Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Straight, Inc. and Derivatives => Topic started by: starry-eyed pirate on September 12, 2005, 01:02:00 PM
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i' jus' been thinkin'... It's taken me about 4 months(on top of years of meditation) to even calm down enough to realize the crimes i committed, fuck i can hardly talk about it; my participation in Str8.
Yeah i misbehaved and ran away and talked out in group and punched 5th phasers in the face and all that shit, but i broke under their weight and after i been there so long i began to see what they wanted me to see. It was i who was finally made weak but i turned that weakness to strength when i apologized. Whether i am forgiven or not by apologizin' i acknowledge my role and claim responsibility for my crimes. This has caused a fundamental shift in my perspective.
i am grateful for you. PEACE
[ This Message was edited by: starry-eyed pirate on 2005-09-12 10:05 ]
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Pirate---what "crimes" are you responsible for while in Straight?
I understand the idea of owning your actions, taking responsibility, apologies, etc....but if you mean "crimes" while in straight, then how can they be crimes if all thoughts and actions in straight were all under constant coercion in various forms? Know what I mean?....like did you (or I for that matter) every really have a choice? The consequences were so severe that our thoughts and actions were forced upon us and compliance meant acting and thinking straight's way for survival.
If we really ever had choices, then I would agree completely with you. Dont get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with you actually...its just the idea of being remotely responsible for actions and thoughts while in straight baffles me. ::rainbow::
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Read this Starry-eyed pirate , I typed it all out for you, because I wanted to share it. With out you , I could not experience myself as Who I Really Am. I could not be the up nor the down of it, the good or the bad of it, the left or the right of it.... The God in me sees the God in all of us.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... &forum=7&1 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=11686&forum=7&1)
I hope you understand what it means, it helps me remember Who I Am , I hope it does the same for you and who ever takes the time to read it.
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Hey anon---got anything that explains how the victim could possibly be the villan?.....that was my question to pirate...
And anon----great post---It made perfect sense to me---my own thinking is very close to this and reminded me of one thing I had forgotten---BUT I just can't forgive straight yet---maybe someday...
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I simply mean , it is possible that the vicyim could have been the villian in another life. If you believe that kind of thing. Believeing it for myself allows me a better understanding of why I do certian things of have certian things done to me.
It could be true , or it could simply be a copping mechanism. Either way it allows me a greater understnding of myself and all the rolls I can manifest here over and over again.
I'd like to think by learning to fully understand myself I can evolve to the next higher vibration.~ Bliss if you will.
Which is far better and self fulfilling than feeling hate and despise for others who may have or may not have done me wrong. This line of thinking allows me to take responsibility for my actions w/o harboring the deep guilt felt by so many.
I can not achieve this state of being often, which tells me I have ALOT of ~ growing/learning yet to do. That is what makes me human and separerates me from God as I choose interpret it as being.
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Sorry :???:
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Anon....
I understand why the reincarnation idea makes sense to some people, therefore will not disagree with you on it. I realize this is your opinion and are entitled to it...but let's just say that in my opinion, I think this is one thing that no human being is capable of knowing whether it exists or not...in my mind....only god can know this....and yeah I have trouble with the higher vibration idea too...(I have researched both these ideas in the past) but that's just my take on it...just so you know where I'm coming from.
BUT I fully agree how important it is to let go of hate (even though I fail often), to fully understanding myself so I can be a better person, taking resposibility for MY actions (NOT others actions), etc. Maybe my question was not clear....let me try to restate it....how can one be both a victim and villian at the same time and moment (while in straight)? Clearly in our lives we can be a victim in one instance then a villian in the next instance, but simultaneously? Maybe I misinterpret pirate's post, which is possible.
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i don' mean crimes in a legal sense jus' crimes because i allowed myself to become an oppressor.
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I'm not sure how to explain it, But in situations like Straight, I believe we were ALL the victim and villian at the same instant. Or maybe it's which one of those an individual chooses to live from at that moment. I do know for sure that we were all of that tho.
