Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Straight, Inc. and Derivatives => Topic started by: Withdraw on November 11, 2005, 01:32:00 AM
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If therapy will help us. I want something more than PTSD treated. We all seem to have the same kind of "symptoms" and it goes alot farther than PTSD. It is much more complex than what I've read on PTSD. I'm not sure what it is we experience, but it's deep. When I have tried to go to therapy and the first visit the counselor asks you to start telling them what happened through my life and what I experience now. I think to myself "How much time do I have to talk?" And when I start to tell them, They seem overwhelmed and unsure where to start helping. Then after a few meetings, We have still not gotten all the information out. A few meetings later....I get frustrated because "the right" stuff isn't being adressed. They always try to fit me inside one of their labeled boxxes. Or spout off so many diagnosises, I just feel like giving up. Straight Inc. grew a horrible emotional/social disease inside of me that has no name, no treatment. Well, thats how I have felt about it. I want closure. I'm not sure how to find it, but that's what I want, Closure. It wasn't even until comming here I could put "how it happened" all together. One thing Straight took from me is, my idenity. I haven't been sure of myself or lived w/o great fear since I got out of Straight. Somehow all the feelings I experienced in Straight had become once removed, like it was a dream. Then after comming here I remembered the one thing I noticed right away upon leaving Straight, A thing I had never experienced before, Fear, Fear of almost everyone and everything. I remember now upon leaving Straight being afraid of the whole world, because I knew something about our world other people didn't know. I knew there were places people were taken to and not heard from again for long periods of time and when they did get out, they were not the same people as when they went in. That reality scared me the most. I remember thinking there was always someone behind me ready to restrain me and take me back or silence my knowledge in some way.
What we all experienced is just horrific. I feel like I was in a mass genecide of the free thinking teenager. Straight took so many things from my life. Things I can never retrieve or get back. The only thing I can hope for is Valadation.
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Brainwashing, false beliefs, mental habits like head games and doubting and rechecking your intentions & instincts. I don't think regular counselors can deal with that. I think regular counselors could be a good way to once again get somebody's agenda shoved up your ass. I submit. Diagnose me. Listen to my confessions. Ad nausea. Do you feel freer or closer to the truth after these counseling sessions? If not, they ain't good medicine for you.
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[ This Message was edited by: Withdraw on 2006-02-28 22:15 ]
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On 2005-11-10 23:05:00, Withdraw wrote:
It's really like Straight stole my spirit. How does one get ~that back? "
Drugs. Lots and lots of drugs.
kidding. well, sort of. :razz:
That's one of the $64K questions. I don't think there's any one (or two for that matter) answer to that. We've all had differing experiences since being out that there is no 'one way'. I've been on and off of this place for a few years now and a lot of the time I feel like I'm still fumbling my way through. I've tried the counseling, but ended up with pretty much the same results as you WD. I wish I (or anyone) had the answer to this. We all have to find our way through this somehow. This place helps a lot. I've made a couple of really great friends here. Just putting some of this together helps a lot. I had no idea how far reaching all this was until I started poking around after finding this place and others. The more I read about everyone else's experiences, the better (or at least more sane) I feel. Still though, I've got my good days and bad days. Unfortunately when the bad days hit, they're pretty fucking bad.
Reading up on Thought Reform helped me out too. http://www.ex-cult.org/ (http://www.ex-cult.org/) This site helped me figure out a lot. Helped me realize what happened to me and how it happened. That's something I had a hard time with. HOW the fuck could this have happened. What exactly did they do to me...the mechanics of it.
I have to take a break from all this every once in a while too. It gets a bit overwhelming at times. When it gets really bad I back off for a while, spend some time at the beach or on the water and try to put some perspective on it. I know it sounds trite, but it helps knowing that I'm NOT crazy and I'm NOT alone.He that will not reason is a bigot; he who cannot is a fool; and he who dares not, is a slave.
--William Drummond (1585-1640)
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On 2005-11-10 22:32:00, Withdraw wrote:
"If therapy will help us. I want something more than PTSD treated. We all seem to have the same kind of "symptoms" and it goes alot farther than PTSD. It is much more complex than what I've read on PTSD. I'm not sure what it is we experience, but it's deep. When I have tried to go to therapy and the first visit the counselor asks you to start telling them what happened through my life and what I experience now. I think to myself "How much time do I have to talk?" And when I start to tell them, They seem overwhelmed and unsure where to start helping. Then after a few meetings, We have still not gotten all the information out. A few meetings later....I get frustrated because "the right" stuff isn't being adressed. They always try to fit me inside one of their labeled boxxes. Or spout off so many diagnosises, I just feel like giving up. Straight Inc. grew a horrible emotional/social disease inside of me that has no name, no treatment. Well, thats how I have felt about it...
Yeah, me too.
Fear of almost everyone and everything. I remember now upon leaving Straight being afraid of the whole world, because I knew something about our world other people didn't know. I knew there were places people were taken to and not heard from again for long periods of time and when they did get out, they were not the same people as when they went in. That reality scared me the most. I remember thinking there was always someone behind me ready to restrain me and take me back or silence my knowledge in some way.
