Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Joyce Harris on October 17, 2005, 12:23:00 PM
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[ This Message was edited by: Joyce Harris on 2006-03-31 18:44 ]
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Here's what I say - stop this before it goes any further. You people have done enough damage to others, why do you insist on continuing? I'm not a Jeff Berryman fan, I don't even know the guy. Neither do any of you, and I'm sure none of you have bothered to pick up the phone to find out his side of the story.
And about WWASP Rebuttal site - I'd watch it. Anyone who wants to can post on there, so it could be people with an agenda, could be WWASP, could be anyone. I would take everything on that site with a very tiny grain of salt. Like I said - anyone can post THEIR opinions on there.
I just think that the energy wasted on bashing others who are trying to help the kids is out of control on Fornits and I think it should stop. I know I'm not alone, many others feel the same way. Lots of people who would have otherwise been great contributors to this site have left because they are disgusted.
Think about putting that energy to actually helping the kids. Instead of sitting around posting on Fornits, trashing and bashing others, you put that energy to something good, like say, writing to you congressmen? Making fliers and passing them out, letting people know what's going on? Something, anything, instead of hurting others.
Get a grip, folks. Stop this before it starts and turns into another bashing session. Remember, the enemy, if you want to call them that, post here too and love to get things stirred up. You are all falling right into their trap, don't you see it?
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On 2005-10-17 10:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
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I just think that the energy wasted on bashing others who are trying to help the kids is out of control on Fornits and I think it should stop.
I don't think that posting Berryman's connection to PURE (an organization who makes money off of referring kids to programs, sometimes programs whose directors are CURRENTLY charged with 7 counts of abuse) is bashing him. It's information and food for thought.
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Yes, it's bashing him just like you have bashed others on this site. It's a waste of time, a waste of energy, and none of you know him or have talked to him. It seems like you are all using others for you entertainment. I just say - STOP. Not just him, but anyone else involved in helping kids. You have no clue who this guy is, what he does, nothing. Nor do I. Until you do you should not waste your time and others making comments that, again, serve only to hurt people.
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On 2005-10-17 10:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Yes, it's bashing him just like you have bashed others on this site. It's a waste of time, a waste of energy, and none of you know him or have talked to him. It seems like you are all using others for you entertainment. I just say - STOP. Not just him, but anyone else involved in helping kids. You have no clue who this guy is, what he does, nothing. Nor do I.
How the hell do you know who I've supposedly bashed or not bashed. For that matter how do you know if I have or have not had a conversation with him????
Until you do you should not waste your time and others making comments that, again, serve only to hurt people. "
Quit trying to control what others say. It only hurts your credibility. :lol:
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Well, who IS Jeff Berryman, and what does his organization DO?
Some people do not even know who this person is, so there is NO bashing, just asking for information.
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Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#30521 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=4009&forum=9&start=0#30521)
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On 2005-10-17 10:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Yes, it's bashing him just like you have bashed others on this site. It's a waste of time, a waste of energy, and none of you know him or have talked to him. It seems like you are all using others for you entertainment. I just say - STOP. Not just him, but anyone else involved in helping kids. You have no clue who this guy is, what he does, nothing. Nor do I. Until you do you should not waste your time and others making comments that, again, serve only to hurt people. "
Funny, That's What Betty SaidFaith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction- faith in fiction is a damnable false hope.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor
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Yeah, holding anyone responsible is *so* fucking "bashing" and useless man. Who gives a fuck that Sue sent kids to Whitmore after theyve been accused and then charged with child abuse and Sues basically been doing nothing but.... referring kids to programs using her daugthers abuse story as her sob story and trying to gain credibility because of it (funny how we never see or hear from her daugther or ANY of her kids, isn't it?) making some 200K a year sending... children off to programs!
Sues a harpy edcon, and either SO stubborn, or apathetic (or maybe manipulated by the Suds?) that she doesnt care that the damned Utah cops charged one of her program operators with abuse she continues to send kids there.
Joyce, THANK YOU for opening this thread!
Jeff - WTF man? Arent you supposed to be in this for the kids? Why not to think about Joey and Zita for a minute.
Sue - what the hell are you smoking? When UTAH cops go after people theres a good chance they just might be doing what they're accused of. If youre supposed to be helping kids why put them in danger? Oh, and btw...
Why not take your own kids out of some gulags long enough for us to hear from them about what happened to them? Cos its about them, the kids, NOT you, NOT any individual out to make a buck, get popular or get sympathy for what happened to her kid. :roll:
All opinions and assumptions are hereby those of Niles? and do not express the views or opinions of fornits, the administrators of fornits, any poster at fornits, the butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker, Lemmywinks, nor do they necessarily reflect reality. Rub a dub dub, 3 men in a tub have absolutely nothing to do with this either, but theyd be happy to take any summons to court, 'cos they're squeaky clean!Religion is all bunk.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor
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Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#30521 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=4009&forum=9&start=0#30521)
Q. You have in fact, told parents that if they want adequate, non-abusive programs to go to Sue, haven't you?
A. Yes, I have.
Futher along...
Q. Tell me what investigation you've done of the programs that Sue Scheff uses between you first association with her on the Internet in 2001 and your conference in the summer of this year.
