Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on November 16, 2005, 06:58:00 PM
-
Here ya go. Parent implimenting her own 'program'.
Parental humiliation appears to work 'just' as well as program.
Mom Makes Daughter Stand on Street Corner By SEAN MURPHY, Associated Press Writer
Wed Nov 16, 2:14 PM ET
EDMOND, Okla. - Tasha Henderson got tired of her 14-year-old daughter's poor grades, her chronic lateness to class and her talking back to her teachers, so she decided to teach the girl a lesson.
She made Coretha stand at a busy Oklahoma City intersection Nov. 4 with a cardboard sign that read: "I don't do my homework and I act up in school, so my parents are preparing me for my future. Will work for food."
"This may not work. I'm not a professional," said Henderson, a 34-year-old mother of three. "But I felt I owed it to my child to at least try."
In fact, Henderson has seen a turnaround in her daughter's behavior in the past week and a half. But the punishment prompted letters and calls to talk radio from people either praising the woman or blasting her for publicly humiliating her daughter.
"The parents of that girl need more education than she does if they can't see that the worst scenario in this case is to kill their daughter psychologically," Suzanne Ball said in a letter to The Oklahoman.
Marvin Lyle, 52, said in an interview: "I don't see anything wrong with it. I see the other extreme where parents don't care what the kids do, and at least she wants to help her kid."
Coretha has been getting C's and D's as a freshman at Edmond Memorial High in this well-to-do Oklahoma City suburb. Edmond Memorial is considered one of the top high schools in the state in academics.
While Henderson stood next to her daughter at the intersection, a passing motorist called police with a report of psychological abuse, and an Oklahoma City police officer took a report. Mother and daughter were asked to leave after about an hour, and no citation was issued. But the report was forwarded to the state Department of Human Services.
"There wasn't any criminal act involved that the officer could see that would require any criminal investigation," Master Sgt. Charles Phillips said. "DHS may follow up."
DHS spokesman Doug Doe would not comment on whether an investigation was opened, but suggested such a case would probably not be a high priority.
Tasha Henderson said her daughter's attendance has been perfect and her behavior has been better since the incident.
Coretha, a soft-spoken girl, acknowledged the punishment was humiliating but said it got her attention. "I won't talk back," she said quietly, hanging her head.
She already has been forced by her parents to give up basketball and track because of slipping grades, and said she hopes to improve in school so she can play next year.
Donald Wertlieb, a professor of child development at the Eliot-Pearson Department of Child Development at Tufts University, warned that such punishment could do extreme emotional damage. He said rewarding positive behavior is more effective.
"The trick is to catch them being good," he said. "It sounds like this mother has not had a chance to catch her child being good or is so upset over seeing her be bad, that's where the focus is."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051116/ap_ ... _on_corner (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051116/ap_on_re_us/girl_on_corner)
-
thats something my dad would have done and he was pretty fucked up. that shit is sick. public humiliation is abuse.
-
What the Hell is wrong with these people. I raised 5 kids through their teen years, and believe me, none of them were easy, some worse than others. I read these posts and absolutely cannot imagine what goes through these parent's minds. This may be over-simplifying things, but kids learn how to treat others by the way their parents treat them...this lesson goes on from birth. If parents show respect for their child's feelings, ideas and opinions, the child will more than likely enter his or her terrible teens with enough self esteem and pleasant memories to want to avoid permanently alienating their parents. This doesn't mean that they won't talk back, argue about everything, try drugs, sex, alcohol, etc., just as their parents did, but most of them will avoid becoming addicts, pregnant or delinquents...just as their parents did. Perhaps it comes down to the obsession with being perfect, and having imperfect kids is just not acceptable. I think it would be awesome if all the perfect parents who were perfect kids would post their names on this forum and let us know which perfect program their child was sent to. If you are wondering why I am even here, I have a close relative in a program, and have learned enough through surfing the subject, visiting this forum and others, to be terrified for the poor child.
-
Welcome! Thanks for the words of wisdom, which are shared by many regulars here.
Hope your relative comes out unscathed. Perhaps you'll have the opportunity to share some wisdom with him/her at some point. It seems to be helpful for them to hear that someone understands and sees it for what it is/was. The acknowledgment and validation seem to be very useful things to offer. Gives them hope that there are still some sane adults in the world- it's not totally hopeless yet. Are we the minority?
-
I don't necessarily think we are a minority, the average sane person has maybe heard of these programs, but knows nothing about what really goes on behind the closed doors. They visualize a bunch of unwashed, drug addicted, gang affiliated delinquents who need to be kept away from society. What they don't realize is that most of the kids who get sent away are from upper middle class homes, many of them are gifted intellectually and have never been anywhere near a gang. Some have experimented with drugs and others have done little more than talk back to their parents and teachers. I personally believe that it's the parents who need a program. They have fed and clothed the child since birth, but have never taken the time to get to know him or her. They are strangers living under the same roof, and then all of a sudden their baby is bigger than they are, has opinions, passions and dreams they disagree with. The baby is now a thinking person, not just a cute little possession to be shuttled off to the nanny or babysitter. Most of these parents are used to getting their own way in life, they are successful financially and have been able to control others to get where they are. Suddenly they have met their match, the child been observing their behavior since birth, and learned all of their tricks. He or she has become a master at manipulating others, can be completely deceptive, self centered and stubborn. The parents are scared, helpless, clueless and ripe for program propaganda. They are told everything they want to hear, they are good parents with a bad kid. Amazingly, no one ever seems to question how the kid got so bad, or where they were for the past 13 or 14 years while this terrible transition was taking place!
-
I happened to read this article earlier this morning before I read this post. I was appalled that a parent would do this to a child! I am thankful that a passing motorist called authorities.
