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Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: John Underwood on September 19, 2005, 12:56:00 PM

Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: John Underwood on September 19, 2005, 12:56:00 PM
Anyone who was able to free themselves from drug abuse on their own should be congratulated and consider themselves very lucky, maybe even blessed. However, it has been my experience that this is the exception, not the rule. Though I did know, (slightly), a number of persons who were in The Seed, only three ?old druggie friends? of mine were ever in the program. One left after about a month, and I never saw or spoke to him again, nor do I have any idea what happened to him. The other two graduated the program. One I continued to have contact with for a number of years and she did great. Never used drugs or drank alcohol again, married, kids, great life. The other I last saw about three or four years(?) after she graduated the program and at that time she was doing well, clean and happy. That?s as much as I know.

As for those who weren?t in The Seed, one of my best ?druggie friends,? Dave R., is a practicing dentist here in Broward County. Another, Rich S., was a co-worker of mine for a lot of years after I left The Seed. He still smokes and deals pot, quit the hard stuff in the ?70s, and I suppose you could say he?s doing okay, married to the same woman for 20+ years, good kids, successful in his career. Another, Chris C.,  I ran into just a few years ago in Indialalantic. He was the seafood manager at a Publix. He stated that he had found Jesus, moved to Cocoa to return to surfing and his music.

These are/were most my other friends:
Bob L. was shot and killed by North Miami Beach police in a shopping center parking lot in Sunny Isles. Dicky Y. was shot and killed by another friend, Rob J., who, to the best of my knowledge, is spending his life at Stark. Dick R. was shot and killed while attempting to purchase a large quantity of pot in Mexico. Alan S.(he was the 1st), Melanie T., Rich B., Kevin T., Joey R., and Kenny M.(QB of my high school football team, consensus All-Broward player of the year) died from overdose. Mark C. (National Honor Society student, class pres. at So. Brwd. H.S.) died from serum hepatitis. Two died in Vietnam, one in action, the other of a heroin overdose in Saigon. Ronnie B., 2 Bobby D.s, Dale F., Dale W., Bruce H. spent the ?70s and ?80s under the care of the Florida Dept. of Corrections, after that, I have no idea what happened to them. Mike S. was committed to South Florida State Hospital for a long period of time, but I did hear (15 or 20 years ago) that he was alive, got it together, and was doing very well. Russ J., I ran into about ten years after I left The Seed at the KMart in Oakland Park, he was still at the methadone clinic. He informed me that an old girlfriend of mine, Debbie A., was also still on methadone maintenance. Paula Y., another old girlfriend and another National Honor Society student at Nova H.S., moved to San Francisco with the intent of finding druggie paradise, and while being held against her will, was force fed a combination of methedrine and LSD, repeatedly ganged raped over a period of several days, and then institutionalized in California. She moved back to Florida after her release and continues, to this day, to be on medication and under psychiatric care. As for my  best friend of the time, Dave H., (former ?druggie boyfriend? of one of the successful Seed grads), he died from gangrene that resulted from a drunken motorcycle accident. The list goes on and on and on...

Most of the above I knew pre-drugs and they were good kids, a few were very, very good kids. A few were mean, nasty, hateful sobs, and in trouble long before drugs, but only a few. Some I surfed, played baseball or football with, or a combination. Some I just knew from school.
These were real people, not the product of hypothetical speculation or homemade philosophy about what happens to teenage druggies, real human beings. A lot were kids I grew up with, played with, saw almost everyday of my life. NOT anonymous subjects of some report published by Joe Schmoo, P.H.D. or a committee of Dr. Schmoos or some politically motivated government report or self-promoting investigation. REAL PEOPLE! Kids I laughed with, have great, great memories of, kids who I spent time with when young, speculating about what we would be when we grew-up, who we?d marry, how many kids we?d have, when we?d get laid and who would be first, etc. Real people who I knew well, people who  were much like me, and I believe would have benefitted as much as I did from The Seed, if they had been as lucky as me.

I should also mention, specifically for those of you with crystal balls in your heads or just enamored with your own musings, at age 15, not a single one, NONE, of the aforementioned, (including myself), had ever used an illegal drug. Some had used alcohol, myself included, but most, nothing!
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Antigen on September 19, 2005, 01:36:00 PM
John, from the sound of it, the Seedlings you happen to know about didn't fare any better or worse than the non-seedlings you happen to know about.

And that's all the validity you present; just whomever you happened to run across or stay in touch with. Here's some info on some honest to God, peer reviewed (under protest by Enoch Gordis), scientific studies of the question:

http://www.peele.net/lib/projmach.html (http://www.peele.net/lib/projmach.html)

Lucky indeed! According to one NIAAA study, people who abstained from any kind of formal intervention have fared better than those who received formal treatment.

Cult: A religion with no political power.
--Tom Wolfe, American author

Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: marshall on September 19, 2005, 02:06:00 PM
Now that was a great post, John. I have no doubt about what you're saying regarding your old friends. I imagine we'd find similarly poor rates of recovery in true alcoholics (as opposed to problem drinkers) which is why I specifically stated that the numbers & outcomes for those groups (heroin addicts & alcoholics) would probably be much different from my own experience. If the whole deadinsaneorinjail thingie originated from your own experience it would certainly make sense that you would believe and promote it. It was not my experience. The only junkie I ever met was an old guy that came around a friend's house looking for some acid to get him thru being out of junk.

