Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on July 27, 2005, 12:30:00 PM
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http://www.theoaklandpress.com/stories/ ... 6006.shtml (http://www.theoaklandpress.com/stories/072605/loc_20050726006.shtml)
'Brat Camp' not an easy decision
Web-posted Jul 26, 2005
By DAVE GROVES
Of The Oakland Press
Some Oakland County residents familiar with troubled teens say fans of ABC's new reality television show "Brat Camp" may not get a full appreciation of how difficult intervention decisions can be.
The show follows a number of teens enrolled in a highly structured, emotionally supportive wilderness camp that offers individual and group therapy.
Elizabeth Gordon, a Bloomfield Hills-based psychologist and educational consultant who has researched hundreds of similar camps and schools across the country, said parents who seek these interventions often endure tremendous stress and frustration first.
"I'm usually not their first stop," she said. "I'm usually the last stop - the one parents make when they're at their wits' end."
Many families employ counselors, church interventions and social service programs only to see their troubled teens continue to act out at home, get in trouble at school and sometimes even encounter legal problems.
At the same time, limited awareness of intervention programs, strained financial resources and difficult emotional issues stand in the way of parents finding help for their children.
"Most feel like failures," said Diane Kimber, president of the Bloomfield Hills-based Spirit Foundation, which assists parents seeking help.
"People don't like to tell those awful secrets for fear people will think less of them. What they don't know is that this is far more common than they imagine."
Commerce Township resident Nancy Stachecki decided to send her son, Robert, to a therapeutic intervention program three years ago after he became belligerent, disrespectful and confrontational. His attention deficit and hyperactivity disorder contributed to behavior issues that resulted in disciplinary action at school.
"You need to realize that you have not failed as a parent, because you cannot change anybody else," Stachecki said. "They've got to want to change themselves."
She and other parents have realized that they can support their children by placing them in programs designed to foster a desire to change. Discovering where to send a child, however, is a complicated decision.
Stachecki said she sent her son to schools in South Carolina and Utah before learning that she was misled about a lack of qualified therapists and a non-supportive environment that also neglected Robert's educational needs.
"It was, basically, like a prison," she said of one school.
Gordon said that while there is a gamut of quality programs designed to meet the needs and interests of all kinds of students, there are also options that can actually be detrimental to children.
"Don't just surf the Web to find something, because there are programs out there that are not good programs, but have a lot of marketing dollars," she said.
With Gordon's help, Stachecki said she found a highly supportive, effective program that is helping her son flourish. With hopes of eventually becoming a sports journalist or a lawyer, Robert plans to attend a college preparatory boarding school in the fall.
Intervention programs such as the one Stachecki employed can cost thousands of dollars per month, though she said she has obtained financial aid and education loans to help offset tuition.
Kimber, who also put a child through a costly intervention program, said, "I looked at it like, 'If this was cancer, I would spend my last nickel to save my child's life.' Really, this is no different."
Both Gordon and Kimber said any parent growing frustrated with an inability to address prolonged emotional or behavioral problems can benefit from exploring intervention programs. The longer parents wait, in fact, the less hope they may have to help children approaching the independence legal adulthood brings.
"They really need to make a decision pretty quickly as to what the extent of the intervention is going to be, because it is going to end when the child turns 18," Kimber said.
"Stachecki said she sent her son to schools in South Carolina and Utah before learning that she was misled about a lack of qualified therapists and a non-supportive environment that also neglected Robert's educational needs."
I think we can guess which "schools" those were.
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whats your point? Anyone can post anothers work, now tell us what you think about it.
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On 2005-07-27 12:05:00, OverLordd wrote:
---snip---
now tell us what you think about it.
You mean like you just did ? :wstupid:
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I did not post it up, so I dont have to analyize it. Poster analyzes it and We discuss their analyization.
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"analyization" = analysis.
But... sure, you can guess. But you may well be wrong. How emotionally supportive is it to show these kids w/ title grphics like "pathological liar" or "intolerable brat"? How emotionally supportive is it to work these kids on a starvation diet and limited sleep and then pressure them to discuss sensitive, personal issues like rape in front of all those strangers?
It's hard to imagine these people are even watching the same show I was. And I'd be very interested to hear from some of the kids who have received "help" on Elizabeth Gordon's recomendation.
It's obnoxious to ask law enforcement to follow the law. That's insulting to every cop.
--John Lovell, lobbyist for the California police chief's association
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No my dear, they do not have to do that.
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nevermind, i'm smokin weed and i'm on the wrong thread.
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So far I haven't watched this program - it shouldn't be on the air. It is disgusting that the networks are now exploiting children with emotional, home and behavior problems. The parents who allow this exploitation are worse than the networks. How can they expose their children's lives to the whole country. This is so outrageous.