-
On 2005-11-17 08:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I don't necessarily think we are a minority, the average sane person has maybe heard of these programs, but knows nothing about what really goes on behind the closed doors. They visualize a bunch of unwashed, drug addicted, gang affiliated delinquents who need to be kept away from society. What they don't realize is that most of the kids who get sent away are from upper middle class homes, many of them are gifted intellectually and have never been anywhere near a gang. Some have experimented with drugs and others have done little more than talk back to their parents and teachers. I personally believe that it's the parents who need a program. They have fed and clothed the child since birth, but have never taken the time to get to know him or her. They are strangers living under the same roof, and then all of a sudden their baby is bigger than they are, has opinions, passions and dreams they disagree with. The baby is now a thinking person, not just a cute little possession to be shuttled off to the nanny or babysitter. Most of these parents are used to getting their own way in life, they are successful financially and have been able to control others to get where they are. Suddenly they have met their match, the child been observing their behavior since birth, and learned all of their tricks. He or she has become a master at manipulating others, can be completely deceptive, self centered and stubborn. The parents are scared, helpless, clueless and ripe for program propaganda. They are told everything they want to hear, they are good parents with a bad kid. Amazingly, no one ever seems to question how the kid got so bad, or where they were for the past 13 or 14 years while this terrible transition was taking place! "
I guess it's hard to see clearly when your head is up your ass. So you get it right that these kids might come from upper middle class--although many are middle class-- and that most aren't into gang activity (although realistically, most kids in America could find a gang to join if they wanted). But you are pretty ignorant about what the parents are thinking, and how the programs work.
You swallow the notion that, if you're financially successful, you must be bad--not to mention controlling and stupid. If you have created success in your life, then you obviously consider kids possessions, and went through things like labor and those joyous years of diapers, nursing, etc., just so you could show them off.
Making middle class parents the villains goes hand in hand with the ridiculous idea that genuine social problems are always a product of poverty. So these kids couldn't possibly need real intervention because hey, they have money, what the fuck are they complaining about?
It's a fashionable but destructive social engineering position. It also perpetuates problems in order to keep funding ineffective educational and social approaches, playing the heartstrings of nitwits like you.
But your true idiocy is in your assumption that programs tell parents they're wonderful and the kids are bad, and your idea that no one looks at how the family got where it is. I'd suggest pulling your head out of your ass and gathering some facts.
:silly:
-
You are mighty defensive, maybe you are one of those people anon is talking about. In any case, you missed the point, which is kids don't get screwed up by themselves. No one is implying that middle class kids don't need help, the point is that they, along with their parents, need help from trained professionals, not from abusive, uneducated guards. They do not need to be rejected by their families and warehoused in kiddie penal colonies out in the middle of nowhere. Maybe you are the one who needs to do some research and find out what the experts have to say about the subject. Might I suggest you google ASTART, an organization composed of mental health experts who are researching the long term effects of residential programs and trying to come up with safe alternatives.
-
You're right, no one's implying it. I'm stating it outright. Not that there are not kids who could benefit from the good council of a well educated, compassionate profrssional. Obviously, there are.
But MOST kids are not abnormal. You get that, don't you? Most of the kids who land up in these places would be FAR better off w/o any intervention at all. They just need to grow up and their parents need to come to grips w/ the reality that parenting is not for the faint of heart.
May your days be joyously challenging and your words artfully true.
--Ginger Warbis
-
Look at this... uh, 'gem' I found on freenet on the whole idea of humiliation to make a kid do what you want:
------------------- How To Punish And Humiliate Your child ------------------
When it comes to child punishment, there are many schools of thought. I have
found that humiliating punishments hit the right spot in the child mind and are
very effective at fighting bad behaviour. This particular punishment relies on
enema retention.
Mix 4 or 5 tablespoons of baking soda into about 1 quart of warm water (about
105 degrees), then slowly administer it to your child, massaging his abdomen
and remembering him what he has done wrong. Don't be harsh, in this phase you
want to be gentle and make your child relax. Warm baking soda enema isn't
painful or too discomforting in the first minutes.
Then make your child stand and tell him to keep his hands over his head, while
retaining the enema. Tell him that the procedure cannot be interrupted and if
he leaks water from his anus he will be spanked and the procedure repeated.
Keep him in this position for at least 10/15 minutes.
Meanwhile, get another enema bulb ready, filled with 1 glass of cold white
vinegar. You will need an enema syringe or an enema bulb for this to work. The
classic enema bag isn't fast enough for this purpose. You may want to prepare
the bulb before the whole procedure and keep it in the refrigerator for about
an hour. 40 degrees is an optimal temperature.
When your child is ready, tell him he will get another enema and that if he is
able to keep it inside for another 10 minutes his punishment will be over. Have
him get on all fours with the chest to the floor and his butt raised in the
air. Insert the tip of the bulb in his butt and make him ask for forgiveness.
He must use a rather long sentence, just "I'm sorry" won't do. In the middle of
the sentence, quickly squeeze the bulb and empty it in his rectum. You must be
really quick.
He will feel immediate cramping and he may not be able to retain the water. If
he isn't, spank him, telling him he isn't even able to control his bowels and
repeat the procedure the following day until he is able to. He must retain it
for another 10 minutes, then you will allow him to sit on the toilet to empty
himself.
