Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools (WWASPS) => Topic started by: Anonymous on December 09, 2005, 11:13:00 AM
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Does anybody know if there is a way to get out of the 12 month contract to these schools? I'm having bad feelings about my daughter at MWA and considering early withdrawal. Am I stuck paying for 90 - 120 days tuition if I pull her early??? Are there any loopholes??
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Check with your attorney - but I would say, If MWA has not provided the services and quality of care you were lead to expect, then you can rightly argue the contract was fraudulent.
I would suggest if you are unhappy with the situation you go and get your daughter.
Arrive unanounced, Take a camera and a tape recorder and document everything.
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On 2005-12-09 08:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Does anybody know if there is a way to get out of the 12 month contract to these schools? I'm having bad feelings about my daughter at MWA and considering early withdrawal. Am I stuck paying for 90 - 120 days tuition if I pull her early??? Are there any loopholes??
"
Not a lawyer but ...
Did they misrepresent anything? Contracts based on misrepresentation are not enforceable.
Did you pay upfront? You are not in such a good bargaining position. You will have to claim the money off them rather than the other way round.
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perhaps rather than look for an "easy way out" you should remain a commited parent, I am a graduate of a wwasp program and I can assure you that during my experience there not only was I kept safe and well cared for, but it also greatly changed my life. If you have any question at all feel free to post them and I will respond asap!
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In any case, your daughter's safety should be your top priority. It should override all monetary considerations.
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On 2005-12-09 09:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
"perhaps rather than look for an "easy way out" you should remain a commited parent, I am a graduate of a wwasp program and I can assure you that during my experience there not only was I kept safe and well cared for, but it also greatly changed my life. If you have any question at all feel free to post them and I will respond asap!"
MWA is an "easy way out." If you are a committed parent you will pull her out now.
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Id pull the kid out now and make sure your kid is okay, THEN worry about the fucking money.
:roll: The wretchedness of religion is at once an expression and a protest against real wretchedness. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the feeling of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of unspiritual conditions. It is the opium of the people.
--Karl Marx, German economist and political philosopher
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I am planning on getting her. I guess that is another question, what is the best way to approach the situation. Just show up unannounced, with no warning to family rep or school. They no that we have some questions regarding acedemic issues. Has anyone gone through this experience??
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On 2005-12-09 10:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I am planning on getting her. I guess that is another question, what is the best way to approach the situation. Just show up unannounced, with no warning to family rep or school. They no that we have some questions regarding acedemic issues. Has anyone gone through this experience??"
Just come uannounced. If you'll tell them you're going to disenroll her before going, they'll make up some new reason why you have to wait longer before doing that, or why you have to pay more money, or something like that. It's happened before.
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Although those on this board never seem to follow it, I personally believe that "honesty is the best policy." Like I said before I am a graduate of a wwasp school, other than that I assure you that I am in no way employed or affiliated with that company. My suggestion is to call your family rep and discuss it with them, if you're not satisfied by that answer ask to speak with the director. I will warn you that i've have seen over and over again that kids pulled from the programs often are worse then they were before the program, for the simple reason that they feel that they have won, they have beat their parents. It was obviously a very difficult decision to send your daughter to MWA, and I'm sure there were several underlying reasons for that decision, contrary to the belief of some of the "anti-program" posters this decision to send your child to the program is a great sign of commitment, not only to your child, but to your overall family wellness. Again if you would like to speak to me personally just post an e-mail adress to contact you at, and I would be glad to e-mail you, or send you my phone number so that I can answer any further questions!
-Proudgrad!
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On 2005-12-09 10:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Although those on this board never seem to follow it, I personally believe that "honesty is the best policy." Like I said before I am a graduate of a wwasp school, other than that I assure you that I am in no way employed or affiliated with that company. My suggestion is to call your family rep and discuss it with them, if you're not satisfied by that answer ask to speak with the director. I will warn you that i've have seen over and over again that kids pulled from the programs often are worse then they were before the program, for the simple reason that they feel that they have won, they have beat their parents. It was obviously a very difficult decision to send your daughter to MWA, and I'm sure there were several underlying reasons for that decision, contrary to the belief of some of the "anti-program" posters this decision to send your child to the program is a great sign of commitment, not only to your child, but to your overall family wellness. Again if you would like to speak to me personally just post an e-mail adress to contact you at, and I would be glad to e-mail you, or send you my phone number so that I can answer any further questions!
-Proudgrad!"
The graduate of WWASPS here that post by name are against it. Remember Ashley Perrigaud? She posts as "perrigaud" and is totally open about the WWASPS programs she was in, the bullshit, and the seminars. You, however, are full of vague bullshit and cant openly discuss anything, and try to drag it into email so you cant be bothered with awful things such as "the truth" or "common sense".
Also, this little gem right here sheds a lot of light onto your mentality...
I will warn you that i've have seen over and over again that kids pulled from the programs often are worse then they were before the program, for the simple reason that they feel that they have won, they have beat their parents. It was obviously a very difficult decision to send your daughter to MWA, and I'm sure there were several underlying reasons for that decision, contrary to the belief of some of the "anti-program" posters this decision to send your child to the program is a great sign of commitment, not only to your child, but to your overall family wellness.
So, according to you, its a battle of parent vs child, the parent must win (and the child must lose) and for "family wellness" you have to divide the family by locking up the kid somewhere where they are kept as a prisoner. And, anyone who disagrees with this bullshit is merely "anti-program".
What kind of bullshit is that? The childs being abused and mind-fucked in a seminar and the only thing you seem to indicate is that you had it successfully beaten into you that you had to lose, and you had to submit to the program and to your parents, and you had to know your role, is that right? Family wellness is regurgitating the bullshit that comes from the mouth of a facilitator when your "peers" "run your number" or some other humiliating or traumatic mindgame is going on in a seminar that you HAVE to participate in, right?
:wave: dont let the door hit your ass on the way out, it must be sore for being kicked so hard. Then again, its something you should be used to!Everything in moderation, including moderation.
Mark Twain
[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2005-12-09 11:47 ]
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On 2005-12-09 10:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I am planning on getting her. I guess that is another question, what is the best way to approach the situation. Just show up unannounced, with no warning to family rep or school. They no that we have some questions regarding acedemic issues. Has anyone gone through this experience??"
Planning on getting her out???
PLANNING?!?!?
Youve been here long enough to know what goes on in these places and youre PLANNING!??!?! I guess if she was on fire youd PLAN to go get a towel or water, or PLAN on calling 911?
Would you PLAN on leaving a building that caught on fire when you got around to it?
GET HER OUT. NOW. If you can afford WWASPS you can afford a plane ticket!I condemn false prophets, I condemn the effort to take away the power of rational decision, to drain people of their free will--and a hell of a lot of money in the bargain. Religions vary in their degree of idiocy, but I reject them all. For most people, religion is nothing more than a substitute for a malfunctioning brain.
--Gene Roddenberry, Creator of Star Trek
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Proud grad - Sure honesty is the best policy.
You need to preach this message to that program you are so enthralled with.
Suggesting this person consult with the FR and Director is more than a bit naive. Both of these persons are paid to get and keep kids in the program. Honesty is not on their list of priorities.
Concerned parent -
Do not call ahead. Just go. Do record everything.
As for her credits and records - they may try to hold all this - but maybe there are ways to pressure for their release. Consult an attorney. States laws varrie. You might be able to get help from the state in forcing the prompt release of her records. Call the state capitol for information on who might be able to help. You might want to start with the State attorneys office; the department of education, and possibly consumer protection.
You might want to consider taking your daughter to the doctor asap for a full health evaluation.
If there has been a significant shift in her weight, for example - you might want documentation of this. If she has infections that have gone untreated - or injuries untreated - these things need to be documented.
Also, understand that typically, the full account of conditions in such a program are only slowly revealed. It can take many months before some things are related. It can be a very slow process for some kids.
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Nihilanthic,
Yes in the battle between parent and "out of control" child, the parent MUST win. This is not the everyday battle of what your child wears, or what show there watching on TV; this is a life and death battle. Webster's dictionary defines parent as: "A guardian; a protector." and the act of parenting as,? To act as a parent to; raise and nurture." Sending a child to a program is fulfilling this very principle, it's taking that child life and well being in to your own hands, yes that battle must be won. The role of a parent is to be somewhat like a supervisor, to raise and teach your child to go in the right direction, to make proper choices, and excel in all they do; it is not the role of a parent to merely be a friend, or to helplessly watch their child head down a road of destruction.
As for why I post anonymously on this board rather than post my name is two-fold. First of all due to the character of many who post on this board I do not feel it would be in the best interest of myself or my family to do so for safety concerns. I would not put in past many of you to show up at my door to cause some type of harm, because the internal anger that many of you experience is clearly revealed through your posts and language. The second reason is that I plan on sometime in the near future either opening or becoming involved with residential treatment centers for troubled teens. I truly believe that they are an invaluable tool in the lives of struggling teens, and that they do MUCH more good than harm. Upon completion of my degree I plan on pursuing a career in this field, and would never want those on this board to create fallacies about myself and my program as they consistently do on the board.
-Proudgrad!
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///The second reason is that I plan on sometime in the near future either opening or becoming involved with residential treatment centers for troubled teens. ///
Does this translate to: I'm going to work for WWASPS?
Seems a fairly common scenario - the program grads go to work for the program. It makes sense - where else in the world can they be successful spouting program jargon? Once programmed, it seems the program is the one place they can manage to function. Dealing with the un-programmed is probably very un-comfortable for you. Far better to remain where everyone speaks the same language . . .
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lol, buzzkill! Perhaps it is because we want to give back a little of what we were given, and help others to transform their lives as we have. No, I don't plan on working for wwasp, rather it is my goal to open my own school. It's interesting how I have learned much of what you call program jargon throughout my University education. Theories taught in the program and the seminars are surely reinforced by various theories found within the breadth of social sciences.
- proudgrad!
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Stop dodging the questions and saying a bunch of unsubstantiated bullshit, 'proudgrad'. Prove what you have to say!
For one you cant even demonstrate what you were given, or how it was given to you, and secondly you havent enunciated what the jargon is or what it has to do with a "university education" nor what theories were taught and how they were reinforced, or what they are.
Vague bullshit that is assumed to be true doesnt work - especialy when it comes out of the mouth of a manipulated person such as yourself... who most definitely does not have a Doctorate and thus cant speak on yourself.
Cite some sources! Surely you know how to do that in your "university education" :wink: Every act of a delegated authority, contrary to the tenor of the commission under which it is exercised, is void. No legislative act, therefore, contrary to the Constitution, can be valid. To deny this, would be to affirm, that the deputy is greater than his principal; that the servant is above his master; that the representatives of the people are superior to the people themselves; that men acting by virtue of powers, may do not only what their powers do not authorize, but what they forbid."
--Alexander Hamilton
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On 2005-12-09 13:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"lol, buzzkill! Perhaps it is because we want to give back a little of what we were given, and help others to transform their lives as we have. No, I don't plan on working for wwasp, rather it is my goal to open my own school. It's interesting how I have learned much of what you call program jargon throughout my University education. Theories taught in the program and the seminars are surely reinforced by various theories found within the breadth of social sciences.
- proudgrad! "
what a fucking idiot. have you ever noticed that the most misguided program freaks always want to open their "own school"? i think they view it as a money-making lark and they have some twisted fantasies about being in control of other people. pretty sick.
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Nihilanthic,
Surely I don't have a doctorate huh? I'm sorry to inform you that while I have not yet completed my doctorate i have been accepted into an Ivy League University where I will do so. Guess what the topic of my dissertation will be! Yep, you've guessed it right, "Reducing Juvenile Recidivism: Evaluating the Effect of Long Term Residential Treatment Centers." In case any of you are unaware recidivism is defined as: "A tendency to lapse into a previous pattern of behavior." You're correct in that I cannot yet guarantee whatever the overall effects will be, at the conclusion of my research however I hypothesize that the recidivism rate of those who have graduated from residential treatment centers will be lower than those "troubled" teens who either never had the opportunity to attend a program or were pulled before completion.
I'm not quite sure why some of you seem to have an inability to express yourselves without the use of four letter words; I hope that you do understand that the use of such words as self expression is a outward sign of your inward ignorance!:D
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Proudgrad-
You breathe much needed fresh air into this forum. I appreciate your honesty and straight forwardness in explaining your personal experience of treatment. At this moment, my son who just turned 16, is struggling in school and his home life. He has started using drugs regularly, stays out all night and completely disregards my authority. Before you all jump on and call me a bad parent, know this - I have done everything and anything I could for this boy - I don't know how he has turned out the way he has. Perhaps it is his father, I'm not sure I will ever know, me and my son have zero communication. His father lives on the other side of the continent and shows little interest, so that leaves me with little choice. I have decided to look at the program options available, they seem to have really been of help to most students attending. Proudgrad, I would love to hear more about your story. What brought you into the program? What was it like being away from your family for so long? I have so many questions, I appreciate all the input you can provide. My email is PatriciaSwiggert@hotmail.com
Thanks in advance, I'm glad your program experience was a positive one, I hope the same for my son.
Patricia Swiggert :smile:
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Just be forwarned...as a parent, saying you've tried everything seems to be an open invitation for every disgruntled person to attack you, and it will be among the four letter word variety. I was accused of smoking crack while I was pregnant and that must be the root of my son's problems. I have gotten some positive feedback as well, and yet, no one seems to have answers as to what to do about your teen when they are completely disregarding every rule. As a parent, you are persona non grata to everyone. The school, the system, other kids and even other parents. Everyone thinks you must have done a shitty job. Some folks here would even recommend juvenile detention over any program. I don't get it.
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On 2005-12-09 15:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Proudgrad-
You breathe much needed fresh air into this forum. I appreciate your honesty and straight forwardness in explaining your personal experience of treatment. At this moment, my son who just turned 16, is struggling in school and his home life. He has started using drugs regularly, stays out all night and completely disregards my authority. Before you all jump on and call me a bad parent, know this - I have done everything and anything I could for this boy - I don't know how he has turned out the way he has. Perhaps it is his father, I'm not sure I will ever know, me and my son have zero communication. His father lives on the other side of the continent and shows little interest, so that leaves me with little choice. I have decided to look at the program options available, they seem to have really been of help to most students attending. Proudgrad, I would love to hear more about your story. What brought you into the program? What was it like being away from your family for so long? I have so many questions, I appreciate all the input you can provide. My email is PatriciaSwiggert@hotmail.com
Thanks in advance, I'm glad your program experience was a positive one, I hope the same for my son.
Patricia Swiggert :smile: "
Sure, send the kid to a program where he will be reminded everyday what it feels like to be unwanted and unloved (by his father) and now his mother, the person who sent him away under the guise of "helping" him cope with lousy parents.
Way to go, Mom. I hope your son catches on to your diabolical scheme and goes to live with other relatives. You are the problem and your solution is proof positive that YOU NEED HELP, not your kid.
:roll:
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On 2005-12-09 15:44:00, famjaztique wrote:
"Just be forwarned...as a parent, saying you've tried everything seems to be an open invitation for every disgruntled person to attack you, and it will be among the four letter word variety. I was accused of smoking crack while I was pregnant and that must be the root of my son's problems. I have gotten some positive feedback as well, and yet, no one seems to have answers as to what to do about your teen when they are completely disregarding every rule. As a parent, you are persona non grata to everyone. The school, the system, other kids and even other parents. Everyone thinks you must have done a shitty job. Some folks here would even recommend juvenile detention over any program. I don't get it. "
Well, did you do a shitty job? Does your kid need a program or do you need therapy? Most of the time, it's the latter. Kids that really do need help don't belong in some private lock down prison. Do you job and get help for your issues.
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On 2005-12-09 13:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"lol, buzzkill! Perhaps it is because we want to give back a little of what we were given, and help others to transform their lives as we have. No, I don't plan on working for wwasp, rather it is my goal to open my own school. It's interesting how I have learned much of what you call program jargon throughout my University education. Theories taught in the program and the seminars are surely reinforced by various theories found within the breadth of social sciences.
