Post by: Magpie on December 07, 2005, 09:23:00 AM
Since I found this website I have reunited with several old friends and it has been nice to catch up with them. I am a fan of JU because he has been a good friend to me since I was 15. I like friends that tell me like it is and not what I want to hear. I have also been in touch with others and i am so glad you all are doing well. Ft. Laud -- one day I am going to come to Ft. Lauderdale again and go on a boat ride with you.
Take care and I hope everyone has a wonderful holiday season. Magpie
Post by: cleveland on December 07, 2005, 10:58:00 AM
Walter
Post by: jgar on December 07, 2005, 11:37:00 AM
:wave: :wave: :grin: :grin: :grin:
Post by: GregFL on December 07, 2005, 12:04:00 PM
Hey Maggie!
:wave:
Post by: Anonymous on December 07, 2005, 01:01:00 PM
I must say I do remember you many years ago and am so happy that you are doing great. I too am friends w/ Ft. Lauderdale. I also have beautiful memories of the Seed and it will remain in my heart forever. I know there are some negative things that happended later with certain people but that was not what the Seed stood for.
I have such beautiful memories of the holidays at the Seed and special friendships that I will always treasure.
I firmly believe that whatever we go through in life teaches us lessons - be it good or bad. All of those experiences have given me so much in life that I never would have learned otherwise so I just can't be negative. However, I do realize and have learned so much after the Seed closed it's doors. Even coming here once in a while I will still realize things that happened but I don't want to dwell on the negative I just want to learn from it.
I hope you have a beautiful holiday filled with your loving family.
Lots of love to you.
Post by: Magpie on December 07, 2005, 01:18:00 PM
Just to set the record straight (no pun intended) I am not blind to the problems that people have had or things that they say happened at the Seed at all I am just sick of reading and talking about something I can't change. I am though happy in my life and just don't share all those views that you all do.
Once again, I think it's really cool that so many of us are successful and are choosing to live a productive life, especially you Greg. I learn more everyday choosing to be positive than rehashing the old days.
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on December 07, 2005, 01:39:00 PM
Thanks for the positive spin on things.
It's amazing what Betty Crocker can whip with a few positive ingredients.
Happy Holidays to all.
Maggie my boat is about to undergo repairs from the hurricane. It will be ready to go when your in Lauderdale.
Regards to all. :grin:
Post by: GregFL on December 07, 2005, 01:49:00 PM
But, it isn't all negative certainly not from everyone's standpoint, and the power of this forum to bring understanding and resolve to many people in my opinion outweighs any negativity I may encounter by the 'rehash'.
Just my opinion.
I do think anyone who comes here and finds themselves immersed in negativity needs to rethink the amount of time they spend here.
I also would like to take this opportunity to thank each and every one of you for your participation in this forum. This forum is read by far more people than participate, and I receive emails often from these people who are just beside themselves for finding the forum and for the healing power of the words you people write.
Post by: Anonymous on December 07, 2005, 02:58:00 PM
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on December 07, 2005, 03:14:00 PM
Did you read the Anonymous poster?
See I told you there are alot of really smart folks that post here. :grin: :???:
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on December 07, 2005, 03:15:00 PM
Post by: jgar on December 07, 2005, 03:23:00 PM
:grin: :grin: :grin: :roll: :roll:
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on December 07, 2005, 04:43:00 PM
I also learned how to juggle (hence Felix juggling)
(That was the only circus act I learned) this was for Greg.[ :grin: [ This Message was edited by: Ft. Lauderdale on 2005-12-07 13:47 ]
Post by: GregFL on December 07, 2005, 05:58:00 PM
Post by: Magpie on December 07, 2005, 07:02:00 PM
I learned about different religions because I am Catholic and I lived with a Jewish Family--that was interesting. I started having a more normal childhood at 15 and I started caring about my family and myself and my education. I started doing all the things I had missed. And I had a blast. Of course there were mixed emotions but I can tell you that they are no different than what I see my teens going through. I had my first friendships with guys and one of my best friends (who was a guy) taught me about different kinds of music, playing guitar, we would go on bike rides, spend time with our families. I guess if learning to do what I did was because I was in a cult (your opinion Greg), then I would do it all again! I was in a place that helped me grow up and become the wonderful fun loving adult that I am today.
And to that other poster that said don't read it if you don't like it--I don't read it--it's the same ole sh__ over and over again.
Post by: Anonymous on December 07, 2005, 07:23:00 PM
Oh, one other thing, please. I can't remember the difference between want and need. Can I be told by someone, please?
Post by: GregFL on December 08, 2005, 12:20:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-12-07 16:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I really need to be directed by sombody. I need to work on my bad thoughts, or badly formed thoughts. Can I find out from you directions to a meeting? I need a group on writing in the passive voice.
Oh, one other thing, please. I can't remember the difference between want and need. Can I be told by someone, please?
"
No.
:grin:
Post by: GregFL on December 08, 2005, 12:33:00 AM
Quote
I guess if learning to do what I did was because I was in a cult (your opinion Greg), then I would do it all again!
And thats okay Maggie (and it was fun when we went bowling, wasn't it?)
Everyone doesn't take their experience in a cult as negative. Hit that link I posted above and read it.