This procedure will definitely teach your child how to behave, don't use it too
often though, for it is quite irritating to the colon. He will be constantly
farting for the following 2 or 3 days.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wish I was kidding. :roll:
-
A link please
-
On 2005-11-17 17:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You are mighty defensive, maybe you are one of those people anon is talking about. In any case, you missed the point, which is kids don't get screwed up by themselves. No one is implying that middle class kids don't need help, the point is that they, along with their parents, need help from trained professionals, not from abusive, uneducated guards. They do not need to be rejected by their families and warehoused in kiddie penal colonies out in the middle of nowhere. Maybe you are the one who needs to do some research and find out what the experts have to say about the subject. Might I suggest you google ASTART, an organization composed of mental health experts who are researching the long term effects of residential programs and trying to come up with safe alternatives. "
Assuming again. Give me numbers here and show documentation. I can tell you that I know personally most of the programs in the state of Montana use trained professionals: licensed and certified therapists, psychologists, psychiatrists, and social workers.
And while programs have a vested interest in serving families, ASTART has a vested interest in spreading misinformation. They're there specifically to network all the goofballs who think programs are the devil. They aren't going to tell the truth about how effective progreams are for all those kids that the states have failed to serve. ASTART is not researching; they are collecting and dissemintating propaganda.
-
Holy...crap. ::jawdrop::
-
***Give me numbers here and show documentation.
Like the numbers of 'success' stories? There is no documentation because the industry knows it wouldn't be in their financial interest to let those statistics out publicly.
However, a few 'studies/polls' have been conducted.
Here's one conducted inside the industry. Bottomline, programs leave alot to be desired and appear to 'work' primarily because they hold kids incommunicado from the rest of the world until they mature, or not.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=60#50807 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=5516&forum=9&start=60#50807)
And significant research indicating that the aggregation of distressed teens and the use of BM are not only undesirable but could be detrimental.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#87186 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=8628&forum=9&start=0#87186)
-
On 2005-11-21 16:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"***Give me numbers here and show documentation.
Like the numbers of 'success' stories? There is no documentation because the industry knows it wouldn't be in their financial interest to let those statistics out publicly.
However, a few 'studies/polls' have been conducted.
Here's one conducted inside the industry. Bottomline, programs leave alot to be desired and appear to 'work' primarily because they hold kids incommunicado from the rest of the world until they mature, or not.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=60#50807 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=5516&forum=9&start=60#50807)
And significant research indicating that the aggregation of distressed teens and the use of BM are not only undesirable but could be detrimental.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#87186 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=8628&forum=9&start=0#87186)
"
Masterful avoidance of the issue. You claimed the programs are run by guards, and not by professionals. Focus, here. Cite your sources for your claims about who does what.
Much of the available research is shaky for a lot of reasons---not the least of which is the fact that many "researchers" make the same false assumptions you do. For instance, I could conduct a study of the benefits of ballet companies, but if I just assume they make dancers wear tap shoes, I'm going to come up with correspondingly weird results.
In a real life example, listen as everyone crows about the NIH claiming programs don't work. Then read the real report (NOT "STUDY") and catch how it assumes the programs are treating kids for violence--not the case for most programs--and it assumes most of the kids are not drug users. It also assumes all kinds of smaller issues about how kids are housed and treated.
Many of the "studies" were conducted only through self-reporting--seldom considered reliable. Others were conducted by players like "Woodbury Reports," or other parties that stand to profit directly from skewed results. Overall, there are wildly divergent claims about results.
Add to that the fact that in the end, the results depend entirely on the choices of the person involved, and it's a little tough to support claims about results either way. The only good test is to determine if the program really offers what it promises, whether that's a certain structure, therapy, or approach. Nothing works for everyone.
We can prove or disprove FACTS--who runs them, who serves the kids, what the behavior plan consists of, etc. So have at it. Do you have any real facts about any of this?
-
On 2005-11-19 09:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-11-17 17:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You are mighty defensive, maybe you are one of those people anon is talking about. In any case, you missed the point, which is kids don't get screwed up by themselves. No one is implying that middle class kids don't need help, the point is that they, along with their parents, need help from trained professionals, not from abusive, uneducated guards. They do not need to be rejected by their families and warehoused in kiddie penal colonies out in the middle of nowhere. Maybe you are the one who needs to do some research and find out what the experts have to say about the subject. Might I suggest you google ASTART, an organization composed of mental health experts who are researching the long term effects of residential programs and trying to come up with safe alternatives. "
Assuming again. Give me numbers here and show documentation. I can tell you that I know personally most of the programs in the state of Montana use trained professionals: licensed and certified therapists, psychologists, psychiatrists, and social workers.
And while programs have a vested interest in serving families, ASTART has a vested interest in spreading misinformation. They're there specifically to network all the goofballs who think programs are the devil. They aren't going to tell the truth about how effective progreams are for all those kids that the states have failed to serve. ASTART is not researching; they are collecting and dissemintating propaganda. "
I sit here wondering. Who are these goofballs? Why do they exist? Why are they willing to spend so much time and energy denouncing something they know nothing about? What purpose do they have in disseminating propaganda?
I sit here wondering. Why is the teen help industry so defensive? Why doesn't Microsoft, or Ford have advocates on the internet calling their critics 'goofballs?' Why is it that only the defenders of this industry deem it necessary to toss ad-hominems at anyone who critiques or disagrees with their methods?
Oh wait, Cheney does this, too. But then, Cheney thinks it is okay to hold prisoners in secret prisons and torture them. Or is that the teen help industry?
-
On 2005-11-21 18:46:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
Oh wait, Cheney does this, too. But then, Cheney thinks it is okay to hold prisoners in secret prisons and torture them. Or is that the teen help industry?
http://TheStraights.com/gop.htm (http://TheStraights.com/gop.htm)If the personal freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution inhibit the
government's ability to govern the people, we should look to limit those guarantees.