Give me the youth, and Germany will rule the world.
--Hitler
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I don't understand why ANYONE goes on "reality tv".
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usually, exhibitionism. Old Andy said everyone would have their fifteen minutes of fame. With the growing population, I guess reality TV just came as a necessity in order to account for all those people who couldn't get recognition for any sort of accomplishment other than the ability to overcome camera-shyness. The whole reality-TV industry seems to be based on exhibitionism/voyeurism. It's a meat market really. Producers love it because it saves them loads of money not having to hire writers, actors, or set designers. All they need is a group of talentless bodies and any sort of situation that presses people for a reaction. It's sad because in the case of these kids, they don't have a choice. They are being exploited.
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By the way, can I just point out that Jada is NOT a pathological liar, please? Lying so that you do not get in trouble is regular lying. Lying for no reason at all is pathological lying. That irritates the crap out of me.
On 2005-07-27 13:25:00, Antigen wrote:
""analyization" = analysis.
But... sure, you can guess. But you may well be wrong. How emotionally supportive is it to show these kids w/ title grphics like "pathological liar" or "intolerable brat"? How emotionally supportive is it to work these kids on a starvation diet and limited sleep and then pressure them to discuss sensitive, personal issues like rape in front of all those strangers?
It's hard to imagine these people are even watching the same show I was. And I'd be very interested to hear from some of the kids who have received "help" on Elizabeth Gordon's recomendation.
It's obnoxious to ask law enforcement to follow the law. That's insulting to every cop.
--John Lovell, lobbyist for the California police chief's association
"
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On 2005-07-27 14:52:00, cherish wisdom wrote:
"So far I haven't watched this program - it shouldn't be on the air. It is disgusting that the networks are now exploiting children with emotional, home and behavior problems. The parents who allow this exploitation are worse than the networks. How can they expose their children's lives to the whole country. This is so outrageous.
Give me the youth, and Germany will rule the world.
--Hitler
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The parents probably got to send their kid for free...?
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I think some of those parents were desperate. If you don't have a minimum of $30,000 to spend on such a thing, I have to assume, that they would rather have their child on television for all to see, as opposed to losing their child forever.
I sent my child to one of these programs. We were all very happy with our decision. Our school system paid for half, and I am fortunate enough to have wealthy parents who loaned me the rest,(which I just PAID OFF TODAY!)Wu Hu!!!!
On the flip side, some of those parents are clueless! One family said, "We give our daughter money and she always buys drugs." Duuuh! STOP giving the girl money!
My point, some people truly do not have the funds and did what they felt they had to. Others are just stupid and would rather have a bank account and show of their kid.
Mabe they feel that if everyone knows what is going on, the kids will have more support when they return home. Who knows, just a thought.
If I had no way to pay for such a program, I too may have taken the bait. I'm greatful I was never in that position.
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These don't look like impoverished parents to me.
To say the drug war is a failure is like saying the Hindenburg was short a few fire extinguishers.
Carl Hiassen
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I might be wrong - but *if* I recall correctly - the parents didn't have to pay for the Brat Camp experaince. ABC paid for these kids.
I'll ask my friend who talked to the producer and see if she recalls for sure - but I do think that was the "bait" to take part in the TV version.
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The producer paid full tuition for the 'contestants'
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... &forum=9&1 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6796&forum=9&1)
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On 2005-07-28 18:51:00, Antigen wrote:
"These don't look like impoverished parents to me.To say the drug war is a failure is like saying the Hindenburg was short a few fire extinguishers.
Carl Hiassen
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You don't need to be "poor" to be unable to afford such a thing. I am by no means poor, but without the school system and my father's help, we could never have paid that bill.
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The school district paid for a wilderness experience? Or was it a 'therapeutic' warehouse? Either case, tax payer money which is supposed to go to 'education' is paid for 'therapy', and little to no education.
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On 2005-07-28 20:41:00, Deborah wrote:
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The producer paid full tuition for the 'contestants'
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... &forum=9&1 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6796&forum=9&1)"
I don't know about the small print for the SageWalk Brat Camp but in the original show at RedCliff Ascent the TV company payed the fees but if the parent pulled the kid for any reason prior to 'graduation' they had to pay it ALL back. Most of the parents couldn't afford that kind of money which is why they put their kids on TV in the first place. One of the parents was on the point of pulling her child (who was on suicide watch) but decided against it. I wonder how much the money played a part in that decision.
