Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: FueLaw on August 07, 2005, 08:39:00 PM
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First, I will give you credit for having the guts to post on this website.
However, some of the stuff you said simply is not true. I was physically beaten by you and Robert Chun in 1973 and 1974 in the Seed. The beatings took place at the old Tropical Park Race track facility and on State Road 84. When interviewed by a reporter several years ago Chun admitted it when confronted with the allegations.
In addition to being physically beaten you also tried to mentally destroy me on a number of occassions. You were not qualified to do what you were doing. You had no training, and like many of you colleagues on staff, were way more pathetic than the people you were attempting to help.
The Seed was based on a bunch of lies and falacies. Low rent maggots, such as yourself, perpretrated those lies on our parents and anyone else who would actually listen to your garbage. Our parents were scared and the slime that was on staff played on their fears. Most of us were to young to defend ourselves. The ones who fought, such as myself, paid dearly. If I knew then what I now know about the law I would own your worthless ass forever.
You can say whatever you want about what you and the other scumbags who were on staff did during your years in the Seed but the bottom line is that you were more full of shit than almost any human being who ever trod the face of the earth.You had an ego the size of the Grand Canyon. Nothing that you and Art Barker predicted would happen ever came to pass. Whenever a government entity or newspaper investigated the Seed, gutless cowards such as yourself and Barker, ran for cover.
I found the parts of your post very humorous. Prticularly the part about you and the other imcompetent morons thinking that Straight was dangerous. I guess a bunch of fried out junkies trying to pretend they knew what they were doing, and running a rehab, was completely safe.
[ This Message was edited by: on 2005-08-07 17:51 ]
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I think it important to note that Fuelaw is not now some worthless Junkie with an axe to grind because he "Failed the seed":, but instead a seed graduate, a florida lawyer, registered with the florida bar, and currently in practice in South Florida.
Believe him or not, but do not dismiss him as a failure. He is not.
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John, If there was anything I could have done to stop the constant brow-beating you know I wuld have my first open meeting. Thank you. I understand you had a brother you could not save andI was a punk kid and didnot want to grow up. I find no fault with your treatment with me as a Seedling and I hope you can quit drinking someday comepletly on your own. I'm sober. Haven't touched drugs that are illicit for years but currently I'm a prisoner of war, and government property and I'm a full grown man with a white beard at age 45. I have a lot of money but I'm sedated thanks to the American KGB. I run my own music studio and have done several music projects since I got away. The only thing nice you EVER had to say to me was..."You're off your program". Ideed I learned from every single one of you staff members but you see. I wasn't conning it. I was there 8 months. Aas much as I hated getting sick pulling up to that warehouse every damned day. I learned to live with the isolation. I'm still a loner. I still go9 by th rules. Screw the programming crap all I ever go by is the 6th step now. Dennis knew. You see I did change. But became very worldy and scared rthe Hell out of my parents who came out to a club to hear me play oe ight and some other asshole had me thrown in straight. I escaped the next day. Don't ask me how, I never knew I could run so fast. I got a mustard tree in my back yard John. I grew it from a seed out of the kitchen. Ii'm also a Cold war vet and DHS person and other things I don'thave to tell you. except Thank you or disgracing me. I was a piece of shit and needed to be treated appropriately or I'd never be alive today. I think Nick isstill alive too. and Dennis and artie? Where are they. I thought they were going out to make the history books. Mmy oh my but I didn't even know I was a commie til I got on here. Nnow I'm just a Socialist. But still on the payroll. I've otten out of the VA completly. Died several times.Torchured. beaten, Had to fightv ib some places where my life was endangered but you know it was that little bit of faith I learned and Dennis letures that freed my mind. Also scripture that was encouraged by Dennis. The only book I ever read in my whole life for the first time was the bible and I studied it. Alas, the KGB took over and now I even have to battle the Red Skull every night. Yousee YOU never knew I was bought by my parents nd I was a Jew slave. Did you? Well I was raised bible. Ii don't like religion but I've faith in God now and I believe in Christ Jesus. Thank you. That's all I have to say..I was only 14 years old.I had to grw up quick. Before I met you I was going to stores and stealing just to cloth and feed myself. I was a street person. My arents were poor but too proudfor welfare and thety were NEVER around. YOU ALL were my parents. Nnow it still hurts ok? I'll be honest with you it still hurts from there. I've bigger problems than that to conquor. If I couldn't make peace with you on this I guess I'll just see you some other time, some other place. But I can forgive you because I know you couldn't save your younger brother. But you ALL taught me how to survive. Go be our witness. I don't even know you. But for Christ's sake I'm not a guy anymre. I'm a man now. I find no fault with this man John Underwood. I expect you all to just forget about all this bullshit and get even crap right now. ok? The games over. Stop doing this to him right now.Peace :smokin: friend.
I don't go lookin' for trouble. I just keep a little in a box should someone come by who is.
--Bill Warbis
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Just because someone is a lawyer, means absolutly nothing to me. Actually the fue guy sorry, fuelaw sounds a bit pompous to me. I believe that there were alot of caring individuals at the Seed.
Sure some of the staff had huge egos and were not profesionals but they gave a shit. I felt cared for and looked after. It taught me to reach out and care about others. Thats what counts for something in my book. They tried to make a difference and did in my life. I thank them for that, John Underwood included. I know he went out of his way to help me.
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Sorry for the short post, I've got those life responsibilities to attend too (work).
FueLaw and The Root Of Jesse, could you post more on your life? I know its painful, but I, for one, really want to hear more.
-- John (John Ft. Pierce not Underwood)
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Anon,
Surely you do not mean to say that Fuelaw is lying. What makes his statement any less valid than your comments about the same person? Why do you feel the need to (1) disparage his accomplishments and (2) call him pompous? Could it be that you have bought into yet another mindset?
Why are YOU unable to step away from your hero worship mindset long enough to consider the possibilites?
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I'm sorry. Did you not have any hero's in your life? John Underwood could also be pompous at times, but I still liked him for giving a shit about me when I needed some help & kindness.
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On 2005-08-08 06:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Just because someone is a lawyer, means absolutly nothing to me.
I only mentioned it to preclude a barrage of "druggie seed failure" type posts.
Whether you believe this occured or not is entirely a function of your brain. It would be nice to hear John's side of the story tho...
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On 2005-08-07 22:27:00, The Root Of Jesse wrote:
I got a mustard tree in my back yard John. I grew it from a seed out of the kitchen.
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sure you did...sure you did....
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
One of the funnier things about the mustard tree symbol we used, mustard doesn't grow trees, it grows on plants.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustard#Mustard_plants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustard#Mustard_plants)
the source of this incorrect symbolism comes from a very inaacurate source...the christian bible.
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On 2005-08-08 07:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'm sorry. Did you not have any hero's in your life? John Underwood could also be pompous at times, but I still liked him for giving a shit about me when I needed some help & kindness. "
I serously doubt you are sorry, and sure I've had "heros" in my life. But answer my questions. What makes Fuelaw's statments any less valid than JU's or yours?
Don't you see what you are doing to me and Fuelaw? It's the same old seed trick. I make a valid point, and the response is not to reply to it but instead to question or somehow show me as deficient or lacking (not having heros) and then, hopefuly, you will have put me on the defense and direct or deflect the conversation topic away from you. It's an old trick and I doubt you even know you are doing it. I've seen it many times with my less evolved Seed friends -which I do have. Sorry, but I don't play like that any more. It's not fun and it's pointless.
I'm glad that you felt cared for there. You must have gotten what you needed from them. My take on the whole seed expereince is different: it CRUSHED compassion & kindness and replaced those very important assets with a deep a sense of worhtlessness,guilt and fear. I think this was the result because I was NEVER and addict and my parents were conned into dumping us there by the junkie-con staff members and Art Barker. There was more than one kind of seed experience.
And for the record, I am an attorney, too. If there was a way to sue the these bastards for the blatant misrepresentations, frauds and cruelties, I would be helping Fuelaw and putting my own money into the case. It's not a matter of holding grudges or not moving on; it's a matter of accountablitiy. We all have to be accountable eventually. Even the heros.
Sorry for the numerous edits - I never mastered typing....
[ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-08-08 08:26 ][ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-08-08 08:26 ][ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-08-08 08:29 ]
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First, to Anon why am I pompus ? I am not saying that other people were beat I am saying I was beat. I am also naming the people that did it. In an interview with a reporter several years ago Robert Chun acknowledged it. Will John Underwood do the same ?
The fact that I am a lawyer today has nothing to do with the fact that I, along with thousands of others, were mentally abused by scum of the earth maggots like Robert Chun and John Underwood.
Second, to John_Ft.Pierce, I moved an old post or thread back to the top. You begins with "Hello Everybody"
[ This Message was edited by: FueLaw on 2005-08-08 09:08 ]
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I haven't posted for several weeks, but I think it would be appropriate since I have been hearing the name JU from the time I was 17 years old, but never had the pleasure of meeting the person. This way I can read his posts and at least get a better idea of what he was/is like through his own words versus the second hand memories that I heard about him for over 20 years. I still remember hearing his name sprinkled in raps, often his name would emerge as part of some oldtimer's nostalgic picture of the "old days." I never heard anything negative about him, perhaps certan inner circle members knew about the confrontation between L. and JU, but it was never public group knowledge from 1980-2000+.
