Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on July 21, 2005, 05:28:00 AM
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http://www.teenrescue.com/html/parentinfo.htm (http://www.teenrescue.com/html/parentinfo.htm)
If your child finds out about your research and runs:
Continue with the search and find a good program to place them in. It does no good to find them if you do not have a place to go. They will only take off again. After finding a good program, go find your child, or hire someone to locate them and transport them to the program.
Things to be prepared for:
Threats of running away.
Threats of suicide or self-destruction.
Statements like, "I will hate you forever", "I will never speak to you again", "if you loved me you wouldn't do this to me", "I will sue you", "I'm going to get an attorney", "I will just live on the streets", or "I will live with my relative".
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It is very true.
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On 2005-07-21 02:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"http://www.teenrescue.com/html/parentinfo.htm
If your child finds out about your research and runs:
Continue with the search and find a good program to place them in. It does no good to find them if you do not have a place to go. They will only take off again. After finding a good program, go find your child, or hire someone to locate them and transport them to the program.
Things to be prepared for:
Threats of running away.
Threats of suicide or self-destruction.
Statements like, "I will hate you forever", "I will never speak to you again", "if you loved me you wouldn't do this to me", "I will sue you", "I'm going to get an attorney", "I will just live on the streets", or "I will live with my relative".
"
That is so sick... when will these people realize that having their kids kidnapped, incarcerated without due process, abused and mindfucked is not "rescuing" or "helping" them, it's KILLING them?
I feel sorry for the children whose parents read this sort of crap.
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We just need to find ways of reaching the kids on the internet so that they know that if they run, they'd better stay gone.
There are also pretty good books out there on how to avoid being found by investigators---private or not.
I'm not advocating that anyone run away. I'm saying that if you do run, you can't afford to be caught.
The steps are pretty obvious when you think about them:
1) Change your name. Do not use a relative's name. Do not use a name that keeps your initials--people tend to do that, so investigators look for that.
2) Practice, a lot, thinking of your new name as your name, so you answer to it without thinking about it.
3) Go to a big city multiple states away from your home. Staying in the same city is asking to be found, because most kids do stay in the same town and keep contact with their friends or move in with friends. Pick a big city where you have no relatives and no friends. There will be nothing to draw investigators to that city over any other. If you check out cities on the web, do it at your local library on their computers. If you do it on your computers at home, or a friend's or relative's computer, an investigator can find traces you leave in the system. Pick a city and state with an 18 year old age of majority where it's really hard to involuntarily commit somebody If your parents are conservative, pick a liberal city. If your parents are liberal, pick a conservative city, and choose to fit in--hostility of the locals to your parents' kind of people will work in your favor. The bigger the city, the better.
4) If you have credit cards, bank cards, etc. do not use them. Exception is if you have a bank card, you can draw out money once from an ATM near your house right before you run. Don't use a credit card to buy a bus ticket unless it's a ticket in a random direction to a random city you *aren't* going to. A good one to pick for a fake out is a city where you have relatives that disapprove of your parents or that you're close to.
5) Do not take your cell phone. It can pinpoint your location. Do not take a cell phone from a friend or relative--the investigator *will* find out about it no matter how much your friend or relative loves you. Even if they don't talk.
6) Change your appearance once before you get on the bus, and once after. A wig or non-permanent change for before the bus, permanent changes for after. For the bus trip, pick a totally different stereotype clique from your school to look like and dress like. Don't look up, keep your eyes and your head down. Cameras are up. Dress like a stereotype and the stereotype will be all people see. After the bus: change your hairstyle and color completely; alter any existing tattoos beyond recognition with temporary tatoos; clean-cut but poor is the safest stereotypical group to pick after the bus--you can have your own style after you're 18 and safe.
7) Pay cash for everything. Once you're in your new city, you can buy a disposable phone. Tell anyone who asks that you're 18 even if they look skeptical.
:cool: Spend time in the public libraries keeping up with your school subjects. It's not a place investigators will look for you, and you really will need that knowledge once you're 18 and can pick up the pieces of your life.
9) Get jobs doing the same day labor the illegal aliens get. Get in real good with the illegal aliens--get them to teach you Spanish.
10) Always answer a question in as few words as possible. It makes people think you're polite and non-boring while telling them as little about yourself as possible.
11) Avoid drugs and alcohol. They lower your inhibitions and you might confide in somebody. Don't talk about your past, don't talk about yourself. Get good at getting other people talking about themselves and changing the subject.
12) Do not make up elaborate histories for yourself. Do make up a prior life, but keep it simple. An alcoholic mom and an abusive live-in boyfriend of mom and grim silence about how he was abusive, "I just can't talk about it." is always believable.
13) If you only tell your "story" if it's practically dragged from you, and you stick to it, it's probably safe to use soup kitchens and homeless shelters.
14) Safe to go home? Probably not. Do not contact anyone you used to know, at all, until after your 18th birthday. You can explain to the people you really care about afterwards--if they really love you, they'll understand.
15) Don't trust the nice, sympathetic people who try to get you to open up or call home. They're well meaning, but naive. They, like most people, have no idea of the horrors of these facilities. Their regrets won't undo what gets done to *you*.
16) If any of these well-meaning idiots gets insistent, leave town for a different city, but pick one by the same standards you used picking the first one. You may be able to just move across town if the city is big enough.
17) If you're not in enough danger to be willing to do all this to get it right, don't run in the first place.
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Everyone knows those downsides. I don't think I made it sound fun or easy. Which was my point. I realistically listed what was involved in doing it as safely as possible.