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Here's another way to pay those expensive fees. Write a book about it and publicize it on the back of Brat Camp:
?Brat Camp,? ABC?s Hottest TV Show Mirrors Author?s Experience With Her Own OUT OF CONTROL TEEN
http://www.expertclick.com/NewsReleaseW ... il&ID=9685 (http://www.expertclick.com/NewsReleaseWire/default.cfm?Action=ReleaseDetail&ID=9685)
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"Mabe they feel that if everyone knows what is going on, the kids will have more support when they return home. Who knows, just a thought."
Sorry, that sounds like a load of crap to me. The kids will just be added to the ranks of pseudo-celebrities, recognized for a short time, and then left to rebuild their lives off-camera, coming to terms with what happened to tham and that they were involved in a really sick experiment for ratings, profit, and publicity. I hope they sue.
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On 2005-07-29 16:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
You don't need to be "poor" to be unable to afford such a thing. I am by no means poor, but without the school system and my father's help, we could never have paid that bill. "
Well, the way I look at it, if you're living in a $200k+ house and think you have to beg or borrow money from your family and from me (the tax payor) for something you believe your kid needs, you have absolutely no business telling your kid or anyone else about priorities and responsibility.
Live within your means. Set an example. You might be surprised how much easier it is to earn respect than to beat it out of the kid.
[Religion is] the daughter of hope and fear, explaining to ignorance the nature of the unknowable.
--Ambrose Bierce
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On 2005-07-29 16:30:00, Deborah wrote:
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The school district paid for a wilderness experience? Or was it a 'therapeutic' warehouse? Either case, tax payer money which is supposed to go to 'education' is paid for 'therapy', and little to no education.
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The school system paid for one half of the program because the realized they had failed to educate my child. I would attend PPT's, year after year, and BEG for extra help IN school.
Sitting in the front row isn't the answer for a learning disablity.
Getting pushed through the cracks for five years, crushed any self esteem the poor kid had remaining.
If the school had helped us when I asked the first time, It would have cost very little.
I got desparate and hired a special ed attorney.
How long do we allow administrator's to deny our childern an approprate education? I pay taxes TOO and got sick of their denial.
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Well, sitting in the front might help some, but I get your point.
Depending on the school district or a program is not the solution to learning disabilities either.
If the district isn't meeting a child's educational needs, then it's seems to me that it is incumbant on the caring parent to see that they're met.
Brat Camp participant Nick was sent because he'd been teased about his Dyslexia until he was exhibiting frustration and anger. Who's going to see to it that he gets the help he should have gotten a long time ago? Behavior Modification is also not the solution to learning disabilities.
Public school 'works' for about 25% of kids. Why do people keep trying to 'force' the other 75% to adjust? The entire system needs a total redesign of structure and philosophy, or to be shut down completely?
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Public school sucks! Even "smart" kids (w/ high IQ & who tests well) can easily fail. Private school is really the only way to go. I don't know about other cities, but here in Dc there are like 50 private schools. When I was about to be released from PCS, I was first told that I would go to private day school in the city, and that I could pick one myself. I was then told that I would have to go to boarding school, which was fine. Apparently, my parents had expected me to show some radical behaviour changes, and were beginning to see that this was not to be. I guess they wanted me to be lobotamized.
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P.S. Fuck you, Mom and Dad! You guys are idiots, I hate you.
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On 2005-07-31 20:19:00, Deborah wrote:
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Well, sitting in the front might help some, but I get your point.
Depending on the school district or a program is not the solution to learning disabilities either.
If the district isn't meeting a child's educational needs, then it's seems to me that it is incumbant on the caring parent to see that they're met.
Brat Camp participant Nick was sent because he'd been teased about his Dyslexia until he was exhibiting frustration and anger. Who's going to see to it that he gets the help he should have gotten a long time ago? Behavior Modification is also not the solution to learning disabilities.
Public school 'works' for about 25% of kids. Why do people keep trying to 'force' the other 75% to adjust? The entire system needs a total redesign of structure and philosophy, or to be shut down completely?
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Thanks for understanding.
Wilderness programs really don't academically educate kids.
What they do achieve (hopefully) is, reflection on their lives, their families, higher self worth and goal setting. All while being free from booze, drugs, music, fashion, TV, and negetive friends. With all that missing, with some luck, they will take with them a new additude and life expectations. From there, a school change is a wise choice.
Our family is much better off today then we would have been if we hadn't made this difficult choice.
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On 2005-08-02 09:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
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On 2005-07-31 20:19:00, Deborah wrote:
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Well, sitting in the front might help some, but I get your point.
Depending on the school district or a program is not the solution to learning disabilities either.
If the district isn't meeting a child's educational needs, then it's seems to me that it is incumbant on the caring parent to see that they're met.