A. I have not investigated them.
Q. Then how can you make the statement that she steers parents to reputable programs?
A. On reasonable beleif. That's what she told me.
Q. You simply believed what she said?
A. Yes.
******
The depo goes on to talk about PURE programs, Red Rock and the two deaths that occured, Sorensen and the alleged rape by a staff member.
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OH, same ole story, I BELIEVED because Sue-said-so. And Sue alway tells the "truth." Right!
Whitmore Academy is not an "adequate, non-abusive program," no matter what Sue Scheff SAYS!
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All I know is Berryman apparently needs a serious reality check b/c whatever his affiliation is with Sue Scheff and PURE (#1) it contradicts his credibility as a self-proclaimed children's rights activist and (#2) it brings into doubt what his real agenda might be in soliciting information from program parents and teens and/or offering to "put them in touch" with persons who can "help them".
:smokin:
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IF Sue/PURE is still referring to Whitmore and IF, in fact she does not reveal that Cheryl Sudweeks is currently charged with 7 counts of child abuse to prospective clients/parents doesn't that constitute some kind of non-disclosure legal thingy?
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How could self-proclaimed child rights activist Berryman condone this? Why would these prospective clients not be entitled to this information? What possible reason could Sue or Jeff have to continue this?
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What reason? Come on! MONEY $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
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I was being facetious. :grin:
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I was personally disappointed in Jeff's silence concerning the Whitmore allegations - but I was disappointed in all the Trekker's.
I find it appalling they are so willing to ignore these allegations just b/c they are coming from one of Susan's cash cows.
I felt (and still do) that they should have spoken out in a united voice against a Trekker (Susan) referring to a program accused by multiple families (not just one kook) of abuse and neglect.
And please, spare me that garbage about sticking together and working together to bring down the one big bad wolf.
ISAC has it right - No one should be abused in the name of treatment. This includes the families that turn to PURE for advice and assistance, as well as those who call Teen Help, or Struggling Teens or any of them.
But to be fair - I have not heard that Jeff is still telling families to contact PURE. It could be he no longer does.
Unless some one comes forward and says otherwise, I prefer to believe he has at the very least, refrained from referring any more to PURE.
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Lots of people who would have otherwise been great contributors to this site have left because they are disgusted.
Say it isn't so! :roll: :lol:
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Again, who IS Jeff Berryman?
Another "WWASP parent?" Some type of "child advocate" who could STILL be in the position of referring parents to someone like Sue Scheff at PURE?
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I've tried to talk to Jeff before. He doesn't return my calls or email. But, from what I gather, he seems to fit the profile of an aging, unattractive, childless do-gooder who thinks he knows what's best for everyone else's kids; typical educrat/social worker type. You know the kind; one of those guys you just look at, shake your head and know he'll be among the first up against the wall when the revolution comes. I think he was a hall monitor in highschool and college.
You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence.
--Charles Austin Beard
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Ginger, I just love your sense of humor, Berryman a hall monitor, a real do-gooder. :razz:
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So, this Jeff Berryman just "knows parents out there somewhere" that he can refer to Scheff? Tried the "google" thing and came up with an author, attorney, and some guy in the theatre business. Guess that wasn't THIS JEFF BERRYMAN.
Wonder how he got "recruited" to be a TREKKER?
How he became a "believer?" Scary, huh?
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Jeff, like Mrs. D.VA (a PURE volunteer) posts on Struggling Teens. This is how he signs his posts over there:
"When I mount my horse, ALL THE WINDMILLS IN SPAIN TREMBLE!"
Personally, I think the guy should get off his high horse and pony up with an explanation as to what, if any, his affiliation with Sue Scheff/PURE is.
Inquiring minds want to know.
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Whoa!!! When Jeff Berryman mounts his horse, all the windmills in Spain tremble? What the heck does that mean?
And this is a person that anyone would rely on to help them make a decision about the welfare of their child? And it appears his advice is to go-and-ask-Sue-Scheff about a proper placement?
Something's wrong here folks!
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On 2005-10-17 18:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Whoa!!! When Jeff Berryman mounts his horse, all the windmills in Spain tremble? What the heck does that mean?
And this is a person that anyone would rely on to help them make a decision about the welfare of their child? And it appears his advice is to go-and-ask-Sue-Scheff about a proper placement?
Something's wrong here folks!
"
Hi-Ho Silver ... :rofl:
(http://http://images.art.com/images/-/The-Lone-Ranger-Silver--C10052293.jpeg)
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(http://http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_4_168.gif)
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Does Jeff Berryman not see the light?
Sue Scheff sent her daughter to an "abusive WWASP Program," then she LOUDLY complained about the "ed con" who referred her there, and understand she's filed a suit against WWASP for abusing her daughter.
What is the difference between Sue Scheff's complaints and filing a lawsuit and this:
Parents who were referred to Whitmore Academy LOUDLY complain about the "Referring person" who sent their children to Whitmore--Sue Scheff at PURE because THEIR CHILDREN WERE ABUSED AT WHITMORE. Then parents filed a lawsuit against the abusive owners. AND one of the owners is charged with criminal child abuse.
