Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: FueLaw on September 11, 2005, 10:08:00 AM
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Unfortunately the postings about physical abuse have been taken out of context. I am not trying to say that the physical abuse of the kids in the program was a cornerstone of the program. In addition I am not insinuating that it occured on a regular basis. However, I am saying that it happend. Any former staff member who denies this is simply not telling the truth.
From time to time kids would try to bolt. The were physically restrained and in some cases literally dragged back to the group or to the offices and then to the group. I can remember seeing kids get half way across the race track, at Tropical Park race track, and then dragged back forcefully.
Other times kids parents were brought in to beat or disipline their kids. This happend in the offices away from the group. As I indicated in other post because I was a small guy I would be assigned to bathroom sign in, as oppossed to sitting at a regular security post or door, and I could hear, not see, the beatings. There were blood curdling screams coming from the offices.
On other occassions staff members simply lost their cool and racked up a kid. I am not saying they broke any bones or caused permanent physical damage. In my particular case I was physically tackled to the ground,held down by Robert Chun and a staffer named Mike, and had my hair cut, while screaming, crying and kicking, by a female staff member. This occured at Tropical Park. Chun also knocked the crap out of me a few times at SR 84. John Underwood also would do crap like twist me by the ears , or grab me by the back of the neck, and physically drag me from the group. He never punched me in the mouth or broke any bones.
Having said all that, it is basically irrelevant to this discussion. The real harm of the Seed, Straight and others that followed was the psychological harm. This was a thousand times worse than being slapped around a little or being bounced off a few walls. The psychological damage last forever. That is what draws people to this website.
The whole notion or premise of the Seed and other copy cat programs is so ill concieved, in terms of the pyschological dimensions, that it is mind boggling. The "one size fits all" or "this is the way to straighten out kids/young adults" approach is a farce. Everybody is different but the Seed didnt take that approach. It was a "CULT" in every sense of the word. Everybody had to buy into to the same shit or face the fury of the staff and group. As a 14-15 year old, my age when in the program, this had a dramtic and profound effect on my life. Being in the program over a year didnt help much either. Why Underwood and others cant see it is beyond comprehension.
While I realize it will never happen, but I would bet a legitimate psychological study would reveal a high level of some kind of post traumatic stress symtoms among the young participants of the Seed. In other words alot of the psychological damage didnt rear its ugly head until years later. The participants probably needed more help after they completed the program than prior to their entry in it.
[ This Message was edited by: on 2005-09-11 07:11 ]
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Thanks for posting that, FueLaw.
One other thing I've been curious about for years. I remember talk of this. But, of course, I was very young and not directly involved. Does anyone else remember the (likely short lived) practice of snagging potential intakes off the street? The way I remember it, it went something like this. A kid would be compelled to rat out his or her friends in rap. A goon squad would be organized to get details, like favorite hang outs or best places and times to catch the unsuspecting inductee when vulnerable. Then the squad would go out and snag the kid off the street, brow beat a confession out of them and then call the parents saying "Mrs. Smith, we have your son Johnny here. He's told us he's on drugs and wants help getting off them. Would you come down and sign some papers?"
Anybody else remember anything about that? For the community to have 10% to 25% of its men unable to vote or unable to access credit or other privileges of citizenship for the rest of their lives in some states creates a permanently diminished
group within society.
Jeremy Travis, Urban Institute
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David M... and John T... and the rest of them did exactly this to me. This is how I woundup in the Seed.
Never underestimate the power of the status quo...America's schools are part of government, subject to public whim and will. By and large, we have the kind of schools that people want. While they acknowledge the need for improvement, in other people's schools, most American are reasonably content with their own.
--Former public school superintendent Ronald J. Perry, 1992.
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"They will not bury us for this, I'm fighting the Red Skull, everyday"
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Ginger,
It seems to me that the kids parents had a role in that too. In other words a kid would come in and rat out his friends. (This was all done in the name of honesty which was the first and most important rule) Then the kids parent would go talk to the druggie kids parents and the some of the friends wound up on the front row. The prospective kids parent would be encouraged to come to open meetings and they would be taken by all the testimonials of the newcomers and then put their kids in. This is one of the ways the Seed increased their enrollment.