--President Bill Clinton
-
I have often wondered the same thing. Why are these program advocates so belligerent toward anyone who disagrees with them? Especially people who have been to the programs and are only voicing their personal experiences! There are simply too many survivor stories with too many common threads to be fabrications. Besides, what do these former victims have to gain by lying? It's pretty obvious what the program advocates have to gain...big bucks. Maybe they would be more believeable if they weren't getting rich off of these poor kids and their misguided parents. It's really disgusting.
-
Yeh, right up there with religion and politics. People don't like to have their beliefs challenged. If they really looked at the situation they may have to admit some things which could be embarrasing and painful.
Easier to roll the dice- send Johnny off to strangers to 'fix'- and tell the folks at the club that he's away at boarding school.
Nothing really new. People with money (primarily) were sending their kids off long before the industry emerged, but instead of military schools and religious reform homes, we now have 'emotional growth' gulags. Many hold the belief that they are somehow better because they are 'therapeutic'. Far as I can tell it's the same ol means to an end.
With one possible difference. In all the years of religious/military placements were there 150+ deaths? I'm sure there were a few, but the industry has averaged about 6 per year since 1980. And that says nothing of the unreported 'accidents' and injuries. Should 'Emotional Growth' carry such a high risk in terms of danger to life and limb?
-
You negelected to mention that the success of these "emotional growth schools" is in using the devoted parents promote what they "believe saved their kid's life.
Holy molly it saved their lives. Lets do the "chicken dance" !
Tell it to some one who doesnt know better....
-
On 2005-11-22 08:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
With one possible difference. In all the years of religious/military placements were there 150+ deaths? I'm sure there were a few, but the industry has averaged about 6 per year since 1980. And that says nothing of the unreported 'accidents' and injuries. Should 'Emotional Growth' carry such a high risk in terms of danger to life and limb?
Also, compare the size of the body and the nature of their activities. How many recruits enter boot camp every year? How many die in training accidents while practicing combat skills w/ real planes and choppers and such? Some, obviously. But how many as a part of the whole? Same for good old fashioned reform school. I've read horror stories very similar to those that come out of the nuevo troubled parent industry, except in one regard.
Everyone knows that reform school punitive. The "therapeutic" label, to borrow a byte of psychobabbal, is passive aggressive abuse. Notice how frequently Program believers fall back on "Well, you need to go back and get a little more therapy"? I just can't tell you how terrifying those kind of words can be to someone who has had about all the "help" they can stand.
It will be generally found that those who sneer habitually at human nature and affect to despise it, are among its worst and least pleasant examples
--Charles Dickens
-
On 2005-11-22 08:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Yeh, right up there with religion and politics. People don't like to have their beliefs challenged. If they really looked at the situation they may have to admit some things which could be embarrasing and painful.
Easier to roll the dice- send Johnny off to strangers to 'fix'- and tell the folks at the club that he's away at boarding school.
Nothing really new. People with money (primarily) were sending their kids off long before the industry emerged, but instead of military schools and religious reform homes, we now have 'emotional growth' gulags. Many hold the belief that they are somehow better because they are 'therapeutic'. Far as I can tell it's the same ol means to an end.
With one possible difference. In all the years of religious/military placements were there 150+ deaths? I'm sure there were a few, but the industry has averaged about 6 per year since 1980. And that says nothing of the unreported 'accidents' and injuries. Should 'Emotional Growth' carry such a high risk in terms of danger to life and limb?
"
Your data and assumptions are very misleading and statistically meaningless. Only 150 people died in the last few hundred years in Military and Religious placements? believable? and 6 children die inside the industry schools per year. Is that good or bad? How many are saved? How many kids die in public or private schools per year? How many kids die that run away or drop out? How many kids die in car accidents? More than 6 per year? Should'nt we be shutting down the car industry then. How about drug overdoses? More than 6 per year? Should we sue the parents because they didnt intervene? Why isnt anyone slamming the drug dealers or putting their names up here? Dont kids die because of them? Is it more than 6 per year? How many of the drug dealers are accredited or offer diplomas? How many do better in school because of it?
I agree with improving the schools or any institution where kids are involved. We should always have the pressure on to protect the kids, but lets keep it real and fact based.
my 2 pennies ..........
-
Your data and assumptions are very misleading and statistically meaningless. Only 150 people died in the last few hundred years in Military and Religious placements? believable? and 6 children die inside the industry schools per year. Is that good or bad? How many are saved? How many kids die in public or private schools per year? How many kids die that run away or drop out? How many kids die in car accidents? More than 6 per year? Should'nt we be shutting down the car industry then. How about drug overdoses? More than 6 per year? Should we sue the parents because they didnt intervene? Why isnt anyone slamming the drug dealers or putting their names up here? Dont kids die because of them? Is it more than 6 per year? How many of the drug dealers are accredited or offer diplomas? How many do better in school because of it?
I agree with improving the schools or any institution where kids are involved. We should always have the pressure on to protect the kids, but lets keep it real and fact based.
my 2 pennies ..........
I agree, we need to equate program officials and supporters with drug dealers. This is a very real analogy. They are pushers for an evil which infects it's victims in a way they will shrivel up into a shell of themsleves before it's all over. Unless you get out early... and don't get addicted to the program. Unfortunately, most do. Program supporters and officials are very much like drug dealers. They will do anything for money, namely harming others. The people who do these types of works are ones with no moral scruples to keep them from pursuing their fortune at the expense of our young souls.
-
Your data and assumptions are very misleading and statistically meaningless. Only 150 people died in the last few hundred years in Military and Religious placements? believable? and 6 children die inside the industry schools per year. Is that good or bad? How many are saved? How many kids die in public or private schools per year? How many kids die that run away or drop out? How many kids die in car accidents? More than 6 per year? Should'nt we be shutting down the car industry then. How about drug overdoses? More than 6 per year? Should we sue the parents because they didnt intervene? Why isnt anyone slamming the drug dealers or putting their names up here? Dont kids die because of them? Is it more than 6 per year? How many of the drug dealers are accredited or offer diplomas? How many do better in school because of it?