And you miss the degenerate pedophiles and the pimps (possibly/probably) if you use the soup kitchens, the homeless shelters, and seek out the jobs the illegal aliens take. It depends on how streetwise you are.
But would you rather get molested on the street with your freedom, or get molested in a private prison with third world standards for how they treat the inmates?
It's a desperate choice, and if your situation isn't that desperate, you shouldn't run in the first place.
That's the whole point.
Timoclea
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I would have preferred to work as a hooker, rather than been at PCS. Even on the streets. I have daydreamed about it. I would have made some contacts, and soon worked for an escort service. Anyway, "working girls", get treated with more respect and have it better than kids in programs. Trust me.
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On 2005-07-21 02:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-07-21 02:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"http://www.teenrescue.com/html/parentinfo.htm
If your child finds out about your research and runs:
Continue with the search and find a good program to place them in. It does no good to find them if you do not have a place to go. They will only take off again. After finding a good program, go find your child, or hire someone to locate them and transport them to the program.
Things to be prepared for:
Threats of running away.
Threats of suicide or self-destruction.
Statements like, "I will hate you forever", "I will never speak to you again", "if you loved me you wouldn't do this to me", "I will sue you", "I'm going to get an attorney", "I will just live on the streets", or "I will live with my relative".
"
That is so sick... when will these people realize that having their kids kidnapped, incarcerated without due process, abused and mindfucked is not "rescuing" or "helping" them, it's KILLING them?
I feel sorry for the children whose parents read this sort of crap."
so some out of control kid that the parents cant raise, they should be left to raise themselves, rigt?
its not like you can physically make a 16 year old do what you want these days, thats abuse.
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On 2005-07-22 10:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-07-21 02:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-07-21 02:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"http://www.teenrescue.com/html/parentinfo.htm
If your child finds out about your research and runs:
Continue with the search and find a good program to place them in. It does no good to find them if you do not have a place to go. They will only take off again. After finding a good program, go find your child, or hire someone to locate them and transport them to the program.
Things to be prepared for:
Threats of running away.
Threats of suicide or self-destruction.
Statements like, "I will hate you forever", "I will never speak to you again", "if you loved me you wouldn't do this to me", "I will sue you", "I'm going to get an attorney", "I will just live on the streets", or "I will live with my relative".
"
That is so sick... when will these people realize that having their kids kidnapped, incarcerated without due process, abused and mindfucked is not "rescuing" or "helping" them, it's KILLING them?
I feel sorry for the children whose parents read this sort of crap."
so some out of control kid that the parents cant raise, they should be left to raise themselves, rigt?
its not like you can physically make a 16 year old do what you want these days, thats abuse."
I don't believe that there is a child out there that can't be "raised". If these people had a little more common sense, creativity, and courage, they would have found a way to work things out. Instead, they choose to just give up and pay someone else to do their parenting for them.
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I don't believe that there is a child out there that can't be "raised". If these people had a little more common sense, creativity, and courage, they would have found a way to work things out. Instead, they choose to just give up and pay someone else to do their parenting for them. "
what your missing is that this is a last resort for a lot of parents. at 14 they figured out something is wrong (kid's doing drugs or failing out of school) WHOOPS
They try to address it for two years and at 16 the kid is worse than before and bigger. No YOU the single mom cant physically stop him or her from doing whateverthefuck they want.
So you tell me, how can this child be raised?
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On 2005-07-22 11:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
I don't believe that there is a child out there that can't be "raised". If these people had a little more common sense, creativity, and courage, they would have found a way to work things out. Instead, they choose to just give up and pay someone else to do their parenting for them. "
what your missing is that this is a last resort for a lot of parents. at 14 they figured out something is wrong (kid's doing drugs or failing out of school) WHOOPS
They try to address it for two years and at 16 the kid is worse than before and bigger. No YOU the single mom cant physically stop him or her from doing whateverthefuck they want.
So you tell me, how can this child be raised?"
You say that these places are used as a "last resort". That is not true. Most parents who send their kids to programs haven't really done much to try and help their kids. They tried one or two options, then got lazy, gave up, and decided to dump the problem on someone else.
One thing I noticed, is that after a parent removes his/her child from a program, the parents become resourceful and creative and find new ways to help their child. Because they no longer take the easy way out (dumping the kid in some program), they have to rely on themselves and BE A PARENT.
Are you asking what I would do if my child was doing drugs? I'd sit him/her down for a long, good talk, explain the risks involved, and set a few ground rules: no drugs on school nights, while driving, or while working. No drugs unless you're around people you trust. No mixing of drugs and alcohol. No drugs when you're depressed/anxious/upset, etc. (I would explain my policy on this in further detail, but that would make this too long a post).
See, when kids get treated with respect, they pay back by respecting their parents. When kids are treated as if they're dangerous, irresponsible brats, they will act the part. You're the parent-- it's your choice. What kind of atmosphere do you want in your home? Do you want to make this crisis into a power struggle between you and your child? Or do you want to keep them safe, respect them and have them respect you, and reach some sort of middle ground?
I think the biggest problem is that most parents don't realize that you can never completely control another human being. Sometimes, you just need to let go, take a step back, and let your child learn from their mistakes. Make sure they know they can talk to you. Make them realize that you will respect them, listen to them, and help as much as you can. They are growing up. You can't polcie them around liek you did when they were 3. Get used to it.