As for the seed being a cult, it is listed by all the major cult experts as one. It is not merely my opinion but the opinion of all respected cult experts who have looked at it, was the opinion of the congress of the united states who did a study that came out while you and I were there. That the Seed was a cult is not new information, it is just now confirmed outside the secrecy that the seed tried unsuccessfully to maintain.
So, coming to terms with the fact you were in a cult does not mean you have to reject the positives you took from it. It does hopefully however, help one understand that others may have been devastated by the same experience.
Capice?
Post by: cleveland on December 08, 2005, 09:29:00 AM
But in the end, I was stifled. No relationships with girls (Maggie, you hung out with boys? Any unsuperivised time with the opposite sex was prohibited for me). I was stuck in unsatisfying careers. Anytime I formed a real bond with anyone, staff would move me to a new apartment. I outgrew the seed, and I was in a role of permanent oldcomer, which was really so limiting. As I have noted before, staff was not open to my pursuing my career interests, school or relationship. They might have been more open if I had been more assertive, like Ft. Lauderdale was, but I had been told so often how bad I was at making choices and how incompetent I was that I believed it. It's no different from a disfunctional family system, and that's what I was stuck with. I would have loved to go bowling! Made friends with a girl! Ft. Lauderdale, you had more freedom than most - don't forget that. I guess it's all relative to our personal experiences. But happy holidays anyway!
Walter
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on December 08, 2005, 09:56:00 AM
I agree with you also. I did have some freedom.
I think it was wrong that you were told some of the things you were told. I wish you would have blown up a couple of times instead of being so damn nice. I even think if I would have heard the Artist thing, I might have said something for you. I guess I kinda bonded with people by sortof fighting with them sometimes.
Post by: Anonymous on December 08, 2005, 11:42:00 AM
1. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
2. The followers of such a religion or sect.
2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
4. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.
5.
1. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
2. The object of such devotion.
6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.
ETYMOLOGY:
Latin cultus, worship, from past participle of colere, to cultivate; see kwel- 1 in Indo-European roots
Post by: Anonymous on December 08, 2005, 12:56:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-08 06:56:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
I think it was wrong that you were told some of the things you were told.
Would it be accurate to state it like "We were wrong to tell you those things." ?
Post by: GregFL on December 08, 2005, 01:02:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-08 08:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
" 1.
1. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
2. The followers of such a religion or sect.
2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
4. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.
5.
1. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
2. The object of such devotion.
6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.
ETYMOLOGY:
Latin cultus, worship, from past participle of colere, to cultivate; see kwel- 1 in Indo-European roots
"
While the dictionary definition of the term "cult" varies and can be applied to various types of groups, the term "cult" is generally used in society to describe a destructive group that has certain characteristics. Here, try this it may help
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult#Defin ... .22cult.22 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult#Definitions_of_.22cult.22)
"Secular cult opponents define a "cult" as a religious or non-religious group which tends to manipulate, exploit and control its members. Here two definitions by Michael Langone and Louis Jolyon West, scholars who are widely recognized among the secular cult opposition:
"Cults are groups that often exploit members psychologically and/or financially, typically by making members comply with leadership's demands through certain types of psychological manipulation, popularly called mind control, and through the inculcation of deep-seated anxious dependency on the group and its leaders.1 "
"A cult is a group or movement exhibiting a great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea or thing and employing unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control (e.g. isolation from former friends and family, debilitation, use of special methods to heighten suggestibility and subservience, powerful group pressures, information management, suspension of individuality or critical judgement, promotion of total dependency on the group and fear of [consequences of] leaving it, etc) designed to advance the goals of the group's leaders to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, or the community." 8
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on December 08, 2005, 01:03:00 PM
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on December 08, 2005, 01:04:00 PM
Post by: GregFL on December 08, 2005, 01:07:00 PM
That is all.
Post by: Magpie on December 08, 2005, 01:31:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on December 08, 2005, 02:16:00 PM
Let me make a comparrison. Say, just for example, I happen to run into one of those jokers who dropped something in my drink some decades ago and then proceeded to pass me around among their friends like a party favor. At the time, not a damned thing I could do about it. What, call the cops? I'd rather do that whole sick scene again for just one night than get the continual ass kicking and harrassment I'd get for the crime of trying to escape my ever loving Group.
So let's say this guy recognizes me and says "Hey, I remember you! You remember that great party on St. Paddy's Day back in `82 in Ft. Lauderdale? What blast that was! God, I miss those guys. Let's hook up with them and do it again."
Now, what should be my response to that? Beat him severely with a baseball bat right then? Set him up on false charges so that he might relive those fond memories w/ the shoe on the other foot at Raifford? Or smile, respectfully and tell him he's entitled to his own opinions on the matter?
Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not to their own facts. The reason why the distinction is important to me is pretty simple and obvious and (now that I think of it) I've stated it pretty often around here. I don't really care so much what you think as you're not (to my knowledge) starting your own cult.
But I won't let this matter rest or the fiction stand unchallenged till NIDA, law enforcement, schoolpeople and others in authority quit pretending that this sort of mindfuck is therapeutic.
My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right.
-- Ashleigh Brilliant
Post by: cleveland on December 08, 2005, 02:27:00 PM
But - but! Why did the Seed exist? And why so many programs today? Because there is a need, real or perceived. There is something wrong with growing up in America today, and parents are scared while kids are unhappy.
So let's figure out what it is that is missing, and try to supply in our own families and society. And if you tell me it's just a lack of love or attention, well maybe, but even kids from happy families get screwed up.
