Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Straight, Inc. and Derivatives => Topic started by: Helena Handbasket on November 13, 2005, 10:20:00 PM
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This is a LIFE - specific response to Sue, who wrote:
There MAY have been a couple isolated boarder-line "abuse" situations at one or 2 of these programs, but it's a CROCK if you believe this (what these callers said) went on for YEARS and YEARS, daily at these programs.
I was in LIFE and NEVER witnessed what was said here. Most of these callers were TROUBLED teens, with horrible attitudes, arrest records, drop outs from school and their parents emrolled them in HEAVEY, long term treatment. It's not SUMMER CAMP. They were made to think about their attitudes, actions, and wreckless ways. Who wants to do that?!? There were lots of rules, and guidelines to follow. It WAS strict. But these abuse reports are almost laughable. They never completed their treatment/counseling, and now need to BLAME someone/something on their current failures. It's an EASY target.
I graduated the LIFE program, learned how to DEAL with reality instead of get into drugs and trouble, and improved my self-esteem tremendously. I made life-ling friends there, whom I remain friends with today (20 yrs later). I have NO regrets about being there, as it helped me and SO MANY others. I appreciate that my folks didn't sit by and watch me get worse. They cared enough to TO DO something, before it was too late.
I believe many of these "survivors" (I have trouble not laughing at this term) would love to somehow get $ out of all this. It's really sad that this is their plight SO MANY years later.
My response, as posted on http://radioinsidescoop.com/mt-posts-ar ... 00506.html (http://radioinsidescoop.com/mt-posts-archive/000506.html)
Ginger mentioned that LIFE wasn't as violent as Straight, and I tend to agree. Many of the abuses that I've heard committed at Straight, I did not witness at LIFE. However, I did personally witness physical abuse, denial of bathroom priveleges, and denial of privacy. I personally was forced to sleep with my legs intertwined with my oldcomer - something that comes very close to sexual impropriety.
However, I will ask Sue - and anyone else who cares to answer - how you consider this okay? How do you consider slapping kids, sitting on them, pulling their hair, forcibly "motiviating" (arm flapping) them, and accusing them (of drug use) without proof - helpful?
Sue, if you gave your kids this "treatment", you'd be up on abuse charges in no time flat, and you know it.
I don't know what your agenda is. Most of ours is to simply stop abuse. What is your problem with that?[ This Message was edited by: Helena Handbasket on 2005-11-13 19:29 ]
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These parrots are making me tired.
Well, I motivated so hard that I got broken blood vessels in my fingers, and tennis elbows. Then, when I could barely motivate any more, I was stood up and confronted for not motivating hard enough. Yeah, that was real helpful.
Then, there was the time I was in a "bench restraint" for a couple of hours. The 2 guys holding my arms put such pressure (trying to make my elbow joint go the wrong way) that I couldn't even move my arms for maybe an hour afterward. It was incredibly painful too. No, that wasn't torture.
And then there was the hair pulling and slapping from Petermann. And the kidnapping she helped plan, when a fat guy sat on my back until I almost passed out, and told me if I pulled anything, he would sit on me the whole way to Mississippi (Bethel). Yes, death threats are very constructive ways to deal with kids.
But I'm sure you never witnessed anything like that, did you Sue?
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Helen Petermann has evil powers, but I considered the LIFE program quite silly.I was there in 1982. Nothing like STRAIGHT INC.
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On 2005-11-13 21:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Helen Petermann has evil powers, but I considered the LIFE program quite silly.I was there in 1982. Nothing like STRAIGHT INC. "
lol
LIFE wasn't fun, but it wasn't abusive to any extreme. You didn't HAVE to motivate. So if you broke blood vessels doing it, own up to it pal.
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LIFE wasn't fun, but it wasn't abusive to any extreme. You didn't HAVE to motivate. So if you broke blood vessels doing it, own up to it pal."
:eek: Didn't have to motivate? Are we talking about the same program? Y'know, the one across from the Tervis Tumbler factory? The one headed up by Petermann? The one where if you didn't flap your arms, they were flapped for you??
Oh sure... you could resist that as well. But how would you "make your phase"? Hmmm?
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On 2005-11-14 06:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"LIFE wasn't fun, but it wasn't abusive to any extreme. You didn't HAVE to motivate. So if you broke blood vessels doing it, own up to it pal."
You're right. You didn't *have* to do anything. Nah, I think my energy was best spent kicking and screaming. It got me out of that torture chamber a lot faster.
And it only got me sat on because I didn't fight hard enough. If I would have kicked in Peterman's skull, the worst thing that could have happened was that I would have wound up in a nice SAFE jail cell.[ This Message was edited by: TimeBomb on 2005-11-14 09:21 ]
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On 2005-11-14 08:07:00, TimeBomb wrote:
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On 2005-11-14 06:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"LIFE wasn't fun, but it wasn't abusive to any extreme. You didn't HAVE to motivate. So if you broke blood vessels doing it, own up to it pal."
You're right. You didn't *have* to do anything. Nah, I think my energy was best spent kicking and screaming. It got me out of that torture chamber a lot faster.
And it only got me sat on because I didn't fight hard enough. If I would have kicked in Peterman's skull, the worst thing that could have happened was that I would have wound up in a nice SAFE jail cell.[ This Message was edited by: TimeBomb on 2005-11-14 09:21 ]"
And didn't you opt for jail later in life, Shane? What kind of record do you have (at this point)?
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On 2005-11-14 18:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
"And didn't you opt for jail later in life, Shane? What kind of record do you have (at this point)?"
Let's see... multiple counts of kidnapping, torture, false imprisonment, child abuse...
No, wait, that's what *some* people would have if the law was actually enforced.
And since you asked, I have never been convicted of ANYTHING in my entire life. As a matter of fact, I've only had one traffic ticket (non-moving) in the last 13 years. My pilots license is clean too. But I'm not sure what that has to do with gulags anyway.
[ This Message was edited by: TimeBomb on 2005-11-14 22:29 ]
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"And didn't you opt for jail later in life, Shane? What kind of record do you have (at this point)?"
Red Herrings (http://http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html) and Ad Hominem (http://http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html) attacks seem to two favorite rebuttal tools of the supporters.
Why can't you just answer the question?
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The reason I posted that I never endured nor witnessed abuse at LIFE is simply to state the truth. WHY would I NOT jump in with you all if I did?!? Many of you state that "these programs" are harmful and abusive to all , when that was NOT my experience at ALL (nor was it for hundreds of others I witnessed through my time there).
Obviously this really bothers you as it does NOT support your claims. I won't sit back and say nothing when I know different. That's what my problem is with you making ACROSS THE BOARD claims on all teen drug programs. It seems easy to just JOIN THE GANG here and say, "Oh Yea , I was abused too! I ate PBJ sandwiches, and couldn't watch TV for months! TORTUROUS." But I will not.
Seems that many of you may have displaced anger. How did you GET to these programs? A parent? Maybe that's who your issues are with?
You have SO MUCH to say about how awful these programs are, yet you offer NOTHING as an alternative. Nothing. No positive energies here.
It just is interesting that you can't seem to accept that what you state was YOUR experience, was not that of everyone. Only shooting comments out of "your still brainwashed", or "your being paid to comtinue torturing kids" when I or anyone else posts.
So, keep on your plight if that is your CALLING in life. I'm just stating the OTHER side of this story.
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On 2005-11-15 08:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
" The reason I posted that I never endured nor witnessed abuse at LIFE is simply to state the truth. WHY would I NOT jump in with you all if I did?!? Many of you state that "these programs" are harmful and abusive to all , when that was NOT my experience at ALL (nor was it for hundreds of others I witnessed through my time there).
You're absolutely right - you should jump in. But instead of personally attacking people why don't you challenge the facts? How is it that I and several others witnessed different things?
I can think of at least two people by name that I saw "taken down". One of those names appeared on the reunion board, so I'm going to guess that she won't corroborate the story. Furthermore - I can't trust my memory that is was actually that person. The other person I've come to know personally, but she doesn't have the capacity to get involved in this, and I'm not going to "out" her, like so many jerks like to do for sadistic pleasure around here. If she's reading, she'll know who I mean. I know I saw quite a few "taken down" and shuffled to the back while the staff at the time led us in a chorus of Zip-a-dee-doo-dah.
Hell, I remember one going down right next me - damned near knocked me outta the pew.
I find it hard to believe that only I and two other people I know from there have witnessed this. But then again, you find it hard to believe that we did - so either something drastically changed during your group or ours, or someone's not telling the whole truth.
Obviously this really bothers you as it does NOT support your claims. I won't sit back and say nothing when I know different. That's what my problem is with you making ACROSS THE BOARD claims on all teen drug programs. It seems easy to just JOIN THE GANG here and say, "Oh Yea , I was abused too! I ate PBJ sandwiches, and couldn't watch TV for months! TORTUROUS." But I will not.
