of death -
Post by: Anonymous on December 21, 2005, 04:50:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-21 13:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
Could it be that is why the others died = they didn't use what they learned or didn't complete for one reason or another? I get you all are mostly control freaks that love to play on the fears of parents or relatives who wish they could have helped their kid at home.
How many lives have YOU destroyed by your words?
Anyone know how many parents didn't get help because of what they read on forums like this and their child ran away/died/is in jail/drug addicted - these are all forms of death - "
Please, step away from the Kool Aid. Damn. Just how far up that program's ass IS your head?? You've got the lingo down pat!! Complete with the requisite deadinsaneinjail mantra.
I get you all are mostly control freaks that love to play on the fears of parents or relatives who think that forcing this shit down a kid's throat is actually going to help. Wake up from dreamland little one! The only people playing on parents' fears are the people that continue to insist that these places are anything but a money making sham and a disgrace.
Post by: Anonymous on December 22, 2005, 12:50:00 AM
Post by: SurpassingTheFlow on December 22, 2005, 03:20:00 AM
In public schools there are rules, but only neccessary ones for the general function of the school and the NORMAL process of education: learning about the world not "learning about yourself." Yet, "programs" also incorperate learning about the world and school at the same time but are seperate entities within the "program." enough babble... SO, in comparison, public schools use classroom type learning with homework, "programs" use correspondence style learning where it is at your own pace. Public schools do not focus on the "learning about yourself"(aka brainwashing and indoctrination) bullshit "programs" do.
SO, public schools are a lot more common than "programs" and are a unchangable fact of modern society. The comparison of how many people die in "programs" vs. public schools: in "programs" many more kids are susceptible to depression and suicide based on the horrific living conditions imposed on them, they are more likly to be at risk of danger in the process of running away, when restrained (which is often unneccesary or with excessive force) they are subject to injury or death. Other angry or depressed students may because of the living conditions, become homicidal and suicidal. The staff of these "programs" are often under-qualified lkeaving the "students" more at risk to abuse and just about any other danger. In public schools the biggest risk is the danger of other students hurting eachother and school-shootings (which are rare). Public schools are run by qualified professionals removing the risk of neglect, and often there are police patrolling. There are difficulties comparing "programs" and public schools because the former doesnt have a "program" aspect which adds a lot more risk of injury and death. I also say that the notion of how many kids are saved by "programs" outweighs deaths is complete bullshit: there are many more absolutely effective solutions to kid's problems other than these hell-on-earth money machines, "programs" will put the money first, and ultimately one death is too many...
peace. ::rainbow::
Post by: p on December 23, 2005, 12:00:00 PM
or getting info to a new girl there?
pmillerca@cox.net
please write
Post by: Anonymous on December 27, 2005, 11:52:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-12-21 13:43:00, Anonymous wrote:Well especially Chris Landre did you know he re-attended seminars after the program even but upon being threatened with being sent back into that hellhole he took his own life.
What's with all the AFTER the program stuff? I know Landre didn't complete the program and still had many issues he never had the opportunity to heal. Isn't that why his father is now helping keep the kids in until they have had the time to heal with his nonprofit Landre Foundation? Could it be that is why the others died = they didn't use what they learned or didn't complete for one reason or another? I get you all are mostly control freaks that love to play on the fears of parents or relatives who wish they could have helped their kid at home.
How many lives have YOU destroyed by your words?
Anyone know how many parents didn't get help because of what they read on forums like this and their child ran away/died/is in jail/drug addicted - these are all forms of death - "
Post by: Anonymous on December 27, 2005, 11:55:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-12-21 21:50:00, Anonymous wrote:corey murphy made it to level 6 he was in the program over 3 years!!! In the three years that he was there it is sufficient to say (hindsight being 20/20) that he never recieved any credible mental help which apparently he was in dire need of.
"Let's also find out what percentage of those who are now deceased made it to level 6, or if the staff's assumption that "graduating" the program (which we've determined takes about 2 years and a "therapist's" thumbs-up) indeed guarantees one future success in life.
"
Post by: Anonymous on December 27, 2005, 12:02:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 03, 2006, 01:27:00 PM
Post by: p on January 03, 2006, 07:08:00 PM
in t.v. newspaper, etc. just went and saw unspeakable crimes against teens held against
their will...i do not know what to do to fix it.
also check freealexcampain@aol.com and help her too.
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on January 04, 2006, 12:28:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 07:46:00 PM
God bless him and let's all continue to fight for real treatment for people who need it. May he rest in peace.
Post by: 69 on January 05, 2006, 12:10:00 PM
What if this person had received REAL treatment, instead of being shipped off to a private jail?
Would they still be dead?
Did program PTSD contribute to his death?
These questions should resonate with anyone who has been through, or knows someone who has been through these progams.
R.I.P. man, sorry you had to go through what you did that led up to this tragic ending. :sad: :sad:
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 12:41:00 PM
the (one) link to the article no longer works:
http://www.arizonarepublic.com/special3 ... amp15.html (http://www.arizonarepublic.com/special36/articles/0715bootcamp15.html)
and unfortunately, i didn't post it here. if someone knows how to retrive it, please post it in the VQ forum for future reference.
Post by: 69 on January 05, 2006, 01:42:00 PM
This I believe: That the free, exploring mind of the individual human is the most valuable thing in the world. And this I would fight for: The freedom of the mind to take any direction it wishes, undirected. And this I must fight against: Any idea, religion, or government which limits or destroys the individual.
--John Steinbeck, American novelist
Post by: Perrigaud on January 07, 2006, 05:43:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on January 07, 2006, 04:54:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on January 07, 2006, 05:41:00 PM
Quote
To: Spring Creek Lodge This letter of appreciation is for everyone at Spring Creek Lodge for caring enough about this work to help our family. We feel very blessed our son Matt Lockerman is flourishing. We are in Focus and are in a renewed place of ?There are no accidents.? We want you to know we are doing our part and are working the program. We want you to know we are doing our part and are working the program. We have gotten so many wonderful gifts of friendship, feedback, laughter, tears ? We will always be grateful for this journey. We are extremely optimistic about where we?re headed now. Sincere Love and Respect,
Charlie
http://www.springcreeklodge.com/testimo ... l?&page=25 (http://www.springcreeklodge.com/testimonials.html?&page=25)
So much for glowing parent testimonials. This may seem cruel. And it may be cruel, or at least callous. But god damn it! How cold and cruel is it to pretend that these solicited testimonials are evidence that the Program is good and safe? Fuck em all and feed em beans if they don't like it. If Charlie wants to retract his testimonial, I'd be happy to talk to him about it. I'm not hard to contact.
When an innocent Californian millionaire gets killed by a drug squad
trying to seize his house with a bogus search warrant, people better ask themselves if they really want to turn their cops into money-makers.
--Vancouver Police Const. Gil Puder
Post by: Perrigaud on January 08, 2006, 01:59:00 AM
Post by: Antigen on January 08, 2006, 04:35:00 AM
http://www.middletowntranscript.com/Tra ... igwin.html (http://www.middletowntranscript.com/TransArchives/01-31-02/pages/bigwin.html)
http://www.delawaresports.com/news/lacr ... _23_03.htm (http://www.delawaresports.com/news/lacrosse_notes_by_dave_4_23_03.htm)
Laws are like spider webs. If some poor weak creature comes up against them - it is caught. But the bigger one can break through and get away.
-- Solon; Greek philosopher - c.630-c.555 BC
Post by: p on January 08, 2006, 11:19:00 AM
and see what they say then....this is JAIL!!!
nothing less!!! you have been sentenced for being a teen that makes bad choices- how many teens do that...PLEASE!!! wake-up!!!!!!!
Post by: Anonymous on January 08, 2006, 11:40:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on January 08, 2006, 11:41:00 AM
Post by: Antigen on January 08, 2006, 11:46:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-08 04:59:00, Exit Plan wrote:
That's a trip you were able to find that testimonial.
Well, no, and that's the thing. All anyone would have to do is plug the kid's name into a search engine and that's the first hit. Rather flies in the face of all that bullshit about student privacy and anonymity, doesn't it? I mean, isn't that the austensible reason for keeping the kids' locations top secret? To protect their privacy?
But they did exactly the same at Straight and the Seed. The confidentiality rules were enforced to an absolute manic degree. No kid who didn't want to get started over would dare tell anyone, including someone who was there and experienced the same event, any damned thing that went on in that place. But when the Program could get some glowing PR? All bets were off. They'd put the kids at a podeum and have them speak in public, they'd have the parents do just what this guy Charlie did and give statements like that for the media. No shame, no concern for the kid having forever to explain this stuff about having been in a drug rehab for the rest of their life.
The government is much more interested in preserving the purity of its ideology than it is in allowing patients to get effective medicine.
-- Ethan B. Russo, neurologist at Western Montana Clinic
Post by: Anonymous on January 08, 2006, 07:05:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 08, 2006, 07:08:00 PM
Someone stated that Zach's death was possibly a boating accident and did not site a source for that info. This tribute, written by a friend of his, suggests otherwise.
Post by: Troll Control on January 08, 2006, 07:09:00 PM
:skull: SPRING CREEK LODGE KILLS KIDS :skull:
Post by: Anonymous on January 08, 2006, 10:17:00 PM
Shit at the time we I was thankful (so I thought)
I beleived the kid was in a proper boarding shool obtaining a progressive education, MAKING NEW FRIENDS RECIVING THERAPHY AND MORE.
WHO KNEW IT WAS ALL BIG UGLY HORRIFIC LIES.
WWASP claims they have received thousands of Thanl you letters from happy parents. This is how they get the letters. Focus homework....
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 09, 2006, 12:52:00 PM
Post by: TheWho on January 09, 2006, 01:31:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-07 14:41:00, Antigen wrote:
"Quote
To: Spring Creek Lodge This letter of appreciation is for everyone at Spring Creek Lodge for caring enough about this work to help our family. We feel very blessed our son Matt Lockerman is flourishing. We are in Focus and are in a renewed place of ?There are no accidents.? We want you to know we are doing our part and are working the program. We want you to know we are doing our part and are working the program. We have gotten so many wonderful gifts of friendship, feedback, laughter, tears ? We will always be grateful for this journey. We are extremely optimistic about where we?re headed now. Sincere Love and Respect,
Charlie
http://www.springcreeklodge.com/testimo ... l?&page=25 (http://www.springcreeklodge.com/testimonials.html?&page=25)
So much for glowing parent testimonials. This may seem cruel. And it may be cruel, or at least callous. But god damn it! How cold and cruel is it to pretend that these solicited testimonials are evidence that the Program is good and safe? Fuck em all and feed em beans if they don't like it. If Charlie wants to retract his testimonial, I'd be happy to talk to him about it. I'm not hard to contact.When an innocent Californian millionaire gets killed by a drug squad
trying to seize his house with a bogus search warrant, people better ask themselves if they really want to turn their cops into money-makers.
--Vancouver Police Const. Gil Puder
"
Antigen -- How can you possibly connect his death to SCL? Anyone can post a picture of a kid and say "This child is just another example of what youth hockey camp does to kids. This boy attended hockey camp last summer and now he is dead, we should close all hockey camps down!!!".
You have no idea what this child went through or what he was exposed to after SCL, you could blame his family, church choir, old girl friend. Hell maybe if it wasnt for SCL he would have done this years ago.
This is why the list of kids who died (that someone keeps posting) has no meaning because the only qualifications to make the list is dieing after attending a program and we are all going to die whether we attended or not.
The testimonial was a snap shot in time of how he and his family were doing and it seems after SCL he was doing very well, probably much better than before he went in based on the wording. So chances are it wasnt SCL but another stimuli which caused this.
Its amazing how you can only see one cause when there are many possibilities (with much higher probabilities) and the one you chose to believe has documented testimony which lowers its possibility of being the cause for his death.
Kids typically do this due to depression and can be triggered by social issues especially when one is young.
Post by: 69 on January 09, 2006, 02:01:00 PM
Quote
The testimonial was a snap shot in time of how he and his family were doing and it seems after SCL he was doing very well, probably much better than before he went in based on the wording.
The testimonials are written long before the child is sent home. They are written during the parent's Focus seminar, assigned as homework. (sure your familiar with that if you are familiar with WWASP) They wrote this without talking to or seeing how their son was doing. All they have to go on is what SCL tells them - and they lie.
Quote
So chances are it wasnt SCL but another stimuli which caused this.
I actually agree with the presmise of your post. We have no idea why this person committed suicide. How can you say 'chances were it wasn't WWASP', while also arguing the point none of us know? To calculate chance, you must know the variables, which as you pointed out - we don't. Yet.
So you can guess it wasn't because of WWASP, just like some here are guessing it was because of WWASP. How can we do anything else?
Quote
This is why the list of kids who died (that someone keeps posting) has no meaning because the only qualifications to make the list is dieing after attending a program and we are all going to die whether we attended or not.
That's a cold-hearted statement to make. Especially if you are one of these kids:
Karlye Newman
16 years old 10/8/2004
WWASP - Spring Creek Lodge Academy
Suicide by hanging (read article)
Valerie Ann Heron
17 years old
8/10/2001
WWASP - Tranquility Bay
Jumped to death; question if suicide
Why don't you go back and look at the list, and count how many are on there because of suicides after the program. I counted two. Please explain how you can discount the rest of the souls on that list, because you don't agree with two names on the list? I counted a total of 82 other on the children on the list. Some died from restraint aphysixiation, others drowning, others easily treatable illnesses. The majority are from restraints gone wrong.
Does SCL restrain kids? YES. Do they train their staff in the propert technique? NO. So, is there an equally good chance of them killing a kid as the names listed? I would say so.
So, please, explain to all of us again- why should we ignore a list of 82 DEAD children because you have a problem with how two of them got on the list? Get real, please!
PS: the suicide of Cory Murphy is known to be about WWASP. He was about to be sent back after being at WWASP. So, that leaves you with ONE questionable name on the list.
Again, tell me - why should I ignore the other 83 names?
I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure.