As I have posted in previous posts, I walked into that group in 1980. I was associated with that group much longer than JU or many others as I stayed for over 20 years, until the day it closed and beyond. . .up to the final days that ended in the "great dramatic divide," where followers were pulled between AB's army or LK's army. Of course, the "apocalyptic event" exploded a la White House Inner Circle style,(like everything else in that group), where first the privileged (JU would have probably been one of them had he "stuck it out" as some of us more ignorant idiots did for so many years) were informed of issues the group was having and then later the lower ranks would get the handmedown version of the great tragedy. The lower ranks were kept as outsiders, actually staff hoped they would not find out what was coming down. The lower ranks got to find out bits and pieces as the story mounted to a volcano. I personally was told, "there are problems at the s--d," but never was I told "the truth about some of these problems is that we caused them because we should have been honest a long time ago and now we have to cover our asses."
Bottom line the key persons on both sides (and there were several key players) forgot the first and most important rule" or "never learned it". . .you know the one about HONESTY, so they also forgot to have the decency to fill-in all the lower rank people, such as myself, about the problems at the s--d. To this day, not one of them has ever apologized for a truly hurting situation that they created out of selfishness and greed.
I was a graduate but never on staff, though many times close to the inner circle, not a part of it. . my story goes on for over 20 years, not just 6 of my post-adolescent years. In my opinion, JU to his credit, got out when he realized that L. was on her way up (she did, after, all reign unquestionably to the end). I must say I do respect JU for at least he recognized the inevitable truth that all were not created equal witin the walls of st. rd. 84. . . especially cause that was only the beginning. Basically, many of us, if not about 90+% of the people that stuck around through the 80's, 90's, and beginning 2000, lived in complete obedience not only to AB, but to L. There was no questioning L. about anything at any time. If she said jump, we definately jumped, for many, many, many years, not just 6.
It would have been interesting, however, to see how long JU would have stayed had he gone along and allowed L. to truly dominate as she did for over 20 years. Would he have still not lost sight of the so-called dream, which by the way any virtues that I was exposed to in that group certainly exist, and more so, in major religions and smaller groups of people that promote brotherhood, courage, friendship, and love. Unfortunately, many there had there eye on much more than these virtues.
JU is right. He knew better and did not stick around for the era of where one or two were destined and blessed to become lawyers and doctors, but not others, several were destined and blessed to be married, but not others, some were destined and blessed to be business people, but not others. . .Others should keep a very low profile becuase you are pretty much invisible to those in power, so stay out of the way, and someone will let you know when things are different.
I personally remember feeling trapped within people who did not understand me . . .I remember many of them laughed at being gay, when I and a few others (some stayed tightly in the closet)were coming to terms with who we were. . i remember being told at 17 "Oh, don't worry about being gay, we can all relate to being gay before we came in. . .it's no big deal. . .it will go away, concentrate on the important stuff. . .what's being said in the group." And then 20 years went by and I had repressed everything so deep that it has been in the last several years of my life that I feel free to be who I really am inside--true to me. Also. the constant anxiety and paranoia has stopped, the cramps in my stomach from years of living in fear of when would I be told off for being so full of shit, for fantasizing, daydreaming, wanting so much more and so many different goals than the boring, unmotivating options staff offered anytime I had to listen to their advise on what to do with my life. Thank God I stopped listening. Ultimately, I did do my own thing in terms of career and ignored staff's blatant disapproval (or was it jealousy) of how how high and how far I could shine for me. The funny part about it is that I always made sure to thank them every step of the way. . but that was not enough for them.
Sadly, I guess I was one of the weaker ones (back then), unlike JU who had the courage to stand up to them way back when he was only there for six years. I COULD NOT FIND THE STRENGTH AT 17 AND BEYOND TO STAND UP TO THEM BECAUSE I WAS AFRAID THAT IF I WENT AGAINST THEM I WOULD SHATTER MY PARENTS' HEARTS WHO HAD PAID IN 1980 WHATEVER THEY COULD TO MAKE ME STARIGHT -- BOTH SEXUALLY AND DRUG WISE. JU did not invest 2 decades of his life into a group that really did not, at least, post 80's know what true love really was. Snitching, humiliating, discriminating, and certainly very good at trying to "read people like a book" for the purpose of power playing and conquering. Yes, there were some good things about the 20 plus years I was there. If I did not reconcile the good with the bad, I would be totally empty inside because I cannot erase all those years and the emotional and psychological impression they had on me. I do recognize, however, that the perspectives of soemone who was on staff for 6 years are very different than someone who really did grow up at The Seed. Unfortuantely, I was also sheltered way beyond JU and only started to gain real independence after it all fell apart. I do not resent JU or any other person who worked at that place simply because I do beleive that they thought what they were involved in was right. I still wonder how my life might have been different if I had had the courage that JU describes. . .instead i really just waited whether it was in the warehouse or back on Andrew's house for the last and final round.
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One of the things I can remember very clearly is in the end just before I decided to leave the Seed was the overwhelming frustration I felt. The realization of my own inability to make my own decisions and how much control I had relinquished in my day to day life. I was often told not too worry that things would work out for the best and things would fall into place. As I grew in my perception I began to (dare I say) see the weakness around me. I began to realize that people that professed that they were a part of the group out of strength and loyalty and gratitude were actually completely weak and dependent on this group.
Even as the group had a firm gripe on my persona my frustration turned to anger, I tried to suppress these overwhelming feelings (How could I walk away from the people that saved me and loved me so much? Where would I fit into a world that would not accept me or love me?) But, I just could not keep my frustration in check. At the time I was convinced that something must be terrible wrong with me and that I needed to find out why I was being so irrational and SELFISH.
It took me a long time even after I walked away from the Seed to realize how twisted things had become. The whole point was to rehabilate people to function within the world not to hide from the world in some pseudo utopian bullshit ideal. It took me a while to give myself permission to question my experience at the Seed and find fault with some of what was taught to me as absolute truth.
Over-all the ideas were sound and true what was flawed was the human execution of these ideas. The personal ambition of some perverted the good and in the end destroyed their little world. It makes me sad to see people who are good people picking up the pieces to their lives trying to make sense of all that happened. I guess some people can argue that it was their fault for not having the insight or courage to walk away sooner but I?m not in that group. I have personal experience of the gripe the Seed could get on someone and how hard it was to actually walk away.
The Seed was a bitter sweet experience in my life that taught me great things but at a price, but than again almost everything in life is bittersweet.
To compare my experience at the Seed to that of a POW or a survivor of a gulag would be a great disservice to all those who actually did service those horrible places and would only attest my own self weakness.
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80s Guy...you were much braver that JU, who from his position of relative privelege, was able to talk back to L, and to question AB. Even today, rereading his post, he designates anyone who questions the 'dream' of the Seed as weak, as if the only issue where 'hard chairs and baloney sandwiches.' In spite of his obvious intellegence, and his courage for posting here, he is missing the essential point. And note, he has not responded (yet) to anyone who has answered his post. Will he?
You and I, on the other hand, were low-caste members of the Seed. You know, we were taught that meekness and unquestioning obedience to authority were strengths; unquestioning loyalty was expected, and we be and large gave it. There is something beautiful about sacrifice, simplicity and obedience - I worked to achieive a Zen-like state, but as usual, some of those in power used our submission to further their own ends, whether it was career, relationships or ego. How different was this from Catholic Bishops, or political figures, or even the 'popular' kid in high school? It is human nature, but those in power cannot admit that they are in that position by happenstance and luck to a large degree.
The Seed did not empower us as fully functional human beings. I know there are those here, and I respect them, who feel different, who feel that the Seed saved them, changed their life, and taught them lessons. It did that for me as well. But I am right to question, to ask probing and embarrasing questions - after all, I gave everything for many years and asked for nothing in return, except the love I was told would be mine.
So, you are the hero, for trying to be true to an ideal, even at great personal cost. You weren't in it for power, or status, or to be better than everyone. You did it cause you thought it was right. And then you had the courage, slowly, to grow into the person you are. I would challenge anyone to deny you your humanity.
The Seed distorted the nature of 'honesty;' you have done your best to live it.
John Underwood was a name I always heard, as a leader. I respect him for posting here now but I wonder if he can take on some criticism, or does he still see that as weakness? Was he the only one free to question?
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I distinctly remember John and being very afraid of his presense and power. Suzie Connors was the designated Head of the St Pete Seed but John Said and did whatever he wanted and really was the acting boss of the place. When Art came he just baffooned and grandstanded his way around the place. Once he left it was JU, Suzie, Cliff and Libby we answered to and feared.
Johns seed experience experience was a real one but it was his, not mine. Unlike john who credits idealistic life lessons to the seed, I was scared, humiliated, belittled and wounded there. The seed stunted my emotional growth for years and caused me to hate authority and lose my family. That is not sour grapes. John was a big part of that process...IE my humiliation and fear, but I do not blame him. I do not blame anyone. What happened happened and as Ginger said, it was errors born out of good intentions.
I do believe that, and anyone harmed during or by the seed i hope they too can bury the pain and compartmentalize the experience.
I have come to appreciate many people who vehemently disagree with me on this issue. I too have grown from this website and now can converse with people like JU, talk and laugh, argue and make points/counterpoints, and leave a conversation feeling much better for the experience. After John and I talked the other day I think we both took something very valuable from the experience. I hope he feels the same way.
