Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => CEDU / Brown Schools and derivatives / clones => Topic started by: Anonymous on September 28, 2005, 07:10:00 PM
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I have the same problem I've been seeing amongst others around this site. A younger family member of mine was sent to Rocky Mountain Academy, and his parents won't talk to me about the place.
Clinical services at the school, or from what I read, possibly at NIBH, diagnosed him with bipolar disorder, and I believe he met with a man named George Ulrich, so that would mean they prescribed something to him?
Those who know about the whole medication process at CEDU, can you help me out a bit and tell me what he faced? What meds were the most popular in cases of bipolar (and therefore likely prescribed to him)? Is there a possibility of wrongdoing in his diagnosis in the name of profit?
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If you do a search on Dr. Ulrich on this site, you will find postings by ex staff and students who question his medical ethics. It seems that he was an over prescriber. (Make sure its the right Doc because I seem to recall hearing about a LARS Ulrich.)
Many kids are often mislabled bipolar for the purpose of convenience. Some people would rather slap a label on someone and medicate them then take responsibility or figure out what is really going on.
There are various different meds for bipolar disorder, ranging from the traditional Lithium to anti convulsants that also help people with epilepsy or migraines. I know Depakote and Verapamil are also prescribed. Even fish oil. It depends on the severity of the disorder as well as the type of bipolar, I or II. Type I is the classic manic depression; type 2 is a little more nebulous. It includes depression with irritability and a milder mania, hypo-mania. Supposedly, type II shows up earlier than type I. Many people with Type II that I know of say their condition can be greatly improved with a low sugar diet, exercise, and daily high doses of fish oil, which acts as a mood stabilizer. (Tons of new research on this.)
But what the hell? Don't listen to me, I'm not a doctor. I just play one on TV.
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http://bipolar.about.com/od/medications/ (http://bipolar.about.com/od/medications/)
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If you do a search on Dr. Ulrich on this site, you will find postings by ex staff and students who question his medical ethics. It seems that he was an over prescriber. (Make sure its the right Doc because I seem to recall hearing about a LARS Ulrich.)
Lars Ulrich is from Metallica, silly! :wink:
(Or maybe you knew that already and were joking?)
I wonder what kinds of things Lars would have prescribed?
He probably would also yell at you in raps for pirating his music and shorting him another $15.00 in CD sales.
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Lars, George... Whatever. They both specialize in alternating moods. I mean altering moods.
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Haha. Thanks for your responses. Which doctor do you play?
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I forgot to add that clinical services at the school will most likely show bias in favor of diagnosing a student in an effort to either justify the student's enrollment or justify giving meds that may make the student more compliant.
It's tricky. I've known a lot of people in the psychiatric field, and it is difficult to find true competency. There are a lot of caring people, but not a lot of gifted psychs. Why? Because unlike diabetes or high blood pressure, mental illness cannot be proven by blood or other medical tests with certitude.
Every time my friends and I look over the criteria for different mood or personality disorders, we end up diagnosing everyone we know, including ourselves, with every disorder imaginable.
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My son was on 5 meds before he was at BCA and Dr. Ullrich REDUCED the number to 2.
So I don't think he always over medicated. His goal was to get my son to have the lowest dosages of the least number of meds.
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Dr. Ulrich was the one that eventually pulled me off of meds.
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On 2005-10-27 17:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"My son was on 5 meds before he was at BCA and Dr. Ullrich REDUCED the number to 2.
So I don't think he always over medicated. His goal was to get my son to have the lowest dosages of the least number of meds.
"
Congratulations. Your kid was lucky. Way to invalidate the rest of us who were on zero meds before BCA and ended up drugged out of our minds on seraquil and lithium and whatever other goodies Ulrich had in store for us.
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ulrich was out of control... was barely 100 lbs and he had me on 3 meds--depakote, zoloft and trazadone--and before i left, he was planning to put me on tegretol. yeah, what a way to keep someone down.
one kid was on, i think, 13 med. he eventually got off, but i remember the torture he must have went through drinking crushed up pills in apple cider when some guys broke into the medicine closet-thing at RMA.
im on nothing now. diet has really helped.
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What was the purpose of that particular mix? What does each med do?
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That's what I never understood. It was commonplace to see a kid down about 5 or 6 different pills in the med line at night. How the fuck could any of them have been doing any good when they're mixed together like that? And some of those anti depressants that made kids gain a ton of weight, how the fuck is that supposed to help a kid's depression?? "Yeah well you might be a fatass now but at least you won't cry about anything else anymore".
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But why Depakote AND Zoloft AND Trazadone?
I know depakote is given more for mood stabilizing purposes (bipolar), zoloft as an anti-d, but what is trazadone?
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They labeled the kid as bipolar, they labeled the kid as depressed, and boom - a couple days, maybe a short trip to Acute at NIBH for some behavior regulating and 'med adjustment', and a few more bucks in Ulrich's pocket later, and the kid is on anti-depressants, mood stabilizers, and whatever other goodies Santa Ulrich had for all the good little boys and girls in his sleigh. Lithium, seraquil, aderol, depakote, zoloft, zyprex-something...if you walked up to a random kid at BCA or RMA and asked them what drugs they were on, chances are they were on something, and chances are they'd rattle off a few drugs on that list.
It wasn't really a question of whether the kid needed it or not. It was a question of whether the parents would give consent or not. Once they gave their consent, well it wasn't hard for the 'clinical' staff there to find some condition to match a drug to.
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for sleep
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Ok I mean sleeping pills are sleeping pills. When your "bedtime" is 9:30 at night, of course people are gonna need sleeping pills.
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On 2005-10-28 15:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"for sleep"
Trazadone is actually an anti-depressant. But it also helps with sleep, and is used a lot because it's non-addictive unlike a lot of sleep aids out there. I used to take it years ago. It knocks you on your ass, and I was an adult. I can't imagine what it must do to a teenage brain. That kid must have been a zombie.
So, Dr. Ulrich would just start kids out on several meds at once? That's unusual. Normally, a doctor will start someone out on one med, and if they are still having problems after the med becomes effective and is in their system regularly, (which could take weeks or months) they will alter the dose. Then, if that doesn't help, they would consider either changing the med, or if the med is helping but not as much as it could be, they would introduce an additional, supplemental medication. This is why it can often take years for psych meds to be adjusted properly. And the scenario I am talking about here is for adults. With teenagers, I would think that one would have to tread even lighter and be even more careful, because the teenage brain is very different physiologically from the adult one.
And if someone is diagnosed as bipolar, they shouldn't be on any antidepressants at all. They should only be on mood stabilizers. Antidepressants can actually exacerbate the instability. They can work in the short term, but they will tend to lose their effecacy after about a year or so, and the person will "crash" (oftentimes becoming even more depressed). If that kid was diagnosed as bipolar, he shouldn't have been on zoloft or trazadone at all.
More importantly, I just don't think that RMA was a conducive environment to have any sort of effective psychiatric practices take place. The predominant ideology there is almost in conflict with the idea of psychiatric medicine, so I was surprised when I heard that they began medical treatment there. (Like there was anyone within the CEDU system who was knowledgable enough to be able to choose competent psychiatric staff and know how to monitor them effectively to begin with, you know?) I mean, who did Dr. Ulrich report to? Who was his superior who made sure he was practicing safe medicine? It obviously wasn't another psychiatrist, because I was told he was the only one there. So, what, another CEDU staff was? Like they would know? You can't just have a school and then "tack-on" psychiatric treatment, almost as an afterthought, to attract a wider audience of customers. In my opinion, a school has to be built from the ground up with a solid understanding of psychiatric principles and it has to be a part of their foundation, with a large psychiatric staff on hand, so that there is more than one doctor's opinion available. The way RMA did it was almost in a slapdash sort of way.
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Tegretol and prozac and something else was what I was on. They should of called it the "zombie mix" because I was basically falling asleep all the fucking time. I was fine when I was just on tegretol, but for awhile they way they had overmedicated me was ridiculous. I was like the walking dead. Couldn't keep my eyes open in raps.
If you think the anti-depressants put weight on people, what about all that fatty bread they served. I can't put weight on if my life depended on it, but most people plumped up very quickly after arriving at RMA. Especially girls. That's why every time a hot new girl arrived guys would just go ballistic.
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Try Another Castle: Your last post was bull's eye. I wish more people understood the complexity of finding the right dose/mix etc.