I dont have any first hand info on the goon squads. I do remember hearing similar stories from the time period between 1972-1974, which was a big growth period for the Seed.
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yes it happened in St Pete as well. In fact, it was witnessed by Teachers and students at one St Pete School and the girl was actually harmed as she was snatched by a group of seed parents and dragged kicking and screaming FROM SCHOOL PROPERTY direct to the seed. Art Barker disavovowed the practice in a quote to the paper.
Fuelaw, I never saw a staff member actually hit a kid, but I saw them throw kids to the floor when they tried to escape, and the practice of bringing parents into the back offices to smack around misbehaviors was documented and a well known practice in the early seed, at least in st pete.
keeping kids captive was a real integral part of the early seed, and to keep any human captive requires physical threats and restraints. Those that deny this occured are denying reality.
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FueLaw, I'm not talking about when the parents are involved. That's still gooing on very openly. There's a whole "teen escort" side of the industry these days. No more having volunteer parents do the dirty work. You can now call an 800#, givve them your credit card info and have a couple of ex marines or other tough guys extract your troubling kid from their bed at night.
I'm talking about a scenareo where the parents were the last to know. Maybe it only happened once, if at all. Maybe not. That's what I'm trying to figure out. But I clearly remember talk of ending that policy due to public criticism.
Anybody else from the S. Andrews bldg remember anything like that?I don't think we're here for anything, we're just products of evolution. You can say 'Gee, your life must be pretty bleak if you don't think there's a purpose' but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
--Dr. James Watson, American biologist
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On 2005-09-11 10:08:00, Antigen wrote:
"Thanks for posting that, FueLaw.
One other thing I've been curious about for years. I remember talk of this. But, of course, I was very young and not directly involved. Does anyone else remember the (likely short lived) practice of snagging potential intakes off the street? The way I remember it, it went something like this. A kid would be compelled to rat out his or her friends in rap. A goon squad would be organized to get details, like favorite hang outs or best places and times to catch the unsuspecting inductee when vulnerable. Then the squad would go out and snag the kid off the street, brow beat a confession out of them and then call the parents saying "Mrs. Smith, we have your son Johnny here. He's told us he's on drugs and wants help getting off them. Would you come down and sign some papers?"
Anybody else remember anything about that? For the community to have 10% to 25% of its men unable to vote or unable to access credit or other privileges of citizenship for the rest of their lives in some states creates a permanently diminished
group within society.
Jeremy Travis, Urban Institute
"
That sounds legally questionable - as in kidnapping.
I seem to remember that Synanon was big on goon squads,
I think that they were called "Imperial Marines".
I don't know about new intakes but they were sent
after (adult) "splitees" and Synanon critics.
They cut the rattle off a rattlesnake once and
put it in the mailbox of a lawyer who was trying
to help someone get out. Bureaucracy defends the status quo long past the time when the quo has lost its status
--Laurence J. Peter
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which brings us full circle back to the synanon/seed talks.
There is much commonality in language between the two places, in spite of John U's assertion there was no synanon influence. Some of this is for sure because of the connection between synanon (sins anon?), the seed and AA. However, Splitees? In the seed they were splits. Newcomers, oldcomers...rap sessions...many many phrases seem to have come directly from the synanon.
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-----quote------
"There was a rehab in Wilton Manors, Spectrum House, that was loosely modeled after Synanon. The program was inspired by Alcoholics Anonymous, modified by Art, (with the help and suggestions of others such as Dave R., [who did have a degree in psychology], his wife and others whose names allude me), to better fit the drug culture. Initially it was informal rap sessions with a dozen or so participants." ---J.U.'s first post
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Have I misunderstood what John is saying here? He does seem to be implying some type of connection between Art and a program modeled after Synanon: "Spectrum House, that was loosely modeled after Synanon. The program was inspired by Alcoholics Anonymous, modified by Art,"
Sounds like the Seed was a sort of mix of Synanon and AA given a unique twist by Art. Given this beginning, I don't see where a more direct connection is necessary to explain the similarities. No one seriously questions whether Synanon was a cult and this alone gives the Seed a cult-like connection, regardless of what we might think of AA.
