Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on September 07, 2005, 02:07:00 AM
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http://forum.conductdisorders.com/ubbcg ... 7;t=000993 (http://forum.conductdisorders.com/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=000993)
Note the way the parents sign their posts, labeling their kids with one conduct disorder after another.
IMO, this is sick, twisted and very very scary.
Also, some of the whiney, overly controlling parents sound just like the parents on Struggling Teens. Wonder if they bounce back and forth?
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Check out this thread. A dad looking for advice on how to find a residential treatment program for his son who just finished the pre-requisite wilderness therapy experience.
And so it goes .... parents helping other parents follow the yellow brick road.
http://forum.conductdisorders.com/ubbcg ... 7;t=000969 (http://forum.conductdisorders.com/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=000969)
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::sighs:: another sick forum just like ST its really disturbing how they talk behind their kids back to complete strangers.
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Well, right in the first couple of posts in that thread someone recomends ST. If you look at the domain contact info, you find...
Administrative Contact:
Paci, Fran capfrag@aol.com
5308 Seascape Lane
Plano, TX 75093
Who's that?
If you think about why you hate me, you might find that it's not me.
--Antigen
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My son went to a secure (locked) long-term (he was there 10 months until his 18th birthday, but could have stayed longer if they or we thought he should) dual-diagnostic (psych and substance abuse) RTC.
:eek:
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On 2005-09-07 09:30:00, Antigen wrote:
"Well, right in the first couple of posts in that thread someone recomends ST. If you look at the domain contact info, you find...
Administrative Contact:
Paci, Fran capfrag@aol.com
5308 Seascape Lane
Plano, TX 75093
Who's that?
If you think about why you hate me, you might find that it's not me.
--Antigen
"
Be careful what you post, Karen might sue you! :lol:
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OK. So who is to blame? The parent for believing what the medical profession is telling them? "Your child has a conduct disorder. He must be medicated into oblivion." Or is is the medical professionals who are simply giving parents what they ask for? A label. A prescription to "fix" the problem. Or is it a societal problem?
Gosh. I wish I had such simplistic answers. I know that we were told by professionals that "your daughter is depressed, manic, borderline. Here is a scrip for her every ill". I'm glad that I didn't buy into it. However, I do have a child who would like to pop a pill for everything from weight loss, to acne, to a good nights sleep. I don't know where she gets this, but I do know it is difficult to get her to understand that losing weight requires cutting calories and exercising. That acne requires taking good care of her skin consistently.
So yes we do tend to slap labels on our kids. It is wrong. I think many kids take their label as their identity. A terrible obstacle to overcome.
But, again, whose to blame. And more importantly, how do we change it?[ This Message was edited by: Truth Searcher on 2005-09-07 11:29 ]
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Searcher, I think this sums it up: "From the bottom of any large organization looking up through the ranks, human greed and stupidity look a lot like a conspiracy."
--S. Gilbert
Or, to put it another way, "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
I think we're in one hell of a fix as a civilization. And the troubled parent industry, especially in it's most horrible excesses, is just one outcropping of that.
I passed on the idea of trying to identify and punish the guilty a long time ago. I don't think it would be any more apropriate or productive than, say, punishing every pediatrician who ever bullied a young mother to bottle feed their child or administer aspirin at the first sign of low grade fever. This kind of advice, though tragic in some cases and just sadly but mildly harmful in most, were commonly accepted wisdom; supported by well... damned near everyone at the time.
I think we just need to take a step back as a society and reexamine much of the prevailing wisdom on every issue. One of them (just one, but it's a biggie) is the basic concept that human kind needs professional help in raising our offspring. That's a rediculous notion, of course. But, well, it's been long accepted and so will take a good long while to overturn.
WHEN SPIDERS UNITE, THEY CAN TIE DOWN A LION
-- Ethiopian Proverb
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On 2005-09-07 11:56:00, Antigen wrote:
"Searcher, I think this sums it up: "From the bottom of any large organization looking up through the ranks, human greed and stupidity look a lot like a conspiracy."
--S. Gilbert
Or, to put it another way, "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
I think we're in one hell of a fix as a civilization. And the troubled parent industry, especially in it's most horrible excesses, is just one outcropping of that.
I passed on the idea of trying to identify and punish the guilty a long time ago. I don't think it would be any more apropriate or productive than, say, punishing every pediatrician who ever bullied a young mother to bottle feed their child or administer aspirin at the first sign of low grade fever. This kind of advice, though tragic in some cases and just sadly but mildly harmful in most, were commonly accepted wisdom; supported by well... damned near everyone at the time.
I think we just need to take a step back as a society and reexamine much of the prevailing wisdom on every issue. One of them (just one, but it's a biggie) is the basic concept that human kind needs professional help in raising our offspring. That's a rediculous notion, of course. But, well, it's been long accepted and so will take a good long while to overturn.