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im all for treating kids with respect and giving them responsibilities.
i'm all for understanding kids will be kids, and i know there is a difference between a kid who smokes a joint or has a beer with his friends and one who has a drug problem.
i was not asking what you would do if you caught your kid doing drugs but im pleased to hear its a lot like what i would do with mine if i had one and he/she were doing the things we discussed.
i agree that sending your kid away as anything other than a last reort is wrong, you should try parenting first.
having said all that: the latest research shows that when a kid's with "drug hobbies" that seem innocent, under the right circumstances (depending on friends and their current moral constitution), become all about the conter cultrue image and as a result they stop maturing emotionally all together.
my relative in boarding school was 16.5 when he went in. his parents never punished him or anything like that, where always very respectful of his wants, provided him with everything, told him they loved him every day, did everything possible to support his few positive hobbies.
the year before being sent away this kid with a 130 IQ is failing five classes, and his parents cant even get him to pass a drug test. since he refused to pass pot tests they decided not to let him out of the house till he does (how unreasonable) the kid knows he can drink a gallon of water and pass one within three days, so essentially for failing five classes and failing 10 straight drug tests his parents gave him a three day punishment. an average kid passes a drug test and takes his punsihment. my relative decides he is a man and can run his own life, so he runs away from home, and continues to smoke pot whever he wants. of course he comes back after at most 12 hours when he gets hungry and dirty. im only a few years older than him and i tried to intervene:
"Frank, you can get good grades if you apply yourself. Do it, lay low, pass a couple of pot tests, by the time you are 17, your parents will be so happy youre getting As they will let you go wherever you want and wont dream of drug testing you because they will see you dont have a problem with drugs by your actions"
his reponses included such gems of maturity as: "no one has given me a good reason to stop smoking pot or get good grades" (sorry frank. didnt realize that your parents crying everynight wasnt a good enough reason)
and: "i dont want to go to college, im gonna go to colleges and hang out with the students and party."
i didnt want him to go to boarding school but i didnt tell him his parents were looking into it. he made it clear that he was gonna keep rebelling until his parents "got over it" like they did with his schooling. the kid had set the bar so low his parents were talking about vacational schools for a kid who shcould be a mechanical engineer
to the parents credit they realized that nothing they coukd do short of physically beating the kid would allow them to control what he did.
meanwhile im talking to the kid like we're peers and thinking on the inside "its like talking to a 12 year old in a 16 year olds body" were only a few years apart and i smoked as much pot as he did, got caught a few times, took my punishment and succeeded at life. the disconnect between me and him was amazing.
if a parent cant raise their son, be it because the have tried everything, because they are single and powerless, or because they are just plain crappy parents they have a RESPONSIBILITY to send him to someone who can. Their life, their child's life, and society will almost always be better off for it.
i know terrible things happen at these schools, but you just cant paint all of them with one brush stroke
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On 2005-07-22 11:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"im all for treating kids with respect and giving them responsibilities.
i'm all for understanding kids will be kids, and i know there is a difference between a kid who smokes a joint or has a beer with his friends and one who has a drug problem.
i was not asking what you would do if you caught your kid doing drugs but im pleased to hear its a lot like what i would do with mine if i had one and he/she were doing the things we discussed.
i agree that sending your kid away as anything other than a last reort is wrong, you should try parenting first.
having said all that: the latest research shows that when a kid's with "drug hobbies" that seem innocent, under the right circumstances (depending on friends and their current moral constitution), become all about the conter cultrue image and as a result they stop maturing emotionally all together.
my relative in boarding school was 16.5 when he went in. his parents never punished him or anything like that, where always very respectful of his wants, provided him with everything, told him they loved him every day, did everything possible to support his few positive hobbies.
the year before being sent away this kid with a 130 IQ is failing five classes, and his parents cant even get him to pass a drug test. since he refused to pass pot tests they decided not to let him out of the house till he does (how unreasonable) the kid knows he can drink a gallon of water and pass one within three days, so essentially for failing five classes and failing 10 straight drug tests his parents gave him a three day punishment. an average kid passes a drug test and takes his punsihment. my relative decides he is a man and can run his own life, so he runs away from home, and continues to smoke pot whever he wants. of course he comes back after at most 12 hours when he gets hungry and dirty. im only a few years older than him and i tried to intervene:
"Frank, you can get good grades if you apply yourself. Do it, lay low, pass a couple of pot tests, by the time you are 17, your parents will be so happy youre getting As they will let you go wherever you want and wont dream of drug testing you because they will see you dont have a problem with drugs by your actions"
his reponses included such gems of maturity as: "no one has given me a good reason to stop smoking pot or get good grades" (sorry frank. didnt realize that your parents crying everynight wasnt a good enough reason)
and: "i dont want to go to college, im gonna go to colleges and hang out with the students and party."
i didnt want him to go to boarding school but i didnt tell him his parents were looking into it. he made it clear that he was gonna keep rebelling until his parents "got over it" like they did with his schooling. the kid had set the bar so low his parents were talking about vacational schools for a kid who shcould be a mechanical engineer
to the parents credit they realized that nothing they coukd do short of physically beating the kid would allow them to control what he did.
meanwhile im talking to the kid like we're peers and thinking on the inside "its like talking to a 12 year old in a 16 year olds body" were only a few years apart and i smoked as much pot as he did, got caught a few times, took my punishment and succeeded at life. the disconnect between me and him was amazing.
if a parent cant raise their son, be it because the have tried everything, because they are single and powerless, or because they are just plain crappy parents they have a RESPONSIBILITY to send him to someone who can. Their life, their child's life, and society will almost always be better off for it.
i know terrible things happen at these schools, but you just cant paint all of them with one brush stroke
"
I agree with you that parents have a responsibility towards their children. But by sending them away, they don't exhibit responsible behavior. On the contrary. They *escape* their responsibilities by dumping the kid in a program.
You mentioned some research about kids and "counter-culture image"-- could you provide a link?