No, feeding a kid PB&J is not abusive. But keeping a kid on a diet of PB&J? What's the motivation? What's the purpose? What kind of outcome is that supposed to produce?
No TV - again, not torture. However, what do you call it when you withold all outside information from someone, and then one day tell them we're being nuked? Again - what kind of "therapy" is that?
Was the old 80's kitsch phrase PSYCHE!!! supposed to be funny when you're told you're gonna die in the next hour?
No makeup or cosmetics - fine. But what was the lack of personal hygiene supposed to prove? Why couldn't you use acne soap if you had zits or shave your legs? Why could the guys shave?
I could go on and on. But you're right... these little things taken on their own aren't "harmful", but they weren't designed to make you appreciate your "natural beauty" or spark conversation about "The Day After".
Seems that many of you may have displaced anger. How did you GET to these programs? A parent? Maybe that's who your issues are with?
Yep - good point. But the parents weren't the "professionals", were they? Yeah, kids did drugs. Some kids might have had real problems. Some kids in there did not. How do you explain that? Don't you think that if you're going to "diagnose" someone with drug use even - you should have a positive lab test to back it up?
So yeah, the main problem is the parents - and I know there had to have been more than one parent who dumped their kid in there for the wrong reasons - and none of the professionals ever weeded them out - why?
You have SO MUCH to say about how awful these programs are, yet you offer NOTHING as an alternative. Nothing. No positive energies here.
It just is interesting that you can't seem to accept that what you state was YOUR experience, was not that of everyone. Only shooting comments out of "your still brainwashed", or "your being paid to comtinue torturing kids" when I or anyone else posts.
So, keep on your plight if that is your CALLING in life. I'm just stating the OTHER side of this story."
I'm not going to post redundantly - the links to the recent media attention are all over this board. Before that, letters have been written, protests have been staged, reporters have been talked to, investigations have been done, lawsuits are underway... oh, and places have been shut down. Have you been here (http://http://www.isaccorp.org/) yet? Evidence has been gathered.
Have you seen the KHK video? Did you know that KHK was started when kids from LIFE were bussed up to Cincinatti?
The focus of that video (which is hauntingly the same, IMHO) is not about abuse but brainwashing
So yes - please jump in - but at least address the methods and tell how you think they worked.
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Where are we going, and what are we doing in this handbasket??[ This Message was edited by: Helena Handbasket on 2005-11-15 12:58 ]
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Helana writes:
Yep - good point. But the parents weren't the "professionals", were they? Yeah, kids did drugs. Some kids might have had real problems. Some kids in there did not. How do you explain that? Don't you think that if you're going to "diagnose" someone with drug use even - you should have a positive lab test to back it up?
So yeah, the main problem is the parents - and I know there had to have been more than one parent who dumped their kid in there for the wrong reasons - and none of the professionals ever weeded them out - why? "
Though the programs were named as adolescent drug rehabs, it is my understanding that one hit off a joint, or one drink of alcohol was enough for someone to enter. There were NO drugs available while you were in the program, so that is NOT what was addressed mostly. The issues that WERE addressed (mostly) were attitude, self-esteem, identifying feelings, owning up to actions, taking responsibilities and communicating productively. Drugs were a symptom of the problem. The HEART of the problem was what started kids to the path of wanting to drink or use (those issues listed above).
I never stated that kids weren't restrained. I did see that. But never for fun, only for the safety of those around them. Many kids were full of anger and rage, and it wasn't uncommen for them to bust on someone next to them. You bet your ass I'm gonna grab an arm or leg of someone next to me raging, than to get hit, kicked or let them do that to anyone else.
I did not enjoy standing up and talking about the crap I pulled at home, the stupid things I did when using, and how low my self esteem was from the beginning, BUT I'm SO glad I did. I can remember standing up on 1st phase and the staff working on gettig me to bring out my VERY muffled anger (contstructively). They had others mimick me, and it WORKED. I eventually allowed myself to EXPRESS my REAL thoughts and angry feelings. It was a turning point for me. It boosted my self confidence and I learned to not worry about how others thought so much, but to be honest with MY feelings.
Once I got down to the root of some issues within my self, it was uphill from there. I had a SHORT drug list, but plenty of irresponsible and negative attitudes and behaviors to deal with. THAT's what was discussed in raps. How to improve with actions, and thoughts (M.I.'s and R.S.A.'s).
I learned humility, appreciation, respect, resonsibility, self control... and the list goes on. Had my parents asked me if I'd LIKE to go work on myself through day in and day out counseling for the next year, I would have NEVER said yes. Never. Do I now wish I hadn't gone through it?? No.
I had a friend who got into depper trouble than I did, after I entered the program. Her name was in the paper while I was in the program, for Burglery. My parents reconnected with her mom and told her if my big improvements since entering the program. Her mom did not bring her daughter to the program. A couple years after I finsihed the program, my friend's mug shots were on the fron of the local section of the paper. Murdered (stabbed to death) and left on the side of the road. I've always wondered if things would have been different... maybe.
As for parenst dropping their kids off, well that COULD have happened IF you were an out-of-towner. However, if you lived IN area, it was a HUGE committment as a family to be in the program, and rules had to be followed. I know my family committed, and were a "host home" for about 1 year. Kids stayed with us almost EVERY NIGHT. I had one friend who was a "permanent foster sister" (as we called them) from the other coast. We are good friends today (20 yrs later). We were at each others weddings and our kids play together. Her parents and my parents stay in touch, and our dads play golf together sometimes. That's a lot of years of good memories. Doubt our paths would have ever crossed without the program. I thankful that they did. So, those parents who were TRULEY concerned and committed, reaped success from the program.
Parents who couldn't abide were called and the child was terminated from the program. I saw it happen several times. The program wouldn't work if the family did not work on themselves as well. Some parents pulled their kids when it became too much committment for them. I saw that happen many times too.
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Why are you spouting off nothing but program dogma and nonsense?
For starters, any program that takes in kids who arent drug addicts for drug treatment (whether or not they do 'emotional growth') is bullshit, Period. End of story. It was marketed as a DRUG TREATMENT program!!!
Secondly, "emotional growth" is bullshit. Its not standardized, its not proven to be necessary, and waht you call 'emotional growth' (along with all the dogma you filled your post with) is easily demonstrated to be a vehicle for behavior modification, aka brainwashing.
Thirdly, you seem to give us a roundabout arguement of "well, sometimes you gotta do hard things, and if its hard to do you should do it" with all your nonsense about how you didnt like this, that was hard, bla bla bla. I guess its okay if I beat you up and make you do things you dont like arbitrarily because its hard? NO, ITS NOT.
Fourthly, NO PROGRAM IS SET UP, LISCENSED, OR CAPABLE OF HANDLING PEOPLE WITH ACTUAL DRUG ADDICTION OR WHO HAVE EMOTIONAL PROBLEMS OR VIOLENT OUTBURSTS. They dont have a full nursing staff, they dont have the equipment and facilities to handle IV fluids (for drug rehab), they obviously didnt do real blood tests (but might have SAID so when they drew blood, as I know Helena there went in clean as a whistle!) though they might have done 'drug screenings' like what employers would do, they dont have trained staff to handle emotional and psychological outbursts, they only RESTRAINED them (instead of just letting them yell it out and leave them the fuck alone) and on top of that when restraint was necessary, or done at all, they didnt have trained staff - they had OTHER 'PATIENTS' Do it.
Fifthly, I know for a fact that if a parent didn't work the program the kid could very well stay. But Id rather let Helena explain what her mom did and didnt do (well, Ill be blunt, her mom did exactly jack shit!!!).
All the other shit you threw in is just a red herring... no, the whole catch of the day. Stop clouding it and answer the points made, dont add in your programmie spiel about emotional growth and working on yourself and about how necessary it was. We dont care! We dont care if it was hard or if it was necessary, so why did you bring it up? Hell I KNOW its just bullshit thats either designed or came to be good at breaking you down (constant disclosure, being ATTACKED with the raps and relating and other psychologically damaging bullshit, humiliation from being watched 24/7, no fun, no time to yourself, and basically everything being as unpleasant or at least non-fun as possobile) or isolating you from the outside world.. like NO radio, NO TV, NO news, NO school, no NOTHING.... and like Helena said, saying youre going to die from a Nuclear missile IN THE 19 FUCKIN 80s.