WHEN SPIDERS UNITE, THEY CAN TIE DOWN A LION
-- Ethiopian Proverb
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What's hard for me to understand is why the baby-boomer parents are buying into the criminalization/medicalization of adolescence? Not all of them, but enough to help the industry grow from just 30-40 programs a decade ago to over 400 today.
What's wrong with these people that they see nothing wrong with paying somebody to kidnap their kid and force them into one of these hellcamps?
Speaking of hell, these parents are part of the Viet Nam era ... "HELL NO WE WON'T GO ... don't trust anybody over 30" generation and yet they march their kids off to these facilities that treat them like P.O.W.'s.
What I hope and pray for is that the generation of youth (now adults) who survived these hellcamps will continue to speak out against the teen help industry. The former Straight, Seed, KHK parents who post on Fornits and maintain their own websites are all helping to build critical mass, along with the new generation of cult programs (WWASPS, CEDU, etc). You are all the unsung heroes.
:nworthy:
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Public Enemy #1 is C.H.A.D.D.
This massively funded organization has close ties to the pharmaceutical industry and appears to be very proactive in perpetuating the big conduct disorder myth (A.D.D.)
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On 2005-09-07 12:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
What's wrong with these people that they see nothing wrong with paying somebody to kidnap their kid and force them into one of these hellcamps?
I think that's the $64Bn question. Why? While we're at it, why do these same people accept the obvious bullshit that an active, high energy kid is disordered? That bordom w/ a school curriculum that has been steadily dumbed down over the years is indicative of disorder? That rebellion against our ever more restrictive demands on kids to behave in a professional, adult, dispassionate, conformist manner are all signs of disorder.
Worse? How come so many of these yuppies will entheusiastically endorse and support the DARE cop w/ their fear mongering about methamphetamine while forcing their own kids to swollow Desoxyn,
Amphedroxyn, Desfedrin, Methedrine, Norodin, Syndrox, Edroxine, Methampex, etc. (which are all brand names for Methamphetamine Hydrochloride)
The question boils down to this; why are we so fucking stupid and gullible? How did we get this way? How do we turn it around and get people to wake the hell up and start thinking again?
Maybe we just have to wait until enough people have been directly effected by these high demand cults so that the rest of them will know the deal and know better than to buy into their bullshit. Or maybe not. Maybe it's end differently. Maybe the next generation will be so entirely inane and mindless as to follow the next generation's leaders right over a cliff like lemmings, leaving the smarter ones to rebuild society as they see fit.
Sorry, it's frustrating. Why would anyone buy into these obvious lies? Don't know, really. But they do.
If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace.
--Thomas Paine
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So, does ADD exist? Or do kids just need to get out of the house and run and play in the neighborhood and burn off that extra energy?
Do conduct disorders truly exist? Or are kids acting out for parental approval and attention because parents are too caught up in a materialist culture?
Do personality disorder actually exist? Or are kids messed up who have been institutionalized since birth?
Are we too quick to allow ourselves to be victims and not take responsibility for our actions? Do other countries have such alarming rates of medicating their children and do their doctors ship them off to psychiatrists and institutions when things go haywire?
Rhetorical questions I know, but I do desire to understand the big picture...
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That boredom w/ a school curriculum that has been steadily dumbed down over the years is indicative of disorder? That rebellion against our ever more restrictive demands on kids to behave in a professional, adult, dispassionate, conformist manner are all signs of disorder.
Antigen~
Please expound your thinking on this. You have described my daughter to a T. HATES, HATES, HATES school. Is currently doing the Gothic thing. Complete with gaged ears, black hair, funky cut, lotsa, lotsa black. She says she wears black because there isn't anything darker. :smile:
I am trying desperately to understand. I am trying to stay supportive and connected. I know that parents have never understood their adolescents. I thought I was going to be one of those parents who could identify with her daughter. But, I confess I am struggling to do so.
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Well, I think it's not true that parents have never understood their adolescent kids. Generally, they do. It seems to be just the post industrial age where we have this problem. And I think it's largely just misconception.
What's the difference, really, between today's gothic black and, say, disco, roller skates and Farah Fawcett "wings"? Or, to go back a step, poodle skirts and bobby socks and the shocking (shocking!) way in which that Elvis boy thrust his hips on stage?
Back one more generation, how many young men joined the French Foreign Legion and came back home w/ Syphilis? Remember that, before we knew about AIDS, there were other deadly, incurable diseases. And young people were just as likely then as now to go out for some risks and adventure.
Yeah, I thought I was always going to be my oldest daughter's bestes friend too. Rude awakening, huh? But that's life. Kids grow up and need their independence. I think we used to just accept it better. But that doesn't necessarily mean it was actually any easier.
One bit of advice; just something to check into as a lot of ppl just don't know about it. If your kid is really bored w/ school and rejecting the more humiliating aspects of it, there are other options. To start with, you can probably just send a letter of intent to the local school district and declare yourself the supervisor of her very own home education program. In most states, there's not much more to it than that.
