Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => CEDU / Brown Schools and derivatives / clones => Topic started by: Anonymous on December 16, 2005, 07:58:00 PM
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Just wondering if anyone else out there has side effects, after effects and symptoms of the program.
Examples:
I found that I couldn't have fun "going out" anymore no matter what I did, I started to apologize for everything with excessive amounts of guilt for no reasons, I was worried about what everyone thought - I felt I had to be perfect, I didn't trust people young or old, I couldn't be in crowds - at parties we would all stand around in a circle just talking and hanging out and I would be really really uncomfortable to the point of wanting to flee (just like raps), I was afraid that people would attack me for no reason.
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I also have had some serious side effects from my Cedu experience. I am afraid to make anyone mad at me as I do not want to be yelled at again When I get pulled aside I get to sick to my stomach because I think that I am going to get yelled at
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I can think of a few side affects that you don't even realize until years after the program. One is that you lose your sense of boundaries. You overshare at inappropriate times or you distance yourself when you shouldn't because you are used to people exploiting and distorting your feelings, disregarding your thoughts and feelings in favor of program thinking. Also, you may have picked up some of the useless and abominable ways of interacting. The real world ain't gonna respond to your little rap tactics too favorably. Basically, I think it fucks with your interrelating skills and your ability to set boundaries, because NO ONE respected any boundaries.
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one of the most distinguishing features that I had thought was just "personality quirks" I later found to be related to traumatic encounters. I jump when someone comes into my periphery and have other hyper sensative awareness of my immediate surrounding and environment. I always make a noise on the threshold of a door because I was encouraged to do such things in my modification when I was a youngster. In situations involving large groups of people I can identify whose attention I have instinctively. If I'm correct or not doesn't matter, I will approach the person. I have never been used to the "games" people play. I'm direct and since leaving my place so many years ago and while there I've had few friends though I've always been "popular". I've had more fistfights and romantic interludes than Prince has had names. But at other times I am reclusive and depressed and during these times I know that the world is fucking with me and I have no control and I think about the feeling I had at that place and how depression was dealt with...I become estranged from anyone and can't leave the house. I think about suicide. I come to this site and see and remember about my time there so long ago, and for so long I've tried to make it work for me, use my "tools". IT helps little, as I've chosen to feel what I feel. It can't be chemical. All the doctors and especially my shrink are wrong, don't they know that everything I need is inside of me. I'm supposed to feel good when I feel bad. There must be a reward for this trouble inside. This is a lot of my life that is effected by the experience I endured. I bought in fully to the idea that I was nothing and my life would go nowhere for two years. Then in six months the place that had so ruefully worn away any individual thinking and rendered me not much more than a scared, betrayed slave; changed into a shelter from the outside world. We were threatened with the realities of the street and warned that without program thinking we were destined for failure. Then they turned us loose after a dinky graduation ceremony and that was that. The only thing, ergo, I got from the program was that without it I'm lost. I hate the program because there is no program. The only thing gained was a euphoric utopian bubble that lasted for a little while, ending exactly the first time I confronted one of my friends or roomates by program standards. There was no message. There is no secret. The program did nothing but hurt. ME. The real ME. Whatever depression related problems or teenage angst I had when I went there was distracted from or distorted by lengthy group sessions in which I was told what my problems were starting on the first day by people whose names I hadn't even learned yet. "Confrontation" style therapy ripped me and my already delicate disposition towards the world and my family life, and replaced it with NOTHING but more angst and indecision. It left me with almost no social skills and a distain for manual labor.
I digress, but in the end these places fuck royally with you religiously/spiritually, pyschologically, and painfully. The emotional growth aspect is equal to rage. It fed on anger and it spawned it likewise.
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PTSD
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amen. whether you bought in or not.
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Overly critical of myself and others and not really feeling part of the world and that I don't fit in.
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wow, i went to Mission Mountain School, not CEDU, but everything you all have said fit- word for word.
Wow, it's nice to find commonalitly, albeit in the most distant of places- virtual land.
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i dont really argue with people anymore, you might think thats a good thing but its not. Im always fake now to avoid comfrontation. for a while it seemed like i forgot how to have fun in the real world. even smoking weed seemed kind of like a new thing for me. i definetely reveal to much about myself with people who cant deal with that kind of honesty. its been a little more then a year since i left cedu and im pretty adjusted back to the real world but some stuff still lingers.
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Total fear of confrontation.
Lack of confidence.
Isolation because of this.
Lack of friends, didn't want to get close to anyone.
Total anger for having to go there and experience that bullshit.
Crappy relationship with my family.
Parents still teach tough love.