Sometimes I think Ginger and Greg too will rub people's faces in the 'c' word, hoping that they will say, 'alright, alright - the Seed was a cult!' Not going to happen - certainly not for Maggie and Ft. Lauderdale, who had positive experiences (and I have no reason to doubt - I know Ft. Lauderdale and he is a kind, intelligent person). Look, my brother and sister swear by AA, and I have read all of the anti-AA literature, and I agree with it, but I have no arguments for the fact that it did work for them, and that they feel that it was needed and successful. So I have to respect their experience. Although I do disagree, why should I try to make them agree with me? We can share our own experiences and let the chips fall where they may. Merry Christmas!
Post by: Antigen on December 08, 2005, 03:35:00 PM
Now, this is not just theoretical from my standpoint. I'm speaking from experience. If we tell them the truth, what we really think and what they need to know, some of us risk getting another round of good old fashioned Group lovin' for it. I have a very good friend who lost custody of her children to her Straight, Inc. believing parents for a time for the "crime" of letting her kid try pot at home under gentle supervision rather than go out driving somewhere unknown w/ her young, inexperienced friends in the night and try, maybe, LSD or Exctacy.
This was years ago, but the fear and anger burn on. And do you blame her?
I'm reading a very good book right now about Nazi Germany just before WWII. I'm only mildly surprised to find that on the night that the good, right thinking, party faithful burned the synagogs all over Germany, not every goyem celebrated. Some said things like "What next, the Katherine Church?" and "Burning God's house! Can you imagine?" But they didn't say it very loud, the kids might hear. And that could be dangerous.
Why in the world should it be important to anybody to set the record straight about this ongoing crime wave? Why in the world? I just can't imagine. :roll:
Sorry, no.
Ministers say that they teach charity. That is natural. They live on hand-outs. All beggars teach that others should give.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
Post by: Antigen on December 08, 2005, 03:54:00 PM
I'm guessing that those frat boys, at the time, being quite impaired themselves, probably told themselves that my participation in their party was more or less consensual. I had, after all, voluntarily taken the invitation to join in their St. Paddy's Day celebration and gladly accepted the first drink they offered me. It was, from their point of view, more or less just some good clean fun. Naughty, bad, out of bounds to be sure. But not sick, sadistic or really profoundly wrong.
I understood and accepted that then and, if I ran into any of them now, would probably not be filled w/ rage. I might even feel a little sorry for the, too. After all, I wasn't hurt by the whole thing anywhere near as much as people say all rape is always profoundly destructive. Relative to the rest of my life's circumstances at the time, it was a very minor event.
But there's a difference. Like the rest of us, I'm sure those boys grew up. And, unless they're authentic and incurable assholes, by now they must know they owe me a sincere apology.
Yes, I can accept that some of you had a great time mind-fucking whoever landed up in group. And I can easily understand, given the circumstances, how back then you had no clue that it was wrong, no concept of the damage you were doing. But now? NOW? How fucking DARE you step to me and, for all intents and purposes, tell me to shut the hell up with the complaining and let you guys wax fondly nostalgic about the good times ya'll had mindfucking little girls and little boys.
No, sorry. Sick is sick.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark. The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.
--Plato
Hands that help are far better then lips that pray.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
Post by: Anonymous on December 08, 2005, 04:02:00 PM
Quote
< Who was gangbanged on St Paddy's day??? What???? :cool: :cool:
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on December 08, 2005, 04:53:00 PM
Thank you in advance.
Post by: Antigen on December 08, 2005, 04:58:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-08 13:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
Who was gangbanged on St Paddy's day??? What???? :cool: :cool: "
I was. I had run from Straight for the second time. So I knew full well what the stakes were if I got caught. I'd wandered around for a couple of weeks on the highways (no, not being a hooker, just your run-o-the-mill hitchhiker) when I decided to go see my brother. I thought maybe he'd have a friend somewhere who would be willing to help me stay hidden while keeping body and soul together till the magic birthday.
Took me 3 full days to hike down to So. Florida. Florida is, I'm convinced, the coldest state in the union.
Never did hook up w/ my brother. Spent some hours hiding out in the bushes at the end of the street, ate some fruit off the neighbor's tree, took a nap and waited to try and catch my brother at home w/o my dad. Finally decided I didn't have the courage or it wasn't worth the risk of getting caught and sent back. So I took my happy ass back the hell out of Florida. I think I landed up in Massachusetts that time. Hard to remember.
If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.
--Albert Einstein, German-born American physicist
_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
Post by: Anonymous on December 08, 2005, 06:12:00 PM
Post by: cleveland on December 08, 2005, 06:51:00 PM
Abuse has many, many forms and faces, and we are all of us guilty at some point of hurting one another. And even our best efforts to be good can turn out poorly.
No wonder you are mad. I think you have used some of your anger to fuel the work it takes to maintain and run this site, and I am grateful that you have chosen to do so.
I agree with you that the current treatment of adolescents is all wrong, and unfortunately, a lot of it was based on the Seed.
But I also see that there are posters here who have a largely positive memory of the Seed, and I find it hard to think that the original intent of the seed was evil. I think that anything as powerful and coercive as the seed was can lead, and maybe will always lead, to abuses. But I can't argue with someone's positive feelings - you can't argue feelings. I hope that we will have respect for feelings as well as for facts - in the end, truth will be revealed and that's what healing is all about as far as I am concerned.