What you and she do from there is wide open. If she's accademically inclined, she can probably kill some time wracking up some college credits at the local community college. If she's more hands on, maybe a part time job would be better. Or maybe she'd like to go do some serious volunteer work of some kind.
http://libertarianrock.com/ (http://libertarianrock.com/) always has some good ideas. And here's a good book that just sort of explains the situation and offers another viewpoint from that professed by professional educators.
http://www.lowryhousepublishers.com/Tee ... ndbook.htm (http://www.lowryhousepublishers.com/TeenageLiberationHandbook.htm)
From my pov, you really can't blame a kid for being unhappy w/ the state of things in most of our school system. But it's one thing to just be resigned to unhappiness. It's quite another to get some practice at dealing w/ the problem like an adult and actually do something better w/ her time and energy. Or, maybe, stay right in the thick of it and do something worthwhile to try and improve the situation?
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid
of the dark. The real tragedy of life is
when men are afraid of the light.
--Plato
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous
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Is currently doing the Gothic thing. Complete with gaged ears, black hair, funky cut, lotsa, lotsa black. She says she wears black because there isn't anything darker.
Hmm thats cool. I have a thing for goth girls. I have dated alot of them. :smile:
They are generally fun people with a great imagination when you get to know them.
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TS,
I have posted numerous articles and essays on the topic of so-called mental illnesses and disorders. Just Search WWF for ADHD and/or SSRIs.
Other than genuine brain damage, there are no tests that can prove any of them exist or are 'genetic'. No blood test or brain scan.
The APA adopted the medical model (for which there are objective tests to prove disease) but the only 'test' for MIs are subjective observation. Psych drugs 'cure' nothing, but can result in death.
There are so many factors that can affect attitude/behavior. Many a child/person has been drugged when they only needed a change of diet, more exercise, a different learning environment or job, quality attention from an adult they admire, some treatment for a genuine medical problem, etc. One study showed a drastic improvement of subjects with 'ADHD' by simply taking them to a green space everyday. I think this was in NY, if memory serves.
Humans have been altering their consciousness forever. Even little children do it- sucking, rocking, spinning. Appears there may be an inherent desire. Or perhaps the world is so hard, the desire surfaces very early.
Your daughter, like others in her generation have been bombarded with constant advertisements, conditioning them to rely on drugs for whatever ails them. If they don't get it from the media, their peers will educate them. Think of the poor saps who took Viagra (was it) to enhance their sexual performance and ended up blind ! Lawsuits are in the works. Again, no 'cure', just a cover-up of symptoms, IF one is lucky. And the side effects are frequently as bad or worse than the problem.
I personally believe that modern humans are living in a highly stressful, unnatural state. It's easy to understand why people would seek relief, even from their 'struggling' children who they have no time for. The question, which is one that is forced on teens in programs, is this taking responsibility? I think not.
My son went through a kinda goth period AFTER a program. His 'symptoms' were what psychs label 'ptsd'. He made and wore anarchy t-shirt with cammo or black pants, army boots, chains. Everything purchased at Goodwill or the Army Surplus store. No piercings- hates needles. He was also over 6' tall and had parrot green hair for a while, so image the stares. Hey, it was easy to locate him in a crowd!! After many hours of counseling, he described it to me and his counselor (a friend of mine) as his 'safety blanket'. It repelled others. He eventually desired a change because it was repelling some people (mostly girls) that he wanted to be close to. His counselor told me to wait it out, it would be a good indicator of where he was emotionally. He eventually swaped it for the skater look and took up skateboarding. I never gave people in public the opportunity to make negative comments. I treated him with respect in their presence and just warmly smiled when someome would look to me to see what reaction I might tolerate from them.
Not all kids who are Goth/Bohemian/etc have been through the heinous treatment he received, but they are square pegs who desire to distinquish themselves from others- or the many I've known were. And if you listen to them, they are typically very intellegent and much more in touch with the reality of their world than mainstreamers. A strong visual expression of 'I refuse to conform or accept the way things are'.
Unfortunately, as many of the radical baby boomers found out- Change is extremely difficult, if at all possible. The square pegs I've known eventually change (give in?) around the time they decide that earning a living is more important than their visual statement of non conformity. A few did go into work that didn't require a change- musicians, artists, etc.
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it's all just part of the search for an identity, and trying to figure out who you are. phases are so important in growing up. yeah, it kinda stings to see someone who says they want to stand out and be different doing whatever it takes to conform to a subculture, but what else are they going to do? at a school, kids have so few means of expression, that they use their wardrobe/body/hair to do it. better they go through their eyesore phases in their teens and twenties than later in life, that's few sure.
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I think it's a case by case basis. Some kids may have serious problems, some may not. (I did.)