- proudgrad! "
you remind me of this other program troll here a while back that said they were obtaining a degree in law so they could defend WWASP and other similar programs forever.. ::ftard:: mine as well rid yourself of this poison while youre young...
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Sure nuff, proud grad?
Your Own Program!
Well, I can believe that easy enough.
I can also easily believe you'll be getting your seed money from "uncle" Bobby; and as he'll want to protect and encourage the success of the investment, no doubt he'll kindly have TeenHelp, and the large net work of program parents, recruiting for you - Shoot - if you play your cards right, he might even send you a pack of upper levels from one of his own programs to help get you started.
Might even give you a car to drive.
Corse - he'd likely expect a percentage of your enrollment fees - but it would be Your program, not wwasps.
Besides, aren't they are All independently owned :roll:
So - you say you speak the same "language" you learned in the program, during your higher educational experience?
Well, I suppose its possible. Still, I can't say any college student I know (and I know a number of them) has ever used the term "Step Left", or,?Based on results you have exactly what you intended.? And, Certainly not, "Trust the Program" or "Trust the Process" as I'm told they now parrot.
Ya know - I too am glad you feel you were helped.
Really.
But the process that you feel helped you is devastating for many others. And, I still feel in time - say about five years or so out - you'll begin to see more clearly that what "helped" you was not as free of negative side effects as you now proclaim.
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On 2005-12-09 14:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Nihilanthic,
Surely I don't have a doctorate huh? I'm sorry to inform you that while I have not yet completed my doctorate i have been accepted into an Ivy League University where I will do so. Guess what the topic of my dissertation will be! Yep, you've guessed it right, "Reducing Juvenile Recidivism: Evaluating the Effect of Long Term Residential Treatment Centers." In case any of you are unaware recidivism is defined as: "A tendency to lapse into a previous pattern of behavior." You're correct in that I cannot yet guarantee whatever the overall effects will be, at the conclusion of my research however I hypothesize that the recidivism rate of those who have graduated from residential treatment centers will be lower than those "troubled" teens who either never had the opportunity to attend a program or were pulled before completion.
I'm not quite sure why some of you seem to have an inability to express yourselves without the use of four letter words; I hope that you do understand that the use of such words as self expression is a outward sign of your inward ignorance!:D"
ProudGrad -- Dont take it personally this Nihilanthic guy is young, hasnt been fully educated himself and feels threatened by your success. Once he moves into higher education himself (if he does) he will understand more and start to contribute more personal insight instead of just attacking and brow beating.
I use to be razed by some friends who stayed behind when I went away to college, but when they started taking courses themselves and matured that stuff goes away, Nihilanthic will grow out of it.
hang in there
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On 2005-12-09 16:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
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On 2005-12-09 14:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Nihilanthic,
Surely I don't have a doctorate huh? I'm sorry to inform you that while I have not yet completed my doctorate i have been accepted into an Ivy League University where I will do so. Guess what the topic of my dissertation will be! Yep, you've guessed it right, "Reducing Juvenile Recidivism: Evaluating the Effect of Long Term Residential Treatment Centers." In case any of you are unaware recidivism is defined as: "A tendency to lapse into a previous pattern of behavior." You're correct in that I cannot yet guarantee whatever the overall effects will be, at the conclusion of my research however I hypothesize that the recidivism rate of those who have graduated from residential treatment centers will be lower than those "troubled" teens who either never had the opportunity to attend a program or were pulled before completion.
I'm not quite sure why some of you seem to have an inability to express yourselves without the use of four letter words; I hope that you do understand that the use of such words as self expression is a outward sign of your inward ignorance!:D"
ProudGrad -- Dont take it personally this Nihilanthic guy is young, hasnt been fully educated himself and feels threatened by your success. Once he moves into higher education himself (if he does) he will understand more and start to contribute more personal insight instead of just attacking and brow beating.
I use to be razed by some friends who stayed behind when I went away to college, but when they started taking courses themselves and matured that stuff goes away, Nihilanthic will grow out of it.
hang in there"
I second this. The main difference between the ones on here who are open-minded about the issue and those who can't reach beyond the four-letter words as they trash programs and parents seems to be education. Whether they lack any authentic experience or a degree, the one defining characteristic seems to be ignorance. Thanks for the breath of fresh air.
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The main difference is...
some have been tortured by programs.
and some have not.
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tortured, hmm thats funny i was in the program for 15 months and never saw anything that even slightly resembled torture
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On 2005-12-09 17:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"tortured, hmm thats funny i was in the program for 15 months and never saw anything that even slightly resembled torture"
I did. and many others.
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On 2005-12-09 17:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
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On 2005-12-09 17:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"tortured, hmm thats funny i was in the program for 15 months and never saw anything that even slightly resembled torture"
I did. and many others. "
I did too. I saw them keeping kids like animals locked up in the hobbit for weeks, it's disguting. These places are a scam, the only ones who make out from this shitty deal are WWASP execs, everyone else gets screwed. These WWASP programs prepare you for nothing other than to take orders.. guess that's why so many join the military out of it. That's why the really freaky program people just end up working at the facility they were incarcerated at. Or maybe start their own.. ? :roll:
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fuck wwasp i was locked up for 19 months of hell. i wouldnt wish it on my worst enemy. if a parent thinks its a good idea to get family therapy from bill oreailly you might want to try wwasp.
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Oh Good grief - get off your high "education" horse.
How much education does Jay Kay have? How 'bout his pop - Ken Kay? How much education do any of the principal WWASP owners and operators have?
Wasn't it Kenny, who said a person didn't need an education to help kids? Or was that Jay?
Anybody got that quote handy?
How about Ken's meteoric rise to power and authority at Brightway "hospital"? He shot right up the ladder, with no education to speak of.
Went from security guard, to President/Director of the "Hospital", in a matter of months. Might even have been weeks . . .
It would be quite impressive, if it didn't indicate such blatant fraud. If you want to read about it, Check out his testimony at the WWASP v PURE trial.
One things for sure, You Program people have got no business looking down your nose at anybody's education, or lack thereof.
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You know what, I'm not going to offer another post explaining mine or my son's situation. But I can tell you this, if your true motivation is to keep parents from sending their kids to any of these programs, that would be best served by less insulting and more helping. That's kind of a no-brainer, but then....
:wink:
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You assume to know people's motivation for posting on this board...
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On 2005-12-09 21:41:00, famjaztique wrote:
"You know what, I'm not going to offer another post explaining mine or my son's situation. "
Say it ain't so!! ::blushing:: ::blushing:: ::blushing:: ::hatter:: ::noway:: ::mecry:: ::mecry:: ::mecry:: ::mecry:: ::mecry::
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On 2005-12-09 14:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Nihilanthic,
Surely I don't have a doctorate huh? I'm sorry to inform you that while I have not yet completed my doctorate i have been accepted into an Ivy League University where I will do so. Guess what the topic of my dissertation will be! Yep, you've guessed it right, "Reducing Juvenile Recidivism: Evaluating the Effect of Long Term Residential Treatment Centers." In case any of you are unaware recidivism is defined as: "A tendency to lapse into a previous pattern of behavior." You're correct in that I cannot yet guarantee whatever the overall effects will be, at the conclusion of my research however I hypothesize that the recidivism rate of those who have graduated from residential treatment centers will be lower than those "troubled" teens who either never had the opportunity to attend a program or were pulled before completion.
I'm not quite sure why some of you seem to have an inability to express yourselves without the use of four letter words; I hope that you do understand that the use of such words as self expression is a outward sign of your inward ignorance!:D"
I can curse all I awnt, it doesnt mean its not true. 1+1=2, dammit. And, the fucking Riemann Zeta Hypothesis states that every fucking non-trivial zero's real part is 1/2. PS, its fucking complex, and still unproven, dammit, though its almost a forgone conclusion that its true, dammit.
Anywho, "You're correct in that I cannot yet guarantee whatever the overall effects will be, at the conclusion of my research however I hypothesize that the recidivism rate of those who have graduated from residential treatment centers will be lower than those "troubled" teens who either never had the opportunity to attend a program or were pulled before completion." congrats, you got a fucking hypothesis.
SHOW SOME DATA OR SHUT THE HELL UP. Ive got so many people here saying they did more drugs or fucked around MORE after the program because of the trauma of it Id love to see what you could possibly come up with, furthermore how would you find data on recidivism of those who werent put in the programs? Good luck, however MOST troubled kids dont go in programs and do fine.
Also, you still havent demonstarted HOW the programs do anything, or WHAT they do.
Why not start now? You keep saying you will do this and that and the other and speak of what will happen... yet you dont speak your name or what college you go to! Whereas Perrigaud told us her name and where she went.
Jesus christ, why am I talking to you? You cant even say what the programs do or how they do it. I told all four that there are going to be some times where we don't
agree with each other, but that's OK. If this were a dictatorship, it
would be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator.
--GW Büsh, CNN.com, December 18, 2000
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On 2005-12-09 16:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-12-09 14:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Nihilanthic,
Surely I don't have a doctorate huh? I'm sorry to inform you that while I have not yet completed my doctorate i have been accepted into an Ivy League University where I will do so. Guess what the topic of my dissertation will be! Yep, you've guessed it right, "Reducing Juvenile Recidivism: Evaluating the Effect of Long Term Residential Treatment Centers." In case any of you are unaware recidivism is defined as: "A tendency to lapse into a previous pattern of behavior." You're correct in that I cannot yet guarantee whatever the overall effects will be, at the conclusion of my research however I hypothesize that the recidivism rate of those who have graduated from residential treatment centers will be lower than those "troubled" teens who either never had the opportunity to attend a program or were pulled before completion.
I'm not quite sure why some of you seem to have an inability to express yourselves without the use of four letter words; I hope that you do understand that the use of such words as self expression is a outward sign of your inward ignorance!:D"
ProudGrad -- Dont take it personally this Nihilanthic guy is young, hasnt been fully educated himself and feels threatened by your success. Once he moves into higher education himself (if he does) he will understand more and start to contribute more personal insight instead of just attacking and brow beating.
I use to be razed by some friends who stayed behind when I went away to college, but when they started taking courses themselves and matured that stuff goes away, Nihilanthic will grow out of it.
hang in there"
Im in my second year of college. Im also very openminded, but that doesnt mean I just BELIEVE what Im told. I dont really beleive much at all. Also, my IQ is 146, and Im a science major. Want to start an intellectual dick-wagging war? :lol:
I ask for proof, I ask for evidence - I ask them to enumerate what a program does, and how it does it, and I get no answers whatsoever.
When I push it, Im told it falls back upon seminars, and the evidence I've seen about the seminars is its little more than a LGAT. Coersive and traumatic mindgames are not therapy!
Also, no matter how much I curse, it doesnt change the fact. It just expresses my frustration and contempt of people such as yourself. Come the millennium,
month 12,
in the home of greatest power,
the village idiot will come forth to
be acclaimed the leader.
--Nostradamus
-
On 2005-12-09 16:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-12-09 16:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-12-09 14:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Nihilanthic,
Surely I don't have a doctorate huh? I'm sorry to inform you that while I have not yet completed my doctorate i have been accepted into an Ivy League University where I will do so. Guess what the topic of my dissertation will be! Yep, you've guessed it right, "Reducing Juvenile Recidivism: Evaluating the Effect of Long Term Residential Treatment Centers." In case any of you are unaware recidivism is defined as: "A tendency to lapse into a previous pattern of behavior." You're correct in that I cannot yet guarantee whatever the overall effects will be, at the conclusion of my research however I hypothesize that the recidivism rate of those who have graduated from residential treatment centers will be lower than those "troubled" teens who either never had the opportunity to attend a program or were pulled before completion.
I'm not quite sure why some of you seem to have an inability to express yourselves without the use of four letter words; I hope that you do understand that the use of such words as self expression is a outward sign of your inward ignorance!:D"
ProudGrad -- Dont take it personally this Nihilanthic guy is young, hasnt been fully educated himself and feels threatened by your success. Once he moves into higher education himself (if he does) he will understand more and start to contribute more personal insight instead of just attacking and brow beating.
I use to be razed by some friends who stayed behind when I went away to college, but when they started taking courses themselves and matured that stuff goes away, Nihilanthic will grow out of it.
hang in there"
I second this. The main difference between the ones on here who are open-minded about the issue and those who can't reach beyond the four-letter words as they trash programs and parents seems to be education. Whether they lack any authentic experience or a degree, the one defining characteristic seems to be ignorance. Thanks for the breath of fresh air. "
Ignorance? Its not my fault when I ask what a program does or how it does it nobody answers me! :rofl:
Why not learn how to clearly state an answer to a simple query and learn to use details. Im VERY open minded but I dont accept something with no evidence and nothing to back it up. There is no detail in your statements, and no substance - its vague and full of double-binds and attempted attacks upon the person questioning you and your program.
Quit attacking my vocabulary and answer the question that Ive asked REPEATEDLY instead of talking about crap that nobody asked, or talking to yourself about the "Breath of fresh air". The only thing Im hearing from you and yourself, or the two of you is a lot of HOT air.
Tell me what a program does, and how it does it, and provide details and proof. People who say its abusive have managed to do both for YEARS! Guess why I believe them?And now the liberals want to stop President Reagan from selling chemical warfare agents and military equipment to Saddam Hussein and why? Because Saddam 'allegedly' gassed a few Kurds in his own country. Mark my words. All of this talk of Saddam Hussein being a 'war criminal' or 'committing crimes against humanity' is the same old thing. LIBERAL HATE SPEECH! and speaking of poison gas... I SAY WE ROUND UP ALL THE DRUG ADDICTS AND GAS THEM TOO!
--Rush Limbaugh, November 3, 1988
-
On 2005-12-10 03:41:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"146 IQ... put your dick away I put you to shame!
146.5!Religion is a byproduct of fear. For much of human history, it may have been a necessary evil, but why was it more evil than necessary? Isn't killing people in the name of God a pretty good definition of insanity?
--Arthur C. Clarke, author
"
Oh TSW, dont you know that the IQ scale goes with natural numbers? No fractions, no zeroes, no negatives. :wink:I cannot believe in the immortality of the soul.... No, all this talk of an existence for us, as individuals, beyond the grave is wrong. It is born of our tenacity of life -- our desire to go on living -- our dread of coming to an end.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor
-
Okay boys, play nice!!! Anyway, this proudgrad person is on my last nerve! I was trying to help Fanjazmituque or whatever her name is, these last couple days but I've grown tired of her whining. She's obviously not strong enough to handle a teenage boy herself, maybe her son can be the first to be enrolled at proudgrads school?!! I realized just this morning, in the year that I went to CCM I never once went to a doctor, nor did I go to the dentist. It's a good thing I never got sick. Strangly enough, I did have to have a root canal performed shortly after my release I was only 17!?!! Hmm........I never even thought twice that maybe if the folks at Cross Creek Manor actually got us to doctor/dentist appointments that I wouldn't have had to go through that! That place is a joke, and for all of you who think that place is so great, I think you are FREAKS (freaks that are employed by WWASP to speak on behalf of them). Seriously, what's wrong with you????? You offend people like myself who are emotionally scarred by that place. I'm 32, I just found this site 3 months ago, and I am PISSED OFF that these places are still around, and have multiplied in numbers. I did suffer abuse there, and since it was in the very begginning of these places being opened, NOBODY believed me. It makes me feel good to have others that have come out over the last 15 years and tell their personal stories of abuse, it makes me feel like I'm not the only one. To those of you parents getting ready to send their kids away, I feel sorry for your kids. It's obvious to me that YOU are the ones in need of therapy.
-
On 2005-12-09 14:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
""Reducing Juvenile Recidivism: Evaluating the Effect of Long Term Residential Treatment Centers.""
Well, you won't be the first to complete a study about these programs. However, I'll venture a guess that you'll be the FIRST to announce that they're the only reasonable course of action to take and that without them your child will end up "Dead, insane, or in Jail."