Stop dodging and skimming over the abuse and what she said and giving us your bullshit about emotinal growth and how much you feel it was necessary and fess up to the truth about it. The facts are the facts and people who were there and the proof in the pudding (how KHK is NOW... and its a LIFE spinoff) is the pink elephant thats standing right beside you in this room we call Fornits.May the fleas of one thousand llamas infest your armpits
--One ticked off sysadmin
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On 2005-11-15 08:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
The reason I posted that I never endured nor witnessed abuse at LIFE is simply to state the truth.
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Obviously this really bothers you as it does NOT support your claims. I
No, Sue. That's not it. I wasn't in LIFE. I went to school w/ a couple of girls who were, though. They got to wear makeup. We weren't allowed to talk to them, but they didn't have any restriction on talking ot us. It was a small, fundie Baptist school, so they were allowed to be more social w/ the other students than we were, too. On top of that, I've heard from some of the people who were witdrawn from Straight and put in LIFE. So far, every one says it was not as over the top as Straight.
The only time I was in the building was an attempted intake when I was 18. It was still a couple of hourse spent with a couple of very brainwashed young ladies, trying to convince me that they knew more about me than I did. But it wasn't anywhere near as ... what, hostile? hateful? intimidating? as Straight. And they let me walk out after a couple of hours. I don't know how much that had to do w/ ongoing HRS investigations into holding adults illegally or if it was just that they weren't that totally militant.
However, not as bad as Straight is not really saying much.
Let's get this hammered out. When were you there? Cause when Sara and Shane were there, they did do restraints, forced motivating, isolation, coerced confessions, group shaming, kids in authority over other kids and all the rest.
Do you think it's OK to do those things? Or are you saying they're just making it all up?
You know, too many weirdos out there. At least with you people I know WHY you are weird!!!
Kady
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Ok, I get it, Sue. You didn't "see" any abuse because you think you and everyone else there deserved it. That's really sad. I remember thinking that way for a short while after I got out. When HRS asked me, I said the same thing. I didn't mention that I had been sat on for two hours for refusing to apologize to Group for splitting. And I didn't mention that, after that, they had 3 or 4 girls shove me around a timeout room, shouting and poking at me tag team style for a couple hours more. Didn't even mention the broken nose I got out of that.
Here's the logic. No, I never thought anyone deserved to be treated that way. But then, we weren't allowed to think (no getting into your head!) The way I saw it at the time, I knew they'd do that if I didn't say what they wanted to hear, therefore it wouldn't be "honest" to call it abuse.
But it's been twenty damned years! Snap out of it already!
Scoundrels are predictable, but you're a man of honor and that frightens me.
Robert Heinlein, Glory Road.
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Though the programs were named as adolescent drug rehabs, it is my understanding that one hit off a joint, or one drink of alcohol was enough for someone to enter. There were NO drugs available while you were in the program, so that is NOT what was addressed mostly. The issues that WERE addressed (mostly) were attitude, self-esteem, identifying feelings, owning up to actions, taking responsibilities and communicating productively. Drugs were a symptom of the problem. The HEART of the problem was what started kids to the path of wanting to drink or use (those issues listed above).
You sound EXACTLY like someone else I talked to from LIFE.
Is this why every introduction began with "Hi, I'm Sara, and my drug list is... "
Is this why every pre-open meeting, people would come around polling you for additions to your drug list and any stashes to report?
Is this why you even use the phrase to this day "when I was using"?
Because the main focus wasn't drugs?
Ok, the short form of my story - no drugs... EVER. No problems communicating, no problem with self esteem or motivation. Honor roll, two jobs, volunteer work. Got it?
Staff didn't. Wanna explain?
I never stated that kids weren't restrained. I did see that. But never for fun, only for the safety of those around them. Many kids were full of anger and rage, and it wasn't uncommen for them to bust on someone next to them. You bet your ass I'm gonna grab an arm or leg of someone next to me raging, than to get hit, kicked or let them do that to anyone else.
Why not just get outta the way and let 'em go? If they wanted out so badly - why couldn't they leave? Why couldn't they make a phone call. You gotta wonder why those "ragers" felt so strongly about getting the hell outta there.
And who gave you the authority to restrain a minor child?
Who gave LIFE the power to hold minor children hostage without due process?
And who gave people on either side of me authority to hold my hair back and flap my arms around? I was just sitting there - minding my own business. Explain that.
I did not enjoy standing up and talking about the crap I pulled at home, the stupid things I did when using, and how low my self esteem was from the beginning, BUT I'm SO glad I did. I can remember standing up on 1st phase and the staff working on gettig me to bring out my VERY muffled anger (contstructively). They had others mimick me, and it WORKED. I eventually allowed myself to EXPRESS my REAL thoughts and angry feelings. It was a turning point for me. It boosted my self confidence and I learned to not worry about how others thought so much, but to be honest with MY feelings.
I don't get it. What does this have to do with the real world?
When you're on the job, and you have a customer/client/whomever "raging" in your face, as they sometimes do (Yes, I'm being hypothetical - but I deal with the public, so I stick to what I know), do you restrain them and mimick them and use the tactics you were taught in the program?
Once I got down to the root of some issues within my self, it was uphill from there. I had a SHORT drug list, but plenty of irresponsible and negative attitudes and behaviors to deal with. THAT's what was discussed in raps. How to improve with actions, and thoughts (M.I.'s and R.S.A.'s).
I learned humility, appreciation, respect, resonsibility, self control... and the list goes on. Had my parents asked me if I'd LIKE to go work on myself through day in and day out counseling for the next year, I would have NEVER said yes. Never. Do I now wish I hadn't gone through it?? No.
How is it that every other kid learns this stuff through their parents or on their own??
I'll tell ya what - in plain english - my custodial parent was and is a TOTAL fuckup. So assuming I learned nothing in LIFE (which I've been accused of, and I will GLADLY accept!) and I didn't get it at home - how in the hell do ya think I pulled it off?
I had a friend who got into depper trouble than I did, after I entered the program. Her name was in the paper while I was in the program, for Burglery. My parents reconnected with her mom and told her if my big improvements since entering the program. Her mom did not bring her daughter to the program. A couple years after I finsihed the program, my friend's mug shots were on the fron of the local section of the paper. Murdered (stabbed to death) and left on the side of the road. I've always wondered if things would have been different... maybe.
I had a friend of mine jumped and beaten to pulp while leaving a football stadium. You mean to tell me that if he'd worked some kind of program this wouldn't have happened??
As for parenst dropping their kids off, well that COULD have happened IF you were an out-of-towner. However, if you lived IN area, it was a HUGE committment as a family to be in the program, and rules had to be followed. I know my family committed, and were a "host home" for about 1 year. Kids stayed with us almost EVERY NIGHT. I had one friend who was a "permanent foster sister" (as we called them) from the other coast. We are good friends today (20 yrs later). We were at each others weddings and our kids play together. Her parents and my parents stay in touch, and our dads play golf together sometimes. That's a lot of years of good memories. Doubt our paths would have ever crossed without the program. I thankful that they did. So, those parents who were TRULEY concerned and committed, reaped success from the program.
Parents who couldn't abide were called and the child was terminated from the program. I saw it happen several times. The program wouldn't work if the family did not work on themselves as well. Some parents pulled their kids when it became too much committment for them. I saw that happen many times too.
Mmmmmkay... glad you guys are so close.
Back to the facts. I lived in Sarasota. My mother was excused from many things because she a single parent who worked two jobs in a respected profession (where do you think she got HER drugs from? :smile: )
Therefore, it was already decided that we would not be a host home. In fact, when I finally won the Oscar to 2nd phase, I was fostered out for a week.
On my return home, I was informed that I didn't have to go back... not that I would have anyway. (see, after three drinks, she'd be out cold, and I was to be on my way to the bus station)
Anyhoooooo... tell me why for AT LEAST a week - (somehow I think it was two, because at some point I figured it was safe to answer the phone, and it wasn't) someone called demanding I return to the program? Hell, one of those calls from a senior staff member - was a direct threat to come get me!
Explain THAT.
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lol. seems as though I've struck a NERVE. Talk about SNAP OUT OF IT? Life is good and there was no abuse, torture, or mis treatment at the program I was in. Again, that goes SO against your cause that I would EXPECT you to pick apart my previous post and attack/question/twist every angle. WHO are the ones OBSESSED with the program and it ways MANY years later? (I've posted here maybe 4 times, compared to HOW MANY Antigen? Helena? For how many YEARS??)
You wanted me to answer, I did. I do not feel compelled to have to further explain myself or my experience. It is what it is. You feel YOUR way, and I'll feel mine.
Just do a CHECK that what you're REALLY trying to accomplish in your plight is GOOD for the wrold and not REVENGE and rage on people from the past. It's a DEAD end road.
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Not when it's still going on to this day. I'll fight til I haven't a breath left in my body to help ensure that another kid doesn't have to go through what I did. I'l STILL recovering!!!!