Unfortunately,CEDU not only incorporated pseudo therapeutic tools of questionable repute on minors, but also slapdash medical practices as well. A former staff member said that CEDU introduced therapists and psychiatrists because they HAD to. They did it for compliance reasons only. All of the former therapists who posted here said their warnings were ignored and they were basically there for CEDU to "look good." Then you have shrinks like ULrich who overmedicated many which also kept people nice and compliant.
Sometimes I think this is reflective of socity in general. There are so many over medicated kids for ADD or mood disorders that are simply related to boredom, diet, or normal teen hormonal angst. People think it's easier to give their kids a pill rather than ride the coaster and think of creative ways to deal with their problems.
When I was observing teachers last year I was actually impressed with how most kids kept up considering how difficult it is to stay in your seat and listen to monotony all day every day. The kids who acted up out of restlessness... well, I could appreciate why. But those are the ones who will be drugged. Do you know how many teachers would make remarks like "this kid definitely has ADD..." and I would think "no, you are just spectacularly boring."
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I remember when I went to CEDU I gained 15 pounds on all that crap they served, but I was in better shape because of all the labor. I just remember being in a rap and the family head screaming at me for giving everyone a boner with my too tight pants. Which was only because I couldn't fit into anything!!
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On 2005-10-28 15:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"for sleep"
Trazadone is an anti-depressant, but I
think it is not too effective for that
purpose.
It is definately a sleeper though!
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Is an older Tricyclic that is a sleeper too!
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On 2005-10-29 07:09:00, shanlea wrote:
The kids who acted up out of restlessness... well, I could appreciate why. But those are the ones who will be drugged. Do you know how many teachers would make remarks like "this kid definitely has ADD..." and I would think "no, you are just spectacularly boring."
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Too bad schools didn't have some wood to split or
something brief and active to try, instead of a
quick off the cuff diagnosis.
"If you can't control yourself you can go split wood for 30 minutes"
Would be more refreshing than:
"You are definately ADD go to the nurse"
Hopefully more effective ... :question:
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On 2005-10-29 08:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-10-29 07:09:00, shanlea wrote:
The kids who acted up out of restlessness... well, I could appreciate why. But those are the ones who will be drugged. Do you know how many teachers would make remarks like "this kid definitely has ADD..." and I would think "no, you are just spectacularly boring."
"
Too bad schools didn't have some wood to split or
something brief and active to try, instead of a
quick off the cuff diagnosis.
"If you can't control yourself you can go split wood for 30 minutes"
Would be more refreshing than:
"You are definately ADD go to the nurse"
Hopefully more effective ... :question: "
Wait are you kidding? Too bad they didn't have some wood to cut? That had to be a joke, right? Behind only whacking off and getting yelled at in raps, I spent most of my time at BCA sawing and splitting wood...
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On 2005-10-28 22:00:00, absolutebest wrote:
"Tegretol and prozac and something else was what I was on. They should of called it the "zombie mix" because I was basically falling asleep all the fucking time. I was fine when I was just on tegretol, but for awhile they way they had overmedicated me was ridiculous. I was like the walking dead. Couldn't keep my eyes open in raps.
If you think the anti-depressants put weight on people, what about all that fatty bread they served. I can't put weight on if my life depended on it, but most people plumped up very quickly after arriving at RMA. Especially girls. That's why every time a hot new girl arrived guys would just go ballistic. "
I remember a ton of kids who literally looked like zombies. They'd be falling asleep in raps all the time, they'd be asleep in a chair or on a couch at night, and then looked the worst stumbling back from all the work assignments staff put them on for being tired all the time. Those kids were taking a lot of pills. I was standing there talking to my main man Gregg Andrick one night while he was running the med line, and this one kid steps up and palms 8 different pills. Now six of those were just double doses of the same thing, but five separate medications? The kid was in rough shape. And he stayed like that until his parents finally pulled him after about 18 months.
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On 2005-10-29 08:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
Wait are you kidding? Too bad they didn't have some wood to cut? That had to be a joke, right? Behind only whacking off and getting yelled at in raps, I spent most of my time at BCA sawing and splitting wood..."
Good catch! I was referring to the millions being
diagnosed in schools accross the country. I was not clear. Sorry about that.
Well, did you have ADD, and did the wood splitting
settle you down while at BCA? How about post BCA?
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Eh, people have told me I probably have ADD, but I never bothered to get diagnosed. So I couldn't tell you if it helped that specifically, but it was definitely a pretty soothing activity. If I got a workie or was on a full time, I'd always want to maul (sp?). Sawing could be frustrating, but mauling just got the rage out. Good way to clear the mind. They even gave you that chainsaw helmet that was almost completely soundproof. You didn't have to listen to any of the little whiners around you bitching about their workie.
You were responding to my post by the way, I just forgot to log in. [ This Message was edited by: dniceo7 on 2005-10-29 15:15 ]
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at the time i was really struggling with my eating habits. the possiblity of gaining weight from the meds and the food really set me off. so, i never got reamed for turning anyone on. back then i was very awkward and to turn any of the boys on in those clothes...you had to be very curvy.
i saw what they did to this girl for having the misfortune of having large breasts, the tears rolling down her face because the staff though it was her fault that she made the boys horny.
i was completely fried from the medication and for over two years i woke up drooling on my pillow.
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Those wool pants everyone had to rock at Ascent--girls with thick asses looked so hot in those. But yeah, girls who didn't have the right figure looked awfully goofy in wranglers and wool pants.
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Everything made the boys horny at CEDU. Enter desert island syndrome.
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I know Depakote and Verapamil are also prescribed. Even fish oil.
Well I'm not a doctor either, but I was studying to be one.
Depakote is a seizure med, and Verapamil is used to treat cardiac arrythmia. What the FUCK does this have to do with bipolar disorder?
Oh, I guess that falls under the Snake Oil... oh sorry, FISH oil prescription.
:roll:
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On 2005-10-30 14:50:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:
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I know Depakote and Verapamil are also prescribed. Even fish oil.
Well I'm not a doctor either, but I was studying to be one.
Depakote is a seizure med, and Verapamil is used to treat cardiac arrythmia. What the FUCK does this have to do with bipolar disorder?
Oh, I guess that falls under the Snake Oil... oh sorry, FISH oil prescription.
:roll:
"
Quick google search will find numerous references to these 2 meds. Both are well documented for the treatment of bipolar disorder.
So it would seem they would have quite a bit to do with bipolar disorder......not snake (or fish) oil at all.
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Looks like Helena should stay where she belongs.
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No, actually the top researchers are finding great success with mega doses of fish oil in stabilizing mild to moderate mood disorders. This is very well documented. Depakote is an anti convulsant (my brother took it for epilepsy) but seems to have some success with bipolar II. Same with verapmil. It's all neurological so it isn't surprising that the drugs are cross referenced.
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On 2005-10-30 14:50:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:
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I know Depakote and Verapamil are also prescribed. Even fish oil.
Well I'm not a doctor either, but I was studying to be one.
Depakote is a seizure med, and Verapamil is used to treat cardiac arrythmia. What the FUCK does this have to do with bipolar disorder?
Oh, I guess that falls under the Snake Oil... oh sorry, FISH oil prescription.
:roll:
"
Good thing that first year of studying got you. I'd feel pretty bad for whatever patients you had.
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On 2005-10-30 16:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
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On 2005-10-30 14:50:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:
"
I know Depakote and Verapamil are also prescribed. Even fish oil.
Well I'm not a doctor either, but I was studying to be one.
Depakote is a seizure med, and Verapamil is used to treat cardiac arrythmia. What the FUCK does this have to do with bipolar disorder?
Oh, I guess that falls under the Snake Oil... oh sorry, FISH oil prescription.
:roll:
"
Quick google search will find numerous references to these 2 meds. Both are well documented for the treatment of bipolar disorder.
So it would seem they would have quite a bit to do with bipolar disorder......not snake (or fish) oil at all.
"
Yes, depakote is used as a mood stabilizer for bipolar disorder. It is one of the old standards which make up the "big three" in terms of mood stabilizers: depakote, lithium, and tegretol (or its newer version, trileptal.)
Both depakote and tegretol/trileptal are anti-convulscents, as anti-convulscents have been proven to be very effective in treating bipolar disorder. There are actually several other anti-convulscents out there which are also used to treat people with bipolar disorder, such as Lamictal.
And also, the people who were talking about fish oil are correct. That has been proven to have some effecacy in helping bipolar symptoms, if you can get past the fishy-burps that comes with taking them. (Some brands are better than others at not being "fishy", and keeping their stock fresh enough so that it doesn't spoil and get rank.)