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still experiencing the same things as all of you above state after almost 20 years...and it doesn't get better but worse over time...however...until finding this site I had suppressed all my memories of all the physical, emotional and psychological abuse...now I am reliving it all in my head now and realizing the impact that it had...I'm not enjoying the ride...I'm not enjoying thinking about certain "excercises" that we were forced to do in propheets under the fear of hard labor or possible fulltime if we refused to participate...over the last 2 days since i discovered fornits, bit by bit and piece by piece...more is coming back to me. I'm not looking forward to the upcoming days of reliving painful memories that were forcibly suppressed by having to sign a contract never to disclose what went on in workshops etc...not even to our parents...My father is very supportive of me right now and after seeing this site regrets ever sending me there.
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i can understand your pain. I went to cedu and i cant go to college without getting trigered by PTSD symptoms. everything trigers me. i cant forgive my parents,memories of abuse.neglict,yelling,storys of rape,beatings,solitary confinment. the list goes on.
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my cousin recently graduated from MMA & she is doing great!
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dunno anything ahout it but if it's anything like CEDU was for me...give it time. Of course, they're doing great you knucklehead.
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On 2006-02-26 18:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
"my cousin recently graduated from MMA & she is doing great!"
Maybe you should post in the MMA forum. Not saying you aren't welcome here, just saying that you would probably generate more of a discussion over there.
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I relate to many of these posts. Because of my lack of ability to adhere to social standards post-CEDU, those who get to know me look on me as a bit ?off?. In fact, people call me crazy all the time. It's supposed to be a term of endearment amongst my friends, but it bothers me that I'm viewed as abnormal for reasons beyond my control. Otherwise, I appear to live a fairly normal life on the outside (job, condo, boyfriend, hobbies, whatever), but internally I struggle with many symptoms reminiscent of PTSD, depression, anxiety, etc.
Innate or traumatized? Possibly a combination of the two, but I know one thing for sure: CEDU hurt me more than it helped.[ This Message was edited by: Angel Lux on 2006-03-02 12:18 ][ This Message was edited by: Angel Lux on 2006-03-02 12:19 ]
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i feel i cant have fun in life anymore because they brainwash me to be this cookiecutter person. with there score cards. you are constantly being checked off on your behavior every 15 minutes. you are reduced to a score card a sheet of paper that is your identaty.when your in the real world you cant function because they made you be who they wanted you to be. a boaring unhappy person. in other words. THE BEHAVIOR MOD MOLDED YOU INTO WHAT THEY WANTED YOU TO BE.
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No, the behavior mod molded YOU into what they wanted YOU to be. Speak for yourself man, they could try to mod me all they want. I'm a free spirited motherfucker. I was at CEDU for almost 3 damn years and I am livin' it up these days.
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oviously not if your on this site. anonymous is that the best you can do. cutting people down and if you are so smart why dont you tell me how you get your dick so high up your mouth.
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why am i posting anonymous because i am not the one cutting people down all day like a computer geeek
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I post anon cause I dont want people to know who I am! HAHA and cause my spelling sucks.
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On 2006-03-08 14:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"oviously not if your on this site. anonymous is that the best you can do. cutting people down and if you are so smart why dont you tell me how you get your dick so high up your mouth."
I post on this site, therefore I can't be livin' it up? Are you stupid? Maybe if I was posting at 11:30 PM on a Friday night, I suppose. But I like this site cuz it's cool to see how other people took their experiences. It's also cool to see what CEDU was like back in the day. And of course it's cool to get back in touch with old friends that fell off.
I don't know if you ever went to college, but some of these classes are boring as fuck! Makes it hard NOT to break out the laptop and jump on fornits for a bit. I know, I know, you'd rather be jerkin' off to some gay porn. It's cool, I won't judge you.
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lets stop this stuip fighting. i dont no why you started with me and also i dont no why i continued. were did you go which brown school. you no it is funny but you remind me of some one in one of my raps.
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I didn't start with you, all I did was call you out because you made a stupid blanket statement. You're the one who got all butthurt and took it personal and tried to attack me. But believe me, I'll start with whoever I want.
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which brown school did you go to. i am just wondering.
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"I can think of a few side affects that you don't even realize until years after the program. One is that you lose your sense of boundaries. You overshare at inappropriate times or you distance yourself when you shouldn't because you are used to people exploiting and distorting your feelings, disregarding your thoughts and feelings in favor of program thinking. Also, you may have picked up some of the useless and abominable ways of interacting. The real world ain't gonna respond to your little rap tactics too favorably. Basically, I think it fucks with your interrelating skills and your ability to set boundaries, because NO ONE respected any boundaries."
this is so true. it took me years to learn to keep my mouth shut and not get into a dmc (deep meaningful conversation) with a total stranger, or 'confront' my family members and friends. or 'share my feelings' with them. with age and maturity you eventually get over it since life kicks your ass much harder than cedu ever could. if there is an upside to the things i learned in raps, it's how to totally out talk, out argue and generally fuck with someone's head if needed.