As for Frank: I can understand why he think his parents are just going to give up and let him do whatever-- they did that once already, with his schooling. They already proved that they are unable to stand by their own word and draw the lines. Now, instead of working harder to prove to Frank that he's going to have to comply with some basic household rules (as well as getting Frank a therapist to find out why he feels the need to rebel so much, and a family therapist for the whole family), they give up yet again, and dump the problem on someone else.
They are only making things worse. Frank will probably learn to comply with the rules at his boarding school eventually. But he won't leanr how to get along with and respect his parents, because he won't have that much interaction with them anymore. He won't have to live with them and get along with them and try to work something out. He won't be able to see the consequences of his actions, because he will be so far removed from his natural environment.
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As for Frank: I can understand why he think his parents are just going to give up and let him do whatever-- they did that once already, with his schooling. They already proved that they are unable to stand by their own word and draw the lines. Now, instead of working harder to prove to Frank that he's going to have to comply with some basic household rules (as well as getting Frank a therapist to find out why he feels the need to rebel so much, and a family therapist for the whole family), they give up yet again, and dump the problem on someone else.
theyve tried therapists. they tried rehab (not a great idea) and they tried enforcing the limits at home, and the kid simply would not play ball.
he was so good at manipulation he employed classical conditioning without even knowing what it was. as soon as his parents said or did anything that imposed a limit he would simply do or say something to emotionally or physically hurt them withing 15 seconds. the only way they could have succeeded in changing the child would be to move him away from the people who have the real influence on the kid: his dirtag peers and thats not fair to them.
i disagree they are making things worse by sending him away. while hes gone theyre gonna learn some parenting skills. the kid is gonna work hard to get phone time at the school (which he has to earn for the first time ever) so that he can use his parents to rescue him.
He will be IN his new natural enviornment which is A LOT more like real life than what he's used to. when you screw up in real life, life comes down on you. when you screw up at home, your parents try to come down on you but they cant really control you. its one thing when a 16 year old bucks the system mommy and daddy yell at him and tell him he cant go out.
when an 18 year old does it, he gets thrown in jail, and thats real.
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On 2005-07-22 12:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"As for Frank: I can understand why he think his parents are just going to give up and let him do whatever-- they did that once already, with his schooling. They already proved that they are unable to stand by their own word and draw the lines. Now, instead of working harder to prove to Frank that he's going to have to comply with some basic household rules (as well as getting Frank a therapist to find out why he feels the need to rebel so much, and a family therapist for the whole family), they give up yet again, and dump the problem on someone else.
theyve tried therapists. they tried rehab (not a great idea) and they tried enforcing the limits at home, and the kid simply would not play ball.
he was so good at manipulation he employed classical conditioning without even knowing what it was. as soon as his parents said or did anything that imposed a limit he would simply do or say something to emotionally or physically hurt them withing 15 seconds. the only way they could have succeeded in changing the child would be to move him away from the people who have the real influence on the kid: his dirtag peers and thats not fair to them.
i disagree they are making things worse by sending him away. while hes gone theyre gonna learn some parenting skills. the kid is gonna work hard to get phone time at the school (which he has to earn for the first time ever) so that he can use his parents to rescue him.
He will be IN his new natural enviornment which is A LOT more like real life than what he's used to. when you screw up in real life, life comes down on you. when you screw up at home, your parents try to come down on you but they cant really control you. its one thing when a 16 year old bucks the system mommy and daddy yell at him and tell him he cant go out.
when an 18 year old does it, he gets thrown in jail, and thats real."
How is a kiddie gulag "just like" real life?
In real life, you have free communication with your family, without having to "earn" it (a ridiculous concept-- communication with your parents is a RIGHT, no a priviledge).
In real life, you don't have to "earn" your privacy. In real life, you are not watched at all times. In real life, you don't have to participate in confrontational, humiliating group sessions, EST-style seminars, etc.
Programs are nothing like real life. They do not contribute anything. On teh contrary-- they only serve to circumvent a child's ability to learn from experience and to improve his/her own coping methods and general management.
Sometimes, the best thing you can do is back off, and let the kid see where his actions get him. In these boarding schools, kids are often forced to do time in solitary confinement, write long "self-correction" essays, etc. In real life, you get the natural consequence of your actions. The program teach nothing but how to avoid punishment.
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let me continue: the only thing that would fix this problem is a time machine that can take us back to when the kid was 10 (a year before his personality changed and he became stoner loser rebel frankie at 11; im not exagerating, those are the things he finds cool)
at THAT time his parents needed to see the signs of a kid that was a bit too apathetic about following rules and school, and really shrink his world till he started acting right.
as to the link i will find it and paste it here, but let me clarify one thing. the research showed that people with drug addiction tend to stop emotionally maturing and they call it a "developmental gap". knowing what little i do about neuroscinece i know that this has something to do with the frontal lobe, but i know it cant be physical damage being caused or me and some of my more mature stoner friends would have been a lot mroe screwed up than we were, and we would still be unable immature
i took the next step on my own and said it must be some cognitive barriers that the kids are setting up against their own emotional development.
taking me and my firends vs. frank and his friends at the same ages, the difference seemed pretty clear. we waited till 14 to start smoking (a lot older than 11) and by that time had a bunch of non-counter culture values ingrained in our heads. for instance, we wanted to get at least decent grades to leave college as a possibility.
we felt GUILTY not empowered when we were caught, like we disgraced our families and ourselves. we then stopped doing drugs and made sure to get decent grades at least for the next semester to prove to our parents that we were ok because, even though we thought and still think pot is harmless, we knew we were scaring our folks, and that mattered to us. we still went out and broke things, caused a scene whenever and wherever, disrespected authority, smoked in the boys room, but we had 14 year old vaules which unlike 11 year old values include concern for other people.
lets face it what is a preteen but someone only capable of thinking about themselves. from the age my cousin starting hanging with his friends his life became all about bucking the system to make his new identity: stoner frankie. with that attitude and at that age with those friends is it any surprise frankie decided traditional cultural values are not suitable for him. im not saying ites because of the pot, the pot is a symptom of his behavioral problems, but the people that it draws him too are not helping.
in my school i was considered a rebel for being a stoner at 14, and like almost everyone who starts smoking weed young i loved being a pothead, but with that i loved showing that a pothead did not necessarily need to be an idiot, and so did my boys and girls. thats the differenece.