A treatment appropriate for a heroin addict may not appropriate for a teen pot smoker or casual drug user though. A one-size-fits-all approach to substance abuse is not a good idea imo. I'm glad things worked out well for you. I'm glad you and others aren't junkies, dead, etc. This doesn't change my view of coercive programs like the Seed. As Greg mentioned, you could have also been kidnapped by an obscure fundamentalist muslim group and forced to imbibe their philosophy and that may have also caused you to kick drugs. They may have taught you lots of wonderful ideals too. That still wouldn't mean that kidnapping you was the right thing to do or that your madrasa teacher (maybe Osama?) had it all together. Others credit the Straight rehab and the many similar clones with their own sobriety. That doesn't excuse the existence or methodology of those programs either. Two wrongs do not make a right.

My observations about so many people quitting casual drug use (not heroin addiction or alcoholism) on their own (or with the support of their family, friends, church, etc) is also the product of personal experience, not of any studies by the good doctors you mentioned. As a side note, several of the seed graduates I had contact with over the years returned to drug use at some point and one tried to commit suicide right after graduation (you probably remember the person). All sorts of conclusion can be drawn from personal experience. Though at the core we are all very similar, we each have unique experiences and memories.

BTW, that story about the girl who was given methedrine and acid and then gang-raped rang a bell. I read of an incident exactly like that in a book about LSD years ago. It very well could have been describing your friend. Very sad.
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: cleveland on September 19, 2005, 02:08:00 PM
Great post, John.

I too lost High School friends to drugs, suicide, alcohol, and violence. This was a middle-class, suburban American world circe 1979. My list is nowhere near as comprehensive as yours. And of course, I left for college and the Seed and didn't look back much, so I don't know what happened to most of them.

I had a couple of very close friends. One went on to have a stellar career in music - he's well-known today and regularly appears on TV. He's married, has kids and is very happy. Another went to prison for selling -  suffered terribly there, had his teeth knocked out, was sexually abused - when he left, he joined a mothorcycle gang and lost his legs in an accident. He's a wreck; the last I saw him, he was a sad guy who got high just to get by. A third friend got his girlfriend pregnant at 17, married her and joined the army. He dropped out, started drinking, and was briefly homeless; he is now reunited with his wife, has a great job, and is a pretty happy guy.

Other high school acquaintences died in car wrecks, drowning, and suicide. The only person I ever knew who actually went into the Seed, besides myself, is my brother. I will let him tell his own story, but he is a successful guy. I do remember at one post-Seed point though, he told me he believed in nothing.

My family has suffered from alcoholism, which has probably been a response to depression or manic depression, which seems to run in our line. Three out of four grandparents died due to alcholism (and smoking, and overeating, and working too hard), my mom has needed treatment, and I have siblings in AA.

And I still don't think The Seed Indeed Is All You Need. My own experience there was mixed. I may have had more problems to resolve when I left, or maybe not - I will never know. But I have many questions about the experience, which I am actively (and I hope honestly) exploring here.

Currently, I am inclined to think of The Seed as a variation on a cultic, quasi-religion, that started in the US as Buchmanism, went to England as The Oxford Group, had an offshoot which became AA, another that became Synanon, the Seed, Straight, etc.

What's common to all of these is a cultic devotion to a leader, a semi-religious fervor, a mistrust of reason, the use of peer pressure, demonization of all who question the group, a rigid heirarchy, and sense of 'us against them.' I am not in favor of these methods, so I must oppose the their further growth. However, I do not question your sincerity in believing that the Seed helped you. And I am sure there are others, many posting here. But that doesn't make it right for me, not at all. I believe there are better ways to deal with drug use and abuse, but they have been overshadowed by the spread of cultic thinking that started with Buchmanism and The Oxford Group. Please know, thought, that even if I am not with you, I am not against you, either. I'd like to build on what was valuable for me at the Seed - the comraderie, the spirit of the group, the humor and friendship. Those things I will keep.

Walter
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Antigen on September 19, 2005, 02:55:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-19 11:06:00, marshall wrote:

BTW, that story about the girl who was given methedrine and acid and then gang-raped rang a bell. I read of an incident exactly like that in a book about LSD years ago. It very well could have been describing your friend. Very sad.


Or it could be urban legend. I distinctly remember a rumor about you, John, having returned to heroin. Don't think I believed it or anything. You should hear some of the rumors my own mother spread about me!

I don't think that a drug that creates euphoria in patients with terminal diseases is having an adverse effect.
--San Francisco oncologist & AIDS doctor, Donald Abrams, M.D.

Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: marcwordsmith on September 19, 2005, 02:58:00 PM
I hate to spoil the politeness party here, but John, every time you post, you just reveal yourself to be a bigger jackass.

What exactly is your point? All these people who ended so badly, and they weren't using drugs yet at 15 . . . is this some kind of evidence that all 15 year old non-Seedlings were bound for Hell? I mean, what on earth are you suggesting?

As a 40-something baby boomer, NEARLY EVERY PERSON I'VE EVER MET IN MY LIFE did some drugs in their teens. Furthermore, everyone I knew who was in the Seed at the same time I was returned to using drugs within a year or two.

I think it is dishonorable and pathetic to trot out the tragic stories of people whom you've known, in an attempt to use those stories as some sort of justification for the Seed, and for your own role in the Seed. Just how much are you willing to contort yourself, how many rationalizations are you going to reach for, before you simply admit that you fucked up? Asshole.
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: GregFL on September 19, 2005, 03:18:00 PM
Damn John It seems you associated with some real losers.

 :grin:

But in all seriousness, I got in contact with my pre seed peer group a couple years ago. Not all faired so well..., one of them was a politician and another gawd forbid a sheriff!  

Still another, Dale Long, died of a drug overdose. That is about all I know of my old "druggie" friends.

My seed friends.  FUCK, now contained in here is a bunch of people that really didn't make it.

Lets start with big Frank, died of an overdose just a couple years ago...got the "spanking your bare ass therapy" from his oldcomer. How about Kienzle's brother, died recently  preported as an addict and the the seedling part of the family didn't even have the stones or common decency to attend the funeral.