Does that mean I am able to always forgive ? NOPE, my forgiveness fluctuates, from fully understanding to complete hatered. But that is my process, and I must take responsibility for it, because I too often disagree and therefore hurt others w/ my opinion. I am never sorry ( like in an apoligetic way )If I know I have acted from a mature self rightous honest way. However I can be Sorry , in a way that I feel sorrow the one I am hurting does not understand why.
Never did I say that this is the end all be all. But I must look at it as One possibility.
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[ This Message was edited by: Withdraw on 2005-09-22 23:11 ]
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Dragonfly said--------"We did this to survive, maybe not physically but to survive as sane humans, we chose abuse over anililation, not physical but ego aniliation. So yeah we can feel guilty, but how many have willingly chosen to give up that? Three or four people in the history of humanity?
Pirate has said things to me in this vein, that if he had been christ or buddha he could have survived with out being broken, I think thats what you meant any way."-----------
Yeah I agree that we adopted straight thinking (not necessarily realizing it at the time) to survive but in a sense....isnt this simply acting on survival instincts and having our minds twisted by straight rather than conscious decision making? I guess I dont mean to totally eliminate "choice" because theoretically all in straight had "free will." But how much free will did we really have? We were children...like for me I was in a state of constant terror....when confronted for so-called "erroneus thinking" or "not admitting to drug use", etc., afterward I would seriously question my own thinking & feel extremely confused...and after awhile....after more confrontation, I came to believe (incorrectly) my thinking must be wrong and I must have used drugs because surely I wouldnt be confronted, belittled unless they are right and I'm wrong....
That was my thinking in the beginning...I dont remember ever really making choices(although maybe I did and just dont remember).....From my view now looking back, I beleive my mind (through the various abuses) became twisted into straight's thinking, because of the abuses NOT of my own will. If we were adults at the time...I think choice may have been more likley....because we would have had longer to form our own beliefs based on more life experiences.
I have another question...is it even remotely realistic to expect any that any child could have survived straight without being broken to some degree? I would agree that both Christ and Buddha are role models and that its a great idea to try to follow their example....but God as I understand him, does not expect us to be perfect....and to me, to think we have to be just like those two is setting ourselves up as humans for a lot of unnecessary self inflicted guilt.....
This is heavy topic...and its a little difficult to express and understand each other's viewpoints...so I think I am really asking lots of questions to understand where pirate (and now you dragonfly) are coming from and understand the logic or principles behind it. I hope I am making sense.... ::rainbow::
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"i allowed myself to become an oppressor." -pirate
did you really? then you do suck, and get the fuck out of here! maybe you really are more special than the rest of us, because not only do you practice Forgiveness, you also were invulnerable to thought reform!
which will it be, make up your mind. did you "allow yourself" to be a fifth-phase child abuser? or were you caught in a chinese finger trap. one or the other. quit kickin' pebbles, kid.
"Or maybe it's which one of those an individual chooses to live from at that moment." -Anonymous
so, you are saying minor children locked in a thought reform institution that practiced physical torture had a choice about whether to be a victim or a villain?
or, are you, like pirate, just not thinking?!? one or the other! they broke our spirits! they made us drink cool-aid! or, they recruited us as willing ROTC's for the drug nazis and Straight was just a boot camp!
i understand though, i have said "sorry" too. but if someone were to get on this board right now and give me any kind of a hard time about what i acted like in Straight, they could fuck themselves to the next county. because they would readily have turned me in if i had ever tried to discuss copping out with any of them. stupid fucks. or not stupid fucks, just some kids just like me in a real weird place. i wonder which it is? should i punch them when i see them, because they were willingly choosing to be assholes to me to get graduated? or were they by that point so insane and despairing and destroyed they had no moral idea that what they were doing was wrong? i doubt any of us knew at the time that we were being trained to thought reform our peers. but maybe everyone else got some notice about that on their intake day.