Why does Sue Scheff scream and shout that these parents, and their children are liars, that no abuse happened at Whitmore Academy, and Scheff continues to support the owners of Whitmore?
No one is calling Sue Scheff a liar, or denying that her daughter was abused, or saying Ms. Scheff has no right to file a lawsuit against those she claims abused HER DAUGHTER.
There is ONE BIG DIFFERENCE: none of the Whitmore parents have gone into the "referral business" to make money by sending other people's children into any RTCs, declaring these RTCs to be "safe" just because they are NON-WHITMORE. And most certainly, none of the Whitmore parents withdrew their children from Whitmore, yelling "Whitmore is abusive,"...yet scammed other desperate parents by collecting referral fees by sending these desperate parents TO WHITMORE.
One would think that Ms. Scheff and PURE owe these Whitmore students who were abused, and their parents one great big apology. Or a least the respect to not publicly try and discredit the students and parents who are victims in the criminal case.
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On 2005-10-18 07:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Does Jeff Berryman not see the light?
Sue Scheff sent her daughter to an "abusive WWASP Program," then she LOUDLY complained about the "ed con" who referred her there, and understand she's filed a suit against WWASP for abusing her daughter.
What is the difference between Sue Scheff's complaints and filing a lawsuit and this:
Parents who were referred to Whitmore Academy LOUDLY complain about the "Referring person" who sent their children to Whitmore--Sue Scheff at PURE because THEIR CHILDREN WERE ABUSED AT WHITMORE. Then parents filed a lawsuit against the abusive owners. AND one of the owners is charged with criminal child abuse.
Why does Sue Scheff scream and shout that these parents, and their children are liars, that no abuse happened at Whitmore Academy, and Scheff continues to support the owners of Whitmore?
No one is calling Sue Scheff a liar, or denying that her daughter was abused, or saying Ms. Scheff has no right to file a lawsuit against those she claims abused HER DAUGHTER.
There is ONE BIG DIFFERENCE: none of the Whitmore parents have gone into the "referral business" to make money by sending other people's children into any RTCs, declaring these RTCs to be "safe" just because they are NON-WHITMORE. And most certainly, none of the Whitmore parents withdrew their children from Whitmore, yelling "Whitmore is abusive,"...yet scammed other desperate parents by collecting referral fees by sending these desperate parents TO WHITMORE.
One would think that Ms. Scheff and PURE owe these Whitmore students who were abused, and their parents one great big apology. Or a least the respect to not publicly try and discredit the students and parents who are victims in the criminal case.
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Sheesh, when you get right down to it ... you'd have to be dumb as rocks not to see there is NO DIFFERENCE.
Good luck to the Whitmore parents and their children, the true victims of RTC abuse and exploitation at the hands of unscrupulous profiteers.
Berryman, if you are reading, I sincerely hope you awaken to the realization that it might be time for you to find a new "cause" because the way I see it, it looks very much like you are part of the problem, not the solution.
:smokin:
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Sue Scheff didn't sue WWASP, WWASP sued Sue Scheff. It cost her insurance company over a million dollars to defend her.
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Sue Scheff is suing WWASP now, at the present time, IS SHE NOT?.
Everyone knows that WWASP sued Ms. Scheff; and for exactly the same reasons that she criticizes Whitmore parents: for standing up for HER RIGHTS, and criticizing HER ed con, and for saying her daughter was abused in a WWASP facility.
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On 2005-10-18 10:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Sue Scheff didn't sue WWASP, WWASP sued Sue Scheff. It cost her insurance company over a million dollars to defend her."
Did they pay to defend Berryman, too? He was sued with Scheff.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Guess what? Sue Scheff won that WWASP lawsuit. And right along with Ms. Scheff, all parents WON the right to honestly criticize THEIR referring company, and an abusive facility. We have the same RIGHTS that Ms. Scheff has.
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On 2005-10-17 18:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Whoa!!! When Jeff Berryman mounts his horse, all the windmills in Spain tremble? What the heck does that mean?
It's a very clever reference to Don Quixote, tilting at windmills. I like it, actually. The more I get to know about Jeff, the sharper and more poignant is the irony.Forgive, O Lord, my little joke on Thee and I'll forgive Thy great big one on me.
--Robert Frost, American poet
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This does seem like a stark contradiction, doesn't it? Here's my theory. This is only a theory, just my best guess based on the information available to me.
In my opinion, Sue and Jeff and, likely, their supporters and affiliates haven't got any qualms over coercive brainwashing of troublesome youth. They're just okee-dokee w/ that, so long as the torment stops short of actually leaving visible marks that persist long enough to constitute physical evidence.
I don't believe in God. My god is patriotism. Teach a man to be a good citizen and you have solved the problem of life.
--Andrew Carnegie, Scottish-born American industrialist and philanthropist
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous
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On 2005-10-18 11:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Guess what? Sue Scheff won that WWASP lawsuit. And right along with Ms. Scheff, all parents WON the right to honestly criticize THEIR referring company, and an abusive facility. We have the same RIGHTS that Ms. Scheff has."
