Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Straight, Inc. and Derivatives => Topic started by: shady grove on September 15, 2005, 09:02:00 AM
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I have a question for those of you who use drugs. I guess mostly the illegal ones and alcohol:
How do you have power over the use of these chemicals?
I realize that this will seem like an absurd and possibly insulting question. I mean it in the most humble way, though.
I am looking for discussions on this free of rhetoric, metaphor or analogies.
Thanks
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If we were to translate sg's question substituting "have power over" with "not let it become a problem" then it becomes an easy question to answer -- I just don't drink (or whatever) if I don't want to. Simple - no magic involved, no special formula.
For instance, I decided about a month and a half ago that I was going to quit drinking for a little while. So when the beer ran out, I simply didn't buy anymore. Well ok, maybe I 'cheated' a little...but that's the point.. I can have a beer with my bagel and not end up drinking a 12 pack if I want. I allow myself a little SLACK in that respect. The taste of that beer with the bagel was appealing so i had a little. BFD. And ftr, I haven't had any more since then (that was like a week ago) not that it really would matter..I just haven't felt like it.
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Well, personally, I just never bought into the powerlessness doctrine in the first place. I know from my very earliest experience w/ alcohol that it makes me drunk. And I understand from only slightly later experience that once you've had a few, you're in no position to judge just how drunk you are. So, if I'm gonna drink at all, I either do it when I won't have to drive or make any important decisions or I limit myself to two. (I'm a very tiny little woman, 2 beers followed by an hour or so of water or tea and I'm good to drive) And like Frod says. If I'm drinking too much, I just quit going to be beer store. It was easier in Florida. Here in PA you either pay bar prices or you have to buy a case at a time. So I've had to invite 3 other drunks into the house to help make that work out. But it's just a matter of understanding how the stuff effects you and planning ahead not to make an ass of yourself.
Pot doesn't present even that minimal amount of management problem. Toke if it's convienient, don't if it's not.
Opiates, I just don't like them. I'm just weird that way. I have a few good friends who have been hooked before. None of them ever have recomended that I do the same or discarded as trivial the difficulty in weening down. But that's all it is. Whether you go to meetings and fill your head w/ parables and moral imperatives or not, the deal w/ opiate addiction is that you have to ween down, get dope sick and mean then do it again. Works the same w/ or w/o the meetings. Except, of course, if you buy into the program dogma, it's all or nothing, black or white, life or death. Plus you find yourself at odds w/ people who may actually have some good advice and support for you in that regard because you're essentially not allowed to entertain the notion of taking control of your own substance use by your own will.
And, quite honestly, if I had only to choose between social contact w/ active junkies and social contact w/ militant steppers, I'm hangin' w/ the junkies, no doubt! In my experience, they're just nicer, more intellectually honest and sincere people.
The only voluntary urine sample they'll get from me is a taste test
--Bumper Sticker
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Thanks guys for humoring me. I KNOW the question sounded crazy. Dragonfly, thanks for not attacking me. I just wanted to hear/read y'alls perspective without a lot of personal judgements getting thrown in. For the most part, I got that. Still alot of "you" statements, but I got a good picture.
You may not believe me, but I am sincerely trying to understand where y'all are coming from. The way many of you guys think about this issue makes as much sense to me as my way does to you. Just searching for common ground if it exists. (It may not).
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(http://http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y45/freefoodlady/ShadyGrove.jpg)
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LSD was the most horrible thing that ever happened to me, I guess until I met straight.
Sorry, I know...off the wall comment.
Where do you suggest I go if my falsehood breaks down. Here? :lol:
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On 2005-09-15 10:56:00, dragonfly wrote:
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This whole dialogue has me a little creeped out. It's like looking in to window of straight, seeing kids in there flailing away, waving at the window, "hey come on out, it's ok, it's over" and the kids look at you like your'e crazy and then share about the horrible man tempting them.
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It makes sense that me and shady and I would creep you out with our talk about NA/AA. We have been inlvoved with 12 step meetings for years... all of our talk about the steps probably reminds you of the last time that you were exposed to discussions about the steps...in that hell hole in Springfield
I think that it is tragic that many folks will only have negative associations about NA/AA and the steps...mainly because of their experience with str8. That is yet another horrible consequence of Str8.
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On 2005-09-15 11:10:00, the wet noodle wrote:
mainly because of their experience with str8. That is yet another horrible consequence of Str8.