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Pirate--- Or could it be that our minds in straight were twised without our knowledge, so our actions (oppression) was really straight perpetuating the abuse BY Twisting our minds instead of what you said ---------"i don' mean crimes in a legal sense jus' crimes because i allowed myself to become an oppressor."
I'm not saying I'm right our wrong, I dont know---I just have theories at this point----but I thinks this really hits on the brainwashing thing and I struggle to understand just like everyone else. You know---how much is a brainwashed child really responsible for while in the midst of continuous brainwashing? I think its a good question.
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On 2005-09-12 18:21:00, Nonconformistlaw wrote:
"Pirate--- Or could it be that our minds in straight were twised without our knowledge, so our actions (oppression) was really straight perpetuating the abuse BY Twisting our minds instead of what you said ---------"i don' mean crimes in a legal sense jus' crimes because i allowed myself to become an oppressor."
I'm not saying I'm right our wrong, I dont know---I just have theories at this point----but I thinks this really hits on the brainwashing thing and I struggle to understand just like everyone else. You know---how much is a brainwashed child really responsible for while in the midst of continuous brainwashing? I think its a good question.
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Stockholm Syndrome. Think of Patty Hearst for example regarding villan or victim.
It's funny because I say I forgave some people for what they said to me while in straight and I even talk to one of the people today. However, I still feel angry when I think of specific incidents and maybe I really have not forgiven them since I still have these feelings.
I tell myself we were all just victims who coped the best way we knew how as kids and it helps me gain some perspective on the situation. The Lord of the Flies is a must read IMO to see how many victims are eventaully forced into a role of oppressor by blind coherion or necessity.
I don't have the answers because if I did I would not be spending a large portion of my time searching these boards to fill whatever void in me that place created. A part of me also feels like I would be weak to forgive certain things that happened to me before, during, and after straight. I'm not willing to give anyone a free pass and say it was okay to take advantage of me. I don't think it's right or wrong to forgive in this situation. Whatever helps the person cope.
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[ This Message was edited by: Withdraw on 2005-09-22 23:11 ]
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brainwashed and not guilty, or in control of your actions and guilty? who knows? and when it comes down to it, what difference does it really make now, after all these years? should i be sorry? let me ponder this for the rest of my life.
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That whole line of thought pushes nearly all my buttons and triggers and red flags and sirens and whistles.
holy fuck, well said there grasshopper. couldn't have said it any better and who the fuck am i. you read my mind to be sure. FUCK hinduistic caste bullshit. Next life, my ASS. fuck that.
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dragonfly said--------we did this to survive ,maybE niot phytsicAl7y bvut to survive 4s sane humqans, we chose aubse over anm1lilatoi0n, not phsy1cal but ego AniliatIon.. nso yah w3 Ca|| feel gUilty, but how man yahve williNgly cHosnet o give Up that?????? thr33 ro fou rdewd zin rhe histroy of humanity??????????????????? pir8 has said thinzg To me on this vien, thaT if he Ajd been christ or bdudha he cuold jhave survived //ith out b1neg borKen, i think thazt wh4t u m3ant any way~~~~~ "------------ yeahi agree that we adopted straight thinking( not necwssarily realoziNg it at the time) to surv1ve but in a sense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!11~ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ~~~~~ LLOLO 1SNT THIS ISMPLY ACTINGF ONJ USRV1VALK INSTINCTS AND AHVING ORUM INDS tWISTED BY STRAIGHT RATHER THAN CONSCI0US DEVCISiIN MAKING???!?!?!??!?!? i guess i dont me4n To totallly e1muin8 "choice" becuz tehreotciaLly all in straight had "frEe willl !