What we all experienced is just horrific. I feel like I was in a mass genecide of the free thinking teenager. . "
You are so right on. That is it. High Anxiety, babe. We are stressed beyond what is sustainable so we are constantly exhausted. Nervous breakdowns. The sense that it's been dark so long now, that people don' even recognize the light. ...Ringwraiths...
'Ey ...:wink: [ This Message was edited by: starry-eyed pirate on 2005-11-11 00:45 ]
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As far as a label or diagnosis/treatment....my guess is you can try any one of them and they can be helpful. BUT, not to sound cliche....you can only get as far as you go yourself. No one can treat or fix whats inside you, ultimately, except you. You might spend years trying different therapies, but until you can become strong enough to face your demons on a very personal level and commit to excorsising them yourself.....well, I feel until you do that you will always have an "out", a reason not to heal, or a place to lay blame or a label to lean on as a crutch. No one is every gonna know as well as we know whats wrong inside. Who better to take the reigns?
I am NOT accusing you of being weak or of being flawed, I am only relating what I have experienced personally and what I perceive in others in the same situation.
_________________
"...hands went up and people hit the floor, he wasted two kids that ran for the door....."
-Beastie Boys, Paul Revere[ This Message was edited by: Carmel on 2005-11-11 06:26 ]
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I understand what your saying, And it's why I have never trusted anyone else to heal me (ie: traditional counselor).... What I am asking is: Is anyone doing something diffrent?
I hear alot of people here sitting around saying.... exactly what Betty Sembler said, Get a life.. move on.. -Well ~That isn't working for me.
The words Psycological murder keep comming to mind. I do think that was an accurate description. My entire Psyche was kidnapped, twisted, tortured, murdered and hidden away in a shallow mass grave along with all the rest of the Psyches Straight stole from us. We were psychologically murdered, How does one recover from that?
Many native peoples have ceremonies/rituals which people in-act a retrieving of ones soul. I have considered doing something like that. I know some of you have thought of things like that also. Has anyone actually done it? I have done many native ceremonies, sweat lodges... etc, But never with the intent of recovering from Straight's trauma.
I am not asking anyone to "fix" me, because I do not think that is possible. I know I am the only one who can affect a change, but the thinking doesn't ever stop...The thoughts aren't fluently simple nor possitive.
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On 2005-11-11 06:50:00, Withdraw wrote:
I hear alot of people here sitting around saying.... exactly what Betty Sembler said, Get a life.. move on.. -Well ~That isn't working for me.
Wow. That's a little harsh. I know I sure wouldn't want any of my words confused with anything that bitch said.
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On 2005-11-11 07:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-11-11 06:50:00, Withdraw wrote:
I hear alot of people here sitting around saying.... exactly what Betty Sembler said, Get a life.. move on.. -Well ~That isn't working for me.
Wow. That's a little harsh. I know I sure wouldn't want any of my words confused with anything that bitch said."
True, Anon. But its important to understand that the comment itself holds merit, even if the speaker does not.
Where else do we have to go but forward? Thats just reality. Life is for the living. Everyone has a choice. Everyone also has the choice on when they are going to MAKE the choice. Get it?
Just because it isnt working for Withdraw now, doesnt mean it will not work for them in the future. Moving on isnt a bad thing; if it was then why the worry about whats wrong in the first place? Once you understand whats wrong with you, what are you going to do about it? That day WILL come.
Healing=Moving on, whether Betty esposued it or not. And thats not a bad thing.
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That was me.
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Did you have a suggestion or idea? Or did you just once again want to twist my words? It's not like I go around quoteing others here and twisting their words. Picking out small fragments of someones post to use against them, I haven't done that. Matter of fact, I don't think I have ever disagreed with anyone here. I normally say, Yes I can see it that way, but I experience it diffrently..So, I just don't see why you few Anons pick me out that way.
Some people here and some people who have never been here, have taken the attitude of "move on" "theres nothing we can do, so don't dwell in it".. I understand if that has worked for some people. I am telling you... That isn't working for me, And I am asking for other ideas. I'm sorry Anon if that sounds Harsh, why are you still afraid of the truth? (I'm not asking for an answer to that, but it's something to think on.) It's harsh to just come out and say it? I don't think so, I didn't judge anyone for living from the "don't dwell in it" attitude. It is a great coping mechinism, But one which isn't working for me!
Bitch?? How about someone who is desperately searching for some understanding of how it is I came to be this person I am, and where do I go from here? For this, you fault me? Ironic, isn't it.
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That post isn't to you Carmel. You probably knew that.
[ This Message was edited by: Withdraw on 2006-02-28 22:19 ]
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On 2005-11-10 22:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
Do you feel freer or closer to the truth after these counseling sessions? If not, they ain't good medicine for you.
"
Excellent point!
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On 2005-11-11 07:50:00, Anonymous
True, Anon. But its important to understand that the comment itself holds merit, even if the speaker does not.