--Clarence Darrow
Post by: WWFSMD on January 09, 2006, 02:05:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-09 10:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"This child is just another example of what youth hockey camp does to kids. This boy attended hockey camp last summer and now he is dead, we should close all hockey camps down!!!".
If said hockey camp uses the same degradation and humiliation tactics, limits food intake as punishment, isolates kids from all outside and opposing viewpoints and engages in physical abuse to get their players to perform, then absolutely.
Quote
Kids typically do this due to depression and can be triggered by social issues especially when one is young."
and a simple "attitude problem" (read: most likely normal teen angst) is amplified 100x in a place like SCL and it can turn any bright, independent individual into a sullen, depressed and hopeless child creature.
Laws are like spider webs. If some poor weak creature comes up against them - it is caught. But the bigger one can break through and get away.
-- Solon; Greek philosopher - c.630-c.555 BC
Post by: 69 on January 09, 2006, 02:20:00 PM
Quote
"This child is just another example of what youth hockey camp does to kids. This boy attended hockey camp last summer and now he is dead, we should close all hockey camps down!!!".
How did that kid die?
Did his coach kill him? Did he kill himself because he couldn't stand practice anymore?
The kids on the list peviously posted in this thread died from staff incorrectly restraining them and the resulting aphysixiation, drownings, and some of common illnesses that no one today should die of.
Did the kid who died at hockey camp die because his coach tackled him and sat on top of him for so long he stopped breathing and died? Because that is how the majority of kids died on the list you are talking about.
There is a big difference between an accident playing sports, and an 'accident' involvolving a staff member subduing a student without proper training causing death.
Even if one player murdered another player - there is still a big difference between that and the situation we are describing here.
Do you still wish to maintain this comparison - if so - how did the hockey player die, is the coach at fault?
God grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.
Perl Services
[ This Message was edited by: Exit Plan on 2006-01-09 11:23 ]
Post by: TheWho on January 09, 2006, 02:30:00 PM
Quote
the suicide of Cory Murphy is known to be about WWASP. He was about to be sent back after being at WWASP. So, that leaves you with ONE questionable name on the list.
But caused by WWASP? We dont know
Quote
So, please, explain to all of us again- why should we ignore a list of 82 DEAD children because you have a problem with how two of them got on the list? Get real, please!
I think I said "This is why the list of kids who died (that someone keeps posting) has no meaning because the only qualifications to make the list is dieing after attending a program and we are all going to die whether we attended or not.
I believe it references the list of kids not the kids themselves (big difference). If you add just one name that doesnt belong their it throws into question the entire list and renders it meaningless (or you have to research each name for accuracy which most people dont want to do).
Quote
How can you say 'chances were it wasn't WWASP', while also arguing the point none of us know?
I think I said "The testimonial was a snap shot in time of how he and his family were doing and it seems after SCL he was doing very well, probably much better than before he went in based on the wording. So chances are it wasnt SCL but another stimuli which caused this.
If you have 10 possibilities and I just quess at one I have a 10% chance of being right. So If I choose SCL as being the cause there is a 90% probability I am wrong, just basic statistics from raw data, it could just as well be a fight with his girlfriend or an onset of chemical imbalance of some sort.
I just dont see how you can tie the cause of everyones death back to one event in their lives. The kids died and that is sad but the list is bogus because it has no requirements or conditions in order to be added only the feeling of one person, unless someone does this each name will have to be researched by everyone who reads it which goes against the reason for the list to begin with, you should creat a list with a title and meaning i.e.
"Kids who died while in the care of Programs"
"Kids who died after attending programs by suicide"
"Kids who died by suicide who never attended a program"
or combine them all and deliniate by asterisks etc.
Then be clear on who can get added and who cant. This way the list will have some meaning and comparisons can be made.
But just posting a kids picture because he attended a program and died isnt right.
Post by: 69 on January 09, 2006, 02:41:00 PM
Quote
I believe it references the list of kids not the kids themselves (big difference)..
Well seeing as the list is all that is left of these kids, as they can't speak up for themslevs, it will have to do for now. Why don't the programs keep their own records? Why isn't their a regulatory agency keeping track? Our govt. has statistics on pretty much everything else, why not this? Why do so-called legitimate programs need to donate so much money to political campaigns - why would a politicians ever be against helping kids, that you would need to influence them with money?
Your right, there is a big difference. These kids are no longer among the living.
Quote
If you add just one name that doesnt belong their it throws into question the entire list and renders it meaningless (or you have to research each name for accuracy which most people dont want to do).
I believe the name does belong there. So do many other people. It is you who has a problem with the name. So if you suspect any names on the list to be false, go ahead and do your research. Nobody is paying me enough to do it for you, believe me. If I was a parent about to send my kid way, I would. Wouldn't you? Or better yet, why not ask the programs to keep statistics about kids. Wonder why they don't. :smile:
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.
--Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865)
Post by: Antigen on January 09, 2006, 04:09:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-09 10:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
Antigen -- How can you possibly connect his death to SCL?
Oh, I can't and I don't. How can you possibly connect these thousands of glowing parent testimonials to anything to do with these programs? You can't. They're meaningless. Fraudulent advertising, if ya ask me.
Same w/ a lot of the recent grads. Ya' know, when I got out of Straight during one of the more notorious HRS investigations, they asked me if I had been abused. I didn't know that I had been and so I declined to involve myself in the criminal investigation. Took me some years to understand that I didn't 'do all the necessary things' to get my nose busted and get sat on by half a dozen girls for a couple of hours just for refusing to make an insincere apology to Group for having tried to escape their 'help'.
In a culture based on the oppressive notion that people should be exploited for profit most people can't afford to understand what happened to us in str8.
starry-eyed pirate
_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
Post by: TheWho on January 09, 2006, 04:39:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-09 11:20:00, Exit Plan wrote:
"Quote
"This child is just another example of what youth hockey camp does to kids. This boy attended hockey camp last summer and now he is dead, we should close all hockey camps down!!!".
How did that kid die?
Did his coach kill him? Did he kill himself because he couldn't stand practice anymore?
The kids on the list peviously posted in this thread died from staff incorrectly restraining them and the resulting aphysixiation, drownings, and some of common illnesses that no one today should die of.
Did the kid who died at hockey camp die because his coach tackled him and sat on top of him for so long he stopped breathing and died? Because that is how the majority of kids died on the list you are talking about.
There is a big difference between an accident playing sports, and an 'accident' involvolving a staff member subduing a student without proper training causing death.
Even if one player murdered another player - there is still a big difference between that and the situation we are describing here.
Do you still wish to maintain this comparison - if so - how did the hockey player die, is the coach at fault?God grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.
Perl Services
[ This Message was edited by: Exit Plan on 2006-01-09 11:23 ]"
Quote
Do you still wish to maintain this comparison - if so - how did the hockey player die, is the coach at fault?
Yes, He died at home 3 months after he came home from camp, by suicide. The coach was tough on him and made him skate every day when he was running a fever.
Post by: Anonymous on January 09, 2006, 04:46:00 PM
Quote
The coach was tough on him and made him skate every day when he was running a fever.
And would send your kid to play for this team?
I wouldn't. And I wouldn't send them to SCL either (which is 100 times worse).
That's the whole point.
Post by: TheWho on January 09, 2006, 04:54:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-09 13:09:00, Antigen wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-09 10:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
Antigen -- How can you possibly connect his death to SCL?
Oh, I can't and I don't. How can you possibly connect these thousands of glowing parent testimonials to anything to do with these programs? You can't. They're meaningless. Fraudulent advertising, if ya ask me.
Same w/ a lot of the recent grads. Ya' know, when I got out of Straight during one of the more notorious HRS investigations, they asked me if I had been abused. I didn't know that I had been and so I declined to involve myself in the criminal investigation. Took me some years to understand that I didn't 'do all the necessary things' to get my nose busted and get sat on by half a dozen girls for a couple of hours just for refusing to make an incincere apology to Group for having tried to escape their 'help'.
In a culture based on the oppressive notion that people should be exploited for profit most people can't afford to understand what happened to us in str8.
starry-eyed pirate
"
I believe every instance is independent and different. Some kids come out and do poorly at first and then improve others just the opposite. Some commit suicide and others thrive and have a happy life. Some kids that do well have parents who think they are doing lousy because they have different expectations and vice versa.
Testimonials are factual for the person giving them , at that time. The parents may say the program wasnt worth a penny because their kid came home and moved out, but in accuality the kid is doing excellent, happy, has a job, independent. Other parents may think their kid is doing well and give a positive testimonial and 2 months later he takes his own life.
The kids that do well.... is that due to just time, natural maturity which would have happened anyway without going to a program?
The kids that do poorly or take their lives..... is that the way they are, a chemical imbalance, what would have happened anyway without going to a program?
I dont think we know
Post by: TheWho on January 09, 2006, 05:00:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-09 13:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QuoteThe coach was tough on him and made him skate every day when he was running a fever.
And would send your kid to play for this team?
I wouldn't. And I wouldn't send them to SCL either (which is 100 times worse).
That's the whole point."
No you missed the entire point.
We cannot conclude that the hockey camp caused this kid to kill himself
How can you make that connection? It might have been depression or 100 other social stimuli that causes kids to take their own lives. There is no connection to SCL the same as there is no connection the the kids death and the hockey camp
Post by: 69 on January 09, 2006, 05:17:00 PM
As far as this kid as hockey camp, he could of left, called 911, or numerous other things that a FREE individual might do if they feel they are being mistreated. This is not an option for those locked away, out of sight, out of mind.
Yes, it's sad the kid decided to take his own life. Did he leave a note saying it was because of this hockey camp? Otherwise how do you know, or do you just suspect, as do those on this thread of WWASP. Should I quote your own first post for you?
Hockey camp is not WWASP. You can walk out of hockey camp. Show me a hockey camp that does restraints to keep teens in line. Or one that engages in three day long hysterical LGAT brainwashing sessions. Or one that locks kids up in disgusting isolation holes for indefinite periods of time until they comply with the program. Show me a hockey camp that keeps you locked up for two years. You can't, because the two just don't compare. If this nightmare hockey camp did exist, it would shut down immediately and on all the nightly newsmagazine television shows.
If there were over a thousand hockey camp alumni out there who were now anti-hockey camp, wouldn't you wonder why? If there were a forum as large and busy as fornits dedicated to the horrors of hockey camps, would you not think twice before sending your teen there? If dozens of major media outlets did extensive articles on the abuse and associated lawsuits related to these hockey camps, would you not pause and wonder if this is the best place to send your teen? I sure would, and I think a lot of other parents would too.
The truth is, the two just aren't comparable. Parents, beware!!
PS: Personally, I don't attribute the suicide to SCL until we know. If we ever do. Although, I do know from my own experience there is better treatment out there, and if he was sent somewhere else, that could of made a serious difference.
PSS: It's equally sickening WWASP puts their information up on the web like that. I wonder if they even know?
Hands that help are far better then lips that pray.[ This Message was edited by: Exit Plan on 2006-01-09 15:03 ]
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
Post by: TheWho on January 09, 2006, 05:37:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-09 14:17:00, Exit Plan wrote:
"Note how many kids on the list died of exhaustion related causes and drowning. Those camps actually DID WORK the kids to death. While in the facilities custody.
As far as this kid as hockey camp, he could of left, called 911, or numerous other things that a FREE individual might do if they feel they are being mistreated. This is not an option for those locked away, out of sight, out of mind.
Yes, it's sad the kid decided to take his own life. Did he leave a note saying it was because of this hockey camp? Otherwise how do you know, or do you just suspect, as do those on this thread of WWASP. Should I quote your own first post for you?
Hockey camp is not WWASP. You can walk out of hockey camp. Show me a hockey camp that does restraints to keep teens in line. Or one that engages in three day long hysterical LGAT brainwashing sessions. Or one that locks kids up in disgusting isolation holes for indefinite periods of time until they comply with the program. Show me a hockey camp that keeps you locked up for two years. You can't, because the two just don't compare. If this nightmare hockey camp did exist, it would shut down immediately and on all the nightly newsmagazine television shows.
If there were over a thousand hockey camp alumni out there who were now anti-hockey camp, wouldn't you wonder why? If there were a forum as large and busy as fornits dedicated to the horrors of hockey camps, would you not think twice before sending your teen there? If dozens of major media outlets did extensive articles on the abuse and associated lawsuits related to these hockey camps, would you not pause and wonder if this is the best place to send your teen? I sure would, and I think a lot of other parents would too.
The truth is, the two just aren't comparable. Parents, beware!!Hands that help are far better then lips that pray.[ This Message was edited by: Exit Plan on 2006-01-09 14:20 ]"
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
I am not denying some of these programs are abusive and should be shut down. I think Fomits shows this in volumes.
What I believe takes the wind out of our sails is when we make an uncontrolled list of kids who have died and then start adding names of kids who died after leaving on speculation like: "The boy killed himself because he did not want to go back" or "He killed himself because the program screwed him up".
Parents start seeing this and that is why they dont buy the negative media attention.
kids kill themselves who have never been to a program, in fact for all we know less kids may kill themselves after leaving a program than ones who never attended. We just dont know.
Post by: Antigen on January 09, 2006, 05:52:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-09 14:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
kids kill themselves who have never been to a program, in fact for all we know less kids may kill themselves after leaving a program than ones who never attended. We just dont know.
Sure doesn't look that way from where I sit. Almost everyone I know of who's offed themselves I knew them through the Program. So far, none of my "olddruggiefriends" have done that. Not one. I check from time to time.
Preacher man don't tell me heaven is under the earth; you don't know what life is worth;.......If you know what life is worth, you will look for your's on earth.
--Bob Marley
Post by: 69 on January 09, 2006, 06:02:00 PM
Quote
We just dont know.
I agree with your entire post. Wouldn't it be nice if we did know? It would be nice if states put in their program legislation that they had to keep statistics or something. Until then, the only contact the alumni have is the internet, which is a god-send IMO. Otherwise we'd have no way of ever networking with each other.