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Sometimes, the best thing you can do is back off, and let the kid see where his actions get him. In these boarding schools, kids are often forced to do time in solitary confinement, write long "self-correction" essays, etc. In real life, you get the natural consequence of your actions. The program teach nothing but how to avoid punishment. "
trust me they did back off then they tried back on then they tried therapist then they tried rules and limits then they tried amnesty, not a single shred of appreciation for their efforts.
your right in ways it is not like real life, but to say it circumvents the kids coping skills is a joke.
what coping skills do these kids have by the way? os that supposed to be a joke? my relative, after his dad caught him steeling and got punched in the face for trying to stop him, went to live with another relative. they knew the situation and told the kid, "while we figure out what to do we wont be trying to control you" (thats the kids biggest issue, he wont stand anyone who puts a limit on him). an older relative took him to a party where there would be some college kids, and told him dont drink or smoke pot or i wont take you out again. at that point he had everything he wanted, no one told him when to go to bed, no one told him to do his summerschool work (which obviously was not done), he was his own man.
he still just couldnt miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. his older cousin caught him smoking and drinking at that party because little frankie couldnt bear the thought of these older kids not knowing exactly how cool he was.
what frankie didnt realize is that the universal opinion of him at that party was "dumb loser".
this program IS MORE LIKE REAL LIFE FOR THIS PARTICULAR KID BECAUSE at home when he got caught steeling he could lie and manipulate his way at of consequence. like life and unlike his home life, when he screws up there the consequences will be real and immediate
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On 2005-07-22 12:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"let me continue: the only thing that would fix this problem is a time machine that can take us back to when the kid was 10 (a year before his personality changed and he became stoner loser rebel frankie at 11; im not exagerating, those are the things he finds cool)
at THAT time his parents needed to see the signs of a kid that was a bit too apathetic about following rules and school, and really shrink his world till he started acting right.
as to the link i will find it and paste it here, but let me clarify one thing. the research showed that people with drug addiction tend to stop emotionally maturing and they call it a "developmental gap". knowing what little i do about neuroscinece i know that this has something to do with the frontal lobe, but i know it cant be physical damage being caused or me and some of my more mature stoner friends would have been a lot mroe screwed up than we were, and we would still be unable immature
i took the next step on my own and said it must be some cognitive barriers that the kids are setting up against their own emotional development.
taking me and my firends vs. frank and his friends at the same ages, the difference seemed pretty clear. we waited till 14 to start smoking (a lot older than 11) and by that time had a bunch of non-counter culture values ingrained in our heads. for instance, we wanted to get at least decent grades to leave college as a possibility.
we felt GUILTY not empowered when we were caught, like we disgraced our families and ourselves. we then stopped doing drugs and made sure to get decent grades at least for the next semester to prove to our parents that we were ok because, even though we thought and still think pot is harmless, we knew we were scaring our folks, and that mattered to us. we still went out and broke things, caused a scene whenever and wherever, disrespected authority, smoked in the boys room, but we had 14 year old vaules which unlike 11 year old values include concern for other people.
lets face it what is a preteen but someone only capable of thinking about themselves. from the age my cousin starting hanging with his friends his life became all about bucking the system to make his new identity: stoner frankie. with that attitude and at that age with those friends is it any surprise frankie decided traditional cultural values are not suitable for him. im not saying ites because of the pot, the pot is a symptom of his behavioral problems, but the people that it draws him too are not helping.
in my school i was considered a rebel for being a stoner at 14, and like almost everyone who starts smoking weed young i loved being a pothead, but with that i loved showing that a pothead did not necessarily need to be an idiot, and so did my boys and girls. thats the differenece."
Again-- can you provide any links to all these neuroscience/psychology/emotional development researches you keep referring to? Or are these not scientific researches at all, but your own opinions?
You seem to make a lot of generalizations. Sure, many kids go through a "selfish" phase. There are also many who do not. Not all preteens are "counter culture stoners".
That kid you keep talking about was 12-13 years old at the time. He hasn't yet decided anything about his values, attitude toward culture, etc. That will come later. Now, he's just doing what feels right at the moment. He obviously has issues to deal with, which make him behave in ways his parents don't approve of. You make a huge leap who you state that he has rejected cultural values and norms.
When I was 11, I thought smoking cigarettes was really cool. I'd sneak out of school to smoke with my friends at the park. About a year later, I grew out of it and moved on. Does that make me a "counter culture stoner", too?
So many things can change. Kids who are 11-12 years old are still pretty undeveloped as far as their values and priorities go. Locking them up prevents them from experiencing real life, and shaping their own point of view and values.