Where else do we have to go but forward? Thats just reality. Life is for the living. Everyone has a choice. Everyone also has the choice on when they are going to MAKE the choice. Get it?
Just because it isnt working for Withdraw now, doesnt mean it will not work for them in the future. Moving on isnt a bad thing; if it was then why the worry about whats wrong in the first place? Once you understand whats wrong with you, what are you going to do about it? That day WILL come.
Healing=Moving on, whether Betty esposued it or not. And thats not a bad thing. "
Granted its not a bad thing, but to put it in the context that it was, was IMO a little harsh. I dont' want to have anything I've said to be connected in any way with those people.
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I think what you said needs to be taken in context.
When Betty Sembler says "They need to move on", she really means "I wish they would quit reminding me of the abuse my cult dished out to them, I really wish they'd shut up about it so I can continue with my fraud and fucked-up power trip".
I believe that Anon meant "It is possible to heal from the damage inflicted by Straight and not be constantly preoccupied with it."
I think that the preoccupation with Straight is part of the "process" (please excuse the borderline thera-speak) of understanding what happened there, what it did to us, and beginning to cope with this painful knowledge, and get some kind of bearing as to where we are today, because of/in spite of what we went through at Straight.
Don't confuse "Move on" with "forget about it".
rtp2k3
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W/e. Sounded a little snippy. I don't think anyone on this thread or any other has told you to "get a life". THOSE are Betty's words. People have told you what they've done to try and move on. RTP and others make a good point when they talk about understanding the process. Sorry none of its working for you. Hoep you're able to find some peace. I think everyone who has posted on this thread wishes you that.
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Withdraw, nobody called you a "bitch", they were talking about Betty Sembler.
I agree with you about the whole "move on" thing. It doesn't work. Those are loaded words anyways.
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On 2005-11-11 08:04:00, Withdraw wrote:
I'm sorry Anon if that sounds Harsh, why are you still afraid of the truth? (I'm not asking for an answer to that, but it's something to think on.) It's harsh to just come out and say it?
The harshness was to compare what people have posted here trying to help in some way to what Betty Sembler said. What truth would that be that you think anyone is afraid of? Looks to me like a bunch of people responded to you, trying to express what they've done, trying to help in some way. You coming back and likening it to Betty telling us to 'get a life' was, IMO, harsh. Hope you find the answers you obviously feel you didn't get here. Peace.
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On 2005-11-11 08:08:00, Withdraw wrote:
"That post isn't to you Carmel. You probably knew that.
Ok, so moving on = healing? I don't get that. Doesn't that invalidate us somehow? Doesn't that perpetuate "the coverup" more? How can we achieve validation and stay "healed". That is one of the parts I am missing here. That function of my brain is faulty or something. I can't process that information for some reason. It is blocked by something. I am not sure what that is. The words I use for it is: I have lost my soul somewhere, I heard it was in an chair in a non descript warehouse in Va. How do I retrieve it? I want it back![ This Message was edited by: Withdraw on 2005-11-11 08:14 ]"
Honestly? I dont really think it invalidates us at all. What would be your idea of "getting better"? And how does that idea compare to your idea of "getting validation"? All that remains of any perpetuation is the power we give to what was done to us....by allowing it rule over us once more. I view that as much more of a perpetuation than letting go.
Acceptance of our past does not mean denial of our past. However there is rarely ever absolute justice in the world, and that is obscured even more by our own perceptions of what we think we deserve or need.
I have to be very honest in saying that as far as I see it, all you need to do to get your soul back as you put it....is to reach out and take it. I dont know that their is another answer. No one is going to hand it to you.
Choosing to live proudly and without regret remorse or bitterness is the real challenge. Redefining you perspective of what counts in this life might be a good start.
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I understand what Withdraw is saying and what she is searching for. I have the same issue. I cant heal myself either. Please let me know when you find the answer!!
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I understand what she's saying too. I've been going through it for God knows how many years now. I think the point of a lot of the posts on here is that there IS no "answer". At least not one answer for everyone. People have posted what they've done to try and deal with it, nothing more. Sorry if those didn't meet up with your expectations.
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On 2005-11-11 08:08:00, Withdraw wrote:
"That post isn't to you Carmel. You probably knew that.
Ok, so moving on = healing? I don't get that. Doesn't that invalidate us somehow? Doesn't that perpetuate "the coverup" more? How can we achieve validation and stay "healed". That is one of the parts I am missing here. That function of my brain is faulty or something. I can't process that information for some reason. It is blocked by something. I am not sure what that is. The words I use for it is: I have lost my soul somewhere, I heard it was in an chair in a non descript warehouse in Va. How do I retrieve it? I want it back![ This Message was edited by: Withdraw on 2005-11-11 08:14 ]"
I really feel for you on this. Sometimes I feel like this too and there are so many other things I need to heal from besides straight it becomes overwhelming. I have tried counseling twice since being out to no avail.