Honestly, even if someone did compile the data and proved the amount of suicides post-program, they would just write it off by saying "these kids were already headed that way anyway, we tried out best to prevent it" and shy away from the idea they had helped cause it. So even if there was proof, would it really make a difference? I already know PTSD contributes to suicidal feelings. But that is just me. So who knows.
Quote
kids kill themselves who have never been to a program, in fact for all we know less kids may kill themselves after leaving a program than ones who never attended.
I agree. I would not come out and say as fact, a kid who killed themsleves after the program did so - unless I knew for sure. One thing worth mentioning however, is the regularity at which these suicide posts come up. In all alumni groups and forums and the internet, this seems to be the case. Although with the information we have now one cannot state this as fact, the underlying feeling is there. It would be nice if we had someway of quantifying it.
The first human who hurled an insult instead of a stone was the founder of civilization.
--Sigmund Freud
Post by: TheWho on January 09, 2006, 07:05:00 PM
"From July 1, 1992 to June 30, 2000, 390 school-associated violent deaths occurred on campuses of U.S. elementary or secondary schools. Of these violent deaths, 234 were homicides and 43 were suicides of school-aged youth (ages 5-19). Away from school during roughly the same period, 24,406 children ages 5-19 were victims of homicide and 16,735 children committed suicide. In each school year, youths were at least 70 times more likely to be murdered away from school than at school.
Almost 17,000 kids killed themselves in the 90's and people are demanding a solution
The suicide rate has been climbing the last few years. If you show a picture of a kid who killed himself they can show you hundreds. If they can off load more of these kids to RTC or programs they feel they can deter some of these kids from violence or killing themselves they will, if they can get the funding.
.
If you say they killed themselves because of the programs owners or counselors they will see it as all smoke from previous program attendees.
The good news is they are looking for a model that works well, not nessecarily WWASPs. The bad news is your message is filled with unregulated data and gut feelings. Decisions are not made based on feelings
Post by: TheWho on January 09, 2006, 07:44:00 PM
Quote
Myself, I prefer to focused on the kids who died in the program, which are numerous. The statistics you quoted above included nothing about how many teachers killed their students.
Nobody asked, they are just top level stats, no race, gender, locality, teacher kills student, parent kills student, student kills student etc., no speculation on why the students killed themselves, just that they did and at an alarming rate.
Like yourself the officals are interested in reducing the number of kids killed while at school. If they can reduce that number it will look good come re-election time. If programs show a reduced suicide rate then non-programs they will seek funding to send more public sector kids there.
Post by: TheWho on January 09, 2006, 07:55:00 PM
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That's if you're focusing on the two students in question on the list. This is a small point, in a much larger argument.
We dont know that, we only know of 2, there could be more. We would have to go back and research each one to raise our level of confidence and then republish the list, set very clear boundary conditions and criteria on how someone gets on the list. This is the only way the list would have any meaning otherwise it is someones personal journal.
For example if someone gave you a list of kids who died in the State of New York and you picked a name off the list and researched it and found that the boy actually died in Nevada wouldnt you question the entire list? or would you figure you were lucky and pick out the only mistake on the list and make decisions based on the data?
Post by: TheWho on January 09, 2006, 08:53:00 PM
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On 2006-01-09 17:05:00, Exit Plan wrote:Okay sorry --
"If someone handed me a list of kids who died at programs similar to the one I went to, I know exactly how those kids died. I've seen the circumstances in which the deaths occur. I know how easily it can happen.
As far as the accuracy of the list, someone took the time to compile it, and yes, I believe it until proved wrong. If you are so determined to do this, do it. Maybe WWASP will even pay you. Until this industry regulates itself, it's impossible to gather any data.
I am not focused on the data, and I don't think lists are even effective. The truth is effective. Stories are effective. Seeing people in person, speak truth with raw emotion is what changes things, not lists.
So I am not focused on any list, or statistics, frankly, because they don't exist. One more time - they do not exist. So why argue about it? I am here to tell my story about SCL, and WWASP, a perpsective that completely differs from WWASP's lies. That is where I am coming from. And in my experience, suicide post-program is a issue that needs to be addressed. You can't lock someone up in the twilight zone for two years with complete dependence on a program- where they couldn't kill themsleves if they wanted to- to a completely free environment and not expect negative results. It's a flawed program.
I know who you are. I've seen the numerous endless discussions about statistics and lists, and I won't to go down that endless road with you. So, good luck with your lists- I already have mine.Still, if you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.[ This Message was edited by: Exit Plan on 2006-01-09 17:07 ]"
--Winston Churchill
Why is everyone so afraid of exposing the truth about these programs? Everyone talks about it, about the horrors and the stories. How parents shouldnt send their kids there etc. Carry torches to burn places down, preclude every death with conspiricy.
I havent seen anyone step up and say "We are tired of our kids getting hurt, lets start tracking what these places do and present our findings, lets do something"
All we hear is "There is no data....... all the data would be false anyway....... I am convinced the programs are wrong and that is all that matters to me........If you havent been there you wouldnt understand.....parents are idiots for sending their kids there"
Post by: Anonymous on January 09, 2006, 09:28:00 PM
As others have stated, we may never be able to conduct a valid study on how 100% of students turned out or why they made those choices. But I think the list of names is much longer than the one from my local public high school, or anyone's local public school, for that matter. When I hear names like Karl, Zach, and Valerie, I realize that it could be anyone at all, any gender, any race, any location. I think that parents might think twice about how their kid might end up on this list if they don't act with careful consideration and find their child effective help.
Post by: TheWho on January 09, 2006, 10:29:00 PM
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parents are idiots for sending their kids there
I didn't see anyone post this, but it's an interesting thought.
You havent been here long. Check out discussions where parents are looking for info on prospective programs or advice for their kids. You will see most of the time parents just get blasted and leave, the same with anyone who feels they benefited from a particular program or want to share a positive experience.
After spending some time here you will begin to see that if you are not totally against all programs and hold the believe that no one ever benefited from any of them then you are either brain washed or employed by the school or ed consultant. No time should be spent improving the system so that kids could potentially get help in the future, lets not offer alternatives except "You should have been better parents!!!".
Lets keep everything the same so we can show everyone how bad the places are, if we improve them and the kids start doing well where does that leave us?
You should start listening to some of the kids who did well and from what programs and direct parents to their websites etc.
You dont have to change the world overnight, but start having open dialog with the ones that did well and exploit them. If you give people some info on what is good and bad about each program you will start to get credability....
Anyway in a few months you will beging to realize that the people with a positive experience leave after a few posts and the ones who had a bad experience or never finished hang around forever so you feel you never get a balanced discussion.
Sorry to ramble, just sad to see all this energy go to waste.
Post by: Anonymous on January 09, 2006, 10:44:00 PM
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On 2006-01-09 19:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
You havent been here long. Check out discussions where parents are looking for info on prospective programs or advice for their kids. You will see most of the time parents just get blasted and leave, the same with anyone who feels they benefited from a particular program or want to share a positive experience.
After spending some time here you will begin to see that if you are not totally against all programs and hold the believe that no one ever benefited from any of them then you are either brain washed or employed by the school or ed consultant. No time should be spent improving the system so that kids could potentially get help in the future, lets not offer alternatives except "You should have been better parents!!!".
Yes, some people feel that way and say so. Others feel the way you do and say that. Sometimes discussions disintegrate into verbal violence....seems to be a byproduct of both the industry and the simple nature of message boards. But there is a helluva lot of good information here for anyone willing to look. All opinions are represented here.
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Anyway in a few months you will beging to realize that the people with a positive experience leave after a few posts
A lot of them get really scared when you try to get them to apply some critical thinking skills. They suddenly aware that the emperor has no clothes.
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and the ones who had a bad experience or never finished hang around forever so you feel you never get a balanced discussion.
I graduate from the place I was in. Was considered a *success* for a while. Until I started to drift out from under their control. Only THEN did I become a *failure*.
>
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Sorry to ramble, just sad to see all this energy go to waste.
"
Ah, but it doesn't. This site serves a purpose. You don't have to agree with everything here to get some valid extremely usefull info and insight here. If you don't find all of what you're looking for then Nospank serves a purpose. AskQuestions serves a purpose. All the Myspace sites popping up serve a purpose. Its all one little niche that each one serves that adds up to hopefully some kind of realization of what the hell is going on in this industry.
Post by: Antigen on January 10, 2006, 03:22:00 AM
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On 2006-01-09 16:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
Like yourself the officals are interested in reducing the number of kids killed while at school. If they can reduce that number it will look good come re-election time. If programs show a reduced suicide rate then non-programs they will seek funding to send more public sector kids there."
Yes, but they're going about it the same way the Bush admin went looking for WMD; they simply know the Program works and dismiss as lies and manipulation any evidence to the contrary.
Redemption: Deliverance of sinners from the penalty of their sins through the murder of their deity against whom they sinned.
--Ambrose Bierce
Post by: Antigen on January 10, 2006, 03:54:00 AM
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On 2006-01-09 19:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
Anyway in a few months you will beging to realize that the people with a positive experience leave after a few posts and the ones who had a bad experience or never finished hang around forever so you feel you never get a balanced discussion.
You seem to feel persecuted, but I think you're misinterpreting things. Anybody expressing any opinion on any topic about which people feel strongly is bound to run into contradictory views, unless there's some effective effort to crush dissent.
Just because not everyone agrees with you doesn't mean you're persecuted.
As to making the industry better, well we have to start by defining the industry. It ain't edcation, it's not medical, it's something entirely different. I don't think it can be improved, as such, because I've seen this ol'e soft shoe over and over again for the past 20+ years. Look! WWASP and AIR are giving a command performance of it right now.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?So ... 4&forum=44 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?Sort=U&topic=13354&forum=44)
It's a scam, darlin. No matter how hard you wish otherwise or how many times you tap your heels together.
The introduction of a Creator has done our independence no good.
--Gore Vidal, author
Post by: Anonymous on January 10, 2006, 01:48:00 PM
Training consists of extensive Mandt certification, with regular recertification for ALL staff. This is documented. And the principle behind it is to AVOID restraint unless absolutely necessary for the safety of the child or other children. Even then, the restraints are absolutely minimal. And this is nothing new. SCL has done this for years.
With this, as with all claims pro or con, whether it involves lists of deaths or claims about individual programs, credibility suffers with every inaccuracy. It's not nit-picking. Accuracy lends credibility. Inaccuracies---even small ones--create an impression of hysteria. Drama is a short-term strategy and is largely ineffective.
Consider the possibilty that some of the thousands of people who work at programs--whether it's teaching, counseling, whatever--share with you the hope of helping kids and seeing them get healthy long-term. There are actually folks out there---intelligent, sensitive, hard-working, compassionate--who simply disagree with you on how it should happen.
My suggestion: If you want to see change, go about it respectfully, and look carefully and objectively at what each individual program or school is doing. You would be amazed at how close your goals and theirs are.
Post by: Anonymous on January 10, 2006, 02:33:00 PM
He takes his job very seriously and would NEVER attempt to harm one of the students at SCL. He hates doing restraints and tries to avoid them at all costs. He has been trained to try all other methods of calming a situation down before it gets to the point of having to restrain someone who is a threat to themselves or others. Like I've said before, not everyone that works there is an unskilled hick that gets off on hurting others. There are people like my husband who do actually care and would like to make a difference in these kids lives.
Post by: p on January 10, 2006, 02:52:00 PM
i have been there...it is nothing less than a jail, for parents who have money and not the time...
wake up, to the real world and the real harm these places do...go stay there for a month and then write back.
Post by: Troll Control on January 10, 2006, 02:58:00 PM
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On 2006-01-10 11:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"As for the MANDT training at SCL, I know for a fact that it happens since my husband will spend his weekend off getting his recertification. I don't know what staff told you that they don't get trained Exit Plan, but they do. Could your staff have been new and the next training hadn't come up yet? I can't speak for them, but I can speak for my husband and he is certified and will be doing recertification very soon.
He takes his job very seriously and would NEVER attempt to harm one of the students at SCL. He hates doing restraints and tries to avoid them at all costs. He has been trained to try all other methods of calming a situation down before it gets to the point of having to restrain someone who is a threat to themselves or others. Like I've said before, not everyone that works there is an unskilled hick that gets off on hurting others. There are people like my husband who do actually care and would like to make a difference in these kids lives."
What are your husband's credentials to be working with disturbed kids?
Does he have a master's degree in a mental health discipline? Most of these places hire seriously underqualified personnel.
Post by: Anonymous on January 10, 2006, 05:05:00 PM
I'm not a troll and I don't agree with everything that goes on at SCL. That's one of the reasons I left because I couldn't and wouldn't agree with some of their policies. I just don't like the fact that everyone thinks that all the staff that work there are bad apples. I'm all for making changes in the programs that are out there. It's why I've been lurking and reading all this information.
I just don't completely agree with either side. I, for one, never saw some of the things that are written on here ever happen. Kids aren't kept in the "Hobbit" for days and weeks without food. They are taken to intervention for a period of about 30 minutes. If they are compliant then they go back to the family or worksheets. They do receive meals and water. I've even taken meals up there before. I also was up there on many occaisions to look at students that had cuts or scrapes and to take care of them since I was part of the Nursing staff. They were never denied medical treatment either. I would even go up there on my breaks to check on kids that I was concerned about.
I didn't agree with some of the consequences that I had to give out while I was a family mom. Some of them were stupid and petty and I refused to do it. I then was called a "caretaker" by my supervisor and was told I was being moved into Worksheets to "toughen me up" As far as I was concerned, if caring about these kids made me a caretaker then so be it! I'm a CARETAKER and proud of it! :grin:
And I will get a screen name as soon as I figure out how to do it properly. :roll: I've only posted here one other time I think, so I'm not sure of the procedure. I don't like being Anonymous and since I don't work there anymore I'm not afraid of losing my job over posting on here...now my hubby, that's another story. He might be the one to suffer for my opinion.