My psychiatrist actually recommended fish oil to me, and suggested a particular brand of omega 3s to try to help curb the bipolar symptoms in conjunction with my medication. So for those who think that shrinks are all about drugging their patients and aren't into alternative therapies, that's not always the case. I tried the fish oil for a while, but I think I got a stinky or old batch, because I still burped up fish-stink. (Which was odd, because I got a very good brand.) I eventually had to stop, because I had GI problems with reflux, and fish oil certainly didn't help that. Also, one of the other medications I was on started to make my face an oil factory and I was breaking out, so the last thing I needed was to be taking a product that was made entirely of oil.
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I remember trying tegretol once. Every time I moved the room would spin violently. After three days of that I had to stop.
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Excuse me... did launch a personal attack against you Dinceo and Anon? I asked a simple question. Maybe if you didn't have your narrow mind tucked so far up your ass, you'd know this. ::fuckoff::
To those that gave me the updated information, I appreciate it.
As far as the Fish Oil and mood stabilization, I'd have to see the science on that before I believe it. [ This Message was edited by: Helena Handbasket on 2005-10-31 05:11 ]
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On 2005-10-31 05:08:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:
"Excuse me... did launch a personal attack against you Dinceo and Anon? I asked a simple question. Maybe if you didn't have your narrow mind tucked so far up your ass, you'd know this. ::fuckoff::
To those that gave me the updated information, I appreciate it.
As far as the Fish Oil and mood stabilization, I'd have to see the science on that before I believe it. [ This Message was edited by: Helena Handbasket on 2005-10-31 05:11 ]"
Excuse, but you didn't just "ask a simple question". Your post indicated that these drugs were not for bipolar disorder and was stated in such a way as to discredit their use in the treatment of BPD. For you to say you were simply asking a question is rather disingenuous.
The science is out there. Go do the research.
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On 2005-10-31 05:08:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:
"Excuse me... did launch a personal attack against you Dinceo and Anon? I asked a simple question. Maybe if you didn't have your narrow mind tucked so far up your ass, you'd know this. ::fuckoff::
To those that gave me the updated information, I appreciate it.
As far as the Fish Oil and mood stabilization, I'd have to see the science on that before I believe it. [ This Message was edited by: Helena Handbasket on 2005-10-31 05:11 ]"
Whoa whoa girl, easy. I wasn't trying to launch any personal attack. I guess the anon might've been trying that, but then that's why he/she's anonymous. I was just fuckin' with ya. Didn't think you'd take something you left behind so personally. Relaaaax.
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Excuse, but you didn't just "ask a simple question". Your post indicated that these drugs were not for bipolar disorder and was stated in such a way as to discredit their use in the treatment of BPD. For you to say you were simply asking a question is rather disingenuous.
The science is out there. Go do the research.
"
My apolgies for being in a bad mood. However, I was not incorrect by stating what those drugs are most commonly used for, and at the time I was studying neuropsych, those therapies were considered "experimental" (I got the book right here) so we did not study them. Ok?
I probably shouldn't have had a knee-jerk reaction like that - but I've seen a lot of alternative uses of meds and other stuff that was either dangerous or just didn't work or caused worse problems. That's all.
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It's all good.
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http://www.psycheducation.org/depressio ... lizers.htm (http://www.psycheducation.org/depression/meds/moodstabilizers.htm)
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Anon, one question I just have to ask. During all that time when you were eating rancid, encapsulated, extracted fish oil, did it ever occure to you to just eat more fish, maybe take up fishing as a hobby?
Just wondering. I keep reading about drug therapies that point to proof of diatary imbalance as an underlying cause of mental problems. We all know what happens to a kid on too much sugar or a diabetic in insuline shock. And I hear accute starvation has the same sort of mind numbing effect. I wonder if most of it, including many people who do well on the drugs, might be addressed more effectively and more safely w/ just a good old fashioned, balanced diet.
Look into old traditions. They'll tell you a lot. In the NE, there's a spring greens tradition. Each spring when the dandilions and other early greens come up, it's tradition to take a day off to harvest them, eat them raw, cook them, make tea and just generally revel in the early greens.
Makes perfect sense, doesn't it?
I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard was not what I meant.
---Richard Nixon
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On 2005-10-31 19:35:00, Antigen wrote:
Anon, one question I just have to ask. During all that time when you were eating rancid, encapsulated, extracted fish oil, did it ever occure to you to just eat more fish, maybe take up fishing as a hobby?
Well, I guess you could make the same argument for multivitamins. Why do people take them, when they should just eat healthier?
Apparently, the concentration of omega 3s present in the fish oil capsules is greater than you would get if you just had fish for dinner. I believe it is extracted and refined from salmon eggs. So I guess if you are wealthy enough to eat caviar every day, go for it.
I also believe that even people who eat fish regularly may still sometimes take fish oil capsules. Fish oil, like any other vitamin, is a supplement, not a replacement.
Doesn't matter for me either way. I don't take the stuff, since it didn't agree with me.
But if I could afford to eat sushi every day and have a more japanese diet, I'd love to. Although I would probably miss the beef. Actually, I probably wouldn't be able to stomach fish every single day. I can't eat the same of anything every single day, although I did come close with hawaiian pizza one time.
_________________
[ This Message was edited by: sorry... try another castle on 2006-01-14 19:20 ]
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This is nothing new.
The American Psychiatric Association has been recommending fish oil, or equivalent, such as
flax seed oil, etc. for about 10 years.
For some it helps.
The research seems to be more positive than
reality. One just doesn't hear those with
a mental health diagnosis stating that "it
was the fish oil" that made a difference in
their recovery.
I wish it was a dramatic remedy.
Regarding a healthy diet. That is always recommended. There are enough mental people
eating perfect diets that one would assume
dramatic results. Again, sadly, no such
claims can be reproduced that diet alone will
cure or stabilize a mental illness.
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That is an assumption that all fish oil
pills are made from a rancid production
value.
I don't think so ...
Yes, it is better to get any supplement
from its original source, but we also
need to be practical and any focus
on certain foods or additives must
be affordable.
Remember that the harmless Tryptophan
was produced unsafely by one Japanese
company and the FDA had a knee jerk
reaction and has permanently banned its
sale in the US. It is available elsewhere
around the world.
If the fish oil process was rancid, it
would have been revealed by now ...
Plus all those people affected by rancid
fish oil would be bitching pretty loudly.
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Fuck your fish oil and your flax seed and your god damn verapamil. I have the cure for your bi polar right here... ::unhappy::
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On 2005-11-01 03:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
Regarding a healthy diet. That is always recommended. There are enough mental people
eating perfect diets that one would assume
dramatic results. Again, sadly, no such
claims can be reproduced that diet alone will
cure or stabilize a mental illness.
No, I'm not talking about insane amounts of any particular nutrient or combo of them to treat an actual, organic problem. I'm talking about long term poor nutrition as an underlying cause of mental and emotional problems.
Why do healthy people take vitamin pills? I don't get it. I know someone who has to take them due to gut problems, malabsorption. But I think, for people w/ a normal, healthy physiology, it's far and away better to get your vitamins and minerals from natural foods. It's also cheaper.
BTW, you'll love this. If your diet is lacking in omega3 fatty acids, do you know what is the #1, best source of those? Cannabis seed oil. Hands down, there's no better source of available omega 3 fatty acids. Also, if we were allowed to grow the stuff in this country, it would be cheaper than any other source and require far less pesticides and chemical soil amendments. Traditionally, going back to the days before we outlawed the stuff, hemp was used effectively as a rotation crop for corn in what is now coal country.
Education is a better safeguard of liberty than a standing army.
--Edward Everett
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Alright...
This cure works too. ::unhappy::
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Look people, there is no such thing as a chemical imbalance. I know that many of you will disagree with this, but face it, some people are just fucking nuts. Whatever happened to just being weird? Huh? I don't take meds, and I don't think that other people should either.
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well i'm sure glad that you're not my doctor!
meds rule!
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On 2005-11-01 13:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Look people, there is no such thing as a chemical imbalance. I know that many of you will disagree with this, but face it, some people are just fucking nuts. Whatever happened to just being weird? Huh? I don't take meds, and I don't think that other people should either.
"
That's the most foolish thing I have ever heard.
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On 2005-11-01 13:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Look people, there is no such thing as a chemical imbalance. I know that many of you will disagree with this, but face it, some people are just fucking nuts. Whatever happened to just being weird? Huh? I don't take meds, and I don't think that other people should either.
"
Would you deny a diabetic their medication then? How about an epileptic? Are you saying that an entire subdivision of science is a hoax? Neurological pharmacology and psychology are just a couple collections of old wives tales?