Brat Camp participant Nick was sent because he'd been teased about his Dyslexia until he was exhibiting frustration and anger. Who's going to see to it that he gets the help he should have gotten a long time ago? Behavior Modification is also not the solution to learning disabilities.
Public school 'works' for about 25% of kids. Why do people keep trying to 'force' the other 75% to adjust? The entire system needs a total redesign of structure and philosophy, or to be shut down completely?
"
Thanks for understanding.
Wilderness programs really don't academically educate kids.
What they do achieve (hopefully) is, reflection on their lives, their families, higher self worth and goal setting. All while being free from booze, drugs, music, fashion, TV, and negetive friends. With all that missing, with some luck, they will take with them a new additude and life expectations. From there, a school change is a wise choice.
Our family is much better off today then we would have been if we hadn't made this difficult choice."
In other words, break their spirit then dump them in a therapeutic community until they are too old to be kept under lock and key by order of their own parents.
That's twisted!
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On 2005-07-31 23:42:00, bandit1978 wrote:
"Public school sucks! Even "smart" kids (w/ high IQ & who tests well) can easily fail. Private school is really the only way to go. I don't know about other cities, but here in Dc there are like 50 private schools. When I was about to be released from PCS, I was first told that I would go to private day school in the city, and that I could pick one myself. I was then told that I would have to go to boarding school, which was fine. Apparently, my parents had expected me to show some radical behaviour changes, and were beginning to see that this was not to be. I guess they wanted me to be lobotamized.
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My IQ tests for the A/G or G.T. programs (which is being stuck in the magnet program so I go to the shittiest school in the county w/ my other geeky peers in our own little enclave in the corner of the school to average out the shitty test scores :roll: ) would get me in MENSA. (I checked :roll:
So, I finally ditch the HS ratrace, drop out because I HAVE to drop out to get my GED (I wanted to do it while still enrolled and then just stop doing work until someone asked why, and shove it in their face :lol: but I was told I ahd to drop out to take the GED program) and enroll in the GED program the next day.
I am required to have 12 hours in it before I can take the test, so I spend them tutoring other people. I ace the test with 99th percentiles on everything except english, which I got a 86th on because I tend to suck at interpretation of literature. Oh, and I missed ONE question on history, but I probably just filled in the wrong damn bubble.
So, now Im in college, and what happens? I take the entry test, I get 99% on the english thing and am placed HIGH (wtf?) and Im behind on math because highschool math here was... well, shit! Thanks public school! The most important thing in the programming language is the name. A language will not succeed without a good name. I have recently invented a very good name and now I am looking for a suitable language.
-- D. E. Knuth, 1967
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Around here, the public schools are descent in the rich uperclass white areas. The public schools are a joke in the urban, minority schools however.
Whey do I get the feeling this is done on purpose?
I am a supporter of the voucher program, let all the kids parents decide where they go!
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Yeh, or don't go.
That story reminded me of my neice. Brilliant, never studied, Aced test, Straight A student.
She didn't graduate or get a diploma.
She refused to attend summer school because she had missed two, too many days of school. It was principle.
There's a real problem when rules are black and white and there's zero tolerance. And the system's agenda is to condition good workers, not educate. She had obviously mastered the material.
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Find out what she wants to do and see what kind of education at college is necessary to do it.
Im motivated but dunno what to go forward with. Hell, I have trouble right now picking what to do! My interests are pretty varied... high end theoretical physics (well, gonna have to take a TON of algebra... high end physics is basically all algebra, chew on that for a while) or engineering becuase I love modifying and racing cars... MORE MATH... or computer/network type jobs... more math! (Unless I end up being a driver, in which case I basically just gotta master drinking as much water as I weat out in a nomex suit while strapped into a GT car grinning ear to ear)
Ok, so.... I know I gotta take math. But I also need a specialaized degree to do whatever. Hell, as much as I know about math now I could do tech support, build computers, and physically set up networks. Also, the 'home visit' type of stuff I could do... I could do it YEARS ago. but I need some stupid 2 year degree that says "I CAN DO THIS :rofl:
The whole system is just a joke man. Stuff I know I can do I cant, and its so unclear about what direction to take into the future... and people wonder why kids dont think about their future a lot. They go "GET A DEGREE" and youre stuck wondering WHICH Degree. Plus I see people with college degrees living hand to mouth all the time. Its very discourgaging.
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
--Bruce Lee
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I don't think a college degree is a guarantee to success these days.
I have friends who graduated from a prestigious college, while I only have a few years at a community school. We pretty much all have comparable jobs. We all have decided we want to start a business anyways, who wants a job for their entire life?
Nobody asks for a degree when you start your business. Doh! lol What a waste of money!