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111~~~~~~ " but hwom uCh fre3 will did we rea7ly haev?!??!?!?!??!?!?!? we were childr3n!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!~~~~~ OLOLOOLOLOLOLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1~~~~~~ olololololololololol~ lololoolololoo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1~~~ !!!!!!!!!~~~~~ lick for me i wads In ast4te p fconst4nt tariorr // // ,, whe|| c0mfronted for so-called etrorneus thinking ro not adnmitTiNg t0 drug use", 3tc olololol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11~~~~ , afterward i would seriously queStio n//y own thinking &f eel extreme7y confused lololololl !!!!!!!!!!11~~~~~~~ and 4fter wajil3... ,,, /// !!!!!!!!!!!!!!1~~~ achk he palnnEt becuz you r lanme after moree conforntation, i cam3 T0 beleive (incorrectly) my Thinking must b3 qoRng and i must Ahve used drugs bercuz surely i wouldnt be ocNfonrted,b 3kitttled unless trhey are right and 1'm \////\////ronG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 olololololol !!!!!!!!!!!!111~~~~~~ OOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO.. // OLOLLOLOLOLOL~ ololoolololooo~ that was my thjinking in eth beginning// . OOLOOO!!!!!11~~~~ I D0NT REMEMBBAr EV4R RALLY MAKInG CHOICESA(7THOUGH M4YBE I DID AND JUST DONT REMEMB4R)/ OLLOL !!!!!~~~~ OLOLOLOLO~~~ . lolooloololol .. FORMYM VEIW NIOW2 LOOKINGB AX0R, I BELIEVEW JMY MIND (THROUGH TEH VAR1OUSA BUSES) BDECAMe TWSITED INTO STRAIGHTS THINKIUnG, BECUZ F TEH SBUSES NOT 0F MY WON Wi7L... Lifg ew were adultrs at eh timne~~~~~ , LOLLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111 i thunk choice maay ahve been mroe likley!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11 ~~ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1~~~~~ OOLLOL !!!!!!!1 becuz we would ahve hda l0nger to fdorm ouro n beleifz base don more lkife exper3incez!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1~~~~~~ lololool~~ i have another question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 OLLLLOOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11 ~~~~~~ lololololololol !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! is it Even remotely realistic to expect any that any ch1ld cou7d h4vw Survived stra1ght iwthout bineg broken to some degree?!?? i w0uld agree that both chriost and budda r orle omdels and that its a grate iud3a to try to fol;lo tehir exa,p;le~ I wil7 ahck/// !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1~ olololololololol~ , OOOL!!!!!!11~~~~~ buT god as i unferstAnd him, d03s not expect us to be perf3ct!!!!!1~~~~~~ !!!!!!111~~ OLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOL!!!!!!!!!!11 OLOLOLOLLOLOLOL~~ / and to me, o think we have to eb jusT lick th0se tw0 is settng ourselv3z up as hum4ns for al ot of unnec3ssary self Ifnlicyed gu17t.. ... !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11~~~~~~ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1~~~~~~ ~~~~ THIS SI HEAVY T0PIC, ~~~ .. and its a little difficult to express and unddarstand eadch oteeHr"z veiwpointz ololololoo !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11~ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11~~ os i think i a// realLy asking7oTz of qiuestIons to undarsand whar3 pirate (4nd mnow u drago||gly) ar3 c0ming from and undrstand the logic ro princ1ples behiudn it~~~~ i hope i aM makoing sense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11 !!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!111~~~~~~ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1~~~~~~
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considering i didn't even wanna fucking be there when i was put in i can't say that i feel that bad about too much that i did there. but that's just me. i have what you could call a cast-iron pesonality. lots of metal in my chart. i don't waste too much time thinking, i just act. shoot first, ask questions later. wtf is a nigger supposed to do in a situation like str8 anyway? contemplate their fucking navel? give me a fucking brick.
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but maybe everyone else got some notice about that on their intake day.
:nworthy: :nworthy: :grin: :grin:
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i'm jus' sorry to anyone i hurt. It wasn't my choice but i didn't know how to suffer.