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Thanks for the wisdom.
Antigen~ we actually did try homeschooling before she went to her TBS. She hated it too. She liked the freedom to learn according to her learning style, however, she really missed the social opportunities associated with a public school. Our homeschooling groups in the area are rather..... conservative :wink: ..... and she didn't quite fit that mold either. I do think she highly intelligent and just does not get excited by lectures, text reading and worksheets.
Deborah~ thank you for sharing your son's experience. This Gothic thing sprouted during her last few months of her TBS. I was hoping when she returned to a more mainstream culture, that she would lose the chains and combat boots. But, alas, she did not. I find your perspectives about creating distance particularly interesting. I just finished a great book called "Bodily Harm", and the author (who primarily treats self-mutilators) has a term that I really chewed on. She calls mutilating, or the bag lady look, or the Gothic thing "Uglification". She feels many youths cut and scar themselves to keep intimate relationships at bay. She implies that the same may be true for kids who really dress outside of the mainstream. My daughter does both.
So, anyway thanks. I know a big part of my struggle with this is my own pride. I know, it's immature, but it is true. I have even gotten past caring how people in the mall or in general public react. But, there are those in the extended family who aren't too accepting. We live in a well to do, snobby, middle class town. If your kid doesn't look like they stepped off the pages of American Eagle or the Gap, ya get some "inquiring" looks and comments....
Anyway, thanks again. It helped to just be heard.
I need to continue to see the bright, talented, artistic kind kid that she is.
[ This Message was edited by: Truth Searcher on 2005-09-08 10:39 ]
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***I do think she highly intelligent and just does not get excited by lectures, text reading and worksheets
Some (many?) learn by 'doing'. Not much support for that, unfortunately.
Re: the 'distancing' issue, that was my son's explanation, which may or may not apply to others. I can certainly see where someone might adopt it for acceptance. As his anger and mistrust subsided so did some of that. When a change happened it always followed an awareness on his part of feeling like a 'poser'- adopting the Goth look then later realizing he wasn't Goth at all. Adopting the look did serve a purpose for a time- until he was older and no longer felt controlled by and vulnerable to adult authority figures.
I can see where dress may keep some intimate relationships at bay, but that didn't apply to my son. He was cutting too, after the program, but no one knew. He described that differently. It seemed to be, on one hand, a test to see how much pain he could tolerate. And on the other hand, an internalization of the intense and constant 'punishment' he'd endured. For him, this began with a tradition practiced at the facility- tatoos done with crude impliments, pins or other sharp objects and ink from pens.
I'm remembering one of my son's friends. Highly intellegent, awesome poet and story teller, a fun and likeable guy. Parents were rabid fundamentalists who lived in woods and kept a tight rein on him. He had a little duffle bag that contained his Goth garb. When he ecsaped their grasp he would tranform- all black clothes, chains, black liner/lips/nails, the whole bit. Last I saw him he checked me out at a store. Working full time and attending community college at night persuing a writing career. I wondered, but didn't ask, if he still dressed Goth on his off hours or if he'd given it up.
Might we see less of this if there was less irrational BS to deal with? If kids real needs were understood and provided? The whole adolescent rebellion issue has been shown to be a product of modern 'civilized' societies. Why do we keep avoiding the inevitable and punishing our kids for their reaction to an insane way of living?
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"Until you've lost your reputation,you never realize what a burden it was or what freedom really is."--MARGARET MITCHELL
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous
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On 2005-09-08 03:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I think it's a case by case basis. Some kids may have serious problems, some may not. (I did.)"
I said this comment earlier in the thread.
I hate to say this to you people, but the way a kid dresses, be it goth, punk, metalhead or whatever, is NOT a problem in and of itself that you should worry about, unless they are trapsing around half-naked. I know it may be different than what you are accustomed to. If you don't want to be seen in public with them, that sounds more like your problem than theirs.
If the kid has other problems, then deal with those problems, but don't conflate the dress code with that. That impinges on the kid's ability to create their own identity. You may consider that dress code or image destructive, but that is your own prejudice.
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Yeah, besides, piercings, tats, mohawks and funky clothing are about as risqe these days as pierced ears were in the 60's. It's not asif this sort of thing is going to be stigmatizing in the long term. In fact, I think the kids who don't dress oddly might turn out to be the weird ones.
We long for homes we can never have as long as we have institutions like school, television, corporation, and government in loco parentis.
John Taylor Gatto
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Conduct Disorder
By the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry
"Conduct disorder" is a complicated group of behavioral and emotional problems in youngsters. Children and adolescents with this disorder have great difficulty following rules and behaving in a socially acceptable way. They are often viewed by other children, adults and social agencies as "bad" or delinquent, rather than mentally ill.