I agree with improving the schools or any institution where kids are involved. We should always have the pressure on to protect the kids, but lets keep it real and fact based.
my 2 pennies ..........
The kids who die are locked up, with the purpose of keeping them alive. They literally have NO access to anything dangerous. Not even shoelaces. So comparing a death rate between a lock-down situation compared to kids driving, or anything else is completely innacurate. For an industry that is supposed to be saving lives, they sure do kill a lot of them. How? These deaths are not caused by falls, car accidents or drug overdoses. These deaths are caused by staff members, MURDERING!!!! (stop calling them accidents) young children. Your mind must be warped if you cannot see this. How about this comparison: a teacher follows a student out into the halls, calls on his radio for 6 other teachers to come and they all tackle, repeatedly hit and sit on the student for 30 minutes. Why? He didn't ask permission to use the bathroom. When the principal arrives 30 minutes later, and they get off of him, the student is dead. Would you send your kid to that school, let alone exact same classroom? Well, YOU DID and continue to do so!! You compartmentalize away the obvious facts of these deaths. Common sense people. Common sense. Stop justifying the murder of these innocent young teens. It's disgusting. ::noway:: ::noway:: ::noway:: ::puke:: What if one of these dead kids was yours? Would you still support the program.
-
QUOTE: With one possible difference. In all the years of religious/military placements were there 150+ deaths? I'm sure there were a few, but the industry has averaged about 6 per year since 1980. And that says nothing of the unreported 'accidents' and injuries. Should 'Emotional Growth' carry such a high risk in terms of danger to life and limb?
I'm calling BS on your numbers there. Six a year? Sorry, but no way, and anyone with a lick of sense knows it. And spare me the fake numbers and names on "survivor" websites.
-
I'm calling BS on your numbers there. Six a year? Sorry, but no way, and anyone with a lick of sense knows it. And spare me the fake numbers and names on "survivor" websites.
try the search function dipshit. programmies like you have been trying this argument for a long... long time. im sure the parents of the dead kids you call fake really appreciate it tho. :tup:
-
On 2005-11-22 10:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Your data and assumptions are very misleading and statistically meaningless. Only 150 people died in the last few hundred years in Military and Religious placements? believable? and 6 children die inside the industry schools per year. Is that good or bad? How many are saved? How many kids die in public or private schools per year? How many kids die that run away or drop out? How many kids die in car accidents? More than 6 per year? Should'nt we be shutting down the car industry then. How about drug overdoses? More than 6 per year? Should we sue the parents because they didnt intervene? Why isnt anyone slamming the drug dealers or putting their names up here? Dont kids die because of them? Is it more than 6 per year? How many of the drug dealers are accredited or offer diplomas? How many do better in school because of it?
I agree with improving the schools or any institution where kids are involved. We should always have the pressure on to protect the kids, but lets keep it real and fact based.
my 2 pennies ..........
The kids who die are locked up, with the purpose of keeping them alive. They literally have NO access to anything dangerous. Not even shoelaces. So comparing a death rate between a lock-down situation compared to kids driving, or anything else is completely innacurate. For an industry that is supposed to be saving lives, they sure do kill a lot of them. How? These deaths are not caused by falls, car accidents or drug overdoses. These deaths are caused by staff members, MURDERING!!!! (stop calling them accidents) young children. Your mind must be warped if you cannot see this. How about this comparison: a teacher follows a student out into the halls, calls on his radio for 6 other teachers to come and they all tackle, repeatedly hit and sit on the student for 30 minutes. Why? He didn't ask permission to use the bathroom. When the principal arrives 30 minutes later, and they get off of him, the student is dead. Would you send your kid to that school, let alone exact same classroom? Well, YOU DID and continue to do so!! You compartmentalize away the obvious facts of these deaths. Common sense people. Common sense. Stop justifying the murder of these innocent young teens. It's disgusting. ::noway:: ::noway:: ::noway:: ::puke:: What if one of these dead kids was yours? Would you still support the program. "
You should go back and reread my post I was talking about STATISTICS, not individual cases. We could sit here all day and voice individual occurrences for and against, for example I am sure there are kids who died from "well intended" drug dealers who were trying to help the kid through a tough time with a little pick me up, but anyway my point is how do the schools measure up STATISTICALLY. If a child dies from teachers sitting on him or her in a public school does that automatically justify sending kids away to boarding schools to keep them safe? NO WAY!!!! But I am sure there are those who would react to the individual occurrences. Kids die everywhere, what we need to do,as responsible people, is to find out who are placing our kids at the most risk and stop them. Are they Drug Dealers, Teachers, Boarding schools? All I am saying is lets look at the data and place our efforts there.
-
If a child dies from teachers sitting on him or her in a public school does that automatically justify sending kids away to boarding schools to keep them safe?
It certainly justifies parents and students not wanting to attend that school, especially if that teacher was still employed and no changes of policy implemented. Let's say that school is real, and a forum exists to discuss specific schools where students who were wronged by said schools can post. Is this so outrageous?
my point is how do the schools measure up STATISTICALLY
You think these programs keep statistics? :lol: Usually deaths are found through local newspaper articles about the death. Unregulated schools hardly keep statistics. Look how popular this board is, compared to struggling losers. That's enough statistics for me! :em:
-
On 2005-11-22 11:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If a child dies from teachers sitting on him or her in a public school does that automatically justify sending kids away to boarding schools to keep them safe?