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alright, alright...ENOUGH already. You are forgiven. :lol:
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FUCK. :roll:
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sorry, man....but someone had to say it.
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[ This Message was edited by: Withdraw on 2005-09-22 23:11 ]
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You guys are real deep lately. I haven't had the time to get this deep in a while, and I'm not sure I'm smart enough.
I disagree w/ the anon. I don't believe there is any fence to get off. It is NOT black or white, nothing is. We were victims turned into perpetrators...that's how straight worked. We were trapped in an environment where the only way to survive was to betray each other. That's where the damage comes from.
Yes, maybe we're not responsible, but it does feel like shit. I do have some regrets even though I was 15 at the time.
I was a classic blob. Did it for like 20 months. Actually called "pud" back then. Never wanted to misbehave b/c it interfered with my hippie persona, and b/c I was scared shitless of being restrained. I used to punch MYSELF in the face, and punch the walls, the floor. Digging on the pain.
But occasionally I would decide to "work". And this would mean playing the game, which I sucked at. I have some people to whom I owe apologies.
I liked the story. We are all from the same light so there is nothing to forgive. Everything is an oppurtunity to learn and grow. We set up our obstacles so that we may have experiences we need.
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I typed out the forgivness story .. And if you think for 1 second I am in some organazation.. YOU ARE WRONG. I do not follow anyones beliefs, I follow my own innate ability to use my imagination, I think all things are possibilities. So if you think by my desire to seek answers I look everywhere...is a bad thing, Im sorry. I like to be as infomed about the world we live in as possible. I dont believe anything in peticular, because I don't think that is required for a happy peaceful life. I do however love to learn about myself and others.
I don't normally post Anon, I did then because I am unknowledgeable about copyright laws, and I was publically typing out a best selling book written by someone else. Because I wanted to bring another point of view about forgiveness to us. Not to make anyone believe in it, cause I dont care what you all believe .. I offered it as something that gives me comfort, because it is one of many possibilities in this conscienceness we live in.
AS far as Jesus goes.... I think he was probably a well thought man , whom people may or may not have followed. I in no way believe the whole Bible theroy..
SO pretty much Dragonfly, if you meant that about me , You Sir are incorrect. :tup:
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Same Anon as the forgiveness story, BTW guys... all those Anons are not me... now don't go and get those bagged heads confused ... If you think they are all the same.. You Sirs are incorrect :wink:
If its me, I will plainly state that
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I'd say your sirens are in functional working order, dragonfly. :tup:
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On 2005-09-13 09:33:00, shady grove wrote:
We are all from the same light so there is nothing to forgive.
Hmm...
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Anon, I'm really glad you posted the story. People have chimed in about their feelings about it, which is good.
For me, it reminds me that today, I have a choice on how I view the next person that crosses me. I can choose to see them as another: child of god, being of light, forgivable person, ect. I don't have to hate them.
Yes the whole "next life" stuff is pretty cosmic, but cool to ponder.
Dragonfly,
I totally get the red flags. Fine line between forgiving the past and allowing it to recur. As victims we had no control over what they did to us, and fuck if we're gonna just sit back and let it happen again.
I think those messages (flags, sirens) are good and they belong there. They are telling you something.
Thanks
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True that. Reality is never as simple as theory.
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On 2005-09-12 16:46:00, Nonconformistlaw wrote:
"Anon....
I understand why the reincarnation idea makes sense to some people"
Only the Red Temple Cult knows for sure, and they ain't telling (unless, of course, you make a large financial contribution to them).
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On 2005-09-13 14:42:00, shady grove wrote:
"For me, it reminds me that today, I have a choice on how I view the next person that crosses me. I can choose to see them as another: child of god, being of light, forgivable person, ect. I don't have to hate them."
Oh please. You mean you can choose to drink cool aid.
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Anon, I suppose that was meant to mean that you think I am a brainwashed cult-follower. This got started on another post.
Anyway dragon. I think I'm following.
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