Why don't you do some research on the studies already completed? Each and every one done says that programs ar either harmful or do nothing.
Like I said, though, you've already got your verdict. Now you just need to fit your story into your conclusion.
You're going to make a fine scientist, son, a fine scientist! :lol:
-
***Like I said, though, you've already got your verdict. Now you just need to fit your story into your conclusion.
Precisely. Sounds very much like Ottawa.
It didn't take long, reading between the lines and observing her behavior, to uncover her real motive. She was here to gather evidence to support her thesis- that some kids are just too fucked up for the program to fix.
She did this by baiting volitile survivors to the point of anger to justify her musings. Totally unethical.
The methods and techniques need to be exposed. Do the ends justify the means?
And, as so many have witnessed here, they are not going to expose for scrutiny, the methods and techniques that aren't spell out in their parent manuals. Parents think their kids are living in a loving, structured environment with reasonable rules and consequences, cause what decent person would actually harm a child in the name of helping. Many also erroneously believe that any such institution has checks and balances to prevent abuse. That's where survivors can bust the illusion so light can shine on the scam.
These places do so well because the majority of the population has been brainwashed toward violence as a justifiable means to an end- not new. They believe as Shrub believes- the constitutions is just a 'goddamned piece of paper' and damnit, sometimes torture is necessary. It's a very sick paradigm that pervades the thinking of a large percentage of the population. Compounded by a society that is not child-friendly and parents who are scared shitless and programs that capitalize on their fear.
-
On 2005-12-09 17:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"tortured, hmm thats funny i was in the program for 15 months and never saw anything that even slightly resembled torture"
Wow, that is amazing. I remember when I first started posting on here and I was so damn brainwashed by the program I think I said that exact thing! I think there are different kinds of torture, some people are locked up in tiny white rooms with no ability to talk to anyone or have any freedom what so ever. Some people are taken down for the slightest things, not even for harming themselves or others, just for having a thought or feeling not in line with the programs philosophy. And then theres the torture I endured. I feel like having my identity and my thoughts taken away was torture. I think being lied to and forced into a horrible mindset was torture. I think having to endure TASK seminars and David Gilcreese was torture. And I would know torture, I suffered physical and mental abuse at home for 15 years before I was kidnapped by WWASP. I know it is really hard to belive that a place like the program is bad especially after youve been efficiently brainwashed by them and think that it "saved you life". But I think if you do alot of real soul searching you will see that you agree with us on some level. I know when I was defeding CCM with Perridaud, I would take out paticuler facts about my experience at CCM to make it look better. But relaly I knew, I was terrified at CCM. I developed OCD, I started to pull out my eyebrows and hair and bite the hell out of my fingernails, simply from being so damn afraid all the time. I was constantly in fear of dropping levels, even if I had done nothing wrong. It was horrible.
"I will warn you that i've have seen over and over again that kids pulled from the programs often are worse then they were before the program, for the simple reason that they feel that they have won, they have beat their parents."
oh and as for this guy, that is comlete bullshit.
And as for the original poster, my mom was really onto what was going on at CCM and she demanded my therapist let me talk to her for a week or so. They argued with her, said she was overreacting, she was going to ruin the progress they had already made with me, and that she was a maniulator, she was setting a bad example, if she took me home I would die, etc etc. She demanded to see me anyway and they made her come at a sceduled time and didnt let me talk to her, just let her see me through one way mesh. She said the only reason she didnt pull me that day was becuase she said I looked healthier and happy. Well the reason I looked that way was becasue I had my therapist and family rep gaurding me and telling me to "smile, your mom is watching you!" I never got a chance to tell her how I really felt and I think it would be unwise for you to let them set the rules for you. Remember, they are master manipulators and they do this all the time. They will try their damndest to keep her in and change your mind so they can make profit. Dont let them take your kids personality and free will over. It will only make things worse in the end.
Amanda Foster
-
On 2005-12-09 08:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Does anybody know if there is a way to get out of the 12 month contract to these schools? I'm having bad feelings about my daughter at MWA and considering early withdrawal. Am I stuck paying for 90 - 120 days tuition if I pull her early??? Are there any loopholes??
"
If you've gotten caught up on forum like this, of course you are having bad feelings! Who wouldn't! It's getting to your fear of the unknown!
If you can't go there and see for yourself that she is okay, have another parent that is going to visit take some pictures of her for you - Why are you posting on here and not on the MWA board if you want the real thing?
I know parents that will post on this board because they are looking for an excuse to bring their child home, especially at Christmas time. You will find an excuse here...
Don't you remember why you took a stand for her life and enrolled her at MWA? If that's not enough to keep her there, I don't know what is.
So many kids that get pulled early wonder what life would be like if their parents had believed in them enough to allow them to graduate. If you bring her home without even checking the plae out it out for yourself, it will be for you, not for her.
This board is full of hate and terror. If that's what you want, enjoy and happy holidays.
-
So many kids that get pulled early wonder what life would be like if their parents had believed in them enough to allow them to graduate. If you bring her home without even checking the plae out it out for yourself, it will be for you, not for her.
This board is full of hate and terror. If that's what you want, enjoy and happy holidays. "
[/quote]
You are obviously a program parent. You wouldn't be talking so much bullshit if you were in a program and experienced it for yourself. The kids who have been pulled are usually grateful that their parents saw through WWASPS' manipulation and scare tactics ("your child is in a terrible condition, he/she will DIE if you won't keep them here!", etc.)
Listen to your instincts. You know there's gotta be something wrong when an organization does not allow you to communicate freely with your child. Take your daughter home, and get her some real help.
-
have another parent that is going to visit take some pictures of her for you
:roll:
I remember at SCL every few months, mostly around holiday time they would line us up and trot us into the 'woods' (the pine trees just surrounding the buildings) and take a picture of us. Theyd tell us to smile all big and shit, we never knew what the purpose of this picture was anyways. Turns out when I got home I found out the picture is sent to your parents- to guess what- eliminate their fears. Let me assure you, a picture means jack shit! That place was a private prison for middle class white kids run by crazy mormon cultees. If you don't swallow their ideology they will torture you until you do. I mean literally torture you both emotionally and physically. I can't believe parents pay to abuse their own children. If you had any idea what really happens, you wouldnt'- couldnt'- support WWASP or similar programs. If you did, I would hesitate to call you human.
-
This board is full of hate and terror.
WWASP and other programs are BASED on hate and terror. They wouldn't exist[/b] without hate and terror. The 'treatment' (torture) the programs spew is hate and terror. All you feel while locked up in a WWASP program is hate and terror. You payed to keep your kid in an environment of hate and terror.
You are projecting. It is you who is filled with hate and terror. You support it in every way.
-
On 2005-12-10 03:24:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"
On 2005-12-09 16:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-12-09 14:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Nihilanthic,
Surely I don't have a doctorate huh? I'm sorry to inform you that while I have not yet completed my doctorate i have been accepted into an Ivy League University where I will do so. Guess what the topic of my dissertation will be! Yep, you've guessed it right, "Reducing Juvenile Recidivism: Evaluating the Effect of Long Term Residential Treatment Centers." In case any of you are unaware recidivism is defined as: "A tendency to lapse into a previous pattern of behavior." You're correct in that I cannot yet guarantee whatever the overall effects will be, at the conclusion of my research however I hypothesize that the recidivism rate of those who have graduated from residential treatment centers will be lower than those "troubled" teens who either never had the opportunity to attend a program or were pulled before completion.
I'm not quite sure why some of you seem to have an inability to express yourselves without the use of four letter words; I hope that you do understand that the use of such words as self expression is a outward sign of your inward ignorance!:D"
ProudGrad -- Dont take it personally this Nihilanthic guy is young, hasnt been fully educated himself and feels threatened by your success. Once he moves into higher education himself (if he does) he will understand more and start to contribute more personal insight instead of just attacking and brow beating.
I use to be razed by some friends who stayed behind when I went away to college, but when they started taking courses themselves and matured that stuff goes away, Nihilanthic will grow out of it.
hang in there"
Im in my second year of college. Im also very openminded, but that doesnt mean I just BELIEVE what Im told. I dont really beleive much at all. Also, my IQ is 146, and Im a science major. Want to start an intellectual dick-wagging war? :lol:
I ask for proof, I ask for evidence - I ask them to enumerate what a program does, and how it does it, and I get no answers whatsoever.
When I push it, Im told it falls back upon seminars, and the evidence I've seen about the seminars is its little more than a LGAT. Coersive and traumatic mindgames are not therapy!
Also, no matter how much I curse, it doesnt change the fact. It just expresses my frustration and contempt of people such as yourself. Come the millennium,
month 12,
in the home of greatest power,
the village idiot will come forth to
be acclaimed the leader.
--Nostradamus
"
Okay 146 (you can call me 148) Lets assume you are open minded (as you say) and the rest of us are closed minded. Well closed minded people, like ourselves, cant accept or imagine any other position except the one we hold, so we need data or a strong argument to persuade or dissuade us. So may I put it out it to you? What supportive (non-empirical) data do you have to support your views? What percentage of kids would benefit by not going to an RTC? Are kids safer attending a public school or an RTC? Are kids better off running away vs going to an RTC? What is your data source and population, sample sizes?
I think science will be good for you, at first glance you dont seem to do well interfacing with people (I mean that sincerely), my brother is like that, he does well researching alone or with a small peer group.
Anyway, I have answered your question using Empirical data, you have rejected it. Lets see your numbers!!
-
You retards don't get it. THERE ARE NO NUMBERS! :roll: :roll: :roll: Computate THAT!
-
On 2005-12-10 03:41:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"146 IQ... put your dick away I put you to shame!
146.5!Religion is a byproduct of fear. For much of human history, it may have been a necessary evil, but why was it more evil than necessary? Isn't killing people in the name of God a pretty good definition of insanity?
--Arthur C. Clarke, author
"
Alas, I have no penis with which to demonstrate
My cleverness or intellect, so guess I just don't rate.
But penis or vagina, I can clearly state:
A fellow with such a high IQ should learn to punctuate.
:lol:
-
Okay 146 (you can call me 148) Lets assume you are open minded (as you say) and the rest of us are closed minded. Well closed minded people, like ourselves, cant accept or imagine any other position except the one we hold, so we need data or a strong argument to persuade or dissuade us. So may I put it out it to you? What supportive (non-empirical) data do you have to support your views? What percentage of kids would benefit by not going to an RTC? Are kids safer attending a public school or an RTC? Are kids better off running away vs going to an RTC? What is your data source and population, sample sizes?
I think science will be good for you, at first glance you dont seem to do well interfacing with people (I mean that sincerely), my brother is like that, he does well researching alone or with a small peer group.
Anyway, I have answered your question using Empirical data, you have rejected it. Lets see your numbers!!
First off, considering my IQ of 146 is roughly 1:500, I severely doubt thats yours. If youre trying to start a rivalry or to make me get mad, its not going to work. Theres just too few people smarter than me on this planet (about .2% of the population :wink:) to make me think one of them somehow got suckered into that brainwashy bullshit... especially becuase they're too smart to be tricked by it.
Anyway, youre the one saying a RTC works.
1. Wheres the evidence of a RTC working thats not CLEARLY BIASED?
2. WHAT does a RTC do?
3. HOW does it do that?
4. WHAT answer to empirical data? You havent showed any! Wheres all the information and facts and statistics? All I've seen is WWASP's nonverified, nonverifiable, biased and non-reviwed "statistics", on the side of SUPPORTING their claims, anyway.
Lesse, why do I have the views I do?
1. A large group of people, who are isolated from eachother by time, and distance, totally out of contact, are all accusing the industry of the same things, Their stories all match up. If they were lying, then 25+ years and two generations coudlnt all keep the same lie spread out over the entire USA and numbering in the hundreds of thousands, could they? NO. Thats statistically impossible. Also, each INDIVIDUAL has kept their story straight through the years!
2. The NIMH says the entire model of the program (to the best that I understand them to be, as people such as yourself still cant state what a RTC does, or how it does it, at all) based on humiliation, coersion, etc is ineffective, does not reduce redicivism, and can be damaging in and of itself. Theyre a scentific establishment, you are someone who doesnt even post with an anonymous identity. I havent been able to find the NIMH link, however http://pcs.la.psu.edu/bootcamp2000/Boot ... 0Study.htm (http://pcs.la.psu.edu/bootcamp2000/Boot%20Camp%20Recidivism%20Study.htm) Pennsylvania did a study on their OWN bootcamps and found that it didnt positively effect recidivism.
"This study examined whether offenders who graduate from Pennsylvania's Motivational Boot Camp Program are less likely to recidivate than offenders who are released from prison. Overall, our analysis indicates that, when we control for the influence of other variables, there is no significant difference between the two groups with respect to recidivism. Rather, offenders who are young, unemployed, commit property offenses, are from rural areas, and have longer maximum sentences are more likely to recidivate regardless of whether they go to Boot Camp or prison.
We found employment status to be the best predictor of recidivism. Those offenders who are unemployed are almost three times as likely as those who are employed to commit a new crime or technical violation. Further, when using only new crime convictions as our measure of recidivism, we found unemployed offenders to be over twice as likely as employed offenders to be convicted of a new crime."
Ain't that a BITCH? Oh, btw, not a 4 letter word :lol: It seems getting the kid a JOB makes them less likely to commit a crime. HAR DE HAR HAR. If you'd LET THE KIDS GROW UP THEYD BE FINE!
3. The LGATs employed by the programs have been demonstrated to be little more than what is colloquially known as a "mind fuck", or a pathological effect from being forced into a psychological regression from physical and emotional stress. You know, no rest, humiliation, elimination control (bathroom breaks), not being well fed, coersion, etc. http://perso.wanadoo.fr/eldon.braun/awa ... hology.htm (http://perso.wanadoo.fr/eldon.braun/awareness/pathology.htm) <- look, a source!
So yeah. You got any proof? Any evidence?
The ONLY thing I see from your side are business owners defending their incomes, and parents who dont want to admit they were wrong for whatever reason, if not because they were unduly influenced by the LGATs... or, in laymans terms, brainwashed.Speak gently! 't is a little thing Dropp'd in the heart's deep well; The good, the joy, that it may bring Eternity shall tell.
-- G. W. Langford: Speak gently.
-
TSW!
Its not doublespeak, its contextual readjustment! I believe that relgion is the belief in future life and in God. I don't believe in either. I don't believe in God as I don't believe in Mother Goose.
--Clarence Darrow, American lawyer
-
I second this. The main difference between the ones on here who are open-minded about the issue and those who can't reach beyond the four-letter words as they trash programs and parents seems to be education. Whether they lack any authentic experience or a degree, the one defining characteristic seems to be ignorance. Thanks for the breath of fresh air. "
Ok, this is just too good to pass up.
Hey, ProudGrad - there's a whole lotta fuckin' swearin' going on at the universities. There's a whole lotta fucking and drinking going on too! :grin:
At any rate... although it's none of your fucking business, here's my defining characteristic (http://http://home.ripway.com/2005-12/547332/Degree.jpg)
You can address me as Ms. Handbasket, Esquire, since I was also accepted to law school, but wasn't able to attend... and I'll address you as Doctor Proudgrad, okay?
-
In my experience, people who brag about their IQ scores, generally are pretty stupid.
-
On 2005-12-11 06:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"In my experience, people who brag about their IQ scores, generally are pretty stupid."
In my experience, people who resort to ad-hominem attacks in light of having what they said discredited, disproven, and dismissed are pathetic.First management had plans and then strategic plans. Now we have vision, and we're only one small step from hallucination.
-- Ansley Throckmorton upon assuming the presidency of Bangor Theological Seminary in Bangor, Main per Information World 8-4-`97
-
In my experience, people who resort to ad-hominem attacks in light of having what they said discredited, disproven, and dismissed are pathetic."