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On 2006-01-12 19:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Total fear of confrontation.
Lack of confidence.
Isolation because of this.
Lack of friends, didn't want to get close to anyone.
Total anger for having to go there and experience that bullshit.
Crappy relationship with my family.
when i went back home i became more depressed and withdrawn than i'd ever been before. I wanted to be alone all the time. didnt feel comfortable at all around friends i had known before i got sent away.
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I still have side effects.
The biggest being that I feel "different" than anyone who hasn't gone to RMA/Cedu.
The second biggest now realizing RMA/Cedu has traumatized me. Here is an example... Right now, 20 years after RMA/Cedu/Hilltop I am "in my shit" and feeling dirty about it. I am not dirty but I feel dirty and like I should be on bans from everyone because I am in my shit. I believe we were trained to believe that "being in your shit" is bad like being dirty is bad. Instead of looking forward to seeing a handful of RMA Old-timers this weekend I'm feeling like maybe it's better I stay away so I don't drag them down with me, and feeling like this sucks. Is there anyone else who has felt like I do right now?
The third being I have no tolerance for crowds, period.
Here's my edit - Forget "side effects". It has been 20 years since I attended RMA/Cedu/Hilltop. It's permanent DAMAGE. Not side effects.
[ This Message was edited by: 3BeanSalad on 2006-03-23 00:45 ]
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On 2006-03-23 00:34:00, 3BeanSalad wrote:
Here's my edit - Forget "side effects". It has been 20 years since I attended RMA/Cedu/Hilltop. It's permanent DAMAGE. Not side effects.
[ This Message was edited by: 3BeanSalad on 2006-03-23 00:45 ]"
Its been 17 years since I went there so I get how you feel. Um yeah that is definately one word to describe it. DAMAGED. Does anyone else ever wonder "what is even normal?", after being there your sense of reality sure does get shafted :silly:
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In fact, people call me crazy all the time.
Me too. That's because I am. But I was batshit crazy before I ever went to RMA. Bwahahahahaa! Strangely enough, RMA didn't seem to address that problem. That's ok, though. I'd be lonely without all of the voices, and Mr. Dingle.
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Salad, Straight was structured a little differently, but I've felt exactly that and read about it from a lot of other people around here too.
Getting depressed and anxious over getting busted being depressed and anxious. Same toxic head games. You just have to see how the trick works and don't fall for it. Go have fun w/ your friends or, if it's their company in particular that brings on the anxiety, spend time w/ someone who puts you at ease.
Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.
--Friedrich Nietzsche
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Considering that I was definitely depressed and asocial beforehand, the only adverse effects for me were/are a tendency toward absolutism and increased callousness. On the flip-side, the stuff I learned helped me get through my suicidal period in the Navy, and help me cope with schizo/sociopathic ideation (despite medication)... so... <shrug>
(my overall opinion doesn't fit the tone here, so...)
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Just curious: how did it help; specifically what was it you learned and in what way did it help you.
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On the flip-side, the stuff I learned helped me get through my suicidal period in the Navy, and help me cope with schizo/sociopathic ideation (despite medication)... so... <shrug>
Ye gods. That sounds rough.
When and where were you stationed? (if you dont mind my asking)
Also, thanks for serving.
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Postby Namtar ยป 27 Aug 2009, 19:33
Considering that I was definitely depressed and asocial beforehand, the only adverse effects for me were/are a tendency toward absolutism and increased callousness. On the flip-side, the stuff I learned helped me get through my suicidal period in the Navy, and help me cope with schizo/sociopathic ideation (despite medication)... so... <shrug>
(my overall opinion doesn't fit the tone here, so...)
Seems to me you fully fit the tone here. You were depressed and anti-social before going there. They didn't cure you of that. You are now leaning towards absolutism and callousness so you didn't become some "better person" by attending one of these schools. And eventually you were considering suicide... Sounds to me like you walked away from your experience there and the fake tools they gave you, and for one brief shining moment, you retook control, didn't take your own life and have a solid grip on what problems you have today and are willing to face them. Right on! Trust me, the stuff you think you learned were not what saved you.
My problems are the complete opposite. I was never depressed before RMA but have suffered from it since leaving there and realizing nothing there helped me, but ruined my relationship with my family. Before RMA I never ever considered suicide. After RMA I tried on three separate occasions. I took abut 250 sleeping pills, no affect. Then I hung myself twice, rope broke the first time, second time I have no logical explanation for. But RMA didn't cure me. I should never have been considering suicide. I should never have become depressed due to feeling abnormal, not a normal person in society, awkward around friends, unwelcome by my parents. Before RMA I felt I could do anything. After RMA I had doubts, still have doubts, can't get my shit together to really accomplish much of anything. Everything seems like too big of a mountain to climb including getting up in the morning. I have no real pleasure in any aspect of my life. I spend probably eight to ten hours a day fantasizing about how my life could have been so much better and it usually starts with my NOT going to RMA.