It certainly justifies parents and students not wanting to attend that school, especially if that teacher was still employed and no changes of policy implemented. Let's say that school is real, and a forum exists to discuss specific schools where students who were wronged by said schools can post. Is this so outrageous?
my point is how do the schools measure up STATISTICALLY
You think these programs keep statistics? :lol: Usually deaths are found through local newspaper articles about the death. Unregulated schools hardly keep statistics. Look how popular this board is, compared to struggling losers. That's enough statistics for me! :em: "
So your the type that follows whats popular, I need more than that to make decisions for myself and family. Sorry you are so angry, I am sure you have good reason, but following something because it is popular isnt going to benefit you in the long run, I've been there. Do some homework (pros and cons) and base your decisions on some hard data, especially if it is an important decision or issue. The data exists, you just have to do a little work to find it.
Okay "Slap" I'll stop preaching.
-
***Your data and assumptions are very misleading and statistically meaningless. Only 150 people died in the last few hundred years in Military and Religious placements? believable? and 6 children die inside the industry schools per year. Is that good or bad?
Who the fuck are you? Why should anyone believe that you ?know? those statistics are misleading and meaningless? In your haste to respond you misunderstood. 150+ kids have died in programs/boot camps/wilderness since 1980. That?s an average of 6 per year. You obviously have seen the list of dead. Prove any name on any list is fake. Google the kids names and read the articles that return. Real simple, but time consuming, if you are vaguely interested in the truth.
Doesn?t matter a whit ?how many are saved?. Parents know the risks associated with driving, football, etc. They and/or their kid choose to participate in those ?risky? activities? just as they choose to eat McDonalds and risk heart disease.
The point that elludes you is:
NO FORM OF THERAPY should subject kids to the risk of injury or death. Period. There is no justification for it.
I wonder how many parents mused, ?He might get killed in a therapeutic treatment environment, but the risk seems less than dying on the streets???? I?m guessing that not one of them contemplated their kid being killed in an ?emotional growth? program.
Yes, by all means, let?s keep it real and fact based. Please post up the names you feel are fake because I would love to rip you to shreds. Your fucking arrogant, know-it-all program attitude is disgusting. Show some respect for the dead and their families.
-
So your the type that follows whats popular, I need more than that to make decisions for myself and family. Sorry you are so angry, I am sure you have good reason, but following something because it is popular isnt going to benefit you in the long run, I've been there. Do some homework (pros and cons) and base your decisions on some hard data, especially if it is an important decision or issue. The data exists, you just have to do a little work to find it.
Okay "Slap" I'll stop preaching.
I, for one, think you are crazy. If you are even considering these programs listed on fornits, I pity you, and especially your family. Good luck, you'll need it. ::blushing::
-
On 2005-11-22 11:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"***Your data and assumptions are very misleading and statistically meaningless. Only 150 people died in the last few hundred years in Military and Religious placements? believable? and 6 children die inside the industry schools per year. Is that good or bad?
Who the fuck are you? Why should anyone believe that you ?know? those statistics are misleading and meaningless? In your haste to respond you misunderstood. 150+ kids have died in programs/boot camps/wilderness since 1980. That?s an average of 6 per year. You obviously have seen the list of dead. Prove any name on any list is fake. Google the kids names and read the articles that return. Real simple, but time consuming, if you are vaguely interested in the truth.
Doesn?t matter a whit ?how many are saved?. Parents know the risks associated with driving, football, etc. They and/or their kid choose to participate in those ?risky? activities? just as they choose to eat McDonalds and risk heart disease.
The point that elludes you is:
NO FORM OF THERAPY should subject kids to the risk of injury or death. Period. There is no justification for it.
I wonder how many parents mused, ?He might get killed in a therapeutic treatment environment, but the risk seems less than dying on the streets???? I?m guessing that not one of them contemplated their kid being killed in an ?emotional growth? program.
Yes, by all means, let?s keep it real and fact based. Please post up the names you feel are fake because I would love to rip you to shreds. Your fucking arrogant, know-it-all program attitude is disgusting. Show some respect for the dead and their families.
"
My name is ANON just like you, but I think our similarities end there. Sorry to Rile things up a tad, not my meaning. Just looking for some facts to hang our hats on, base some decisions on. Seems like we could be knee jerking to each occurrence without looking at the whole picture. For instance are you 5, 10, 25, 100 times more likely to be abused or die in a therapeutic boarding school or are you less likely then say, a private school or vs. letting your kid leave and live on the street. Are drug dealers killing more kids than schools? Are public schools killing less of our kids and if so why? Which kids are at risk, which schools should be monitored or shut down, how do we make those decisions.. How many kids do well ? I think we need to answer these questions and more before we can present any data to potential parents who are going to consider sending there kids there. Its called an informed decision!!!![ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-02-20 12:18 ]
-
On 2005-11-22 11:47:00, OverLord wrote:
"So your the type that follows whats popular, I need more than that to make decisions for myself and family. Sorry you are so angry, I am sure you have good reason, but following something because it is popular isnt going to benefit you in the long run, I've been there. Do some homework (pros and cons) and base your decisions on some hard data, especially if it is an important decision or issue. The data exists, you just have to do a little work to find it.
Okay "Slap" I'll stop preaching.
I, for one, think you are crazy. If you are even considering these programs listed on fornits, I pity you, and especially your family. Good luck, you'll need it. ::blushing:: "
No I am not considering, but thanks for the thoughtful note of those needing pity, I could have used that years ago.
-
QUOTE:Who the fuck are you? Why should anyone believe that you ?know? those statistics are misleading and meaningless? In your haste to respond you misunderstood. 150+ kids have died in programs/boot camps/wilderness since 1980. That?s an average of 6 per year. You obviously have seen the list of dead. Prove any name on any list is fake. Google the kids names and read the articles that return. Real simple, but time consuming, if you are vaguely interested in the truth.