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The issues that WERE addressed (mostly) were attitude, self-esteem, identifying feelings, owning up to actions, taking responsibilities and communicating productively. Drugs were a symptom of the problem. The HEART of the problem was what started kids to the path of wanting to drink or use (those issues listed above).
Same shit, different wrappper. You'd better put your kid in here b/c he/she is a DRY DRUGGIE!!! Fuck!! Any kid with an attitude problem (the majority of kids) would be considered a 'dry druggie' in need of LIFE's help or they'd end up DEADINSANEORINJAIL. Fucking AMAZING!!! Exactly when did these people develop the skill of reading minds and being able to see into the future? :lol:
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On 2005-11-16 06:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
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lol. seems as though I've struck a NERVE. Talk about SNAP OUT OF IT? Life is good and there was no abuse, torture, or mis treatment at the program I was in. Again, that goes SO against your cause that I would EXPECT you to pick apart my previous post and attack/question/twist every angle. WHO are the ones OBSESSED with the program and it ways MANY years later? (I've posted here maybe 4 times, compared to HOW MANY Antigen? Helena? For how many YEARS??)
You wanted me to answer, I did. I do not feel compelled to have to further explain myself or my experience. It is what it is. You feel YOUR way, and I'll feel mine.
Just do a CHECK that what you're REALLY trying to accomplish in your plight is GOOD for the wrold and not REVENGE and rage on people from the past. It's a DEAD end road."
Funny how you came to love the confrontation in the Rap Room . But this is real life, babydoll. People want answers.
Love ya staffer, have a seat. Let's have a song :lol:[ This Message was edited by: Helena Handbasket on 2005-11-16 08:04 ]
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On 2005-11-16 06:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
lol. seems as though I've struck a NERVE. Talk about SNAP OUT OF IT? Life is good and there was no abuse, torture, or mis treatment at the program I was in. Again, that goes SO against your cause that I would EXPECT you to pick apart my previous post and attack/question/twist every angle. WHO are the ones OBSESSED with the program and it ways MANY years later? (I've posted here maybe 4 times, compared to HOW MANY Antigen? Helena? For how many YEARS??)
You wanted me to answer, I did. I do not feel compelled to have to further explain myself or my experience. It is what it is. You feel YOUR way, and I'll feel mine.
Just do a CHECK that what you're REALLY trying to accomplish in your plight is GOOD for the wrold and not REVENGE and rage on people from the past. It's a DEAD end road."
Ah, doing it again I see... were you trained to pull these antics or did you just learn them by having it done to you in the program so much? :wave: NIIIICE Try. But Im not letting you get away with it. You have to confront YOUR issues, which is you cant accept that what you feel the truth is, is infact, not true, not because Im going to "CONFRONT" you about it, but because its about the truth.
On your OWN time you should go see a psychologist about your SEVERE cognitive dissonance and your habit of either changing the subject or attacking the person who just discredited what you had to say instead of admitting youre wrong.you Momma is a big fat's ________
--Leroy Brown
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Did you guys do TR at LIFE? (timeout room)
Let me explain what that is. Say a kid is an oldcomer when they get confronted for some thought crime or other. First, they get a setback. If they let slip any anger or frustration about it, they're deemed a misbehaver. Once that happens, sometimes staff would pull from their bag of nasty tricks "Who wants to take Lucy to TR?" Arms flail, the group is worked up into a vindictive lather, eager to help Lucy see the light!
Several people are chosen to take Lucy to one of the TR rooms, where they scream in her face, poke her in the chest, demand confession and contrition, etc. If that doesn't produce a convincing faccimili of true remourse and gratitude, it escalates, often resulting in broken bones, bruises and other semi-serious injury. This can go on for hours and days and sometimes include things like forcing the misbehaver to stand 24/7 w/o sleep, adequate food, water or bathroom breaks because they have an endless supply of fresh phasers to tag team her.
Did you ever see that happen in LIFE?
I've heard about Petermen's fetish for pulling little girls around by the hair. I wonder if she got that from Virgil or the other way around or if it was just coincidence. Anybody care to describe that scene in some detail?
Sue, you can sit this one out since you never saw any of that.
Oh, and thanks for you kind concern for my mental and emotional wellbeing. But you need not trouble yourself. I'm quite healthy and happy these days.
At present there is not a single credible established religion in the world.
--George Bernard Shaw, Irish-born English playwright
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How did LIFE manage a film crew in and out for a full year (early 80's) to do a full length documentary for 4 teens going through the program, without encountering all this abuse you speak of??
Can't wait to hear what you come up for for this one.
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Ya know - I honestly can't remember. I don't recall that scene, exactly, and I don't think there was a specific room. However, I do know that runners were grilled for hours in the "Intake Room".
If someone attempted to run, or misbehaved in some way to warrant a "takedown", they were first secured in the back of the Rap Room, and that would be a cue for the rest of the group to sing Disney's happy song. If you chose not to sing Zip-a-dee-Do-Da, you still couldn't look at the action, and if you tried to, your head was forcefully turned forward.
After the misbehaving druggie was subdued, they were marched out of the rap room, sometimes for hours, or the next day, always looking worse for wear.
I saw Petermann yank a newcomer guy by the hair once. See, when she entered the room, it was akin to an "Officer on the Bridge" - everyone sat up all nice and (koff) Straight, and waited for her to speak first.
This poor latino kid wasn't there very long and probably didn't know this - he was hunched forward in the crash position. When Helen saw that he didn't sit up at attention, she turned on her heels, marched back to the appropriate row and reached across the person sitting on the end to yank his head up.
If memory serves me correctly, she also gave a lecture to the oldcomers about their responsibility to enforce newcomer behavior.
Such vanity!
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On 2005-11-16 10:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
" How did LIFE manage a film crew in and out for a full year (early 80's) to do a full length documentary for 4 teens going through the program, without encountering all this abuse you speak of??
Can't wait to hear what you come up for for this one."
Oh, ya got us! We're busted! :rofl:
Uh, same way Straight did for Nancy Reagan, Princess Di, the 60 Minutes crew, etc? How do you think they pulled it off w/ "Brat Camp"? Do you really think Sage Walk is that tame when the cameras are not around?
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to put on a little dog and pony show. Especially if the "documentary" people are inclined to put forth a slanted portrayal. What documentary are you talking about? Who was the producer? Do you remember?
On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat
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On 2005-11-16 11:03:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:
If someone attempted to run, or misbehaved in some way to warrant a "takedown", they were first secured in the back of the Rap Room, and that would be a cue for the rest of the group to sing Disney's happy song. If you chose not to sing Zip-a-dee-Do-Da, you still couldn't look at the action, and if you tried to, your head was forcefully turned forward.
Sue, did you not wittness or participate in this sort of thing? Or do you just not recognize it as abusive?
G: "If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do?"
EB: "Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area."
-- Somewhere in No Man's Land, BA4
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On 2005-11-16 10:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
" How did LIFE manage a film crew in and out for a full year (early 80's) to do a full length documentary for 4 teens going through the program, without encountering all this abuse you speak of??
Can't wait to hear what you come up for for this one."
Hey, how about some proof it even exists? And on top of that, how about you actually find a way to show it to us.
The Christian God can be easily pictured as virtually the same as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, evil and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed, beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of the people who say they serve him. The are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat
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On 2005-11-16 10:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
" How did LIFE manage a film crew in and out for a full year (early 80's) to do a full length documentary for 4 teens going through the program, without encountering all this abuse you speak of??
Can't wait to hear what you come up for for this one."
A documentary exists? From what year? Who did it? Where is it?
Short answer: Aren't you putting your best face on when there's a camera in the room?
Long answer: Consider nursing home abuse. Nursing homes are inspected by the state. Every so often, you hear about a really horrible case that makes the news, yet if you check the history of the yearly inspections, they have "Superior" ratings. How is this?
About a month before the inspection, which lasts a maybe a week, there's a huge meeting involving everyone from the Administrator to the ladies who fold the sheets. People are required to come in even if it's their day off.
Everyone's told "It's JHACO (http://http://www.jcaho.org/) Time again people... and you know what that means!"
Yes... this means it's inspection time, and you can't get away with barely enough people to provide patient care. So, when you usually have 2 licensed staff on the floor, when the Inspectors come in, you have 3 or 4. The normally stressed-out assistant team of 4 is now increased to 6 or 7.
They start scruitinizing patient charts. If they find things out of place, the nursing staff is instructed to go back and write something, and sign their initials ... just try to be careful not to write in a day you had off.
For that week, the patients get Cadillac care. Every call bell gets answered, every request gets met, and every employee is relieved that they don't have to kill themselves to get the job done.