Man I would love to have the same experience with Libby or Art. I would just love to talk to those guys adult to adult. In the past it was really me approaching the issue from the vantage point of a hurt 14 year old and that is why I lashed out at Art barker when I saw him some 25 years ago. I am so happy to be able to let go of that anger. I wish it for everyone who endured, survived, graduated, ran from or otherwise departed from one of these programs.
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Greg -The one we referred to was the mustard seed of the old testament, I quote from the link below:
The mustard seed of the Bible lands is about 10 times smaller than the mustard seed in America and the west. It is a very tiny dark seed that is so small that if you were to get it in your eye you would hardly notice it. It truly is the "least of all seeds." The mustard plant that grows from this seed is also different from the western mustard plant. The Bible lands mustard plant grows into a tree the size of a fruit tree. To believe God is to act upon His Word. Belief is a small thing that produces great results just as the tiny mustard seed produces a great tree.
The sycamine fig tree in the Bible lands is a tree with a tremendous root system that is deep and holds the tree tightly to the ground. Sometimes our own problems and needs may seem deep rooted and immovable. Yet, when we have belief in the word of God, "as a grain of mustard seed, " our deep rooted problems will be plucked up from the roots and cast into the sea. Nothing is impossible for God!
http://www.redbay.com/ekklesia/gladmust.htm (http://www.redbay.com/ekklesia/gladmust.htm)
As you can see this was a pretty apt analogy for what "The Seed " was trying to "plant"
Chris Lewis
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that is a bullshit justification from a religious website for the fact that all mustard seeds grow are bushes/plants. Nowhere will you find an actual tree.
Read the actual passage from the bible...
32Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
Now think about the old seed shirt with the little seed and the giant tree.
Now recognize the FACT that mustard seeds come from a plant, not a tree. The plant is an ANNUAL, and if you know anything about plants you will recognize immediately the ridiculous notion of this plant being a tree.
here is another link
http://www.culinarycafe.com/Spices_Herb ... ed%20.html (http://www.culinarycafe.com/Spices_Herbs/Mustard_Seed%20.html)
to wit:
General Description
Mustard Seed comes from two large shrubs, Brassica juncea (brown mustard) and Brassica hirta (white mustard), native to Asia. Both plants produce bright yellow flowers that contain small round seeds;
History/Region of Origin
Mustard was used in ancient Greece and Rome as a medicine and a flavoring. By 800 AD, the French were using Mustard as an enhancement for drab meals and salted meats.
and a description of the "tree" ( :grin: )
Plant Description and Cultivation
An erect herbaceous annual. The white variety (B. alba) is hardy, growing to 80 cm (30 in), with hairy stems and lobed leaves. The bright yellow flowers yield hairy fruit pods, 2.5 - 5 cm (1-2 in) long, each containing about six seeds.
Black mustard (B. nigra) is a larger plant than the white, reaching to 1 m (39 in). Some varieties reach double this height. The flowers are smaller, as are the fruit pods at 2 cm (3/4 in) long. The pods are smooth and bulging, containing about a dozen seeds. Because of its height black mustard does not lend itself well to mechanical harvesting and since the seed is readily shed when ripe, there is too much waste for most commercial growers. As a result it has almost completely been replaced by the brown variety.
Brown mustard (B. juncea) is similar to black mustard in size. It is the rai of India. The leaves are ovate and the pods are 3 -5 cm (1-1/4 to 2 in) long.
Mustard pods must be harvested before they burst, that is when they are nearly fully developed but not ripe.
Hate to burst your bubble. This "parable" is akin to the bible calling bats birds..which it does.
The funny part is it was never challenged. The name of the seed was taken from an erroneous ancient parable that was based on a falsity.
Our giant "Mustard Tree" is actually an annual edible plant that reaches at its peak from 1 to 9 feet high depending on the variety and then it is harvested annually...ie; killed. NO tree. Sorry.
Ahh, I think I'll cook me a batch o mustard greens and contemplate how this fits into all the other bullshit we bought hook line and sinker.
:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
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not to mention the previous poster claiming to have a Mustard tree in his backyard from a common kitchen mustard seed.
This annual edible "tree" would grow to about 1 or 2 feet high and make an excellent salad.
:grin:
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention...mustard plants are in the genus Brassica which includes Cabbage, cauliflower and Turnips.
I like my Mustard "tree" greens by boiling some smoked turkey neck first, then adding cut onion and pepper.
Try it!
:grin: :grin: :grin:
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I bow to your additional (& abundant) research, but as I said, analogy... you know symbolism... I think trying to somehow belittle the concept of the mustard seed based on the arguement that the symbol for the seed was actually a plant is kinda ridiculous, I mean you could argue it's really a weed dude...
CL
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I think it's just very apropos.
Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change.
--Anonymous
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On 2005-08-09 08:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I mean you could argue it's really a weed dude...
CL"
You could if it wasn't for the fact that it is an annual food crop...
The seed indeed. Raise us from a little seedling to big ole tree...er I mean a batch of Mustard greens.
:grin:
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If this gets into bible stuff, then was it a religous cult or a drug rehab cult?
Too funny: that the debate is whether it's a bush or a tree. :grin:
Here's the difinitve answer regarding the whole mustard seed reference - Book of Matther Chapter 31 (copied from "ChrisitanAnswers" on the web. Take it for what it's worth:
Please note that Jesus was not comparing the mustard seed to all other seeds in the world, but to seeds that a local, Palestinian farmer might have "sowed in his field," i.e., a key qualifying phrase in verse 31. And it's absolutely true that the black mustard seed (Brassica nigra = Sinapis nigra) was the smallest seed ever sown by a first-century farmer in that part of the world.
It's also true, as many modern-day encyclopedias will tell you, that the black mustard seed in Israel will typically grow to heights of 3.7 meters, or twelve (12) feet) -- plenty large enough to hold a bird nest.
BACK TO ME: So the bush/tree debate is much like the continuous debate we have - good seed vs. bad seed foundations...
I suppose it's all how the bird or seedling perceives the place where he wants to build his nest. If it looks like a bush and the bird thinks it's a bush, then for that bird, it's a bush and probably not a good, safe place to build his nest.
Similarly, if it looks like a tree and the bird thinks it's a tree, then the bird obviously feels safe enough to build his nest there.
See the analogy here between us seedlings, the nest and the birds?
Still no answer, though, is there?
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Its becomming hard to see the forest through the mustard trees. :rofl:
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no doubt that was copied from "christian answers". 12 feet is an exageration and again...it is an ANNUAL crop, not a tree.
here is a description from Botanicals.com of "black mustard plants....just to settle this.
Habitat---The Black Mustard grows throughout Europe, except in the north-eastern parts, also in South Siberia, Asia Minor and Northern Africa, and is naturalized in North and South America. It is largely cultivated in England, Holland, Italy, Germany and elsewhere for the sake of the seed, used partly as a condiment, and partly for its oil.
---Description---It is an erect annual, 3 feet or more in height, with smaller flowers than the White Mustard. The spear-shaped, upper leaves, linear, pointed, entire and smooth, and the shortly-beaked pods, readily distinguish it from the former species. The smooth, erect flattened pods, each provided with a short slender beak, contain about ten to twelve dark reddish-brown or black seeds, which are collected when ripe and dried. They are about half the size of White Mustard seeds, but possess similar properties. The seedcoat is thin and brittle and covered with minute pits. Like the White Mustard, the seeds are inodorous, even when powdered, though a pungent odour is noticeable when moistened with water, owing to the formation of volatile oil of Mustard, which is colourless or pale yellow, with an intensely penetrating odour and a very acrid taste.
....The Black Mustard is said to have been employed by the Romans as a green vegetable. The young leaves may be eaten as salad in place of those of the White variety, but are more pungent.
What you see on the internet by SOME (not all christians) is an attempt to make the scripture fit facts. They attribute it to other plants..they exagerate the size, they leave off pertinent information (the plant is an annual food crop). IF you poke around a bit, you will find christians that this topic really concerns that don't set out to justify innacuracies in the bible.
Up next, why is a bat a bird? :grin:
Nevermind. Any more discussion on this should be moved. We have effectively hijacked the thread. The whole thing started by a poster claiming he has a Mustard tree in his back yard, grown from a mustard seed from his kitchen.
The poignant question is why would he feel the need to lie?
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Oh because you personally know him it could not be a lie? Sounds like you've totally bought into it hook line and sinker.
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On 2005-08-09 11:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
I suppose it's all how the bird or seedling perceives the place where he wants to build his nest. If it looks like a bush and the bird thinks it's a bush, then for that bird, it's a bush and probably not a good, safe place to build his nest.
Similarly, if it looks like a tree and the bird thinks it's a tree, then the bird obviously feels safe enough to build his nest there.
See the analogy here between us seedlings, the nest and the birds?
Yes, precisely! It takes a good dose of credulity w/ a pinch of fantasy to remember The Seed in the glowing, happy way that some of you do. In order to remember it as having been all about honesty and integrity, you have to forget the myriad lies; 99% success rate, it was all invented by Art and based entirely on AA, a tiny little 16yo w/ a $1k/day h habit, marijuana is a gateway drug, "druggie attitudes" can be cured w/ the same bogus treatment as we use for heroin addiction. Never mind the many lies used to trick kids into going in the first place. How many ppl found out years after the fact that there never had been any damned court order? Oh, how about this pervasive gut buster "My name is _____, I'm a druggie, the drugs I did were pot, THC, this, that, the other thing I heard that other kid say..." etc.
Anyone here ever even seen THC? Was I the only one in the room who understood at the time that THC is a compotant of cannabis? That it never was avaiable as a seperate street drug?