Bennett Beverly...jumped off the skyway after "sucessfully" completing the program. cris Kelly, crashed his motorcycle into a tree in a suspicious one vehicle accident after graduating.  Dave Leverone..filled up a needle with Heroin and Speed and mainlined himself to death right in front of his wife and kid..another successfull seed graduate.

There is at least two seed graduates sitting on florida's death row as we wax philisophically back and forth.

I myself used in a much more destructive manner, angry at the world and totally rejecting authority...again after sucessfully graduating the seed.  In fact, almost everyone I knew that graduated the seed started drinking, smoking pot or worse after the lockup with Art, Libby and the rest of you egomaniacs.

FUCK, I don't even want to play this silly game any more, it makes me sick.

 John, you got reality problems and an ego that just frankly gets in the way of any real discussion.

The things you did at the seed, Mr John Underwood, cannot be excused by using this straw man argument.  Children were hurt there, and I was one of them, and you were one of the perpetrators.

Any questions?
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: GregFL on September 19, 2005, 03:44:00 PM
By the way John, I forgive you for everything you did back then.
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Anonymous on September 19, 2005, 03:50:00 PM
Pathetic, tragic stories of other people and then you ask what's the point? Me and hundreds of others would be those people if not for
The Seed! How hard is that to grasp?
Greg, Marc, because you two obviously don't give a rat's ass about anybody other than yourselves which you make blantantly apparent in every myopic, callous, self-serving post, doesn't mean others of us didn't care. Whining, crying, self-important, haters that still want to point the finger at anybody but themselves for the problems in their lives is who you are. Lie, deny, spout  philosophy 'til hell freezes over, it doesn't change a thing. THE SEED WORKED, BUT IT DIDN'T WORK FOR YOU, AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM, AND THAT'S THE SOURCE OF YOUR HOSTILITY, PERIOD! NEITHER OF YOU HAVE THE INTEGRITY OR HONESTY TO JUST SAY IT. MOST LOVED IT AND THAT PISSES YOU OFF. NO MORE TIME FOR ADULTS THAT STILL NEED THEIR DIAPERS CHANGED. ALL OF THIS IS CRYSTAL CLEAR TO ANYONE WITH EVEN A TINY PORTION OF A BRAIN THAT READS WHAT YOU WRITE.
John U
To be continued...You really don't believe that I have any intention of letting either of you off the hook this easy I hope!
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: marcwordsmith on September 19, 2005, 03:55:00 PM
Greg, it looks like the nonentities are after us again.

Strong words from "Anonymous" always crack me up. Glad the Seed taught you courage of your convictions there, Anon.

Or was "John U." a signature above? Hmm. Something fishy going on . . .

John, Anon, whoever you are/were, I do want to say that I'm glad the Seed worked to relieve you of your own hostility. Clearly you are a paragon of equanimity today.
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: GregFL on September 19, 2005, 04:00:00 PM
It didn't work for you either John. They kicked you out and wouldn't even let you back in the door or even speak to you.  You might as well have been one of those "druggie losers' you speak of as far as the seed was concerned.  

Marc nor me has indicated we have "problems" now in our lives because of anything you did. You DO NOT HAVE THAT POWER John, nor is your attempt to shine the light away from the facts onto us working here.

We are talking about events that occured 30 Years ago, NOT ABOUT OUR LIVES TODAY.

It is you that needs a reality slap straight across the cheek.

Your attempts at belittling others in order to raise yourself up on a pedestal here has not gone unnoticed, nor is it working.

Why don't you just go ahead and apologize for the things you did back then and get it over with?
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: GregFL on September 19, 2005, 04:03:00 PM
What a freaken joke. John U Posts a "come down on ya" in all caps and suggests he "isnt letting us off the hook".

Shove it up yur arse John. You are  powerless  here.  I am not 14 years old against your 24 years anymore.  

Get it?
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Antigen on September 19, 2005, 04:16:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-19 12:50:00, Anonymous wrote:

Pathetic, tragic stories of other people and then you ask what's the point? Me and hundreds of others would be those people if not for
The Seed! How hard is that to grasp?


How hard? Impossible for anyone who dares question and investigate the veracity of the statement rather than just accept it on faith.

You're the one who's hostile, John. And you demostrate so well the problem that occures w/ this kind of faith based "reasoning". Even after all these years, you still get hostile over objective discussion about the cult? I sure hope you're not in a position of authority over anyone else, especially as regards substance use or abuse. That kind of thinking can be very dangerous.

And that's the only part of my life that is still messed up or complicated as a result of this cult. Regardless of the very minor disagreemensts (ego issues?) that cause the Straight faction to split from the mother church, this same philosophy prpagated by the same based methods has resulted in these same lunatics weilding a lot of power in public policy. Anybody who thought they were dangerous enough w/ control over a warehouse full of teenagers for a year or two ought to understand that these same crazy bastards now weild an astounding amount of influence in law enforcement, military, education, professional certification and licensing, public spending, public "science", etc.

Here's a current news item out of Salon that illustrates my point.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... forum=32&0 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=11810&forum=32&0)

So, according to your logical algorythym, is Maia a Seed fuckup too? How else could she possibly arrive at her critical notions about these philisophical allies of yours except by way of having failed the Seed?

"The Program" and two years will get you a vastly improved kid in *EXACTLY* the same way that "The Program" and four bucks will get you a cup of espresso at Starbucks.

Timoclea

Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Stripe on September 19, 2005, 05:18:00 PM
You guys know this:  You will never get an apology from this one who calls himself John Underwood.

An apology would require acknowledging a wrong-doing.  Investigation of wrong-doing would require a moral inventory of a proportions of which I don't think the seed or it's supporters would be capable of performing. It's much more than answering a series of structured questions designed to lead to only one approved conclusion.