Quote
On 2006-01-10 11:58:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-10 11:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"As for the MANDT training at SCL, I know for a fact that it happens since my husband will spend his weekend off getting his recertification. I don't know what staff told you that they don't get trained Exit Plan, but they do. Could your staff have been new and the next training hadn't come up yet? I can't speak for them, but I can speak for my husband and he is certified and will be doing recertification very soon.
He takes his job very seriously and would NEVER attempt to harm one of the students at SCL. He hates doing restraints and tries to avoid them at all costs. He has been trained to try all other methods of calming a situation down before it gets to the point of having to restrain someone who is a threat to themselves or others. Like I've said before, not everyone that works there is an unskilled hick that gets off on hurting others. There are people like my husband who do actually care and would like to make a difference in these kids lives."
What are your husband's credentials to be working with disturbed kids?
Does he have a master's degree in a mental health discipline? Most of these places hire seriously underqualified personnel."
Post by: Troll Control on January 10, 2006, 05:46:00 PM
Your story is illustrative of how places like SCL operate. They advertise as a therapeutic community, but when you get down to the brass tacks, there aren't qualified people giving therapy to the kids. They're cared for by non-professionals who receive their training from the facility. This is problematic because these people don't have the educational background to assess the effectiveness of the "treatment" they are providing.
I'm not saying your husband isn't a good man. On the contrary, I take your word for it that he is exactly that. The problem arises, though, that your husband isn't properly educated to understand when a practice is ABUSIVE or HARMFUL PSYCHOLOGICALLY. He is simply relying on the trainingg SCL provided him and his bosses' assurances that this type of treatment is what these kids actually need.
Sadly, it is widely known in the mental health community that the type of "treatment" provided by SCL doesn't work to address mental illnesses or mood disorders. It actually exacerbates these problems.
In my view it is incumbent upon the direct care givers to recognize that the children are done grave harm by these methodologies, but, unfortunately, they, like your husband, simply aren't equipped to make these judgements, so they just "go with the program." In this respect, perfectly good people are complicit in the harming of these children, albeit unknowingly at times.
Therein lies the crux of the problem, not in the moral uprightness of the staff.
Remeber the saying "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions"? Well, even the best intentioned folks are not automatically equipped to deal with the serious problems with which these kids present. That is the job of true, educated professionals who KNOW what's best for the well being of the children, not good-intentioned, uneducated, unprofessional, unlicensed caretakers.
Post by: TheWho on January 10, 2006, 06:29:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-10 14:46:00, Anonymous wrote:Lets boil this down a little:
"Nobody said having a degree makes one a better person.
Your story is illustrative of how places like SCL operate. They advertise as a therapeutic community, but when you get down to the brass tacks, there aren't qualified people giving therapy to the kids. They're cared for by non-professionals who receive their training from the facility. This is problematic because these people don't have the educational background to assess the effectiveness of the "treatment" they are providing.
I'm not saying your husband isn't a good man. On the contrary, I take your word for it that he is exactly that. The problem arises, though, that your husband isn't properly educated to understand when a practice is ABUSIVE or HARMFUL PSYCHOLOGICALLY. He is simply relying on the trainingg SCL provided him and his bosses' assurances that this type of treatment is what these kids actually need.
Sadly, it is widely known in the mental health community that the type of "treatment" provided by SCL doesn't work to address mental illnesses or mood disorders. It actually exacerbates these problems.
In my view it is incumbent upon the direct care givers to recognize that the children are done grave harm by these methodologies, but, unfortunately, they, like your husband, simply aren't equipped to make these judgements, so they just "go with the program." In this respect, perfectly good people are complicit in the harming of these children, albeit unknowingly at times.
Therein lies the crux of the problem, not in the moral uprightness of the staff.
Remeber the saying "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions"? Well, even the best intentioned folks are not automatically equipped to deal with the serious problems with which these kids present. That is the job of true, educated professionals who KNOW what's best for the well being of the children, not good-intentioned, uneducated, unprofessional, unlicensed caretakers."
***In my view.........That is the job of true, educated professionals who KNOW what's best for the well being of the children, not good-intentioned, uneducated, unprofessional, unlicensed caretakers." *****
You mentioned that he is a nice guy, great. But where are *your qualifications* for determining how much education or compassion a person needs for each position? You left that out. How well intentioned does a person need to be? Can a person hold a PHD but dislike children? Are they disqualified because they spent all there savings aquiring a bachelors degree and want to work their way towards a masters by working with kids or should we send that person packing and hire the PHD guy who only wants to advance his career and move on.
Post by: Troll Control on January 10, 2006, 06:47:00 PM
What I said was the problem with places like SCL is that the people working there are often not qualified to determine what is helpful and what is harmful. For the money that this place is raking in, I don't see it as far fetched that they should have qualified AND caring staff. If they paid an adequate wage, they would attract this type of employee.
I would say, though, that places like this DON'T want highly educated staff because the staff would then have legitimate concerns about the "treatment" modality. Having worked in two of these places, I can say from experience that they would rather have employees athat are easily controlled and who implement the program without question.
The rest of what you said needs clarification because I'm not sure what you're driving at. It seems more argumentative than anything else. I think it's fairly obvious that I, as a child advocate, don't believe people who hate children should be working with them and that JUST because one has an education it does not necessarily follow that they are a good fit.
Post by: Anonymous on January 10, 2006, 06:48:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-10 15:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QuoteLets boil this down a little:
On 2006-01-10 14:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Nobody said having a degree makes one a better person.
Your story is illustrative of how places like SCL operate. They advertise as a therapeutic community, but when you get down to the brass tacks, there aren't qualified people giving therapy to the kids. They're cared for by non-professionals who receive their training from the facility. This is problematic because these people don't have the educational background to assess the effectiveness of the "treatment" they are providing.
I'm not saying your husband isn't a good man. On the contrary, I take your word for it that he is exactly that. The problem arises, though, that your husband isn't properly educated to understand when a practice is ABUSIVE or HARMFUL PSYCHOLOGICALLY. He is simply relying on the trainingg SCL provided him and his bosses' assurances that this type of treatment is what these kids actually need.
Sadly, it is widely known in the mental health community that the type of "treatment" provided by SCL doesn't work to address mental illnesses or mood disorders. It actually exacerbates these problems.
In my view it is incumbent upon the direct care givers to recognize that the children are done grave harm by these methodologies, but, unfortunately, they, like your husband, simply aren't equipped to make these judgements, so they just "go with the program." In this respect, perfectly good people are complicit in the harming of these children, albeit unknowingly at times.
Therein lies the crux of the problem, not in the moral uprightness of the staff.
Remeber the saying "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions"? Well, even the best intentioned folks are not automatically equipped to deal with the serious problems with which these kids present. That is the job of true, educated professionals who KNOW what's best for the well being of the children, not good-intentioned, uneducated, unprofessional, unlicensed caretakers."
***In my view.........That is the job of true, educated professionals who KNOW what's best for the well being of the children, not good-intentioned, uneducated, unprofessional, unlicensed caretakers." *****
You mentioned that he is a nice guy, great. But where are *your qualifications* for determining how much education or compassion a person needs for each position? You left that out. How well intentioned does a person need to be? Can a person hold a PHD but dislike children? Are they disqualified because they spent all there savings aquiring a bachelors degree and want to work their way towards a masters by working with kids or should we send that person packing and hire the PHD guy who only wants to advance his career and move on.
"
What are my qualifications for determining how much education or compassion a person needs?? This wasn't what I was asked. I was asked what my husbands qualifications were not mine. I never claimed to be qualified to make that judgement. I was just stating what I felt about my husband and his desire to work with these kids. Excuse me for even attempting to get my feelings across and to point out that not everyone that works for SCL is out to "hurt" these kids. I just wanted to show that there are some caring people out there and that we are trying to do something to make a difference.
I stated that I left because I disagreed with how things are done there. That's one of the reasons I started coming to this site, to gain knowledge about what CAN be done to make the changes.
I was scared to death to even post anything because I've seen how people that don't agree with the majority on here are slammed and have their words twisted. I guess I won't put myself through it again. I'm sorry I even tried to explain what I felt.
The one good thing that has come from my experience at SCL( and this goes for my "uneducated and unqualified" husband)is that I'm going back to school to finish my degree and he has decided to pursue his education in a counseling degree. Maybe then he'll be given the credit he deserves.
Post by: TheWho on January 10, 2006, 06:51:00 PM
Quote
I think it's fairly obvious that I, as a child advocate, don't believe people who hate children should be working with them and that JUST because one has an education it does not necessarily follow that they are a good fit.
That did not come acrossed in your post,maybe I read too much into it, thanks for clarifying. I feel the same way.
Post by: Troll Control on January 10, 2006, 07:10:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-10 15:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QuoteI think it's fairly obvious that I, as a child advocate, don't believe people who hate children should be working with them and that JUST because one has an education it does not necessarily follow that they are a good fit.
That did not come acrossed in your post,maybe I read too much into it, thanks for clarifying. I feel the same way."
Great. Maybe I'm having difficulty expressing myself today...?
I probably should have logged in as well. You and I are usually on the same page and I greatly respect your opinions in general.
Sorry for any confusion.
Post by: Troll Control on January 10, 2006, 08:18:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-10 15:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-10 15:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QuoteLets boil this down a little:
On 2006-01-10 14:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Nobody said having a degree makes one a better person.
Your story is illustrative of how places like SCL operate. They advertise as a therapeutic community, but when you get down to the brass tacks, there aren't qualified people giving therapy to the kids. They're cared for by non-professionals who receive their training from the facility. This is problematic because these people don't have the educational background to assess the effectiveness of the "treatment" they are providing.
I'm not saying your husband isn't a good man. On the contrary, I take your word for it that he is exactly that. The problem arises, though, that your husband isn't properly educated to understand when a practice is ABUSIVE or HARMFUL PSYCHOLOGICALLY. He is simply relying on the trainingg SCL provided him and his bosses' assurances that this type of treatment is what these kids actually need.
Sadly, it is widely known in the mental health community that the type of "treatment" provided by SCL doesn't work to address mental illnesses or mood disorders. It actually exacerbates these problems.
In my view it is incumbent upon the direct care givers to recognize that the children are done grave harm by these methodologies, but, unfortunately, they, like your husband, simply aren't equipped to make these judgements, so they just "go with the program." In this respect, perfectly good people are complicit in the harming of these children, albeit unknowingly at times.
Therein lies the crux of the problem, not in the moral uprightness of the staff.
Remeber the saying "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions"? Well, even the best intentioned folks are not automatically equipped to deal with the serious problems with which these kids present. That is the job of true, educated professionals who KNOW what's best for the well being of the children, not good-intentioned, uneducated, unprofessional, unlicensed caretakers."
***In my view.........That is the job of true, educated professionals who KNOW what's best for the well being of the children, not good-intentioned, uneducated, unprofessional, unlicensed caretakers." *****
You mentioned that he is a nice guy, great. But where are *your qualifications* for determining how much education or compassion a person needs for each position? You left that out. How well intentioned does a person need to be? Can a person hold a PHD but dislike children? Are they disqualified because they spent all there savings aquiring a bachelors degree and want to work their way towards a masters by working with kids or should we send that person packing and hire the PHD guy who only wants to advance his career and move on.
"
What are my qualifications for determining how much education or compassion a person needs?? This wasn't what I was asked. I was asked what my husbands qualifications were not mine. I never claimed to be qualified to make that judgement. I was just stating what I felt about my husband and his desire to work with these kids. Excuse me for even attempting to get my feelings across and to point out that not everyone that works for SCL is out to "hurt" these kids. I just wanted to show that there are some caring people out there and that we are trying to do something to make a difference.
I stated that I left because I disagreed with how things are done there. That's one of the reasons I started coming to this site, to gain knowledge about what CAN be done to make the changes.
I was scared to death to even post anything because I've seen how people that don't agree with the majority on here are slammed and have their words twisted. I guess I won't put myself through it again. I'm sorry I even tried to explain what I felt.
The one good thing that has come from my experience at SCL( and this goes for my "uneducated and unqualified" husband)is that I'm going back to school to finish my degree and he has decided to pursue his education in a counseling degree. Maybe then he'll be given the credit he deserves."
Lady, nobody attacked you or your husband. People have presented rational arguments about what the staff qualifications should be.
I personally made a point to say that I took your word for it that your hubby is a great guy who genuinely wants to help. I myself was one of those people. That's why I left those facilities. My judgements as an educated professional were that no matter how much I wanted to help, I would be unable to do so within the context of an abusive BM program.
I do not view it as your husband is the problem. I view it as the facility has a responsibility to hire the right people. It's solely their fault that they do not have proper staff in place.
Frankly, it seems that your sense of being attacked is not based in the reality of what anyone has said. Everyone who has posted has said "that's great that you and your husband are wonderful people, but why does that matter when children are being abused at that facility?"
So, settle down, make your points logically and you will be responded to in kind. There is absolutely no rational reason for you to be afraid of anything that goes on here. It's a message board, lady, not a panel of executioners.
Post by: TheWho on January 11, 2006, 09:21:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-10 16:56:00, Exit Plan wrote:
"Quote
I was scared to death to even post anything because I've seen how people that don't agree with the majority on here are slammed and have their words twisted. I guess I won't put myself through it again. I'm sorry I even tried to explain what I felt.
You are hardly getting slammed. Getting slammed is going to a WWASP seminar facilitated by Gilcrease and being verbally humiliated and torn down emotionally in front of a hundred strangers.
If you refuse in a seminar, you get sent to the hobbit.
At least here you can simply turn off your computer.Totalitarianism is like a specter which drinks the blood of the living and so achieves reality, while the victims go on existing as a mass of living corpses.
Karl Jaspers, The Fight Against Totalitarianism (1963)
"
No, both are examples of getting slammed. You have experience in one and she has an experience in another. They are both very real to the person getting slammed, try not to minimalize a persons experience and how it affected them.