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On 2005-11-01 13:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Look people, there is no such thing as a chemical imbalance. I know that many of you will disagree with this, but face it, some people are just fucking nuts. Whatever happened to just being weird? Huh? I don't take meds, and I don't think that other people should either.
"
Thus spoketh Tom Cruise. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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No, what I'm saying is that people need to stop depending on meds and figure shit out for themselves. Denying a diabetic medication is bad, but denying a depressed person their Prozac and suggesting they go outside for a jog isn't. People need to get over shit and deal with things. Tom Cruise is a fucking tool by the way.
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On 2005-11-01 13:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-11-01 13:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Look people, there is no such thing as a chemical imbalance. I know that many of you will disagree with this, but face it, some people are just fucking nuts. Whatever happened to just being weird? Huh? I don't take meds, and I don't think that other people should either.
"
That's the most foolish thing I have ever heard. "
I think it's foolish to take medication, so there!
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On 2005-11-01 14:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
Tom Cruise is a fucking tool by the way. "
Look people, there is no such thing as a chemical imbalance
You're the one who pretty much quoted him word for word. Tool. :rofl:
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fuck you ass hole
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That's Sir Asshole to you! :lol:
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Hey, why dontcha go see if you can get a spot on the Today show with Matt? Maybe you and Tom can get a tagteam kinda thing going?
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ha ha ha, what did you read that off some shitty coffee mug? "That's Mrs. Bitch to you!" You're a real faggot, no wonder you went to CEDU!
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go jack off in your mom's eye, you know she likes it that way.
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didn't go to CEDU. nice try though. :lol:
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Then get the FUCK out!
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I'm having so much fun though. Sorry, can't leave. :wave:
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Jesus Christ you're a fag.
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How's that working out for you by the way? Liked to get ass fucked do 'ya? By horses you say?
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and you're easy. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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[ This Message was edited by: dniceo7 on 2005-11-01 20:00 ]
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Dniceo, my understanding of the state of the science is that they've been extremely lax about seperating cause from effect. Certainly, adjusting those chemical levels can help some people be more comfortable and productive. But I don't think the psyche profession, as a whole, is too keen on looking to non medical adjustments that might be more effective and far safer.
There are exceptions, of course. But, generally, it's just a whole lot easier to write a script than to deal w/ the messy business of figuring out what's causing the trouble to begin with. And there's a conflict of interests, too. Schoolpeople have been implimenting the state of the art in psych methods on kids. According to the schoolpeople, they've created (at great personal expense and untold sacrifice) a students' utopia. Why, any kid who's not thrilled to be a part of it must be disordered, right? They're not going to admit it when their own profession is a significant contributing factor to the kids' problems. Unfortunately, far too many shrinks suffer from Staff Personality Disorder and so they're not capable of objective reasoning.
To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; to leave the world a little better; whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is the meaning of success.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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[ This Message was edited by: dniceo7 on 2005-11-01 20:00 ]
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I do worry a lot about kids who's parents are just entirely too credulous about these things. One of my own kids is just extremely sensitive to sugar. What many people would view as a reasonable amount of candy and pop sends her into about a 20 minute manic spree followed by an equally horrible crash.
I'm pretty confident that if we analyzed her blood late on Halloween night and then again in the morning, we'd surely find chemical imbalances that perfectly explained her mood swings.
But I can well imagine that some professionals might have had her drugged to the gills already w/o even considering a simple diet change.
It was really easy to address once we figured out what was going on. We just started talking to her about it, encouraging her to be as sensible as a 9yo can be. And, when she over does it, to not be so upset by the crash, to know that it'll pass very shortly.
...the people have a right to keep and bear arms.
-- Patrick Henry and George Mason Debates
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This is must read. Straight from the horses mouth on the topic of brain chemistry. Take the drugs if you like, but understand what they are and what they are doing. They do not 'cure' ANYthing.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 230#113173 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3515&forum=9&start=230#113173)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 230#113212 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3515&forum=9&start=230#113212)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =170#78518 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3515&forum=9&start=170#78518)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=40#26086 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3515&forum=9&start=40#26086)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=40#26121 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3515&forum=9&start=40#26121)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=10#26145 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3572&forum=9&start=10#26145)
How THEORIES become REALITY
Zoloft commercial claims:
1) No one knows what causes depression. TRUE
2) One THEORY is that there?s a chemical imbalance in the brain. TRUE.
But, Theory does not = proof.
3) Zoloft works to correct this imbalance. FALSE. Implying a ?cure?? For a ?theory??
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***Chemical imbalances are real, and they are correlated with anger and depression.
My understanding is that it's the chicken and egg delima.
They don't know if the anger/depression causes the 'imbalance', or the reverse.
What they do know is that when a person grieves (cries), chemicals are released via the tears and one can feel a sense of relief and wellness. You won't hear much in the news about that, but no one, as of yet, can reap large bucks from our tears. Nature rarely makes mistakes- we are incredible healing organisms.
And just as we can release useless chemicals, we have the ability to create useful ones.... ever hear of runner's high? Ever have a sense of total well being after a good movie or song?
This quote rarely resonates with those who prefer drugs, but fwiw:
The founder of osteopathy, Andrew Taylor Still, noted that human beings contain virtually all the healing substances they need. That includes antibiotics, pain killers, tranquilizers, euphorics, anti-inflammatories, etc. of every variety. Therefore, what we primarily need is education toward the maximization of our self-healing capacities.
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I knew it was only a matter of time before Deborah chimed in on this discussion.
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How about you put your prejudice toward me aside for a moment and comment on the discussion. Do you think the Prof of Psych at Harvard is lying when he states publicly that 'chemical imbalance' hasn't been proven, and that placebo works for 75-85 people out of 100?
Steven Sharfstein is president of the American Psychiatric Association and Dr. Joseph Glenmullen is a professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, and author of the book "The Antidepressant Solution."
Dr. GLENMULLEN: But--but patients should be told. They should be told when they start these drugs. Psychiatric drugs can mask the real problems. Psychiatric drugs are being overprescribed. He's right when he actually says that there are no proven biochemical imbalances. [Damn, straight from the Harvard shrink. I guess that proves that the the 'anti propoganda' is not generated by scientology.] Everyone's shocked by that, but it's true, and we don't want to lose sight of the very real issues that he's raised.
COURIC: Well, let me talk to Dr. Sharfstein about that. What about--he said there's no such thing as a chemical imbalance. Tell us your reaction to that.
Dr. SHARFSTEIN: Well, that's total nonsense. It belies the last 20 years of incredible breakthroughs in neuroscience and our understanding of how the brain works, and the fact that the medications that we use are very helpful--often very helpful. [Not the point buddy. Where's the beef? Serve up the research that proves biochemical imbalance. And then prove the research is unbiased and conducted with the utmost integrity.] I also take the middle ground. Obviously, often these medications are overprescribed. But also, I think they're underprescribed because there are many people out there who have not come forward for treatment who could benefit from the medication.
COURIC: I just have to, Dr. Glenmullen, ask you, if you believe--if you agree with him there's no such thing as a chemical...
Dr. GLENMULLEN: Right.
COURIC: ...brain imbalance...
Dr. GLENMULLEN: Right.
COURIC: ...then why are you prescribing antidepressants?
Dr. GLENMULLEN: Well, they clearly help. I've seen them help patients. There are studies that show they help, but...
COURIC: Well, obviously, are they helping with brain chemistry?
Dr. GLENMULLEN: Well, we don't know that. It's never been proven. [How many times must the man say it. I appreciate his honesty.] Do you know that the FDAs in other countries have actually banned pharmaceutical companies and doctors from making that claim because it's actually never been proven. So it's misleading to tell a patient, `You have an biochemical imbalance. This drug is going to correct that imbalance.' It's in TV ads, it's in magazine ads. It's said all the time in doctor's offices. That's why people--millions of people are shocked by what Tom Cruise said, but that is actually true.
Dr. SHARFSTEIN: I disagree. [Then serve up the proof Dr. Sharfstein.] And this is the kind of scientific debate that we are having within the field of psychiatry that's constructive. That's very different than Mr. Cruise's assertions, which I think are destructive.
COURIC: What about the whole notion of vitamins and exercise? Does he have a point that there are alternatives to medication?
Dr. GLENMULLEN: Absolutely. There is an excellent study comparing, for example, the antidepressant Zoloft to exercise for mild to moderate depression. Same kind of studies that are used to study the drugs for approval for FDA, and exercise was as good as Zoloft head-to-head in a study. Now, if you're are severely depressed, you may not have the energy to exercise. But once you're feeling a little bit better, maybe on an antidepressant, exercise can be one of the best ways to help you wean off an antidepressant.