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one more thought. someone said the programs show the kid how to avoid punishment and make him wright essays: good
he could have avoided punishment by taking his 130 iq and passing high school, or god forbid telling his friends "sorry guys, super rebel cant blaze hippie lettuce today because my parents are testing me" but he never did
you said they need to step back and see where it was going. clearly you are the expert on the situation and no kid can benefeit from alternative education.
on the other hand it was pretty clear to anyone who actually knew anything about the situation and the kid where it was heading. worse every year, and eventually to prison.
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On 2005-07-22 12:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Sometimes, the best thing you can do is back off, and let the kid see where his actions get him. In these boarding schools, kids are often forced to do time in solitary confinement, write long "self-correction" essays, etc. In real life, you get the natural consequence of your actions. The program teach nothing but how to avoid punishment. "
trust me they did back off then they tried back on then they tried therapist then they tried rules and limits then they tried amnesty, not a single shred of appreciation for their efforts.
your right in ways it is not like real life, but to say it circumvents the kids coping skills is a joke.
what coping skills do these kids have by the way? os that supposed to be a joke? my relative, after his dad caught him steeling and got punched in the face for trying to stop him, went to live with another relative. they knew the situation and told the kid, "while we figure out what to do we wont be trying to control you" (thats the kids biggest issue, he wont stand anyone who puts a limit on him). an older relative took him to a party where there would be some college kids, and told him dont drink or smoke pot or i wont take you out again. at that point he had everything he wanted, no one told him when to go to bed, no one told him to do his summerschool work (which obviously was not done), he was his own man.
he still just couldnt miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. his older cousin caught him smoking and drinking at that party because little frankie couldnt bear the thought of these older kids not knowing exactly how cool he was.
what frankie didnt realize is that the universal opinion of him at that party was "dumb loser".
this program IS MORE LIKE REAL LIFE FOR THIS PARTICULAR KID BECAUSE at home when he got caught steeling he could lie and manipulate his way at of consequence. like life and unlike his home life, when he screws up there the consequences will be real and immediate"
So his relatives provided him with cigarettes, drugs, and alcohol? and let him basically do whatever he wanted? And now you're surprised that he hasn't learned to respect authority? Were the hell were his parents back then?...
Programs are nothing like real life. In real life, there are consequences. But they are *real life* consequences. Being considered a dumb loser by everybody is a consequence. Failing school is a consequence. It may take Frankie some time to figure these consequences out, but that doesn't make them non-existant.
The consequences given in programs often have nothing to do with the child "offense". Therefor, they fail to teach the child anything that can be applied to his/her situation. For example: Frankie doesn't study, and fails some classes. In real life, this could mean having to repeat the grade. In a program, he would have to write a "self correction" essay.
Consequences like that, which have nothing to do with the "offense" and which do not stem directly from it, are useless. The child can't really learn anything from them other than "don't get caught" and "do the minimum to get by".
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On 2005-07-22 12:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"one more thought. someone said the programs show the kid how to avoid punishment and make him wright essays: good
he could have avoided punishment by taking his 130 iq and passing high school, or god forbid telling his friends "sorry guys, super rebel cant blaze hippie lettuce today because my parents are testing me" but he never did
you said they need to step back and see where it was going. clearly you are the expert on the situation and no kid can benefeit from alternative education.
I don't remember stating in any of my posts that I am an "expert". By posting about this situation, you are asking for my opinion. If you are not interested in what I have to say, stop addressing me, and stop reading my posts.
on the other hand it was pretty clear to anyone who actually knew anything about the situation and the kid where it was heading. worse every year, and eventually to prison."
You're a fortune teller, I see. You know for certain that the boy would end up in prison. You're not even giving him a chance.
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Again-- can you provide any links to all these neuroscience/psychology/emotional development researches you keep referring to? Or are these not scientific researches at all, but your own opinions?
i said i would provide a link i still havnet had time to find it since im here constantly replying to people who dont even read my posts.
i say you didnt even read because i was very clear which part was the research and which part was my opinion. sorry you, like the brat child, are just gonna have to go back and earn this one on your own because if i just give it to you, you will never learn anything
That kid you keep talking about was 12-13 years old at the time. He hasn't yet decided anything about his values, attitude toward culture, etc. That will come later. Now, he's just doing what feels right at the moment. He obviously has issues to deal with, which make him behave in ways his parents don't approve of. You make a huge leap who you state that he has rejected cultural values and norms.
no i dont make any leap because i talk to this kid everyday. if you had read what i wrote you will see that IN MY OPINION it is all about the values you and YOUR FRIENDS have.
When I was 11, I thought smoking cigarettes was really cool. I'd sneak out of school to smoke with my friends at the park. About a year later, I grew out of it and moved on. Does that make me a "counter culture stoner", too?
tell me what happened to your friends. lets say it was you and two buddies. did one die of a cocain overdose, and did the other go to juvie for stabbing someone?
the guys i smoked cigrarrettes with, like your smoking buddies went on to school and had a normal life, and got good jobs.
So many things can change. Kids who are 11-12 years old are still pretty undeveloped as far as their values and priorities go. Locking them up prevents them from experiencing real life, and shaping their own point of view and values.
DID YOU READ A SINGLE WORD I WRITE BESIDES THE FIRST LINE OF EVERY PARAGRAPH. The kid is 16.5 today, failing out of school with a 130 IQ, running away from home, and getting girls pregnant. HES NOT 11 ANYMORE AND IT IS ALMOST TOO LATE. and btw, that is the age where you start developing your young adult values, by 16.5 and with a set circle of friends its just too late.
professionals have seen this kid, the parents got third fourth and fifth opinions. sorry you arent qualified to compare your life to my realtive's.