Yep, ain't it grand? Ironic as hell, too. Now the ed cons and program referral companies can't pass the buck on accountability b/c the more parents learn about this lucrative sub-cottage industry, the more likely they are to turn their hinky meters up!!!!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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On 2005-10-17 10:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Here's what I say - stop this before it goes any further. You people have done enough damage to others, why do you insist on continuing? I'm not a Jeff Berryman fan, I don't even know the guy. Neither do any of you, and I'm sure none of you have bothered to pick up the phone to find out his side of the story.
And about WWASP Rebuttal site - I'd watch it. Anyone who wants to can post on there, so it could be people with an agenda, could be WWASP, could be anyone. I would take everything on that site with a very tiny grain of salt. Like I said - anyone can post THEIR opinions on there.
I just think that the energy wasted on bashing others who are trying to help the kids is out of control on Fornits and I think it should stop. I know I'm not alone, many others feel the same way. Lots of people who would have otherwise been great contributors to this site have left because they are disgusted.
Think about putting that energy to actually helping the kids. Instead of sitting around posting on Fornits, trashing and bashing others, you put that energy to something good, like say, writing to you congressmen? Making fliers and passing them out, letting people know what's going on? Something, anything, instead of hurting others.
Get a grip, folks. Stop this before it starts and turns into another bashing session. Remember, the enemy, if you want to call them that, post here too and love to get things stirred up. You are all falling right into their trap, don't you see it?
"
Hey pal, I got news for you. Nobody who is in this for THE KIDS gives a damn if the "enemy" is reading Fornits. Hell, these teen helper sickos are cowards ... they hurt kids for fun and profit .. whether they operate abusive programs or just sell kids into them ... let em read here and stir it up all they want ... the fact is they are the ones who should be running for cover, don't you agree?
:wink:
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I agree they should be running for cover, I agree they are cowards and that they abuse innocent kids, and I agree that they should pay for every single act of abuse and manipulation that they have done. My concerns are that if you want to build a strategy and try to do something against "the enemy" typically you reveal your plans. It seems to me, too, that they're on here stirring things up and getting people upset. It's tough to differentiate who's who when so many post as anons.
We all care about the same thing - the kids and stopping the maddness. I guess we all have our own ideas of how to get there and what we can do to help. I just wish more people would become like-minded, form a coalition of sorts, and work together. I think one of the problems is that people who were in programs look at things so differently than those who were not.
I haven't figured out the whole Sue Scheff and Jeff Berryman issue. I only hope that their intentions are good and that they too have the kids' best interest at heart. I still can't grasp why Sue would promote programs that are abusive since she's been a victim - or I should say her daughter has been a victim - of abuse at a program. I thought money wasn't an issue for her, from what I heard in the past. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe things are not as they had appeared. I just hope that everyone is wrong about her and that she will prove to be who I thought she was. Jeff too.
As for those of you who are victims of programs. I can see how pissed off you would be if you thought someone who was supposed to be on our side was making money promoting programs - any programs - as most of you would rather there were none.
But in reality there will be programs and parents will send their kids to them. Sick, sad, I agree. But I know it won't end any time soon. I'm sure you are all aware of that too.
How about promoting those programs that are safe and effective, those that are close to home, where they hire professionals, PhD's, where the child goes during the day and comes home at night. And where the parents are involved in therapy so that the entire family is responsible for the problems, not just the teen. Parents need to remember that teens don't just wake up and decide to be bad. Something leads them there and the family needs to work together to figure out what went wrong, as a unit.
Anyway, I just hope that we'll get answers and that we'll know once and for all where these folks are coming from. I'd like to think they're still thinking about the kids' best interest, I really would.
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It is obvious that Sue Scheff, PURE does not have the kids' best interest at heart: otherwise the minute the Sudweeks were brought under investigation for child abuse against multiple children at the Whitmore Academy--Sue Scheff would have STOPPED REFERRING CHILDREN TO THAT FACILITY until the investigation was completed. Once the owner was charged with 7 counts of abuse--that SURELY should have given Sue Scheff good reason to belief it would not be "in the best interest of any kid" to be referred to Whitmore Academy.
Sorry you WANT TO BELIEVE otherwise; but those are the facts: Sue Scheff, PURE continued to refer children to Whitmore Academy KNOWING the Sudweeks were being investigated for criminal child abuse.
Sue Scheff is paid by the program; so what other motivation could be there except the almighty dollar?
If you have not read the WWASP Vs PURE transcript, then you should. It will spell out Sue Scheff's "high interest in earning lots of money" by referring kids to these programs. Maybe $200,000 ++ per year is not a lot of money to you; but to most people that is LOTS OF MONEY.
Use the search tool on this forum and read Sue Scheff's deposition. She lies about lots of things: her education, her staff, being an Educational Consultant, her own personal work history. These aren't "mistakes," they are lies. She knows she didn't have a college degree, so why lie and claim to have one?
And in the process of supporting the Sudweeks at Whitmore Academy, Ms. Scheff has lied about victims and parents.
Jeff Berryman's intentions? Have no idea. You'd have to ask him.