So when the inspectors leave, they hand out highest honors to a place where, eleven months out of the year, the patients are laying in their excrement for hours becuase the owning corporation refuses to book enough staff per day to take care of the demand, and the staff morale is so rotten, they don't even resemble the compassionate human beings that they're supposed to be anymore.
Get the picture yet?
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lol Like I said, I couldn't wait to hear what you'd come up with for that one. (enjoyable)
Yes, a long-term documentary was filmed there (I was present during part of it). Filming during raps, private one-on-one's, family condferences, an 18 yr old who wanted to pull himself from the program but decided against it, stayed and graduated, host homes, open meetings, everything.
Yes, I know the producer's name, the year it was made AND that he received an EMMY for it - I even OWN a copy. (Oh, and this man and company had NO relatives in the program, in case you were going to assume it was a parent trying to warp what happened there.)
Will I pass it along to you? I think not. Lord only knows what kind of pathetic things you'd do with it (probably edit it to somehow SUIT your needs). Why should I do anyone here any favors? No thanks.
So, get those investigative hats on and start your search. Could be FUN for you!
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On 2005-11-16 15:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
Yes, I know the producer's name, the year it was made AND that he received an EMMY for it - I even OWN a copy. (Oh, and this man and company had NO relatives in the program, in case you were going to assume it was a parent trying to warp what happened there.)
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Yeah, that's the reason.... suuuurrreeee!Men seldom, or rather never for a length of time, and deliberately, rebel against anything that does not deserve rebelling against.
--Thomas Carlyle
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On 2005-11-16 15:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"lol Like I said, I couldn't wait to hear what you'd come up with for that one. (enjoyable)
Yes, a long-term documentary was filmed there (I was present during part of it). Filming during raps, private one-on-one's, family condferences, an 18 yr old who wanted to pull himself from the program but decided against it, stayed and graduated, host homes, open meetings, everything.
Yes, I know the producer's name, the year it was made AND that he received an EMMY for it - I even OWN a copy. (Oh, and this man and company had NO relatives in the program, in case you were going to assume it was a parent trying to warp what happened there.)
Will I pass it along to you? I think not. Lord only knows what kind of pathetic things you'd do with it (probably edit it to somehow SUIT your needs). Why should I do anyone here any favors? No thanks.
So, get those investigative hats on and start your search. Could be FUN for you!"
I just love programmie excuses.
Youre a fucking liar and we called you on it. You can't keep dodging or re-directing if someone smart enough to see what youre doing is around.
Come up with the fucking info, or shut the fuck up! :wave: Dont let the door hit your ass on the way out.Forgive, O Lord, my little joke on Thee and I'll forgive Thy great big one on me.
--Robert Frost, American poet
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On 2005-11-16 16:21:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"
On 2005-11-16 15:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"lol Like I said, I couldn't wait to hear what you'd come up with for that one. (enjoyable)
Yes, a long-term documentary was filmed there (I was present during part of it). Filming during raps, private one-on-one's, family condferences, an 18 yr old who wanted to pull himself from the program but decided against it, stayed and graduated, host homes, open meetings, everything.
Yes, I know the producer's name, the year it was made AND that he received an EMMY for it - I even OWN a copy. (Oh, and this man and company had NO relatives in the program, in case you were going to assume it was a parent trying to warp what happened there.)
Will I pass it along to you? I think not. Lord only knows what kind of pathetic things you'd do with it (probably edit it to somehow SUIT your needs). Why should I do anyone here any favors? No thanks.
So, get those investigative hats on and start your search. Could be FUN for you!"
I just love programmie excuses.
Youre a fucking liar and we called you on it. You can't keep dodging or re-directing if someone smart enough to see what youre doing is around.
Come up with the fucking info, or shut the fuck up! :wave: Dont let the door hit your ass on the way out.Forgive, O Lord, my little joke on Thee and I'll forgive Thy great big one on me.
--Robert Frost, American poet
"
Your eloquent vocabulary and obvious integrity are so deeply admired. Just another intelligent representitive of this forum. Thank you.
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On 2005-11-16 16:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-11-16 16:21:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"
On 2005-11-16 15:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"lol Like I said, I couldn't wait to hear what you'd come up with for that one. (enjoyable)
Yes, a long-term documentary was filmed there (I was present during part of it). Filming during raps, private one-on-one's, family condferences, an 18 yr old who wanted to pull himself from the program but decided against it, stayed and graduated, host homes, open meetings, everything.
Yes, I know the producer's name, the year it was made AND that he received an EMMY for it - I even OWN a copy. (Oh, and this man and company had NO relatives in the program, in case you were going to assume it was a parent trying to warp what happened there.)
Will I pass it along to you? I think not. Lord only knows what kind of pathetic things you'd do with it (probably edit it to somehow SUIT your needs). Why should I do anyone here any favors? No thanks.
So, get those investigative hats on and start your search. Could be FUN for you!"
I just love programmie excuses.
Youre a fucking liar and we called you on it. You can't keep dodging or re-directing if someone smart enough to see what youre doing is around.
Come up with the fucking info, or shut the fuck up! :wave: Dont let the door hit your ass on the way out.Forgive, O Lord, my little joke on Thee and I'll forgive Thy great big one on me.
--Robert Frost, American poet
"
Your eloquent vocabulary and obvious integrity are so deeply admired. Just another intelligent representitive of this forum. Thank you."
You know, I was expecting that.
You cant face up to the ISSUE, that you're a LIAR, so instead you try to redirect; to change the focus of the dialogue to me.
Its not about me, or how foul mouthed I am - it doesnt matter. What matters is all you had to say about LIFE were debunked by Helena, and your supposed suprrise evidence that is a "documentary" is non existant. You made it up. You lied.
No amount of attacking me or ATTEMPTED redirection will change that. Admit defeat, and go fix your own issues before you try to analyze others issues over the internet.
This isn't a rap, this isnt your program, you can't do that. Youre not in control. I am. Helena is. Ginger is. The truth is. Your lies are meaningless here. You cant dodge, redirect, try to bring in something new, or make it about the person debunking you, because I wont let you, and they wont let you.
So, again, dont let the door hit your ass on the way out :wave: YOU FAILED.Creationists make it sound like a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night.
--Isaac Asimov, Russian-born American author
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On 2005-11-16 09:29:00, Antigen wrote:
"Did you guys do TR at LIFE? (timeout room)
Let me explain what that is. Say a kid is an oldcomer when they get confronted for some thought crime or other. First, they get a setback. If they let slip any anger or frustration about it, they're deemed a misbehaver. Once that happens, sometimes staff would pull from their bag of nasty tricks "Who wants to take Lucy to TR?" Arms flail, the group is worked up into a vindictive lather, eager to help Lucy see the light!
Several people are chosen to take Lucy to one of the TR rooms, where they scream in her face, poke her in the chest, demand confession and contrition, etc. If that doesn't produce a convincing faccimili of true remourse and gratitude, it escalates, often resulting in broken bones, bruises and other semi-serious injury. This can go on for hours and days and sometimes include things like forcing the misbehaver to stand 24/7 w/o sleep, adequate food, water or bathroom breaks because they have an endless supply of fresh phasers to tag team her.
Did you ever see that happen in LIFE?
I've heard about Petermen's fetish for pulling little girls around by the hair. I wonder if she got that from Virgil or the other way around or if it was just coincidence. Anybody care to describe that scene in some detail?
Sue, you can sit this one out since you never saw any of that."
Nope. I don't remember anything like that. I do know that the really bad misbehavers were taken to a back room away from the group, but it was mostly just a restraining thing going on.
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On 2005-11-16 15:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Will I pass it along to you? I think not. Lord only knows what kind of pathetic things you'd do with it (probably edit it to somehow SUIT your needs). Why should I do anyone here any favors? No thanks."
That's funny. Thanks for the laugh.
I remember a film crew there in '87. Maybe it wasn't the same one, I don't know. But I do remember that it was a special event and there was no business as usual going on at the time. They took a few of the "model phasers" and had them give a well-rehearsed speech in front of the camera. It might have just been a local news thing, I'm not sure.
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On 2005-11-16 15:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"lol Like I said, I couldn't wait to hear what you'd come up with for that one. (enjoyable)
What is it with your distaste for facts?
Yes, a long-term documentary was filmed there (I was present during part of it). Filming during raps, private one-on-one's, family condferences, an 18 yr old who wanted to pull himself from the program but decided against it, stayed and graduated, host homes, open meetings, everything.
Yes, I know the producer's name, the year it was made AND that he received an EMMY for it -I even OWN a copy. (Oh, and this man and company had NO relatives in the program, in case you were going to assume it was a parent trying to warp what happened there.)
Will I pass it along to you? I think not. Lord only knows what kind of pathetic things you'd do with it (probably edit it to somehow SUIT your needs). Why should I do anyone here any favors? No thanks.