::mecry:: Thanks for hurting my feelings and ruining my day. :cry:
-
On 2005-12-11 03:01:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"Okay 146 (you can call me 148) Lets assume you are open minded (as you say) and the rest of us are closed minded. Well closed minded people, like ourselves, cant accept or imagine any other position except the one we hold, so we need data or a strong argument to persuade or dissuade us. So may I put it out it to you? What supportive (non-empirical) data do you have to support your views? What percentage of kids would benefit by not going to an RTC? Are kids safer attending a public school or an RTC? Are kids better off running away vs going to an RTC? What is your data source and population, sample sizes?
I think science will be good for you, at first glance you dont seem to do well interfacing with people (I mean that sincerely), my brother is like that, he does well researching alone or with a small peer group.
Anyway, I have answered your question using Empirical data, you have rejected it. Lets see your numbers!!
First off, considering my IQ of 146 is roughly 1:500, I severely doubt thats yours. If youre trying to start a rivalry or to make me get mad, its not going to work. Theres just too few people smarter than me on this planet (about .2% of the population :wink:) to make me think one of them somehow got suckered into that brainwashy bullshit... especially becuase they're too smart to be tricked by it.
Anyway, youre the one saying a RTC works.
1. Wheres the evidence of a RTC working thats not CLEARLY BIASED?
2. WHAT does a RTC do?
3. HOW does it do that?
4. WHAT answer to empirical data? You havent showed any! Wheres all the information and facts and statistics? All I've seen is WWASP's nonverified, nonverifiable, biased and non-reviwed "statistics", on the side of SUPPORTING their claims, anyway.
Lesse, why do I have the views I do?
1. A large group of people, who are isolated from eachother by time, and distance, totally out of contact, are all accusing the industry of the same things, Their stories all match up. If they were lying, then 25+ years and two generations coudlnt all keep the same lie spread out over the entire USA and numbering in the hundreds of thousands, could they? NO. Thats statistically impossible. Also, each INDIVIDUAL has kept their story straight through the years!
2. The NIMH says the entire model of the program (to the best that I understand them to be, as people such as yourself still cant state what a RTC does, or how it does it, at all) based on humiliation, coersion, etc is ineffective, does not reduce redicivism, and can be damaging in and of itself. Theyre a scentific establishment, you are someone who doesnt even post with an anonymous identity. I havent been able to find the NIMH link, however http://pcs.la.psu.edu/bootcamp2000/Boot ... 0Study.htm (http://pcs.la.psu.edu/bootcamp2000/Boot%20Camp%20Recidivism%20Study.htm) Pennsylvania did a study on their OWN bootcamps and found that it didnt positively effect recidivism.
"This study examined whether offenders who graduate from Pennsylvania's Motivational Boot Camp Program are less likely to recidivate than offenders who are released from prison. Overall, our analysis indicates that, when we control for the influence of other variables, there is no significant difference between the two groups with respect to recidivism. Rather, offenders who are young, unemployed, commit property offenses, are from rural areas, and have longer maximum sentences are more likely to recidivate regardless of whether they go to Boot Camp or prison.
We found employment status to be the best predictor of recidivism. Those offenders who are unemployed are almost three times as likely as those who are employed to commit a new crime or technical violation. Further, when using only new crime convictions as our measure of recidivism, we found unemployed offenders to be over twice as likely as employed offenders to be convicted of a new crime."
Ain't that a BITCH? Oh, btw, not a 4 letter word :lol: It seems getting the kid a JOB makes them less likely to commit a crime. HAR DE HAR HAR. If you'd LET THE KIDS GROW UP THEYD BE FINE!
3. The LGATs employed by the programs have been demonstrated to be little more than what is colloquially known as a "mind fuck", or a pathological effect from being forced into a psychological regression from physical and emotional stress. You know, no rest, humiliation, elimination control (bathroom breaks), not being well fed, coersion, etc. http://perso.wanadoo.fr/eldon.braun/awa ... hology.htm (http://perso.wanadoo.fr/eldon.braun/awareness/pathology.htm) <- look, a source!
So yeah. You got any proof? Any evidence?
The ONLY thing I see from your side are business owners defending their incomes, and parents who dont want to admit they were wrong for whatever reason, if not because they were unduly influenced by the LGATs... or, in laymans terms, brainwashed.Speak gently! 't is a little thing Dropp'd in the heart's deep well; The good, the joy, that it may bring Eternity shall tell.
-- G. W. Langford: Speak gently.
"
Sorry about the I.Q. status problem, you will get over it. I know it seems statistically that there are not many people above 146, but they are everywhere, believe me. As you get older it means very little people are looking at how well you produce or utilize what you have, not what you have. Anyway you must do more than what you provided us.
To base decisions on statements like "A large group of people" is not going to fly in industry. If you are doing research for a drug company for say a sleep medicine and they review board asks you what you findings are and you reply by say "A large group of people slept very well" Do you think you would get FDA approval? or a "Thank you niles we will promote you to team leader?". You need studies and scientific evidence not gut feels or he said she said.
You also referenced a study by the Pennsylvania Dutch on Boot camps. (Short term, to reduce criminal behavior). This model isnt even used anymore, the closest model today to this is SUWS of the Carolinas.
Then you referenced an "Awareness Study" from 1983 whos conclusion is still an argument. This is all that can be found?
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What I find interesting is, why aren't parents asking, no, demanding this data from the programs BEFORE they send their child?
Because they simply do not care. Provide me a better explanation please if you do not agree.
Program supporters love to come on to this board and ask for imperical evidence of every abuse claim made on this board. They ask this because it is impossible to produce, especially on THIS side of the fence. Sorry, but that argument doesn't fly. You should have done the research BEFORE you sent your kid to an abusive camp. Not when you are fighting about it afterwards. It doesn't work that way.
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1. IQ shit.... um, whatt there to get over? Im not hung up on anything, but apparently you "two" are. You also keep trying to piss me off over it... I do think the bagheads protesteth too much.
2. The same applies to you. The programs have the burden of proof to demonstrate their effectiveness. Ive yet to see it.
2a. What statement is based on "a large group of people", exactly? Is this one of those tricks wehre I dont know what youre suggesting so I have to defend every possibility?
Furthermore, the fact that everyone who is accusing the programs of being abusive or ineffective all saying the same thing, with the circumstances that there are (seperated by thousands of miles and decades) does indicate its extremely unlikely that theyre lying. Because there is as of yet no conclusive study undertaken about it, and because LGATs do, infact, unduly influence their participants, this is DEFINITELY compelling enough to arouse suspicion and warrant further investigation. Sadly, that has nfot been undertaken yet.
Also, "a large group of people" is the amount you use when you do a study or collect data. Should you use a small group? :rofl:
You take a suitably large group and you collect data (say, for a sleeping pill) and see how many of that group have improved sleep, how many have no effect, and how many have bad side effects to determinte its efficacy.
The programs have not done that. No such data exists specifically about programs accomplishing this. However, their analogue, bootcamps, have no change in recidivism. I seriously doubt that programs are any different - especially in light of the lack of hard evidence about them.
3. Uhhh, what? Bootcamps aren't used anymore? They were on maury recently. Bootcamps havent gone anywhere, but pennsylvania doesnt do it. PS, it was done by the state of pennsylvania, not the 'pennsylvania dutch' :roll: Furthermore it was the best ANALOGUE to a program I could find, because NO STUDIES HAVE BEEN DONE ON PROGRAMS! Programs are based on coersion, humiliation, and control, so are bootcamps. There isnt forced exercise in a bootcamp like setting in most programs, but that doesnt change the crux of what it is.
4. No, its not all that can be found, and most of the time you dont need to have some huge list of sources. Sir Isaac Newton came up with his theory of gravity nearly 500 years ago... does that mean it doesnt work anymore? A lot of geometry was developed by the greeks and the phythagoreans! Thats in the THOUSANDS.
Nice try, but no banana. Youve still failed to address the fact that
a. The burden of proof rests with you and the programs. Wheres the beef?
b. My IQ doesnt have anything to do with this. Continued ad-hominem attacks only discredit you. Also, four is a four letter word. Go get offended, ok?
c. The large group of people is all we have to go by, and its also the basis of any scientific study. You want your sample group to be as large as possible... unless youd rather hand-pick a small group and then spout off bullshit based on that :wink:
You cant discredit thousands and thousands of people, spread out by decades and thousands of miles, all telling the same story. Theyre not lying. Its not possible for them to be lying without a rather massive conspiracy, which is 1. unlikely 2. extremely ineffective so far, Id think that if there were some conspiracy afoot it would have been more effective by now!
You also cant discredit the study of LGATs because there is only one of them or its from the 1980 - you can discredit it if you have evidence to the contrary! Do you? Also, whether I have one, or one thousand studies, its all the same thing.
Futhermore, you have yet to explain what a program does, or how it does it. Ive said this HOW many times now?
Go back to that ivy leage university, you clearly need to.Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.
-- Albert Einstein
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My IQ is 164, does this mean I can post?
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Sure does. Why not contribute something instead of trying to hijack the topic and redirect it to a IQ battle and ignore the topic at hand? :tup:
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base.
-- Dave Barry
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I just sunk your battleship.
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On 2005-12-11 06:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I just sunk your battleship."
This is coming from the guy in the dinghy :roll:
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Oh yeah? Well I got a pink elephant right here whose got a lot to say to you. His name is "Burden of proof" and "Thousands of people claiming the same thing over two decades from all over the country" :roll:
P.S. watch out for nuclear subarines.Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
--Denis Diderot, French encyclopedist
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::mecry::
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On 2005-12-11 06:59:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"Oh yeah? Well I got a pink elephant right here whose got a lot to say to you. His name is "Burden of proof" and "Thousands of people claiming the same thing over two decades from all over the country" :roll:
P.S. watch out for nuclear subarines.Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
--Denis Diderot, French encyclopedist
"
Who is it you think I am? I have nothing to prove here...there are many bagheads.
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Right, now how the hell do I tell you apart from anyone else? :roll:
You can get a name and mantain anonymity.If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be -- a Christian.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
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On 2005-12-11 06:44:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"1. IQ shit.... um, whatt there to get over? Im not hung up on anything, but apparently you "two" are. You also keep trying to piss me off over it... I do think the bagheads protesteth too much.
2. The same applies to you. The programs have the burden of proof to demonstrate their effectiveness. Ive yet to see it.
2a. What statement is based on "a large group of people", exactly? Is this one of those tricks wehre I dont know what youre suggesting so I have to defend every possibility?
Furthermore, the fact that everyone who is accusing the programs of being abusive or ineffective all saying the same thing, with the circumstances that there are (seperated by thousands of miles and decades) does indicate its extremely unlikely that theyre lying. Because there is as of yet no conclusive study undertaken about it, and because LGATs do, infact, unduly influence their participants, this is DEFINITELY compelling enough to arouse suspicion and warrant further investigation. Sadly, that has nfot been undertaken yet.
Also, "a large group of people" is the amount you use when you do a study or collect data. Should you use a small group? :rofl:
You take a suitably large group and you collect data (say, for a sleeping pill) and see how many of that group have improved sleep, how many have no effect, and how many have bad side effects to determinte its efficacy.
The programs have not done that. No such data exists specifically about programs accomplishing this. However, their analogue, bootcamps, have no change in recidivism. I seriously doubt that programs are any different - especially in light of the lack of hard evidence about them.
3. Uhhh, what? Bootcamps aren't used anymore? They were on maury recently. Bootcamps havent gone anywhere, but pennsylvania doesnt do it. PS, it was done by the state of pennsylvania, not the 'pennsylvania dutch' :roll: Furthermore it was the best ANALOGUE to a program I could find, because NO STUDIES HAVE BEEN DONE ON PROGRAMS! Programs are based on coersion, humiliation, and control, so are bootcamps. There isnt forced exercise in a bootcamp like setting in most programs, but that doesnt change the crux of what it is.
4. No, its not all that can be found, and most of the time you dont need to have some huge list of sources. Sir Isaac Newton came up with his theory of gravity nearly 500 years ago... does that mean it doesnt work anymore? A lot of geometry was developed by the greeks and the phythagoreans! Thats in the THOUSANDS.
Nice try, but no banana. Youve still failed to address the fact that
a. The burden of proof rests with you and the programs. Wheres the beef?
b. My IQ doesnt have anything to do with this. Continued ad-hominem attacks only discredit you. Also, four is a four letter word. Go get offended, ok?
c. The large group of people is all we have to go by, and its also the basis of any scientific study. You want your sample group to be as large as possible... unless youd rather hand-pick a small group and then spout off bullshit based on that :wink:
You cant discredit thousands and thousands of people, spread out by decades and thousands of miles, all telling the same story. Theyre not lying. Its not possible for them to be lying without a rather massive conspiracy, which is 1. unlikely 2. extremely ineffective so far, Id think that if there were some conspiracy afoot it would have been more effective by now!
You also cant discredit the study of LGATs because there is only one of them or its from the 1980 - you can discredit it if you have evidence to the contrary! Do you? Also, whether I have one, or one thousand studies, its all the same thing.
Futhermore, you have yet to explain what a program does, or how it does it. Ive said this HOW many times now?
Go back to that ivy leage university, you clearly need to.Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.
-- Albert Einstein
"
Okay lets back up, You cant plead your case based on a "Large Group of People" You need a definitive number. If you say "Large Group" one guy may say "Uhm, I think he means 12 million" the guy sitting next to him may think "Uhm, probably talking about more than 5 people, because a small group at work is considered 4 people". That is a big discrepancy right there and you havent even started talking yet! So you see empirical data doesnt work here and isnt typically accepted.
I personally know many people who have benefited from some of the programs, they work it is a fact. I am sure you have met many people who have done poorly and I buy that. But short of a full study our opinions are based on who we have listened to and talked to. My sample was "Large".
First: What a program does depends on what the child needs. Some Children need to be removed from their home environment so they can grow, others need a safe place to advance their academics, others need to be in a place where they can grow with their peers, on and on.
Your second question is "How is this done?" Depends on the model, each school works to a different model. Some use behavior mod as a primary, others isolation from drugs or bad habits, others use wilderness as a piece to give the child a sense accomplishment, some are trained in rescue operations, but personally I think they work because they are removed from an unhealthy pattern and placed in a place where they can be who they want to be.
Just as an added note: I don?t see why you see a need to wear your I.Q. on your lapel. I wouldn?t mention this on a job interview, it can be a red flag. Just a little advice.
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Just an interjection, and no one knows for sure how the study would come out....but it's more than using a LARGE group of people for a study. You have to use a RANDOM group of people, otherwise, you have BIAS and it is then not scientifically valid.
It could very well be that the program works for a certain kind of person and not well at all for another. I think there are programs that are shoddy and abusive to anyone but there are some, the so-called "better" ones, and they might prove to be very effective for some. Just like the military is the perfect place for some people and an abusive nightmare come true for others.
Frankly, there seems to be two large groups on opposite sides here and that is very telling. If anyone is ACTUALLY interested in the results of such a study, you need to start opening your eyes to what the real hypothesis would look like. Because if you're positing that "all programs are bad/abusive/torment/ineffective, etc, you may be wrong. Likewise if your theory is that all people experience it the same and there's just something "wrong" with people who don't.
I have a hunch that if you looked at the better programs, you would find that people who scored high on a personal autonomy test would rate the program as torturous and abusive. These are the things that are important to look at. Another important study would be the one that's been mentioned in this forum and others many times, and that is a longitudinal study of recidivism in program graduates/dropouts.
My suggestion, get off the damn forum and find out how to do research, write a grant proposal and get busy. If you want the job done right, do it yourself! Action is always the best policy.
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On 2005-12-11 09:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Just an interjection, and no one knows for sure how the study would come out....but it's more than using a LARGE group of people for a study. You have to use a RANDOM group of people, otherwise, you have BIAS and it is then not scientifically valid.
It could very well be that the program works for a certain kind of person and not well at all for another. I think there are programs that are shoddy and abusive to anyone but there are some, the so-called "better" ones, and they might prove to be very effective for some. Just like the military is the perfect place for some people and an abusive nightmare come true for others.