Oh, and right down the line, the big, big lie; "I'd be deadinsaneorinjail w/o the Program" Bullshit! I'd likely have gone to college if Art hadn't spent my inheritance on his nifty real estate investments. Thanks, Art! Ya' fucker!
So, in summary, you're right about the logo. It's not a terribly important detail. Lots of organizations use symbolic logos and imagry. But you must admit that it is very apropos that this particular organization's chosen logo is based on a myth.
But the other important question; why does this guy feel the need to lie about it? I can't answer that. Why does he do anything that he does.
They serve so that we don't have to. They offer to give up their lives so that we can be free. It is, remarkably, their gift to us. And all they ask for in return is that we never send them into harm's way unless it is absolutely necessary. Will they ever trust us again?
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
return undef() if /coercion/i;
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post deleted for personal attack:
Reminder: The SDF does not allow direct insultive posting for the sake of just insulting another person.
GregFL
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Damn! Can you be a little more of a prick? I think I liked the cammo clad bull dyke image better. But no. I'm in shorts and a t-shirt. Just back from taking the kid to the doctor for a bad case of poison ivy. Come to think of it, I'm litterally a soccer mom w/ a mini van.
Are you quaking and shaking at the thought of people criticizing your vaunted cult and being allowed to roam free? That's how I picture you.
History does not record anywhere or at any time a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unkonwn without help. But, like dandruff, most people do have a religion and spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable pleasure from fiddling with it.
--Robert A. Heinlen, American science-ficiton author
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
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WHOSE calling the kettle Black Antigen? You're all freemasonary anti-Christs on this site. Now enter your little deceptive quotation.
This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.
--John Adams, U.S. President
"Jesus came not to send peace but a sword" The Real SEED was sown thousands of years ago. Man in blue. Take action.
_________________
"Mine Eyes have seen the Glory of The Coming Of The Lord"[ This Message was edited by: The Root Of Jesse on 2005-08-09 14:04 ]
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hey "root of Jesse" ...go cut me some Mustard greens off the "tree"...Im hungry!
:grin: :grin:
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You rave against the Seed with the same zeal that your mother must of had we she forced all the Seed (Straight) dogma down your throat.
I guess the mustard seed did not fall far from the tree or bush.
Hey Anon,
Any type of fundamentalist especially those of a religious nature have done nothing more than to promote ignorance, intolerance and in my opinion are responsible for much of the evil that prevails in today?s world.
One of the problems I used to have with the Seed was I did not wish to look at the world in such black and white terms. Not all my old friends were evil and not all of them plotted for my eventual down fall so that they could justify their misguided lives. Not everything that Art or Staff said was infallible or perfect. Art was not a god.
On the same hand I do not think my time at the Seed was filled with underhanded manipulations or that the Seed was part of this great government conspiracy to control the minds of America?s youth to create some kind of secret society that can be easily controlled and molded or that I was completely used by ambitious self serving social climbing status and wealth seekers that had nothing but their well-being in mind.
Here are some facts about the Seed: 1- The Government money dried up in the early to mid 70?s when strings came attached with the Government funding. The reason for this was Art refused to take any money from the government because he refused to relinquish any type of control over the Seed. He felt this was his brain child and no one would take that away from him. There would be no government psychiatrist neither from the State or Federal agency allowed into the Seed. Every once in a while Art would go into the group and talk about this.
Art hated the republicans party primarily because around 1972 or 73 the Seed was audited by the feds. He always blamed this for a comment he had made and support he had given to Sen., Edwin Mouskie during a failed run for the White House. Art held the plumbers from the Nixon White house personally responsible for a smear campaign against the Seed and himself. There was nothing that Art resented more than government interference with the Seed his anger many times was pointed against the republican conservatives . I never once saw him break allegiance with the Democratic Party.
Could all of this been a gross exaggeration of events in order to feed into his monster ego and over emphasis the importance of the Seed program.
From the lets say the mid 70?s on the Seed survive on donations from Seed families private institutions and Seed kids. This money was more than enough during the mid 70?s when there were 1000 kids on the program but the money soon started drying up as the amount of new comers dwindled. In the early 80?s in a good year he Seed might have taken 10 new comers a year and the core group of long timers or old comers shrank to about 80 people. That group shrank more and more with each passing year.
The Seed stopped taking minors in or around 1986 because of all the accusations that were going on at the time about all the child molestations in the day care centers around that time. The State past a law that required all people working with minors such as day cares or rehabs etc. had to submit criminal back ground checks. Art refused to give the State that luxury not to mention that many of the old comers did have criminal records. The State also required certain bureaucratic procedures along with this law and Art decided that all new comers had to be at least 18 years old. Keep in mind that as the core group grew older so did most of the new comers. The face of the Seed had changed it was no longer a program catering to minors but to people in their 20?s to 60?s some even older.
All these things that I have stated are based on my personal observations and conversations and talks with Art and other Seed graduates during my years at the Seed.
I really have no reason to lie or defend or accuse. I post and read on this sight basically to help myself and to clear some of my unresolved issues with the Seed with people that experienced the same place I did.
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On 2005-08-09 16:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
Could all of this been a gross exaggeration of events in order to feed into his monster ego and over emphasis the importance of the Seed program.
Got a simpler explanation? I don't. Occam's razor says...... YES!
Faith is believing something you know ain't true.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
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thanks for the info!
Who were you directing the initial biting remark to? If it is me I would respectfully like to point out it is in fact "BUSH".
:grin:
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quote:On the same hand I do not think my time at the Seed was filled with underhanded manipulations or that the Seed was part of this great government conspiracy to control the minds of America?s youth to create some kind of secret society that can be easily controlled and molded or that I was completely used by ambitious self serving social climbing status and wealth seekers that had nothing but their well-being in mind.
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No one has said that. In fact,most posts here readily admit the seed was good intentions gone bad. I believe that, coupled with an egomaniac cult leader thats impression of his own self importance was truly outlandish. Tie that all in with dangerous cultic mind control methods that most people didn't even understand..including the staff. Apparently many of them still don't understand the fire they were playing with..only that it "changed" the kids rapidly.
You should know however that the federal government had indeed done studies at the synanon and funded many synanon type rehabs thruout the nation...yes including the Seed and later Straight, Inc.
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quote: The Government money dried up in the early to mid 70?s when strings came attached with the Government funding. The reason for this was Art refused to take any money from the government because he refused to relinquish any type of control over the Seed. He felt this was his brain child and no one would take that away from him. There would be no government psychiatrist neither from the State or Federal agency allowed into the Seed. Every once in a while Art would go into the group and talk about this.
-----------------------------
there is more to the story than that. The congress issued a report indicting The Seed specifically for using Korean style brainwashing techniques and recommended that consent forms be signed by all enrollees that they were subjecting themselves to experimental treatment..ie. Art hit the roof because he knew this would be the end of the endless stream of profitable kids coming in...who in their right mind would sign that form? Think about it. Art as usual put his own spin on it and claimed it was for the good of the seed.
I appreciate that you don't feel a need to defend or accuse. Some people may have deeper issues they are trying to resolve. Were you here when Big Frank used to post? Well, unfortunately he never was able to resolve all his issues before he died.
Lets join together and wish everyone who posts here resolve and happiness. We are a community, even if once in a while things get a little snippy...
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On 2005-08-09 17:17:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"In no way do I intend to trivilize the Seed experience for the victims of the program. However, to me the entire program sounds so surreal that it's beyond belief. Sort of like one of those horrible 70's sci fi flicks with wires attached to the space ships, and the rubber monsters flopping around the stage.
"
that would be pretty funny...if it was original. How bout this comment from my school newpaper in 1973....
"all I know about the Seed is that when teenagers go there and come back they are just like Robots from outer space"
http://fornits.com/anonanon/images/seed.jpg (http://fornits.com/anonanon/images/seed.jpg)
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Welcome to SDF, Three Springs Waygookin. Interesting stuff, isn't it? Yes, it was a surreal trip!
What differences/similarities do you see between The Seed and the programs where you staffed?A multitude of laws in a country is like a great number of physicians, a sign of weakness and malady.