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COURIC: But also therapy is so important, too. And when Tom Cruise says these medications sometimes mask the cause, too often doctors these days are doling out antidepressants or some things like Ritalin and Adderall and other drugs without the necessary counseling to kind of work with kids on issues that can't be cured with a pill, right?
Dr. GLENMULLEN: Absolutely. And you know, people get very passionate about this. You know, if you took a hundred people who went on an antidepressant and felt better, the science shows that 75 to 85 of them would have had the same thing happen on a sugar bill--if they were given a sugar pill...[Damn, that's significant!! How bout they give the teens who are dx'd with depression via Teen Screen the sugar pill. They are so suggestable, it might work for 100% of them.]
COURIC: A placebo.
Dr. GLENMULLEN: ...and they didn't know it was a placebo. The placebo effect is very powerful. It's very persuasive. People really feel, `Wow, this really helped me.' So, again, we need to just educate people so they can make truly informed choices. [Now THAT sounds like the middle ground. Don't lie to people. Inform them about all potential adverse affects, advise them of alternatives. Try the placebo. If it doesn't work, then present the option of drugs. Perhaps the APA should demand this of all shrinkydinks, and those found in violation loose their license.]
COURIC: And really have a more balanced view of this, but not necessarily throw the baby out with the bath water.
Dr. GLENMULLEN: No, no. No. Absolutely. Again, a moderate position. They help many, many people, but they also are over-prescribed. They have side effects that people aren't often told about. They have dangers that people aren't often told about. And there are, as you said, alternatives.
COURIC: When you say dangers, real quickly, what do you mean?
Dr. GLENMULLEN: Well, for example, with antidepressants, we now have a warning that they can make people suicidal. People gain 20, 30, 40 pounds of weight. [Go on. Don't stop there.]
COURIC: And very quickly...
Dr. GLENMULLEN: People have severe withdrawal. Serious side effects. [Death 'is' a pretty serious side effect.]
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To be clear, I never said I had prejudice against you. You're interpreting what I said as prejudice. I was simply making an observation that I had a feeling you would show up.
I also never said anything about agreeing or disagreeing with your argument. Again, your interpretation.
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[ This Message was edited by: sorry... try another castle on 2006-01-14 19:20 ]
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Mental Illness has been around for thousands of years.
The people who knock meds and are angry, or opinionated, at how an individual chooses to get help make it sound like Big Pharma invented mental illness.
Well, they didn't.
As far as malabsorption, mental illness was around when all foods where eaten fresh, or preserved only with salt.
It was around when human grazed ...
To think that for thousands of years no one in the human race eats right is putting idealism ahead of realism and practicality.
There are plenty of clinics and programs, as well as self help books on mental illness that supposively correct eating habits for optimum use by the body, but the numbers are still the same for those afflicted by mental illness.
Is it really that much of a bummer that Big Pharma came out with medications that allowed to government to shut down all those state psychiatric hospitals?
Would it be better to re-open them, put the mentally ill back in the hospital, take away their medications and force them to live symptomatic for the rest of their days ...
History doesn't lie, nor is it idealistic.
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" The founder of osteopathy, Andrew Taylor Still, noted that human beings contain virtually all the healing substances they need. That includes antibiotics, pain killers, tranquilizers, euphorics, anti-inflammatories, etc. of every variety. Therefore, what we primarily need is education toward the maximization of our self-healing capacities."
What is this, because Andrew Taylor had a theory that he is right?
Who is able to bring out all these inbedded chemicals in our bodies, you Deborah?
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On 2005-11-01 20:26:00, sorry... try another castle wrote:
"I knew it was only a matter of time before Deborah chimed in on this discussion.
"
Deborah is only trained, or gullible, to join the complainers that are so self righteous that they do not respect anyone's personal choices unless they agree with theirs.
It is a juvenile approach to life ...
Feeling self-important may help her own feeling of self-worth but it doesn?t help those
with mental illness.
Wasn't there a short lived thread here asking if Deborah ever helped anyone?
I don't recall any postings in support of Deborah's "help?...
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Osteopathy and chiropractic - a little history....
THE MODERN AMERICAN OCCULT CONNECTION
In the United States, as in England, there were certain families who passed their bone-setting skills down as family trade secrets. The most famous bone-setting families were the Reece family (in west. Penn., and east. Ohio), the Sweet family (in Rhode Is., Mass., Conn., & NY), and the Tieszen and Orton families in South Dakota. The Sweets became orthopedists, the Tieszen and Orton families went into Chiropractic. The Irish Quain family were famous anatomists, surgeons, and physicians.
Osteopathy and chiropractic stemmed from the same occult philosophical roots, but went in different directions. Both shared the idea that the body has the ability to maintain good health if allowed to do so, and both emphasized the manipulation of bones and joints. Both were started about the same time period in America in about the same geographic area, by men who had Scottish ancestry.
A.T. Still (the founder of osteopathy) and D.D. Palmer both studied magic and metaphysics. Both attended many of the same spiritist meetings, for instance both attended the spiritualist meetings at Clinton, Iowa on a number of occasions. (Gibbons, 1980, p. 13)
The osteopath?s goal was to move bones to improve circulation. The chiropractor?s primary goal was to move bones to reduce pressure or the irritation of nerves, with the further goal of positively helping organs and tissue. A.T. Still & other osteopaths claimed Daniel D. Palmer visited Still at his house, but Palmer?s descendants say it?s not true.
Early on Still?s two best assistants were two doctors from Scotland, William Smith & James Littlejohn. Daniel David Palmer (1845-1913), founder of chiropractic, was a Freemason & an occultist. His original practice was to heal people with what he called "magnetic healing" which was a combination of laying on of hands, hypnotism and white magic. Of course it was not called white magic, it was called "magnetic healing" by Palmer.
Part of the magnetism was his own magnetic (hypnotic) personality. Palmer also knew phrenology and had a keen sense of touch concerning a person?s head. D.D. Palmer taught phrenology. D.D. Palmer was a mixture of good and bad traits. He was an excellent scholar and had good organizational skills for what he learned. One of his difficult traits was his megalomania. In 1905, at a coroner?s inquiry, Palmer refused to take an oath to swear the truth "so help me God", because he said that "I don?t want any help from God." It must have been hard on his pride, when his own son B.J. Palmer, who had been cruelly raised by cruel step-mothers, turned Judas and stole from his father both the honor & money that was due his father.
His son Bartlett Joshua Palmer (1882-1961) worked in a circus as an assistant to professional circus hypnotists known as Professor Hunt, and later Professor Herbert L. Flint. Later, with mysterious connections to the right people, B.J. Palmer, got the money and the political clout to get started in building a school for chiropractic. His powerful Davenport radio station, WOC, said to be the second largest in the U.S., had Ronald Reagan (our future president) as one of its sports announcers.
B.J. Palmer was connected to the occult world. He liked to encourage the idea that he was a Christ figure. New Ager Napoleon Hill, author of Think and Grow Rich (1937) considered Palmer his mentor. B.J. had prominent Masons and other elite as his personal guests. Elbert Hubbard, a friend of B.J.?s, was the person who persuaded John D. Rockefeller?s personal physician, to get Rockefeller to use chiropractic care. Later in 1963, Nelson Rockefeller would be the important person to get chiropractic accepted as legal in NY, and then appointed chiropractor Albert Cera to his Medical Advisory Committee.
Illuminati kingpin California Gov. Edmund Brown appointed 12 chiropractors to regional committees associated with the California Board of Medical Assurance. Hollywood got into the promotion of chiropractic, with the 1990 film Jacob?s Ladder which was a film exposing the U.S. military?s use of BZ (a derivative of LSD) in Vietnam to experimentally try to create aggression via drugs in American soldiers.
It appears that chiropractic occult ties have been beneficial in its fight for acceptance. The occult world has worked hard to keep chiropractic within its domain. This is why you will find Christians exposing the occult connections to chiropractic such as T.M. Clement?s book A Warning to Christians About the Origins of Chiropractic. (Moses Lake:WA, date of printing not known).
As the reader will discover other sciences involving the relationship of the mind, brain, the body and personality have also been kept in the domain of the secret societies. Like Palmer, Dr. Andrew Taylor Still, who founded osteopathy, was interested in phrenology, hypnotism, spiritism, magic. The reference book 10,000 Famous Freemasons (Vol. 4) outlines his Masonic career in Freemasonry. His writings include such Masonic phrases as "Great architect of the Universe." His grandfather had been Scotch-Irish. His father was a Methodist Episcopal minister, who was an abolitionist who fought with John Brown and the free-state forces in Kansas.