What has helped me is finding these boards and reconnecting with other survivors. I get sad that I have no long term connections because when I went into the program I lost all my childhood friends. I also only surround myself with people that love and care about me now. For many years I allowed toxic people into my life that it just made things worse. Basically, I'm just here working with what I have and trying to make it through each day.
wc
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I think there are two main side effects to brainwashing.
There's almost always some trauma. And it's almost entirely perceptual. I got stuck thinking about this last night for a long time. I didn't mean to be shocking, but I think I did shock the shit out of our gracious radio hosts last night when I said I was Sammie's oldcomer. I just thought that, w/ very limited time and another caller holding the line, that was the quickest, most efficient way to explain that I was in there and when. I just didn't want to spend the entire hour rehashing, again and again, that yes, it was indeed horrible and obscene and bizarre. I dearly want to try and move the public discussion from the freak show aspect of it on to the point of why in the hell that shoud matter to anybody.
But I think I missed the mark. And so I'll keep on slinging ideas at the wall and see if I can find either a clever turn of a phrase or two or a longer string of words that's engaging enough to hold someone's attention long enough to get the point accross.
So there's this perception of trauma. If you--who had not had 10 years of involvement w/ the Seed--got slammed to the floor and held down or wittnessed that happening to others, that was truely frightening and traumatic. I didn't see it that way. Not that I thought it was good or right or that whoever was on the bottom of the dogpile that day deserved it or anything. I just knew there was no prevailing against the insanity and that, eventually, we'd all get out. Bruises and broken bones heal. They really and truely did NOT want anybody dying on their shift. There was a limit to how far Staff would let things go. It was all theatre. There was no real danger. I believed it and it kept me sane, or so I thought.
So I wasn't really scared of any external threat. My sincere apologies to everyone I didn't 'see' getting hurt.
The other side of it is much more difficult to explain, even to ppl who were there. It's all about what the process compels us to do to ourselves.
I can only remember about two moments in all the time I was in there when I was accutely and terrifyingly aware of this other side of the process.
One was when they stood up a girl who'd split for a couple of months. As they played out their predictable, Program scripted lines complete w/ tears and drama and all that, it became clear to me (I think to all of us) that they had forced this girl to have an abortion. That shocked me! Until that moment, I honestly thought that something like forced abortion was out of bounds; that staff would never dare go there, that if a girl turned up pregnant, it was an automatic ticket out. Like suicide, a permanent solution to a temporary problem (yeah, I had considered both).
As this horrifying reality dawned on me, I flashed back to just before my sister went into the Seed. And the pieces fell into place like some fucked up puzzle; the day in the hospital, the tears and all that. I think I split for the second time not long after that.
That was still about what they could do to us, though. Thick as a brick, maybe it was a survival tactic, but I still didn't clue in on how I was changing; not till Bobby R's marathon. Long story short, I got called on in a fairly typical come down rap and I delivered my lines as convincingly as I had to. I yelled at Bobby for being defiant because he kept swaying and making the kids who were marathoning him sort of prop him up while staring at the back of the wall. Not that I was actually mad at him or anything. Just that, well, that's what you had to do to get by. You had to put on a convincing act. Again, my apologies to anyone who took anything I said or did in there as sincere. I honestly thought we were mostly all on the same page and those who meant it, well, they were just pathetic and no concern of mine.
Next, Bobby's sister got called on. As soon as she started talking, Bobby's whole posture and demeanor changed. He got anxious and excited and... well, animated. He was searching w/ his eyes trying to find the source of his sister's voice and he could not find it! Still makes me cry today, damn it! All in a moment, I realized that 1) this kid had had enough, he was broken, damaged, unaware of his surroundings, 2) that it really didn't matter, they were not going to let up, he went back up the stairs w/ much "assistance" and the beating continued.
Then horrifying reality hit me like a boot to the head. I should break ranks, bolt for a phone (the office? no, out the door, over the fence and to the lumber yard next door) and call an abulance or his parents or any damned body before these crazy bastards killed Bobby. Was anybody else noticing? If I made a move, would it start a mass revolt or would they all just tackle me? I didn't know and, much to my shame, didn't have the guts to find out. Instead, I was relieved when Staff called for another song and it was just asif nothing had ever happened, except for one thing. I was fucking getting out of that place and away from those crazy people.
That's the real danger of therapeutic community or LGA style "therapy". It's fucking powerfully effective! Not the least bit theraputic or conducive to community building. But it damned sure works!
And it wasn't just a few of us, it didn't work on only the weak or sadistic or any such thing. It works pretty effectively on so many that the rare sane person who sees it happening and is not changed by it always comes off as the lunatic.
Inside those warehouses and foster homes, we got a potent, geared up, intense dose of something. But it works the same way in the general population. And most of us came to accept, for a time, behavior so far out of line w/ the rest of society that we have a hard time even convincing anyone that it happened. A lot of ppl have even remarked that, till they hooked up w/ other eye wittnesses, they weren't entirely sure themselves that it actually happened.
No social proof, no discussion, no one in sight acknowledging or even registering w/ facial expressions or other gestures that anything bad had happened. That's SO much more powerful than most people understand.