[sigh] no, that's not it. My experience w/ Straight and The Seed and AA by way of my WWI age grandpa may have tipped me off to just exactly how militant this cult can be in the extreme. But it is current events that give me a negative view of the stepcult. And I've given you several examples. Now, why would you discard my answers to your question and, instead, go on believing that it's just 20+yo bitterness? I think that shows a lack of respect and intellectual honesty. And that, my friend, is one of the issues I have w/ the stepcult. Unless we mount an adequate challenge, they'll just go on compelling indoctrination through the courts and other public institutions and denying any wrongdoing on their own part; instead projecting blame on the critics. Lighthouses are more helpful then churches.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor
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On 2005-09-15 11:32:00, Antigen wrote:
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On 2005-09-15 11:10:00, the wet noodle wrote:
mainly because of their experience with str8. That is yet another horrible consequence of Str8.
[sigh] no, that's not it. My experience w/ Straight and The Seed and AA by way of my WWI age grandpa may have tipped me off to just exactly how militant this cult can be in the extreme. But it is current events that give me a negative view of the stepcult. And I've given you several examples. Now, why would you discard my answers to your question and, instead, go on believing that it's just 20+yo bitterness? I think that shows a lack of respect and intellectual honesty. And that, my friend, is one of the issues I have w/ the stepcult. Unless we mount an adequate challenge, they'll just go on compelling indoctrination through the courts and other public institutions and denying any wrongdoing on their own part; instead projecting blame on the critics. Lighthouses are more helpful then churches.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor
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[sigh] what YOU do not seem to get no matter how many times WE say it is that your examples have nothing to do with AA/NA. They are examples of people using the 12 steps for their own purposes (to make $)...
For the millionth time AA/NA takes no position on ANY outside issue...and does not endorse any treatment centers...not the good ones not the bad ones... AA/NA have nothing to do with ANY treatment centers... just because a treatment center endorses AA/NA and the 12 steps does not mean that AA/NA endorses the treatment center! THERE IS A HUUUGE DIFFERENCE THAT YOU DO NOT SEEM TO COMPREHEND
AA/NA are non-proft organizations...they exist only to save lives...
Treatment centers are in the business of making $$$$$$. Thus AA/NA DO NOT ENDORE THEIR ACTIVITY!!
This conversation is useless if you canot see the difference...
Maybe you should check out what the AA/NA traditions actually SAY before you pass judgment on AA/NA because of the actions of treatment centers that are out to make a profit.
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That's the friggen problem here. You believers go on and on about how good and noble and harmless your religion is. And you confuse critizism of coercion and frad w/ critizism of your voluntarily hanging out w/ a bunch of other believers. And it works just as well for your religion as it does for any other.
Got a problem w/ our foreign policy as regards Israel's problems? You antisemitic, Nazi loving monster! How dare you complain about American soldiers and cash investments in Israel's intrest!!
Got a problem w/ Teen Challenge or the Rebekah and Rolloff Homes or Abundant Life Academy? You heathen! You just hate Christians, that's all.
Well, as I've said numerous times already, I don't have a problem w/ your voluntarily hanging out w/ fellow believers; doesn't matter whether it's a belief in stepcraft or a belief in fairies or angels. I have a problem w/ people being coerced to participate. If ask for my opinion on the basic dogma, I'll give it to you. And you DID ask! If you don't want my opinion, well, don't ask for it. Simple, really.
But your postulate that coerced participation in stepcraft programs has nothing to do w/ stepcraft is pattently rediculous.
[Religion is] the daughter of hope and fear, explaining to ignorance the nature of the unknowable.
--Ambrose Bierce
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous
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Antigen
I don't think you are intellectually dishonest, unitelligent or mean. I DO think that you are simply misinformed about this issue.
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How am I misinformed? What, specifically, have I got wrong?
As democracy is perfected, the office of President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.
--H.L. Mencken
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On 2005-09-15 15:14:00, shady grove wrote:
"Antigen
I don't think you are intellectually dishonest, unitelligent or mean. I DO think that you are simply misinformed about this issue. "
ditto...
For someone who has dedicated her life to this issue...you really should learn the difference between treatment centers and AA/NA...
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On 2005-09-15 15:21:00, Antigen wrote:
"How am I misinformed? What, specifically, have I got wrong?As democracy is perfected, the office of President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.
--H.L. Mencken
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AA/NA is not the same as a treatment center...period.
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Ok, if it's not stepcraft practitioners promoting coerced participation in stepcraft, then who is it?
Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys
--P.J. O'Rourke
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On 2005-09-15 16:06:00, Antigen wrote:
"Ok, if it's not stepcraft practitioners promoting coerced participation in stepcraft, then who is it? "
They like to say "AA/NA doesn't endorse it, but individual NA/AA/Stepcult members might". What bullshit. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
Let's shout some slogans, then we'll have a song, followed by more Kool-Aid........
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Hello! Noodle, Shady? Where'd ya' go?