--Voltaire, philosopher (1694-1778)
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Ii suppose you don't know what that is. It worked for me yet it sems o make certain humans fictitous forever. No this is not you thought reforn tans like government secret societies. As a matter of fact their main goal is cure sane men and women. It's the American KGB and they are everywhere. No groups like before. It's called high level security psychiatric prisons and restraints and injections of drugs you don't even know what they do. These are the social reforms demanded by Gorbachav. Fortunately, I've escaped them, but there is a man on a war-horse here that has been fighting me my whole life so you want some salad. Be my guest. Most of you aren't even men and women. So stop your bitching at me. It's YOU that lost control of your government.Hhow's about a little rubber room with a little mat to sleep on forever in a seclusion room forever.......until they have to finish"digging out the dead". That's what you drug abusers are up against. no me. You are, I agree you know it's the governmental mafia that hooked you and destroyed your brain, and now they want to make you obsolite. Blood transfusions from some hispanic man saved my life. I've lived inside that man's memories for a long time. Also, a black-holed sun turned me into a colored person. Nnow the hood is full of latinos and also, they smile at me. I don't know why but I'm grateful to be black-skinned, hispanic blooded(two pints)> and a hebrew Christian and do you know they are there just waiting for you to just try to escape. I've met freemasons in hospitals also. They don't let them out either. Wwith Liberty and justice for all. Don't wory modern Psychiatry for some of you less dangerous people have secret never seen movies prescribed by doctors to watch. I's all a big fun-house. The got the Puck goat in the basin chopping veggies ino his bed before they make you dinner and guess whose for dinner if you aren't too carefull in our room lockjedup? YOU thaqt's wh. They do have air ducts that these vampires seem to be able to get through even without the staff knowing it. Yyou won't be able to sleep. Brain salad surgery has come a long way. Why it's just pushing buttons and pulling trings. There is no such thing as a mentally ill erson unless they are just plain stupid. and humans just seem o be like little artificial intelligence beings created by Satan. You want a Republic still?...........Oh here's more. It's called involuntary commitment. They've got a psychiatric prison for the criminally isane near me. You just might wind up here if you don't stop abusing dope. I's yourgovernment mafia that hooked you in the first place. Now it's their job to finish you off or let you slip into fiction until your dying day. Oh yeah watchthe TV/radio. Laugh it up. They know who you are. Nothing but setting their ducks up and knocking them down. And your constitution? It's outdated. You know just made for white supremeist and slave owners. These black militants are angry, the Russians are angry, yet ou all thinkyour lives are some kind of game or a joke. Isn't that correct? It's because you that control this board are just mere actors and anti-Crists. The Seed...........maybe a cult as I've learned, but psychiatry kills.
Peace and abstinence from European interferences are our objects, and so will continue while the present order of things in America remain uninterrupted.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Where the hell our those mustard greens like I asked you? Im hungry as hell!
:grin:
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Could you delete Antigen's coment about Art Barker Fucker you stole my inheritance, or is this factual? Or maybe pure bullshit.
::bangin::
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On 2005-08-10 05:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Could you delete Antigen's coment about Art Barker Fucker you stole my inheritance, or is this factual? Or maybe pure bullshit.
::bangin::
"
I don't do "delete post requests". Sorry. This isn't a karoake bar.
::cheers::
I consider you all my friends and hope that is reciprocated.
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Have you ever deleted Antigen's or your own posts for the same reason what you've deleted mine for?
Some how I believe you guys might be abusing your own "power" the same way you say the Seed did. Maybe Antigen wears the so called "pants" here and your not able to "do the "right thing" due to her position here. :roll:
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:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: sorry for all the smiley faces I'm just feeling kinda "groovy" right now my own self.
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"William" is often credited with making a statement to the effect of, ``if two theories explain the facts equally well then the simpler theory is to be preferred'', but see below. This principle is widely known as "Occam's Razor."
Antigen referred to "Occam's Razor" in an eariler post.
I just wanted any other "dummy's like myself to understand. :grin:
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Antigen WROTE:
So, in summary, you're right about the logo. It's not a terribly important detail. Lots of organizations use symbolic logos and imagry. But you must admit that it is very apropos that this particular organization's chosen logo is based on a myth.
Antigen, I could not agree more. That was me who wrote about the bird/bus bird/tree. But you guys are right - who cares. The fact is, the seed was based on a myth. I doubt they meant to do that, just another case of good intentions gone bad...[ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-08-10 08:58 ]
And you are right Greg, that's exactly where my google word search led me - that Christian Answers site. Like everything else in the world, its just an idea. [ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-08-10 09:00 ][ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-08-10 09:10 ]
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On 2005-08-10 06:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Have you ever deleted Antigen's or your own posts for the same reason what you've deleted mine for?
Some how I believe you guys might be abusing your own "power" the same way you say the Seed did. Maybe Antigen wears the so called "pants" here and your not able to "do the "right thing" due to her position here. :roll: "
What exactly is your beef? You know your post was over the top. Care to rephrase it and add some pertinent content? Go right ahead, but a two sentence post questioning someone's sexuality and alluding to their crotch won't stand here. Sorry, that is my rule. I, not Ginger, control content in this forum. Ginger is the one that graciously donates the bandwith. If Ginger was calling the shots here that post would have stood. I have seen people insult her far worse in unmoderated forums that she controls with nary a hickup from her.
That I control content here is why The SDF discussion forum is the ONLY moderated forum on fornits. All other forums follow a different format. I did this intentionally so people with contrary opinions would not be shouted out, like has been done in other forums. It is not perfect but the intended result has come to frution.
If Ginger posted something similar to what you did, I would take her to task for it. Believe that. However, I have known her long enough to realize that is highly unlikely.
Any more questions might I suggest a private message and a one on one conversation?
GregFL
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On 2005-08-10 06:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
" :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: sorry for all the smiley faces I'm just feeling kinda groovy right now my own self."
Where did you meet "Kinda Groovy"?
:grin: :grin: :grin:
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UH OH -- sounds like a sexual comment :grin:
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On 2005-08-10 07:28:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
I just wanted any other "dummy's like myself to understand.
That's exactly how I learned about that. Someone used it in a conversation, I had no idea what they were talking about, so I looked it up."I predict, Sir, that you will die either by hanging or of some vile disease."
"That all depends, sir, upon whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
--Disraeli to Gladstone
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Comment# 2, new and imroved.
" I understand you feeling kinda groovy, but let go of your own damn self."
:grin: :grin:
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OK- but its dificult especially when privately you talk dirty to me and I'm a man. :grin: :grin: :grin:
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well if you're that hungry first you've got to get a clean halucengenic and just trip your brains out on some trax that are cool with some headphones first. I recommend fobidden vynil. And get away from people that aren't tripping with you. You'll figure out the rest the next day. Just make sure the Feds give you clean stuff. I recommend 1 pin-drop of LSD. If you're that hungry go ahead.........I dare you to increase our IQ.
He that lives upon hope will die fasting
--Benjamin Franklin 1758
Oh yeh but I'll never revealwhen I fast and you wouldn't know it if I were. But greg take vitamin C and check out this cool DVD called "Rainbow Bridge". You'll finf it in the Jimi Henfrix rack at circuit city. Also just remember you really are hungry.Ah Hell I finished a 14 week course in 23 dayz on just plain cheap acid my secion leader gave me at radioman school 3.8 grade average.
_________________
"Mine Eyes have seen the Glory of The Coming Of The Lord"
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Er...no thanks.
Just cut a branch off the ole mustard tree.
That'll do it for me.
:grin: :grin:
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Hey Greg,
The biting remark was not meant for you but for Ginger. Not meant to be a big deal or a personal attack. To answer your question yes I do remember Big Frank and also read the post when he committed suicide or accidental overdose. I did feel bad for him wished he was still around I do not subscribe to the opinion that drug addicts or users get what they deserve.
Just wanted to say a couple of things about this as I can remember Frank blamed his problems because of the time he was at the Seed but I often wonder if the cure was worst than the disease(especially in the case of people that went through the program as minors).
I can only speak for myself when I think about my current dysfunctions with my life and there origins. I went into the Seed because I had some issues and needed to get control of my life What I heard there seamed to me logical and simple and if I applied some of these things perhaps I could control my life. Not everything changed I still had certain problems I needed to deal with and I could not blame the Seed for these things, for one placing blame on the Seed would only be side stepping the issue and not do anything to resolve my problem. So the question I ask is was Frank a victim of the Seed or just overwhelmed by his own problems and just using the Seed as a scapegoat? I would not even try to answer the question out of respect for Big Frank.
I can not see my experience in the Seed as a young teenager because I was not, I was older and weathered when I went to the Seed and because of this I will not allow myself to discredit your perception of the Seed. We were at very different places in our lives when we experienced the Seed. Perhaps if I were younger when I experienced the Seed I would see things eye to eye with you. Also, take into account that in the 80?s the Seed program was much smaller and an older crowd prevailed. I will agree with you that the Seed was flawed I will not argue that point and to me this was obvious especially toward the end of my stay but this will not negate the credit I give to the Seed and for the tools the Seed taught to me in dealing with life. I was 22 when I walked into the Seed and in spite of it all I choose to stay. (I?ve been working on this post since this morning and new posts have gone up since than. Dam I wish I was a faster thinker).
The ideals of the Seed were sound, love those around you, and set an example for those around you. Don?t be the weak link, love people, and be honest with yourself and with others. Do things to make yourself feel proud of yourself this will develop good feelings about yourself, Stand up for your beliefs and I could go on and on. If you don?t believe that these are sound ideas just try applying these things I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
I remember listening to raps about how close we all were and the love that we share will carry on forever. I guess I could not see how small little attitudes and interivalries would eventually play out and destroy. What I could see and never sat right with me was the so called hero worship so many people professed to have for Art. Never felt it and it always scared the hell out of me. In my particular case Art was nothing but kind to me and often remember being at his house scared and paranoid of saying something wrong or doing the wrong thing and having the wrath of Staff fall upon me(never happened). His words were quoted as Holy Scripture and gratitude was always spoken and given to him.
Even after all of this and all these years I do not see him as an evil or cunning. I see Art through kinder eyes someone who tried to change things for the better and after many years of self reflection see him for a very strong influence in my life. Was the Seed flawed? Hell yea but so was I, and not in any way does this negate all the positive lessons the Seed taught me and to negate this would be deny who I am today.
Hey but that?s just what I think
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On 2005-08-10 14:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hey Greg,
The biting remark was not meant for you but for....
"
I knew that, but it was such a good opportunity to get in another tree/bush joke I just coudln't resist!
:grin:
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scientology, haris krisna, the moonies and many other mind cults have "solid ideals".