So, get those investigative hats on and start your search. Could be FUN for you!"
Ah, nothing like the smell of good ol' program paranoia! What exactly do you think "our needs" are? What? The "evil Fornits people" will doctor the tape to show you morons leading rap in your skivvies? PUHHHHHHHLEEEEEEEEEZE!!!!!!!!!
You know, you have dodged, deflected and parried for days now, and you still haven't answered the basic question: What is your problem with our wanting to see the end of abuse??
I'll repeat: What is your problem with our wanting to see the end of abuse??
Oh, if you didn't catch that, I said, "What is your problem with our wanting to see the end of abuse??"
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...Yes, I know the producer's name, the year it was made AND that he received an EMMY for it - I even OWN a copy. (Oh, and this man and company had NO relatives in the program, in case you were going to assume it was a parent trying to warp what happened there.)
It won an Emmy, did it? Under what category - Daytime Drama, Animation or Game Shows?
Borrowing from law, the burden of proof falls on the guy who makes the claim. You claim there's a video, it's up to you to prove it.
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On 2005-11-16 20:04:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:
"
...Yes, I know the producer's name, the year it was made AND that he received an EMMY for it - I even OWN a copy. (Oh, and this man and company had NO relatives in the program, in case you were going to assume it was a parent trying to warp what happened there.)
It won an Emmy, did it? Under what category - Daytime Drama, Animation or Game Shows?
"
No, Science Fiction. I think it was called George Orwell's Ministry of Love
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I remember the documentary. It was titled YOU CAN MAKE IT.
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Helena asks: What is your problem with us wanting to end the abuse?
I answered earlier, but here it is AGAIN:
From previous post - "The reason I posted that I never endured nor witnessed abuse at LIFE is simply to state the truth. WHY would I NOT jump in with you all if I did?!? Many of you state that "these programs" are harmful and abusive to all , when that was NOT my experience at ALL (nor was it for hundreds of others I witnessed through my time there). "
Just out of curiosity sake - WHAT do you summize to be the REASON these programs and staff are ABUSING all the kids? WHAT do these people GAIN in doing so? WHY do YOU believe it's happening??
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They're power hungry maniacs who like to exert their power over helpless teens who have no recourse to prevent or even report any abuses. The get off on controlling others. The can't do it in the real world with adults so what better play things than kids who are extremely susceptable (sp) to this kind of coercion.
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On 2005-11-17 10:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
" Helena asks: What is your problem with us wanting to end the abuse?
I answered earlier, but here it is AGAIN:
From previous post - "The reason I posted that I never endured nor witnessed abuse at LIFE is simply to state the truth. WHY would I NOT jump in with you all if I did?!? Many of you state that "these programs" are harmful and abusive to all , when that was NOT my experience at ALL (nor was it for hundreds of others I witnessed through my time there). "
Just out of curiosity sake - WHAT do you summize to be the REASON these programs and staff are ABUSING all the kids? WHAT do these people GAIN in doing so? WHY do YOU believe it's happening??
"
Here's a question for you. Did you witness people being locked up against their will, without any due process of law whatsoever?
As to why... it's because they think drugs are so evil that it's ok to destroy the lives of people suspected of using them in order to fight them.
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On 2005-11-17 10:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
" Helena asks: What is your problem with us wanting to end the abuse?
I answered earlier, but here it is AGAIN:
From previous post - "The reason I posted that I never endured nor witnessed abuse at LIFE is simply to state the truth. WHY would I NOT jump in with you all if I did?!? Many of you state that "these programs" are harmful and abusive to all , when that was NOT my experience at ALL (nor was it for hundreds of others I witnessed through my time there). "
Just out of curiosity sake - WHAT do you summize to be the REASON these programs and staff are ABUSING all the kids? WHAT do these people GAIN in doing so? WHY do YOU believe it's happening??
"
Ferrous Cranus
(http://http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/Assets/ferrouscranus.jpg)
Ferrous Cranus is utterly impervious to reason, persuasion and new ideas, and when engaged in battle he will not yield an inch in his position regardless of its hopelessness. Though his thrusts are decisively repulsed, his arguments crushed in every detail and his defenses demolished beyond repair he will remount the same attack again and again with only the slightest variation in tactics. Sometimes out of pure frustration Philosopher will try to explain to him the failed logistics of his situation, or Therapist will attempt to penetrate the psychological origins of his obduracy, but, ever unfathomable, Ferrous Cranus cannot be moved.
[Taken from http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warr ... cranus.htm (http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/ferouscranus.htm) ]
The amount of people who are testifying to the abuse is vast, STRAIGHT has already been closed by the courts, LIFE was little more than a copy of STRAIGHT, and KHK a copy of LIFE. Furthermore, Every story of abuse matches up with the others. Now, thousands of stories over a decade or more, all matching up? If they were lying, then they wouldnt match up so well.
That abuse happened back in STRAIGHT is for all purposes proven. That it happened in LIFE is suspect merely because of its association with STRAIGHT, but if you were to examine it critically it seems to be just like any other 'emotional growth' (LGAT based) program.
But, thats probably all over your head, so I'll dumb it down for you:
Abuse happened, they want to get the story out, and then they want to prevent any abuse from happening again - by shutting down programs that are abusive and putting laws and procedures in place to prevent this from happening (so kids in treatment can call the cops, or an attourney, etc) and to spread public awareness.
You come in and basically imply that it never happened and they're all lying. Uh, it did. Youve yet to find any way to disprove that it happened, so now youre trying to say the burden of proof is on them to show that it did, and you issue a false question such as "why would they do it if they had nothing to gain by doing so".
The question itself is bullshit. The model of 'treatment' employed in LIFE is nothing more than LGATs employed within a thought reform regime. Its not about them choosing to abuse "for no reason", its that the program itself is abusive.
Youre also throwing in so many red herrings that youd do a good job to start a fishing business. Also, learn how to use QUOTE tags properly, please. Also, please indicate what youre quoting from before (tags or not) because what you post is very confusing to some people.
You're also a big fat ferrous cranus :sad: Our country right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right.
--Carl Schurz, German-born U.S. general and U.S. senator
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On 2005-11-14 06:10:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:
:question: :question: :question:
In other words, you don't deny that these things happened, and yet you never wittnessed or experienced abuse?
Ok, darlin, let's talk turkey. Were you on staff? Are you now employed or deeply involved somehow in a stepcraft rehab situation? Cause I honestly can't think of any other way you could maintain this level of self delusion over all these years.
BTW, I bet I know how you "knew" about Shane's criminal record. Haven't you figured it out yet? There's a pattern. Every time someone escaped, there would be these horrible rumors about them. I've even heard from people who we all thought were dead. That was the cover for "nobody ever escapes, they always get caught so don't even think about it." I found out a few years ago that my own mother went around telling everyone we knew from the Program that I was a heroin addict and a hooker. :roll:
Understand that legal and illegal are political, and often arbitrary,
categorizations; use and abuse are medical, or clinical, distinctions.
--Abbie Hoffman
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On 2005-11-17 10:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
" Helena asks: What is your problem with us wanting to end the abuse?
I answered earlier, but here it is AGAIN:
From previous post - "The reason I posted that I never endured nor witnessed abuse at LIFE is simply to state the truth. WHY would I NOT jump in with you all if I did?!? Many of you state that "these programs" are harmful and abusive to all , when that was NOT my experience at ALL (nor was it for hundreds of others I witnessed through my time there). "
Just out of curiosity sake - WHAT do you summize to be the REASON these programs and staff are ABUSING all the kids? WHAT do these people GAIN in doing so? WHY do YOU believe it's happening??
Well here ya have it straight from one horse's mouth! (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=12646&forum=25&start=0#148003)
-
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of it's victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busy-bodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those that torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
C.S. Lewis, God In The DockPray: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy.
--Ambrose Bierce
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Susan..... where are you? No answer? Did you see what Shane and Helena saw or didn't you? Enquiring minds want to know.
If life were fair, Dan Quayle would be making a living asking 'Do you want fries with that?'
John Cleese
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On 2005-11-18 14:39:00, Antigen wrote:
"Susan..... where are you? No answer? Did you see what Shane and Helena saw or didn't you? Enquiring minds want to know
:grin:
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Yeah, no shit! I'd bet dollars to doughnuts "Susan" works in the rehab field in some way and attends regular stepcraft meetings of some sort; probably Alanon, since she seems so comfortable castigating others.
In all life one should comfort the afflicted, but verily, also, one should afflict the comfortable, and especially when they are comfortably, contentedly, even happily wrong
--John Kenneth Galbraith
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On 2005-11-14 06:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-11-13 21:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Helen Petermann has evil powers, but I considered the LIFE program quite silly.I was there in 1982. Nothing like STRAIGHT INC. "
lol
LIFE wasn't fun, but it wasn't abusive to any extreme. You didn't HAVE to motivate. So if you broke blood vessels doing it, own up to it pal."