Frankly, there seems to be two large groups on opposite sides here and that is very telling. If anyone is ACTUALLY interested in the results of such a study, you need to start opening your eyes to what the real hypothesis would look like. Because if you're positing that "all programs are bad/abusive/torment/ineffective, etc, you may be wrong. Likewise if your theory is that all people experience it the same and there's just something "wrong" with people who don't.
I have a hunch that if you looked at the better programs, you would find that people who scored high on a personal autonomy test would rate the program as torturous and abusive. These are the things that are important to look at. Another important study would be the one that's been mentioned in this forum and others many times, and that is a longitudinal study of recidivism in program graduates/dropouts.
My suggestion, get off the damn forum and find out how to do research, write a grant proposal and get busy. If you want the job done right, do it yourself! Action is always the best policy."
I agree and that was my point a "Large group" doesn?t mean anything, its none comparative. I personally know a few people who went to and sent kids to RTC and they did fine. Does that mean all RTCs are good , not at all. But as I read some posts on this forum, if a person gets abused or dies or has a bad experience then all RTCs are no good and my response has been we cant make that conclusion based on a few occurrences. We need to compare it to other facilities, public schools, private schools etc. in order to make those assumptions. Absolutes have no place in forming conclusions, like all kids are bad, all parents are bad, all schools are bad etc. but there seems to be more of this thinking than not.
Time solving the individual problems would be better spent.
-
Okay lets back up, You cant plead your case based on a "Large Group of People" You need a definitive number. If you say "Large Group" one guy may say "Uhm, I think he means 12 million" the guy sitting next to him may think "Uhm, probably talking about more than 5 people, because a small group at work is considered 4 people". That is a big discrepancy right there and you havent even started talking yet! So you see empirical data doesnt work here and isnt typically accepted.
I personally know many people who have benefited from some of the programs, they work it is a fact. I am sure you have met many people who have done poorly and I buy that. But short of a full study our opinions are based on who we have listened to and talked to. My sample was "Large".
First: What a program does depends on what the child needs. Some Children need to be removed from their home environment so they can grow, others need a safe place to advance their academics, others need to be in a place where they can grow with their peers, on and on.
Your second question is "How is this done?" Depends on the model, each school works to a different model. Some use behavior mod as a primary, others isolation from drugs or bad habits, others use wilderness as a piece to give the child a sense accomplishment, some are trained in rescue operations, but personally I think they work because they are removed from an unhealthy pattern and placed in a place where they can be who they want to be.
Just as an added note: I don?t see why you see a need to wear your I.Q. on your lapel. I wouldn?t mention this on a job interview, it can be a red flag. Just a little advice.
Ok, again, the IQ thing was because of the implication that Im uneducated or unintelligent. Why do YOU continue to bring that up, and then say Im the one wearing it on my lapel?
Ok, all that nonsense about a large group vs a random group... made no sense. You need a large population to work with, if its too small it might throw the numbers off. I do get your point about randomly selected people (a double blind would be ideal as well) but my point stands.
Ive talked to a LARGE group of people myself. There is no definitive study done on the programs themselves. Also, something that works via LGATs will definitely INFLUENCE those people who participate in them. Asking someone whose brainwashed isnt a good way to get a straight answer. There has to be a scientific study done, and it has to somehow get rid of the influence of LGATs and the other psychological nonsense the children and parents have placed upon them.
Now, you talk about what they do depends on the child. Fair enough, but IVe yet to get a straight answer of that from the parent of a child currently in a program. Should they not know that?
Also, HOW do they advance academics, or "grow" out of the "home environment", or "grow with their peers"? As far as I am aware MANY programs have the children teach themselves out of a book, and RE TAKE tests until they score at least a B.
Furthemore, about "how its done", again, fair that it should depend on the model, but Ive asked people who should know specifics and they werent able to give me a definitive answer.
What is "Behavior mod"?
Isolation form drugs or "Bad habits" seems straightforward, as you cant go drink or smoke up in a program, but how do you isolate a child from their 'had babits'?
Also, "using wilderness to give the child a sense of accomplishment" - you mean setting up circumstances the child has no choice but to endure and then say "hey see, you could do it!" at the end? Making them do shit and then saying YOU DID IT isnt really therapy. So, suffering and hardship, and if they survive they accomplished? Thats what "Bratcamp" sure looked like - and as a psychological carrier wave to break them down "breakthough :roll:".
Also, training in rescue operations? HOW is that therapy? More "sense of accomplishment" schtick? Or is it just a variant of the wilderness bullshit except they have to go rescue someone so the emotions run even higher for more regression?
personally I think they work because they are removed from an unhealthy pattern and placed in a place where they can be who they want to be.
Uh, everyone Ive spoken to said they cant be who they want to be, they have to do as they are told. If these places were warm embraces where they were free to develop, grow, and all the other bullshit happy-feel-good warm-fuzzy verbs and be free of worry, stress, and fear I wouldnt be having this arguement with you right now.
Theyre coersive, demand total obedience, and punish serverely. How are they free to do anything?
So yeah, you managed to clarify the question but you havent begun to answer. However, bratcamp + the testimony of people who have been through wilderness camps have given me an idea of what the "wilderness" experience is like. Physical stress that creates psychological stress, leading to a regression. HMMM. Whats that sound like
Oh, yeah, bootcamp!It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat
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On 2005-12-11 09:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Just an interjection, and no one knows for sure how the study would come out....but it's more than using a LARGE group of people for a study. You have to use a RANDOM group of people, otherwise, you have BIAS and it is then not scientifically valid.
It could very well be that the program works for a certain kind of person and not well at all for another. I think there are programs that are shoddy and abusive to anyone but there are some, the so-called "better" ones, and they might prove to be very effective for some. Just like the military is the perfect place for some people and an abusive nightmare come true for others.
Frankly, there seems to be two large groups on opposite sides here and that is very telling. If anyone is ACTUALLY interested in the results of such a study, you need to start opening your eyes to what the real hypothesis would look like. Because if you're positing that "all programs are bad/abusive/torment/ineffective, etc, you may be wrong. Likewise if your theory is that all people experience it the same and there's just something "wrong" with people who don't.
I have a hunch that if you looked at the better programs, you would find that people who scored high on a personal autonomy test would rate the program as torturous and abusive. These are the things that are important to look at. Another important study would be the one that's been mentioned in this forum and others many times, and that is a longitudinal study of recidivism in program graduates/dropouts.
My suggestion, get off the damn forum and find out how to do research, write a grant proposal and get busy. If you want the job done right, do it yourself! Action is always the best policy."
Right.... Im not even a grad student and you want me to undertake a massive study and research, in secretive insular environments thats known to be manipulative to those in it?
Id have to call up people who are used to dealing with cults, a few spooks, and a lot of old fashioned police investigators, and a few accountants to go through financial records. AND Id need parents to be willing to play along with edcons, anda few kids willing to go into a program (with and without problems) and the ethical problems with... sending a kid somewhere reputed to be abusive.
ALSO, its impossible to get hard data from a place thats so secretive and insular. Id have to state outright the rules are going to be bent for this kid, or hide a bug on them, or pull them out after x days. Or, show up with their parents and demand to talk to the kid.
The logistics of this would be massive, and if they knew what was up (they would) theyd pull a dog and pony show when Im around if theyre abusive.
I never said these places were ran by stupid people, anon. Also, simply polling of those who went through the programs would be difficult to undertake.
One thing I WOULD be willing to do is to try to get a kid referred who has no real problems (and get the child evaluated by a psychologist first, and get a signed appadavit from the psychologist to prove the kid is ok) and see if hed be taken anyway. :wink: The Christian faith from the beginning, is sacrifice: the sacrifice of all freedom, all pride, all self-confidence of spirit; it is at the same time subjection, a self-derision, and self-mutilation.
--Freidrich Nietzsche, German philosopher
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I agree and that was my point a "Large group" doesn?t mean anything, its none comparative. I personally know a few people who went to and sent kids to RTC and they did fine. Does that mean all RTCs are good , not at all. But as I read some posts on this forum, if a person gets abused or dies or has a bad experience then all RTCs are no good and my response has been we cant make that conclusion based on a few occurrences. We need to compare it to other facilities, public schools, private schools etc. in order to make those assumptions. Absolutes have no place in forming conclusions, like all kids are bad, all parents are bad, all schools are bad etc. but there seems to be more of this thinking than not.
Time solving the individual problems would be better spent.
The problem is how hard it is to get the facts out of these places. Theyre too secretive and too insular. Theres no way to enforce anything and no way to see whats up as of yet, as everyone is told the children will lie and make up bad things to get out, and communication is cut off in the first place!
Youd need to put in people posing as kids, or hide wires, or bug the facilities to see whats going on IN them.
The only thing that would be feasable without the fucking CIA getting involved (as far as I know) would be finding a brave kid and putting him or her in, or seeing if edcons would put a good kid in the program (that is KNOWN to not have any issues) but not actually doing so, or simply talking to those who have been through the programs.
My point with how many people are saying bad things happened, and how over the years and spread out through all that distance in all those different programs, they're ALL saying the same thing. They're NOT lying if what they have to say all matches up!!! Thats very compelling evidence for suspicion.
The facilities are too closed up, isolated, and insular. Theres no way to find out whats going on IN them. The only way you can find out without breaking "THE RULES" is to talk to those who have been there, or resort to bugging, espionage, etc.
Surely you dont suggest I start up a program spy ring :rofl: The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor
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On 2005-12-11 10:01:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"Okay lets back up, You cant plead your case based on a "Large Group of People" You need a definitive number. If you say "Large Group" one guy may say "Uhm, I think he means 12 million" the guy sitting next to him may think "Uhm, probably talking about more than 5 people, because a small group at work is considered 4 people". That is a big discrepancy right there and you havent even started talking yet! So you see empirical data doesnt work here and isnt typically accepted.
I personally know many people who have benefited from some of the programs, they work it is a fact. I am sure you have met many people who have done poorly and I buy that. But short of a full study our opinions are based on who we have listened to and talked to. My sample was "Large".
First: What a program does depends on what the child needs. Some Children need to be removed from their home environment so they can grow, others need a safe place to advance their academics, others need to be in a place where they can grow with their peers, on and on.
Your second question is "How is this done?" Depends on the model, each school works to a different model. Some use behavior mod as a primary, others isolation from drugs or bad habits, others use wilderness as a piece to give the child a sense accomplishment, some are trained in rescue operations, but personally I think they work because they are removed from an unhealthy pattern and placed in a place where they can be who they want to be.
Just as an added note: I don?t see why you see a need to wear your I.Q. on your lapel. I wouldn?t mention this on a job interview, it can be a red flag. Just a little advice.
Ok, again, the IQ thing was because of the implication that Im uneducated or unintelligent. Why do YOU continue to bring that up, and then say Im the one wearing it on my lapel?
Ok, all that nonsense about a large group vs a random group... made no sense. You need a large population to work with, if its too small it might throw the numbers off. I do get your point about randomly selected people (a double blind would be ideal as well) but my point stands.
Ive talked to a LARGE group of people myself. There is no definitive study done on the programs themselves. Also, something that works via LGATs will definitely INFLUENCE those people who participate in them. Asking someone whose brainwashed isnt a good way to get a straight answer. There has to be a scientific study done, and it has to somehow get rid of the influence of LGATs and the other psychological nonsense the children and parents have placed upon them.
Now, you talk about what they do depends on the child. Fair enough, but IVe yet to get a straight answer of that from the parent of a child currently in a program. Should they not know that?
Also, HOW do they advance academics, or "grow" out of the "home environment", or "grow with their peers"? As far as I am aware MANY programs have the children teach themselves out of a book, and RE TAKE tests until they score at least a B.
Furthemore, about "how its done", again, fair that it should depend on the model, but Ive asked people who should know specifics and they werent able to give me a definitive answer.
What is "Behavior mod"?
Isolation form drugs or "Bad habits" seems straightforward, as you cant go drink or smoke up in a program, but how do you isolate a child from their 'had babits'?
Also, "using wilderness to give the child a sense of accomplishment" - you mean setting up circumstances the child has no choice but to endure and then say "hey see, you could do it!" at the end? Making them do shit and then saying YOU DID IT isnt really therapy. So, suffering and hardship, and if they survive they accomplished? Thats what "Bratcamp" sure looked like - and as a psychological carrier wave to break them down "breakthough :roll:".
Also, training in rescue operations? HOW is that therapy? More "sense of accomplishment" schtick? Or is it just a variant of the wilderness bullshit except they have to go rescue someone so the emotions run even higher for more regression?
personally I think they work because they are removed from an unhealthy pattern and placed in a place where they can be who they want to be.
Uh, everyone Ive spoken to said they cant be who they want to be, they have to do as they are told. If these places were warm embraces where they were free to develop, grow, and all the other bullshit happy-feel-good warm-fuzzy verbs and be free of worry, stress, and fear I wouldnt be having this arguement with you right now.
Theyre coersive, demand total obedience, and punish serverely. How are they free to do anything?
So yeah, you managed to clarify the question but you havent begun to answer. However, bratcamp + the testimony of people who have been through wilderness camps have given me an idea of what the "wilderness" experience is like. Physical stress that creates psychological stress, leading to a regression. HMMM. Whats that sound like
Oh, yeah, bootcamp!It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat
"
[/quote****Theyre coersive, demand total obedience, and punish serverely. How are they free to do anything?***** Just a sample of lumping all schools into one box, just cant do it.
90% of what you say I didnt allude to, no talk of therapy, physical stress,you seem to be cutting and pasting from different posts, didnt relate to what I was saying, should go bake and reread.
So looks like a stale mate. I cant accept your reasoning/study for not accepting RTC and what they do and you cant accept my answers on why I think they work and what they do, and thats fair. I think it leads to acceptable conclusion that we both cant make informed conclusions based on the information we have. So like you mention in an earlier post that "no studies have been done" so it is all touchy feely and we base our conclusions on who we have spoken to.
This type of argument is what prompts studies, so dont be too frustrated (I am not), this may bare fruit.
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On 2005-12-11 10:11:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"I agree and that was my point a "Large group" doesn?t mean anything, its none comparative. I personally know a few people who went to and sent kids to RTC and they did fine. Does that mean all RTCs are good , not at all. But as I read some posts on this forum, if a person gets abused or dies or has a bad experience then all RTCs are no good and my response has been we cant make that conclusion based on a few occurrences. We need to compare it to other facilities, public schools, private schools etc. in order to make those assumptions. Absolutes have no place in forming conclusions, like all kids are bad, all parents are bad, all schools are bad etc. but there seems to be more of this thinking than not.
Time solving the individual problems would be better spent.
The problem is how hard it is to get the facts out of these places. Theyre too secretive and too insular. Theres no way to enforce anything and no way to see whats up as of yet, as everyone is told the children will lie and make up bad things to get out, and communication is cut off in the first place!
Youd need to put in people posing as kids, or hide wires, or bug the facilities to see whats going on IN them.
The only thing that would be feasable without the fucking CIA getting involved (as far as I know) would be finding a brave kid and putting him or her in, or seeing if edcons would put a good kid in the program (that is KNOWN to not have any issues) but not actually doing so, or simply talking to those who have been through the programs.
My point with how many people are saying bad things happened, and how over the years and spread out through all that distance in all those different programs, they're ALL saying the same thing. They're NOT lying if what they have to say all matches up!!! Thats very compelling evidence for suspicion.
The facilities are too closed up, isolated, and insular. Theres no way to find out whats going on IN them. The only way you can find out without breaking "THE RULES" is to talk to those who have been there, or resort to bugging, espionage, etc.
Surely you dont suggest I start up a program spy ring :rofl: The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor
"
Yes but you could make the same argument about anything, A guy said he was humiliated by his college professor at Yale 30 years ago and a few guys say the same thing happened to him last year. Should we all conclude that since this happened over a period of several decades we can fill in the gap and assume Yale is abusive? I am sure there are people who have attended Yale that had a great experience and moved on to a successful life. Who is right? Ans: I depends on who we talk to, then we form an opinion
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You are comparing Yale to programs? MY GOD- you obviously have never been to one. :roll: Some of you protrolls are unbeliveable. Think before you type....