I heard someone say that there is no such thing as 'closure' when it comes to human feelings, that our experiences enclose one another like the rings of an onion. That makes sense to me. We can only assimilate, but the pain and joy of our experiences will be with us forever.
Anyway, I guess it seems weird to add it to this post, but happy holidays - again - to everyone!
Walter[ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2005-12-08 15:54 ]
Post by: landyh on December 08, 2005, 07:33:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-08 15:51:00, cleveland wrote:
"
But I also see that there are posters here who have a largely positive memory of the Seed, and I find it hard to think that the original intent of the seed was evil. I think that anything as powerful and coercive as the seed was can lead, and maybe will always lead, to abuses. But I can't argue with someone's positive feelings - you can't argue feelings. I hope that we will have respect for feelings as well as for facts - in the end, truth will be revealed and that's what healing is all about as far as I am concerned.
Walter[ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2005-12-08 15:54 ]"
I was there in the beginning and have stated numerous times that it didn't start out as coercive or abusive in any way. Ginger has even been willing to acknowledge the possibility. It just wasn't the way so many of you who came later remember it in the beginning. I got to go back and see for myself how it had changed. The problem Ginger when you want to talk about the facts is you have to realize that in regard to The Seed there was a fluidity within the facts that was inexorably affected by time and space. For all intense and purpose we are not even talking about the same place even if it still had the same name.
There really shouldn't be any disagreement. I saw what it was and what it had started to become. Sorry guy's but both sides are right if taken in the correct context of time. Those are the defensible facts.
Post by: GregFL on December 08, 2005, 08:15:00 PM
What still surprises me tho is the dogmatic way some seed supporters get riled at any criticism of the beloved cult, even in the face of the harm it caused so many people, and even when those people acknowledge that the others had a positive experience.
Can't we discuss the seed as an event in our lives without taking it personally? Is that possible?
Post by: landyh on December 08, 2005, 10:32:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-08 17:15:00, GregFL wrote:
"Landy, it is because of this forum that we understand that the seed was an idea that developed and dramatically changed in short periods of time. We all know that.
What still surprises me tho is the dogmatic way some seed supporters get riled at any criticism of the beloved cult, even in the face of the harm it caused so many people, and even when those people acknowledge that the others had a positive experience.
Can't we discuss the seed as an event in our lives without taking it personally? Is that possible?
"
I agree Greg and i was trying to say that in my own roundabout way.:wink: I was fortunate in one way to have actually personally experienced at least some of the changes from what was a positive force to something darker and definitively different. I can see the facts of my experience as being non-exclusive of the experience of others but when we exclude the possibiity that the sum of our own experiences at the Seed may not equal the whole of its parts we seem to slip into a form of discord that argues to no purpose. If any of us fail to balance the truth in a way that requires us to stand back from the limit or our own contact with the program then we gain nothing of value. Doggedly clinging to a narrow percection on either side is equally pointless. I have never found stretching my own viewpoint to be of damage to its origins.
Post by: Anonymous on December 08, 2005, 10:34:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on December 09, 2005, 08:32:00 AM
I know people have fond memories from the Seed. People also have fond memories of Straight. There's at least one former staffer who I knew from Sarasota who can't seem to comprehend how we all saw things so differently from what he remembers. He never wittnessed any abuse, only consequences.
Do you see how and why it's dangerous to leave that kind of pleasant delusion alone? Landy, I saw the Seed change over a very short time even from my low to the ground and at arm's length perspective. And I saw more changes when I got to St. Pete and Sarasota and more still over the two years I was in Sarasota. How did that happen, man? How did such an altruistic ideal become so horrid? Well, for one thing we were never allowed dissent. If someone asked you how you were doing, there was only one acceptable answer; a convincing and entheusiastic "GREAT!"
If you bought that fiction and actually believed that everybody felt GREAT all the time, I'm sorry to tell you that you got punked. But don't feel too badly, you didn't suffer half so much as those of us who practically shit ourselves for years afterward every time some kind soul made that query of us not knowing our history.
If we only allow complaints and no positive stories, who will ever understand how good people could take part in these horrid act? That's actually one of my big beefs w/ the media and other outlanders' attempts to cover this story. The way they paint it, their audience is looking for some lurching monsters who don't exist. But if we only allow the positive and leave out the unpleasant details, well that's just as distorted.
In my opinion, if anyone wants to have a one sided conversation about this topic they'll have to carefully screen participants and spend a good deal of time and effort monitoring and moderating the convo. That's not gonna happen here.
Mean time, anybody asking the rest of us to please quit spoiling their fond fantasies w/ inconvenient truths is going to get a loud, entheusiastic and well deserved raspberry from me.
The most fundamental fact about the ideas of the political left is that they do not work. Therefore we should not be surprised to find the left concentrated in institutions where ideas do not have to work in order to survive.
--Thomas Sowell
Post by: Antigen on December 09, 2005, 08:41:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-12-08 16:33:00, landyh wrote:
For all intense and purpose
:rofl:
I just caught this. Yes, things changed gradually, imperceptibly. I would imagine that, one day, someone used the phrase "for all intents and purposes". Then someone picked it up, probably a staffer who no one dared correct, and they said "for all intense and purpose" and it went unchallenged. Somewhere down the line, it morphed into "for all intensive purposes". As far as I know, that has remained unaltered in the cannon of Program lingo lo these many years.