So that makes us different. Just that fact that, whether you ever sat yourself down with yourself and tried to figure it out, all of us have something in common w/ old Germans that most Americans can't fathom; even in the very moment when they're cheering on the ATF on live national TV fire bombing children in a weird little compound located closer to the bombastic Büsh kid's pretend ranch than the ranch is to the recenly incorporated 'town' of Crawford, Texas.
But is it really damage? Or is it education? Since I can't undo it, I just prefer to think of it as education. And I try to use what I've learned to sort of innoculate my kids against it and, for Christ's sake, to get the word out to as many others as will listen.
Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor
_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
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Drugs. Lots and lots of drugs.
Hey, that's MY line. :smile:
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I have done many native ceremonies, sweat lodges... etc, But never with the intent of recovering from Straight's trauma.
Withdraw, there's nothing wrong with you that a good old fashioned Bust Ass Rap® wouldn't fix. ::hehehmm::
Love ya! :wave:
_________________
http://fornits.com/SIBS (http://fornits.com/SIBS)
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On 2005-11-11 12:56:00, Antigen wrote:
"I think there are two main side effects to brainwashing.
There's almost always some trauma. And it's almost entirely perceptual. I got stuck thinking about this last night for a long time. I didn't mean to be shocking, but I think I did shock the shit out of our gracious radio hosts last night when I said I was Sammie's oldcomer. I just thought that, w/ very limited time and another caller holding the line, that was the quickest, most efficient way to explain that I was in there and when. I just didn't want to spend the entire hour rehashing, again and again, that yes, it was indeed horrible and obscene and bizarre. I dearly want to try and move the public discussion from the freak show aspect of it on to the point of why in the hell that matters to everybody.
But I think I missed the mark. And so I'll keep on slinging ideas at the wall and see if I can find either a clever turn of a phrase or two or a longer string of words that's engaging enough to hold someone's attention long enough to get the point accross.
So there's this perception of trauma. If you--who had not had 10 years of involvement w/ the Seed--got slammed to the floor and held down or wittnessed that happening to others, that was truely frightening and traumatic. I didn't see it that way. Not that I thought it was good or right or that whoever was on the bottom of the dogpile that day deserved it or anything. I just knew there was no prevailing against the insanity and that, eventually, we'd all get out. Bruises and broken bones heal. They really and truely did NOT want anybody dying on their shift. There was a limit to how far Staff would let things go. It was all theatre. There was no real danger. I believed it and it kept me sane, or so I thought.
So I wasn't really scared of any external threat. My sincere apologies to everyone I didn't 'see' getting hurt.
The other side of it is much more difficult to explain, even to ppl who were there. It's all about what the process compels us to do to ourselves.
I can only remember about two moments in all the time I was in there when I was accutely and terrifyingly aware of this other side of the process.
One was when they stood up a girl who'd split for a couple of months. As they played out their predictable, Program scripted lines complete w/ tears and drama and all that, it became clear to me (I think to all of us) that they had forced this girl to have an abortion. That shocked me! Until that moment, I honestly thought that something like forced abortion was out of bounds; that staff would never dare go there, that if a girl turned up pregnant, it was an automatic ticket out. Like suicide, a permanent solution to a temporary problem (yeah, I had considered both).
As this horrifying reality dawned on me, I flashed back to just before my sister went into the Seed. And the pieces fell into place like some fucked up puzzle; the day in the hospital, the tears and all that. I think I split for the second time not long after that.
That was still about what they could do to us, though. Thick as a brick, maybe it was a survival tactic, but I still didn't clue in on how I was changing; not till Bobby R's marathon. Long story short, I got called on in a fairly typical come down rap and I delivered my lines as convincingly as I had to. I yelled at Bobby for being defiant because he kept swaying and making the kids who were marathoning him sort of prop him up while staring at the back of the wall. Not that I was actually mad at him or anything. Just that, well, that's what you had to do to get by. You had to put on a convincing act. Again, my apologies to anyone who took anything I said or did in there as sincere. I honestly thought we were mostly all on the same page and those who meant it, well, they were just pathetic and no concern of mine.
Next, Bobby's sister got called on. As soon as she started talking, Bobby's whole posture and demeanor changed. He got anxious and excited and... well, animated. He was searching w/ his eyes trying to find the source of his sister's voice and he could not find it! Still makes me cry today, damn it! All in a moment, I realized that 1) this kid had had enough, he was broken, damaged, unaware of his surroundings, 2) that it really didn't matter, they were not going to let up, he went back up the stairs w/ much "assistance" and the beating continued.
Then horrifying reality hit me like a boot to the head. I should break ranks, bolt for a phone (the office? no, out the door, over the fence and to the lumber yard next door) and call an abulance or his parents or any damned body before these crazy bastards killed Bobby. Was anybody else noticing? If I made a move, would it start a mass revolt or would they all just tackle me? I didn't know and, much to my shame, didn't have the guts to find out. Instead, I was relieved when Staff called for another song and it was just asif nothing had ever happened, except for one thing. I was fucking getting out of that place and away from those crazy people.