I equate graduating from one of these schools to someone going in to prison in 1950 and coming out in 2009 and having no clue...no idea what's going on. No skills worth a damn. No sense of belonging. Everything moving way too fast. People you used to know seem different, but you know it is you who has changed. Before you got out of prison you were sure you had a good idea of what you were going to go do with your life, but somehow, right after leaving and for years after you realize your plan wasn't based on reality because you lived in such a strange place for so long you lost your sense of reality. You still feel guilty for all your crimes, even though you were probably innocent to begin with, but you were made to believe you were a horrible person, so you came to believe it too.
That's how I felt after leaving RMA, how I still feel today and it was 23 years ago when I graduated.
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That captures much of my feelings also. I never talked to anyone about Cedu after leaving, if anything all I could really get across was 'that place was fucked up', but it was very disturbing to me that I knew no one could really understand. More accurately I thought others felt that this place helped them for the most part, and I thought Cedu genuinely was intending to give insighful knowledge. But since it didn't work for me it made me think that I somehow failed at it or didn't get it, which is a painful reflection after having given so much of myself there.
Some years after cedu I ran into some kid who went there a different time from me. He immediately started spouting about how much it helped his family and was good for him. I pretty much went bat shit, completely out of control. I went on some tyrade probably saying things like 'you must like telling your story and listening to sick disclosures', whatever I could have said to make him leave. The change came over me like night and day, this simple encounter that I was not expecting involving that place so many years ago still threatened me enough to snap in a way I can only equate to ptsd.
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Yeah, it is a rude awakening when you finally realize what they did to you.
My closest buddy got married about ten years ago. So this was 14 years after we had graduated. He told her about the place and she said, "It was a cult." And he tried to defend it but couldn't. And then when he told me, I was like.... well, not a cult! It was strange and all but a cult? And then as we discussed it, how absolutely bizarre it all was and how none of it was based in reality I finally had to accept that I had attended a cult, based on the cults Synanon, EST, LifeSpring, concocted by a furniture salesman to make money.
It also took hearing people tell of their own experiences for me to realize I went through that too. I mainly had focused on the friendship I had made while I was there. We "talked" about our time there often over the last 24 years, but we never really "discussed" what we did until he tried to explain it to his wife. She heard his description and without any reservation, from a completely neutral and rational viewpoint, said CULT. And as we began to really talk about it, and read other peoples statements, it became so crystal clear so quickly. We didn't really need to be convinced, we just needed to hear someone else, someone we could trust, tell us what we had felt deep down for years.
And it is because of feelings of guilt I suppose. Feeling like you were supposed to have been cured, but knowing you weren't, but assuming everyone else was and you were somehow the only one who just didn't get it.
But what truly made it clear for me is the complete inability to be able to describe the place and the things we went through so someone who was not there could actually understand. And because it is so impossible to easily explain something we were so familiar with, in language an ordinary person could grasp, sealed it for me. I knew it was a cult because only a cult would be so odd as to defy normal description. (Not to say a cult is the ONLY thing that is hard to describe.) Just that the experiences we went through were so far from normal, so far out of touch with reality as others understand it, that you are left feeling like you are describing being abducted by aliens. Nobody believes you. The things you are talking about defy both accurate description and therefore accurate understanding. Like trying to tell someone how it feels to be water boarded and they don't think what you are describing could possibly be THAT bad!
The CEDU Documentary did a good job with Raps. They said, "You really have no idea what it is like to have fifteen people get up, move across the room from you, knowing they are all about to scream at the top of their lungs at you." And most people don't have any idea what that is like and would have trouble truly understanding.
And NOT being able to clearly explain CEDU, RMA or any of the other places leaves you feeling awkward and a little helpless. Like you are trying to describe in detail a nightmare you had a couple of nights before where you are saying, "And you were there, but it wasn't really you. I mean it was, but you looked like someone else, but I knew it was you because when you told me to grab the grapefruit... or was it the sewing machine?..well anyway, you were there and we were running for some reason, trying to get to the bus station but I can't remember why, but they needed grapefruits. And I just remember you kept getting your feet stuck in wet cement and you kept sinking deeper and deeper and I kept trying to help you because we were in a hurry, but every time I tried to scream at you to hurry I dropped the grapefruit and it kept rolling across the freeway, which was weird because we were at school and there's no freeway there, and your mom kept driving by us and she wouldn't help..."
That's how I feel when I try and describe RMA and the stuff we did there. Like I am trying to describe a dream I had that is hard to remember and full of such nonsense nobody takes it seriously.