I'm not the one who wrote the post you're responding (reacting) to, but the problem is that the lists out there aren't even accurate. Real kids, real deaths, but most of them didn't die at programs. And it's a huge error to assume newspaper articles are true. All of them have some slant, and I'd estimate half or more have factual errors.
-
In the US public school system for students ages 12-18 years of age between 30 and 60 students out of every 1,000 are victims of a violent crime while on the school premises each year since 1993.
Thats roughly 3 to 6 percent.
For the school year 1999-2000 there were 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides in our school systems. I dont have the ratio that goes along with that, but I am trying to locate it.
Its a start to see how the schools stack up. We should try to locate similar data for Private schools (non boarding) and then Boarding schools.
-
On 2005-11-22 16:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"In the US public school system for students ages 12-18 years of age between 30 and 60 students out of every 1,000 are victims of a violent crime while on the school premises each year since 1993.
Thats roughly 3 to 6 percent.
For the school year 1999-2000 there were 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides in our school systems. I dont have the ratio that goes along with that, but I am trying to locate it.
Its a start to see how the schools stack up. We should try to locate similar data for Private schools (non boarding) and then Boarding schools.
"
Wow where did you get that, its great!!! So what we can do is figure out how many students are attending various schools and start comparing the data. It isnt going to be totally comparable, apples and Apples but its a start. We pull this together and submit it to the local congressmen where the schools exist. This way we dont look like we are a bunch of kids just bitchin about our own lives.
-
How can I help? I am a lawyer.
-
On 2005-11-22 17:10:00, KarenInDallas wrote:
"How can I help? I am a lawyer. "
Great -- A start would be to figure how many students attended various boarding schools and get a rough idea how many were killed or victims of violent crimes. If violent crimes are above 6% or death rate above the national average then we should proceed forward to figure out why and start pushing for changes. If its lower than 6% well I guess we should see what the TBS are doing different. Either way it would clear up a lot of controversy on this board as to whether these schools are more or less abusive than some defined standard. We get tons of individual opinions but no hard data, so we really dont know. I will continue to search for data and post what I find, if anyone wants to jump in and contribute what they know (attendance figures, abuse alligations, deaths etc.)that would be great. I am sure that we can compile some data from archive in this database. I will look around, thanks
-
***If its lower than 6% well I guess we should see what the TBS are doing different.
Like holding kids like prisoners?
Parents might also decrease their kids risk of injury or death by locking them in away from all the 'dangers' in the world.
While we're comparing, we could also compare the number of kids who die in their therapist's office to the number of kids who die while in residential bm programs.
-
We get tons of individual opinions but no hard data, so we really dont know.
Those who have been to a wwasp or similar gulag do know the truth. You believe the lies from the program's marketing materials. You say statistics will solve this debate? Get fucking real. These programs ARE abusive and murderous.
-
On 2005-11-22 17:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"***If its lower than 6% well I guess we should see what the TBS are doing different.
Like holding kids like prisoners?
Parents might also decrease their kids risk of injury or death by locking them in away from all the 'dangers' in the world.
While we're comparing, we could also compare the number of kids who die in their therapist's office to the number of kids who die while in residential bm programs.
"
Thats exactly what I am saying, start comparing and see where the similarities are. Lets not preclude what we may find. Locking kids away is not a solution, you should know better than to say that. Wouldnt we be better served to be able to say something like:"Nationally 6% of children are subjected to violent crimes in public schools while Private Boarding schools are showing an 8% occurance....etc" These are things people can react to and measure, compare school to school, institution to institution, are we improving or getting worse etc. Which schools need to be monitored..... If we saw value in measuring the number of kids who die in doctors offices vs the boarding schools, that could be done but I dont see the value at this point, but I am sure the data is available. This can bring about the change that everyone seems to want!!
-
On 2005-11-22 18:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"We get tons of individual opinions but no hard data, so we really dont know.
Those who have been to a wwasp or similar gulag do know the truth. You believe the lies from the program's marketing materials. You say statistics will solve this debate? Get fucking real. These programs ARE abusive and murderous. "
***You believe the lies from the program's marketing materials ***, No I dont, that is why we need to do this, put the facts in front of everyone. Can we stand in front of a committee and say "I heard of this guy who was killed last year and I talked to 2 others who said they were beat up by their counselors etc.." They would all leave for lunch, you need to put it together.
***Those who have been to a wwasp or similar gulag do know the truth.***
Great, lets get it out there to the people who can make a difference and put it in a form they are use to and can present to their people.
-
On 2005-11-22 19:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
Wouldnt we be better served to be able to say something like:"Nationally 6% of children are subjected to violent crimes in public schools while Private Boarding schools are showing an 8% occurance....etc" These are things people can react to and measure, compare school to school, institution to institution, are we improving or getting worse etc.
Uh, guys? One minor flaw. We don't have any way of knowing what the incidence of vilent crimes are in private schools. We only know what they report. In public schools, the kids themselves can go outside the institution every day and sing like a bird. In a TBS? They simply don't report themselves nor allow the kids to.
Then, the kids get out of the program and out from under dependency on their parents. Then a few years later when they slow down on "celebrating" their final and hard won freedom, then they start talking. And then program supporters mock them by demanding evidence that they themselves are withholding.
It's just like the schoolyard bully who is always polite to the teachers. "Oh yeah? Ga' head and tell! Who will believe you?"