Andrew Taylor Still ran for the legislature of Kansas Territory as a free-state candidate and won in the Oct. 1857 elections. Later, he married Mary Elvira Turner, who was from the "burned-over" district in New York. She had been exposed to abolitionist ideas, phrenology, and hypnotism (called mesmerism) which were all popular in the area she grew. Her area of NY was where Spiritism began in 1848. Horace Greeley of the NY Tribune then made these seances with spirits famous. In 1867, after his children died, Andrew Taylor Still embraced spiritistism. Still?s beliefs in spiritism included ideas from Freemason Swendenborg?s writings. (For details of Andrew Taylor Still?s life refer to the book Trowbridge, Carol. Andrew Taylor Still. Kirksville, MO: The Thomas Jefferson Press, 1990.)
A.T. Still built osteopathy on the foundation of teachings of men such as phrenologist/hypnotists such as Joseph Rodes Buchanan. Buchanan used hypnosis and manipulation of the head to radiate the cerebral fluid from the brain to the body, which was coming close to the basics of cranial osteopathy. How did A.T. Still come up with these new ideas? A.T. Still was able to study and conduct experiments on bodies by raiding Indian graves for bodies, which he says in his "Circumstances and Personal Experiences" he did thousands of experiments on.
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Maybe the way to look at it is to be grateful there are so many options to treat different conditions, whether through diet and exercise, alternative meds, or regular meds. I know I'm always happy to have a glass of wine to ease stress, but the last thing I want to do when I'm depressed is drink. There is a place for everything. And the truth is, there is a lot of overdiagnosing and overprescribing (especially with ADD)and not enough sustained effort in choosing life style changes over pharmaceuticals. Sometimes, the best approach is combined. I think the important thing is for people to be very aware and proactive on their own behalf and not just blindly follow the presecription pad.
A little bit of craziness is not a bad thing. Who wants to live in a vanilla world? But I've seen meds work well for people who were really suffering, and treatment saved their lives and their family's. It's nice to have options.
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Who wrote that piece? A christian MD who's still pissed that insurance now pays for chiropractic and DOs? Many christians utilize homeopathy/ chiropractic/ osteopathic care. Which christian cult is putting out the warning mentioned?
The beauty is that we do have options.
My mother's heart doctor wanted to do an angiogram and possibly stints for a minor blockage in her heart. Why? Because that's ALL he has been trained to do. And the sooner the better to avoid liability.
Her DO agreed with me- it wasn't necessary- and approved the supplements I had researched, adding one. He and the heart specialist have been monitoring her on a regular basis. She has reversed that blockage with supplements and diet.
She could've been one of the statistics- many who die during the angiogram.
It's strictly choice. For me and my family... I'm going to take the least invasive and destructive path to well-being.
For those bitching... no need for such defensiveness. You have, and will always have the choice of drugs.
The question still remains though... why you are so staunchly opposed to information about alternatives to mainstream treatment?
I noticed that not one of you replied to the Professors comment re: brain chemicals. Now that you know the truth, will you continue to perpetuate the lie?
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The Oath of Hippocrates
I SWEAR by Apollo the physician and AEsculapius, and Hygiea, and Panacea, and all the gods and goddesses, that, according to my ability and judgment, I will keep this Oath and this stipulation-- to reckon him who taught me this Art equally dear to me as my parents, to share my substance with him, and relieve his necessities if required; to look upon his offspring in the same footing as my own brothers, and to teach them this art, if they shall wish to learn it, without fee or stipulation; and that by precept, lecture, and every other mode of instruction, I will impart a knowledge of the Art to my own sons, and those of my teachers, and to disciples bound by a stipulation and oath according to the law of medicine, but to none others. I will follow that system of regimen which, according to my ability and judgment, I consider for the benefit of my patients, and abstain from whatever is deleterious and mischievous. I will give no deadly medicine to any one if asked, nor suggest any such counsel; and in like manner I will not give to a woman a pessary to produce abortion. With purity and with holiness I will pass my life and practice my Art. I will not cut persons laboring under the stone, but will leave this to be done by men who are practitioners of this work. Into whatever houses I enter, I will go into them for the benefit of the sick, and will abstain from every voluntary act of mischief and corruption; and, further, from the seduction of females or males, of freemen and slaves. Whatever, in connection with my professional service, or not in connection with it, I see or hear, in the life of men, which ought not to be spoken of abroad, I will not divulge, as reckoning that all such should be kept secret. While I continue to keep this Oath unviolated, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and the practice of the art, respected by all men, in all times. But should I trespass and violate this Oath, may the reverse be my lot.
The Law of Hippocrates
1. Medicine is of all the arts the most noble; but, owing to the ignorance of those who practice it, and of those who, inconsiderately, form a judgment of them, it is at present far behind all the other arts. Their mistake appears to me to arise principally from this, that in the cities there is no punishment connected with the practice of medicine (and with it alone) except disgrace, and that does not hurt those who are familiar with it. Such persons are the figures which are introduced in tragedies, for as they have the shape, and dress, and personal appearance of an actor, but are not actors, so also physicians are many in title but very few in reality.
2. Whoever is to acquire a competent knowledge of medicine, ought to be possessed of the following advantages: a natural disposition; instruction; a favorable position for the study; early tuition; love of labor; leisure. First of all, a natural talent is required; for, when Nature leads the way to what is most excellent, instruction in the art takes place, which the student must try to appropriate to himself by reflection, becoming an early pupil in a place well adapted for instruction. He must also bring to the task a love of labor and perseverance, so that the instruction taking root may bring forth proper and abundant fruits.
3. Instruction in medicine is like the culture of the productions of the earth. For our natural disposition, is, as it were, the soil; the tenets of our teacher are, as it were, the seed; instruction in youth is like the planting of the seed in the ground at the proper season; the place where the instruction is communicated is like the food imparted to vegetables by the atmosphere; diligent study is like the cultivation of the fields; and it is time which imparts strength to all things and brings them to maturity.
4. Having brought all these requisites to the study of medicine, and having acquired a true knowledge of it, we shall thus, in traveling through the cities, be esteemed physicians not only in name but in reality. But inexperience is a bad treasure, and a bad fund to those who possess it, whether in opinion or reality, being devoid of self-reliance and contentedness, and the nurse both of timidity and audacity. For timidity betrays a want of powers, and audacity a lack of skill. They are, indeed, two things, knowledge and opinion, of which the one makes its possessor really to know, the other to be ignorant.
5. Those things which are sacred, are to be imparted only to sacred persons; and it is not lawful to impart them to the profane until they have been initiated into the mysteries of the science.
Sorry, just had to throw that in there.
I do think, though, that the psyches are lagging behind their peers in the physical medicine side of the profession.
In the medical field, as I've dealt with them recenlty, there are one or two old farts on the clinical staff who freak the fuck out at any mention of dietary interventions or herbal supliments. I just don't talk to them anymore.
I talk to the old guy on the team, the one educted in India, the prolific research publisher who's primary interest and area of accomplishment has been in testing the latest, greatest, cutting edge drugs used in his field. He's the one who, reliably, will go down the drugs list at clinic and recomend dropping or reducing as many of them as is prudent. He's the one who will take a few minutes to figure out that, while treating elevated phosphate w/ drugs, it's a good idea to limit phosphate in the diet (dairy, primarily) and to try and address the patient's strong craving w/ alternative sources for other elements contained in dairy that may be causing those cravings.
The shrinks who I've met in that same institution hold to an entirely different philosophy. They still seem to think, like many medical docturs used to, that every deviation from what the latest version of their text books call 'normal' should be agressively treated w/ the latest drugs. And they get most offended, and frankly a little intimidating, if one tries to decline their assistance.
I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat
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On 2005-11-02 05:46:00, shanlea wrote:
"Maybe the way to look at it is to be grateful there are so many options to treat different conditions, whether through diet and exercise, alternative meds, or regular meds. I know I'm always happy to have a glass of wine to ease stress, but the last thing I want to do when I'm depressed is drink. There is a place for everything. And the truth is, there is a lot of overdiagnosing and overprescribing (especially with ADD)and not enough sustained effort in choosing life style changes over pharmaceuticals. Sometimes, the best approach is combined. I think the important thing is for people to be very aware and proactive on their own behalf and not just blindly follow the presecription pad.