That's the real danger of therapeutic community or LGA style "therapy". It's fucking powerfully effective! Not the least bit theraputic or conducive to community building. But it damned sure works!
And it wasn't just a few of us, it didn't work on only the weak or sadistic or any such thing. It works pretty effectively on so many that the rare sane person who sees it happening and is not changed by it always comes off as the lunatic.
Inside those warehouses and foster homes, we got a potent, geared up, intense dose of something. But it works the same way in the general population. And most of us came to accept, for a time, behavior so far out of line w/ the rest of society that we have a hard time even convincing anyone that it happened. A lot of ppl have even remarked that, till they hooked up w/ other eye wittnesses, they weren't entirely sure themselves that it actually happened.
No social proof, no discussion, no one in sight acknowledging or even registering w/ facial expressions or other gestures that anything bad had happened. That's SO much more powerful than most people understand.
So that makes us different. Just that fact that, whether you ever sat yourself down with yourself and tried to figure it out, all of us have something in common w/ old Germans that most Americans can't fathom; even in the very moment when they're cheering on the ATF on live national TV fire bombing children in a weird little compound located closer to the bombastic Büsh kid's pretend ranch than the ranch is to the recenly incorporated 'town' of Crawford, Texas.
But is it really damage? Or is it education? Since I can't undo it, I just prefer to think of it as education. And I try to use what I've learned to sort of innoculate my kids against it and, for Christ's sake, to get the word out to as many others as will listen.
Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor
_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82"
Perhaps I'll wait for the condensed version...
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Anon, you're an idiot...
A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another; shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement
Thomas Jefferson
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On 2005-11-11 18:09:00, 001010 wrote:
"Anon, you're an idiot...
Thanks, 001010. But no, he's not. I know who he is and regard him as a friend. I don't think I really wrote that for ya'll who already know the story. I was trying to explain it to those who don't.
So... you read the whole damned thing? Thanks! What do you think? Did I make a point? Any point? What was it? I'm really trying hard here to put together a string of words that will entertain our short attention span society long enough to fucking explain what the hell we're so upset about. Am I getting close? Any suggestions?
It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was
made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions.
There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to
govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be
masters.
--Daniel Webster
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I also only surround myself with people that love and care about me now. For many years I allowed toxic people into my life that it just made things worse.
Kudos to you, wc! Very well said. It's important to surround yourself with people that love and care about you (like the group) and to keep the 'toxic' druggies out of your life. You don't need them -- not at all. Their influence will only lead you to INSANITY, JAIL or DEATH. Deep down you have always known this. It's good to hear you say it here.
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On 2005-11-11 18:15:00, Antigen wrote:
On 2005-11-11 18:09:00, 001010 wrote:
"Anon, you're an idiot...
Thanks, 001010. But no, he's not. I know who he is and regard him as a friend. I don't think I really wrote that for ya'll who already know the story. I was trying to explain it to those who don't.
So... you read the whole damned thing? Thanks! What do you think? Did I make a point? Any point? What was it? I'm really trying hard here to put together a string of words that will entertain our short attention span society long enough to fucking explain what the hell we're so upset about. Am I getting close? Any suggestions?
I think that the fact that our story is so damn complicated makes it difficult if not impossible to whittle it down to something quick and easy that conveys all the horrors all at once. I think it will take our collective voice speaking out to really get the point across. I think that reporters comments to the effect that our story needs to be a movie was right on the money. That would present it in a way that the public's need for entertainment or its short attention span can handle. Meanwhile we should flood the airways with our voices...whenever we get the chance.
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I can see how if I had children, my experience with all this now would be very diffrent. But well that is one scar that will never heal.[ This Message was edited by: Withdraw on 2005-11-11 19:24 ]
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On 2005-11-11 19:10:00, Nonconformistlaw wrote:
Meanwhile we should flood the airways with our voices...whenever we get the chance.
Airways, printways, gossip circles, whatever! If you see what I see about our whole culture being poisoned by Program dogma, then just don't sit on your hands when you see examples of it in your own circles. Shit, you paid dearly for your education, more than most. Go and get paid.I'm glad some people have that faith. I don't have that faith. If there is a God, a caring God, then we have to figure he's done an extraordinary job of making a very cruel world.
--Dave Matthews, South African rock musician
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OK so where is the movie??
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On 2005-11-11 20:10:00, Antigen wrote:
On 2005-11-11 19:10:00, Nonconformistlaw wrote:
Meanwhile we should flood the airways with our voices...whenever we get the chance.
Airways, printways, gossip circles, whatever! If you see what I see about our whole culture being poisoned by Program dogma, then just don't sit on your hands when you see examples of it in your own circles. Shit, you paid dearly for your education, more than most. Go and get paid."
I see examples of how our society has been poisened by program dogma...I have for years. I refuse to sit on my hands and do nothing about it (thus the reason for going to law school)...the only question for me is...by what other medium of communication will I chose for RAMPANT TALKING OUT IN GROUP! Oh, let me count the ways! Now if I could only shake off the damn PTSD and other brainwashing side-effects so I can start talking up a storm.