Children or adolescents with conduct disorder may exhibit some of the following behaviors:
Aggression to people and animals
* Bullies, threatens or intimidates others
* Often initiates physical fights
* Has used a weapon that could cause serious physical harm to others (e.g. a bat, brick, broken bottle, knife or gun)
* Is physically cruel to people or animals
* Steals from a victim while confronting them (e.g. assault)
* Forces someone into sexual activity
Destruction of Property
* Deliberately engaged in fire setting with the intention to cause damage
* Deliberately destroys other's property
Deceitfulness, lying, or stealing
* Has broken into someone else's building, house, or car
* Lies to obtain goods, or favors or to avoid obligations
* Steals items without confronting a victim (e.g. shoplifting, but without breaking and entering)
Serious violations of rules
* Often stays out at night despite parental objections
* Runs away from home
* Often truant from school
Children who exhibit these behaviors should receive a comprehensive evaluation. Many children with a conduct disorder may have coexisting conditions such as mood disorders, anxiety, PTSD, substance abuse, ADHD, learning problems, or thought disorders which can also be treated. Research shows that youngsters with conduct disorder are likely to have ongoing problems if they and their families do not receive early and comprehensive treatment. Without treatment, many youngsters with conduct disorder are unable to adapt to the demands of adulthood and continue to have problems with relationships and holding a job. They often break laws or behave in an antisocial manner.
Many factors may contribute to a child developing conduct disorder, including brain damage, child abuse, genetic vulnerability, school failure, and traumatic life experiences.
Treatment of children with conduct disorder can be complex and challenging. Treatment can be provided in a variety of different settings depending on the severity of the behaviors. Adding to the challenge of treatment are the child's uncooperative attitude, fear and distrust of adults. In developing a comprehensive treatment plan, a child and adolescent psychiatrist may use information from the child, family, teachers, and other medical specialties to understand the causes of the disorder.
Behavior therapy and psychotherapy are usually necessary to help the child appropriately express and control anger. Special education may be needed for youngsters with learning disabilities. Parents often need expert assistance in devising and carrying out special management and educational programs in the home and at school. Treatment may also include medication in some youngsters, such as those with difficulty paying attention, impulse problems, or those with depression.
Treatment is rarely brief since establishing new attitudes and behavior patterns takes time. However, early treatment offers a child a better chance for considerable improvement and hope for a more successful future.
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What the fuck? Behaving badly is a disorder now? And another question. Why would a kid have PTSD without visiting a fucking program? This of course exclused rapes and sexual abuses that can cause such things. Can it be cause by pysical abuse as well?
Behavior therapy and psychotherapy are usually necessary to help the child appropriately express and control anger.
Here is a good question... what is approate and who decides it? I have found it quiet apporpriate to get into fights. My mother does not like it when I sream, I dont find it satisfying to beat on a pillow. My First Seargent curses like a salior when he is angry. (I never thought you could have the words fuck and shit combined so many ways in a sentance) What is the right way to deal with anger, and who picks that way, and why do we have to listen to them?
Treatment is rarely brief since establishing new attitudes and behavior patterns takes time.
And here we have the first hint of the programs!!!
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Conduct Disorder
By the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry
"Conduct disorder" is a complicated group of behavioral and emotional problems in youngsters. Children and adolescents with this disorder have great difficulty following rules and behaving in a socially acceptable way. They are often viewed by other children, s and social agencies as "bad" or delinquent, rather than mentally ill.
Children or adolescents with conduct disorder may exhibit some of the following behaviors:
Aggression to people and animals
Bullies, threatens or intimidates others
Often initiates physical fights
Has used a weapon that could cause serious physical harm to others (e.g. a bat, brick, broken bottle, knife or gun)
Is physically cruel to people or animals
Steals from a victim while confronting them (e.g. assault)
Forces someone into ual activity
Destruction of Property
Deliberately engaged in fire setting with the intention to cause damage
Deliberately destroys other's property
Deceitfulness, lying, or stealing
Has broken into someone else's building, house, or car
Lies to obtain goods, or favors or to avoid obligations
Steals items without confronting a victim (e.g. shoplifting, but without breaking and entering)
Serious violations of rules
Often stays out at night despite parental objections
Runs away from home
Often truant from school
Children who exhibit these behaviors should receive a comprehensive evaluation. Many children with a conduct disorder may have coexisting conditions such as mood disorders, anxiety, PTSD, substance abuse, ADHD, learning problems, or thought disorders which can also be treated. Research shows that youngsters with conduct disorder are likely to have ongoing problems if they and their families do not receive early and comprehensive treatment. Without treatment, many youngsters with conduct disorder are unable to adapt to the demands of hood and continue to have problems with relationships and holding a job. They often break laws or behave in an antisocial manner.
Many factors may contribute to a child developing conduct disorder, including brain damage, child abuse, genetic vulnerability, school failure, and traumatic life experiences.