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p.s. by posting i was giving an exampple of a child who desparately needs a change of enviorment and a rude awakening. i would not dream of asking your opinion cuz you hang out on bratty teen forums and defend america's fuckups, and because we have sought the opinions of professionals and myself who is pretty damn close to one.
p.p.s. maybe he wouldnt be in prison but he was an eyelash away from dropping out of highschool. if you ask anyone who knows anything if thats a bad sign in a kid with an IQ of 130 he will say plain and simple: yes, a very bad sign.
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On 2005-07-22 12:58:00, Anonymous wrote:
i said i would provide a link i still havnet had time to find it since im here constantly replying to people who dont even read my posts.
i say you didnt even read because i was very clear which part was the research and which part was my opinion. sorry you, like the brat child, are just gonna have to go back and earn this one on your own because if i just give it to you, you will never learn anything
You really need to learn more about communication and debate. When you refer to research or articles, you need to provide a link so that people could see what you're talking about. Sure, I could go off talking about some article I read, or some research, but would you be able to comment on it if you haven't had a chance to read it yourself? Not really.
You don't really have anything of value to add, so you're getting into personal attacks. VERY mature. Calling these kids "brats" shows just how badly you think of them, which is just sad. How do pretend to "help" people you hold in such contempt?
tell me what happened to your friends. lets say it was you and two buddies. did one die of a cocain overdose, and did the other go to juvie for stabbing someone?
the guys i smoked cigrarrettes with, like your smoking buddies went on to school and had a normal life, and got good jobs.
Same with my friends. That's the way it is with most kids. They explore, they mature, they move on to bigger and greater things. Most kids just need time.
DID YOU READ A SINGLE WORD I WRITE BESIDES THE FIRST LINE OF EVERY PARAGRAPH. The kid is 16.5 today, failing out of school with a 130 IQ, running away from home, and getting girls pregnant. HES NOT 11 ANYMORE AND IT IS ALMOST TOO LATE. and btw, that is the age where you start developing your young adult values, by 16.5 and with a set circle of friends its just too late.
professionals have seen this kid, the parents got third fourth and fifth opinions. sorry you arent qualified to compare your life to my realtive's."
Yeah, I'm reading your posts. And it looks like his parents did a pretty good job at teaching him that if he makes enough of a fuss, they're just going to give up and let him do whatever he wants. And they gave up yet again-- they paid a program to do their job for them.
Qualified? Maybe on your planet people need "qualifications" to participate in a discussion. Not here. You're the one who brought this subject up, not me. Again-- if you don't want to read what I have to say, stop addressing me.
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On 2005-07-22 13:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"p.s. by posting i was giving an exampple of a child who desparately needs a change of enviorment and a rude awakening. i would not dream of asking your opinion cuz you hang out on bratty teen forums and defend america's fuckups, and because we have sought the opinions of professionals and myself who is pretty damn close to one.
p.p.s. maybe he wouldnt be in prison but he was an eyelash away from dropping out of highschool. if you ask anyone who knows anything if thats a bad sign in a kid with an IQ of 130 he will say plain and simple: yes, a very bad sign."
Your constant use of personal attacks is amusing, but it doesn't really add much to the discussion. Just proves that you don't really have much to say anymore.
By bringing this subject into the discussion-- a discussion you were having with me-- you have asked for my comment on the subject. For the third time: if you don't want to read what I have to say, stop reading my posts and stop addressing me.
There's a huge difference between being a professional and being "pretty damn close".
As for the 130 IQ issue... gifted kids are far more likely to get into trouble than "average" kids. They are far more likely to do bad at school because they often find school to be boring and unchallenging. That's common knowledge.
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So his relatives provided him with cigarettes, drugs, and alcohol? and let him basically do whatever he wanted? And now you're surprised that he hasn't learned to respect authority? Were the hell were his parents back then?...
again, a little literacy can go a long way.
had you actually listened before opening you mouth you would have read that this incedent where the older cosine made the mistake of giving him the benefeit of the doubt happened once, very recently, and will never happen again.
only after he needed to be removed from his house for ASSAULTING HIS PARENTS did that take place, and by that time alternative schooling was pretty much on the horizon. that was the straw that made me see that this kid would not change no matter what.
if the kid got b's and c's i would tell his parents "a lot of kids smoke pot every day, back off him a bit if he continues to do ok in the rest of life" but i could not find one example in the rest of his life to indicate he was "OK"
Programs are nothing like real life. In real life, there are consequences. But they are *real life* consequences. Being considered a dumb loser by everybody is a consequence. Failing school is a consequence.
those arent consequences, those are his goals, thats what he aims to do because in his messed up mind people respect him more the less he does.
It may take Frankie some time to figure these consequences out, but that doesn't make them non-existant.
your right, he will one day realize what an idiot he was, and he will stioll be an emotional midget who threw away the last best opportunities he had in life. for years he will be working to catch up, and he will probably never achieve what he could have had he learned to persevere while young.
The consequences given in programs often have nothing to do with the child "offense". Therefor, they fail to teach the child anything that can be applied to his/her situation. For example: Frankie doesn't study, and fails some classes. In real life, this could mean having to repeat the grade.
wrong again. in real life his parents stuck him n a private school to get him away from the last group of degenerates only to discover there are degenerates everywhere. in real life this same private school pushes him along because they will do anything to keep getting the parents money, you dont get left back in a private school and continue at that school. They'd stick him in summer school and rubber stamp a passing grade as they teach to the lowest common denominator, and that is exaclty where he was when he started beating up mom and dad. but of course hes just a kid who deserves yet another 2nd chance right?
In a program, he would have to write a "self correction" essay.
you mean for the first time in his life hes gonna wright an essay that wasnt copied and pasted from the internet?