Or is John simply mentioning another rehab located nearby? If so, it is confusing to go on to speak of "the program..."I got the impression that he was saying that Art modified this pre-existing Spectrum House rehab. I agree that the similarities are too apparent to chalk up to coincidence. Maybe some of the other founders John mentioned were impressed with Synanon and advised Art to model his program after it. I wonder if we'll ever know.
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On 2005-09-11 10:08:00, Antigen wrote:
A kid would be compelled to rat out his or her friends in rap. A goon squad would be organized to get details, like favorite hang outs or best places and times to catch the unsuspecting inductee when vulnerable. Then the squad would go out and snag the kid off the street, brow beat a confession out of them and then call the parents saying "Mrs. Smith, we have your son Johnny here. He's told us he's on drugs and wants help getting off them. Would you come down and sign some papers?"
For the record...even as F***ed-up "druggies" neither my brother nor myself ever "ratted out" anyone! I always believed it should be a personal "choice" (as it was mine) of an individual or parent to enroll or enlist in the Seed. I had more integrity than that and opted to speak w/ my friends directly to share my experience and hope. Some came on their own, others did not. Sorry, I know many of you did not have an option.
On another note, last night I just watched the movie "Thirteen" and if ANY of you doubt the condition "I" was in when I "volunteered to enlist", PLEASE watch and know I went quite a bit further than the cast in the movie! Albeit, filmed for the 2000 something generation, the movie is a great depiction of peer pressure at "13" - whether it be in the 70's or later. Families were way dysfunctional long before those of you who think the Seed messed 'em up!! Get with it!!
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Well, unlike you Robin my parents at the direction of st Pete Staff went on an active campaign to enroll all my friends. their parents were invited over and we had to come in the room and give our "drug list" and then admit to doing drugs with their kids.
Keep in mind that I was 14 about to go into high school, and that these were the kids in my neighborhood.
Integrity? Hell, there was no choice in the matter...
Hey Robin...lookie here...real exchange going on!
:grin:
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I "ratted out" my old girlfriend and got her into the Seed.
At the time I looked at it like I got her started on drugs maybe I could help her get off them. I think thats exactly what I told her parents too.
She did thank me a year later.
Shes moved on. I have not seen her in 30 years.
I don't hear her wining on this site.
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On 2005-09-14 05:14:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
Shes moved on. I have not seen her in 30 years.
I wouldn't be quoting her then if I were you. Have you considered the possability that she was kissing your ass, telling you what you needed to hear so you wouldn't report her and get her started over? "I predict, Sir, that you will die either by hanging or of some vile disease."
"That all depends, sir, upon whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
--Disraeli to Gladstone
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Umm...well, after my brother got me to go in, I tried to get me old friends to also. Consequently, I lost them. The Seed called them my "old druggie friends," but some of them would have been life-long friends I now believe. Most are successful, interesting people. Only one became a stone-cold druggie, went to prison, etc.
Most damaging, I didn't talk to my own sister for seven years, except to tell her what a fuck up she was.
So I see this as abusive.
Robin, the movie Thirteen is very instructive. I hit some low points but perhaps not that dramatic. However, the Seed did not give me the tools I use today. For instance, honesty. The Seed allowed only partial, 'acceptable' honesty and I think that is a problem. Perhaps it was not that way for you, but you left on your own. I stuck around.
Walter
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Antigen,
Please. Yes this was long after she graduated her program. She no longer even went to the seed any longer. You may hate the seed, but everyone does not look at things the way you do.
I resent even having to explain that.
Please Don't tell me who I should or shouldn't quote.