Treatment of children with conduct disorder can be complex and challenging. Treatment can be provided in a variety of different settings depending on the severity of the behaviors. Adding to the challenge of treatment are the child's uncooperative attitude, fear and distrust of s. In developing a comprehensive treatment plan, a child and adolescent psychiatrist may use information from the child, family, teachers, and other medical specialties to understand the causes of the disorder.
Behavior therapy and psychotherapy are usually necessary to help the child appropriately express and control anger. Special education may be needed for youngsters with learning disabilities. Parents often need expert assistance in devising and carrying out special management and educational programs in the home and at school. Treatment may also include medication in some youngsters, such as those with difficulty paying attention, impulse problems, or those with depression.
Treatment is rarely brief since establishing new attitudes and behavior patterns takes time. However, early treatment offers a child a better chance for considerable improvement and hope for a more successful future.
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Unfortunately, any kid who is not behaviorally correct can be labeled with a "conduct disorder" and shipped off to a behavior mod warehouse.
It's a racket ... and parents who are naive, desperate, gullible, or just plain stupid, fall for this crap like flies on honey.
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Truth Searcher- I know it may be difficult, but maybe try to be supportive of your daughters personal style (clothing, hair, jewelry, ect...). Encourage her to express herself this way- it's healthy!
Although I never went through a full-time "Goth" phase, I do have a couple gothic-style outfits, which I still enjoy wearing out occassionally. I'm 27yo, and just last year, I dyed my (natual) blonde hair to dark burgandy. When I was in college, sometimes I put burgandy or hot pink streaks in my hair.
Sometimes it just feels good to wear dark things. It's an affirmation that you are an individual, and creative and beautiful, especially when everyone around you is wearing Abercrombie.
As for your daugher's dislike of school- there are lots of potential reasons for that.
If this is financially possible, I would recommend that you let your daughter pick her own school, maybe a boarding school.
I was allowed to do that (upon leaving Provo Canyon). I had a big book of all these private and boarding schools all over the country and abroad. I picked out 3 or 4 places to visit and interview at.
There are all kinds of schools out there (some with demanding academics, some less demanding. Some focus on art, some on environmental science, some on sports, anything you can think of). Visiting the schools allows your child to meet other students, and she can decide for herself where she thinks she will fit in best.
You really can't hate school when you picked it yourself! And public school is tough, in a lot of ways, and I hated it too.
I am so happy I was given the opportunity to choose my own school. It was really the best thing for me. It was so interesting to learn about all these different schools, and how many kids get to choose where they go for high school? I just wish my parents would have allowed me to do that before sending me to Provo Canyon School, which was a terrible place.
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Bandit ~
Thanks for the encouragement. I am trying to find peace with her new personal style. I understand that this is her expression. It is just an adjustment for me. She used to be the cover child for American Eagle. And I could handle occasional black. But, its every day, and head to toe. (Even black nail polish... LOL) Ahhhh..... well...... so it is. I still see her inner beauty.
School is actually going better. She has made some connections with some good kids and seems much more positive. We actually talked about a boarding school. But, finances would not allow it. And she really is glad to be home. I think she equates boarding school with her therapeutic placement. So thats where we are.
But, again, thanks for the encouragement.
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I know the parent of a seriously goth kid who tried everything she could to make her daughter change her appearance. Nothing worked until she stopped looking at her kid as a possession, something she "owned" instead of the unique individual she is. Once she did this, the communication lines opened up. No more yelling. No more threats (do as I say OR ELSE!). She even went shopping at some local flea markets and used clothing stores with her daughter to help her find clothes and accessories to match her gothic taste.
After about 6 months, the girl grew out of her gothic phase and to this day, they both laugh about it. The girl is now in college majoring in child psychology. LOL ... guess it just goes to show that sometimes (maybe alot of the time) parents who learn to embrace their kid's individuality (creativity) by focusing on the positive, instead of the negative, can and do end up with kids who turn out pretty darn good.
There is no magic bullet. Hating your kid for not acting and looking like YOU is a huge mistake. Take the TOUGH outta love and you might be surprised at how easy it is to look at your child and be thankful they are on the planet.
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Thanks Anon~
I appreciate your words. I too, have shopped with my daughter at the the thrift stores (saved alot of $$$ on the tight budget this year!!), army surplus and even (OMG)at Hot Topix ::bangin:: (believe me... I'm no fashion diva. Most of my clothes come from garage sales... :wink: )
See, that's why I come here. Because I really appreciate the perspective that helps me understand where she's coming from. So, thanks.
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On 2005-09-14 09:51:00, Truth Searcher wrote:
"Thanks Anon~
I appreciate your words. I too, have shopped with my daughter at the the thrift stores (saved alot of $$$ on the tight budget this year!!), army surplus and even (OMG)at Hot Topix ::bangin:: (believe me... I'm no fashion diva. Most of my clothes come from garage sales... :wave:
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Motivated by this thread, I have again put hot pink streaks in my (blonde) hair.