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Yes but you could make the same argument about anything, A guy said he was humiliated by his college professor at Yale 30 years ago and a few guys say the same thing happened to him last year. Should we all conclude that since this happened over a period of several decades we can fill in the gap and assume Yale is abusive? I am sure there are people who have attended Yale that had a great experience and moved on to a successful life. Who is right? Ans: I depends on who we talk to, then we form an opinion
Uhhh... did we ever say that? No.
What DID we say? Lots and lots of people are all saying the same thing about the same places that dont know eachother, and have said it over the course of several years. Not ONE person ONE time!
Heeeeres your sign.
P.S. - Dont break the quote tags.You should be allowed to do whatever you want with your own person and property, as long as you don't physically harm the person or property of a nonconsenting other.
Peter McWilliams - Ain't Nobody's Business If I Do
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On 2005-12-11 10:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You are comparing Yale to programs? MY GOD- you obviously have never been to one. :roll: Some of you protrolls are unbeliveable. Think before you type...."
Nobody compared Yale to Programs, we were talking about weighing opinions.
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On 2005-12-11 10:46:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"Yes but you could make the same argument about anything, A guy said he was humiliated by his college professor at Yale 30 years ago and a few guys say the same thing happened to him last year. Should we all conclude that since this happened over a period of several decades we can fill in the gap and assume Yale is abusive? I am sure there are people who have attended Yale that had a great experience and moved on to a successful life. Who is right? Ans: I depends on who we talk to, then we form an opinion
Uhhh... did we ever say that? No.
What DID we say? Lots and lots of people are all saying the same thing about the same places that dont know eachother, and have said it over the course of several years. Not ONE person ONE time!
Heeeeres your sign.
P.S. - Dont break the quote tags.You should be allowed to do whatever you want with your own person and property, as long as you don't physically harm the person or property of a nonconsenting other.
Peter McWilliams - Ain't Nobody's Business If I Do
"
So, okay , we have gone full circle. We are back to talking about "many" people, or "lots" of people on both sides.
Thanks, I hate when I do that with the quote
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On 2005-12-11 10:11:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"I agree and that was my point a "Large group" doesn?t mean anything, its none comparative. I personally know a few people who went to and sent kids to RTC and they did fine. Does that mean all RTCs are good , not at all. But as I read some posts on this forum, if a person gets abused or dies or has a bad experience then all RTCs are no good and my response has been we cant make that conclusion based on a few occurrences. We need to compare it to other facilities, public schools, private schools etc. in order to make those assumptions. Absolutes have no place in forming conclusions, like all kids are bad, all parents are bad, all schools are bad etc. but there seems to be more of this thinking than not.
Time solving the individual problems would be better spent.
The problem is how hard it is to get the facts out of these places. Theyre too secretive and too insular. Theres no way to enforce anything and no way to see whats up as of yet, as everyone is told the children will lie and make up bad things to get out, and communication is cut off in the first place!
Youd need to put in people posing as kids, or hide wires, or bug the facilities to see whats going on IN them.
The only thing that would be feasable without the fucking CIA getting involved (as far as I know) would be finding a brave kid and putting him or her in, or seeing if edcons would put a good kid in the program (that is KNOWN to not have any issues) but not actually doing so, or simply talking to those who have been through the programs.
My point with how many people are saying bad things happened, and how over the years and spread out through all that distance in all those different programs, they're ALL saying the same thing. They're NOT lying if what they have to say all matches up!!! Thats very compelling evidence for suspicion.
The facilities are too closed up, isolated, and insular. Theres no way to find out whats going on IN them. The only way you can find out without breaking "THE RULES" is to talk to those who have been there, or resort to bugging, espionage, etc.
Surely you dont suggest I start up a program spy ring ::eek3::
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http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 150#136161 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=11926&forum=9&start=150#136161)
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On 2005-12-12 08:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-12-11 10:11:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"I agree and that was my point a "Large group" doesn?t mean anything, its none comparative. I personally know a few people who went to and sent kids to RTC and they did fine. Does that mean all RTCs are good , not at all. But as I read some posts on this forum, if a person gets abused or dies or has a bad experience then all RTCs are no good and my response has been we cant make that conclusion based on a few occurrences. We need to compare it to other facilities, public schools, private schools etc. in order to make those assumptions. Absolutes have no place in forming conclusions, like all kids are bad, all parents are bad, all schools are bad etc. but there seems to be more of this thinking than not.
Time solving the individual problems would be better spent.
The problem is how hard it is to get the facts out of these places. Theyre too secretive and too insular. Theres no way to enforce anything and no way to see whats up as of yet, as everyone is told the children will lie and make up bad things to get out, and communication is cut off in the first place!
Youd need to put in people posing as kids, or hide wires, or bug the facilities to see whats going on IN them.
The only thing that would be feasable without the fucking CIA getting involved (as far as I know) would be finding a brave kid and putting him or her in, or seeing if edcons would put a good kid in the program (that is KNOWN to not have any issues) but not actually doing so, or simply talking to those who have been through the programs.
My point with how many people are saying bad things happened, and how over the years and spread out through all that distance in all those different programs, they're ALL saying the same thing. They're NOT lying if what they have to say all matches up!!! Thats very compelling evidence for suspicion.
The facilities are too closed up, isolated, and insular. Theres no way to find out whats going on IN them. The only way you can find out without breaking "THE RULES" is to talk to those who have been there, or resort to bugging, espionage, etc.
Surely you dont suggest I start up a program spy ring ::eek3::
"
Now... why did you have to go and perpetrate an ad hominem attack like that?
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I am sure you have met many people who have done poorly and I buy that. But short of a full study our opinions are based on who we have listened to and talked to. My sample was "Large".
Where can I see this sample? Where is the undisputable proof that the program works? It does'nt exist. The majority of the students I was in wwasp facilities with did relapse, some into darker and even heavier places than they were previous to their incarceration. Some have rebounded and straightened out while others continue on in their lifestyle. There is no conclusive evidence of the wwasp ideologies being effective. I believe that of those who do leave the program and are " successful" are by products of maturing and growing up. This phenomenon occurred long before wwasp existed however they know that they can cash in on it and do so. In fact if you do a long term survey I'm fairly certain that most 5yr plus graduates will not be supporters of the program, they will simply try to repress all memories of it. I can't speak for all grads but I have noticed this as a reoccurring trend amongst the other "students" I have come in contact with post-program.
Others never get a chance to relapse though isn't that right proudgrad? See proudgrad went from one system of mind control where you do what you are told to another one after the program he immersed himself in religion so as to avoid ever thinking for himself. I guess it's just different strokes for different folks.
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On 2005-12-12 11:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
I am sure you have met many people who have done poorly and I buy that. But short of a full study our opinions are based on who we have listened to and talked to. My sample was "Large".
Where can I see this sample? Where is the undisputable proof that the program works? It does'nt exist. The majority of the students I was in wwasp facilities with did relapse, some into darker and even heavier places than they were previous to their incarceration. Some have rebounded and straightened out while others continue on in their lifestyle. There is no conclusive evidence of the wwasp ideologies being effective. I believe that of those who do leave the program and are " successful" are by products of maturing and growing up. This phenomenon occurred long before wwasp existed however they know that they can cash in on it and do so. In fact if you do a long term survey I'm fairly certain that most 5yr plus graduates will not be supporters of the program, they will simply try to repress all memories of it. I can't speak for all grads but I have noticed this as a reoccurring trend amongst the other "students" I have come in contact with post-program.
Others never get a chance to relapse though isn't that right proudgrad? See proudgrad went from one system of mind control where you do what you are told to another one after the program he immersed himself in religion so as to avoid ever thinking for himself. I guess it's just different strokes for different folks."
I cant speak to WWASP programs, but I know of many graduates and parents who did well in the programs they went to. Not proclaiming all did well or all faired poorly. As you stated and heared before as some of these graduates reach the 5 year mark, may start to realize the programs helped them more than they originally thought. I dont know this to be true, about the 5 year thing, but I heard it somewhere here. So I guess what we concluded is there is no undisputed proof that all kids do poorly or all kids do well.
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My I.Q. is only 132 I suck!
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132 isnt that low, the vast majority is below you, plus it is only a measurement of you potential. Most highly successful people have slightly higher I.Q.s than the rest. The truly brilliant people are in research, mental institutions, or making $6/ hour because they can deal with other people.
Once you hit your 20's the I.Q. means nothing, one must start performing and that is what you are measured on for the rest of your life, so smile, you have a good start.
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Most companies would rather hire a kid who busted his butt studying for 4 years trying to maintain a B average than a straight A student who hardly studied. The B student will work twice as hard, come up with more ideas and will not be as likely to cave in when things go wrong because he has been living with obsticles his whole life, where The Straight A student who hardly studied may never have been challenged and may cave easily.
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On 2005-12-11 10:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You are comparing Yale to programs? MY GOD- you obviously have never been to one. :roll: Some of you protrolls are unbeliveable. Think before you type...."
No, Yale is where some kids go after they graduate the programs. Then there's Stanford, Georgetown, Gonzaga . . .
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No, Yale is where some kids go after they graduate the programs.
Got to finish polishing off that trophy kid, eh?! Freak.
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The education the kids recieve in this program is unaccredited you fool. I fell for that one too.
Yale, Harvard, Stanford.Indeappolis (sp) etc.
NO NO No ! You have been readign th glossy brochures or listening to the Teen help liars.
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On 2005-12-12 17:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
The education the kids recieve in this program is unaccredited you fool. I fell for that one too.
Yale, Harvard, Stanford.Indeappolis (sp) etc.
NO NO No ! You have been readign th glossy brochures or listening to the Teen help liars.
"
Depends on how well you do and when and how long you spend in the program. If you are in an unaccredited program during Senior year it could be a problem. If you do well on SATs it really doesnt matter. Accreditation is great to have but if they are not it doesnt mean you are not learning anything. If your desk are not a certain number of inchs apart or you dont have a copy of Tom Sawyer in the school library you cant get accredited. If you are in a program Freshman year and return to your own High school you may be a little ahead in some subjects and a little behind in others but your diploma will not be affected.
These are details you need to think thru prior to starting, unaccredited isnt the end of the world.
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doublespeak is all you are.
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On 2005-12-12 18:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-12-12 17:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
The education the kids recieve in this program is unaccredited you fool. I fell for that one too.
Yale, Harvard, Stanford.Indeappolis (sp) etc.
NO NO No ! You have been readign th glossy brochures or listening to the Teen help liars.
"
Depends on how well you do and when and how long you spend in the program. If you are in an unaccredited program during Senior year it could be a problem. If you do well on SATs it really doesnt matter. Accreditation is great to have but if they are not it doesnt mean you are not learning anything. If your desk are not a certain number of inchs apart or you dont have a copy of Tom Sawyer in the school library you cant get accredited. If you are in a program Freshman year and return to your own High school you may be a little ahead in some subjects and a little behind in others but your diploma will not be affected.
These are details you need to think thru prior to starting, unaccredited isnt the end of the world."
I think the biggest problem people have with program education is that the only thing a program teaches is submission and obedience, and the academics is self taught from a book under duress, and you re-take the same test until you at least score a "B" on it.
Thats not a really good way to learn anything.Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
--Bruce Lee
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On 2005-12-12 20:07:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"
On 2005-12-12 18:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-12-12 17:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
The education the kids recieve in this program is unaccredited you fool. I fell for that one too.
Yale, Harvard, Stanford.Indeappolis (sp) etc.
NO NO No ! You have been readign th glossy brochures or listening to the Teen help liars.
"
Depends on how well you do and when and how long you spend in the program. If you are in an unaccredited program during Senior year it could be a problem. If you do well on SATs it really doesnt matter. Accreditation is great to have but if they are not it doesnt mean you are not learning anything. If your desk are not a certain number of inchs apart or you dont have a copy of Tom Sawyer in the school library you cant get accredited. If you are in a program Freshman year and return to your own High school you may be a little ahead in some subjects and a little behind in others but your diploma will not be affected.
These are details you need to think thru prior to starting, unaccredited isnt the end of the world."
I think the biggest problem people have with program education is that the only thing a program teaches is submission and obedience, and the academics is self taught from a book under duress, and you re-take the same test until you at least score a "B" on it.
Thats not a really good way to learn anything.Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
--Bruce Lee
"
I agree, but I am sure activity like that is few and far between. Any program which advocates complete self teaching will eventually find itself reevaluating its academic portion of the program or slowly lose clientele. Both of which are self correcting.
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You have proof of that? What parents dont know or dont care about doesnt hurt the program.
I'd love some evidence to back up that claim.Homeschool is self regulating. The school board is not going to have illiterate useless people living in their homes forever if they don't have a working education policy.
--Sisterbluerose
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On 2005-12-13 02:59:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"You have proof of that? What parents dont know or dont care about doesnt hurt the program.
I'd love some evidence to back up that claim.Homeschool is self regulating. The school board is not going to have illiterate useless people living in their homes forever if they don't have a working education policy.
--Sisterbluerose
"
And do you have proof that it happens the way you describe?? PROOF... not just "Sally told me so it must so"
I'm sure some abuse takes place, to what extent I have no idea. But I really find it amazing that if someone says they were abused, you accept it without question. But if someone says that the program saved their life, you dismiss it as being nothing more than them being brain-washed.
Both offer the same amount of "proof" - just what they say. Just as you can find many that will say they were abused, you can find many that say they were helped. To unilaterally believe only one side, the side that you want to believe, simply shows your bias. It is not a convincing argument and it does not "prove" anything.
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:roll:
Wheres the proof that they aren't telling the truth, and your claims ARE true?
The "proof" for reasonable suspicion should be apparent: consistency. They all say the same things happen, theyve all said them for decades. People seperated by time and distance all saying the same thing cant be lying without some sort of conspiracy.
Unless you want me to think theyre all either programmed to lie a certain way or theres a conspiracy, Id say there a perponderance of evidence that something is going on, and mere suspicion of it would be enough for me to
1. not send a child there
2. suggest to anyone wanting to put a child in such a place to not do so
3. to remove a kid from there because... they totally restrict information and tell the parent BEFORE the child is even in the program he will lie to get out, thus making it impossible to know whats going on because the program is in total control of communication, and even tries to keep the parents from the child until the parent goes through a seminar in many cases, or that the chld must "earn" the right to contact their parents.
#3 DEFINITELY besmirks me as "covering your ass before you even do anything" and is wrong, period, anyway! Furthermore, cutting off communication and requiring conformity and obedience before talking to your own parents is unbeliveably coersive and cruel.
But hey, totally breaking their will (which at least some WWASPS owners/adminstrators have said themselves) must be okay to some people.The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism.
--William Osler
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On 2005-12-12 17:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
The education the kids recieve in this program is unaccredited you fool. I fell for that one too.
Yale, Harvard, Stanford.Indeappolis (sp) etc.
NO NO No ! You have been readign th glossy brochures or listening to the Teen help liars.
"
No, Silly, I spoke to Northwest Association of Schools and Colleges---the accrediting body.
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Furthermore, cutting off communication and requiring conformity and obedience before talking to your own parents is unbeliveably coersive and cruel.
I agree, if someone cuts off my leg that is cruel also, but who says this occurs? 10 people, 100 people, all the people. I know this not to be true of the people I have spoken to, so it sounds like someone made it up becuse they were mad at the school.
mere suspicion of it would be enough for me to
1. not send a child there
2. suggest to anyone wanting to put a child in such a place to not do so
3. to remove a kid from there because... .
Sure, but if one person tells you they were abused and 10 others say they are doing well and you hear their before and after stories and you have a child in crisis, what would you do? Especially if the kid who is bashing the school never graduated or moved on with his life and seems to be lieing and maybe programmed by others to say stuff like that. I would go with the story from the kids who are level headed and doing well. I think anyone would.