That's funny. When I went to visit the LIFE program around 83 or 84 I distinctly remember two people being 'motivated'. The didn't want to and the kids on either side of him grabbed their arms and made them motivate.....hard!!! Shit, I thought one of their shoulders might dislocate. Seriously, it was that bad. I saw this pesonally, with my own two little eyes. And this was just one day[/b] that I dropped in. I was visiting a friend in Sarasota and she wanted to stop and see a few people. No calls ahead of time to warn them and say that we were coming by. Wonder what happened on a daily basis or did I just come one the ONE bad day???? Oh, and my friend must have just come in on the bad days too....
That friend visited LIFE between 82 and 83 (she was a Straight grad and wholeheartedly believed in the premise of the program and AA and all that (needless to say we're no longer friends, but I digress... ) but was abhored at the things that she saw going on IN LIFE and she reported similar things to what I saw and much, much worse. The degradation and humiliation, the isolation, the restraints (yes, they still used the 5 point restraints...for a while at least.They never got to the heart of me because they assumed from the beginning they knew me.
To each her own, Anonymous
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Still no answers from the Staff Camp?
::bump::
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I'm feeling honored that you anxiously await my replies, however, I choose not to waste so much time on this site (my career requires traveling, and I'm also spending time with relatives out of state this week.)
Obviously nothing that I say will be intellectually absorbed, so be it. I do not have the need to repeat myself endlessly (month after month, maybe year after year as it seems for some), when I've stated what I experienced, witnessed and thought. Once is enough for me.
So, carry on with whatever it is you believe you're accomplishing. HAPPY THANKSGIVING to all.
Sue
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Translation:
On 2005-11-20 07:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
" I'm feeling honored that you anxiously await my replies, however, I choose not to waste so much time on this site
You're not important and what you say is not important.
(my career requires traveling, and I'm also spending time with relatives out of state this week.)
And, sadly, I lack the authority to start you over or send you to TR. So I'm going back to work to fuck w/ some more vulnerable people and then off to Thanksgiving dinner, where my family and I can have a huge circle jerk over a turkey dinner, reminisce about the good old days when we could beat the spit out of "people", and I use that term very loosely, like you and congratulate each other on what good and dedicated 5th phasers we all are.
Obviously nothing that I say will be intellectually absorbed, so be it.
You "people" are just not buying into my bullshit.
I do not have the need to repeat myself endlessly (month after month, maybe year after year as it seems for some), when I've stated what I experienced, witnessed and thought.
No matter how many times I try to shove it down your throats, you just aren't working your Program like I am. Therefore, I'm Not Allowed To Talk To You!
Once is enough for me.
So I'll just close my eyes and only talk to people who agree with me.
So, carry on with whatever it is you believe you're accomplishing. HAPPY THANKSGIVING to all.
Sue"
There now, I've convinced myself that I'm right and your wrong, so I don't have to think about it anymore. Fuck You soundly, you pathetic druggiekids!
Signed.... who? Jeeze, you'd think that someone with such strong faith in their convictions would use their real name.Life is like a shit sandwich; the more bread you got, the less shit you gotta eat.
--Anonymous
_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
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I didn't break any blood vessels I just had a bad drug habit and sought help. I was treated with respect. It was like kindergarden. Some pretty silly schitt that's why I had to leave. I mean Petermann went easy on me.
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On 2005-11-20 07:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
" I'm feeling honored that you anxiously await my replies, however, I choose not to waste so much time on this site (my career requires traveling, and I'm also spending time with relatives out of state this week.)
You mean you choose not to answer because you don't have one?
Obviously nothing that I say will be intellectually absorbed, so be it. I do not have the need to repeat myself endlessly (month after month, maybe year after year as it seems for some), when I've stated what I experienced, witnessed and thought. Once is enough for me.
Riiiiiight, Sue... You keep trying to convince youself of that, mmmkay?
So, carry on with whatever it is you believe you're accomplishing. HAPPY THANKSGIVING to all.
And maybe Santa will have a great big "clue-by-four" with your name on it on Christmas morning. Well, one can only hope.
:roll: [ This Message was edited by: Helena Handbasket on 2005-11-20 18:42 ]
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Helena, Shane, who are ya' gonna believe; Sue or your own lyin eyes?
One does not have to appeal to God to set the initial conditions for the creation of the universe, but if one does He would have to act through the laws of physics.
--Stephen Hawking, English scientist
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On 2005-11-22 09:44:00, Antigen wrote:
"Helena, Shane, who are ya' gonna believe; Sue or your own lyin eyes?"
I'm not sure. My mind is so clouded by my thirst for revenge and money that I just can't think for myself.
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On 2005-11-22 09:44:00, Antigen wrote:
"Helena, Shane, who are ya' gonna believe; Sue or your own lyin eyes?
On 2005-11-22 11:22:00, TimeBomb wrote:
I'm not sure. My mind is so clouded by my thirst for revenge and money that I just can't think for myself."
Having not made it to 5th phase, I'm still a dry druggie, and prone to druggie behavior, such as talking out in group. However, I've been taught the chain of command, and realize that the upper phasers are more aware than I.
I should reflect on this question in my MI.
:grin:
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That's better. Luv ya Helena, luv ya Timebomb. Now have a seat. Who's got a song?
Thought that is silenced is always rebellious. Majorities, of course, are often mistaken. This is why the silencing of minorities is necessarily dangerous. Criticism and dissent are the indispensable antidote to major delusions.
-- ALAN BARTH, The Loyalty of Free Men, 1951.
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On 2005-11-22 17:10:00, Antigen wrote:
"That's better. Luv ya Helena, luv ya Timebomb. Now have a seat. Who's got a song?
"We Shall Overcome!"
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On 2005-11-23 06:33:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:
"
On 2005-11-22 17:10:00, Antigen wrote:
"That's better. Luv ya Helena, luv ya Timebomb. Now have a seat. Who's got a song?
"We Shall Overcome!""
You Can Make It
Pass It On
(funny how it comes back to you so many years later)
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You Can Make It
Pass It On
(funny how it comes back to you so many years later)"
Pass it on? Is there a line in there about Bogarting? :rofl:
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On some other date and time, Anonymous wrote:
On 2005-11-23 09:40:00, Anonymous
"
On 2005-11-22 17:10:00, Antigen wrote:
"That's better. Luv ya Helena, luv ya Timebomb. Now have a seat. Who's got a song?
"We Shall Overcome!""
You Can Make It
Pass It On
(funny how it comes back to you so many years later)"
Isn't it sickening that no matter how much time has past those things stay with you? It has been well over 15 years and I can still remember everything about the place. I can't remember what I ate for lunch yesterday but I can clearly remember the stink of the kitchen, the smell in Nurse Waymeire's office and the well water in the Rez.
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Isn't it sickening that no matter how much time has past those things stay with you? It has been well over 15 years and I can still remember everything about the place. I can't remember what I ate for lunch yesterday but I can clearly remember the stink of the kitchen, the smell in Nurse Waymeire's office and the well water in the Rez.
Believe it or not, the stench is still there!
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What 4th or 5th Phaser hasn't been Phoner or Runner in a while?
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On 2005-11-27 06:52:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:
"
You Can Make It
Pass It On
(funny how it comes back to you so many years later)"
Pass it on? Is there a line in there about Bogarting? :rofl:
"
Hmmmm, we sang "pass it on" in KHK, for open mtg if I remember correctly.
regards,
-DPWaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
--Bruce Lee
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Yes, we sang "I'm On My Way", "Tangled Up Puppet", "Pass It On", and "You Can Make It" at Open Meetings.
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It depends when you were in LIFE.
LIFE opened its doors with a small group of people who left STRAIGHT.
LIFE was supposed to be a kinder gentler verson of STRAIGHT,and daily we were reminded of this.
PETERMANN and ROSS and DR NAY were recruiting ex-STRAIGHTS to come to the LIFE Program.
Also,we were subjected to the horrors comitted on us by our oldcommer families,also ex-STRAIGHTS.
While on 1st phase,where I stayed for my ENTIRE program,I had my head bashed against a car door by MIKE ZUPPARDOs father (his sisters husband,his legal parents)because I wanted to speak to my mother after open meeting.I was shoved in to EARL COLLINS (Paving Company)car and sent home with him
and his abusive family.
LIFE was not any easier than STRAIGHT.
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On 2005-12-08 23:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It depends when you were in LIFE.
LIFE opened its doors with a small group of people who left STRAIGHT.
LIFE was supposed to be a kinder gentler verson of STRAIGHT,and daily we were reminded of this.