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On 2005-11-11 21:51:00, JMA wrote:
"OK so where is the movie??"
None yet I'm afraid...the reporter just slipped in a comment to the effect that there should be a movie about straight and its survivors. I think its an excellent idea. I personally think the long term damage such as PTSD should be included as well. I just hope that reporter keeps making comments about a movie!
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[ This Message was edited by: Withdraw on 2006-02-28 22:21 ]
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On 2005-11-11 19:20:00, Withdraw wrote:
"I can see how if I had children, my experience with all this now would be very diffrent. But well that is one scar that will never heal.[ This Message was edited by: Withdraw on 2005-11-11 19:24 ]"
You should kill them.
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On 2005-11-12 05:47:00, dragonfly wrote:
"Wow! it sure is good to be on the same thread as Dr Fucktard again!
I have some haughty opinions about the deprogramming thing. Here is one of them. I think that a recovering phaser has to unrehabilitate with the same or equal force that he/she was programed.
There is something akin to brainwashing yourself that isn't actually brainwashing but is more taking the bull by the horns.
For a few years there I was on the way to becoming a Buddhist monk and as well I could train for that while working and being a divorced dad, I did. And everyday I saw the similarity of what I was doing with what I did in straight. And my point is, that in setting up a rigorous schedule and pushing myself in that way I think I began to understand how straight works on a physical level. Our entire biorythym was reworked, that is some deep deep shit that stays that way unless consciously addressed. So by creating a life that pushed me as hard, harder than straight, having a rock solid commitment in that and all the time opening digging looking praying, somehow I burned some new pathways in my guts and bones.
These are just my experiences and opinions about them. I'm self righteous but I'm sexy. [ This Message was edited by: dragonfly on 2005-11-12 05:49 ]"
What a joke.
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Nother thing. Now, this is just my opinion and I may well be all alone in it. But I think the idea that no one can ever understand what we've been through who wasn't there is an extremely toxic bit of black magic. If you say it and believe it, you damn yourself to a life of solitude. Not only do you miss out on the society you need, but you deny others the benefit of your own experience.
And the fact is that the Program is just another brand of the same cultism and slave making that has been a part of human culture for at least as long as we've been able to make permanent historical sribblings.
You think no one can understand, for example, how we all wittnessed and experienced obscene abuse and no one spoke up at the time? Bullshit. I think Ryan Grim is starting to get a clue. Check this out:
At some point, everyone ought to throw his or her political theory-whatever
it is-up against the wall of reality to see if it sticks. I ran smack into
that wall when the state shackled Mark, one of my best friends, and hauled
him off to a dank, violent, maximum-security prison for a 17-year stay. His
crime: possession of a spoonful of cocaine, some of which they said he
intended to distribute. The judge had recommended he be sent to a prison
that focuses largely on drug treatment, but it is hopelessly overcrowded. So
there Mark sits in Hagerstown, Md., his letters reflecting a mind slowly
losing its tether as violence and mayhem swirl around him.
Full Text: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =32&Sort=D (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=12625&forum=32&Sort=D)
When elephants ? ght, it is the grass that suffers.
Kikuyu proverb
_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
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On 2005-11-11 18:15:00, Antigen wrote:
"
On 2005-11-11 18:09:00, 001010 wrote:
"Anon, you're an idiot...
Thanks, 001010. But no, he's not. I know who he is and regard him as a friend. I don't think I really wrote that for ya'll who already know the story. I was trying to explain it to those who don't.
So... you read the whole damned thing? Thanks! What do you think? Did I make a point? Any point? What was it? I'm really trying hard here to put together a string of words that will entertain our short attention span society long enough to fucking explain what the hell we're so upset about. Am I getting close? Any suggestions?
It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was
made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions.
There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to
govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be
masters.
--Daniel Webster
"
Yeah, I read it all, and I felt it. I remember thinking I was one of the ones that wasn't going to fall for all that brainwashing, and yet it still sunk in. I'm thinking I really wish John Sullivan had written that piece he said he was going to on the mental torture and brainwashing aspect of the program.
It's so hard to explain being mentally and emotionally stripped and numb to things around you, unless you've ever lived with an abusive spouse, parent or relative. Even then, you don't get a taste of the power of mind control by repetition of habit, use of fear and physical and mental force in order for extreme change to occur.
Imagine you go on a vacation, and when you get there you are met by people who find you guilty before speaking to you - who's goal is to make you hate who your are/were, and replace it with their own ideas in order to get you to conform and transform into someone you are not. However in time, you can't help but to kill or be killed emotionally, so you submit, and that submission happens either subconsciously or consciously.
In order to prove this change had happened to the "tour guides" you must perform the way you were treated in the beginning. Some did it just to fit in, others got off on it like a power trip. What is complicated is that each of us had our own personal relationship with the demon programming. We became dark shadows of who we once were, grieving, mourning, and welcoming this dark change all at once. We were converted into dark abnormal social conformists in a world that only existed behind the walls of those warehouses. We were now ready to drink the kool-aid.