It is a fact, not all schools have the kids teach themselves. Now maybe its 10% or maybe its 90% , I dont know I havent seen them all. My gut feel is that most schools try to provide the highest education they can afford.
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Niles, you are arguing with the same program troll who has been here for a long time. Can't you tell by their writing? This is the same troll that shifts the argument, and manages to drag out important threads to over 30-40 pages. I think it's their tactic of simply disrupting this forum and try to place doubt in the minds of those who are on the fence(havent been to a program). Why waste your time?
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I think that person is saying stuff that makes some sense to some people. I think the guy is a troll but he says stuff that makes you think about stuff, what the fuck, let them post
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Yeah I suppose, but it just seems weird to me when an argument moves from reality based, completely into the realm of the hypothetical.
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On 2005-12-13 07:02:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
" :roll:
Wheres the proof that they aren't telling the truth, and your claims ARE true?
The "proof" for reasonable suspicion should be apparent: consistency. They all say the same things happen, theyve all said them for decades. People seperated by time and distance all saying the same thing cant be lying without some sort of conspiracy.
Unless you want me to think theyre all either programmed to lie a certain way or theres a conspiracy, Id say there a perponderance of evidence that something is going on, and mere suspicion of it would be enough for me to
1. not send a child there
2. suggest to anyone wanting to put a child in such a place to not do so
3. to remove a kid from there because... they totally restrict information and tell the parent BEFORE the child is even in the program he will lie to get out, thus making it impossible to know whats going on because the program is in total control of communication, and even tries to keep the parents from the child until the parent goes through a seminar in many cases, or that the chld must "earn" the right to contact their parents.
#3 DEFINITELY besmirks me as "covering your ass before you even do anything" and is wrong, period, anyway! Furthermore, cutting off communication and requiring conformity and obedience before talking to your own parents is unbeliveably coersive and cruel.
But hey, totally breaking their will (which at least some WWASPS owners/adminstrators have said themselves) must be okay to some people.The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism.
--William Osler
"
PROOF for REASONABLE SUSPICION?!?!?! So now you are saying this is a suspicion, not the truth?
I have not made any claims. In fact, I stated that I felt that some abuse probably did occur. I was simply pointing out that your had no more "proof" than the other side.
Yes, you claim LOTS of people over a period of time and space have made the same claims. Well, LOTS of people over a periods of time and space have also said they were helped tremendously as well. But you discount them because they do not agree with you. You dismiss them as being "programmed". You offer no more proof than anyone else.
But ok - how about something more productive. Let's just put aside the fact that your argument/proof is faulty. Let's take it as a given that these places are hell-holes of abuse.
Now, let's also agree that there are a hell of a lot of teenagers that are out of control/on the wrong path/etc. We have all encountered them - whether they are drugged out, violent, sexually wild, whatever. What do you do to help them? What do you do to help them become responsible people? What do you do to protect others, and themselves, from their actions?
Seems like THAT is the real problem - no one seems to have a way to help these kids. Seems most just want to sit back and bitch about the things that people are doing to try to help them.
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What do you do to help them? What do you do to help them become responsible people? What do you do to protect others, and themselves, from their actions?
Don't send them to a WWASP/PROVO type program!
Those questions are easily answered by a real and responsible parent who takes their job seriously. But, this is not a parenting advice forum, it's to discuss the bad programs, which we do. Then we get people like you coming through saying it's up to us to solve all the parents problems to prevent more kids from getting abused? Get fucking real.
Nobody here is saying they are some awesome parent or anything and have all the anwwers. All we are doing here is pointing out the bad programs, out of the thousands that are out there. There is no motive to lie once you are out of the program. Especially years and years after the fact. On the other hand, the program DOES have a HUGE incentive (about 100 million reasons per year) to keep the lie going. To keep the criticism at a minimum by discrediting witnesses. By spending unheard of sums on lawyers to file suit against survivors and defend against rightful claims of abuse. To be the largest political donor to the GOP in the state of Utah. Why would a self help program have to be THE largest political donor in the state if it was legit?
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On 2005-12-13 10:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What do you do to help them? What do you do to help them become responsible people? What do you do to protect others, and themselves, from their actions?
Don't send them to a WWASP/PROVO type program!
Those questions are easily answered by a real and responsible parent who takes their job seriously. But, this is not a parenting advice forum, it's to discuss the bad programs, which we do. Then we get people like you coming through saying it's up to us to solve all the parents problems to prevent more kids from getting abused? Get fucking real.
Nobody here is saying they are some awesome parent or anything and have all the anwwers. All we are doing here is pointing out the bad programs, out of the thousands that are out there. There is no motive to lie once you are out of the program. Especially years and years after the fact. On the other hand, the program DOES have a HUGE incentive (about 100 million reasons per year) to keep the lie going. To keep the criticism at a minimum by discrediting witnesses. By spending unheard of sums on lawyers to file suit against survivors and defend against rightful claims of abuse. To be the largest political donor to the GOP in the state of Utah. Why would a self help program have to be THE largest political donor in the state if it was legit?"
Oh please! So you think that all teens that run amok are due to poor parents? You think all the messed up, lost and stuggling teens in the world are simply because mommy and daddy don't care and don't take their jobs seriously?
There are LOADS of parents that have done everything in their power, they have tried everything they know - and it still doesn't matter. Don't you think that at least SOME of these parents that send these kids to these places are doing so because they are desperately looking for answers?
And like I have said - I'm sure there are cases of abuse, but that does not mean that every program is bad. It does not mean that someone that was helped is a liar/programmie/etc. And until there are better, more effective ways to help teens that are in trouble, these places will continue - - - the good, tha bad and the ugly.
I hear calls for proof. Does anyone have any numbers on this issue? How many programs are there? How many kids have gone thru? What is the average time they have stayed? What percentage have claimed abuse? Is this a knee jerk reaction akin to throwing the baby out with the bath water? Or is this a pervasive problem?
I fully understand that someone may have talked with a LOT of people (whatever number that may be) that claim abuse - - but what percentage of the population is that? I can talk to 5000 people, which seems like a lot to me, but on a population base of 1,000,000,000 - it is insignificant.
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It's frustrating arguing with a fool, so that's it for me. Consider this though, you are smack dab in the middle of a forum for one of the worst programs in the world. why?
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On 2005-12-13 11:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It's frustrating arguing with a fool, so that's it for me. Consider this though, you are smack dab in the middle of a forum for one of the worst programs in the world. why?"
Yes it is frustrating arguing with a fool. However, I am not a fool and have said nothing foolish. I have neither supported the programs nor denied abuse has happened.
It seems that many - perhaps yourself as well - are unable to discuss this topic reasonably and rationally. I understand it is an emotionally topic, and many people simply are unable to separate themselves from the emotion to debate and discuss. They fail to see beyond their narrow scope and personal agenda.
Why am I here? I wasn't aware that justification was required. Perhaps you would like to share your reasons - or not. It seems rather irrelevant to the topic at hand.
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Hehe. Good luck. :wave:
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On 2005-12-13 10:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-12-13 07:02:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
" :roll:
Wheres the proof that they aren't telling the truth, and your claims ARE true?
The "proof" for reasonable suspicion should be apparent: consistency. They all say the same things happen, theyve all said them for decades. People seperated by time and distance all saying the same thing cant be lying without some sort of conspiracy.
Unless you want me to think theyre all either programmed to lie a certain way or theres a conspiracy, Id say there a perponderance of evidence that something is going on, and mere suspicion of it would be enough for me to
1. not send a child there
2. suggest to anyone wanting to put a child in such a place to not do so
3. to remove a kid from there because... they totally restrict information and tell the parent BEFORE the child is even in the program he will lie to get out, thus making it impossible to know whats going on because the program is in total control of communication, and even tries to keep the parents from the child until the parent goes through a seminar in many cases, or that the chld must "earn" the right to contact their parents.
#3 DEFINITELY besmirks me as "covering your ass before you even do anything" and is wrong, period, anyway! Furthermore, cutting off communication and requiring conformity and obedience before talking to your own parents is unbeliveably coersive and cruel.
But hey, totally breaking their will (which at least some WWASPS owners/adminstrators have said themselves) must be okay to some people.The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism.
--William Osler
"
PROOF for REASONABLE SUSPICION?!?!?! So now you are saying this is a suspicion, not the truth?
I have not made any claims. In fact, I stated that I felt that some abuse probably did occur. I was simply pointing out that your had no more "proof" than the other side.
Yes, you claim LOTS of people over a period of time and space have made the same claims. Well, LOTS of people over a periods of time and space have also said they were helped tremendously as well. But you discount them because they do not agree with you. You dismiss them as being "programmed". You offer no more proof than anyone else.
But ok - how about something more productive. Let's just put aside the fact that your argument/proof is faulty. Let's take it as a given that these places are hell-holes of abuse.
Now, let's also agree that there are a hell of a lot of teenagers that are out of control/on the wrong path/etc. We have all encountered them - whether they are drugged out, violent, sexually wild, whatever. What do you do to help them? What do you do to help them become responsible people? What do you do to protect others, and themselves, from their actions?
Seems like THAT is the real problem - no one seems to have a way to help these kids. Seems most just want to sit back and bitch about the things that people are doing to try to help them.
"
Uh, first, do no harm? Sometimes the choice is to NOT do something. :roll:
Let your kids grow up! And, doing something just because you have to do something when nothing would be better, is stupid!Power concedes nothing without a demand. The limit of oppression is determined by the extent of the endurance of the oppressed.
--Frederick Douglas
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Uh, first, do no harm? Sometimes the choice is to NOT do something.
Let your kids grow up! And, doing something just because you have to do something when nothing would be better, is stupid!
I think everyone would agree to that, parents (parents that I know) wouldnt jump into having every problem solved by someone else, otherwise there would be tons of kids in RTCs starting at age 2. You can allow kids to grow up, make mistakes, learn by trial and error up to a point. If they get to a point where their behavior may be risking their life or the wellbeing of the family (siblings) Then action needs to be taken to insure everyone is safe.
So yes, I think we agree on that one, which is good they are few and far between it seems.
-
The PROBLEM is that many problems that dont exist are created by people selling program treatment, and many problems that arent severe at all are inflated into seemingly mortal threats in the mind of the parent.
Also, some parents just dont care and want to dump the kid. Rate wise, the amount of kids in programs is very low. A few ten thousand is still far too many even if its a percent or two of the population of the nation, but regardless, most parents DONT use programs, period. We seem to agree on that too.
I'd also ask you to recall the fact taht programs and edcons are out to make a buck, not to turn away kids that dont need problems, becuase that way they dont need money, and Ive seen ZERO evidence of that.
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I'd also ask you to recall the fact taht programs and edcons are out to make a buck, not to turn away kids that dont need problems, becuase that way they dont need money, and Ive seen ZERO evidence of that.
Everyone is out to make a buck, churchs, redcross, nonprofit orgs, drug dealers etc. and whether you choose to believe it or not some schools turn kids away who are not a good fit or who may not be successful, I have first hand knowledge of that.
If you really want to look at "hand over fist" gross profits. Trace an ounce of coke back to its origin and see how much the farmer gets paid and compare that to what the "End user" pays. The percentage (margin) blows away the profits of any RTC and drug profits are tax free !!!
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I think everyone would agree to that, parents (parents that I know) wouldnt jump into having every problem solved by someone else, otherwise there would be tons of kids in RTCs starting at age 2. You can allow kids to grow up, make mistakes, learn by trial and error up to a point. If they get to a point where their behavior may be risking their life or the wellbeing of the family (siblings) Then action needs to be taken to insure everyone is safe.
So yes, I think we agree on that one, which is good they are few and far between it seems.
Are you even a parent? You type a lot like 'proudgrad' did, who mysteriously dissappeared recently. :roll:
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On 2005-12-13 17:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I think everyone would agree to that, parents (parents that I know) wouldnt jump into having every problem solved by someone else, otherwise there would be tons of kids in RTCs starting at age 2. You can allow kids to grow up, make mistakes, learn by trial and error up to a point. If they get to a point where their behavior may be risking their life or the wellbeing of the family (siblings) Then action needs to be taken to insure everyone is safe.
So yes, I think we agree on that one, which is good they are few and far between it seems.
Are you even a parent? You type a lot like 'proudgrad' did, who mysteriously dissappeared recently. :roll: "
Yes I am a parent
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If you really want to look at "hand over fist" gross profits. Trace an ounce of coke back to its origin and see how much the farmer gets paid and compare that to what the "End user" pays. The percentage (margin) blows away the profits of any RTC and drug profits are tax free !!
Okay, you just outed yourself as a troll. By troll, I mean a complete RETARD teen who probably just got out of the program yesterday. I don't blame you though, I would be bored if I was on home contract too. Let me ask you one question though, you actually think the cocaine 'farmer' sells his product directly to the customer? :lol: Don't answer that, because I really have no interest in what you say other than for a good chuckle. Thanks for the laugh, I needed it. I love the naivety of some on this board.
You have obviously be stung by WWASP and infected with their venom.
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Yes I am a parent
Mother, father? How many children? What are their ages?
(PS: I think your lying.. but humor us anyways-why not?)
OR do you expect people to take parenting advice from a baghead?
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On 2005-12-13 17:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
If you really want to look at "hand over fist" gross profits. Trace an ounce of coke back to its origin and see how much the farmer gets paid and compare that to what the "End user" pays. The percentage (margin) blows away the profits of any RTC and drug profits are tax free !!
Okay, you just outed yourself as a troll. By troll, I mean a complete RETARD teen who probably just got out of the program yesterday. I don't blame you though, I would be bored if I was on home contract too. Let me ask you one question though, you actually think the cocaine 'farmer' sells his product directly to the customer? :lol: Don't answer that, because I really have no interest in what you say other than for a good chuckle. Thanks for the laugh, I needed it. I love the naivety of some on this board.
You have obviously be stung by WWASP and infected with their venom. "
where did it say the farmer sells to the end user? It gets stepped on many times along the way and each time it loses value but increases in price. The farmer gets virtually nothing the end user pays alot.
The point was there is a tremendous profit made. You are now thinking to yourself "I should have read his post more slowly, I feel like an idiot"
-
Hehe, nope. I'm thinking it's perfect that you compare WWASP with drug dealers. THERE ARE NO ACCIDENTS... right? "AGREED!" :roll:
troll troll away proudgrad.. haha.. :lol:
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So how many times does WWASP's profits get stepped on??
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On 2005-12-13 17:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Yes I am a parent
Mother, father? How many children? What are their ages?
(PS: I think your lying.. but humor us anyways-why not?)
OR do you expect people to take parenting advice from a baghead? "
Does it matter? I am stating opinions based on experience, like everyone else not advice. There is no need to believe or disbelieve me if you like. I dont believe what everyone says on this forum myself.
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Does it matter? I am stating opinions based on experience, like everyone else not advice. There is no need to believe or disbelieve me if you like. I dont believe what everyone says on this forum myself.
Ah. :rofl:
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Yes I am a parent
AND YOU SPEND YOUR TIME ON FORNITS ALL DAY?? WHERE ARE YOUR KIDS !? LET ME GUESS - AT A PROGRAM?
::noway::
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On 2005-12-13 17:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"So how many times does WWASP's profits get stepped on?? "
Dont know -- The parents pay directly to the organization account, which in turn pay the faculty, counselors, cooks, mortgage. etc and what is left over goes to the priciple owners or stock holders as profits. They can either pocket the money or reinvest it into the school, new buildings, painting etc.
a little over simplified. , but generally should cover it.
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On 2005-12-13 17:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hehe, nope. I'm thinking it's perfect that you compare WWASP with drug dealers. THERE ARE NO ACCIDENTS... right? "AGREED!" :roll:
troll troll away proudgrad.. haha.. :lol: "
Sorry - you lost me there with the accident thing
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"Dont know"
YES THAT IS VERY OBVIOUS. WHY DO YOU DEFEND A PROGRAM YOU KONW NOTHING ABOUT?? HAVE YOU EVER BEEN TO OR HAD A CHILD AT A PROGRAM, WHICH ONE, A WWASP ONE OR NOT?