Post by: Troll Control on January 11, 2006, 09:53:00 AM
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On 2006-01-11 06:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
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On 2006-01-10 16:56:00, Exit Plan wrote:
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I was scared to death to even post anything because I've seen how people that don't agree with the majority on here are slammed and have their words twisted. I guess I won't put myself through it again. I'm sorry I even tried to explain what I felt.
You are hardly getting slammed. Getting slammed is going to a WWASP seminar facilitated by Gilcrease and being verbally humiliated and torn down emotionally in front of a hundred strangers.
If you refuse in a seminar, you get sent to the hobbit.
At least here you can simply turn off your computer.Totalitarianism is like a specter which drinks the blood of the living and so achieves reality, while the victims go on existing as a mass of living corpses.
Karl Jaspers, The Fight Against Totalitarianism (1963)
"
No, both are examples of getting slammed. You have experience in one and she has an experience in another. They are both very real to the person getting slammed, try not to minimalize a persons experience and how it affected them."
I'm sorry, but you are incorrect. Nobody made any comments slamming this woman. She is unable or unwilling to accept valid criticism about SCL and their quality of staff. She views those valid criticisms (which, by the way were clarified by the posters saying that they did not doubt the she and her husband ARE good people) as personal attacks against her and her husband.
Your statement simply isn't valid. Did yo read the posts or are you just saying that because she FEELS attacked she WAS attacked. If so, that just doesn't float.
Post by: Anonymous on January 11, 2006, 10:11:00 AM
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No, both are examples of getting slammed. You have experience in one and she has an experience in another. They are both very real to the person getting slammed, try not to minimalize a persons experience and how it affected them.
Ah- except for the tiny detail people come here willingly and can come willingly, and I don't have the power to lock you up in isolation in disgusting conditions if you don't agree with me. How would fornits be if kids had THAT power over you - imagine that- you you might get a small glimpse of what it's like being locked up at WWASP, obviously you have no idea judging by your comment above.
Post by: Antigen on January 11, 2006, 11:10:00 AM
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On 2006-01-10 11:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
As for the MANDT training at SCL, I know for a fact that it happens since my husband will spend his weekend off getting his recertification.
Yup, they did things like that at Straight, too. Oh, they'd hire someone w/ a title; occasionally someone who was almost reasonably qualified, at least on paper. They'd send their peer staff to St. Pete Jr. College to get mandated pieces of paper. But the training goes out the window before the ink is dry on the certificate. When you've got special awareness and a higher calling, you can justify ANY damned thing! Anything!
The way I learned it in school (real school) the end can never justify the means because only God can be sure how anything will end.
I tend to disagree w/ my early teachers on some specific points of fact (i.e. I haven't had an imaginary friend since I was about 8. His name was Charlie) But they were very clear headed on other things.
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.
--Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865)
Post by: Antigen on January 11, 2006, 11:17:00 AM
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On 2006-01-10 14:36:00, Exit Plan wrote:
Even if your husband has a good heart, the policy is equally frightening, because how can one test if someone has a good heart?
Well, there's the nut of it. Only a skilled facilitator or trainer can spot a good or bad heard. They're the only ones who have the awareness, the active, lively, all knowing, omnicient inner child. Sure, some lower level people might be right about it some of the time. But only someone who really, really "gets" the program can make such a determination.
That's the test. They only get the credentials to humor us poor, unenlightened outlanders who just don't or can't "get it".
Peace and abstinence from European interferences are our objects, and so will continue while the present order of things in America remain uninterrupted.
--Thomas Jefferson
Post by: Anonymous on January 11, 2006, 09:30:00 PM
Should a nice guy with a CPR certification be allowed to do open heart surgery?
I don't doubt your husband might be a nice guy, but let's clarify the term "qualified". It doesn't mean having a CPR card and attending a one day training on takedowns. I think the counselors should have Bachelor's degrees in Psychology, Behavioral Science, or Social Work which would indicate that they've had YEARS of studying the origins of behavior, successful interventions, drug addictions, sexual abuse survivors, dignified behavioral interventions, and much more.
The only WWASP qualification I seem to notice is the need to have a family connection to another staff member.
Parents with college degrees and years of parenting experience show they're giving up in a sense by sending their kids away. They probably don't realize that their kids will be raised by people with VERY LITTLE training who are scarcely older than the kids themselves.
Post by: TheWho on January 11, 2006, 10:17:00 PM
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On 2006-01-11 07:29:00, Exit Plan wrote:
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No, both are examples of getting slammed. You have experience in one and she has an experience in another. They are both very real to the person getting slammed, try not to minimalize a persons experience and how it affected them.
I have experience in both versions of 'getting slammed', and I can tell you right now, the two aren't comparable. This is an internet forum where lively debate takes place, if you can't handle that - you would of killed yourself after a WWASP seminar. If you refuse to participate there Gilcrease would send ya to the hobbit. That's an isolation cell that is disgusting. Why lock kids up like that?
Would you come to this forum if the anti-program folks here had the power to lock you up in a tiny cell for as long as they wish - just because you don't accept their views? There'd be a lot of locked up parents, wouldn't you say? That's exactly the situation at SCL. So please, don't tell me about my own experiences. Almost all posters who have spent time here have been slammed, nobody is denying that. However, those of us who have experienced both seminars and fornits laugh at your comparison it's so off-base. What a ridiculous analogy to make. :roll:"The Libertarian Party is a coalition of those who hold dear the economic freedoms championed by conservatives, yet abandoned by Republicans, and the civil freedoms championed by liberals, yet abandoned by Democrats.""
--Rick Root
I think this is what the person was refering to:
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You are hardly getting slammed. Getting slammed is going to a WWASP seminar facilitated by Gilcrease and being verbally humiliated and torn down emotionally in front of a hundred strangers.
You shouldnt minimalize or try to tell someone else how they should feel. If a person feels slammed they feel slammed. You cant compare and say your experience was worse or better. They may feel worse than being humiliated in front of hundred strangers, its not for us to say.
Just accept someones feelings
Post by: TheWho on January 11, 2006, 10:33:00 PM
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Parents with college degrees and years of parenting experience show they're giving up in a sense by sending their kids away.
This is true. A parent sometimes gets to the point where they feel they cant help their son or daughter anymore or protect them from the choices they are making. They have tried everything they know and have been taught and their child and the family is still in crisis.
The only logical next step is to seek outside help, someone who can step in and help and that is where these TBS can become an asset. It is buyer beware like anything else, research, get advice and choose a place that is safe and a good match for your family. There are kids dieing of overdoses, aids, running away never to return also, so each choice is a risk. The trick is which one to choose for someone you love.
Post by: Anonymous on January 11, 2006, 10:48:00 PM
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You shouldnt minimalize or try to tell someone else how they should feel. If a person feels slammed they feel slammed. You cant compare and say your experience was worse or better. They may feel worse than being humiliated in front of hundred strangers, its not for us to say.
Just accept someones feelings
can you quote where this person was slammed.. i dont see it? does anyone else see it? it sounds more like an excuse to not answer the dozens of unanswerable questions posed by many people. ive seen the "stop abusing me" so im leaving shit before... nothing knew. stand up for your beliefs if you believe this program works. dont make excuses. wheres the slamming going on here?
Post by: Antigen on January 18, 2006, 01:36:00 AM
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On 2006-01-11 19:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
This is true. A parent sometimes gets to the point where they feel they cant help their son or daughter anymore or protect them from the choices they are making. They have tried everything they know and have been taught and their child and the family is still in crisis.
Yes. I'd even venture to guess that damned near every parent reaches that point sometimes. Sane people love them anyway. It takes a real freak to ship them off to be denutted like a poorly behaved dog.
And I don't care if you take that personally and find it offensive. If you don't want to read things like that, well then you'll have to stick w/ Lon's site and Program approved websites. Pretty much the rest of the civilized world seems to feel the same way once they understand what we're talking about.
Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
-- Emo Phillips
_________________
Drug war POW Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
Post by: TheWho on January 18, 2006, 08:44:00 AM
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On 2006-01-17 22:36:00, Antigen wrote:What I read is the person has tried everything they know to help their child and the family is still in crisis. I would disagree that very few families get to the point of having to ask for outside help to keep their children safe. How does this relate to not loving your child? If your child gets sick and you have exhausted everything you know of to help him, exhausted all your personal time at work to stay with him and he isnt getting any better or maybe getting worse, would it be unloving to seek outside help? Would you consider this shipping him off to like a dog?
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On 2006-01-11 19:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
This is true. A parent sometimes gets to the point where they feel they cant help their son or daughter anymore or protect them from the choices they are making. They have tried everything they know and have been taught and their child and the family is still in crisis.
Yes. I'd even venture to guess that damned near every parent reaches that point sometimes. Sane people love them anyway. It takes a real freak to ship them off to be denutted like a poorly behaved dog.
And I don't care if you take that personally and find it offensive. If you don't want to read things like that, well then you'll have to stick w/ Lon's site and Program approved websites. Pretty much the rest of the civilized world seems to feel the same way once they understand what we're talking about.Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
-- Emo Phillips
_________________
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82"
Post by: Anonymous on January 18, 2006, 08:49:00 AM
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On 2006-01-18 05:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
If your child gets sick and you have exhausted everything you know of to help him,
Maybe its not the kid that's sick, maybe its the parents.
Post by: WWFSMD on January 18, 2006, 08:59:00 AM
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On 2006-01-11 19:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
A parent sometimes gets to the point where they feel they cant help their son or daughter anymore or protect them from the choices they are making.
Its no wonder parents feel that way....it's TRUE! You can't[/b] protect them from choices they are making at some point. That's one of the whole points that we're trying to make. The only way to force someone to change against their will is to break them first. Not a healthy option.
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The only logical next step is to seek outside help, someone who can step in and help
Help is one thing, abuse and mindrape in a far off place at the hands of total strangers is quite another.
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There are kids dieing of overdoses, aids, running away never to return also,
Yes, but those percentages are FAR lower than any of the TBS/RTC/Bootcamp/Wilderness programs will have you believe. Its all part and parcel of the fear mongering.
You have rights atecedent to all earthly governments; rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws; rights derived from the Great Legislator of the Universe.
John Adams
Post by: TheWho on January 18, 2006, 08:59:00 AM
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On 2006-01-18 05:49:00, Anonymous wrote:Well I guess that is possible, I think in most cases the parents know if a child is sick or not. My uncle is a doctor and there are very few cases where the adult brings in a sick child and it turns out to be the adult. I believe you are thinking of "manchunsian by proxy", not sure of the spelling, but I know what you mean. I dont believe that applies because the adult (with this disorder) typically wants to be part of the care and shipping a child off would defeat the purpose of that desease. So I would rule this out.
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On 2006-01-18 05:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
If your child gets sick and you have exhausted everything you know of to help him,
Maybe its not the kid that's sick, maybe its the parents."
Post by: TheWho on January 18, 2006, 09:12:00 AM
If children are hurting themselves or heading down a path you know to be distructive, there has to be a way to intervene and turn it around. The only reason the industry exists is because there is a need!! Someone needs to try and help them, if a solution did not exist someone would create one or at least attempt.
**** Help is one thing, abuse and mindrape in a far off place at the hands of total strangers is quite another ****
I agree most of these kids are getting the abuse and mindrapes at home by their friends or drug dealers, they dont need to be sent away for that, most parents are only looking to get them help and place them on a safe path
***** Yes, but those percentages are FAR lower than any of the TBS/RTC/Bootcamp/Wilderness programs will have you believe. Its all part and parcel of the fear mongering *****
Percentages we dont have, I disagree
Post by: WWFSMD on January 18, 2006, 09:39:00 AM
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On 2006-01-18 06:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
If children are hurting themselves or heading down a path you know to be distructive, there has to be a way to intervene and turn it around. The only reason the industry exists is because there is a need!!
And that's what would make you a prime target for these places. There are a few reasons this industry exists, but need is not one of them. There may be a perceived need, but its not reality. Money, desire for guru status, well-intentioned but misguided samaritans, control....those are some of the main reasons this industry exists.
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I agree most of these kids are getting the abuse and mindrapes at home by their friends or drug dealers, they dont need to be sent away for that, most parents are only looking to get them help and place them on a safe path
***** Yes, but those percentages are FAR lower than any of the TBS/RTC/Bootcamp/Wilderness programs will have you believe. Its all part and parcel of the fear mongering *****
Percentages we dont have, I disagree"
Yeah, I know. The kid's gonna DIE without the program. :roll: Start here. http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/lib ... fax.htm#q3 (http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/library/basicfax.htm#q3)
?
Everything in moderation, including moderation.
Mark Twain
Post by: TheWho on January 18, 2006, 09:59:00 AM
You can spin it anyway you want, but you are not going to walk into a car dealership unless you are looking for a car !!! and people need cars. The industry is needed by many and I agree abused and misrepresented by some. But people are seeking help for their kids.
*****Yes, but those percentages are FAR lower than any of the TBS/RTC/Bootcamp/Wilderness programs will have you believe. Its all part and parcel of the fear mongering *****
Most parents are not concerned with cigarette smoking or alcohol, they have a child in crisis, who is heading down a destructive path , who is harming themselves and their family. This isnt a sales pitch that someone tells them, it is what they are living.
Now I agree that they may gets some bad advice on possible solutions. Some of these places are not great for kids and not all kids belong in all of these places. A parent needs to get themselves well informed before choosing a solution that fits their family
Post by: Antigen on January 18, 2006, 10:35:00 AM
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On 2006-01-18 05:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
What I read is the person has tried everything they know to help their child and the family is still in crisis. I would disagree that very few families get to the point of having to ask for outside help to keep their children safe.
Really? What I read is that the parents have knocked on every door and rung every phone they know of and the consensus among local authorities, educators and professionals does not support locking the kid up. So, like a pill junkie shopping doctors, they keep at it till they find you to support their delusions.
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How does this relate to not loving your child?
Oh, I didn't say they don't love their kids. I said their freaks for rejecting their kid in favor of a broken, tamed, shadow of their former selves.
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If your child gets sick and you have exhausted everything you know of to help him, exhausted all your personal time at work to stay with him and he isnt getting any better or maybe getting worse, would it be unloving to seek outside help?