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On 2005-09-13 13:19:00, marshall wrote:
Have I misunderstood what John is saying here?......He does seem to be implying some type of connection between Art and a program modeled after Synanon: "Spectrum House, that was loosely modeled after Synanon. The program was inspired by Alcoholics Anonymous, modified by Art,"
Or is John simply mentioning another rehab located nearby?
he was just mentioning that there was a synanon based rehab in the area, but that the seed was not one. I know this from my conversation with him even tho I understand the post was a tad confusing.
The connection is there...that is the commonality of techniques. How Art learned them remains a mystery...maybe this other guy...this Dave R guy was a synanon member?
Crap...I just don't know.
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Thanks for the clarification Greg. So the mystery remains. hmmm.
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On 2005-09-14 00:14:00, GregFL wrote:
"Well, unlike you Robin my parents at the direction of st Pete Staff went on an active campaign to enroll all my friends. their parents were invited over and we had to come in the room and give our "drug list" and then admit to doing drugs with their kids.
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OK - so that was THEM, you had no control over THEIR choices, only your own!
Integrity? Hell, there was no choice in the matter...
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You are correct - I had no choice but to drop the bullshit!!
Hey Robin...lookie here...real exchange going on!
Don't be so condescending Greg - it doesn't suit you! Well, actually it does but I won't go there :lol:
_________________
I bid you peace!
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OK Greg Now something is going on. Yeah! My best friend was staff in the seed. Her mother and some other parents of my "druggie friends" got together and heard how great the seed was. That is how I got in there. (along with a phoney court order). By the way, my former best friend is a lost puppie, going back to some very hard drugs after she left the seed. Guess it messed up some staff members too?? Haven't seen her since she left. Her brother told me not to even try to get in touch with her. "It would break my heart."
Julie
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On 2005-09-14 07:35:00, cleveland wrote:
Robin, the movie Thirteen is very instructive. I hit some low points but perhaps not that dramatic. However, the Seed did not give me the tools I use today. For instance, honesty. The Seed allowed only partial, 'acceptable' honesty and I think that is a problem. Perhaps it was not that way for you, but you left on your own. I stuck around.
Walter"
OK - this is the way it was "for me"...I came into the Seed in an extreme condition. They conditoned me by means of "another" extreme. After graduating, I managed to 'balance' out and find 'MY center'. No harm, no foul, to my life. I just grew up and got on w/ my life. I won't say the "Seed" gave me the tools, but watching my 'peers in practice', certainly proved to be an example of how I wanted to live my life and I incorporate most of what I learned there and then some!! Thanks Walter for acknowledging "Perhaps it was not that way for you." I truly respect that... :nworthy:
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Of course! We all have our own perceptions, and they are all valuable...
walter
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This is what I don't get in any of these sites. People recount true, accurate portrayals of gross therapeutic abuses, unethical, and misapplied coercive techniques and serious weaknesses within these programs that are systemic rather than isolated, and the programs are still defended as worthwhile. How can any program be worthwhile if it is inherently abusive or cultic? I don't get it!
On my site (CEDU), we even get people who bash the anti CEDU participants but have yet to describe one tool or practice that is beneficial. They say the program helps, butcan never answer the program helps, but can never answer the question "how?" And they never, ever address the systemic failures of the institution or how people were subjected to horrific psychological abuse and humiliation, and browbeaten to lie or hyperbolize about their past. These pro program people NEVER have an answer to how a one size fits all philosophy helps individuals, or which tools help people once they are back in the real world, out of an isolated environment with it's own code, lingo, and mind set.
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Oh sure they do...the whole schmeal is justified, all of it, by the deadinsaneinjail mantra.
They really got this hammered home so much they believe they were so lost and worthless at 15 that they were dying.
sad but true.
I talked to some staff members from one of the recent incarnations of the seed called SAFE. They all told me they were addicts and dying before they came in. For the most part they were pimply faced little kids motivating and keeping watch over the caged newcomers. I asked them what they were addicted to and they said "drugs". I told them that addiction was a physical need for a substance and asked them specifically which substance they were addicted to.
NONE of them had an answer but instead asked me if I had read Miller Newton's book "gone way down".