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Magnet programs, that is, shuffling the kids around so theyre not in neighborhood schools and all mixed up to make each school racially and test-score equitable, are a joke. They enver addressed the actual problems, oh no, they just shuffled in some brainey kids (almost always white or asian... I wish I was stereotyping but in my case Im not) to a shitty inner city school.
The neighborhood kids there got NOTHING. Their parents rightfuly protested how we had all this nice shit and they had nothing. We had a new wing of the school, they had the decrepid old parts. WHAT a joke! Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
-- Emo Phillips
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"Brat Camp participant Nick was sent because he'd been teased about his Dyslexia until he was exhibiting frustration and anger. Who's going to see to it that he gets the help he should have gotten a long time ago? Behavior Modification is also not the solution to learning disabilities."
On the show, Nick confessed that his brother was one his primary teasers; that his brother calls him 'stupid.' Maybe they sent the wrong brother to camp?
Seriously, no one should be sent. It was just a thought.
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Great point. Although I agree, neither should be sent, the brother seems to be the one with the 'issues'. And why did the mother allow this?
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On 2005-08-02 19:55:00, Deborah wrote:
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Great point. Although I agree, neither should be sent, the brother seems to be the one with the 'issues'. And why did the mother allow this?"
Send her too.
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Even in "rich upperclass white areas", the public school education is a failure for many.
This is because the classrooms are too crowded, the teachers are overworked and underpaid, and probably understimulated (how much flexibility do the states give them in creating their lesson plans? I'm not really sure). The kids are herded around and treated like animals. Add on the schools' "zero tolerance" for...ANYTHING policy.
My best girlfriend was in GT/AP classes (at public school) and in 12th grade, she skipped a lot of school (to go to the beach, amusement parks, ect...). Due to poor attendence, her English teacher failed her, despite the fact that she had done all her assignments had like 90% grade in class. She couldn't graduate w/ her class, and her parents were so upset, they refused to pay for her college. She ended up moving out and living with her boyfriend, going to community college and having a baby a year or so later.
Around the same time, I was at a private boarding school, where the teachers were old hippies or european or whatever, and our grades were based on the work we turned in, not on our attendence. These teachers were rather progressive, and missing a few classes never tantamounted to much, unless you were skipping classes AND not handing in any work, in which case you might get one hour detention, to be served at your convenience, for one hour before the school day (pick a day, any day, get your breakfast bagel and coffee, go sign in at the library and spend an hour reading or talking or whatever) I know some girls who never went to phys. ed. class AT ALL during some semesters, but still passed with a B. (phys ed class could be horseback riding lessons, skiing, or weightlifting, the latter being the class said girl never went to. Perhaps no one realized she was on the roster. Who knows. Anyway, she passed, despite being out shopping off-campus every after noon, when she was sopposed to be at wieght lifting.
But in any event, at boarding school we were treated with respect. Staff took it easy on us and we took it easy on them. And the classes were a lot smaller, and there was much flexibility in choosing your schedule, and many teachers lived on campus and we actually had one class period called "extra help", where you could go see any teacher; if you didn't need "extra help", you could hang in your room, or to the smoking lounge or whatever.
Actually, I kind of miss boarding school.
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....and the classes were a lot smaller. Teaching or learning in larger classes (25-30) takes extra energy. And school is supposed to also teach you responsibility, how to get along with others, follow directions... kind of like a job. Which means having to be somewhere at a certain time. I taught school and its a pain in the butt having to repeat yourself for the students who blew the class off... sorry, Im just a stickler for punctuality. I now manage a restaurant and the quickest way to get fired is to NOT bother to call if youre going to be late or not show up.
And back to the subject.... some school districts get paid per student day. Number of enrolled students determines how much money school gets... but so does number of days said student shows up.
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I think the show is great and so are the staff at the program!
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Something is terribly wrong with the concept of a reality tv show that invades the privacy of children and calls it "entertainment".
Thankfully, as I hoped, even as BRAT CAMP continues to draw high ratings it has revived the controversy surrounding a treatment modality that by its very nature is inherently risky.
The backlash grows more vocal every day.
Is ABC listening?
I seriously doubt it. Why should they? Like wilderness therapy camps, ABC is first and foremost in the business of making money.
Barbe
TAUSA
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Watching a program like this is difficult. I have a lot of sympathy for the nine students. The benefit of sensational programming is that it can be a catalyst for change. For as many viewers that blindly stare at the screen and put Survivor, Fear Factor and Brat Camp in the same category (for lack of better examples), there are compassionate individuals that will use this opportunity to work to change the industry and educate parents.
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On 2005-08-03 12:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I think the show is great and so are the staff at the program!"
why?
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You can see the kids finding themselves and it is very heart warming.