For some reason, apology is just not in the lexicon of seedtalk. I guess it's taken as a sign of weakness by Seedlings.  It is, afterall, much easier to refuse to acknowledge or discuss such unpleasantness than admit a wrong.  

I challenge you this, John Underwood:  Look at your life and tell me why are all those whom you have identified in such states of misfortune?  What is it about YOU that brings, swirls, and holds all of this misfortune, sadness,  death and confusion to you and the lives of those you touch?  That's where you need to look.  

You can yell at me in big letters all day long, but the bottom line is this: what you put out there is exactly what you will get back. It's no mystery.

 [ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-09-19 14:32 ]
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Thom on September 19, 2005, 07:09:00 PM
Hi John,

 I pop in here occasionally when one of my 'watched topics' catches my attention, or to say hi to my Sister, Ginger. Good to hear from you and that you are enjoying life. You are deserving of it. I am saddened to hear of the tragic loss of so many of your friends. I have a list not quite so long, but every bit as sobering. I know people who stopped using drugs simply out of maturity (blessed), but not many. Having left Florida in '83, I have lost track of many of the people I grew up with. Among my 5 siblings and me, all have used, 4 were Seed attendees, (5 if you count open meetings, making sandwiches and eating at Denny?s.)

The oldest didn't use until college, no Seed, and is AA sober for about 16 years now, and having a great life. Politically liberal, but nobody is perfect  :grin: (I don't think there is really a category like that for members of this cult. Seems to be either never used again, no thanks to Seed, or never had a problem until Seed involvement, Seed ruined my life, yadda, yadda, yadda. I am helped by prescribed anti-depressant, and am therefore considered a drug abuser by Staff here)

I am deeply grateful to, and greatly respect you and Art and all involved for presenting the option of a good life. Wish I had stayed straight; blame no one for my decision not to, very grateful for another chance.

Next Sister was Junior Staff for a bit, left for reasons unknown to me, smoked a bit for a while, now a social drinker, happy, wonderful person.

Ginger is my baby Sister. Her story is all over this site, no need for me to add anything. Anything I say can and will be used against me.

Anyway, great to hear from you. You still have your leadership skills. I see a small change in tone since you started posting. Glad you are here.
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Thom on September 19, 2005, 07:12:00 PM
Stripe, if you don't get help at Charter, get help somewhere.
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Anonymous on September 20, 2005, 04:55:00 AM
another stepper steps up to the plate to insult someone they don't agree with.

You guys collectively need a real strong mirror.
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Anonymous on September 20, 2005, 04:58:00 AM
Oh yeah, Mr JU's big bad leadership skills are real evident here.  He now has gone from locking kids up and screaming at them till they shit their pants to locking the caps lock on his computer.


What a leader!


 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Thom on September 20, 2005, 05:27:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-20 01:55:00, Anonymous wrote:

"another stepper steps up to the plate to insult someone they don't agree with.
You guys collectively need a real strong mirror."
 So....let me get this straight. Only non-steppers are qualified to insult people today? I find your comment insulting. This is what I was refering to.

Quote
I challenge you this, John Underwood: Look at your life and tell me why are all those whom you have identified in such states of misfortune? What is it about YOU that brings, swirls, and holds all of this misfortune, sadness, death and confusion to you and the lives of those you touch? That's where you need to look.


The suggestion that John is responsible for the death and imprisonment of his high school friends is at best unfounded and at worst a statement from a confused mind that could probably use some help sorting things out. My comment, although a bit on the sarcastic side, was not intended as an insult, but a suggestion.
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: GregFL on September 20, 2005, 05:39:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-19 12:50:00, John Underwood wrote:

Me and hundreds of others would be those people if not for

The Seed! How hard is that to grasp?



So glad your crystal ball functions so clearly!

I used the example of my own child in a previous post. He is a wonderfull kid that got angry over a bitter divorce and started abusing alcohol, cigarrettes and a little of the smelly stuff at 16.  I took a different less radical approach and allowed HIM to figure it out and he is about to graduate college and is a well adjusted (except he is conservative!) person.

Now, I could have locked him away in synanon seed style treatment. He may have got angry, left, ran, started cutting himself, developed a mental illness from the stress of being held captive...found himself on the outs with his family, started using hard drugs..killed himself, or any number of other negative results.


This shit happened at the seed  and continues to happen to this day in the seed knock off programs.


 You want to pretend that the seed was a dose of good medicine for all whether you needed it or not.  What a crock of bull dung!



Go ahead, close your eyes to it, press firmly down on that "Caps lock" button, and try to divert those facts by attacking me personally. It wont work.


 The program harms kids and is no place for a non addicted juvenile. Those that bullied little kids under the guise of "saving" them that want to come here and have us help them whitewash it....taint gonna happen.

But I forgive you, I honestly do.  At least what you did back then. Your attitude now is another story.

An apology to those that you had a hand in terrorizing so many years ago would not be out of order.
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Antigen on September 20, 2005, 11:27:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-20 02:27:00, Thom wrote:

My comment, although a bit on the sarcastic side, was not intended as an insult, but a suggestion.


Bullshit. It was an insult.

A slipping gear could let your M203 grenade launcher fire when you least expect it.  That would make you quite unpopular in what's left of your unit.
-- In the August 1993 issue, page 9, of PS magazine, the Army's magazine of preventive maintenance

Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Antigen on September 20, 2005, 11:30:00 AM
Here's a nice first step for all former staffers. What if you were to apologize for just one thing; say the forced strip searches? You must, by now, have come to terms w/ the fact that that was pretty fucked up and unneccesarry, right? Never mind talking about the real reasons why they do that unless and until you're ready. But if you could just be bigger people than the smirking chimp and just admit w/ some sincerity that that one crime you committed over and over again was wrong, that might help things a little.

