Fornits
General Interest => Open Free for All => Topic started by: Anonymous on November 14, 2005, 12:03:00 PM
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(KSL News) Police now say an argument caused a 21-year-old man to jump from a moving truck in South Jordan.
Tyler Poulson was riding with his brothers last night when he became offended by one of them using profanity. Poulson, who recently returned from an LDS mission, threatened to get out of the truck if he continued.
One of the men, not thinking he would, told Poulson to.
Earlier police said the car was going about 35 miles an hour when Poulson opened the door and jumped. He was pronounced dead on scene.
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=128255 (http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=128255)
..... um... :???:
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dear lord,
isn't that taking one's religion a bit too far. talk about rigid. one less control freak in the world.
is suicide a sin amongst mormons? he'd rather commit a sin than hear someone else speak 'profanity'?
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Well, that's a good start.
Oh shit, I didn't just say that. That was wrong.
I'm just kidding, I wouldn't want all the Mormons to disappear. So many advances in jello design have been made due to their tireless efforts. I mean, who knew vienna sausages could float?
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[ This Message was edited by: sorry... try another castle on 2006-01-14 19:14 ]
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Cool, is that all one has to do to
tell the Mormon evangilists that
the Book of Mormon is not welcomed ...
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I never met a book I didn't like. But ask yourself this. What would a guy like that do w/ a kid under his authority who persisted in telling him to fuck off, for whatever reason. Ask anybody who's spent time in a WWASP program. By far and away, this is better.
Never mind what they say, watch what they do. And no, I don't think all Mormons are inherently evil. I do, however, think they've got quite a large and oblique blind spot when it comes to their fellow saints; most religious people are like that to some degree.
...the coercive collectivist State is distinctly uninterested in the cultivation of intelligence and wisdom. This is understandable...for the State has no uses to which persons of intelligence and wisdom can be put.
--Albert Jay Nock.
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Dear Antigen,
I agree with you in that most religous people are like that to some degree. A lot of zealots from all regions of the world are quick to spin disasters as a sign of God's displeasure.
But I do not think that religion holds the key. I will never find God in a church, a synagog, a mass, or any other religious institution. I seek God within myself. I know now that I am not guilty of anything, that I have forgiven everyone, realize I am a spirit, and that I am my own master. I follow the principles of the Bhagavad Gita. I have read the Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ and know that Jesus came as a great realized soul from God to teach us how to pattern our lives after his and that we will all be resurected like he was. I believe all religions of the world came from the same tree, yet have branched out and segmented. It is the principles of the religions I seek which are the roots of the tree. There have been more wars fought by religous zealots thinking there religion was right. How stupid!
There have been a lot of great souls sent here to teach us if we would only listen. Martin Luther King was one that comes to mind.
Kind Regards,
Chuck
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Yeah, Chuck. It's not the various doctrins. It's how people live it (or not).
The public concience is entertaining some very interesting discussion on the topic just lately. Jimmy Carter has broken w/ the longstanding tradition of former presidents not criticizing sitting presidents. He's an old guy, and seems to be a sincere, compassionate and level headed man. Evidently, he think's it's so important for us to examine the fundamentalist zealotry in today's politics that he's written a book on the topic and has been doing the book tour thing like a much younger man. As I recall (which is not much, cause I was very young when he was prez) he has always demonstrated a pretty nifty understanding that force of law and other types of coersion are the worst, the last resort, to achieving a compassionate, moral society. He took a non coersion stand on marijuana and still does so, to some extent, even on issues as deeply rooted as abortion.
There's a difference between sincere religious conviction and a manifest desire to live up to a high moral standard and the pervasive manifest desire to blugeon others into acting on one's own religious beliefs.
The man in this story pretty clearly demonstrated a militant and irrational desire to control the his brother's behavior. Sorry, folks. I wish that, instead of jumping out of a moving car the dude had come to realize he was going about things the wrong way. But he didn't. And, given a choice between someone like that taking his evolutionary lumps and his living on to impose his militant brand of religion on non-consenting others, this is better. By far and away, much better. And it's a cautionary tale to others who might otherwise make the same mistake.
Understand that legal and illegal are political, and often arbitrary,
categorizations; use and abuse are medical, or clinical, distinctions.
--Abbie Hoffman
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Does this jumper get a Darwin award?
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I tend to view the situation differently.
Firstly - I do not think he intended to die - indeed, I believe he most likely never gave the possibility a thought.
Secondly - yes, of corse he was attempting excessive control - but I view such extreme attempts at control, as a symptom of mental illness of some sort.
He could have been a victim of any number of possible illnesses that might have made him this rigid, irrational and impulsive.
I don't think it has anything what so ever to do with his faith. I think he was very ill. And very sad.