It is the methodology of imparting these ideals with that I take issue with, along with the bastardization of the meaning of the words (such as "honesty and awareness"). This is a common element of all cults.
Thanks for your post
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On 2005-08-10 14:55:00, GregFL wrote:
It is the methodology of imparting these ideals with that I take issue with.
No, no! It's "with which I take issue."
But yeah, couldn't have said it better otherwise. LOLThe Roman Catholic Church had a policy of burning all pre-Columbian information as pagan.
Wiki
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I just thought they made it up in that stupid Jodie Foster movie....
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Can?t make a comment on scientology, haris krisna, or the moonies never been a part of them don?t even know much about them. I can only comment about my experience at the Seed. The Seed never taught that some comet will fly by and we could hitch a ride to another world on it. I never once ever heard mention by anyone that Art was the incarnation of God on earth.
The Seed primary function or purpose was to get people straight by that I mean to stop using drugs or for that matter stop drinking. To lump the Seed into the same group as heavens gate or The Branch (Divedends?) seems to me a little harsh and we could argue this forever. To do this would be akin to taking a once of truth and turning it into 10 lbs of shit.
Are you saying that being honest, to work hard to love those around you are wrong?
All I?m trying to say is the ideas are and were sound (good and functional).Even if some of the teachers were flawed. I will not deny that the Seed did have some cultish elements hell that is why I left the Seed. Again I will only speak for myself, the lessons learned did me good and have served me right. I understand things better I'm better adjusted person and I can understand people.
I guess its in how I choose to look at my experience.
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No,you just heard that
the seedlings were the chosen people to change the world.
Seedlings had "special powers of awareness" that allowed them to know what others were thinking
Art Barker had a hyper sense of self awareness and an extra capacity to love.
without the group you would de dead insane or in jail.
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quote: Are you saying that being honest, to work hard to love those around you are wrong?
------------
no, Im saying that redefining those terms is wrong. Seedlings were rarely honest. For instance, you couldnot express any doubts about art barker, could you? Didn't you have them? What would have happened for instance if you stood up and said "letting Art win at softball is just a big bunch of bullshit designed to feed his ego?
Honest? Hardly.
Love is the most commonly jaked phrase by cults of all. Love means you are in good standing with the group and little more. The minute you don't comply with any cult, they banish you. Where was the love for John Underwood, for example, when after 6 years they banished him and never again spoke to him for a simple disagrement?
Love? What a silly notion.....
And I NEVER compared the Seed to Heavens gate or the branch dividians. I compared them to the Moonies, scientologist and Hari Krisnas. One of the main differences was those places are voluntary, and their coercise mind control techniques aren't nearly as brutal. Go ask any one of them about their "ideals"..you may be surprised.
then again...there is that kool aide thing in common....
:grin:
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No, you've swerving madly around the point. Nothing wrong with the stated ideals at all. It's the method that's messed up.
Do you understand why they'd do things like hang a toilet seat around someone's neck and then have the rest of group humiliate them? Never mind whether or not that sort of treatment is therapeutic or not. I think it's pretty clear to anyone that it's not. But it is effective and affective. Do you understand how it works?
Ok, how about monitoring people on the toilet? Why did they do that? How about dissallowing any contact with the outside world, including the parents who placed them there and who, presumably, were not olddruggiefriends? Why'd they do that? And why do they do exactly the same thing in all Synanon based programs, bar none?
Here's another example. Why place teenaged kids in positions of authority over new inductees? Didn't you ever feel you were in over your head when you were an oldcomer responsible for a newcomer? As an adult looking back on that, don't you think that's rather an odd policy? They don't trust you enough to have a bank account or even decide for yourself which job to take or when you need a treatment session. And yet, paradoxically, they trust you w/ the very life of another human being whom, according to Program dogma, is on the verge of suicide or insanity.
Do you understand the method of treatment that you received? Do you understand how it works? Why it works? And, more importantly, the side effects? I cannot believe in the immortality of the soul.... No, all this talk of an existence for us, as individuals, beyond the grave is wrong. It is born of our tenacity of life -- our desire to go on living -- our dread of coming to an end.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
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the moonies....
"The recruit is not left alone. As the neighbors of the Moonie encampment in Pope Valley have attested to, they walk in pairs. J. Isamu Yamamoto states in his book The Puppet Master, It becomes immediately apparent to you that you are not to be left alone and that all 'spiritual children' have someone of their opposite sex (seed-same sex) from the family assigned to them. If you should wander off by yourself(don't even try in the seed you will be tackled to the floor), someone will follow you and politely ask you to rejoin the group. You are even escorted to the rest room( and then ovserved and logged in the seed)." The book continues, "You also learn that there is a rigidly held schedule. There are specific times for eating, exercising, playing, singing, listening to lectures and discussing them. You are separated into small groups (boys rap, girls rap), led by a team leader who has to have perfect control, not approximate control. From the beginning, the leader directs his or her group like a kindergarten teacher, telling you when to do this or that."
If the leaders of the group should slacken in their enthusiasm or diligence, they are sternly reprimanded. The recruit is rarely permitted to engage in any casual conversation with anyone. They are only allowed to speak about spiritual(seedling) things within a structured framework. Creativity is frowned upon, conformity is stressed. "All day you are bombarded by ideas and concepts," states The Puppet Master. "There is little relaxation, and so your resistance is low. When you refrain from sharing or resist in any way, you are met with benevolent concern (come down sessions). Peer approval is an important technique which subtly tells you to conform. The family members aim directly at your most vulnerable points the need to belong, to feel useful and to feel love. Throughout the workshop you are flooded with affection, hugs, pats, hand-holding and smiles."
Recruits react to the regimental control by trying to please. "But, you quickly learn that the only way to please is to conform," The Puppet Master states. "You succumb many times to small acts of conformity without realizing it. You feel guilty when you hold back, and you are told that wanting to be alone is a symptom of fear and alienation." It is at this point that the recruit is asked to join the movement. The family member who has spent all the time with the specific recruit will beg and plead for the recruit to stay. "There will even be tears along with promises. They will continue to implore until you decide to join," The Puppet Master states.
After joining the Moonies, the recruit will be given about two weeks of adjustment....After the "losing period" the regimentation becomes even more rigid. The recruit is required to adhere to even more demanding workshop schedules. They sleep five or six hours a day. Their diet consists of starchy foods and low proteins.
Anything here ring any bells?
what about their ideals?
Here are a few...
Seek to become that master of love. Program your life like that, and you will never be a loser.
Open up the baggage of your mind and look what you find there.
We need to change our concepts. Our attitude is an environment that must be prepared in order to receive spiritual help.
The main differences between the moonies and the seed circa 1973 are as thus...
the moonies were voluntary (yet coercise) while the seed was not.
the techniques are much harsher and severe in the seed
the moonies had a religious element.
the average age of the moonie was 6 or so years higher.
This is for anyone struggling with the concerpt that you were in a cult.
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Oh, one other detail while I'm getting old hostility off my chest. Can anyone explain why my brothers were not allowed to talk to me when they went in? I was 6 at the time. I swear, I'd never done drugs w/ them or even talked about it. How come I couldn't have at least a phone call w/ either one of them? How could I possibly have been dangerous to their "sobriety"?
There's a reason. I understand it pretty well. Do you?God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh.
--Voltaire (1694-1778)
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Anybody?
Another example of the method. How come it had to be a secret where newcomers were living? Why couldn't my mom just walk up to any of my brother or sister's foster parents and ask if they were sleeping ok, if that rash had gone away, etc.? Do any of you Seed supporters understand why it was so vitally important to keep the newcomer completely isolated from everyone and everything they ever knew, up to and including clergy?If God has spoken, why is the world not convinced?
--Percy Bysshe Shelley, English poet
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Antigen, I swear you have issues. You sound like that 6yr old still. I think thats the problem. You never did get it. Didn't you ever get along with your brothers once they went home?????
There's shit missing from your story. All I hear( and I mean this ) is a pissed off kid that wants her family. Damn my family was totally fu--ed up but somehow we managed to pull it together. It sounds to me like your family was messed up long before the seed. (I'm sure you'll fight me on this one.) My father never stepped foot in the Seed. My parents were together. My dad was a drunk for years. My mother was in and out of nut houses when I was young. Believe it or not we all turned out fine. My dad did eventually go to AA, was sober for 25 yrs before he died. My sister went through the Seed ( was involved for about a year totally) never stepped foot in the doors again. She has a glass of wine ocassionally. I don't , but her life works for her. My mom ended up off all medications and is actually happy today. Sure one of my brothers is a Baptist Minister (talk about extremes) We were raised catholic. But we all get along ...because we want to. We work at it ...
I'm sorry that you and Greg had it fucked up with your family situations. Maybe the Seed was part to blame( OH Oh I said it) but you can fix it I did....and not with the help of JESUS CHRIST or any novenas, or the seed for that matter. just because I wanted to make it work. Sure I'm divorced and that didn't work-but hell my life's not over yet.
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Thanks for the free (and unsolicited) psych dx.
Now, back to the point, do you understand the reasons why newcomers were not permitted any contact whatsoever w/ anyone they had ever known, including family, clergy, their own pediatrician, etc.?
Do you know the answer or don't you?The present system is among the most impractical imaginable, if the facilitation of learning is your aim.
--Neil Postman and Charles Weingartner
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Yes I do,!!!!!!!!!!!
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Care to explain?