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This is my assessment, with over ten years in professional mental health treatment. Of course, opinions on this stuff vary a great deal. To start, it sounds like you are very insightful.
On 2005-09-07 16:00:00, Truth Searcher wrote:
"So, does ADD exist?
I don't believe in ADHD. I am in the minority. It is interesting. ADHD is not diagnosed as heavily, Europe or elsewhere, as it is in the USA. Big Pharma USA profits heavily on the ADHD mythology. Lots of clinicians enjoy the Big Pharma lunches, dinners, freebees, etc.
Or do kids just need to get out of the house and run and play in the neighborhood and burn off that extra energy?
Yes. Video games and TV don't help a growing mind. Or the school program is not challenging. Many ADHD labeled kids are bright and bored in the crappy public schools.
Do conduct disorders truly exist?
I would not define it as a disorder. But it has become a way to label kids--especially underprivledged minorities. They statistically carry this diagnosis more than others. It is like saying: "This kid will be a sociopath when he gets older." According to the DSM, Conduct Disorder is frequently a precursor to antisocial personality disorder. When a clinician labels a kid with this, it is a set up for failure.
Or are kids acting out for parental approval and attention because parents are too caught up in a materialist culture?
Good insight.
Do personality disorder actually exist?
Yes. But any clinician worth a grain of salt would not label someone under the age of 18 with a personality disorder. Personality is not fully developed during the pre-adult stages of human development. Erikson addresses this in his widely accepted theory of human development. Many normal adolescent personality traits (testing boundaries, challenging authority, experimentation with drugs and sex, disregard for others) are too often diagnosed / labeled as borderline, antisocial, etc., in the mental health system. Personality Disorders are rare and currently over diagnosed even in adult mental health treatment. If a clinician diagnoses a kid with a PD, run for the hills. They are essentially telling you: "I cannot help your kid. He / she is hopeless / a pain in my ass."
Or are kids messed up who have been institutionalized since birth?
Institutionalization does effect mental health, development, social skills, and general health and wellness. There are plenty of studies on record that address this fact.
Are we too quick to allow ourselves to be victims and not take responsibility for our actions?
Yes. We are living in a microwave fast society. Everyone seems to want the quick fix. This is how Big Pharma makes their billions.
Do other countries have such alarming rates of medicating their children and do their doctors ship them off to psychiatrists and institutions when things go haywire?
No. This is unique to the Western world--especially the USA. There are many cultural explanations. And there are many studies that show this discrepancy. An example of a cultural difference: In the East, many people labeled elsewhere as psychotic / schizophrenic are considered visionaries and are not stigmatized.
Again, take a look at Big Pharma for a partial explanation.
Rhetorical questions I know, but I do desire to understand the big picture..."
Sounds to me like you have a good grasp of the big picture.
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In the East, many people labeled elsewhere as psychotic / schizophrenic are considered visionaries and are not stigmatized.
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I hear this alot, but I have never seen one of these
visionaries who has schizophrenia. Urban myth I would say.
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It is easy to spot stigmitizing opinions written by someone who does not have a mental illness ...
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Ok, here's my opinion on HD/ADHD.
Yes, certainly, there are people who are far more active, more easily bored, distractable and prone to flit from one interest to the next. This is, to some degree, a normal part of early childhood. But some kids stand out and excell at it.
But THIS IS NOT A DISORDER!
There are other kids who are extremely shy, pensive, quiet, reserved and inclined to just sit and emmerse themselves in a single interest for hours.
THIS IS ALSO NOT A DISORDER!
Most, possibly all, of the great luminaries down through history fit perfectly one horrid Dx or another. Had Einstein been doped up on Nazi methamphetamines like we do to kids like him today, we would never have had the theory of relativity. Then what would Stephen Hawking have done w/ his disable self?
Who knows. I'm just thankful that Mr. and Mrs. Hawking didn't get sucked into the same toughlove hategroup that my parents did. Li'll Steve was, by all accounts (including his own) a perfect candidate for a toughlove behavior mod program.
The present system is among the most impractical imaginable, if the facilitation of learning is your aim.
--Neil Postman and Charles Weingartner
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Well, I am not sure about the elimination of all diagnosis and simply doing nothing or letting people drift and see where they end up.
Many people have been helped when their diagnosis effect their lives negatively. Ask them, their family or friends. Don't ask yourself to be the expert unless you have experienced a mental illness firsthand or as a family member.
Remember that all those artists that they are now claiming had some sort of diagnosis DID NOT CREATE while symptomatic.
That is so important to understand, rather than to just throw a critical net of disbelief on a whole
section of science that we may all need someday, whether we believe in it or not.
Ask anyone who has a diagnosis how much fun they are having, and if they chose to go nuts ...
No one chooses it, life just happens, just like it will happen to us all ...
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Finally, Lincoln was very depressed when he was taken in by that family friend.