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On 2005-10-18 21:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I agree they should be running for cover, I agree they are cowards and that they abuse innocent kids, and I agree that they should pay for every single act of abuse and manipulation that they have done. My concerns are that if you want to build a strategy and try to do something against "the enemy" typically you reveal your plans. It seems to me, too, that they're on here stirring things up and getting people upset. It's tough to differentiate who's who when so many post as anons.
We all care about the same thing - the kids and stopping the maddness. I guess we all have our own ideas of how to get there and what we can do to help. I just wish more people would become like-minded, form a coalition of sorts, and work together. I think one of the problems is that people who were in programs look at things so differently than those who were not.
I haven't figured out the whole Sue Scheff and Jeff Berryman issue. I only hope that their intentions are good and that they too have the kids' best interest at heart. I still can't grasp why Sue would promote programs that are abusive since she's been a victim - or I should say her daughter has been a victim - of abuse at a program. I thought money wasn't an issue for her, from what I heard in the past. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe things are not as they had appeared. I just hope that everyone is wrong about her and that she will prove to be who I thought she was. Jeff too.
As for those of you who are victims of programs. I can see how pissed off you would be if you thought someone who was supposed to be on our side was making money promoting programs - any programs - as most of you would rather there were none.
But in reality there will be programs and parents will send their kids to them. Sick, sad, I agree. But I know it won't end any time soon. I'm sure you are all aware of that too.
How about promoting those programs that are safe and effective, those that are close to home, where they hire professionals, PhD's, where the child goes during the day and comes home at night. And where the parents are involved in therapy so that the entire family is responsible for the problems, not just the teen. Parents need to remember that teens don't just wake up and decide to be bad. Something leads them there and the family needs to work together to figure out what went wrong, as a unit.
Anyway, I just hope that we'll get answers and that we'll know once and for all where these folks are coming from. I'd like to think they're still thinking about the kids' best interest, I really would.
"
Oh for pete's sake, why don't you just come out of the closet and proudly proclaim yourself as a PROGRAM APOLOGIST?
I mean, it's either that or you are terribly naive. Please, do yourself a favor and read the ISAC files on Whitmore Academy and then come back and try to spin the facts.
:roll:
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//Anyway, I just hope that we'll get answers and that we'll know once and for all where these folks are coming from. I'd like to think they're still thinking about the kids' best interest, I really would.//
Well, I do understand your reluctance to believe motives aren't what you have for so long thought. Its painful to contemplate - but you really should look at the evidence.
If her motives truly were to provide safe counseling for wayward teens, she would have been very concerned with the allegations coming from Whitmore families; She would have imminently stopped all referrals there; she would have had respectful, open minded conversations with the families, in an honest attempt to ferret out the truth. Don't ya think? Isn't that reasonable to assume? If her motives were what she has always claimed . . .
She did none of that. What she did was go instantly into attack mode. She was in a blind rage and it was directed at anyone and everyone who dared to question her judgment; or her good friends, the "kind and loving" Sudwicks.
Personally, All I was asking her to do, as a concerned friend, was to halt referrals until things were cleared up. I hoped she could come to understand ISAC can not play "favorites". If they get a credible complaint from someone willing to put their name on it, they can not ignore it just b/c it is one of her programs. Anyone ought to be able to appreciate that.
I believe anybody whose motives really are the welfare of the kids would understand that.
I believe anyone whose motivation is safe therapy for troubled teens would take allegations of abuse and neglect seriously.
Seems clear to me, her actions prove this is not her motivation.
So what is?
Interestingly, her actions have been exactly what we see from Program persons all the time.
She has insisted the complaining families are lying manipulators with an agenda.
She points to how troubled the teens are, and how troubled the families are, as evidence they can not be trusted. She ignores totally, the troublesome facts that can't be denied. (Police reports and cruelly starved animals) She threatens, and if possible, incites litigation. She would very happily see ISAC destroyed b/c they dared to stand in their integrity - and will use any means at her disposal to destroy them - bar none. She gloats and crows about Bobby's law sute against them with obvious gLee.
Would she behave this way if she were concerned for the children - would she?
Ask yourselves - who wants to see ISAC destroyed? Why?
So, what could her motivation be?
How the Trekkers can not see the problem here?
I just don't know. Its a mystery.
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Ok, I think I know who this is. I won't name you, but please give careful consideration to what I'm trying to tell you, just asif I had called you out by name, ok?
On 2005-10-18 21:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
My concerns are that if you want to build a strategy and try to do something against "the enemy" typically you reveal your plans. It seems to me, too, that they're on here stirring things up and getting people upset. It's tough to differentiate who's who when so many post as anons.
Trust me, you're not the first one to have thought of that. Just don't get upset, ok? Just let them blather and posture and, occasionally, reveal their real thoughts and show their asses. They need secrecy. That's why all the slap suits and threats and other such nonsense. We, who just want the truth to be known and understood, have no such liability.
We all care about the same thing - the kids and stopping the maddness.
Yes, indeed. And you must understand that "we", in this case, includes the Program zealots; even the worst of the worst of them believe that they're the good guys and all others who question them are driven by some flavor of evil or other. Belief is not enough.
I guess we all have our own ideas of how to get there and what we can do to help. I just wish more people would become like-minded, form a coalition of sorts, and work together. I think one of the problems is that people who were in programs look at things so differently than those who were not.