The nature of psychological compulsion is such that those who act under constraint remain under the impression that they are acting on their own initiative. The victim of mind-manipulation does not know that he is a victim. To him the walls of his prison are invisible, and he believes himself to be free. That he is not free is apparent only to other people. His servitude is strictly objective.
--Brave New World Revisited, Aldous Huxley, 1958
_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
-
We can pull some of the info from this board and the deaths cant be hidden for too long. If the death rate is extremely higher than the national average than it may raise an eyebrow with the right people. I am sure if a violent crime was committed the kid would eventually report it. We could do some searchs and bounce it off what people saw here to validate it, weigh its possible use and so on. Worth a try.
-
"I am sure if a violent crime was committed the kid would eventually report it. "
Nope. These programs are very effective, ya know. When I was fighting through the courts to stay out of Straight just prior to coming of age, I didn't understand that what I had seen and had been done to me was abuse. They asked, I said no, not really abuse. I believed at that time that I got sat on for a couple of hours by 4 - 6 girls on staff's order because I deserved it. My crime had been refusing to apologize to Group for running away. Not cussing, far less hurting anybody. Just saying I wasn't sorry, I wanted out and didn't want or need any more "help". That was after well over a year.
I doubt we even find out about all of the deaths. We only hear about it if the media picks up on it. The parents don't usually tell everybody. The parents usually blame the kid.
Here's what one WWASP mother said to a reporter after her son shot himself in the head while they were arguing over his getting sent back for some minor or perceived infraction or other:
"Despite the tragic outcome, Laura says that Teen Help was a godsend. Without it, she says, Corey might have died years earlier"
http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/sit ... esp1.shtml (http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/site-desperate/0702desp1.shtml)
So any study would have to be done like a criminal investigation. There would have to be enforcement of reporting requirements w/ teeth and a baseball bat when necessary. Kids would have to have practical, useful access to not only the outside world, but free time to relax, think for themselves, recreate, chat with friends outside of the institution, etc.
For all that to happen, we have to dispel the pervasive belief that teenagers are vile and violent animals who can't be trusted and should not be believed. Or at LEAST the one that they should be locked up incommunicado w/o criminal conviction. Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown, _Peanuts_ [Charles Schulz]
-
On 2005-11-22 21:20:00, Antigen wrote:
""I am sure if a violent crime was committed the kid would eventually report it. "
Nope. These programs are very effective, ya know. When I was fighting through the courts to stay out of Straight just prior to coming of age, I didn't understand that what I had seen and had been done to me was abuse. They asked, I said no, not really abuse. I believed at that time that I got sat on for a couple of hours by 4 - 6 girls on staff's order because I deserved it. My crime had been refusing to apologize to Group for running away. Not cussing, far less hurting anybody. Just saying I wasn't sorry, I wanted out and didn't want or need any more "help". That was after well over a year.
I doubt we even find out about all of the deaths. We only hear about it if the media picks up on it. The parents don't usually tell everybody. The parents usually blame the kid.
Here's what one WWASP mother said to a reporter after her son shot himself in the head while they were arguing over his getting sent back for some minor or perceived infraction or other:
"Despite the tragic outcome, Laura says that Teen Help was a godsend. Without it, she says, Corey might have died years earlier"
http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/sit ... esp1.shtml (http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/site-desperate/0702desp1.shtml)
So any study would have to be done like a criminal investigation. There would have to be enforcement of reporting requirements w/ teeth and a baseball bat when necessary. Kids would have to have practical, useful access to not only the outside world, but free time to relax, think for themselves, recreate, chat with friends outside of the institution, etc.
For all that to happen, we have to dispel the pervasive belief that teenagers are vile and violent animals who can't be trusted and should not be believed. Or at LEAST the one that they should be locked up incommunicado w/o criminal conviction. Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown, _Peanuts_ [Charles Schulz]
"
I agree, but the reporting problems would be occuring in all areas, kids dieing in school and being dumped off campus or in a river somewhere, drug deals gone wrong and the body is dumped in the school gym etc. but over time these all shake out. The data will tell the story, for example if a school experiences zero crime in an unusual amount of time, this would raise a red flag and spark an investigation, so trying to hid a problem would actually trigger an investigation. National elections in Iraq, when Saddam was in power, showed that he received 100% of the votes, Saddam saw this as being overwhelming loved, the rest of the world saw it differently.
My point is that the data may be flawed but if you collect it consistently year to year it tells a story and leads you to the problem areas. Just because the data is corrupt doesnt render it useless.
-
These schools don't keep data- and if they did- they certainly wouldn't make it public. Take your argument elsewhere, shill. ::kma::
-
On 2005-11-23 15:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"These schools don't keep data- and if they did- they certainly wouldn't make it public. Take your argument elsewhere, shill. ::kma:: "
No one wants to air their dirty laundry, I agree, It will take work. Why are so many against looking at the data? The worst thing that could happen is raise awareness in problem areas, I dont see how this could possibly hurt, anyone?
-
Because the real problem areas are the core methods and beliefs of the cult that runs these places.
I can't show you hard, properly gathered and peer reviewed data. It just doesn't exist, as far as I know. (and if it does, it's probably classified at the highest level... no kidding)
But if you spend some time reading from and talking with people who have been involved w/ all different TBS, bootcamps, day/foster home structured programs and wilderness programs, you'll find distinct differences, but undeniable comonalities.
It's the commonalities that interest me. They all demand confession w/o anything like evidence; like a kangaroo court. They all strictly limit communication w/ the outside world, among new inductees and even among advanced group members. They all operate on a pyramid marketing scheme more than anything. And they all, that I know of, seem to donate a LOT of money to certain political causes and candidates.
There's more, of course. The after effects are also remarkably similar. Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded.
--Rep. Robert L. Henry, TX December 22, 1914 (quoting Lincoln)