But do you see my whimsical point here? Where dissent and dissagreement are not welcome and encouraged, we're bound to magnify errors.
I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard was not what I meant.
---Richard Nixon
_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on December 09, 2005, 12:15:00 PM
But that gives you no excuse to say that anyone that had a good experience with the seed was in your words "mind fucked". I never "mind fucked" with anyone and I resent that whole tone and personally find it quite offensive.
Actually if anyone is stuck in the past. It appears to be you. This whole thing is getting old fast. I think you love to hate and you want to hate. I guess you kinda get off on it. Why else would you rip to shreads anyone that has anything good to say about their experience. I quite frankly have had enough of your crap. It just repeats itself over and over and over. I really hope you some day come to terms with your issues. You definatly have them weather you want to see it or not. I wish you well. I think you really need help. I hope you get the help you need.
[ This Message was edited by: Ft. Lauderdale on 2005-12-09 09:26 ]
Post by: marshall on December 09, 2005, 12:19:00 PM
"Where dissent and dissagreement are not welcome and encouraged, we're bound to magnify errors."
-----------
And that's exactly why I think the organization(s) are at fault more than the individuals who may have been a part of it. From sociology we know that people tend to behave in crowds in a different way than as individuals. I think the same is true of people in organizations of various sorts. Any group, culture or organization that discourages dissent or disagreement tends to go bad at some point, however good the original intent was.
Many political pundits have made this point in regards to the current administration. The president has surrounded himself with people who are reluctant to disagree with him, so any tiny error becomes magnified instead of corrected. I see the same phenomena over and over in studying different religous organizations. It's the whole problem with authoritarian structures.
Until the final confrontation, it seems no-one was willing to criticize or question Art's judgement on anything of significance. The same applied to staff to a lesser extent. No-one who was a mere group-member could challenge or question any rap leader or staff. The whole thing was founded on that top-down authority. Any mistake at the top was conducted and magnified downward.
Once upon a time, a man and the devil were walking down the street. They watched as someone walking ahead of them reached down and picked something up. The devil began to laugh with delight whereupon the man with him asked what the person had picked up;
Devil: "Ah, that person just found Truth."
Man: "Truth?, I would have thought that would be very bad for you. Why are you so happy?"
Devil: "Because I'm going to help him organize it!" :smokin:
It's how we got from 'love thy neighbor as thyself' & 'judge not lest ye be judged' to the inquisition and bashing infants heads upon rocks to save their souls.
Post by: Anonymous on December 09, 2005, 09:18:00 PM
You gotta admit it's all in the way you look at it!
My house is still a pile of rubble, but me & my family were & are OK!
I am still commuting 2 hours each way to work, but I am glad to have a job, HEY a New Job too!!!
I am all alone (& lonely) in a place that now seems unfamiliar, but I am thankful to have the love & support of family & friends & the people I have been able to re-connect with thru this site
You get the idea, I would be most happy to take a boat ride with all of you, because you know what?
Every day above ground is a good day...
Happy Holidays & Love you guys!!!!
Chris
Post by: ChrisL on December 09, 2005, 09:40:00 PM
Chris
Post by: Jupiter Survivor on December 10, 2005, 07:52:00 AM
Exactly......History has shown this over and over again. If you throw a frog into a pot of boiling water, he will try and get out, BUT if you put him in and slowly heat the water, he will stay until dead. Are we not so different? To be thrown in an obvious cult and see all that is wrong from the start, we run like hell, our vision is clear. If not we stay until it very slowly shows it's ugly head, we tend to justify the shortcomings, little by little, until we can no longer be objective or see clearly.
I personally think the word cult fits, it denied freedom of independent thought. There was NO agreeing to disagree that I EVER witnessed there. I know somewhere on the boards it was mentioned that they didn't like the word cult because it had racist connotations. Yes it does, it has very much in common with racism....fear and ignorance.
Post by: GregFL on December 10, 2005, 11:26:00 AM
d
I am going to start a new thread called "Maggies friend thread" where all discussion of the seed, negative or positive, will be moved to this thread.
Post by: Antigen on December 10, 2005, 12:50:00 PM
Quote
I'd rather do that whole sick scene again for just one night than get the continual ass kicking and harrassment I'd get for the crime of trying to escape my ever loving Group.
Then T... woops! Ft. Lauderdale, who must never ever be named for some damned reason I can't understand, said:
Quote
On 2005-12-09 09:15:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
But that gives you no excuse to say that anyone that had a good experience with the seed was in your words "mind fucked". I never "mind fucked" with anyone and I resent that whole tone and personally find it quite offensive.
Actually if anyone is stuck in the past. It appears to be you. This whole thing is getting old fast. I think you love to hate and you want to hate. I guess you kinda get off on it. Why else would you rip to shreads anyone that has anything good to say about their experience. I quite frankly have had enough of your crap. It just repeats itself over and over and over. I really hope you some day come to terms with your issues. You definatly have them weather you want to see it or not. I wish you well. I think you really need help. I hope you get the help you need.
Yeah! That. Just exactly that is what I had to finally run from. Here, it doesn't hurt at all. It's just words on a web page. There's no threat behind it. I don't have to thank you for it, pretend you're right or that I'm a horrible person or wrong or mistaken. You can't start me over or induce Group to keep on harrassing me till I break down.