If XA has nothing to do w/ coerced participation in XA, then who the fuck is it and why are you allowing them to sully your good name like this?I believe that relgion is the belief in future life and in God. I don't believe in either. I don't believe in God as I don't believe in Mother Goose.
--Clarence Darrow, American lawyer
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You seem to have all the programmed lingo. Are you sure you weren't a staff member? Blah. Blah. Blah.
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[ This Message was edited by: Withdraw on 2005-09-22 22:56 ]
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I have never felt or considered myself powerless over anything but red tape and other people.
The only thing that I consider myself powerless over is my filipina's (http://http://www.filipinacupid.com/images/sexydress180_394jpg.jpg) tight pussy!
Sure, that hot young bitch costs me an arm and a leg, but she's MORE than worth it to me.
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I'm Here! I have to sleep and work sometime :smile:
Ok, I'll try to use your language to explain this.
XA has nothing to do with forced participation in XA. Who is responsible?..I don't know, I believe I asked you this earlier. I don't know why law enforcement began sending DUIs to XA meetings. My suspicion is now that it's an economical decision. Shut down detoxes and treatment centers (accept for the private ones-with their own funding-that have carte blanche to treat people as they see fit) and send them all to XA...rooms of people with no formal training in helping people detox.
Sully my good name? My name ain't in this. XAs do not take a stance on this at all. And there ain't nobody to stand up and say "stop". It's just a bunch of individuals giving there opinions, like me here.
Stepcraft/stepcult to use your clever terms (I really like these words, I don't know why) seems to you to mean ANYBODY talking about the 12 steps. But you really must learn to distinguish for-profit, business tag-alongs from the true not-for-profit organizations to speak about this intelligibly. This, I beleive is our only sticking point now, IMO.
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Antigen,
I just realized that we agree on more than I thought...
We all (Shady, You and I) agree that forced particpation in XA is BAD.
We (Shady and I) are just saying that XA is ALWAYS completely voluntary...but its "for profit" spin off's are not. some of these spin off's endorse XA...but XA does not endorse these spin offs.
You say that it doesn't matter b/c treatment centers are often run or endorsed by PEOPLE in XA... that is true...
But the problem is that XA does not have any leaders...there is no way to "call off the dogs"...I just show up to church basements a few times a week and share with a group... I have no power over fellow XA members
I will also agree that there are a lot of power hungry, facist, egocenterd XA members.... but once again I have no control over these folks...
My only power to help the siutation is to lead by example...and I do not endorse ANY form of forced endoctrintation into the steps... the steps simply do not work that way....so the point is moot..as we ALL know..anyone forced to work the steps...will not work the steps...so all of these people forcing folks to work the steps are misguided at best...or trying to make $ at the worst...either way forcing folks to work the steps doesn't work...and I (and Shady) are against it...
If you want help fighting some of these horrible abusive tratement centers...then let me know because I am willing to help in any way I can...
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Well, I think ya'll are being extremely niave about this. You should look into the organizations and PACs who have lobbied for forced drug screening and forced treatment for the past couple of decades. And look specifically at what kinds of arguments they have used to convince policy makers to coalesce. It's just exactly the same script that you use to defend the stepcult; it saves lives (where's the proof? your personal belief or faith is not proof); failure to force these creatons into XA indoctrination (the only way, according to the proponants) is tantamount to a death sentence; etc.
You said yourself you think our ctiticism, or even critical discussion of the stepcult might be killing people. And I'm surprised you said it, too. Not because I didn't think you'd buy in on that level. I think you've both bought in hook, line and sinker. But because you're both very intelligent people and pretty keen on the opposing case and I just thought you'd know better than to try it in this venue.
Behold! The power of groupthink to cloud your good judgement.
But that's just the sort of thinking that you and the stepcults promote and very self rightiously defend. And it's just the type of argument the politicos find so compelling. No, it's not the money. Trust me, they're making it hand over fist just as they always have. See, with this kind of faith they can do all sorts of horrible things to people w/ the leave of their own concience.
But you say "No! It's not XA, it's not XA!.... ok, well, maybe it is, but don't ask me to do anything about it. Just don't you go around saying out loud that it is XA doing these things, even though it is. You might kill somebody!"
I give up. You're right. We're never going to agree till you go out and acquire some kind, enjoy it and discover that you're not really powerless. Just one note of caution. Before you do that, make sure you've dispelled the very dangerous belief that just one drink, just one toke, just one pill will set you on an inexorable path to death and distruction. THAT is a powerful lie that can ruin a person.
You know, too many weirdos out there. At least with you people I know WHY you are weird!!!
Kady
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Your suggestion is I smoke dope?