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Im not sure how to take this post....
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what is heartwarming about seeing a group of children being yelled at and made to live in a prolonged hellish camping trip against their will, broadcast across the nation? How is anyone supposed to find themselves in this sort of situation? the best thing they are going to find is a way to avoid being reprimanded and punished. ie conforming
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by taking them out of their environment and letting them take responsibilty for themselves,especially on the solo, the therapy is working. They are gradually coming to grips with how they were screwing up their lives and getting the strength to change.
great episode tonight and the therapists did a great job turning the kids around
this show will go a long way towards enhancing the reputation of the good wilderness programs
The concern is still with the poor ones and the state-run ones, which all but really rich people are stuck with.
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So far I haven't watched this program - it shouldn't be on the air. It is disgusting that the networks are now exploiting children with emotional, home and behavior problems. The parents who allow this exploitation are worse than the networks. How can they expose their children's lives to the whole country. This is so outrageous.
I agree. It is horrible that there aren't laws in place to protect children from this type of exploitation. Parents should not be allowed to sign away their children's rights like this. Unfortunately, ratings and money are more important than children.
Does anyone remember the good old days when creators of television shows actually had to be creative? Televison creators today - "Heck, I'm not talented enough to actually create a story and characters. Maybe I'll just go out to the playground and look for some kids with problems to exploit." It is really sad!
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"...coming to grips with how they were screwing up..." ???
What? Trust me, as a survivor of one of these sorts of programs, learning to survive in the program, day-to-day, absolute does not ever carry over into your life post-program, nor are these "learned skills" or "issues" relevent to anything before they were committed to program. It has nothing to do with it, despite the fact that under pressure, some may delude themselves into thinking otherwise.
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...so when I tried public school in 12th grade, it just wasn't something I was going to put up with. Having to be in a classroom at a very specific time- down to the fucking bell- or else get in trouble, well I thought that was just petty. Even at my job, we generally work within a 7 minute grace period.
And one day I called myself out sick to the attendence office (cause my parents were out of town), and I got yelled at like a child. Apparantely I was not allowed to call myself out sick, even if my parents were out of town.
Public school is totally ridiculous.
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On 2005-08-03 19:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"by taking them out of their environment and letting them take responsibilty for themselves,especially on the solo, the therapy is working. They are gradually coming to grips with how they were screwing up their lives and getting the strength to change.
great episode tonight and the therapists did a great job turning the kids around
this show will go a long way towards enhancing the reputation of the good wilderness programs
The concern is still with the poor ones and the state-run ones, which all but really rich people are stuck with."
I guess you haven't seen the news...
The program isn't even finished airing yet, but one of the "brats" has already been arrested for a hate crime committed while drunk and disorderly.
It's working GREAT, huh?
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Theres lots of parents out there that arent fit to be parents. Bad example usually leads to bad behavior. Ive been to many a graduation and met the parents and wondered why the kids behavior and communication skills werent worse! Too bad foster care isnt an option anymore. Long term foster care is too expensive. So social programs have come to the conclusion (because of the almighty dollar) to try tp keep the family together. Little Timmy still lives with tweakin mom and meth cookin boyfriend in the trailer park. Great for Timmy. And unfortunately sociopaths have kids and sociopaths are born.
Happy birthday. Now go hit the karaoke bar.
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True dat. Cardiologists can do a pretty damn good job at messing up kids too. I dont know about you but Ive been to many a graduation ceremony and met the parents - if they bother to find time in their busy lives to come. And Ive been amazed that the fruit of their loins was not more rotten (just a play on words, I found 99.9% of students thrown my way to be pretty good eggs that could be reasoned with). The poor behavior and communication skills of these parents was AMAZING. And the horrible letters they sent to their kids..... whooooeeee. Nutbags. And with most of the parents it was easy to figure out how to push their buttons. Id talk to em for a few minutes and want to start messing with them because it would be easy and fun. What would I do if they were my parents????
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I don't quite follow what you are saying. What does a cardiologist have to do with messing kids up? Just trying to follow you. You sound like staff, are you? (ex that is) I am sure there are some nutjob parents out there, but I met many who were just all-American folks who needed help with their kids.
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Yes Ive worked at a couple programs not unlike TSW. What I meant was that messing up your children doesnt follow economic boundaries. You can be a doctor, pilot, crackwhore, everyones doin it. Ive met parents that were very much on the ball and felt they wasted money sending their kid to wilderness. Ive met nutbag parents that didnt have a clue one way or another and were sending the kid on to another program. And there have been parents I havent met because they didnt take time out to come to the graduation. And there were families that just rolled with the program, got what they wanted/needed, left what they didnt and moved on.hope that helps clarify what I meant.