Ft. Lauderdale, maybe you need a little help? Marshall nailed it, I think. It's not the individuals so much as the organization. Blame the game, not the players, ya' know? Don't take it so damned personally, alright? I'm trying to help you, darlin! Really and for true!
I remember some good times. I remember some good singing, some playing in the pool w/ my brother and his newcs, the New Crusty Nostrils. And I remember Art's charisma. He really was a charming man. No wonder so many people bought in. But there is an undeniable dark side to it all.
Now, how can you come around to a point where you don't get all bent out of shape every time someone mentions any of the negative aspects of it all? What can we do to help you get your head straight about it?
The orientation of the public school in and of itself disenfranchises the poor. It suggests that only the student can be held responsible for failure; the institution, because of its position and strength in society, is unassailable.
--Rodger Hurley
Post by: GregFL on December 10, 2005, 01:27:00 PM
:grin:
Post by: marshall on December 10, 2005, 02:11:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on December 10, 2005, 09:22:00 PM
Cult: A religion with no political power.
--Tom Wolfe, American author
Post by: Anonymous on December 11, 2005, 04:27:00 AM
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on December 11, 2005, 08:31:00 AM
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on December 11, 2005, 08:41:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on December 11, 2005, 10:47:00 AM
do you ever just want to have a conversation that doesnt have fighting? i mean that as a sincere question. ever come home or go to the office or whever it is and just think, you know for once i'd like to not have an arguement about 'xyz'. it struck me that that's what this thread was. just chat, etc.
secondly, lets say she does want a pro seed thread. um, who cares??? out of all the threads on this board, one pro-seed no dissension thread is a problem?
Post by: GregFL on December 11, 2005, 11:34:00 AM
There will be noexclusively pro or anti seed threads coming our way in the foreseeable future. That would go against the intended purpose of this forum.
The friend thread is the friend thread, and yes, Maggie was a hottie!
:grin:
Post by: GregFL on December 11, 2005, 11:39:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-12-10 18:22:00, Antigen wrote:
"So it's not just me.
"
No, I caught it too. THat is why any seed comments in the friend thread will not be deleted, they will just be moved over here to this thread. Exclusive rants pro or con seed can only be conducted in private messages between two people. All other comments are subject to having your parade rained on here, in the open forum.
Post by: Anonymous on December 11, 2005, 11:49:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-12-08 10:31:00, Magpie wrote:
"If i say "okay I admit it, we were in a cult" would you leave it alone then? What the hell are you going to do about it anyway. I don't plan on starting another program nor does Ft. Laud. or anyone else I know. Plus, I respect the fact that you think it was a cult, so why can't you respect the fact that I don't. This is what "agreeing to disagree" means. I know you think it is and I don't think it was or that it makes any difference. Sorry! See you guys can't leave it alone--I thought perhaps I would give this a try but it didn't work. BYE!"
It sure would be easier for you seed-types if we "left it alone" wouldn't it?
But guess what - your perception of the seed does not change the fact that it was a cult. Sorry to blow up your happy little christmas- true-believers-only runion, but the facts is what they is and no amount of Tiny Tim wishing is going to change it. Not being able to go back to Christmas Past to change what we did to each other under the guise of love doesn't make it all goodness and light.
Take your ball and go on home. When you are strong enough to run with the big dogs, come back out to play. In the meantime, ask Santa to bring you a spine for Christmas so that you might be stong enough to face the new year...
Post by: Magpie on December 11, 2005, 12:25:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on December 11, 2005, 03:47:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-11 01:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Most of your post are garbage. You were not in the program but you have more to say about than anyone else. It is tiring and annoying. How can you possibly tell someone else what their experience was like when you never experienced it yourself ? And please dont give us you used to make peanut butter sandwiches and go to open meetings crap.
"
Great! The ultimate deflection! No one outside the Group could possibly understand (cuz they didn't have special Awareness) and so nothing any non-seedling had to say had merit. Same w/ Straight, right down to the letter. Moreover, no talking behind backs or out in group, no cliquing (unautorized friendship or friendship w/ an unauthorised basis) and the confidentiality rule meant that no one inside the group who voiced unauthorized views had any merit either.
If I wasn't there, then why does anything I have to say bother you so much?
Religion is based . . . mainly on fear . . . fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in hand. . . . My own view on religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as a disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race.
--Bertrand Russell, British philosopher, educator, mathemetician, and social critic
Post by: Antigen on December 11, 2005, 03:50:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-11 07:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
do you ever just want to have a conversation that doesnt have fighting?
Yes, and I often do. When I want such a conversation, I wouldn't walk up to a devout Christian and start going on about religion or to a Democrat or Republican and breach the topic of politics. If you really want a friendly, light and non-contentious conversation, you don't come onto a forum expressely about the Program and tell people to shut the fuck up about the Program.
And Terry, you're psychonalysis of me is quite lame. You're not convincing anyone but yourself and other devout Seedlings.
With soap, baptism is a good thing.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
Post by: Anonymous on December 11, 2005, 05:23:00 PM
nothing even close to that.
Post by: Antigen on December 11, 2005, 07:36:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-07 06:23:00, Magpie wrote:
So this section hopefully will be for people who want to reunite with old friends or just talk about their good experiences. So let's see if people can keep the negative stuff in the other sections and keep this one for good times.
How do you read that, darlin'?