Yes, I agree that's a big problem! See, we actually lived it while you just think you know something. Do you think we're all still children just because we're talking about things that happened when we were? If so, please work to clear that misperception from your mind. We're not children. We're parents ourselves. And our kids have not all magically turned out as perfect honor roll geeks or child proteges. We deal w/ the very real difficulties of raising kids ta day just as anyone else does. We're not at all blind to that aspect of things.
I haven't figured out the whole Sue Scheff and Jeff Berryman issue. I only hope that their intentions are good and that they too have the kids' best interest at heart.
Well, you could just sit there in the dark and hope. Or you could ask around among a broad variety of people who actually know something, ask for opinions, support for such opinions, documentation of various kinds then form your own opinions.
I still can't grasp why Sue would promote programs that are abusive since she's been a victim - or I should say her daughter has been a victim - of abuse at a program. I thought money wasn't an issue for her, from what I heard in the past. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe things are not as they had appeared. I just hope that everyone is wrong about her and that she will prove to be who I thought she was. Jeff too.
My personal opinion is that the money is just icing on the cake. I know the neighborhood in which Sue lives. It's one of those Westinghouse planned communities full of yuppies w/ more money than brains and very little foresight. I get the feeling that Sue's current level of income is just about the level of comfort to which she has become accustomed through birth and marriage and, if rumors are correct, a litigious bent.
No, I think the real driving force for Sue is just the same as most of our own parents. She doesn't really have a problem w/ invasive, destructive behavior modificaion. Emotional and psyche abuse are ok. But she (like many) just haven't connected all the dots (yet?) to understand how the level of mindfucking routinely employed in this industry sets up the perfect environment for the more overt, less deniable forms of abuse that have recently come to your attention.
As for those of you who are victims of programs. I can see how pissed off you would be if you thought someone who was supposed to be on our side was making money promoting programs - any programs - as most of you would rather there were none.
But in reality there will be programs and parents will send their kids to them. Sick, sad, I agree. But I know it won't end any time soon. I'm sure you are all aware of that too.
I couldn't agree more. The industry doesn't exist in a vacume. It's a natural and complimentary adjunct to the less invasive, more broadly accepted anti-youth aspects of our culture. It's taken us several generations to reach this point and I'm convinced it will take awhile to get back to some saner way of doing things, if we ever do get there.
How about promoting those programs that are safe and effective, those that are close to home, where they hire professionals, PhD's, where the child goes during the day and comes home at night. And where the parents are involved in therapy so that the entire family is responsible for the problems, not just the teen. Parents need to remember that teens don't just wake up and decide to be bad. Something leads them there and the family needs to work together to figure out what went wrong, as a unit.
Great idea! Name them, please! You have a great resource here and on many other websites to get solid information about just about any school or program out there. Use it. Just disregard the ad hominem attacks and other assorted bullshit and just focus on checking facts.
I don't think parents need to find good programs w/ credentialed staff so much as they need to remember that humans have been raising children w/o professional assistance for all of our existance up until the past 30 years or so. There is no authoritative owner's manual. There is no valid expertise above good old fashioned mom-fu in this field of endevour. It's so damned obvious, isn't it? How do you not spot bullshit like "over 50% of school age children are abnormal" or Oppositional Defiant Disorder? Come ON now! Have you spent time w/ schoolpeople lately? Really looked into how we're treating our kids ta' day? I think it takes a neurotic personality to NOT oppose and defy some of these little aging bullies.
Most of the time, the kids are not the ones w/ the disorders. It's the parents who have a frail grasp on reality. If it were really about helping kids to sort things out, they'd be marketing to the kids. But they don't, do they?
Much of the time, all the kid needs is to get out from under the control of crazy parents. And, most of the time, kids in that sort of situation take steps to bring that about.
Anyway, I just hope that we'll get answers and that we'll know once and for all where these folks are coming from. I'd like to think they're still thinking about the kids' best interest, I really would.
"
Sure, they're thinking they know better than anyone what's best for everyone. Just hear them out and see what they say themselves about their beliefs. You'll find gems, if you look for them, like "most teens are dishonest" and "of course teenagers don't want what's best for them, you have to force them to it".
They believe this bullshit. They really do. That's what makes them dangerous. I'm only half kidding when I wonder when they'll start throwing bomb laden virgins at us. They're that fervent in their faith. But it's just that; faith, just a belief not founded in fact at all.
Now please, if you want to help, lend an ear to those of us who have been there and given much thought to the whole epoch. Don't insult us by assuming that everything we do or say is driven by some neurotic attachment to decades old vendettas. Consider, at least, how resillient the human spirit is, that maybe most of us have actually sorted out the emotional baggage and that our observations on the whole issue may be based on long term observation, solid information and well reasoned assessment. In other words, condescention will get you nowhere that you want to be.
G: "If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do?"
EB: "Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area."
-- Somewhere in No Man's Land, BA4
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Hmmmm, wonder who this person is?