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Just say YES! :tup:
My kid promised to run away if he was sent there.
Two months later, he was asking the staff if he could work for them when he finished school. He loved it.
They really treated the kids well.
He learned a lot of life skills, that he had no chance of learning while stoned everyday. He even learned how to cook and prepare food(in a dutch oven) while he was there too! Those camps are not ALL bad!
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On 2005-08-04 08:38:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"
On 2005-08-03 19:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"by taking them out of their environment and letting them take responsibilty for themselves,especially on the solo, the therapy is working. They are gradually coming to grips with how they were screwing up their lives and getting the strength to change.
great episode tonight and the therapists did a great job turning the kids around
this show will go a long way towards enhancing the reputation of the good wilderness programs
The concern is still with the poor ones and the state-run ones, which all but really rich people are stuck with."
I guess you haven't seen the news...
The program isn't even finished airing yet, but one of the "brats" has already been arrested for a hate crime committed while drunk and disorderly.
It's working GREAT, huh?
"
....and Bill Clinton got blow jobs under the desk in the oval office!
NEWS FLASH
Nothing is perfect!
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So I'm clueless, huh? What does that make you? Downright moronic I guess...
In case your not abreast of the news, a SECOND "Brat Camper" was arrested on very serious charges. That's two down, seven to go, and the show HASN'T EVEN FINISHED AIRING YET.
Let's assume for a moment, that it won't get any worse than it already is (although I have the sincerest doubts about that).
If the program told you, up front, that they reasonably expect that 25% of program graduates will be arrested for serious crimes within mere weeks of completing the program, would you still have sent your kid there?
I would wager that you would, because if your kid spent six months in a wilderness camp and you knew they'd be in jail for some time afterward, that would be the perfect scenario for a responsibilty-abdicating, abject failure of a parent.
You'd probably testify against your own kid to "hold him accountable," i.e. continue your vacation from parenting...
As an aside, what could be MORE PERFECT than being the most powerful man on the planet AND getting blown at work? Isn't that sort of the definition of perfect?? :nworthy:
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality"
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2005-08-06 05:57 ]
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The wilderness camp programs are usually not nearly long enough to make permanent behavioral changes in children used to getting into mischief or hurting themselves and/or others. Bad choices are hard to unlearn in 8 weeks. Just because some kids go back to their old ways after wilderness camps don't mean they are all a waste of time. It shouldnt be a shock that some of these kids are getting into trouble after the program. It doesn't mean the program is to blame. It just means the program didn't work for those particular kids.
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Ive still yet to see any program as proven good for the children that are forced into it and trapped there for a signifigant portion of these formative years of their lives, Anon.
You say there is but one way to worship the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it?
--Chief Red Jacket, Seneca Indian Chieftain
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On 2005-08-06 06:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The wilderness camp programs are usually not nearly long enough to make permanent behavioral changes in children used to getting into mischief or hurting themselves and/or others. Bad choices are hard to unlearn in 8 weeks. Just because some kids go back to their old ways after wilderness camps don't mean they are all a waste of time. It shouldnt be a shock that some of these kids are getting into trouble after the program. It doesn't mean the program is to blame. It just means the program didn't work for those particular kids."
Ding, Ding!
You can't cure (fix) adolescence.
How about a little ma and pa bonding out in the wilderness with their kid? Better yet! Send Ma and/or Pa on a solo. See if they miracuoulsy become better parents.
50 days in the wilderness?
1 week is about right.
But oops, not nearly as much money to be gleened from their stupid parents as 50-60-90 day programs.
And these parents think they are so smart as to know whether these programs help or hurt?
Hell, they can't even figure out they are being taken for a ride.
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Just say YES!
My kid promised to run away if he was sent there.
Two months later, he was asking the staff if he could work for them when he finished school. He loved it.
They really treated the kids well.
He learned a lot of life skills, that he had no chance of learning while stoned everyday. He even learned how to cook and prepare food(in a dutch oven) while he was there too! Those camps are not ALL bad!
Just because your kid did not have the balls to follow through with his threat does not mean that he thinks everything there is alright. Do you know what Stockhome Syndrome is? Thats all these kids are feeling, and they most likely enjoy the idea of a power trip. Graduates working at programs is just a good way to fuck up kids more, its a cycle.
P.S. cooking in a dutch oven is nothing, dont feel proud of that.
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cooking well in a dutch oven that's a differetn story
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Its not that hard really, I mean I have been doing it sence I was 12 and teaching it at 15. Now cooking well requires things these kids wont be given. so you know ::shrugs::
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what do you mean
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to start off with some one that wants to be careful and really wants to get it right will cook on coals, I dont think they do. Also if you get coals you need something you can move them with so you can heat the right areas. Also you need the proper food and spices. I can cook leg of lam and rice in a dutch oven, but I dont think there going to give these kids leg of lam.