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
--Albert Einstein
Post by: Anonymous on December 11, 2005, 09:04:00 PM
if i read every post on the board this way, and took them up several notches, well i wonder what words i would attach when people really do get verbal with one another.
Post by: Magpie on December 12, 2005, 09:21:00 AM
Post by: cleveland on December 12, 2005, 10:14:00 AM
Maggie, you seem like such a charming person in your posts and your memories of positive times are very evocative of the good times I had too...but that is only one part of the story for me.
I don't feel sorry for anyone who is actively posting here, presenting a viewpoint and then responding to others. I think it is healthy and good for all of us.
Post by: GregFL on December 12, 2005, 03:19:00 PM
Quote
I don't feel sorry for anyone who is actively posting here, presenting a viewpoint and then responding to others.
Me either.
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on December 12, 2005, 04:15:00 PM
Post by: landyh on December 12, 2005, 08:14:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-11 16:36:00, Antigen wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-12-07 06:23:00, Magpie wrote:
So this section hopefully will be for people who want to reunite with old friends or just talk about their good experiences. So let's see if people can keep the negative stuff in the other sections and keep this one for good times.
How do you read that, darlin'?Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
--Albert Einstein
"
Well Ginger you have to admit it does have a slightly softer tone to it. :wink:
Post by: GregFL on December 12, 2005, 10:33:00 PM
Somewhere in the thread someone pointed out that the thread was designed for positive seed comments only. Maggies opening round pretty much sums that up, and Ginger Correctly quotes it.
That is why, when I started the friends thread, I said No seed commentary, period.
There will be no exclusively pro or seed threads coming our way...
sorry folks...but that just grates my ass. This forum was created as a place where everyone would get a voice on this subject, and I won't have it any other way. All comments on the seed are subject to having a pin firmly inserted in your balloon.
Post by: Antigen on December 12, 2005, 11:32:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-12 17:14:00, landyh wrote:
Well Ginger you have to admit it does have a slightly softer tone to it. :wink:"
Well yes. And "Herr Goldstien, I have orders to escort you to the train, for your own protection." has a far softer tone to it than a loud pounding on the door in the night, followed by a search and a ride in a Black Maria. But the end result is the same.
No citizen of a liberal and democratic nation profits from a victorious war.
--Ludwig von Mises
Post by: landyh on December 12, 2005, 11:42:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-12 20:32:00, Antigen wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-12-12 17:14:00, landyh wrote:
Well Ginger you have to admit it does have a slightly softer tone to it. :wink:"
Well yes. And "Herr Goldstien, I have orders to escort you to the train, for your own protection." has a far softer tone to it than a loud pounding on the door in the night, followed by a search and a ride in a Black Maria. But the end result is the same.No citizen of a liberal and democratic nation profits from a victorious war."
--Ludwig von Mises
Thats a beautiful reply and in the proper context which doesn't seem to be here it is valid. But then I don't really want you to be quiet anyway nor do I really wish to provoke you too much. :wink: But you know that already.
Post by: Antigen on December 13, 2005, 12:37:00 PM
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense
--Buddha
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on December 13, 2005, 12:55:00 PM
Sorry check with Mary Poppins on the spelling :grin:
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on December 13, 2005, 01:14:00 PM
Post by: landyh on December 13, 2005, 08:22:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-13 09:37:00, Antigen wrote:
"One word, Landy: TuliaBelieve nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense
--Buddha
"
Ginger,
I think we probably can find some common ground on this kind of thing. What happened in Tulia was despicable. I wonder why our country doesn't get duly alarmed over things like this including Waco and Ruby Ridge. Can we some it up by parphrasing a portion of an old quote? "When they came for me there was no one left". On the other hand if you go back to my original comment to which you replied you might notice I was just trying to take your advice about lightening up. :wink: Listen if you want to look at the slow erosion of our freedoms take a look at the DUI laws around the country and how they allow "legal" exceptions to due process under the law. Prior restraint, denial of a trial by a jury of your peers. This crap is all taking place write here in our sweet country because people think well we really need those drunks off the road anyway. If you want to really get scared go to Association of Motor Vehichle Department Administrators and read what their long term goals are. Doesn't anybody see the implications of a National linked Database of Driver Licenses all tied to a social security number and compulsory for State compliance by ties to funding mandated by TEA. Notice that your kids if you have them probably didn't make it out of the hospital without a social security number and certainly won't make it to a publicly funded school without one. Its Ok now to incarcerate sexual offenders who have already served their time for there crimes but its all Ok because it isn't you. Not yet anyway. I haven't even touched on the implications to our rights of the Patriot Act. To sum it up I think it was Franklin who said " if you give up liberty for security you have neither liberty nor security" All I can say is make sure your papers are in order and with you.
Post by: Antigen on December 13, 2005, 10:37:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-13 17:22:00, landyh wrote:
I wonder why our country doesn't get duly alarmed over things like this
How often do you wonder? How long have you wondered? And have any ideas occured to you? I have a few. One common thread is, of course, there's always a boogieman. Drugs are a big one. It's a beautiful thing because drug use is an intractible condition. Not a huge problem, usually. Except when a population is subject to inescapable stress, it's usually just a minor side note as social problems go. How convenient, eh? You take a place like Tulia where almost everyone's poor. And the poorest are black (not by coincidence) And so they'll be more tempted to engage in drug trade and, maybe, in excessive use, too.