If it is as the naysayers suggest, he should have been given no help.
His host thought he had the ability for law school so he filled out the application for him. Fortunately for Lincoln he cycled out of that deperession and was able to attend law school and the rest is history.
If it where not for his friend filling out the application, which today would have been called either an accomodation or supportive housing Lincoln would not have made it to law school.
Remember that next time you all are letting someone with a mental illness twist in the wind because you are lucky enough not to be sick.
Again, Lincoln would not have go started because he was symptomatic and unable to function when it was his chance to go to law school.
Symptomatic = dysfuntion
Non-symptomatic = productive life
What would you do for the next Lincoln that is sitting in a corner with racing thought about how terrible he is and how suicide his his only way out of this misery?
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No, that's not what I'm talking about. And I don't think you're talking about anything like the majority. I'm talking about little kids who are generally happy, active, healthy little kids most of the time EXCEPT when they're in the classroom. In the classroom, they fail to act like those other quiet, shy, submissive kids. This makes some adults very uncomfortable. So the adults pretend that the kid is disordered so they can go on imposing rediculously out of line demands on their charges w/ impunity.
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
John F. Kennedy
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Executive Mansion
Washington, December 23, 1862.
Dear Fanny
It is with deep grief that I learn of the death of your kind and brave Father; and, especially, that it is affecting your young heart beyond what is common in such cases. In this sad world of ours, sorrow comes to all; and, to the young, it comes with bitterest agony, because it takes them unawares. The older have learned to ever expect it. I am anxious to afford some alleviation of your present distress. Perfect relief is not possible, except with time. You can not now realize that you will ever feel better. Is not this so? And yet it is a mistake. You are sure to be happy again. To know this, which is certainly true, will make you some less miserable now. I have had experience enough to know what I say; and you need only to believe it, to feel better at once. The memory of your dear Father, instead of an agony, will yet be a sad sweet feeling in your heart, of a purer and holier sort than you have known before.
Please present my kind regards to your afflicted mother.
Your sincere friend
A. Lincoln
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:question:
"Abe Lincoln was 28 years old and wholly self-taught. He had almost no formal education at all. He never attended high school, college or law school, and was never apprenticed to a lawyer," he added.
On Dec. 3, 1839, Lincoln was one of six lawyers admitted to practice in federal courts. Among others were Stephen A. Douglas and Samuel H. Treat, both of whom later served on the Supreme Court.
Treat also was a U.S. District Court judge, and Douglas, the "Little Giant" who debated with Lincoln, left the bench to serve in the U.S. House and Senate.
Mills spoke of David Davis, admitted in 1839 to federal practice at age 24. As president in 1862, Lincoln appointed Davis to the U.S. Supreme Court, where he served until 1877 and was elected to the Senate. In 1884, Davis became the seventh president of the Illinois State Bar Association.
"Abraham Lincoln has, in sum, left a legacy of superb and incomparable legal ability," Mills said. Davis said Lincoln "had few equals," and Breeze regarded him as "the finest lawyer I ever knew."
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On 2005-09-16 12:36:00, Antigen wrote:
"No, that's not what I'm talking about. And I don't think you're talking about anything like the majority. I'm talking about little kids who are generally happy, active, healthy little kids most of the time EXCEPT when they're in the classroom. In the classroom, they fail to act like those other quiet, shy, submissive kids. This makes some adults very uncomfortable. So the adults pretend that the kid is disordered so they can go on imposing rediculously out of line demands on their charges w/ impunity.
Oopsa! I missed your point completely.
Thanks for correcting me, and I agree with you, obviously ...
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On 2005-09-16 12:38:00, Deborah wrote:
"Executive Mansion
Washington, December 23, 1862.
Dear Fanny
It is with deep grief that I learn of the death of your kind and brave Father; and, especially, that it is affecting your young heart beyond what is common in such cases. In this sad world of ours, sorrow comes to all; and, to the young, it comes with bitterest agony, because it takes them unawares. The older have learned to ever expect it. I am anxious to afford some alleviation of your present distress. Perfect relief is not possible, except with time. You can not now realize that you will ever feel better. Is not this so? And yet it is a mistake. You are sure to be happy again. To know this, which is certainly true, will make you some less miserable now. I have had experience enough to know what I say; and you need only to believe it, to feel better at once. The memory of your dear Father, instead of an agony, will yet be a sad sweet feeling in your heart, of a purer and holier sort than you have known before.
Please present my kind regards to your afflicted mother.
Your sincere friend
A. Lincoln "
Yes, Lincoln describes grief perfectly here.
I think we where talking about mental illness.
Two different things.
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On 2005-09-16 12:58:00, Deborah wrote:
" :question:
???
I will find that info I posted about Lincoln being
helped out while depressed, and post it.
Not today, too busy ...
Thanks for your post though, it give me motivation
to read up on ole Abe once again.
Later ...