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Now cooking well requires things these kids wont be given
Like what?
Love, attention, reassurance, encouragement, admiration, instruction and hope-- all things they will NEVER receive in the program.
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haha good point, but I was talking about the tools and such.
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Oh, youre the eaglescout kid
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you hate gays too?
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yeah, im the eagle scout kid, no I dont hate gays. they creep me out, but thats pretty normal for most guys.
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each to his own.
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TSW - 99% of those gay guys don't want YOU, for that matter.
Plus I know plenty of gay men who hate anal. Apparnetly theyre more into frottage :wink: He, who has nothing, and who himself belongs to another, must be defended by him, whose property he is, and needs no arms. But he, who thinks he is his own master, and has what he can call his own, ought to have arms to defend himself, and what he possesses; else he lives precariously, and at discretion.
James Burgh 1774
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What is frottage??
Niles always makes me feel like a child. Damn...
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"Frottage" is the act in which one afflicted with "Frotteurism" engages. Does that help?
Seriously, it's basically rubbing one's genitals against an unsuspecting person, usually in a public place.
For example, the NYC subways are full of frotteurs.
Imagine: Here you are, TSW, just strap-hanging to the next stop, unaware of what's happening, and there's a gay man behind you rubbing his erection on your buttocks, but you perceive it as simply a crowded subway car where people bump into one another.
Are you now realizing you've been frotted before? :idea: Isn't it gross?
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That sounds funny and creepy at the same time.
Funny only if it is happening to someone else!
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is this exposed gennies or gennies that are still in your pants?
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This describes a process in which the "gennies" remain in one's pants.
It's the clandestine nature of the event that makes it Frotteurism. Otherwise it'd be just plain 'ol sexual assault.
It is kinda funny, though isn't it?
I'm not sure if I was clear before, but it has nothing to do with being gay, just REALLY disturbed...
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Frottage is when two guys put their cocks together and have basically a double-jerk.
Grinding on someone is just that, grinding or dryjumping. Tribadism is a more specific sort of thing, that being when two women rub their genitals on the thigh of the other woman.
BTW, TSW, Im hardly trying to make anyone feel like a child o.0 Im only 20 years old, for one :silly: If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race?
--Frederic Bastiat -- 1801-1850
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I learned about tribadism on craigs list just yesterday. Fascinating.
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On 2005-08-07 15:44:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"Frottage is when two guys put their cocks together and have basically a double-jerk.
Grinding on someone is just that, grinding or dryjumping. Tribadism is a more specific sort of thing, that being when two women rub their genitals on the thigh of the other woman.
BTW, TSW, Im hardly trying to make anyone feel like a child o.0 Im only 20 years old, for one :silly: If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race?
--Frederic Bastiat -- 1801-1850
"
Niles, you are one great source for nasty information...
What I am referring to, "Frotteurism," is a diagnosable disorder, straight from the DSM-IV.
I think the way you're using the term "frottage" is a bit bastardized from the standard definition.
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Well, at least you know where the name came from :lol:
There is nothing so likely to produce peace as to be well prepared to meet the enemy.
--George Washington
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I am 40 yrs old and have never heard of any of those terms! Where would a 20 year old find out about such things? I guess innocence isn't what it used to be :roll:
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Niles, I didn't mean that like you were doing that on purpose. Really, I was just kidding. But thanks for the info.
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On 2005-08-07 19:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I am 40 yrs old and have never heard of any of those terms! Where would a 20 year old find out about such things? I guess innocence isn't what it used to be :roll: "
Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Show him how to use the net and he won't bother you for months! I think Nihles is just a damned smart young man and pathologically inquisitive. Look out. He may turn out to be the next Newton, Galleleo or Hawking. And we can all say we knew him when.
Legalizing drugs is far from a panacea for all the distress caused by drugs, but it will eliminate most of the profit and corruption from the drug trade.
--Nobel laureate, Gary S. Becker
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Id rather hang out with you than some arrogant twit in a suit with a tenure ::kiss::
Besides, if I really CAN do whatever I want to do, Id rather be a race car driver by day and a party animal by night :silly:
Also, "20" isnt an age of innocense. Innocense as in IGNORANCE is something I'd rather shorten than prolong. Life is far too short to not be a vulgar, horny youngin' for as long as humanly possible! A student burst into his office. "Professor Stigler, I don't believe I deserve this F you've given me." To which Stigler replied, "I agree, but unfortunately it is the lowest grade the University will allow me to award."
--Professor Stigler