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Didn't intend to commit suicide? Then was it manipulation? Why not ask the driver to pull over and get out? Or jump out at the next light? Or plug his ears while repeating na-na-na-na for god's sake. It's not like the words literally caused his ear drums physical pain.
Mental illness? I guess some consider religious zealotry a mental illness. More like mental brainwashing. Someone conditioned that boy well. Should they be responsible for his death?
My sister went through a zealot period. No one in the family could stand to be around her. It wasn't a mental illness and she got over it when she realized how ridiculous she was being. Sure made us miserable for a couple of years.
Oh, and the time she disappeared for two weeks. APB out. We expected the worse. Packed up and moved all her things out of her dorm. She sashays in one day and tells us how some bible totin' zealot picked her up at the bus station, took her to their compound and then wouldn't bring her back to civilization. I can't even remember how she got out of that one. But, he had a bible. He was to be trusted, right?
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On 2005-11-15 21:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
But, he had a bible. He was to be trusted, right?
Exactly! Big problem w/ that. Arial Sharon has a Torah and he says he believes in it's teachings. Even when high ranking members of his own military refuse, on moral grounds, to carry out his orders, people still mistake criticizm of Israel's behavior and America's nearly unconditional support for antisemitism.
This is were it gets darkly tragic. My guess about the young man who jumped from a moving car is that he thought he was doing God's will and so God would protect him. My belief is that the "God" of all of the religious doctrins that stand the test of time is really just an allagory or an attempt at defining the imutable laws of physics and nature. "God" will protect you if you know, understand and seek earnestly to live within those laws. "God" will most certainly punish anyone who jumps from a moving vehicle, no matter what anybody believes.
science is the record of dead religions.
--Oscar Wilde
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I simply don't believe the man's faith - weather Zealous or not - is behind his jumping.
I think the man was mentally ill, and so not rational and very impulsive.
I personally have a family member who jumped out of moving cars for little or no reason.
I used to be a nervous wreck driving them anywhere, even tho they never did it when with me.
Is it an attempt at manipulation? Possibly - but possibly not.
You can't expect to be able to make sense of it, b/c it is crazy behavior.
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On 2005-11-16 06:50:00, Antigen wrote:
"
On 2005-11-15 21:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
But, he had a bible. He was to be trusted, right?
Exactly! Big problem w/ that. Arial Sharon has a Torah and he says he believes in it's teachings. Even when high ranking members of his own military refuse, on moral grounds, to carry out his orders, people still mistake criticizm of Israel's behavior and America's nearly unconditional support for antisemitism.
This is were it gets darkly tragic. My guess about the young man who jumped from a moving car is that he thought he was doing God's will and so God would protect him. My belief is that the "God" of all of the religious doctrins that stand the test of time is really just an allagory or an attempt at defining the imutable laws of physics and nature. "God" will protect you if you know, understand and seek earnestly to live within those laws. "God" will most certainly punish anyone who jumps from a moving vehicle, no matter what anybody believes.
science is the record of dead religions.
--Oscar Wilde
"
Be careful criticizing Israel... might be labeled an anti-semite! :lol:
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On 2005-11-16 08:19:00, BuzzKill wrote:
I simply don't believe the man's faith - weather Zealous or not - is behind his jumping.
I think the man was mentally ill, and so not rational and very impulsive.
I don't see any contradiction there, Buzz. Do you believe zealot faith is behind suicide bombing? I do. And I think they're mentally ill. Moreover, I think an environment of zealotry and repression fosters just exactly that variety of mental illness. I've seen it in action, too.I don't believe in God. My god is patriotism. Teach a man to be a good citizen and you have solved the problem of life.
--Andrew Carnegie, Scottish-born American industrialist and philanthropist
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On 2005-11-16 08:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
Be careful criticizing Israel... might be labeled an anti-semite! :rofl:
Them that knows me knows me well, all the rest can go to hell.Faith is believing something you know ain't true.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
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Well, I guess I would say the suicide bombers are brainwashed and indoctrinated - which can make them susceptible to doing crazy things - like strap on explosives and walk into a crowd and self detonate. Yes, this seems crazy, but it isn't mental illness.
With the "jumper" in this story - he may also have been brain washed and indoctrinated - but I am of the opinion he was also a mental patient of some sort, and that this has nothing to do with his faith. In other words - this man would have done the same, had he been raised in most any religion, or none.
The bomber acts as a result of years (or at least months) of indoctrination. Nothing about their actions are impulsive. They are much thought out and done very deliberately.
The jumper acted in a totally impulsive way - with little or no thought about actions and consequences. This is a hallmark of mental illness.
His Faith seems to be a factor, partly b/c he was complaining about cursing; and partly just b/c his faith is known for some pretty controlling and rigid charters.
But I think he might have done the same, if for instance, his brother had been singing a song he didn't like; or eating a doughnut; or driving to slow/fast - Most anything at all might have been a trigger.