Infidel: In New York, one who does not believe in the Christian religion, in Constantinople, one who does.
--Ambrose Bierce

Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Stripe on September 20, 2005, 03:50:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-20 02:27:00, Thom wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-09-20 01:55:00, Anonymous wrote:


"another stepper steps up to the plate to insult someone they don't agree with.

You guys collectively need a real strong mirror."

 So....let me get this straight. Only non-steppers are qualified to insult people today? I find your comment insulting. This is what I was refering to.



Quote
I challenge you this, John Underwood: Look at your life and tell me why are all those whom you have identified in such states of misfortune? What is it about YOU that brings, swirls, and holds all of this misfortune, sadness, death and confusion to you and the lives of those you touch? That's where you need to look.



The suggestion that John is responsible for the death and imprisonment of his high school friends is at best unfounded and at worst a statement from a confused mind that could probably use some help sorting things out. My comment, although a bit on the sarcastic side, was not intended as an insult, but a suggestion.
"


What I suggested is way beyond the step-craft that soaks some of the minds here. For starters, one has to look inside first to see why the life surrounding them is so messy.  It's not messy because everyone didn't go to the seed. I see from the responses that I was putting too much information out there and was wrong to expect anything but what I got in return. My bad.  (See how easy it is to admit a mistake?)

Life gets messy and people die or meet with varying levels of misfortune because of choices we make in our own lives: choices like whether or not to stike a wife or loved one. Everything you or I do affects those around us.  Nothing we do ever occurs in a vaccume. It would be nice if we could isolate the bad effects, but we can't.

And perhaps, just maybe, your behavior or John's behavior, maybe over the  years you have influenced the choices that these poor unforutnates made.  Maybe, just maybe, on some level you might be responsible for some, NOT ALL, but some of the bad outcome.

There is no way you can attribute all the bad things that happened to those folks to not being "in a program" or on a program. That's stupid.  That's just as stupid as you getting the idea that I was saying John is "responsible for the death and imprisonment of his high school friends."
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Antigen on September 20, 2005, 04:25:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-20 02:27:00, Thom wrote:

The suggestion that John is responsible for the death and imprisonment of his high school friends is ...


...precisely as rediculous as to suggest that anyone's troubles ever derived from failure to embrace the Seed or stepcraft or any other cult. I think that was the point.

The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad.
-- Salvador Dali



_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Thom on September 20, 2005, 05:51:00 PM
Quote


What I suggested is way beyond the step-craft that soaks some of the minds here.


I'm thankful to you for putting that disclaimer at the beginning of your post. It explains to me, a stepper, why the logic in much of what you write after it eludes me. I have appearantly, as I believe you suggest, been mentally crippled by these wretched 12 steps.....woe is me.... Oh, Enlightened one.... what must I do to be saved from this evil spell witch (intentional spelling humor) has been cast over me?  

Please let me know which of the folowing items is offensive to you, and I'll see what I can do about getting it/them customized for you. Don't bother with the God steps. He is pretty much set on them. (the rest of them look pretty much like what you are asking John to do!....say, you're not some kind of double-agent, are you?)  :scared:          

THE TWELVE STEPS (generic version)

1. We admitted we were powerless over
whatever?that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater
than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our
lives over to the care of God as we understood
Him.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral
inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to
another human being the exact nature of our
wrongs.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove
all these defects of character.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed,
and became willing to make amends to them
all.

9. Made direct amends to such people
wherever possible, except when to do so
would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory
and when we were wrong promptly admitted
it.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation
to improve our conscious contact with God, as
we understood Him, praying only for knowledge
of His will for us and the power to carry
that out.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the
result of these steps, we tried to carry this
message to addicts, and to practice these
principles in all our affairs.
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Antigen on September 20, 2005, 06:30:00 PM
I never got past the first one. You're not powerless, neither am I, nobody is. It's not the beer and crack frittering away the profit from mine and Dad's investment. It's our brother doing that, abeted by our sister. They're not powerless either.

The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.
--George Bernard Shaw, Irish-born English playwright

Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Thom on September 20, 2005, 06:48:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-20 15:30:00, Antigen wrote:

"I never got past the first one. You're not powerless, neither am I, nobody is. It's not the beer and crack frittering away the profit from mine and Dad's investment. It's our brother doing that, abeted by our sister. They're not powerless either.


OK, hows this?

THE TWELVE STEPS (revised generic version)

1. You're not powerless, neither am I, nobody is. It's not the beer and crack frittering away the profit from mine and Dad's investment. It's our brother doing that, abeted by our sister. They're not powerless either.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater
than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our
lives over to the care of God as we understood
Him.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral
inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to
another human being the exact nature of our
wrongs.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove
all these defects of character.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed,
and became willing to make amends to them
all.

9. Made direct amends to such people
wherever possible, except when to do so
would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory
and when we were wrong promptly admitted
it.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation
to improve our conscious contact with God, as
we understood Him, praying only for knowledge
of His will for us and the power to carry
that out.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the
result of these steps, we tried to carry this
message to addicts, and to practice these
principles in all our affairs.
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Stripe on September 20, 2005, 07:19:00 PM
Thom,

All I've been trying to tell you - and you keep diverting to the 12 step stuff, is that John Underwood, Lybbi, Susie, your hero Art Barker and every other person who held power and/or exercised it without regard to the ultimate consequences - every single one of "you people" at that shit-hole, mindfuck place called theseed do ABSOLUTELY bear responsibility and are accountable for the actions each of you took. Period.  That's it.

To quote a "no child left behind" product: "Dude, it's not rocket surgery."