Ok, antigen, I TOTALLY get where you're coming from. But you are misquoting and misconstruing. Your are double-speaking and back-pedaling.
Unfortunatley, you are doing exactly what you accuse us of.
But you're right...this ain't going nowhere.
PS- Since you've shared so much with us, I'll tell you that it's been months since I've been to a meeting. I am not concerned that I will use drugs or die. But I do feel there is something I need that is missing.
I'm done.
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On 2005-09-16 08:23:00, Antigen wrote:
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But you say "No! It's not XA, it's not XA!.... ok, well, maybe it is, but don't ask me to do anything about it. Just don't you go around saying out loud that it is XA doing these things, even though it is. You might kill somebody!" "
That is not quite what I said Antigen...I said that XA is ALWAYS voluntary...there are just some FOLKS in XA that have other ideas...that is a big difference... comparing me to those folks is pretty unfair...I have no control over them... but I CAN say that the XA program specifically states that it must be a voluntary step...something that some folks in the treatment industry do not understand...or do not care about b/c they are after $
There no leaders in XA we are just a bunch of ordinary folks who meet in church basements a few times a week...
As for my other beliefs about you saying bad things about XA and its harmfull effects...well...I am done with that tact...we will just agree to disagree...
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On 2005-09-16 08:23:00, Antigen wrote:
"I give up. You're right. We're never going to agree till you go out and acquire some kind, enjoy it and discover that you're not really powerless. Just one note of caution. Before you do that, make sure you've dispelled the very dangerous belief that just one drink, just one toke, just one pill will set you on an inexorable path to death and distruction. THAT is a powerful lie that can ruin a person."
Don't be a druggie friend Antigen :smokin: I have no problem with others smoking up... but to tell me to smoke up and that I am not powerless...that is just silly...you know nothing about me or my story...
I have no problem with you smokin up....why do you care if I do not? You say that you don't care...but you seem pretty threatened by folks who identify as addicts...why is that?
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okay, i'll bite. what's your story?
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On 2005-09-16 17:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"okay, i'll bite. what's your story?"
My name's Wet Noodle, and I'm an addict......
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Will the real wet noodle please stand up?
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I got a lot out of this rap. I'm going to write about it in my MI tonight.
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On 2005-09-16 18:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I got a lot out of this rap. I'm going to write about it in my MI tonight."
Don't forget your good points :razz:
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I'm gonna set a goal to relate in every rap tomarrow.
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thirsty? :em:
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Hey Kool-Aid!!!! Did you bring my NA Basic Text? Or maybe a picture of Bill W.? Do you have any Jim Jones flavored stuff tonight?
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On 2005-09-16 08:33:00, shady grove wrote:
"Your suggestion is I smoke dope?
It couldn't hurt. Try it, you might become obsessed with it!!
PS- Since you've shared so much with us, I'll tell you that it's been months since I've been to a meeting. I am not concerned that I will use drugs or die. But I do feel there is something I need that is missing.
That thing that's missing? It's called marijuana!! :smokin:
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[ This Message was edited by: Withdraw on 2005-09-22 22:57 ]
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Ilene with black curly hair ??
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[ This Message was edited by: Withdraw on 2005-09-22 22:57 ]
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I.G. was a friend of mine. i once went to her house up around Chads' Ford, PA but in DE.
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[ This Message was edited by: Withdraw on 2005-09-22 22:57 ]
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On 2005-09-16 08:35:00, the wet noodle wrote:
I said that XA is ALWAYS voluntary...there are just some FOLKS in XA that have other ideas...
How is anyone to make the distinction between XA and those FOLKS in XA?Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.
George Washington
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On 2005-09-16 23:09:00, Antigen wrote:
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On 2005-09-16 08:35:00, the wet noodle wrote:
I said that XA is ALWAYS voluntary...there are just some FOLKS in XA that have other ideas...
How is anyone to make the distinction between XA and those FOLKS in XA?Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.
George Washington
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I am done with this conversation. We are never going to agree on this... Against my better judgment I will respond to you one last time...
Saying that XA should be held responsible for the actions of all of its members is the same as saying that all christians (which I am not)should be held responsible for the actions of George Bush (who claims to be a christian) or that all Boy Scouts should be held responsible for the actions of all other boy scouts...
I have a challenge for you Antigen...find me ONE of these people who claim to be speaking/acting ON BEHALF of XA...
The XA proram (Steps/literature/speakers) does not condone or endorse ANY non-voluntary endoctrination... period...
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See, nobody said anything about holding any individuals accountable. We're just talking about how the cult works.
The plans of true believers for our lives may well be better than our own when judged against some abstract official standard, but to deny people their personal struggles is to render existence absurd.
John Taylor Gatto