Now to be clear - I AM only theorizing. I don't know what was in the man's head - and you might be right. I base my opinion on others I have known, who on occasion, opened the door and stepped out of moving cars. Faith had nothing to do with it.
Of corse - it could also be a combination of the two factors.
I have read several articles about how stressful the Mormon mission trips can be. Stress can/will make any kind of un-treated mental disorder worse - and so there may be a connection between his faith and his impulsive deadly action, and we are both of us right.
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On 2005-11-16 13:39:00, BuzzKill wrote:
"Well, I guess I would say the suicide bombers are brainwashed and indoctrinated - which can make them susceptible to doing crazy things - like strap on explosives and walk into a crowd and self detonate. Yes, this seems crazy, but it isn't mental illness.
:question: :question: :question:
Then what is mental illness?
With the "jumper" in this story - he may also have been brain washed and indoctrinated - but I am of the opinion he was also a mental patient of some sort, and that this has nothing to do with his faith.
Why do you think that? Hadn't he just gotten back from his mission?
In other words - this man would have done the same, had he been raised in most any religion, or none.
Right, it's not the particular religion. It's the difference between a philisophical fondness for a particular theology and fanaticizm.
The bomber acts as a result of years (or at least months) of indoctrination. Nothing about their actions are impulsive. They are much thought out and done very deliberately.
And that makes them more sane than the other guy? By what reason?
The jumper acted in a totally impulsive way - with little or no thought about actions and consequences. This is a hallmark of mental illness.
Really! You think it's more sane if you take your time, plan it out, think about it and then go through with it?
I base my opinion on others I have known, who on occasion, opened the door and stepped out of moving cars. Faith had nothing to do with it.
Wait, Karen... you think that because you knew a diagnosed person who jumped out of a car that all everyone who jums out of a moving car must fit the same dx?
Of corse - it could also be a combination of the two factors.
I have read several articles about how stressful the Mormon mission trips can be. Stress can/will make any kind of un-treated mental disorder worse - and so there may be a connection between his faith and his impulsive deadly action, and we are both of us right. "
Yeah, very similar to any other high pressure cult. Like, say, for instance the WWASP programs or the Straight/KHK style indoctrination centers. And guess what? That sort and intensity of stress can drive perfectly normal people around the bend, too.
Infidel: In New York, one who does not believe in the Christian religion; in Constantinople, one who does.
--Ambrose Bierce
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//That sort and intensity of stress can drive perfectly normal people around the bend, too. //
Oh yes, I know. Thats the point really.
I guess one way to explain my hair splitting, is that the mental patient will be ill, no matter what faith they belong to, or what their life circumstance might be; where as the rabid, murdering bomber, takes some effort to create. They must be made that way; but the mental patient is that way (Ill - not necessarily violent or suicidal)
One is wildly irrational and extremely impulsive with zero or little self control.
The other wildly irrational and coldly calculating, with complete self control.
Its the cold calculation and control that exempts them from being mentally ill; altho by our societal standards, they are certainly "crazy".
Of corse there are some personality disorders that are indeed mental illnesses, that a person can have and be very cold, calculating, organized and dangerous - but these disorders are not recognized as mental illness from a legal stand point. But then again, some of the most disorganized and psychotic of persons don't meet the legal test for "insane" in some states.
You have cases like Andera Yates, and Diana Dial (I think is her name) who were both floridly psychotic - and very organized in their crimes.
So - maybe the bomber in your scenario is suffering from a kind of induced psychosis.
//Wait, Karen... you think that because you knew a diagnosed person who jumped out of a car that all everyone who jumps out of a moving car must fit the same dx? //
No - not necessarily - but its not like jumping out of moving cars is a common thing. When it does happen, it seems reasonable to suspect a common cause. However - I did admit it is just a theory, based on my limited experience.
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He probably never thought he was gonna die. He was just taking the high road and riding his high horse. In that religion utter contempt for others not following the guidelines (ie swearing)is not only normal but highly applauded. Had he survived I'm sure the next time he was to speak in church he would refer to this story with a big pat on the back for himself for being so diligent and dedicated on his quest to abolish all the evil influences of satan.
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Oh yeah. My mother once utterly failed to react to a car wreck right in front of her. The two cars smashed into each other then bounced apart just enough and just in time to let her car pass w/o hitting either one. She and my brother were damned lucky, right? Wrong! Not according to my mom. See, according to her, it's God's will that his followers be completely oblivious to any threat, to not think or react, but to just wander blitely through life expecting God to suspend some of his favorite laws of physics on their behalf.
She did the right thing, thanked God for fucking up those other people in order to look after his own faithful child and had a very pleasant weekend.
The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma.
--Abraham Lincoln, U.S. President