A little bit of craziness is not a bad thing. Who wants to live in a vanilla world? But I've seen meds work well for people who were really suffering, and treatment saved their lives and their family's. It's nice to have options."
This is pretty close to my sentiments as well. I am fortunate that I have a psychiatrist who has always prescribed and recomended multiple options for my symptoms, from fish oil to supplement my condition, to a Go-lite to help with my sleeping disorder. When he realized that my sleeping problems were not improving with my medication regimen, he recommended that I get a sleep study done for sleep apnea, which I do indeed have. (I found out last week.) In fact, he refused to even consider changing ANY of my medications further until I had that study done, because he felt that sleep hygeine was so important to depression. He has also recommended exercise and a good diet, as well as the obvious, i.e. therapy, both individual and group, especially something like Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, which, in my opinion, has proven to be very effective in combating depression.
I feel that there are a lot of people out there with a rather myopic view of the psychiatric industry, which is a common trap people fall into when they cast generalizations. Generalizations refuse to account for the individual, i.e. the thousands of individuals who suffer from some sort of mental illness and have found some sort of solace with a form of therapy, whether it be medication, exercise, diet, CBT, or a combination. Generalizations do not account for those stories.
Maybe it's also true that people have done well on placebos, but I guess I'm part of that 25% that do not. There have been several times where I have gotten a "bad batch" of my anti-depressants (back when I was on them) and my symtoms started to come back in full force. I honestly didn't know what was going on, until my psychiatrist at the time said that he had noticed that several people had complained about getting a bad batch of that drug every so often, where it was at 80% effectiveness instead of 100%.
Anyway, my point is, that any good psychiatrist will take into account multiple forms of therapy, and there are good doctors out there who do that.
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[ This Message was edited by: sorry... try another castle on 2006-01-14 19:19 ]
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***To be clear, I never said I had prejudice against you. You're interpreting what I said as prejudice. I was simply making an observation that I had a feeling you would show up.
To be clear, then you should state your position. Otherwise, given your position on the issue, one is left to their INTERPRETATION.
Is there a problem with me 'chiming' in?
Or did you take up bandwidth to announce your psychic abilities? Or perhaps to just vent about not dominating the discussion?
I wouldn't want to assume......
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No need to be testy. It was simply an observation. I'm allowed to make mine just as you are allowed to make yours. I am getting the impression that there might be some defensiveness on this issue. Maybe I should have chosen a more neutral word than "chimed", like "joined", but then again, I've never been one to walk on eggshells in the offchance that someone might misinterpret my statement.
It was honestly meant as a neutral comment. Were it intended to be negative or positive, I would have put the appropriate emoticon after it. Such as :wave: .
Haven't you ever heard someone say "I had a feeling you'd show up." before?
As for whether or not I was upset because I wasn't "dominating the conversation", that is yet another assumption of my character, and a grossly inaccurate one. I have no desire to do so. I prefer discussion.
On my side, I have not made any assumptions or accusations of your character, so I am sorry that you assumed my statement about your arrival was one, because it was not intended as such. Someone did indeed quote my comment and decide to do so, but that was not my comment, that was theirs.
Anyway, I would like to chalk this up to a miscommunication and move on, if that is allright with you.
_________________
[ This Message was edited by: sorry... try another castle on 2006-01-14 19:19 ]
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Agreed.
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On 2005-11-02 11:22:00, Deborah wrote:
Or did you take up bandwidth to announce your psychic abilities? Or perhaps to just vent about not dominating the discussion?
I wouldn't want to assume......
"
50 ways to discredit someone?
Smashmouth should not be practiced here,
out of etiquette and courtesy.
Discrediting the other party just gets
the topic off track ...
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No shit. The smashmouthing does get out of control!
"Deborah is only trained, or gullible, to join the complainers that are so self righteous that they do not respect anyone's personal choices unless they agree with theirs.
It is a juvenile approach to life ...
Feeling self-important may help her own feeling of self-worth but it doesn?t help those
with mental illness.
Wasn't there a short lived thread here asking if Deborah ever helped anyone?
I don't recall any postings in support of Deborah's "help?."
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It would be great to see all people respect
their choices of health care and lifestyle.
Instead we have people giving shit to
other people who are sick, from there is
no illness to essentially it is your fault,
to eventually your treatment choice is stupid
and wrong.
I think it would be better and healthier to
simply say ...
Ok, I understand you are doing xxx for
treating your condition of yyy. If you
are ever interested in trying another way
I have good info on zzz.
Then leave it at that!
Will we ever see it here?
In the general public?
I don't hold out any hope for people accepting
others choices, and staying out of the opinion
type of advocacy for their belief system.
What I do find funny, here, is that we are
pissed at what happened to us as kids, and
just wanted to be left alone and do our
own things.
Then we grow up, and act like assholes :flame:
Oh, :eek:
Let's just :lol:
Because no matter what the theory we will all
end up as fertilizer :em:
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I'd really like to speak with someone who endured bipolar during their stay at CEDU. It's something I've come to realize I have been battling since my days at Boulder Creek, and just like other aspects of the CEDU experience, I think it might help to talk about it with someone who knows where I'm coming from. So shoot me a PM if you've got a little time! Much appreciated.
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I wasn't "Bi-Polar" but I was taking medication deemed for people who were. All I can say about that is that it didn't do me much good. I know some of my family is "Bi-Polar" and it's a probelm for them. Life for them is just one long ass struggle.
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Why the quotation marks?
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CEDU would not be a good place for bipolar. I would think it would only exacerbate the issue.
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The thing I've learned about bipolar is that nowhere is a good place for it. I could be in paradise, but when that feeling of depression hits, nothing can shake it. And I don't know where the transition actually hits, but next thing I know I'm just optimistic about everything. No matter where I am. It's a struggle...every feeling of optimism I question, and it's very disheartening knowing that the fall is right around the corner...
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Yeah. There is no good place to be depressed. What treatments have you tried and did any work? I'm really interested in effective treatment for bipolar that doesn't make you blah.
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Well, I don't really believe in meds. And I know that plenty of people will say "but what about diabetes? You'll deny a diabetic his insulin?". Well I don't really care about any disorder other than bipolar, cuz well that's what I have. And I just haven't bothered with meds. Why? I guess it's because I was first exposed to meds at BCA. I remember seeing a kid struggling to make it from his bed to the shower on my second day there. I said, "what's wrong man?" He said, "last week they had me on three meds. now I'm on 4. I feel like a fucking zombie." He listed them, told me what they were for, and from then on the thought of meds just horrified me.
I just do my thing man, that's my treatment. Someone said it earlier, and I agree, keeping a close circle of friends that I trust around me is key. As long as they can keep my smiling, well that's a start right? And I keep focused on something, usually my grades, or some new sport or something like that. Just picked up surfing a few months ago.
When the depression hits nothing works better than clearing my mind. Like I said, surfing, or smoking a lot of weed helps too.
I don't know, they say that my success means I'm not maladaptive, so I couldn't truly have a disorder. But truthfully, I've never found anything that works as a treatment. I can make the pain go away, but that's what bipolar is to me. I always know it's going to come back. No matter how happy I become, I know it's waiting for me around the corner.
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Eventually, when the right medication
combination is achieved there should
be no side effects and no cognitive
impairments.
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I'm bipolar, and I was at RMA. This was back when they didn't medicate students. In fact, they didn't really medicate for anything, even if you were sick, you had to get really sick before you got to a doctor.
I know that most of the time I felt suicidal, but I never talked about it, and I also felt like killing or maiming a bunch of people who I hated at the time.
I doubt medication would have helped, because RMA mismanaged that as much as they mismanaged therapy. And I can't really divorce feelings that may be related to my condition compared to all of the other crap that was simply a reaction to the paces the school put you through.
It's amazing that a school which prided itself on making students "get in touch" could do entirely the opposite, and make you totally confused and bewildered about what was real or authentic, or what was something that may be related to a condition like bipolar or depression, or what was emotional fallout from the program's daily regimen.
Eventually, when the right medication
combination is achieved there should
be no side effects and no cognitive
impairments.
Unless you're on Topomax... aka Dopemax. I forgot people's names on that stuff. I felt like I was smoking pot again, but without the nice high.
However, it does make you lose weight. Probably the only psych med that takes off weight instead of adds it.
_________________
[ This Message was edited by: sorry... try another castle on 2006-01-14 19:10 ]
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http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 320#151333 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3515&forum=9&start=320#151333)
A lengthy and informative article by someone who's been there, re: bipolar treatment.