Look at the topic heading again. Do you still think these parents made the right choice for their kid? Do you really believe these programs are safer than the real world for the kids? I don't. The evidence doesn't bear it out.
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Would you consider this shipping him off to like a dog?
Yeah, I do.
I'm a PATRIOT because I believe in the nations ability to un-fuck itself.
--Nihilanthic
Post by: WWFSMD on January 18, 2006, 10:36:00 AM
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On 2006-01-18 06:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
You can spin it anyway you want, but you are not going to walk into a car dealership unless you are looking for a car !!! and people need cars. The industry is needed by many and I agree abused and misrepresented by some. But people are seeking help for their kids.
No one needs that kind of "help". The industry in not needed by many....maybe desired by parents looking for the magical fix for teen rebellion but this industry is not needed at all.
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Most parents are not concerned with cigarette smoking or alcohol, they have a child in crisis, who is heading down a destructive path , who is harming themselves and their family. This isnt a sales pitch that someone tells them, it is what they are living.
Go look at any of the "warning signs" on the program websites. They describe just about every teen on the planet. Of COURSE its a sales pitch! :roll:
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Now I agree that they may gets some bad advice on possible solutions. Some of these places are not great for kids and not all kids belong in all of these places. A parent needs to get themselves well informed before choosing a solution that fits their family
"
A parent needs to take responsibility for raising their own kid. If they really are honest to god that scared, there are far better options than these places. Including doing nothing. primum non nocere
If the words 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness,
then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the HEMP it was written on.
Terence McKenna, 1946-2000
Post by: Antigen on January 18, 2006, 10:41:00 AM
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On 2006-01-11 07:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
How would fornits be if kids had THAT power over you - imagine that- you you might get a small glimpse of what it's like being locked up at WWASP, obviously you have no idea judging by your comment above.
Nonexistant. I just wouldn't be a party to anything like that. How some ever... we do have one such program for the truely kool-aid drunk. Here's their web page:
http://fornits.com/SIBS/ (http://fornits.com/SIBS/)
Come in the evening, or come in the morning; Come when you 're looked for, or come without warning.
-- Thomas O. Davis (1814-1845): The Welcome.
Post by: TheWho on January 18, 2006, 10:58:00 AM
Yeah, I do.***
Antigen -- I think I want you to take a step back and recalibrate. You really feel that anytime a child needs to be separated from from their parents for a sickness it is considered shipping them off.
You have gone from "Anti All programs" to just "antiparents". Kids get sick, we have people in our church that have sent their kids here from overseas as burn victims and they cant afford to come themselves, so as you say they have "Ship them off" I know they are loving parents because I have spoken to people who have met them and if they could be with their daughter they would have, but they would miss months of work and plane fare that amounts to 6 months pay for them.
Not everyone can solve their problem at home or be with them during treatment, I am just amazed that you take this position.
Post by: Antigen on January 18, 2006, 10:58:00 AM
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On 2006-01-18 05:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
I believe you are thinking of "manchunsian by proxy", not sure of the spelling, but I know what you mean. I dont believe that applies because the adult (with this disorder) typically wants to be part of the care and shipping a child off would defeat the purpose of that desease. So I would rule this out."
Yup! That's what the LGA seminars and local support groups are all about. Plus there's all the money and homework and all the rest. But, of course, the allegory doesn't strictly hold up. In the case of Munchausen (by proxy or not) the person is actively deceiving the professionals to make themselves or the victim appear or actually become sick. In the case of the troubled parent industry, the "professionals" (who are not actually professionals at all) fully support and even stoke the mark's delusions.
Understand this, too. There's a difference between lying and bullshitting. In order to tell a lie, you have to be aware of the truth and make a concious choice to say otherwise. Bullshitters just disregard the truth. That's what we're dealing with here.
The troubled parent industry is very like those silly chain letters you may get promising great luck or cash or good health or whatever if you follow the instructions and return the thing w/ a "donation". The difference is that that's a relatively harmless scam. It just costs a little money and makes the stoodge feel foolish (if, indeed, they ever do see through it) This scam is far more insideous. They actually mess w/ people's children and families on a profound level and on the false pretense of having some sort of expertise that they simply do not have.
There never was a good war or a bad peace.
--Benjamin Franklin, (1773)
Post by: Antigen on January 18, 2006, 11:06:00 AM
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On 2006-01-18 06:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
I agree most of these kids are getting the abuse and mindrapes at home by their friends or drug dealers, they dont need to be sent away for that, most parents are only looking to get them help and place them on a safe path
Right, I know that. Been there, done it, got the tshirt and the chronic insomnea. People become vulnerable when they're scared. There's no greater love than that of a parent for their child and, likewise, no more gripping fear than that of a parent who believes their child is in danger. That kind of fear makes for some pretty stupid decisions. That's why we have bodies of tradition and convention backed by reems and volumes of law regarding the very sensitive, high risk relationship that exists between a therapist and a patient.
It's not perfect, but it's better than nothing.
The troubled parent industry scoffs at that. Why, if you think you've been slammed, you've been slammed. Never mind that it's nothing compared to what they do to kids for a living. If you lack apropriate confidence in your kid or harbour irrational fears about the big bad world we've made for them, why then that kid surely is in dire need of the most outrageous, extreme newage treatment on the market today. Even if you have no money to speak of, they can still find a place for you in the organization. You can become a recruiter or a facilitator. And they'll still be almost like a family to you even when the kid you sought to reprogram no longer talks to you or has come to some bad end. What a deal, eh?
Darlin, it's a scam. RUN!
With soap, baptism is a good thing.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
Post by: TheWho on January 18, 2006, 11:09:00 AM
Most parents, I would suspect, dont desire to send their kids away and pay all that expense. Its not a desire, it is a need. I agree with you that most kids dont need to be there.
****Go look at any of the "warning signs" on the program websites. They describe just about every teen on the planet. Of COURSE its a sales pitch!
****
But all parents are not looking at web sites to send their kids away. How amny people really look at them? By the time a parent starts to research this they already have a problem? I have to believe that a very small number of parents are cruising the web, come across a programs web site and say "Hey my kid acts out a little, maybe we should spend $7,000 a month and pull him out of prep school and send him to this unaccredited place". I just find it hard to believe but I am sure there are some so I wont argue that point.
Once you are looking for solutions to a known problem then yes, each web site will be selling their unique program strengths.
*** A parent needs to take responsibility for raising their own kid. If they really are honest to god that scared, there are far better options than these places. Including doing nothing. primum non nocere ****
I have to disagree, turning your back and ignoring a problem will not make it go away, this would be irresponible parenting. (you dont sound like you have kids)
Post by: TheWho on January 18, 2006, 11:20:00 AM
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On 2006-01-18 08:06:00, Antigen wrote:I could agree with all you say if I assume there is no problem and that it exists in the head of the parent only. I also believe there are cases where this is true. But I am talking about situations where the family is truly in crisis and the child needs help. Whether it is the "Troubled parent" or "Troubled teen industry" There is help that is needed.
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On 2006-01-18 06:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
I agree most of these kids are getting the abuse and mindrapes at home by their friends or drug dealers, they dont need to be sent away for that, most parents are only looking to get them help and place them on a safe path
Right, I know that. Been there, done it, got the tshirt and the chronic insomnea. People become vulnerable when they're scared. There's no greater love than that of a parent for their child and, likewise, no more gripping fear than that of a parent who believes their child is in danger. That kind of fear makes for some pretty stupid decisions. That's why we have bodies of tradition and convention backed by reems and volumes of law regarding the very sensitive, high risk relationship that exists between a therapist and a patient.
It's not perfect, but it's better than nothing.
The troubled parent industry scoffs at that. Why, if you think you've been slammed, you've been slammed. Never mind that it's nothing compared to what they do to kids for a living. If you lack apropriate confidence in your kid or harbour irrational fears about the big bad world we've made for them, why then that kid surely is in dire need of the most outrageous, extreme newage treatment on the market today. Even if you have no money to speak of, they can still find a place for you in the organization. You can become a recruiter or a facilitator. And they'll still be almost like a family to you even when the kid you sought to reprogram no longer talks to you or has come to some bad end. What a deal, eh?
Darlin, it's a scam. RUN!With soap, baptism is a good thing.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
"
If the problem is in the head of the parent then that needs to be addressed. If the problem is in the head of the teen then that needs to be addressed or both. But the problem needs to be identified and solved so that families can be healed and move towards a more healthy existance.
Post by: WWFSMD on January 18, 2006, 11:26:00 AM
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On 2006-01-18 08:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
Most parents, I would suspect, dont desire to send their kids away and pay all that expense. Its not a desire, it is a need. I agree with you that most kids dont need to be there.
Then why the hell are they there? That would suggest that the programs take in kids that don't need their "help". Why would they do that? Hmmmm, let's rack our brain trying to figure that one out.
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But all parents are not looking at web sites to send their kids away. How amny people really look at them? By the time a parent starts to research this they already have a problem? I have to believe that a very small number of parents are cruising the web, come across a programs web site and say "Hey my kid acts out a little, maybe we should spend $7,000 a month and pull him out of prep school and send him to this unaccredited place". I just find it hard to believe but I am sure there are some so I wont argue that point.
Once you are looking for solutions to a known problem then yes, each web site will be selling their unique program strengths.
The attitude towards teens today makes it so easy to prey on vulnerable, scared parents. Its not just the websites, its places like DFAF, programs like DARE, the hype and propoganda about drugs in the first place.
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I have to disagree, turning your back and ignoring a problem will not make it go away, this would be irresponible parenting. (you dont sound like you have kids)"
I didn't say ignore the problem. What I'm saying is view and approach it realistically. I do have kids. If you've read much of anything I've written in these forums you'd find that I've posted about the nightmarish couple of years I had with one of mine (they're 20 & 18 now). I understand all too well the sleepless nights, the waiting for 'the phone call', the rage in the house. I watched this sweet kid turn into a smart-mouthed, hard partying, wreckless soul. She went to live with dad for a bit adn he tried to clamp down on her, thinking if he could just get a little more control over her things would change. He sent her to a bootcamp for a day and then held it over her head for about 6 months after that. Tried to force her to AA/NA meetings. The more he tried to force change on her, the harder she resisted. She came back home to live with me after being threatened with being sent off. We still had some rough times but I set realistic expectations for her. I didn't freak out and panic at every poor decision. I gave her room enough to figure out her place in the world. It took a while but the more she ran headlong into the brick wall of natural consequences, the more she learned. The hardest thing in the world for me to do was to stand back and let her fall. Most[/b] kids survive teenhood relatively intact despite scaring the crap out of their parents.
Ministers say that they teach charity. That is natural. They live on hand-outs. All beggars teach that others should give.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
Post by: TheWho on January 18, 2006, 11:41:00 AM
***
No you didnt read what I said. They are there because of need not desire. Its not a desire on the parents part.
**** Most kids survive teenhood relatively intact despite scaring the crap out of their parents. ***
This is very evident and the teen years for parents can be a horror. Some parents overreact and send their kids away because they got a "B" in english, and there will always be people like that and there are always people to take your money and promise to solve your problems. But after you let them fall again and again you figure it has to stop. Falling out of the first or second story window might be okay, but each time you may move up a story and falling out of the sixth and seventh story window, I think its time to pull out the safety net.
Most kids survive on their own and do well and mature in their own time, others do not, and without help dont make it.
Post by: WWFSMD on January 18, 2006, 11:50:00 AM
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On 2006-01-18 08:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
They are there because of need not desire. Its not a desire on the parents part.
I disagree.
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This is very evident and the teen years for parents can be a horror. Some parents overreact and send their kids away because they got a "B" in english, and there will always be people like that and there are always people to take your money and promise to solve your problems. But after you let them fall again and again you figure it has to stop. Falling out of the first or second story window might be okay, but each time you may move up a story and falling out of the sixth and seventh story window, I think its time to pull out the safety net.
Most kids survive on their own and do well and mature in their own time, others do not, and without help dont make it."
You're talking about an extremely small percentage of kids. Those that truly DO need help won't find it in these places.
Any Irishman who doubts the reality of selective enforcement ought to take just a moment to comtemplate the etymology of the term "paddy waggon".
--Antigen
Post by: Antigen on January 18, 2006, 12:13:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-18 07:58:00, Anonymous wrote:
Antigen -- I think I want you to take a step back and recalibrate. You really feel that anytime a child needs to be separated from from their parents for a sickness it is considered shipping them off.
No, you're mixing metaphores. I think anytime a parent ships their kid off for the purpose of gaining inapropriate control of them, not for the purpose of treating an objectively provable medical condition, it's very, very similar to the way some people (and I use that term loosely, cuz I'm fond of dogs) will have their dogs denutted for the purpose of breaking their will.
Quote
You have gone from "Anti All programs" to just "antiparents".
I am a parent. I've had sick kids. One of my kids was so sick for some time that I actually had a few conversations w/ real medical professionals on the topic of when enough is enough and the kindest, most responsible and compassionate thing to do is just give lots of morphene and ice cream. This was after this same kid spent a couple of years seemingly dedicated to my premature aging by way of her wreckless choices.
I know the difference. Do you?
Like I say, been there. Don't believe what they say about us over on Struggling Turkeys. We're not really all just a bunch of disaffected punks.
Quote
Not everyone can solve their problem at home or be with them during treatment, I am just amazed that you take this position."
Not every problem can be solved. Not every emotional upset is based on objective fact. Surely, you've made the acquaintance before of overbearing, overprotective, overly worried parents. Surely, if you live in the same world I do, you've seen people like this and felt some sympathy for the kid who's forced to work at calming their neurotic parents irrational fears like it's a full time job. Most of these kids have just had about all the help they can stand by the time some bullshitter finds their parents frantic and unconsolable and sells them a handful of magic beans. Sometimes the best thing you can do for your troubled loved one is to quit troubling them, quit disabling them, quit trying to fix them and consider the possability that they're just as competent and resillient as you ever were (maybe more) and what they need most is a break from all of your "help".