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(http://http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/8805/ad54zv.gif)
Ed Cons and Program Referral Agents doing the Chicken Dance
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(http://http://www.steliart.com/images/chickendance.gif)(http://http://www.steliart.com/images/chickendance.gif)(http://http://www.steliart.com/images/chickendance.gif)
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You made some good points Ginger, definitely worth thinking about.
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On 2005-10-20 08:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You made some good points Ginger, definitely worth thinking about."
Thanks :nworthy: screening pre-school kids for anti-social behavior is about as useful as screening the Christian Coalition for sanctimonious behavior.
Sanho Tree
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Still think there's a whole lot of money motivation working here with PURE, though. It's not just "icing on the cake" for Sue Scheff. Money is what drives her!
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Well, if that's the case then it's extremely sad. Plenty of us have trusted her in the past and thought she genuinely cared about the kids. All I know is that anyone who is out there profiting from this industry is sick, in my book, because the industry is sick as a whole.
The idea of parents giving up way too quickly on their kids, putting them into the hands of stranger, falling for their shit i.e. can't talk to your kid for months. I still don't get how a parent can fall for this, I just can't. I'm a parent and I have never gone a day without talking to my child. I can't imagine that anyone on earth could convince me it would be a good idea to let someone, a total stranger, completely control every aspect of my child's life, force me to go to seminars, and not allow me to even speak to my child. Nothing in me believes that could be a good thing, nothing.
First of all ... parenting children is a full-time job, plain and simple. Parents of today are busy with jobs and their own personal lives. Many are divorced and out there trying to start a new life. During the divorce process the kids suffer big time. Parents, I think, overlook that fact. They are so busy worrying about themselves and how they are going to survive that the kids fall by the wayside. Until problems start. And sometimes the problems are big and the parent feels they can't control them. But if they would stop and think about it for a while they might come to realize that yes, they can help their child get their own lives back in control. They can do it with love and kindness, most of the time. I understand that sometimes some kids do get really wacked out on drugs, etc., but I also know that the majority of the kids being sent to these programs are not like that. Many are simply kids whose parents dont' want to deal wtih any more.
I don't have time to keep writing right now but I am disappointed that our society has gotten to this point, that parents can't even feel empowered to parent their own children, that they think they have to turn them over to someone else for help.
Parents, if your child is out of control or if you feel life is out of control, try seeking some good counseling and try talking to your child. The thing is with teens you need to listen, to find common ground, to spend time on their level, their interests, you'd be surprised.
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ALL PARENTS WITH TROUBLED TEENS READ THIS:
On 2005-10-20 14:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
Parents, if your child is out of control or if you feel life is out of control, try seeking some good counseling and try talking to your child. The thing is with teens you need to listen, to find common ground, to spend time on their level, their interests, you'd be surprised.
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FYI
Scheff only won her lawsuit because of the testimonies of credible witnesses. Parents and ex employees. Herself not included. The pictures the Private Investigator took of High Impact helped substantiate her original post on Struggling Teens. WWWAP abuses kids etc.The jury was appalled.
The Utah boys laughing in the front row for the jury to see didnt help their case either IMO.
The truth is IMO S.S. doesnt like to be questioned. Her ego doesnt allow such adacity from others who are in the know. She will get her's someday. In the mean time to equate her with others such a L.P. in florida or L.I. in Utah would not be much of a stretch.
What goes around comes around they say.......
Jeff is a good guy. He just doesnt know she has sent his picture of himself in front of the computer across the internet. A true friend she isnt.
Jeff wise up. Or at least be careful with what you share unless you'd like everyone else to see.
It's safe with me.
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what do you mean she has sent a picture of him across the internet, of him sittting at his computer?????
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You are fast.
I'm not sharing. Its safe with me.
Next .
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For we who are not totally familiar with all the WWASP/PURE--who is L.P and L.I.???
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Why in the world would Sue Scheff send out a picture of Berryman sitting at a computer? Her way of making fun of him as he sits at the computer constantly doing "little work for Miss Sue?"
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A "naughty" picture?
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Maybe Jeff has a picture of Sue from her on-line-dating-please-find-me-A-DATE!! profile he could share?
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I would love to see that picture of Sue!!!!!!!
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The marketing experts Lynn Pretzelfield and Lisa Irvine.
They say what they need to say to get a kid enrolled.
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Great post, anon. I think I can explain some of this to you.
On 2005-10-20 14:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
All I know is that anyone who is out there profiting from this industry is sick, in my book, because the industry is sick as a whole.
Yeah, but most of them really don't know it. Like any good zealot, they think they're the nobel martyrs in this story.
I still don't get how a parent can fall for this, I just can't. I'm a parent and I have never gone a day without talking to my child. I can't imagine that anyone on earth could convince me it would be a good idea to let someone, a total stranger, completely control every aspect of my child's life, force me to go to seminars, and not allow me to even speak to my child. Nothing in me believes that could be a good thing, nothing.
Really? Do you plan on sending your kids to school? Granted, it's not 24/7 or thousands of miles away. And you can, if you sign in at the office, check in on your kids in class whenever you wish. But they also take great liberties w/ telling other people's children how to view the world, what is and isn't important, how to think and behave, etc. It seems perfectly normal to us now--everybody did it, everybody does it. But it's really just a matter of degrees. When mandatory schooling first made it's entrée on the American scene, there were riots. Some kids were actually taken from their homes at gunpoint by authorities over the protests of weeping parents.