You can yank justifications for your behavior out of you ass all day long. The fact that you yank 'em out for John Underwood shows me how truly controlled you are/were by theseed.  I hope the loyalty runs both ways.

The bottom line is this:  People who hide behind the program regiemes and boldly claim they are not accountable for their actions are foolish and are lying to themselves. That's just my opinon.  And we all know the rule about opinions, don't we?
See ya 'round.  [ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-09-20 16:28 ]
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: GregFL on September 20, 2005, 10:15:00 PM
Quote
I hope the loyalty runs both ways.



It doesn't. Never did and never will. "love" and "loyalty" at the seed began and ended with complete surrender and total compliance. Once even the perception of any of that stopped, you were literally kicked to the curb.


In the eyes of the Seed, Thom was a failure. So was John. In fact, John hasn't even told this story, but he ran into libby some years after leaving and tried to speak to her and she wouldn't even look at him.

Loyalty? Love?  Two of the biggest lies ever told at the seed, and one of the dangers of twelve step programs in general... When you stop believing in the religion IN TOTALITY you are as good as dead , a fallen soldier. This is usually after significant personal sacrifice in the name of the group and often after substituting the group for your genetic family. There is danger in this and many people go from this point into extreme personal crisis, often leaving with no other support group and taking the misquided "steps" with them, believing they are powerless without the group and believing that they failed the group instead of seeing the truth, that the group failed them.

Thom, in answer to your question, the twelve steps are built on a foundation of error..step #1 is only true for people with severe compulsive personality disorder, not for the general population at large.
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: GregFL on September 20, 2005, 10:35:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-20 16:19:00, Stripe wrote:

"Thom,



All I've been trying to tell you - and you keep diverting to the 12 step stuff, is that John Underwood, Lybbi, Susie, your hero Art Barker and every other person who held power and/or exercised it without regard to the ultimate consequences .... ABSOLUTELY bear responsibility and are accountable for the actions each of you took. Period.  That's it.



Well, I take a slightly different opinion on that. I forgive them all in totality. I have the knowledge that for the most part, no one was malicious but just caught up in a run away train.  I too did things while under the influence of the cult that I am not proud of today, but in absence of the people I directly affected coming around here and posting, I am not going to apologize to anyone for it. Hell, I did the best I could back then to get thru it.

There are certain people I would like to apologize to if I could find them, but I don't even remember their names.
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Robin Martin on September 20, 2005, 10:50:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-19 16:09:00, Thom wrote:


Ginger is my baby Sister. Her story is all over this site, no need for me to add anything. Anything I say can and will be used against me.



No doubt Thom - and I thought MY FAMILY was dysfunctional! I guess I'm not alone anymore...
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Robin Martin on September 20, 2005, 11:00:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-19 09:56:00, John Underwood wrote:

"Anyone who was able to free themselves from drug abuse on their own should be congratulated and consider themselves very lucky, maybe even blessed. However, it has been my experience that this is the exception, not the rule.


Hey John, I made a similar post a while back which seemed to be ignored and attacked also... don't fret. I have my list of friends who are/were "deadinsaneorinjail".

Although I appreciate their collective talents in creating and moderating this site, albeit the "Greg-n'Ginger pony show", it's been nice to be able to connect w/ past friends.
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Thom on September 21, 2005, 01:18:00 AM
Quote

Although I appreciate their collective talents in creating and moderating this site, albeit the "Greg-n'Ginger pony show", it's been nice to be able to connect w/ past friends.
"

Hey Robin,
 
  Thanks for the kind words, and for identifying with me. I know I'm quoting your post to John above, but that last part got my attention. My wife and I were headed to one of our 12 step cult meetings tonight, (if we miss one, we'll probably die the next day, I'm told...good thing for us we happen to enjoy them) and we were discussing the recent postings on this thread. After a few laughs over some of the more bizarre items, I said something very similar to what you posted.
 
   Straight up, I am very proud of Ginger for the energy, focus, passion and tenacity she pours into this site. She feels strongly about her views, and expresses them well. I believe our Dad would be/is proud of her as well.

   He, also, was very well read, and involved in trying to bring about change where he saw injustice. He was forever writing Congressmen, Senators, Presidents, newspapers, local politicians and boldly sharing his views. Sometimes his writings were welcome, othertimes he was invited to discontinue sharing his ideas.

   Once, The FBI showed up at his door after a letter to The White House got their attention. Nixon, I think. They left satisfied that he was not a physical threat to The President.

   Then there was his Walk To Washington, DC in '82 to demonstrate to the Postal Service (and himself) that he was NOT physically unable to carry mail as they had said when they fired him.

   The trip was about 1100 miles with a 40 pound back pack. Not bad for a 58 year old permanently disabled guy. I hope I always retain the image of him stepping off the train (you didn't expect him to walk home TOO, did you. His first words to me were, "I can do ANYTHING!!!" and later, "I hope I have demonstrated one thing to my kids. You CAN fight city hall!"

   He got his job back with the support of then Florida Senator Paula Hawkins. Lawyers screwed him out of $20,000 in fees when he went for back pay, but he was able to work another 9 years, and draw his regular retirement.

   Ironically, 'the bastards' were right. Unknown to them, because they never sent him for a physical exam before firing him, he had a bad ticker and had refused bypass surgery in about '78. I know because I'm the one who took him to the hospital that day after finding him laying face down on a bed having a heart attack. He popped nitro the rest of his life, and made it another 20 years on shear will!

   The "old Bastard", as he liked to refer to himself, was not going to let ANYONE tell him he could not work if he chose to. Not the union, who essentially threw him to the dogs, and had NO part in helping him. not the post office, not even his own body.

   All that about Dad, of whom I am very proud, to give you an idea of Ginger's bloodline. She exhibits many of his better traits.