May your days be joyously challenging and your words artfully true.
--Ginger Warbis
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Maybe later!
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Why do you think?
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Anon Wrote:
Antigen, I swear you have issues. You sound like that 6yr old still. I think thats the problem. You never did get it. Didn't you ever get along with your brothers once they went home?????
Anon, do you get that the brothers who left were gone for good - that persons who came back were not the same as the ones who left? Don't you get that for all intents and purposes, the six year old's family essentially DIED WITH EVERY SEED ADMISSION?
Jesus christ in a bucket, cut this woman some slack. If it weren't for the likes of her and Greg, you and I would be paying big bucks to psychiatrists and mental health counselors to find any outlet for our hostilities. I have them hostilites, too.
When a person looses something so near and dear as her family, not to death but to some fucked program, hell yeah, I think that person is entitled to ask the difficult questions and demand the diffuclt answers.
What skin is it off your nose anyway, unless you are one of the persons directly responsible for dismantling that family. Good intentions of the programmers cannot excuse the end results, no matter how much you try to blame the victim here.
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I've heard her and her brother go back and forth on here. In fact I know her brother. We have also emailed back and forth in the past. (me & the brother) He seems fine to me. He seems alot like he did 20 - 25 yrs ago. He was always a nice guy.
This woman needs to cut herself and her brother some slack.
But thanks for all your help. :grin:
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Oh ya stripe thanks for including all the unnecessary added drama.
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Why not greg? The synanon thing was also about the trip. I suppose you don't even know some group members came to group on LSD and were oldcomers and old-Timers. You're not synanon,your freemasonary which is a very dangerous cult to be in. I got Fagers Portfolio. Also, I've chatted to Antigen. She didn't lie about you. But, anyway I was tripping years before I met you and I passed my acid test at 12 years old. Just stupid kid stuff you know. I don't need it anymore.My IQ has already expanded past yours.
If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace.
--Thomas Paine
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Sounds like ...way past. :grin:
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First, I have (had) three brothers. And you're right about Thom. He hasn't changed in 25 or 30 years. That's the point. He got sucked into the Program at age 14 and really never moved beyond that. Always was a nice guy w/ a sort of hostile edge. At one point, a sponsor told him that his sense of humor was a part of his alcoholism. So he went around trying to not be funny for a time, which, of course, was hysterical. :roll:
As for what I think about the total isolation, well I think they did that at The Seed for the very same reasons they do it in every other program in the troubled parent industry. Also, same reason why the clams have their recent inductees write a letter home saying they no longer wish contact with their families. Same reason why the Moonies keep their new recruits isolated. Basically, severing social supports and familiar comforts is part of the base method.
That's what we were talking about, remember? The method that The Seed and Straight used on us.
Maybe if we can take one baby step along in this conversation we can get around to talking about what they did during the period of isolation and why they did it.
He who will not reason is a bigot; he who cannot is a fool; and he who dares not is a slave.
--Author: Sir William Drummond
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
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Antigen said:
That's what we were talking about, remember? The method that The Seed and Straight used on us.
Maybe if we can take one baby step along in this conversation we can get around to talking about what they did during the period of isolation and why they did it.
Sorry, I was so severly brainwashed, that I can't remember much. Where am I ????
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Don't ya' get it, anon? We're not in group anymore. You can't shut down dissent w/ lame ridicule. I can just talk to someone else or drop it if you don't wish to discuss this topic. If we were in group, I'd be dependent on you (the pro faction) for basic care and comfort as well as all social contact. But we're not. I'm in my home w/ my family. Tough I'd like to know your thoughts on the narrow question of isolation and the broader question of the whole method, I don't need your approval or affection. I'm fine w/o it.
RAMPANT talking out in group, bruthuhs and sistahs! That's the cure, I'm convinced of it!
The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by an endless series of hobgoblins; all of them imaginary.
H.L. Mencken, 1923
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Hello everyone. It has been sometime since I posted. But, with all the activity relating to JU posting I just felt like I was inclined to say something. I came into the Seed in 1978. JU was long gone by then. I was apart of the Seed until 1985. So I had 7 yrs. I only heard JU's name mentioned a few times during my time there. As with any person who left without Art's blessing? Did he or not?They were seldom if ever talked about.
So my point? Let him have his opinion. He wasn't there for the "real" Seed. I don't believe he knows the "real" Seed. The one he knew was a large organization with many staff members and a little bit of freedom in terms of having relationships with family, friends outside the Seed, etc. His Seed seemed like it was about putting butts in the seats and changing the world as they knew it. The Seed I left was a closed little world. There was no personal freedom. It seemed to me looking back at it that the changing the world mentality had been replaced by a shut the world out idea. A they are a__holes, we're the chosen ones mentality. I left before it was about making money. My Seed said money had no "real value. So most of us worked dead end jobs if any job at all.
I wish I had seen people being helped. All I really saw was people substituting one set of crutches for another.
So, when I read his postings, It's simply not the Seed I knew. When I read the postings of Cleveland and 80's Guy, and others, that's the Seed I knew.
For what it's worth.
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Wtaylor, it is always good to hear from you. By the way, my brother E. says hello. I knew you guys were friends. We've been talking about this site for a while. I don't think he reads here too often these days, but I fill him in from time to time.
I think by the time we left it, the 'little flaws' in the program had become big ones. I totally agree. You cannont create a society based on partial access to truth or power, and have it survive.
I think it's interesting, since someone posted elsewhere that Art hated the republicans and voted for democrats. When I could vote in 1980 and was a loyal seedling, I voted for Reagan and I know a lot of others did too. He was a lot like Art - charisma, showbiz, full of lots of talk about America and patriotism. So much greater than that little guy Carter, carping on about energy conservation and admitting that he had 'lust in his heart.' We hated him. Boy were we wrong. And now look at the current administration, waving the flag and stomping out the loyal opposition. You know, George Bush hates dissent too, Robin. It used to work for him too. He is surrounded by yes men and women. How about Ann Coulter? Want to debate her? (Sorry my politics are showing). Anyway. I think closed societies on the right or the left, that don't tolerate debate and dissent, are both the same. No difference. Same flaws, different flags. So if the Seed voted democrat and Straight voted republican, their politics had the same flavor.
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On 2005-08-12 09:15:00, cleveland wrote:
Same flaws, different flags. So if the Seed voted democrat and Straight voted republican, their politics had the same flavor.
Exactly!It may be that our role on this planet is not to worship God, but to create him.
--Arthur C. Clarke, author
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On 2005-08-11 13:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Oh ya stripe thanks for including all the unnecessary added drama. "
You are welcome.
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Hey WTAYLOR,
"Welcome back your dreams were your ticket out". John Sebastain :grin:
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:wave: :wave: :wave:
Have a good weekend y'allFor something that has spread with all the forethought of kudzu, the Internet isn't half bad."
-- Newsweek, 2/27/95
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I love this site, because I've been able to reconnect with some old friends and make some new ones. (and maybe a new enemy or two??) :grin: I was glad to see JU post. I havn't seen him in probably some 25 years. Alot of good memories came to mind. I remember for, I think my 20th birthday JU gave me a watch for my birthday which I still have (It may not still work, but I still have it.) It was a very nice watch. He used to call me Terrence Clarence which I both liked and hated for apparent reasons.
He also told me that I would probably end up as a shoe salesman at KMart. Which I guess I did wind up being a salesman of some sort. I remember driving around with him in his Maroon Grand Prix and if we were on the highway and couldn't pass someone he would call it "The ole box play" which I think of and still say to myself today. I also remember rushing to see "The Sting" with a bunch of us when the group no longer went from 10 to 10, back when you could still smoke at the movies. John was a good example to me as a teenager and into my twenties. He made a difference in my life. I felt he cared about me and looked after me. John I guess I'm saying thanks for caring about me and taking the time to make a difference in my life.
I was able to reconnect with Wally Gater, who I think the world of. I've also chatted with Thom, MG and Wtaylorg and Robin Martin, who I have had some great conversations with. CG who I think is a great guy and good friend. 80's guy or is it 90's guy has been a close friend through it all for alot of years and I resprct him immensely.
I just wanted to say something nice about some people too. I'm glad that CG and Wally started it off.
Antigen & Greg, thanks for this site. I don't hardly agree with much you say but thanks for the site. I do think its a healthy thing for everyone.
signed,
Terrence Clarence
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I also left one person that I reconnected with I couldn't remember their posting name. RJFRO22, god it took me forever to find your posting name
but your the best- thanks. Oh yeah - also RB.
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Hey, thank you too. I really enjoy all of you, especially when we are all getting along.
I think you agree with some of what I say..certainly you must! :grin: :grin: :grin:
In all seriousness, that is not all that important to me. I know you and I had vastly different experiences. I understand now that I was probably in at the worst time, in the worst location (according to my conversatin with JU, he thought Cleveland and St Pete were out of control).
I strongly disagree with the methods used at the seed, but that is meangingless in the context of the people here.
Robin, I know you are reading and I haven't said this, but I would respectfully like you to reconsider participating. No one is asking you to agree, and I think you went south on the whole "peer pressure being applied" speech. Disagreeing is what we do best! :grin:
Come back and participate if you feel like it, you will be welcomed back with open arms. If not, take care and call me or email me sometime!
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See and you guys thought Greg, couldn't be a nice guy.
::bigsmilebounce:: [ This Message was edited by: Ft. Lauderdale on 2005-08-16 09:41 ]
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Don't let his secret out...He is
a very good guy!