If you look over Lon's site w/ a critical eye, you'll see that the parents who have not yet been banned are giving just exactly this advice to other parents who's results are not quite up to expectation.
"Letting go" is a constant theme over there. But, because it's such a cultish little world they live in, it can't be moderate or reasonable or adapted to the individuals involved, it's got to be clear cut, black and white. If the kid's not following all of the "agreements" that have been made for them as a condition of release, you can't just accept that your kid is not going to behave exactly as you thought you wanted. No! You have to kick them out, change the locks, confiscate their posessions, ban them from contact w/ younger brothers and sisters. If you love your kid, you must (according to the struggling turkeys) execute the "Exit Plan" and be firm about it.
And don't have any truck with anybody, even family, who does not support this extreme line of action. If you disagree, you'd better keep it to yourself or you'll be stuck w/ us misanthropic infidels over here on Fornits because your views will not be tolerated among the true believers.
At the risk of being too longwinded and boring you, I'd like to go a step further w/ the medical allegory. How about the first and most important tenet of the Hypocratic Oath; First, do no harm? As I said, I've had more experience w/ my daughter and the medical field than I ever would wish on anybody. Of course, there are people in the medical field who are either power trippers or just burned out but stuck (either economically or out of a sense of responsibility). And there are those who are just jaded, don't care and don't want to be bothered w/ the minutea of every little detail of patient care. After awhile, you learn to tolerate them and concentrate on those for whom the practice of medicine is a real calling.
Those are the folks I want to tell you about. When I asked my daughter's doctors, nurses and other caregivers questions about the proceedures and medications they were giving her or proposed to give her, they didn't shout me down. Instead, they handed me their institutional guide book and her chart and made themselves available to help me understand some of the more difficult language. Or they'd spell out some of the terms so that I could go look them up. There was absolutely no attempt made to prevent me from talking w/ other parents, even very unhappy ones. When I questioned their methods or the relative risk/benefit of any particular course of action, I either got a satisfactory explanation about why the procedure was necessary or expected to be worth the risk and discomfort or I got a change of plans.
And here we're talking about an objectively factual set of conditions which, not just maybe, but absolutely would have killed her in very short order w/o treatment or w/o just about exactly the correct treatment. And yet these folks, who actually earned their degrees, certifications, licenses and positions and have dedicate their lives to ongoing education were continually open to the possability that they might be wrong and that, ultimately, it was up to their young patients to care for themselves.
Compare that to the treatment you've received by these alleged "experts" in taming the wild, lurching teenager creature.
It just does not compare.
All contemporary religions and churches, all and every kind of religious organization, Marxism has always viewed as organs of bourgeois reaction, serving as a defense of exploitation and the doping of the working-classes.
--Nikolai Lenin, Russian revolutionary
Post by: TheWho on January 18, 2006, 12:14:00 PM
Even if only one child is saved by that one program which is a good match for his or her problem, it is worth all the money they are charging.
If they document the success of this one child they may be able, in time, to apply it to others.
Post by: WWFSMD on January 18, 2006, 12:19:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-18 09:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
Even if only one child is saved by that one program which is a good match for his or her problem, it is worth all the money they are charging.
If they document the success of this one child they may be able, in time, to apply it to others. "
Yeah, never mind the hundreds or thousands who've been severely damaged or even destroyed by these places. Look!!!! They helped ONE kid so it MUST be good and noble!
WAKE UP! :roll:
I wasn't raised Catholic, but I used to go to Mass with my friends, and I viewed the whole business as a lot of very enthralling hocus-pocus. There's a guy hanging upon the wall in the church, nailed to a cross and dripping blood, and everybody's blaming themselves for that man's torment, but I said to myself, 'Forget it. I had no hand in that evil. I have no original sin. Theres no blood of any sacred martyr an my hands. I pass on all of this.'
--Billy Joel, American musician
Post by: TheWho on January 18, 2006, 12:37:00 PM
WAKE UP!****
Thats the problem with only being able to see it from one point of view. It could easily be said:
"Yeah, never mind the hundreds or thousands who've been Helped or even lives saved by these places. Look!!!! They had ONE kid who died so it MUST be horrorable industry that preys on people!
Wake up !
This isnt my point of view, all I am saying is its not black and white, not many things are. If you have been burned by a place it may be hard to be objective or stand back and see others' results and successes
Post by: Anonymous on January 18, 2006, 12:50:00 PM
Quote
Even if only one child is saved by that one program which is a good match for his or her problem, it is worth all the money they are charging.
If they document the success of this one child they may be able, in time, to apply it to others.
Quote
"Yeah, never mind the hundreds or thousands who've been Helped or even lives saved by these places. Look!!!! They had ONE kid who died so it MUST be horrorable industry that preys on people!
Wake up !
This isnt my point of view, all I am saying is its not black and white, not many things are. If you have been burned by a place it may be hard to be objective or stand back and see others' results and successes
I just quoted two people who were NEVER locked up in a WWASP gulag, because if they had been - they would bite their tongues immediately. Absolutely unbelievable the amount of arm-chair program supporters here... unbelievable. Why do find it necessary to discount the ONGOING abuse at WWASP? What do you gain? You are defending a notoriously abusive program the likes of which this country has never seen. This is a worldwide insitutionalized child abuse ring and here you people, with no experience think it's just dandy. I assume you are both agnostics or atheists because those statements are pure evil. :sad:
Post by: TheWho on January 18, 2006, 01:00:00 PM
I am speaking about (and my points were towards)programs in general, not any specific ones. There have been deaths in other programs as well, not just WWASPs
Post by: Antigen on January 18, 2006, 02:15:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-18 08:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
No you didnt read what I said. They are there because of need not desire. Its not a desire on the parents part.
Some people send their kids off because they're convinced that all drug use = abuse = an intractible, mortal, progressive disease that must be treated poste haste w/ toughlove stepcraft, by force if necessary.
Then, once the kid's gone and they riffle through what he thought was his private stuff, they find "evidence" in the form of violent or otherwise upsetting pictures or words. "See there? He was planning to violently kill the stepmonster (ehr, I mean, my darling, nurturing, blameless new wife) and he even drew a diagram!!!
How do you determine what the kid needs? Who gets to speak on the issue? If it's a toughlove Synanon style program (as the vast majority of programs in the troubled parent industry seem to be) then the kid has no sayso and neither do family and friends nor professionals nor cops or anyone else who disagrees or even questions the Program. "Trust the process, just trust the process!" They'll continue to alternately stroke and swat you depending on how closely you tow their line. You're a good, brave and loving parent for exactly as long as you "trust the process."
The trouble here is that there is no objective input into this very important decision. The parents are, as you note, quite distraught and not in any shape to enter into important agreements, the edcons and the program have their financial and ego incentives and the other parents are in the same boat you are, just a good many bends down the river already.
Where's the objective assessment? Where's the evidence that the is the problem to begin with or that this particular form of treatment is likely to be helpful?
Don't you find it really disturbing that they continue to point to those thank you letters which they assign the parents to write as part of their seminars as evidence of an army of happy parents? Don't they have anything better?
A slipping gear could let your M203 grenade launcher fire when you least expect it. That would make you quite unpopular in what's left of your unit.
-- In the August 1993 issue, page 9, of PS magazine, the Army's magazine of preventive maintenance
Post by: Antigen on January 18, 2006, 02:26:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-18 09:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
If they document the success of this one child they may be able, in time, to apply it to others. "
Yup, and you might ask yourself why, after over 30 years since NIDA and other public and private entities started kicking down big bags of bucks to this industry they haven't done that. Or why, after NIMH released their study last October, the industry isn't papering every town w/ copies, citations and references.
Of course, you'll lose your good standing within the Toughlove hategroup if you ask those sort of questions. But your kid might well apreciate it, even if it seems too late now. It's never too late to apologize, ya know.
Jails and prisons are the complement of schools; so many less as you have of the latter, so many more you must have of the former
--Horace Mann
Post by: TheWho on January 18, 2006, 02:41:00 PM
I agree 100%, there are people like that.
***The trouble here is that there is no objective input into this very important decision. The parents are, as you note, quite distraught and not in any shape to enter into important agreements, the edcons and the program have their financial and ego incentives and the other parents are in the same boat you are, just a good many bends down the river already. ****
Thats why a parent may not want to make a rash or wrong decision and may opt for a therapist, if their family isnt already seeing one, to get a perfessional perspective.
*** Where's the objective assessment? Where's the evidence that the is the problem to begin with or that this particular form of treatment is likely to be helpful? ***
I dont know, but if there isnt any, each of us gets to choose a position based on personal knowledge or people we know or look to professionals to guide us. If there is no evidence either? I dont know
Post by: TheWho on January 18, 2006, 02:47:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-18 11:26:00, Antigen wrote:But in the same sense, after 30 years the industry is still growing. Maybe improving, I havent followed it that long.
"Quote
On 2006-01-18 09:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
If they document the success of this one child they may be able, in time, to apply it to others. "
Yup, and you might ask yourself why, after over 30 years since NIDA and other public and private entities started kicking down big bags of bucks to this industry they haven't done that. Or why, after NIMH released their study last October, the industry isn't papering every town w/ copies, citations and references.
Of course, you'll lose your good standing within the Toughlove hategroup if you ask those sort of questions. But your kid might well apreciate it, even if it seems too late now. It's never too late to apologize, ya know.Jails and prisons are the complement of schools; so many less as you have of the latter, so many more you must have of the former
--Horace Mann
"
Most of the major problems must be overblown because the industry, for the most part, is still unregulated.
I would suspect that in a general sense the kids are doing better going to programs than if released to their own selves. This is not my opinion, but may answer the questions of why the industry continues to thrive and run unregulated
Post by: Anonymous on January 18, 2006, 03:01:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-18 11:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
But in the same sense, after 30 years the industry is still growing. Maybe improving, I havent followed it that long.
:roll: Read this: http://www.nmha.org/children/justjuv/bootcamp.cfm (http://www.nmha.org/children/justjuv/bootcamp.cfm)
Post by: TheWho on January 18, 2006, 03:29:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-18 12:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-18 11:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
But in the same sense, after 30 years the industry is still growing. Maybe improving, I havent followed it that long.
:roll: Read this: http://www.nmha.org/children/justjuv/bootcamp.cfm (http://www.nmha.org/children/justjuv/bootcamp.cfm)"
I guess I could buy some of that as it relates to Boot camps or wilderness programs. I sort of lean more towards TBS's. Short term boot camps, beat them up straighten them out approach will eventually fade out if it isnt followed by something more therapeutic to help people transition back into society.
**** most youth can be managed in their communities while they receive a full range of rehabilitative services, including mental health and substance abuse treatment. ****
This article was written by mental health professionals so I would expect them to find boot camps to be harsh, I agree with them, but it may be a little biased.
Post by: Anonymous on January 18, 2006, 09:33:00 PM
Quote
A parent needs to take responsibility for raising their own kid. If they really are honest to god that scared, there are far better options than these places. Including doing nothing. primum non nocere ****
If you send your kid to a program who has a drug problem, and you get back a person who still has a drug problem and is now also dealing with abuse/trauma issues, that is worse than just having a drug problem. I agree, "doing nothing" is probably better than calling WWASP. If you're on this site, you know the deal, and you're sadistic if you actually sleep at night knowing your kid is at a WWASP program.
Post by: TheWho on January 18, 2006, 10:24:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-18 18:33:00, Anonymous wrote:Yes but there are other options/programs other than WWASP.
"Quote
A parent needs to take responsibility for raising their own kid. If they really are honest to god that scared, there are far better options than these places. Including doing nothing. primum non nocere ****
If you send your kid to a program who has a drug problem, and you get back a person who still has a drug problem and is now also dealing with abuse/trauma issues, that is worse than just having a drug problem. I agree, "doing nothing" is probably better than calling WWASP. If you're on this site, you know the deal, and you're sadistic if you actually sleep at night knowing your kid is at a WWASP program."
Post by: Anonymous on January 18, 2006, 10:36:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-18 09:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
Even if only one child is saved by that one program which is a good match for his or her problem, it is worth all the money they are charging.
If they document the success of this one child they may be able, in time, to apply it to others.Quote
"Yeah, never mind the hundreds or thousands who've been Helped or even lives saved by these places. Look!!!! They had ONE kid who died so it MUST be horrorable industry that preys on people!
Wake up !
This isnt my point of view, all I am saying is its not black and white, not many things are. If you have been burned by a place it may be hard to be objective or stand back and see others' results and successes
I just quoted two people who were NEVER locked up in a WWASP gulag, because if they had been - they would bite their tongues immediately. Absolutely unbelievable the amount of arm-chair program supporters here... unbelievable. Why do find it necessary to discount the ONGOING abuse at WWASP? What do you gain? You are defending a notoriously abusive program the likes of which this country has never seen. This is a worldwide insitutionalized child abuse ring and here you people, with no experience think it's just dandy. I assume you are both agnostics or atheists because those statements are pure evil. :sad: "
Drama-rama (Honestly, I can almost hear the organ music rising to a crescendo . . . "the likes of which this country has never seen!"), and you're a bigot besides. Do you really assume anyone who is atheist or agnostic is evil? That's ridiculous, and so is your claim about worldwide child abuse rings.
Post by: Anonymous on January 18, 2006, 10:50:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 18, 2006, 10:51:00 PM
Quote
Even if only one child is saved by that one program which is a good match for his or her problem, it is worth all the money they are charging.
If they document the success of this one child they may be able, in time, to apply it to others.
One of the stupidest things I've read here.
Post by: Anonymous on January 18, 2006, 10:55:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 18, 2006, 10:57:00 PM
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on January 18, 2006, 11:08:00 PM
Do I wear those scars still..........yes. Would you like me to take a picture and submit it to prove it to you?
They are all white now, but I am sure people have seen them. Nobody has ever said a comment to me, atleast to my face thank god!