If we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion by education
--Thomas Jefferson
_________________
EST (Lifespring) '83
Salesmanship Club '84-'86
Straight, Inc. '86-'88
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My suggestion is to keep talking, you're doing great. We all explain our experiences differently, but then again we all sound like we're explaining the same thing. All of our experiences are unique, the problem is that we were all treated like we were clones of each other. Clones to become different clones when the process of our individual changes were complete.
_________________
EST (Lifespring) '83
Salesmanship Club '84-'86
Straight, Inc. '86-'88
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Fuckin A man, sorry, but people DO NOT GET IT, unless they have been through it. I have enough in common with the unjustly imprisoned to cry like mad when I see some of those movies. Other people eat their popcorn and fart and leave the theater and get ice cream.
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On 2005-11-11 19:20:00, Withdraw wrote:
"I can see how if I had children, my experience with all this now would be very diffrent. But well that is one scar that will never heal.[ This Message was edited by: Withdraw on 2005-11-11 19:24 ]"
I know you can be a strong woman. I know you can be a mother. Adoption is not a second-best choice. You will be blessed with children, if that is what you want.
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Withdraw, your comments really outline the way I am feeling lately. I have gotten on with what I can, I am a good member of society, have a good family etc. - however - I am tired of this screw up label that has been on me since the day I went in there.
I want to finally, once and for all, address what has been lurking in the forefront of my mind for the last 18 years.
Why am I still thinking I am doomed to failure as a worthless drug addicted piece of crap when everything I have done in the last two decades proves otherwise?
I have begun trying to find a shrink who might know how to address this, possibly.
There is a treatment that I am about to try, I cannot recommend it yet; but it sounds promising.
It is used a lot on vets and others with PTSD, though the thing that struck me was that my Dr. said that I knew myself the best and that it was most important to let my mind come up with what it would. Rather than put a label on me or make me fit some diagnosis, we are supposed to look in and somehow try to reprocess things.
This means to me that I will be addressing the exact experiences and things that planted these cooky ideas in my head in the first place.
Somehow the process is designed to work like sleep somehow and pull things up the same way we do at night when we process the day's events.
They say it has worked for about 75% of the vets who have tried it, so I think it is worth a try. All of the other counselors etc. that I interviewed really had no idea what I was talking about.
The PTSD fits the nightmares and certain other problems I have had, however doesn't address the firmly embedded system of beliefs I have had about myself and the world around me since I left there.
My hope is to get to these and in some way finally be able to enjoy my life without all the guilt and fear that it will be taken away.
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My boyfriend tried to tell me about EMDR, but I got mad and now he thinks I'm crazy and he won't talk to me anymore. :cry:
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Here is another treatment for PTSD:
What is a Thought Field Therapy?
Dr. Roger Callahan, the originator of Thought Field Therapy, defines field as "an invisible structure in space that has an effect upon matter".
Although fields cannot be seen or measured, the fields effects can be readily observed. You cannot see a magnetic field, for instance, but you can see its effect.
In TFT theory, the perturbations, which are considered to be the most basic cause of negative emotions, are contained in the thought field. Perturbations are comparable to what physicist David Bohm, Ph.D., calls "active information" which is a phenomenon where a very small amount of energy can have a tremendous effect upon a larger system.
There is a one-to-one correspondence (known in TFT terminology as isomorphism) between these perturbations and specific energy meridian points on the body, which, when stimulated in a specific sequence, result in healing.
What does a TFT treatment involve?
While a trained therapist is present, the patient is first asked to think about a troublesome issue. They are then asked to quantify their feelings on a scale of 1 to 10, with a 10 representing maximum distress. Next, the patient is asked to tap on his or her own body in specific places, or energy points, in a specific order. Following the treatment the patient is once again asked to think about their problem or issue and rate it, indicating how much distress they feel.
Typically, the patient reports that the distress is completely gone and even that they can't think about it at all! Of course, they are thinking about it because they are talking about it. However, the thought no longer holds the emotional charge that it once did. At this point the patient is now free of their problem, as they can no longer get back the original feeling of distress. Results seem to be permanent in most cases.
Is TFT painful?
No. TFT uses no instruments nor does it require you to talk at length about your problems.
Is TFT suitable for children?
Yes. The simplicity and safety of TFT makes it especially suitable for children. Children can use happy face drawings or their hands to indicate how upsetting or disturbing their problem is. TFT helps night terrors, anxiety, school phobias, fears, traumas and anger. This is an easy technique to use when talking therapy or conventional approaches might be intimidating.
What are TFT algorithms?
Dr. Roger Callahan discovered the algorithms working with thousands of patients. Algorithms are a precise code of nature that treat emotional distress at the root of the problem, in the energy field. The algorithms were determined using TFT diagnostic procedures. The algorithms are precise treatment sequences that are known to have a curative effect when applied to specific problems.
What if I don't believe the treatment will work?
You don't have to believe in TFT to have it work. It works with perfect strangers, infants and animals.
Has any research been carried out on TFT?
There have been no control studies on the success of TFT