   It may seem strange for me to be praising Ginger, seeing as how we see eye to eye on very little when it comes to things discussed here, but hey, give credit where it is due. My hope for her is that she one day comes to understand that powerlessness does NOT equate to weakness. We all need help at some point. Those who recognize when they are at that point, and accept the help win, those who don't, miss out, and often spend the remainder of their lives stuck in the past. I believe if Dad had been at a place where he could trust doctors in '78, he would likely still be bouncing around on his farm in WV. There is a lesson there for me.

   I never would have believed it if I hadn't had a similar thing happen to me. My surrender and admission of powerlessness was NOT to (your drug here), but to God. I had already tried surrendering to (your drug here), and it almost killed me. I spent a big chunk of my life running from The One who only wanted to share His peace with me, hiding, or so I thought, from Him behind various drugs, until at last I ran out of run. You know how some of us are, never asking for directions, prefering to drive around lost all night than admit we need help. His name is Jesus.

   I praise God for my salvation. Art, John, Lybbi, Lybbi, Lybbi, etc. were only tools. We had in common that they had been where I was headed. I thank God for them too but not as gods or heros. it's people!.....Soilent Green is made out of people! (sorry, my seriousness clock just wound down)

Peace to you (all), as well! ::soapbox::
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: GregFL on September 21, 2005, 10:51:00 AM
Thanks for that post Tom.
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: cleveland on September 21, 2005, 11:15:00 AM
Thanks Thom, for that heartfelt post. I think you have captured what makes you guys so great - and so crazy! (I mean that in a good way...)

While I, more and more, disagree with the AA way, I do understand that it does work for some people. I feel the same way about the Catholic Church, too, come to think of it, among other religions that claim that there way is the only way. And while that doesn't resonate for me, I do have family members who swear by AA. And I was involved for some years the Al Anon and Adult Children of Alcoholics. I have been there (although I know these groups are apostasy to AA!) Well, by and by we may come to understandone another. I don't want to 'win' or 'lose' a debate here, only to understand. Rationally! NOT on faith alone. That's why AA doesn't appeal to me, or the Seed - I don't want to take anything on faith. Accept my own personal beliefs...which I don't expect anyone else to care about. Best to you - you are no less opinionated and um, somewhat harsh, than your lovely sister...

Walter
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Antigen on September 21, 2005, 04:59:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-20 22:18:00, Thom wrote:

It may seem strange for me to be praising Ginger, seeing as how we see eye to eye on very little when it comes to things discussed here, but hey, give credit where it is due.

Strange? What in the world is so strange about a brother saying nice, supportive things about his little sister? Oh yeah, I almost forgot, I'm an apostate. Better not get my hopes up.....

Quote
My hope for her is that she one day comes to understand that powerlessness does NOT equate to weakness.

Ah, the punch line! I knew it was coming. Did you? "Too bad the poor dear is missing out on the gift of powerlessenss. What a shame!"

Quote
I praise God for my salvation. Art, John, Lybbi, Lybbi, Lybbi, etc. were only tools. We had in common that they had been where I was headed.


Thom, you must be looking into the same crystal ball as John is. Where were you headed before the Seed? Who the hell knows? All I know about that is where you landed up afterward. And I don't think it's unreasonable at all to assume that the Seed had a profound influence on those events.

Your wishing the same for me is like a damned death threat! It hurts me to know that you'd want that for me almost as much as what you evidently assume about my life, having not been a part of it for decades now.

Thanks but no thanks. I do miss you, but not enough to risk my own sanity and happiness by forever fending off your attempts to "help" me gain what you've got. I don't want it, frankly. I'm quite happy w/ what I've got, even w/o your involvement.

There is nothing on earth intended for innocent people so horrible as a school.  To begin with, it is a prison.  But it is in some respects more cruel than a prison.  In a prison, for instance, you are not forced to read books written by the wardens...School was to me a sentence of penal servitude.
--George Bernard Shaw

Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Thom on September 22, 2005, 12:05:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-21 13:59:00, Antigen wrote:


Your wishing the same for me is like a damned death threat! It hurts me to know that you'd want that for me almost as much as what you evidently assume about my life, having not been a part of it for decades now.



Thanks but no thanks. I do miss you, but not enough to risk my own sanity and happiness by forever fending off your attempts to "help" me gain what you've got. I don't want it, frankly. I'm quite happy w/ what I've got, even w/o your involvement."


I guess that was a bit on the preachy side. I make no apology or retraction, but I respect your skepticism. Let me re-state. I wish for you and yours the best that life has to offer. What I wish for me is to see the day when all this Seed/Straight stuff is settled for you, and you and I can sit down and have a normal conversation. Talk about Grandkids and vacations and stuff. No debates, no interrogation, Just a brother and sister who care about each other and can enjoy each other's company. I miss you too....as much as a stepcraft zombie can, I quess. :wink:

_________________
later, Thom

I think I know where I got off track! I thought the 11th step said 'Sought through beer and medication to remove our conscious contact w/ God...I plead lysdexia![ This Message was edited by: Thom on 2005-09-21 21:23 ]

Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: GregFL on September 22, 2005, 01:53:00 AM
You guys should make it happen. Set a guideline on off the table topics and hook your families up.

Almost brings a tear to my eye thinking about it.
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Antigen on September 22, 2005, 11:03:00 AM
So you say, Thom. I've heard that before, and believed it, and made plans and traveled and got my hopes up and got my kids all excited. Ya' don't have to hit me over the head w. a 2x4 more than a few times. I finally "got it".

Thanks for the well wishes, Greg. But he really doesn't talk so sweet w/o an audience.
 