PETERMANN and ROSS and DR NAY were recruiting ex-STRAIGHTS to come to the LIFE Program.
Also,we were subjected to the horrors comitted on us by our oldcommer families,also ex-STRAIGHTS.
While on 1st phase,where I stayed for my ENTIRE program,I had my head bashed against a car door by MIKE ZUPPARDOs father (his sisters husband,his legal parents)because I wanted to speak to my mother after open meeting.I was shoved in to EARL COLLINS (Paving Company)car and sent home with him
and his abusive family.
LIFE was not any easier than STRAIGHT."
And were you IN Straight? I believe LIFE was better than Straight, but then again, I never witnessed or experienced any abuse there.
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On 2005-12-09 19:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-12-08 23:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It depends when you were in LIFE.
LIFE opened its doors with a small group of people who left STRAIGHT.
LIFE was supposed to be a kinder gentler verson of STRAIGHT,and daily we were reminded of this.
PETERMANN and ROSS and DR NAY were recruiting ex-STRAIGHTS to come to the LIFE Program.
Also,we were subjected to the horrors comitted on us by our oldcommer families,also ex-STRAIGHTS.
While on 1st phase,where I stayed for my ENTIRE program,I had my head bashed against a car door by MIKE ZUPPARDOs father (his sisters husband,his legal parents)because I wanted to speak to my mother after open meeting.I was shoved in to EARL COLLINS (Paving Company)car and sent home with him
and his abusive family.
LIFE was not any easier than STRAIGHT."
And were you IN Straight? I believe LIFE was better than Straight, but then again, I never witnessed or experienced any abuse there."
I was in LIFE,and some of my friends were in Straight.
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On 2005-11-13 19:20:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:
"This is a LIFE - specific response to Sue, who wrote:
There MAY have been a couple isolated boarder-line "abuse" situations at one or 2 of these programs, but it's a CROCK if you believe this (what these callers said) went on for YEARS and YEARS, daily at these programs.
I was in LIFE and NEVER witnessed what was said here. Most of these callers were TROUBLED teens, with horrible attitudes, arrest records, drop outs from school and their parents emrolled them in HEAVEY, long term treatment. It's not SUMMER CAMP. They were made to think about their attitudes, actions, and wreckless ways. Who wants to do that?!? There were lots of rules, and guidelines to follow. It WAS strict. But these abuse reports are almost laughable. They never completed their treatment/counseling, and now need to BLAME someone/something on their current failures. It's an EASY target.
I graduated the LIFE program, learned how to DEAL with reality instead of get into drugs and trouble, and improved my self-esteem tremendously. I made life-ling friends there, whom I remain friends with today (20 yrs later). I have NO regrets about being there, as it helped me and SO MANY others. I appreciate that my folks didn't sit by and watch me get worse. They cared enough to TO DO something, before it was too late.
I believe many of these "survivors" (I have trouble not laughing at this term) would love to somehow get $ out of all this. It's really sad that this is their plight SO MANY years later.
My response, as posted on http://radioinsidescoop.com/mt-posts-ar ... 00506.html (http://radioinsidescoop.com/mt-posts-archive/000506.html)
Ginger mentioned that LIFE wasn't as violent as Straight, and I tend to agree. Many of the abuses that I've heard committed at Straight, I did not witness at LIFE. However, I did personally witness physical abuse, denial of bathroom priveleges, and denial of privacy. I personally was forced to sleep with my legs intertwined with my oldcomer - something that comes very close to sexual impropriety.
However, I will ask Sue - and anyone else who cares to answer - how you consider this okay? How do you consider slapping kids, sitting on them, pulling their hair, forcibly "motiviating" (arm flapping) them, and accusing them (of drug use) without proof - helpful?
Sue, if you gave your kids this "treatment", you'd be up on abuse charges in no time flat, and you know it.
I don't know what your agenda is. Most of ours is to simply stop abuse. What is your problem with that?[ This Message was edited by: Helena Handbasket on 2005-11-13 19:29 ]"
When I was in L.I.F.E.,in its Grand Opening days,I remember discussion in group by Ex-StPete and Ex-Sarasota Straights about a time when an execuitive staff PUNCHED a kid in the face sending them over rows of chairs.Then Miss Pete would preech about how lucky we were to be in the L.I.F.E. Program rather than Straight,then she would threaten to send us to "the 4 year program in Okeechobe,where our heads would be shaved and we would have to get up at 4:AM every morning and eat grule" if we continued to misbehave.
I dont remember anyone getting punched in the face by an adult at L.I.F.E.(except the time Mike Zuppardo's father bashed my head against the doorframe of his car and throwing me in the parking lot after open meeting because I was crying about missing my family and wanting to go home),but I was physically abused by more than one of my oldcommer fathers.NOBODY had any control or oversight of what was going on in those oldcommer houses.
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On 2006-02-13 04:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
Then Miss Pete would preech about how lucky we were to be in the L.I.F.E. Program rather than Straight,then she would threaten to send us to "the 4 year program in Okeechobe,where our heads would be shaved and we would have to get up at 4:AM every morning and eat grule" if we continued to misbehave.
Oh, well then! Never mind! As long as she was outsourcing the really brutal stuff to, whom, Jack Eckard? Then everything's just fine then, right kiddies?
The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor
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On 2006-02-13 13:32:00, Eudora wrote:
"
On 2006-02-13 04:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
Then Miss Pete would preech about how lucky we were to be in the L.I.F.E. Program rather than Straight,then she would threaten to send us to "the 4 year program in Okeechobe,where our heads would be shaved and we would have to get up at 4:AM every morning and eat grule" if we continued to misbehave.
Oh, well then! Never mind! As long as she was outsourcing the really brutal stuff to, whom, Jack Eckard? Then everything's just fine then, right kiddies?"
And Herman Fountain too. When I was there in '87, the big threat to misbehavors was that we would get sent to Mississippi (Bethel), where I had already been once, before I was in LIFE. There, we had our heads damn near shaven, got up at 5 every day, ate grule, and spent all day doing slave labor. We were also beaten with a stick for such trivial things as using the word "crap" instead of "dung", or for not being able to memorize a Bible verse in 5 minutes.
But I guess that pales in comparison to only being psychogically tortured on a daily basis, and occaisionally being physically tortured. And I guess there's nothing wrong with false imprisonment and kidnapping.
After I finally escaped from LIFE, and they had enough of me (I'm sure my Dad failing to pay his half of the bill had nothing to do with it), Petermann and Company helped organize a kidnapping to take me back to Bethel. Nothing abusive about being thrown in a van and sat on.
Why do I even bother to repeat myself? Am I angry? Yeah. Is that my motivation for posting this shit over and over? Hell no. IT IS STILL GOING ON TODAY. And people like Wendy West, Peggy Kelly, etc. saw/directed this kind of thing. When asked to address the specifics, they just reply with some BS and simply say, "I never saw any abuse".
Fine, if you want to reconnect with old friends (wrong thread, I know). But quit acting like it was a fucking summer camp. I have no problem with people like Mike, who say it was beneficial to them, and will at least admit that there were serious fundemental flaws in the design of the Program. But for people like Wendy to tout themselves as a "Professional", and imply that that somehow shows that she knows how to recognize abuse, therefore, if she says there was no abuse, then there was none... WTF? People like that are at least partly responsible for the success of the other Straights that are still in business, and the whole freaking Teen Gulag industry.
Anyway... I have some code to write, and some corporate paperwork to do. Since my whole shitty life revolves around focussing my hate and bitterness on blaming the Program for the fact that I'm such a loser. Why can't they come up with some new material to avoid the issue with?
[ This Message was edited by: TimeBomb on 2006-02-13 14:31 ]
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Anyway... I have some code to write, and some corporate paperwork to do. Since my whole shitty life revolves around focussing my hate and bitterness on blaming the Program for the fact that I'm such a loser. Why can't they come up with some new material to avoid the issue with?
Oh my GOD!!!! :rofl:
Nobody writes curriculum for self-determined spiritual individuals and expects to sell it in the public school market.
John Taylor Gatto
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On 2006-02-13 17:30:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:
"Oh my GOD!!!! :eek: You have a ... LIFE? (Ok, ok, bad pun)
And apparently, according to Heidi, it stands for LIFE Isn't For Everyone.
Hey, another recursive acronym!
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Which family was abusive the Zupardos' or the Collins'?
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On 2006-05-08 16:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Which family was abusive the Zupardos' or the Collins'?"
Zuppardo's dad (really his brother in law) was a real asshole and physically assaulted a kid in his car in the LIFE parking lot,bashing his head against the door frame,slamming him on the asphault,then sped away.
I saw it myself.
Collins picked the kid up and took him to his Gator Creek home.