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On 2005-12-09 12:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Nihilanthic,
Yes in the battle between parent and "out of control" child, the parent MUST win. This is not the everyday battle of what your child wears, or what show there watching on TV; this is a life and death battle. Webster's dictionary defines parent as: "A guardian; a protector." and the act of parenting as,? To act as a parent to; raise and nurture." Sending a child to a program is fulfilling this very principle, it's taking that child life and well being in to your own hands, yes that battle must be won. The role of a parent is to be somewhat like a supervisor, to raise and teach your child to go in the right direction, to make proper choices, and excel in all they do; it is not the role of a parent to merely be a friend, or to helplessly watch their child head down a road of destruction.
As for why I post anonymously on this board rather than post my name is two-fold. First of all due to the character of many who post on this board I do not feel it would be in the best interest of myself or my family to do so for safety concerns. I would not put in past many of you to show up at my door to cause some type of harm, because the internal anger that many of you experience is clearly revealed through your posts and language. The second reason is that I plan on sometime in the near future either opening or becoming involved with residential treatment centers for troubled teens. I truly believe that they are an invaluable tool in the lives of struggling teens, and that they do MUCH more good than harm. Upon completion of my degree I plan on pursuing a career in this field, and would never want those on this board to create fallacies about myself and my program as they consistently do on the board.
-Proudgrad!
"
WHY IS IT ALL THE CRAZIES WHO OPEN THESE PLACES UP. I WAS READING A FORUM ABOUT LIFESPRING THE OBVIOUS PRECURSOR TO WWASP SMINARS AND GILCREASE WAS A LIFESPRING FANATIC. YOU AREA WWASP FANATIC NI A LONG CHAIN OF LOONIES. YOU ARE NOT UNIQUE AND WILL ONLY DO MORE DAMAGE TO TEENS.
-
PS PROUDGRAD: WHY WASTE MONEY FIISHING YOUR EDUCATION YOU DONT NEED IT. THE PEOPLE WHO STARTED YOUR HOLY WWASP PROGRAM NEVER EVEN WENT TO COLLEGE. ALL YOU NEED IS A LOW MORALITY LEVEL OR IGNORANCE BEYOND REASON.
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On 2005-12-13 18:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
""Dont know"
YES THAT IS VERY OBVIOUS. WHY DO YOU DEFEND A PROGRAM YOU KONW NOTHING ABOUT?? HAVE YOU EVER BEEN TO OR HAD A CHILD AT A PROGRAM, WHICH ONE, A WWASP ONE OR NOT? "
Whoops -- you should reread that, I think. What the guy was referring to when he said "Dont know" was in reference to profits and who profits from programs. No one really knows except for the owners, has nothing to do with first hand knowledge of the programs effectiveness as far as the kids are concerned, calm down, you seem very agitated.
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Whoops -- you should reread that, I think. What the guy was referring to when he said "Dont know" was in reference to profits and who profits from programs. No one really knows except for the owners, has nothing to do with first hand knowledge of the programs effectiveness as far as the kids are concerned, calm down, you seem very agitated.
your ad-hominem style of post gives you away troll.
(http://http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/negative6.gif)
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NOW, i will agree that program can benefit some people but they try way too hard to pressure people into conforming (even if it hurts the "student") when most of them need other forms of treatment not available in a shit hole like spring creek.
If you can read this Chaffin, Cameron, or that red faced little bitch (Payne?) who I saw fuck the grievance chick in my cabin, and all you other pathetic SCL employees: I have to hand it you all for setting up something that reaps in the cash and blindside parents while they throw it away in flawed hopes of their kids recovery, but you truly are some twisted uncaring bastard child abusers. Yah, thats right... i agree that many of the girls and a few of the guys are diseased and may need to be put out of theit own misery you help create, but seriously, may god have mercy on your withered souls.
PS i am going to college and will become more successful than all of you scl bitches combined, and i will have your program and others drastically altered or destroyed in a legal way.
good day.
e3j3p3@hotmail.com
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One more thing, all of you SCL and WWASP program employess, investors, and supporters, just take a deep deep look at youselves, deep. Look at the life you lead. It may be good it may be bad. Look the kids that that suffer and may be suicidal and CANNOT benefit from your program and others despite the number of kids that do benefit. You need to inform the parents of these kids that there are many other options available for the proper treatment for their kids and their problems. Its for the benefit of a greater humanity... my interest and the world's.
Analyze, contemplate what is right, and go for it, that is why i am here, for what is right for me and what is right for my fellow brothers and sisters of whatever god there may be.
enjoy
e3j3p3@hotmail.com
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On 2005-12-09 15:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Proudgrad-
You breathe much needed fresh air into this forum. I appreciate your honesty and straight forwardness in explaining your personal experience of treatment. At this moment, my son who just turned 16, is struggling in school and his home life. He has started using drugs regularly, stays out all night and completely disregards my authority. Before you all jump on and call me a bad parent, know this - I have done everything and anything I could for this boy - I don't know how he has turned out the way he has. Perhaps it is his father, I'm not sure I will ever know, me and my son have zero communication. His father lives on the other side of the continent and shows little interest, so that leaves me with little choice. I have decided to look at the program options available, they seem to have really been of help to most students attending. Proudgrad, I would love to hear more about your story. What brought you into the program? What was it like being away from your family for so long? I have so many questions, I appreciate all the input you can provide. My email is PatriciaSwiggert@hotmail.com
Thanks in advance, I'm glad your program experience was a positive one, I hope the same for my son.
Patricia Swiggert :smile: "
HI Proudgrad:
It's me Patricia S. again, just to say I am looking forward to your email. I would love to get in contact with you via email but I couldn't find yours posted, so feel free to email me. My son is struggling and I appreciate all the help I can get. May God bless you and watch over you, Proudgrad.
Patricia
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On 2005-12-13 23:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"NOW, i will agree that program can benefit some people but they try way too hard to pressure people into conforming (even if it hurts the "student") when most of them need other forms of treatment not available in a shit hole like spring creek.
If you can read this Chaffin, Cameron, or that red faced little bitch (Payne?) who I saw fuck the grievance chick in my cabin, and all you other pathetic SCL employees: I have to hand it you all for setting up something that reaps in the cash and blindside parents while they throw it away in flawed hopes of their kids recovery, but you truly are some twisted uncaring bastard child abusers. Yah, thats right... i agree that many of the girls and a few of the guys are diseased and may need to be put out of theit own misery you help create, but seriously, may god have mercy on your withered souls.
PS i am going to college and will become more successful than all of you scl bitches combined, and i will have your program and others drastically altered or destroyed in a legal way.
good day.
e3j3p3@hotmail.com"
Benefit who? How?
How do you make the determination that extreme fear and humiliation is acceptable for a particular child? Who on earth would say "ok, you can brainwash and torture this child, but not the one whose depressed". Uhhh wouldnt someone get depressed and/or suicidal from living that way?
Also, good job with the trolling of the LIFE AND DEATH STRUGGLE TO DOMINATE YOUR CHILD. :lol:
I think I need to breathe some fresh air out of a hookah... later guys!I don't believe in God. My god is patriotism. Teach a man to be a good citizen and you have solved the problem of life.
--Andrew Carnegie, Scottish-born American industrialist and philanthropist
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Niles, did you even read the post you just quoted and accused of trolling?? Dude... get off your high horse, this guy lived the program and is here telling us the truth.
You go off on him over saying 'im sure the program benefits some people' and ignore the rest of his post. Sounds like a program supporters debating strategy man! Some people do thrive in the program... a small minority, and they are the type of person who thrives in prison, the military or a cult, or a fundamentalist religion. That type of person DOES thrive on this type of cult. Because they arent the type who are abused because they become an abuser so enthusiastically.
Dont attack people who are against the program man, thats not cool. Maybe you misread the post?? :???:
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On 2005-12-14 16:15:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"
On 2005-12-13 23:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"NOW, i will agree that program can benefit some people but they try way too hard to pressure people into conforming (even if it hurts the "student") when most of them need other forms of treatment not available in a shit hole like spring creek.
If you can read this Chaffin, Cameron, or that red faced little bitch (Payne?) who I saw fuck the grievance chick in my cabin, and all you other pathetic SCL employees: I have to hand it you all for setting up something that reaps in the cash and blindside parents while they throw it away in flawed hopes of their kids recovery, but you truly are some twisted uncaring bastard child abusers. Yah, thats right... i agree that many of the girls and a few of the guys are diseased and may need to be put out of theit own misery you help create, but seriously, may god have mercy on your withered souls.
PS i am going to college and will become more successful than all of you scl bitches combined, and i will have your program and others drastically altered or destroyed in a legal way.
good day.
e3j3p3@hotmail.com"
Benefit who? How?
How do you make the determination that extreme fear and humiliation is acceptable for a particular child? Who on earth would say "ok, you can brainwash and torture this child, but not the one whose depressed". Uhhh wouldnt someone get depressed and/or suicidal from living that way?
Also, good job with the trolling of the LIFE AND DEATH STRUGGLE TO DOMINATE YOUR CHILD. :lol:
I think I need to breathe some fresh air out of a hookah... later guys!I don't believe in God. My god is patriotism. Teach a man to be a good citizen and you have solved the problem of life.
--Andrew Carnegie, Scottish-born American industrialist and philanthropist
"
Nils, Nils, there you go again with the drama. How do you define "extreme fear and humiliation"? One can only assume from your post that it involves deprivation of access to a "hookah." Remember, you haven't seen these places. BTW, have you ever gone to the trouble to inquire of them directly?
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How do you define "extreme fear and humiliation"?
A WWASP [lifespring] Seminar.
Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=0#155059 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=13011&forum=44&start=0#155059)
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Well, that or "DONT EVEN LOOK WHERE WE DONT SAY YOU CAN AND DONT CROSS A DOORWAY OR SIT OR STAND WITHOUT PERMISSION OR YOULL GET PUT IN OP AND DROPPED LEVELS AND PAINFULLY RESTRAINED AND YOURE BEING WATCHED 24/7 EVEN WHILE TAKING A DUMP OR SHOWERING" might work.
:roll: Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.
--Thomas Paine, American revolutionary
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On 2005-12-09 12:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Nihilanthic,
Yes in the battle between parent and "out of control" child, the parent MUST win. This is not the everyday battle of what your child wears, or what show there watching on TV; this is a life and death battle. Webster's dictionary defines parent as: "A guardian; a protector." and the act of parenting as,? To act as a parent to; raise and nurture." Sending a child to a program is fulfilling this very principle, it's taking that child life and well being in to your own hands, yes that battle must be won. The role of a parent is to be somewhat like a supervisor, to raise and teach your child to go in the right direction, to make proper choices, and excel in all they do; it is not the role of a parent to merely be a friend, or to helplessly watch their child head down a road of destruction.
As for why I post anonymously on this board rather than post my name is two-fold. First of all due to the character of many who post on this board I do not feel it would be in the best interest of myself or my family to do so for safety concerns. I would not put in past many of you to show up at my door to cause some type of harm, because the internal anger that many of you experience is clearly revealed through your posts and language. The second reason is that I plan on sometime in the near future either opening or becoming involved with residential treatment centers for troubled teens. I truly believe that they are an invaluable tool in the lives of struggling teens, and that they do MUCH more good than harm. Upon completion of my degree I plan on pursuing a career in this field, and would never want those on this board to create fallacies about myself and my program as they consistently do on the board.
-Proudgrad!
Baloney. The child is not out of control, the parent does not have to win and it is not a life and death battle. Your melodrama is just that and only that. You just like to make stuff up.
A parent is not taking their child's "life and well being into their own hands." They are placing that child's life and well being into other people's hands, giving up, and relinquishing control.
-Proudparent
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On 2005-12-15 14:52:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"Well, that or "DONT EVEN LOOK WHERE WE DONT SAY YOU CAN AND DONT CROSS A DOORWAY OR SIT OR STAND WITHOUT PERMISSION OR YOULL GET PUT IN OP AND DROPPED LEVELS AND PAINFULLY RESTRAINED AND YOURE BEING WATCHED 24/7 EVEN WHILE TAKING A DUMP OR SHOWERING" might work.
:roll: Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.
--Thomas Paine, American revolutionary
"
Untrue, and if you ever actually went to see for yourdself, you'd know it.
-
This is some serious human rights stuff we are talking about here. There is plenty to do in terms of ending the unlawful and inhumane treatment of the kids in any "program" despite their behavior and problems. There needs to be some new federal regulations SPELLED OUT clearly of the rights and responsibilities of the parents, kids, and employees in or involved in these "programs" in the USA or not. There needs to be mandatory laws that inform the kids 18 or not, of their complete rights and options as USA citizens, especially in foreign countries.
Every current law needs to be reviewed and new laws need to be made for the complete, humane, and benefit of the kids. This all should be reviewed by non-biased lawyers, legislators, and representatives of all sorts. By unbiased I mean not brainwashed or paid-off in any which way. Yes some these kids have problems, but brainwashing and intimidation of all sorts needs to end, NOW. There needs to be proper guidelines specifically defining what can and connot happen no matter how problem-ridden a kid is, no matter what country they are in. They are USA citizens, kids, kids some of who just need time and the right environment to see the light... nothing like which goes on in these "programs."
This effort for the good of humanity will take you, me, and every good hearted person to step up and not put up with anymore of this ridiculous crap that we face every day in many forms, but specifically in terms of human rights and "programs."
Keep spreading the truthful word, keep researching the truth about what goes on, keep sharing it, write representatives or get in contact with who you can, use your powers: if you are a writer, reporter, or newscaster, get and honest story out.
#My suggestion is that we set up a web site focusuing on human rights and the acts against it, specifically these "progams." Through this specific site (which should be dedicated to the truth, include detailed information regarding other options for parents and their kids besides "programs" and may include selling t-shirts and coffee mugs supporting the site) good people will be able to share information and more easily progress in our effort. There are many possibilities. We need an effort, web designers, supporters, people knowlegale in law and research. The truth must be spread, changes need to be made.
Anyone with me?
e3j3p3@hotmail.com
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New Profile!
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just do it fast ...
they break kid down ....they will never feel the same.....kids make bad choices...they do not need to go to jail for it...home based help and programs work ....and love ...not feeling left alone in the world.... GET them OUT NOW!!!!
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On 2005-12-15 21:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-12-15 14:52:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"Well, that or "DONT EVEN LOOK WHERE WE DONT SAY YOU CAN AND DONT CROSS A DOORWAY OR SIT OR STAND WITHOUT PERMISSION OR YOULL GET PUT IN OP AND DROPPED LEVELS AND PAINFULLY RESTRAINED AND YOURE BEING WATCHED 24/7 EVEN WHILE TAKING A DUMP OR SHOWERING" might work.
:roll: Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.
--Thomas Paine, American revolutionary
"
Untrue, and if you ever actually went to see for yourdself, you'd know it. "
absolutely true I lived it. You've obviously never been there yourself.
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no, you wont get your money back. Money is money. Your kid is more importent. Think about your child forget about the money
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On 2005-12-09 10:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I am planning on getting her. I guess that is another question, what is the best way to approach the situation. Just show up unannounced, with no warning to family rep or school. They no that we have some questions regarding acedemic issues. Has anyone gone through this experience??"
>>>>
I had placed my son at Bethel Boys Academy (Eagle Point Christian Academy and now known as Respect Camp). I simply showed up unannounced and asked for my son. The owner's tried to talk my husband out of it "GOD lead you to us". "Your son hasn't changed yet". blah blah blah.
Oh, and since we gave them no warning my son had been brutally beaten, starved, tortured, dehydrated. We had paid with a $25,000 cashier's check but put a stop payment on it. We got all our money back and still filed a lawsuit against those corrupt bastards. Court date (in Federal Court) has now been postponed until August, 2006 due to Hurricane Katrina.
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Id pull the kid out now and make sure your kid is okay, THEN worry about the fucking money.
I agree 100%.
And realize, you won't know the whole story until your kid is OUT of the program.