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First off Hi Cleveland, and say hi to E for me.
I remember first running into you up in Clev. after we both left '86? and you asked me to your apt. in Little Italy. You were painting some fish and we talked about the Seed a little and I said I believed I had left on good terms.
I know you woke me up by telling me how "they" staff had really viewed me. Among other things, I learned, I wasn't allowed to be around Julio, and other newbys alone. That always at the beach there would be you or JA or someone else with us. And when someone asked about my leaving- Bob W, referred to me as a mixed up guy who didn't know what he had.
At the time that truth hurt my feelings, because somewhere apart of me wanted to believe that the Seed really liked me?
So, like you I was out in the world rudderless and a newby, but after yrs of thinking so little of myself while at the Seed, I began aslow learning who I was. I studied ART and found I was good in design and I went to CA and studied Ilustration and Computer Animation and learned I could learn after all. I became a liberal and then a conservative and now liberal again.
All the things we missed out by being at the Seed I have done. I choose to be drug-free, but many of my best friends either drink or smoke pot sometimes.
I have seen the stars from the Joshua Tree and felt closer to God then at anytime at the Seed
So yeah, we learn and experience and now we don't have to watch others live the good life.
Take Care
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wtaylor, you always were a good guy and i am glad that you have discovered art. there is nothing like creativity and one of the saddest things for me about the seed was that for most of us, creativity was inhibited. when i told staff that i wanted to go to art school i was told, 'art is for girls.' can you believe it? i was straight for 6 years or so, and i was made to feel less manly because i wanted to express myself. and staff members, who i was not to question, told me this!
anyway. i am kind of sad that i was the one to disillusion you, because i wanted to believe in this too. i had forgotten about telling you those things. i do recall you were just matter of fact about it, i didn't know i was playing the role.
E says hello. did you know he's kind of famous now? went to iraq with the first recon unit and wrote, 'generation kill.' has won all sorts of awards for it too. doing well.
you know, we all wanted to believe so badly in something. esprit de corps. i am so glad to have the opportunity to develop some objective thoughts about those years.
w
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Course you know the only cure for that there acid trips was the true brain salad surgery.....................which is PSYPATROPICS!!!!!!! Go see your mental ward today and go on the dole. Don't worry Isreal is fitting the bill as usual. Then maybe you can get some relief from your probs. I take 'em everyday. Just love it. I call mine vitamin T which stands for thorozine. Gee I hope none of you are on meth..........you'll choke on phenothiazines. oh well BE Blessed y'all it's another human rights reform anyway.
"Mine Eyes have seen the Glory of The Coming Of The Lord" and man was that a terrible day that day, oh well swing low sweet chariot.[ This Message was edited by: The Root Of Jesse on 2005-08-23 08:32 ]
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::bigmouth:: ::dove:: ::dove:: ::dove:: ::dove::
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Hey Wtaylor,
I hadn't seen Julio in about 15 or 20 years. He asked me to his Fire Academy Graduation. (He remembered my dad was a firefighter.) He'd been to college years before, divorced with 3 kids. He became a firefighter/paramedic. He loves it.
They put on this big type of rescue, climb a building graduation show with alot of other physical activities.
There he was 37yrs old doing all this with 20 yr olds. You'd never recognize him, he's like joe bodybuilder. Hes no skinny kid anymore.
Just thought you might want to know that.
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Hi TK, Cleveland
I'm really glad to hear about Julio. I was always close to him and I'm very happy for his success.
Can you fill me in on Joe M? If you can? A very nice guy who I saw being taken advantage of down there
Clev: I don't want you to fill bad about telling me the truth back then. I was glad you cared enough about me to give me your perspective. In fact I left your apartment that night knowing I had to close that chapter. It appears that those of us who were on the outside looking in really didn't have any "real" idea how we were viewed by the "chosen" ones. I just am so lucky that I made it out of there when I did and that I choose to stay away.
Not as if they would have wanted me back.
I remember receiving aletter sent to my parents from the Seed around '87? And in it Shelly explained that the Seed was changing from an adolescent to an adult only program.
They also implied because the Seed had done so much for me that I should reciprocate with a monetary gift.
At that time, That made me smile because the Seed was the last place I would ever send money too. I had already started to work in my field as an intern so I guess I could have sent something, but it felt better to throw the letter away.
I know many here debate the pros and cons o fthe Seed expereince. A lot of great stuff is written. All I can really do is share My experiences and recollections. That's all I have.
While I was finishing high school in Clev. I remember watching so many of the Clev. kids move down there and then have their problems with fitting in (Rob M) and making it at the Seed. I used to think Why? At that time I was getting good enough grades in HS to apply for several good schools. But, I was lead to believe a life at the Seed in FL was the best use of my ability.
How wrong was that? My abilties were never in the area of "rapping" or being and egoist.
So I sold my myself short.
I remember sitting in group and thinking if I left could I make enough money to have an apartment and a TV. I didn't have big dreams for myself.
For every staff member and "insider" there were a dozen of us just trying to understand what was happening each day.
W
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WTaylor,
Check the private messages & I'll fill you in on Joe M.
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TK: check your private messages.
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fuelaw in what publication and by what reporter can we read about your beatings?
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I was interviewed by a freelance writer who sold the article to the Rolling Stone. I do not think the article was ever published.
ps. I wasn't the only one who got their ass kicked in the place.
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fuelaw, when did the article take place? Time frame?
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who else got their ass kicked? how do you know the article was sold to RS? why wasn't it published?
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Maybe I can help clear it up for Fuelaw. The article never ran. He thought it did. Several years ago a former seedling who is a correspondence editor for Rolling Stone came to Florida and interviewed many people, including Fuelaw, Art barker, me and others for an article. The article was indeed sold to Rolling Stone but Rolling Stone didn't run it.
I know this much for a fact. He just was mistaken in the fact that the article never made it to press. Once an article is sold to a magazine, it becomes an editorial decision whether to run it or not.
To see documentation of kids being beat at the seed at the direction of their parents, go to your local library and look up "Art Barker" "the Seed" and cross reference a 1973 article in a publication called "these are new time". At least one parent was interviewed and tells how devestated and manipulated he felt after doing this at the direction of the St Pete Seed staff.
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Could it be that unsubstantiated, probable prevarication, was deemed not publishable?
I do not believe in the divinity of Christ, and there are many other of the postulates of the orthodox creed to which I cannot subscribe.
--William Howard Taft, U.S. President
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I suppose you could jump to that conclusion if it makes you feel better.
If All it takes is an infinite number of monkeys with type writers, then how come there's no Shakespeare coming out of AOL?
-- Anonymous
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welcome to the forum Realdialoger!
As to your comment, could be..but the magazine asked him to do the story, read it and paid him. Whatever reason they didn't run it is purely speculation.
Were you in the seed? Where? For how long?
welcome once again!
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Antigen, that was a question, not a conclusion, but if it makes you feel better, go ahead and jump.
Life may have no meaning. Or even worse, it may have a meaning of which I disapprove.
Ashleigh Brilliant
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Ok, are you still beating your spouse? Hey, don't get upset! It's just a question! :rofl:
Seriously, who is this? Is this Libby? Shelly? Perloff? I'm curious. Who would be so persistently interested in identifying the publisher of such incidents? Oh, and in case you were there and would know the answer, how did that guy from Boston's leg get broken?As men's prayers are a disease of the will, so are their creeds a disease of the intellect.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson, American essayist, poet, philosopher
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antigen - only when my dog is too quick for me.
In God's wildness lies the hope of the world x the great fresh unblighted, unredeemed wilderness. The galling harness of civilization drops off, and wounds heal ere we are aware.
-- John Muir
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ginger, am i missing something? he only looks like he posted 3 times, all of which on this thread, only one of which has a question as to if the reports are unsubstantiated or not. where does the comment about him being so persistent in identifying these reports come from? posting in other forums?
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Yeah, you're missing quite a few identical requests, I think. But you probably know something I don't, too. What makes you think it's a he? Is it Perloff? No Robert, maybe ?
For the most part we inherit our opinions. We are the heirs of habits and mental customs. Our beliefs, like the fashion of our garments, depend on where we were born. We are molded and fashioned by our surroundings.
--Environment is a sculptor -- a painter.
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Maybe a McNulty?
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ginger, i dont know anything you dont. not sure why you would assume i do. i was just reading thru some of the posts and saw this and decided to inquire. thats' the extent of my knowledge or perhaps the lack of it.
i doubt "perloff" will ever post here. i doubt most of the names that are brought up will, but thats just opionion.
i said he, partially because i usually use that when the gender is unknown, but also because based on tone of the comments i think its a guy. not a very accurate method for determining this of course, but simply my "guess"
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On 2005-09-10 12:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Maybe a McNulty?"
Possible, but I doubt it.We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.
-- Ben Franklin At the signing of the Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1776.
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On 2005-09-10 13:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"ginger, i dont know anything you dont. not sure why you would assume i do. i was just reading thru some of the posts and saw this and decided to inquire. thats' the extent of my knowledge or perhaps the lack of it.
i doubt "perloff" will ever post here. i doubt most of the names that are brought up will, but thats just opionion.
i said he, partially because i usually use that when the gender is unknown, but also because based on tone of the comments i think its a guy. not a very accurate method for determining this of course, but simply my "guess""
Who would have thought John Underwood and other former staff would post here either? Seems at least likely these others could post too.