But, regardless, drug use is, was and ever shall be everywhere. Wanna indict a group for any reason? Any reason at all; cause they're young, cause they're black, cause they're poor and there's nothing to be done about that (not that we're willing to do, anyway), cause they're RAVErs who sing and dance about anarchy and other scary stuff? Any damned reason will do, just bring in the drug dogs. They'll find some, guaranteed.
So, initially, when the story broke, few questioned the lunacy of the idea that a little panhandle town like Tulia, with one gas station, could support a market for over 40 drug kingpins. Least ways, not till that one white guy spoke up, then hooked up w/ some activists and ACLU types, and a newspaperman or three decided to ride that story to the end of the line. Then, of course, it was obvious. A lot of things about that story were obvious fabrications; Tom Coleman, Texas Lawman of the Year???? My Ass!
But initially, why of course it was true. Who would question it? They had photos of the perp walks on the front page of the local paper; a perfect manifestation of that boogieman they'd been reading about and talking about at every damned PTA meeting for decades.
That's why no one raises an eyebrow; they have, for the most part, already accepted the fantasy before the patsy need be chosen. Unless, of course, we have a healthy, free and open debate. Yah know, like in that old Norman Rockwell poster. Do you support drug prohibition because it finances criminals at home or because it finances terrorists abroad?
--Anonymous
_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
Post by: Anonymous on December 14, 2005, 01:29:00 PM
Do you call what is being posted the Straight board freedom of speech?
Post by: GregFL on December 14, 2005, 01:44:00 PM
No, Art Barker has been invited to participate thru third party proxies but has not to this date.
And yes, what is occuring in the straight site is freedom of speech, even if you do not like it.
Oh yeah, welcome whoever you are.
Post by: landyh on December 14, 2005, 10:15:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-13 19:37:00, Antigen wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-12-13 17:22:00, landyh wrote:
How often do you wonder? How long have you wondered? And have any ideas occured to you? I have a few.
There was something comfortable about an America where all but the most serious criminals or our current villain of the time could cross a few state lines and start fresh. That of course is gone. So why since I am not currently involved in anything seriously criminal do I have the most extensive library of anyone I know on alternate identity and puposeful disapearance? Lack of trust in our system and the direction it is going due to firsthand experience with it. I suppose there are some that think the military focus for the last 2 decades on urban door to door warfare is just to be directed at those outside of our borders unless of course we have a hurricaine or something.
I have thought about it for a long time except I was a little tied up over the last decade or so advocating for my profounding deaf son and others like him as a board member and Vice President for the Alexander G. Bell Association ( Florida Chapter) and running the non-profit parent support group Sound Approach, Inc. that I founded and directed. So I apologize for not being a stellar activist in the general area of Civil Libeties but I feel pretty comfortable with the priorities I set.
Post by: Antigen on December 15, 2005, 12:13:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-12-14 19:15:00, landyh wrote:
So I apologize for not being a stellar activist in the general area of Civil Libeties but I feel pretty comfortable with the priorities I set.
Oh, I never meant it that way! It doesn't really take a lot of activists to guard our freedom. Just a whole lot of people paying attention so we don't get took. I think I'm seeing signs of rumblings and awakenings all over the place. Just curious about that. How many are waking up and how wakeful are we willing to be and to stay?
One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils in this world are to be cured by legislation.
--Thomas Brackett Reed
Post by: Antigen on December 15, 2005, 12:19:00 AM
I'm very hopeful. The more people get their dander up about this stuff, the better I sleep.
Quote
My colleague here at Cato, Radley Balko, blogs in his private capacity as
The Agitator.
He has discovered what appears to be a gross miscarriage of justice in
Mississippi. Late nite drug raid on an innocent person who, fearing for his
life (police did not announce as they burst in), shoots and kills a cop.
The homeowner is then charged with "murder" and is now on death row.
Because the cop who was killed was the son of the local police chief, and
because of inexperienced lawyer for the defense, the man seems to have been
railroaded.
Details here:
http://www.theagitator.com/archives/026002.php#026002 (http://www.theagitator.com/archives/026002.php#026002)
Thanks to Radley, the case is starting to attract much attention and we
expect even more in the next 2-3 weeks.
Tim Lynch
Cato Institute
It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.
Thomas Jefferson
Post by: SurRobinHood on December 28, 2005, 08:37:00 AM
Post by: GregFL on December 28, 2005, 09:40:00 AM
Post by: Antigen on December 28, 2005, 11:46:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-12-28 05:37:00, SurRobinHood wrote:
Please pardon me for adding something that may not be considered relevant but being new in here I am befuddled about this thread.
Yeah, I hear ya! Look up some of John Underwood's posts or Ft. Lauderdale's. And there are some others, too. Amazing, isn't it? All these years later and they still seem to get off on the whole thing.
Now, bear in mind that some folks attended a very different Seed than others. At some point, they quit w/ the locked doors and guards and such. It was more like a run-o-the mill cult (like the Krishnas) than a lock down facility. So that explains it for some people. But others, not so much. My own brother is still so far up Art's ass it's tragic. Doesn't even remember the compulsive nature of the whole thing cause he did, after all, get talked into 'voluntarily' signing himself in.
Moralizing, with the force of law or coercion, is a
far greater crime against the constitutional principles of our nation than unauthorized euphoria, regardless of the substance involved, be it chocolate or heroin.
--James