There's been a gradual shift from total faith and fidelity in family more toward faith and fidelity to various other authorities; the state, the professionals, daytime talkshows modeled after encounter groups for just a few examples. But it is just a matter of degrees. Some are further along down that path than others.
As to the seminars, why that's not a bug, it's a feature! LOL. Really, I cringe whenever I read some well intended person suggest that what this industry needs is more parent involvement! That's exactly how they sell the seminars; as extra bonus treatment for the whole family, and all included in the price of tuition. I've read many times that they really don't emphasise the mandatory seminar completion till they've got one in the chair already and looking toward the door before a very biased and potentially hostile audience of peers.
I don't have time to keep writing right now but I am disappointed that our society has gotten to this point, that parents can't even feel empowered to parent their own children, that they think they have to turn them over to someone else for help.
Yeah, me too. But I think this is like a lot of other problems that we face today; an unintended consequence of the Industrial Revolution. Don't get me wrong. I'm not a Luddite! I think there are plenty of good and valuable technologies and philosophies coming to us from the Greatest Generation. But the law of unintended consequences dictates that, in order to settle the estate, we have sort the good and valuable from the worthless and destructive and try to improve on their work.
Parents, if your child is out of control or if you feel life is out of control, try seeking some good counseling and try talking to your child. The thing is with teens you need to listen, to find common ground, to spend time on their level, their interests, you'd be surprised.
"
Yeah, about that. All good advice, but one more thing. Very important! Don't check your skepticism at the therapist's door! Listen to what they say, tell them only as much as you're comfortable confiding in them, and think for yourself about whether or not they're making any sense. There are still 'family therapists' out there who identify strongly w/ Dr. Phil. I know there are a couple, at least, still refering people to Straight, Inc. spin offs.
Every man has a property in his own person.
This nobody has any right to but himself.
The labor of his body and the work of his
hands are properly his.
--John Locke
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Good point, Ginger. Not all therapists are good and it's important to weed them out. If you're not comfortable with the questions being asked or their approach I'd look for another one. I think if there's any way of working things out at home with your own family, your own kids, all the better. I would only recommend therapy if a parent feels it's beyond what they can handle. Personally, I think there are too many therapists who are quick to suggest kids be sent to programs. And parents think they're the professionals so they must be right. The good thing is that this is getting out there to the mental health professionals so hopefully they won't be recommending these places quite so often. One can hope.
For me, no, I'm not sending my child to any program. In fact, I've been extremely lucky in that neither of my children have caused us any problems to speak of. They're normal kids and I'm not saying it's never been trying. We've just never had to deal with the really hard stuff. I count my blessings every day. I think we're in the home stretch now - one is 24 and married and the other is 18. I stayed home for 18 years to raise them and was very involved in their education, sports, etc. It's the best thing I ever did in my life. When my first one was born I just couldn't bring myself to dropping him off with a stranger and we did not have family close by. So instead of going back to work I stayed home. I worked at home so that I could always be there for them. It was not always easy, and leaving my career was tough at first. But when I saw what was happening to my friends' kids who were from families where both parents worked, or where there was divorce, I was thankful for the opportunity to stay home. When my second was born I felt the same way and stayed home again. I know everyone can't do that but I encourage anyone who can to do it.
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They're normal kids and I'm not saying it's never been trying. We've just never had to deal with the really hard stuff.
I just reread my post and felt the sentence above could come off that I mean other kids are not normal - that was not what I meant, just clarifying that point.
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I think it's largely a matter of perspective and practice. The kinds of parents who will fall for all the quack dx early on are the ones who get into trouble later on.
I had a very good friend in first grade who showed up in second grade dazed and drooling into his lap, shuffled into the slow track. There were 4 or 5 of us who goofed off together. Granted, we were a pain in the ass to the teachers. But I don't think any of us were disordered. I think we were just high energy, playful kids. We all show up to the first day of school, happy to see each other, only Drew just wasn't all there. It was really disturbing!
The rest of us, who's parents resisted the directives to treat our 'hyperactive disorder' with speed continued to entertain each other by vexing our teachers, but we did so in the average or advanced tracks. Drew just sat there among the other slow track kids, day after day, drooling into his lap. I imagine he was among those early trials who, they later found out, had been overmedicated to the point of permanent neurological damage.
What a profound betrayal. I think the parents who are vulnerable to the troubled parent industry scam are the very same ones who bought into each successive bogus early childhood dx. They've always seen their kids as a problem and never believed themselves competent to deal with things as they happen.
How oppositional and defiant would you be by the age of 15 if, every time you got upset or got into mischief or some teacher or other authority figure drew you into their highly unpleasant flight of fancy, your own parents looked right through you and, instead, went along w/ the whatever crazy ideas the pill pushing child psychology experts had to offer that year?
That's why I cringe every time someone suggests that parents in trouble should just go see a shrink. I suspect that very often, maybe more often than not, the root of the problem is the quack shrinks.
for nothing can keep it right but their own vigilant and distrustful superintendence.
--Thomas Jefferson
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous