Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Straight, Inc. and Derivatives => Topic started by: dragonfly on September 08, 2005, 04:01:00 PM
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Withdraw said on another thread that the highest form of spirituality is to be able to embrace two opposing realities.
I would have to diaagree with this, its not the highest form of spiriruality its smily a relativeism. Everything is just as real and true as the next, and this is just foolish.
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We must realize that each individuals truth is their own and as real to them as ours is to us.
This is a really hard concept , I know.. But even in the terroist's eyes... what they are doing is what is ~right. Even if I don't agree.It is REAL to them. Finding a way to allow all forms of expression will lead to an eventual awakening that no one has to ~ hurt another to force thier reailty on a ~ non believer.
I can not do this alway in my own life or I would have no ill feelings toward any of my abusers. But is it for me to decide and judge what is ~right and morale ? We as humans tend to think something is ~ morale if it isn't effecting us or someone else in a negitive way. In Reality of the big picture until we value ALL reailties one will always cause harm to another.
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Has anyone read -The Fifth Sacred Thing , By Starhawk ? That book while out of the ~norm way of thinking .. made me consider what can happen if we can learn to embrace all. Would you invite an opposing army marching on your city to eat at your table ? Could you ?
Dragonfly, I hope you can look past any negitive or Troll type posts and continue expressing yourself. I want to know everyones reaility on what is happening to them and the world around them , because my vision is often clouded by my own agenda.
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Be My Lover
She struts into the room well I don't know her but with a magnifying glance I just sort of looked her over hmm
We had a drink or two well maybe three and then suddenly she starts telling me her life story
She says baby if you wanna be my lover you better take me home
'cause it's a long long way to paradise and I'm still on my own
Told her that I came from Detroit city and I played guitar in a long haired rock and roll band
She asked me why the singer's name was Alice I said listen baby you really wouldn't understand
And I said baby if you wanna be my lover you better take me home
'cause it's a long long way to paradise and I'm still on my own on my own
Oh baby if you wanna be my lover you better take me home
'cause it's a long long way to paradise and I'm still on my own oh
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On 2005-09-08 13:13:00, OverLordd wrote:
"I would have to diaagree with this, its not the highest form of spiriruality its smily a relativeism. Everything is just as real and true as the next, and this is just foolish."
Spell-check! :roll:
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I am with you Dragonfly. Keep posting. Everyone's experience is individual to them...Stra8 affected everyone differently. Some of us were addicts/alcoholics, some of us were not (some of us never even did drugs!), some of us that are addicts are sober today, some are not, some of us believe in god, some do not, some of us have started to work through our stra8 issues, some have not, most of us are still angry, but some are not...etc...
You get the idea...WE ARE ALL FUCKING DIFFERENT!!! and that place had a diff affect on all of us.
The one thing that we have in common today is that we were horribly abused when we were kids...and our parents allowed (or in some cases caused) it to happen...
So if anon wants to blame/hate or hate his/her parents that's cool...that is anon's experience...
I personally have a different experience...but I enjoy hearing others experience because it soothes me to know that I am not alone...some times I feel so fucking alone...this site has helped me remember/realize that there are a lot of other people who share my experience...it has also helped me to see that some of the ways that I deal with other people today are a direct result of my time in Star8 (i.e. always wanting to share my feelings...it tends to push my lovers away...big time)... anyway I am not alone I need you all...
I said it b4 and I will say it again...
I love and respect you ALL...b/c we are survivors!!!!!!!! We will prevail...
Peace!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111
:nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy:
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The extreme negativity, personal attacks and insults are frustrating....constructive criticism and disagreements are good but sometimes it seems like straight all over again....brutal confrontation....but dont let it get to you. You brought up something important...the attacks hurt and discourage constructive posts...I always think its better to disregard attacks as much as possible (sometimes its hard to ignore I know). And focus on the big picture instead...for lack of a better way of saying it...what we all have in common. ::rainbow::
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[ This Message was edited by: Withdraw on 2005-09-22 23:18 ]
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I agree with NCL that we should respect each other...we are all in this together..it can get frustrating (and painful)when people attack us...
I also realize that there are a lot of folks who are still angry...so let's direct the rage where it needs to go...
FUCK STRAIGHT FUCK THE SYSTEM I WAS BORN TO RAGE AGAINST THEM!!!!!!!!!!!
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Dragonfly I really am gald you shared that. I know we all deserve to say what we need to here, but frankly I am fucking sick of all the bullshit I read here somedays. Actually, lately, the forum seems to be relatively low on the bullshit.
But it's perspectives like your's that really need to be heard (er...read) and actually help us all. Please try to ignore the assholes. :grin:
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Oh, I'm late for the fifth-phaser rap! Darn it! I feel like using. In fact, I did use today. I smoked weed, I took some pills, I was a mother fucking riot in the E.R. :smokin:
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Actually, the ability to hold two contradictory views at the same time is a sign of brainwashing. Ex. Honesty, the first and most impotent rule was always enforce, right Straightlings? So then, why did we laugh like a bunch of luatics whenever someone put in to leave after their "3 day eval". Wtf could be funny about staff routinely breaking the first and most imptent rule with full complicity by parents, clients and all?
It was nervous laughter..
But that's completely different from having the ability to entertain a notion w/o accepting it as fact. In fact, it's sort of opposite. And, according to Aristotle, is the mark of an educated mind.
But I'm with ya'll on your conclusion anyway. I really quit being angry about this stuff, at least that part of it that's years gone now. Like you, Dragonfly, I might very well have put my daughter in a program if I didn't know better. It was then that I really, really understood what my dad did. Still at a loss, however, to understand my mom. She took to it like a fish to water, everything and everyone else be damned.
That's still a very raw spot w/ me. Not just cause they took my mother, either. But because it seems so many ppl are going along the same path these days, though more gradually.
So? I act angry and threatening when I'm scare. What of it. I went through an experimental behavior mod program as a teenager and it turned me out a bit like a former POW that way.
I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father and inventor
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[ This Message was edited by: Withdraw on 2005-09-22 23:18 ]
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But what about the idea that some one has to be right. No matter how many view points there are some one is correct. Some one is correct in a court case, some one is correct in a arguement. Always some one is right.
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Maybe, that is the idea we need to break for our world to make a jump in elvolution ... Maybe this is why we can not evolve yet. It could be our ~Greatest lesson here.
I'm not saying it is, but it is a major issue in everything we do in our lives ... Who is ~right or wrong ..
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On 2005-09-08 19:09:00, OverLordd wrote:
"But what about the idea that some one has to be right. No matter how many view points there are some one is correct. Some one is correct in a court case, some one is correct in a arguement. Always some one is right."
I'd say perception is ALWAYS skewed, everything is mispercieved. Our perception is never in the exact present moment, it's always off, delayed. Our whole system of experiencing the universe is inexact. And our reality, our society, our notions of right and wrong are based on these misperceptions. I'd say thought itself is always built up out of faulty judgements.
It's so great that everyone already knows how self righteous I am, I don't have to try to hide it any more.
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I really got a lot out of tonight's rap.
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THERE IS NEVER going to be trust or respect each other on this board or in person. I don't trust any of you unless you give me shit, and even then I might be nice for awhile but you'd better keep the gifts acomin. If there exists no higher bond or grounds between us than our own petty needs, then there is going to be fighting and bickering and backbiting. This can be seen in human nature.
Our cause is NEVER going to come unless you get out of the way of people like Ray Bradbury, Sherman Mike, Sammie Monroe, Wes Fager, and the rest of the lot of them. And I don't mean that harshly. These people stir up ambiguous controversy at best and don't really do our perceived causes any true and finalizing actions. For example, look at all the judges and officials who have passed bills and claims and the like for numerous survivors of abuse. Those people got their money, and their justice. Not here, B. and the rest of them are too busy trying to bask in the limelight of some old building they lived in for awhile. Peer review has time and time again suggested to these less than stable Straight hacks that they should back off, regroup and show some real genuine action.
Again, this, including this site, forum, straights.com, and the rest, is at best controversially ambiguous. There is not much quantitative information here, Wes, if you've read half of his information, is VERY careful in his wording in order to avoid lawsuits and simply because the information he wished he had, like the actual number of survivors and ex Straightlings, remains unknown. It's all qualitative and normative information that is all about value judgements and doesn't really serve to offer any archival or factual feel or genuine reaching to facts. So he's left with constantly using words like 'it appears' and 'it seems'. Unfortunately the poor old man, who is destitute like the lot of us and knows we'll see our justice in the next life or another, doesn't have alot to go on other than there are some angry folks who want to see their attackers fry for their crimes and for their lost lives.
And even we don't have our ducks in a row, none of us really know the true numbers, only an average of sorts, of all the folks in Straight. Because the files are ALL closed and unavailable to anyone who is NOT an attorney, a sergeant in the force, or a judge. Public record hardly offers light on the subjects poor Fager wants to broach. I want to feel for the guy, I do. I really wish Sembler would pay Fager for all the efforts of advertising that Fager does for our attackers. at least then we could all sleep a tad bit more soundly knowing that someone is getting right pay for all this hoopla and go nowhere b.s.
The shot rang out the day the attorney called and says, there will never be, most likely, a person who will be able to handle any case or merit against Straight Inc. or anything that it did. Unless a judge comes forward, or a president, and issues a retroactive blacklist. The policies and the bills are set in stone more or less, and people, especially politicians never do well with making more than small changes to the status quo. Even radicals recognize that a superbly high change to any policies and laws, especially those so outdate as our drug and child laws, just does not happen over night. These things really do take time.
So, in the meantime, while we realize that there is not actually a fucking thing we can do to make a dent in this brick wall of child laws and statutes and all that bullshit, we can resign ourselves to continuing the disrespect and the untrust and the lies and the backbiting. That is the one thing that remains tried and true blue in our society, the ease of use of negativity and the practical bashing, and trolling, of one another. We like it and its an acceptable form of expressing our discontent with our worlds, and if others get dragged down with us then at least we are not alone.
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i'm hot
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i'm thirsty
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hey Kool-Aid!
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Anon, you're absolutely right. Unless some people w/ very dirty hands themselves come forward and press the issue, we'll never see retribution against that relatively small handful of individuals who were directly responsible for abusing us lo these many years ago.
Fortunately for me, I don't care a whit about retribution.
Why? Cause, Straight (and The Seed and CEDU and all of it's spawns, including WWASP and all the branches and offshoots of the Roloff Homes) were not a bit out of line w/ the rest of society. They're not even anywhere near the worst or most agregious excesses in this ongoing culture war. Seriously, do you think any of us are worse off than the survivors of DEA's war on Colombian rebels? Or Bolivia's people? Or the victims of John Poindexter's and Ollie North's fun-n-games in Nicaragua?
And those are only a few of the more outrageous scandals tied directly (by design, not circumstance) to the war on certain unpatentable drugs not sold by Bobby DuPont's cronnies.
It's much broader than that, by far. And, as you note:
Even radicals recognize that a superbly high change to any policies and laws, especially those so outdate as our drug and child laws, just does not happen over night. These things really do take time.
Right now, those of us who at least recognize that we've got a big problem on our hands are at the point of just trying to get the rest of us to recognize that there is, indeed, a fucking problem. And, in a very real way, we're all somewhat complicit. So full and total retribution would be something akin to mass suicide. And nobody wants that. All I want is for our society to recognize certain mistakes in our thinking and to quit making them over and over and over again.
Is that so much to ask? Yes, it is. An awful lot. A daunting, overwhelming challenge, in fact. But hey, we quit overtly slaughtering No. American cultures, the practice of legally recognized ownership of humans and legally sanctioned wife beating. Those were pretty daunting challenges too.
And it's worth looking at the best and worst practices in history for dealing w/ these entrenched injustices. Here in America, we fought one of the bloodiest and most distructive wars in history in the course of shifting from a slave based to a wage based labour economy. In Brazil, which was even more deeply involved in the slave trade than America, they went about it differently.
Neither country has entirely eliminated the last vestigase of that evil legacy. And it's hard to say which one is better off these days. But one fairly significant indicator of racism in any country in the Western hemisphere is to look at immigrants from that country. Look around the Brazilian neighborhoods in So. Florida. You see a lot of black people there? Me either. Evidently, consensus has it that black people are better off in Brazil than in So. Florida. Maybe we could take a lesson from that.
Quit looking at this as a war to be faught and start looking at it as a prblem to be solved.
Since you [US "drug tsar" McCaffrey] control a federal budget that has just been increased from $17.8 billion last year to $19.2 billion this year, is asking people like you if we should continue with our nation's current drug policy like a person asking a barber if one needs a haircut? --
Orange Country, California
Los Angeles Times
29 March 2000
--Judge James P. Gray
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Antigen, Great post, If Problem solving techniques were used then some measurable headway could be made on the various issues. To spend time and energy trying to discredit people or put them in jail can bring some real satisfying short term satisfaction but never addresses the issues. Its like busting the drug dealers. The cops feel good, take pictures of each other holding the stash, maybe get a promotion, but we all know it doesnt put a dent in stopping people from doing drugs.
You hit it on the head when you said "Right now, those of us who at least recognize that we've got a big problem on our hands are at the point of just trying to get the rest of us to recognize that there is, indeed, a fucking problem". So based on pure problem solving tools:
Step 1 -- Recognize there is a problem and Define the problem (really boil it down to one sentence, write it down. i.e. Kids being sent to TBS ) This will take a lot of discussion and maybe weeks.
Step 2 Determine root cause (What is causing this to happen? Make sure you are staying focused on the proplem as it is written, it is very easy to wander off track. Uninformed parents, kids taking drugs, schools systems suck etc.) This could take time to determine. Its nice to have only one cause but sometimes there are many.
Step 3 Make a list of solutions (all of them). Educate parents, educate kids, shut down the schools, let the air out of the vehicles that take the kids away etc. Rate the hundreds of solutions and pick the top ones.
Step 4 Impliment Solutions (Impliment the top solutions)
Step 5 Measure your Success or failure (Very difficult sometimes)
Step 6 Adjust and go back to Step 3.
If these steps are followed practically any problem could be solved eventually.
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Yes. This sounds like a very systematic political and empirical analysis. I wouldn't be surprised if you go on to write up a report on the methodical issues in our laws and bills and minds today. I agree that defining the problem, learning what our world thinks at large and all of the things other people have written about it, is definitevely the best way to start.
In fact, the procedures you just wrote down for coming up with some solutions for these issues are not far off from the empirical analysis papers. Also, it would involve peer review which for starters you would have all the peers you need right here, and more on the way if you try to get your report/article somehow published. Easier to get college publication than through normal methods by the by. I wouldn't typically give away a secret like this but this is a cause I can get in with you on.
Tell more of your thoughts here. Thanks.
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Not sure if I could dedicate the time to monitor and organize the responses. I have applied these steps in industry and the results are amazing. The key to success, for me, was to
define the problem very carefully and focus on getting to root cause at all times and constantly refer back to the problem statement (step 1) to insure all our energy is focused tightly on the problem defined. I think Antigen would be great for this, someone who is able to see the larger picture and willing to consider all solutions even if they seem far fetched or too simplistic because they are sometimes the ones that end up solving the issues.
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Well thanks, DF and Anon.
I think the consensus trance is pretty much a good and wholesome, natural part of human social life. Ya' know, like that glow you get sometimes when the band and the crowd are just in sync w/ something beautiful and powerful? Really, do you? I've heard tell of it, but never had access to anything like it since I was a little kid.
I envy people who can dance like that. I think the Program is just one method of exploiting that natural function. Personally, I'm allergic to giving over any little part of my will to a group like that.
For that reason, and many others, I don't think I'd be the best person to organize an effort such as you describe. For one thing, I change my thinking continually on the issue. If I had a single, clear, simple vision, that would be different. But the only thing of which I'm really certain is that thing about talking out in group|behind backs|to other newcomers, splits, pulls and other apostates*.
Frankly, even that has changed over time. I thought my forte was going to be in programing. And I wasn't half bad at it for as long as my focus lasted. But then came a request for tech assistance in setting up these forums. And, well, I've been pretty much enthralled with using the ap; little interest left in building it.
So that's all I'll focus my eforts on, unless I come up w/ some other bright idea. But if ya'll are onto something, then by all means do it and please let me know if there's any way in which my little one note song can play in.
*Thanks Marshall :wink:
The lust for power, for dominating others, inflames the heart more than any other passion
Tacitus
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Bullshit, all bullshit. Go read the child torture on the new Restraining thread. You gonna let that go unaddressed? Man, you people like to roll over.
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