My initial response was to sue her for defamation of character, but then I realized that I had no character.
-- Charles Barkley, on hearing Tonya Harding proclaim herself "the Charles Barkley of figure skating"

Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on September 22, 2005, 07:15:00 PM
And I'm sure you do, my dear. :silly:
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Antigen on September 22, 2005, 08:27:00 PM
What you see is what you get, darlin'.

               The body of
        Benjamin Franklin, printer,
      (Like the cover of an old book,
            Its contents worn out,
    And scripts of it's lettering and gilding)
       Lies Here, food for worms!
     Yet the work itself shall not be lost,
For it will, as he believed, appear once more
                 In a new
         And more beautiful edition,
          Corrected and amended
                By it's Author!

Epitaph for himself.

--Benjamin Franklin 1706-1790

Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on September 23, 2005, 07:38:00 AM
Thats what I was afraid of.   :grin:

Lighten up and try givin Thom a break.  It seems to me like hes trying to do right by everyone as well as himself.  

Just try being nice and kind... I know it might be somewhat of a foreign concept, but sometimes it works.

Sorry for my wizeassness- you bring out the best in me.  You make me wanna be a better man. :grin:
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Antigen on September 23, 2005, 07:52:00 AM
Yeah, right? I need advice from you on how to be more charming and diplomatic. Here's an idea. Why not set up a new stepcraft cult just for people like us? You can call it Assholes Anonymous, run free ads in the classified section. Then show up at Denny's just to watch see what kind of assholes show up.  :rofl:

Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its
best state is but a necessary evil ---in its worst state an
intolerable one; for when we suffer, or are exposed to the same
miseries by a government, which we might expect in a country without
government, our calamities is heightened by reflecting that we
furnish the means by which we suffer!


Thomas Paine, Common Sense

Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on September 23, 2005, 07:57:00 AM
Now you'll probably say I should call for funding from Dupont.  Who ever he is. :grin:
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on September 23, 2005, 07:58:00 AM
And by the way I think you already started that one all on your own. :rofl:
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Antigen on September 23, 2005, 09:47:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-23 04:57:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:

"Now you'll probably say I should call for funding from Dupont.  Who ever he is. :grin: "


Such proud ignorance. You think you know all about this little cult of yours. But I think you probably sense, on some level, that a little factual investigation might cause your beliefs about it to disintegrate.

Or are you just a bald faced liar; pretending to not know the whole story? It's really hard to tell sometimes.

Give me the youth, and Germany will rule the world.
--Hitler

Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on September 23, 2005, 10:02:00 AM
I think the term is "Bold face" although I am loosing my hair.  

I'm not amazed that your so BOLD to ask.

Proud ignorance thats an interesting term "one should possibly reflect on that one their own self"... Honey.


The words you seem to obsess on the most =
cult, Dupont, Synonon, Korean mind control,
strip search, oh well thats all I can think of for now. :grin:
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on September 23, 2005, 10:04:00 AM
Oh yeah I forgot ...you are the expert on all and everything...oh yeah you never even went to the Seed . Did you?

You keep trying to portray that you have...but ...NOT..... :grin:
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Anonymous on September 23, 2005, 10:23:00 AM
for christ's sake, would you two just get a room, and get it over with
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Antigen on September 23, 2005, 11:08:00 AM
::puke::

You don't get everything you want. A dictatorship would be a lot
easier.
--GW Büsh, Governor of Texas. Governing Magazine, 7/98

Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Thom on September 24, 2005, 06:28:00 AM
Quote

On 2005-09-23 08:08:00, Antigen wrote:

" ::boohoo::
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: SMiamiPimp on November 19, 2005, 08:58:00 PM
John,

Thanks for the posts! I agree with your description of the devastation.
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: NOT12NOW on November 21, 2005, 02:03:00 PM
Dear John,
The first time I noticed that a staff member was on this site (you) I was really excited. I read your post and all the posts that follow carefully.  When I was done I added my own thoughts.  

The other day I logged on and saw a new thread started by john underwood again, and again many posts in response followed it.  I started to read the thread but was surprised to find it didn?t engage me.   You just say the same shit over and over.  Have you read anything anyone has written here?  

I guess I just don?t care anymore if anyone on the staff ever ?gets it.?  I don?t have to care. I survived your abuse.  The long list of dead doesn?t scare me anymore.   I know what it means to be a seed success, after all I used to be one, and quite honestly I?d rather be dead than still be a seed drone.

I care about understanding what happened to me so I can be free of it.  I care about the other brave people sorting it out on this site.  I care about stopping other programs that grew out of the seed so no other scared twelve-year-old goes through what I did.  I long to apologize to my newcomer. And I don?t need you to do any of those things.  

The only reason for you to accept the fact that you damaging some scared kids is to heal yourself.  
Good luck finding you heart.
Title: especially for Marshall, Greg,
Post by: Antigen on November 21, 2005, 03:27:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-11-21 11:03:00, NOT12NOW wrote:

 I know what it means to be a seed success, after all I used to be one, and quite honestly I?d rather be dead than still be a seed drone.


I hear ya! I remember thinking that when I first ran from home cause I had gotten wind that my mom was trying to put me in the Program. And, again, when I finally escaped two years later. To some extent, I believed the propaganda about turning into a pathetic junkie if I broke w/ the Program. But I had decided it was worth it. The horror stories were, after all, an unknown. I couldn't explain it to anybody what was so awful that I felt the need to go and get myself lost in the world. But the urge was overwhelmingly strong, none the lese.

Some times the devil that you know is so unbearably horrible that the devil that ya' don't know starts looking pretty damned good!

Thank GOD it was all just fear mongering! Here I am, 20 odd years later, stubornly happy, healthy and successful despite having rejected the Program in total.

If you believe that people cannot be trusted to govern themselves,
then can they be trusted to govern others?
 
--Thomas Jefferson