Post by: Antigen on January 18, 2006, 11:40:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-18 11:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
I dont know, but if there isnt any, each of us gets to choose a position based on personal knowledge or people we know or look to professionals to guide us. If there is no evidence either? I dont know
"
Closing your eyes makes it go away?
Being a street cop, witnessing the tragedy firsthand, I've become
convinced that drug prohibition -- not drugs themselves -- are driving the HIV epidemic and the systemic crime that has swamped our criminal justice systems.
--Vancouver Police Const. Gil Puder
Post by: Antigen on January 18, 2006, 11:43:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-18 11:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
I would suspect that in a general sense the kids are doing better going to programs than if released to their own selves. This is not my opinion, but may answer the questions of why the industry continues to thrive and run unregulated"
Yes, it is a growth industry. So are porn, gambling, fast food, quack diet and health products, prisons and war. That doesn't make any of them any good.
In any civilized society, it is every citizen's responsibility to obey just laws. But at the same time, it is every citizen's responsibility to disobey unjust laws.
--Martin Luther King
Post by: p on January 19, 2006, 09:04:00 AM
Post by: TheWho on January 19, 2006, 12:43:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-18 19:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
" ::noway:: ::noway:: ::noway:: The ridicule and minimization of death and abuse keeps going and going in this thread, that is unfortunate. I just can't rap my mind around what type of person goes on a child abuse survivor forum and pokes fun at people. It's just mind-boggling sick and weird. ::puke:: "
I looked through the last 5-6 pages and did not see any ridicule of people dieing.
Post by: TheWho on January 19, 2006, 12:50:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-18 20:40:00, Antigen wrote:Antigen - Thats my point "Closing our eyes to what?"
"Quote
On 2006-01-18 11:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
I dont know, but if there isnt any, each of us gets to choose a position based on personal knowledge or people we know or look to professionals to guide us. If there is no evidence either? I dont know
"
Closing your eyes makes it go away?Being a street cop, witnessing the tragedy firsthand, I've become
convinced that drug prohibition -- not drugs themselves -- are driving the HIV epidemic and the systemic crime that has swamped our criminal justice systems.
--Vancouver Police Const. Gil Puder
"
All the success that some programs bring to families?
OR
All the pain that is brought on by some programs?
I have met many people who the programs have helped and maybe I am guilty of closing my eyes to the pain it has brought to others at times.
But it is clear that the opposite is true, also, that people who experienced pain from the programs have a difficult time seeing the benefits brought to others.
Post by: Anonymous on January 29, 2006, 08:50:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 29, 2006, 09:43:00 PM
The astonishing statistics cited by WWASP are actually a 97% PARENT satisfaction rate, meaning that 97% of parents don't regret forking over thousands to WWASP to incarcerate their kids. The kids were never even asked about their opinions. We all know how WWASP tricks parents, starting with enrollment, when they receive the bible of lies- the Parent Handbook.
Post by: Anonymous on January 29, 2006, 10:21:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-29 17:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It's interesting that you put Cory Landre on the list. His parents are strong supporters of the WWASP programs.. Have you ever heard of the Landre Foundation, they are at all the parents seminars"
Every kid on the list had parents who supported the program they were in, obviously, otherwise they would have pulled their kid.
Post by: Antigen on January 30, 2006, 07:14:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-29 17:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It's interesting that you put Cory Landre on the list. His parents are strong supporters of the WWASP programs.. Have you ever heard of the Landre Foundation, they are at all the parents seminars"
I don't think it's particularly surprising that he's on the list. It's a list of, what? Dead Program kids. He's one.
I was rather surprised when I read his mother's statements to the press and when they set up that foundation to do the same damned thing to other kids.
I've run accross plenty of parents over the years who are as die hard as you are for the Program, even though their grown kids never have fared very well at life and don't phone home much. But I thought that, surely, when the kid actually dies, surely they'd snap out of it, right? Nopw; behold the destructive power of LGA.
That's what it's all about, turning parents solidly against their own children. Fine line of work you've chosen for yourself. :roll:
May your days be joyfully challenging and your words artfully true
-- Ginger Warbis SMA, `00
Post by: Antigen on January 30, 2006, 07:39:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-19 09:50:00, TheWho wrote:
I have met many people who the programs have helped and maybe I am guilty of closing my eyes to the pain it has brought to others at times.
But it is clear that the opposite is true, also, that people who experienced pain from the programs have a difficult time seeing the benefits brought to others.
Well, you're looking at this from the perspective of a marketer. You've probably met plenty of people who say the Program has helped them. For every one, I can find you at least one who believes just as fervently that the Enquirer's blue dot has helped them or the fortune teller they call w/ their credit card number or, in days gone by, Carter's Little Liver Pills or other patent medicines.
As it turns out, they were all quite wrong. When you look into the clinical studies; the ones that track objective data, not subjective, you see a very different story emerge. The Dept of Justice lists toughlove style treatment under "what doesn't work".
Same for LGAT (your much vaunted seminars). http://www.rickross.com/reference/apolo ... ist23.html (http://www.rickross.com/reference/apologist/apologist23.html) Just like fine Bolivian blow, they make you feel just fucking great!, but they're not really good for you at all.
The body of
Benjamin Franklin, printer,
(Like the cover of an old book,
Its contents worn out,
And scripts of it's lettering and gilding)
Lies Here, food for worms!
Yet the work itself shall not be lost,
For it will, as he believed, appear once more
In a new
And more beautiful edition,
Corrected and amended
By it's Author!
Epitaph for himself.
--Benjamin Franklin 1706-1790
Post by: Anonymous on February 09, 2006, 12:27:00 AM
Mary was found dead in her car and a note was found in her car. And it said to post her death on myspace. You will be missed Mary u didnt have to give up. You were loved by many and will always be.
These numbers are undeniable. One person on Myspace said it's the third recent suicide from their old group at SCL alone.
Post by: Anonymous on February 09, 2006, 12:29:00 AM
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on February 09, 2006, 12:42:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on February 09, 2006, 01:00:00 AM
My heart goes to the families that have lost loved ones , I only wish they could have seen how they were bieng brain washed by greedy corporate robots. :???:
Post by: Anonymous on February 09, 2006, 12:27:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-08 22:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"This is America where animals are more protected than children, what in the hell is going on ? There are Senators as we speak finally preparing action. Lets bloody hope so it is way overdue.
My heart goes to the families that have lost loved ones , I only wish they could have seen how they were bieng brain washed by greedy corporate robots. :???:
"
She didn't commit suicide. It was a hoax.
Post by: Anonymous on February 09, 2006, 12:32:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-09 09:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-02-08 22:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"This is America where animals are more protected than children, what in the hell is going on ? There are Senators as we speak finally preparing action. Lets bloody hope so it is way overdue.
My heart goes to the families that have lost loved ones , I only wish they could have seen how they were bieng brain washed by greedy corporate robots. :???:
"
She didn't commit suicide. It was a hoax."
Are you sure? The folks on Myspace seem to be assuming that is the case because the post was made on her login but a relative could have made that post from her computer with cookies enabled.
Post by: Anonymous on February 09, 2006, 12:34:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on February 09, 2006, 02:48:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-09 09:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-02-09 09:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-02-08 22:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"This is America where animals are more protected than children, what in the hell is going on ? There are Senators as we speak finally preparing action. Lets bloody hope so it is way overdue.
My heart goes to the families that have lost loved ones , I only wish they could have seen how they were bieng brain washed by greedy corporate robots. :???:
"
She didn't commit suicide. It was a hoax."
Are you sure? The folks on Myspace seem to be assuming that is the case because the post was made on her login but a relative could have made that post from her computer with cookies enabled."
Go to myspace and ask Mary.
Post by: Anonymous on February 09, 2006, 02:50:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-09 09:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-02-09 09:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-02-08 22:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"This is America where animals are more protected than children, what in the hell is going on ? There are Senators as we speak finally preparing action. Lets bloody hope so it is way overdue.
My heart goes to the families that have lost loved ones , I only wish they could have seen how they were bieng brain washed by greedy corporate robots. :???:
"
She didn't commit suicide. It was a hoax."
Are you sure? The folks on Myspace seem to be assuming that is the case because the post was made on her login but a relative could have made that post from her computer with cookies enabled."
Yes it was a hoax. Mary logged on and apologized for it. She claims she didn't make the post, but who knows since she did admit to attempting suicide a few days prior to the posting but was stopped by some friends.
Post by: Anonymous on February 10, 2006, 02:42:00 PM
Found at http://dragondances.livejournal.com/28419.html (http://dragondances.livejournal.com/28419.html)
Jenn
So, apparently our dearest dictator somehow got access to a computer. She updated deviantart (via comments), and I quote:
"spring creek lodge acadamy
pure hell
can't write much. am not allowed to be here at all.
i'll be out sometime next summer hopefully
untill then, i am alive. tell everyone."
Then the next comment:
"oh, the address is 1342 blueslide rd
thompson falls mt 59785,
but it won't help you much *rolls eyes*"
Gah, Jenn! I do miss you...
---
Ah.. such a wonderful place. :roll:
Post by: Anonymous on February 15, 2006, 03:17:00 PM
True investigation and journalism would have easily found that out! Stop doing sensationalism. That's what discredits your attempts and highlights your anger. Get over it!
Post by: Anonymous on February 15, 2006, 03:44:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-09 11:30:00, TheWho wrote:
"Quotethe suicide of Cory Murphy is known to be about WWASP. He was about to be sent back after being at WWASP. So, that leaves you with ONE questionable name on the list.
But caused by WWASP? We dont knowQuoteSo, please, explain to all of us again- why should we ignore a list of 82 DEAD children because you have a problem with how two of them got on the list? Get real, please!
I think I said "This is why the list of kids who died (that someone keeps posting) has no meaning because the only qualifications to make the list is dieing after attending a program and we are all going to die whether we attended or not.
I believe it references the list of kids not the kids themselves (big difference). If you add just one name that doesnt belong their it throws into question the entire list and renders it meaningless (or you have to research each name for accuracy which most people dont want to do).QuoteHow can you say 'chances were it wasn't WWASP', while also arguing the point none of us know?
I think I said "The testimonial was a snap shot in time of how he and his family were doing and it seems after SCL he was doing very well, probably much better than before he went in based on the wording. So chances are it wasnt SCL but another stimuli which caused this.
If you have 10 possibilities and I just quess at one I have a 10% chance of being right. So If I choose SCL as being the cause there is a 90% probability I am wrong, just basic statistics from raw data, it could just as well be a fight with his girlfriend or an onset of chemical imbalance of some sort.
I just dont see how you can tie the cause of everyones death back to one event in their lives. The kids died and that is sad but the list is bogus because it has no requirements or conditions in order to be added only the feeling of one person, unless someone does this each name will have to be researched by everyone who reads it which goes against the reason for the list to begin with, you should creat a list with a title and meaning i.e.
"Kids who died while in the care of Programs"
"Kids who died after attending programs by suicide"
"Kids who died by suicide who never attended a program"
or combine them all and deliniate by asterisks etc.
Then be clear on who can get added and who cant. This way the list will have some meaning and comparisons can be made.
But just posting a kids picture because he attended a program and died isnt right."
So, it was "TheWHO" who kept trolling this thread... good to know.
Post by: Anonymous on February 15, 2006, 03:45:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on February 15, 2006, 03:45:00 PM
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On 2006-02-15 12:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Christopher Landre did not die at a program either. Get your facts right!
True investigation and journalism would have easily found that out! Stop doing sensationalism. That's what discredits your attempts and highlights your anger. Get over it!
"
Did you mean to email this to an editor of a news publication, who are you addressing exactly?
The fact is, the kid you are referring to was home from Paradise Cove, knew he was being sent back and chose to blow his brains out instead of going back.
Everybody knows Paradise Cove was an abusive program. 48 Hours and Dateline each did a segment on Paradise Cove.
Why do you support programs so traumatizing and abusive, kids would rather die than attend them?
Too bad his parents did not seek real treatment from a psychiatric facility. He might still be alive today.
Post by: Anonymous on March 25, 2006, 03:06:00 AM
Post by: Antigen on March 25, 2006, 10:36:00 AM
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On 2006-02-15 12:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
So, it was "TheWHO" who kept trolling this thread... good to know."
Yup! Sort of gives lie to the notion that ASR, SUWS and Carlbrook are any different that WWASP, doesn't it?
God did not reward men for being honest, generous and brave, but for the act of faith. Without faith, all the so-called virtues were sins. and the men who practiced these virtues, without faith, deserved to suffer eternal pain.
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Post by: Anonymous on March 29, 2006, 11:56:00 AM
I was a student at Spring Creek Lodge Acadamy in Thompson Falls, MT. Though I did learn many things from being there, the methods that are used in these programs, i believe, can be quite traumatizing. the psycological manipulation and emotional abuse are pretty rough at times. Staff are unneccessarily rude and judgemental at times; and the humility and shock of the entire experience can put you into a serious, SERIOUS depression. your judgement isn't quite clear. Did you know that parents hire so-called "escorts" which are nothing more than paid kidnappers to pick up their children from anywhere and haul them to an undisclosed location of the parents choice against the childs will? the whole experiece is just wrong. i wouldn't wish it on my child or anyone elses."
If you want your story heard, you can go to http://www.caica.org (http://www.caica.org) and go to their opinions/story section. And yes, it is like a kidnapping. No doubt about that. The trauma kids suffer from the experience is unbelieveable!
Post by: kcadams1980 on March 29, 2006, 05:31:00 PM
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On 2005-12-20 17:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Murder? Consider the sheer numbers of students and the two on campus deaths (suicides) in all the years they've been around. Focus on those two and you forget about all the lives that have been regained. :wink: "
You don't have to physically die to be dead inside... Consider the "sheer numbers" of former WWASP kids with chronic PTSD and/or severe depression as a result... But wait, you CAN'T do that, because WWASP doesn't solicit independent researchers for program evaluations, nor do they track treatment outcomes.
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 29, 2006, 05:37:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on March 31, 2006, 06:32:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on April 08, 2006, 01:28:00 AM