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I just read the article, and it raises good questions, especially about the lack of longitudinal studies, trendy pharmacology, and hit and miss treatment options. But does anyone have any thing that works to stabilize the mood without killing the personality? Or do you just ride out the pain and agony?
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On 2005-12-01 21:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
When the depression hits nothing works better than clearing my mind. Like I said, surfing, or smoking a lot of weed helps too.
Unfortunately, I have to agree with this. Marijuana is the only thing I've found that can ease the rollercoaster. And for many it just makes the rollercoaster more violent, or creates a host of new problems. Other than that, I just ride it out.
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http://alternativementalhealth.com/articles/bipolar.htm (http://alternativementalhealth.com/articles/bipolar.htm)
You might find some options there. Good resource site with many links. Personally, I'd find a highly skill Dr of Naturopathy or Dr of Oriental Medicine.
From everything I've read, you may have to experiment for a while to find what works for you specifically. There isn't one 'remedy' that works for everyone. The only certain thing is that you won't have to worry about the potentially severe side-effects of psych drugs.
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Thanks, I'll have to check that out. Until then, I will continue to consult with my highly skilled Doctor of Cannabis. He is an excellent practitioner of alternative medicine. And he only charges $40 for the good shit. [ This Message was edited by: providence on 2005-12-02 11:31 ]
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I hear ya. Proved to be the only thing that worked for my son. It is a natural alternative, just happens to be illegal, unfortunately.
I mean... how stupid is it that psych drugs have killed scores of people directly or indirectly and they're legal. Pot has none of those deadly side-effects and I know of no one who's died from it, and it's illegal.
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I thought when the 60's generation got into
politics pot and more would be legalized.
Instead it got worse, go figure.
You probably know the history of the many
uses of Cannibus over the years, if you
need a refresher course, check this book out:
Reefer Madness
Sex, Drugs, and Cheap Labor in the American Black Market by Eric Schlosser
"The book revolves around two figures: Mark Young of Indiana, who was sentenced to life in prison without parole for his relatively minor role in a marijuana deal ... "
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I could go on forever about how ridiculous it is that pot is illegal. Unfortunately, I'm high, and that seems like a daunting task.
Fortunately, I live in California, and yes, I am a card carrier. Not because of the bipolar of course. But in this crazy state, I'm sure that would be a way to get a card.
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On 2005-12-02 15:21:00, providence wrote:
I could go on forever about how ridiculous it is that pot is illegal. Unfortunately, I'm high, and that seems like a daunting task.
Yeah, what's up? I mean, I wonder why the marijuana lobby isn't all that organized?? I assume most of those guys are up as early as 4 in the afternoon. That gives them a few hours to get things done, right?
"Yeah, dude, we want freedom for... uh, what were we talking about again?" :razz:
Heh, I used to self-medicate for my bipolar condition with marijuana. I was a pot-smoking fiend. (I'm not that good at moderating.) Unfortunately, it ended up making me incredibly depressed after years of use, since it is a depressant, after all. Not to mention that I had become as dumb as a post and couldn't even finish sentences anymore without losing my train of thought. It also wasn't all that great for my asthma.
Not saying it won't work for other people, especially if they can manage their use and not be stoned 24/7 like I was (except at work). I had to quit in order to restore some sense of functionality back into my life. (And the floor in my apartment had about two layers of empty 2 liter coke bottles.)
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LITHIUM WORKS!!!!!!!!!
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With lithium, is it possible to retain any exuberance of your personality, or does it just zone you out? What about Abilify?
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i have been on Lithium for about 1 1/2 years and i can honestly say that it has changed my life tremendously. I am also on effexor xr and they both take care of the manic and deperssion. oh and i tried getting on Topamax, but felt like i was loosing it. got off of that shit real quick.
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I think it's important to mention that not any one med works for everyone. Everybody is different, and will have a different reaction to the medication. I know people who have had a great response to lithium, and I know others who were totally spaced out by it and couldn't think straight. Same goes for any other type of psych med.
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I was just informed about this site today...I can see that I'll have a shitload of reading to do as I am a 1986 RMA grad...none of us were on meds at that time for any mental illness.
I was diagnosed with BP in 1994 and it has been quite a rollercoaster ride. My BP is basically refractory (too sensitive to meds) so finally after almost a decade of multitudes of different "cocktails", I pretty much switched over to just smoking pot. Would I recommend it for everybody?...no...because we are all different...some meds work for some people...some don't. Pot works for me and lets me function without becoming a zombie. It doesn't act as a depressant for me...and recently in a Science News article...mention was made that they have been studying it at the University of Sakatchewan in Saskatoon and they feel that it has some efficacy as an anti-depressant and anti-anxiety medication.
I'm just thankful for prop 215 here in California so I can just drive up to the store and choose from over 100 selections...not all are appropriate...but after my own personal experimentation, I have found what works best for ME...and if people don't like it...well...c'est la vie.
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But why Depakote AND Zoloft AND Trazadone?
I know depakote is given more for mood stabilizing purposes (bipolar), zoloft as an anti-d, but what is trazadone?
http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trazodone
Looks like the kid was severely depressed. Trazodone is similar to tricyclic anti-depressants. Basically it's for "Control of Nightmares or other disturbed sleep", possibly due to PTSD, which may or may not indicate abuse of some sort.
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I hear ya. Proved to be the only thing that worked for my son. It is a natural alternative, just happens to be illegal, unfortunately.
I mean... how stupid is it that psych drugs have killed scores of people directly or indirectly and they're legal. Pot has none of those deadly side-effects and I know of no one who's died from it, and it's illegal.
That's exactly WHY pot is illegal. Those legal psychactive drugs which ruin minds make profit for people who drink very expensive liquor.
However, those legal drugs are all marijuana substitutes.
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i have been on Lithium for about 1 1/2 years and i can honestly say that it has changed my life tremendously. I am also on effexor xr and they both take care of the manic and deperssion. oh and i tried getting on Topamax, but felt like i was loosing it. got off of that shit real quick.
Topomax can cause psychosis, but the new PR on it deletes reference to psychosis.
Effexor is always a stimulant first. Most anti-depressant rx from it is a natural reaction to the stimulant structure of the molecule. You can only get the XR version cos the other stuff could cause hypomania and lead to suicidal ideation and really wacky shit.
lithium does not make u happy; it just plays with your sodium-potassium levels and other marvelous shit. it does not relieve anxiety or reduce paranoia.
i have a friend who threw away her lithium and said the seroquel made her sleepy even at the lowest dose.
and right now she needs a OTC sedative for her paranoia. :P
me being the herbalist, i recommend damiana 370 mg 1-3 capsules 1-3 times a day as anti-psychotic with ginseng to relieve depression and valerian (1-3 capsules before bed) for sedative properties. YMMV
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My final 2-bits: a herbal sedative would be best overall.
Something that replaces diphenhydramine which is anti-depressant in low doses <25 mg, sedative in moderate doses 25-150 mg, and a crappy pro-psychotic in large amounts (200+ mg).
Valerian is ok before bed; it even helps one get up regularly.
As a sedative, it's so strong you need either caffeine or ginseng to keep awake.
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Thanks try another castle for your great update on anti depressants, better to say mood stabilizers.You can Buy risperdal (http://http://www.24x7pharmacy.com/information/details-information-buy-risperdal.php).It can stablize smoothly mental restless and calms you within few days of using it. Adult must take 1 milligram every day to get any viable results. It works fine for Schizophrenia patients also.
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I was on risperdal for years and at the lower doses, it didn't do anything, at the higher ones it spaced me the fuck out, unfortunately. I was eventually switched to seroquel, which seems to work for both my anxiety and my insomnia. Unfortunately, it has raised my blood sugar level, and I really don't feel like getting diabetes, thanks.
I'd solely do benzos for anxiety if I could, but they have no effect on me. Neither does gabapentin.
What a choice to have to make.. sanity or diabetes. Hopefully my doc can find another anti-psychotic which will help.
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Castle:What ever hapened with your fish oil experiment?
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I'm still taking it. Don't know if I really see any difference, though. Hard to say. I'm taking the proper amounts, too.
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Castle:It was recommended to me, too. How much is the "proper" amount. I forgot. 1000mg?
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It's a lot. It's more than just the mg amount, it's the mg of fish body oils, epa and dha per pill. Some have higher concentrations than others. I use the trader joe's brand, which actually has a higher concentration than most, even the fancy swanson fish oil.
My pills are 500mg, with a fish body oil of 1100mg. Of that, the EPA is 300mg, and the DHA is 200. I take about six of those pills. Because of the higher concentration, I can take less. Normally you want to take around nine. Best to ask your doctor, though.