Consequences like that, which have nothing to do with the "offense" and which do not stem directly from it, are useless. The child can't really learn anything from them other than "don't get caught" and "do the minimum to get by".
doing the minimum to get by is probably the most essestial skill an underachiever can learn. everyone knows high school is just a way to keep kids busy until space clears in the work force (and these days so is college). the only hard part is "turning it on" when it really does matter. even in real life, sometimes you gotta do the minimum (come to a full stop at a stop sign even when you clearly see no cars are comming) so that you can roll with society
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Your constant use of personal attacks is amusing, but it doesn't really add much to the discussion. Just proves that you don't really have much to say anymore. i didnt attack you, i stated a reality. im not asking for your opinion im sticking to the point "some kids need alternative schooling" the reason you cant handle that is because your point "all alternative schools make matters worse, and no kid needs to go to one" is universally accepted bunk.
By bringing this subject into the discussion-- a discussion you were having with me-- you have asked for my comment on the subject.
progress, thats right i asked for your opinion on the subject. that means the one we are talking about: original posters noncustodial kid and the possibility that maybe he needs an alternative education.
by trying to act like you have some insight on my situation w/o even reading the full content on my posts just tells me you are going in the wrong direction.
For the third time: if you don't want to read what I have to say, stop reading my posts and stop addressing me.
why would i do that, by actuallyr eading them and responding maybe some spineless parents who fears sending their monster to alternative school will see how shallow and superficial the arguments against these schools are.
again, im not saying all schools are equal, but thats the point. the iriginal posters school is the one i ahve experience with, and i happen to know many troubled teens.
There's a huge difference between being a professional and being "pretty damn close"
by definition something that is pretty damn close in not "a huge difference".
[q]As for the 130 IQ issue... gifted kids are far more likely to get into trouble than "average" kids. They are far more likely to do bad at school because they often find school to be boring and unchallenging. That's common knowledge.[/q]
which is all well and good until the kid reaches adulthood and is still a fuckup. oops!
by 16.5 you should be getting better not worse
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On 2005-07-21 18:50:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"18. Get picked up by degenerate pedeaphile and get molested.
Or, confide in a friend or relative, get tricked and picked up by a paid escort and delivered, in cuffs if neccessary, to a degenerate pedeophile who will laugh in their face when they try to tell anybody about what they're doing.
Do you have any idea what goes on in some of these places? Really?The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing
--Edmund Burke
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On 2005-07-22 13:19:00, Anonymous
again, a little literacy can go a long way.
had you actually listened before opening you mouth you would have read that this incedent where the older cosine made the mistake of giving him the benefeit of the doubt happened once, very recently, and will never happen again.
only after he needed to be removed from his house for ASSAULTING HIS PARENTS did that take place, and by that time alternative schooling was pretty much on the horizon. that was the straw that made me see that this kid would not change no matter what.
if the kid got b's and c's i would tell his parents "a lot of kids smoke pot every day, back off him a bit if he continues to do ok in the rest of life" but i could not find one example in the rest of his life to indicate he was "OK"
Again, you use personal attacks. Very mature, "pretty damn closer to professional". :roll:
Sounds like you really don't believe this kid is capable of anything but negative stuff. It's not a big surprise you think he should be in a program. You see these kids the exact same way the porgrams see them-- destructive, manipulative animals who do have no positive qualities whatsoever.
those arent consequences, those are his goals, thats what he aims to do because in his messed up mind people respect him more the less he does.
So maybe his parents should start asking themselves why does this kid feel like he needs to look for appreciation, respect and attention in this particular way.
your right, he will one day realize what an idiot he was, and he will stioll be an emotional midget who threw away the last best opportunities he had in life. for years he will be working to catch up, and he will probably never achieve what he could have had he learned to persevere while young.
He will have a lot more to catch up, now that he is in a program. Program stop kids from growing and maturing by not allowing them to take control of their own lives and be responsible for their own actions. In programs, kids are controlled 24/7. They have no way of making their own decisions. This kid will definitely need to learn to function on his own when he gets own-- something his non-programmed friends have learned while he was locked up.
wrong again. in real life his parents stuck him n a private school to get him away from the last group of degenerates only to discover there are degenerates everywhere. in real life this same private school pushes him along because they will do anything to keep getting the parents money, you dont get left back in a private school and continue at that school. They'd stick him in summer school and rubber stamp a passing grade as they teach to the lowest common denominator, and that is exaclty where he was when he started beating up mom and dad. but of course hes just a kid who deserves yet another 2nd chance right?
So his parents stop him from experiencing the true consequences of his actions? no wonder things turned out as they did.
And, yes, I believe everybody deserve a 2nd chance.
you mean for the first time in his life hes gonna wright an essay that wasnt copied and pasted from the internet?
Nice way to ignore the issue. I was giving this "consequence", which is often used in programs, to demonstrate how it has nothing to do with the "offense". It is not directly related to the "offense". It is simply a way to control these kids.
doing the minimum to get by is probably the most essestial skill an underachiever can learn. everyone knows high school is just a way to keep kids busy until space clears in the work force (and these days so is college). the only hard part is "turning it on" when it really does matter. even in real life, sometimes you gotta do the minimum (come to a full stop at a stop sign even when you clearly see no cars are comming) so that you can roll with society"
So, you've already decided that this kid is doomed to a life of "underachieving", low-paying jobs, and a lifestyle which will not challenge him or motivate him in any way? great...
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You really need to learn more about communication and debate. When you refer to research or articles, you need to provide a link so that people could see what you're talking about. Sure, I could go off talking about some article I read, or some research, but would you be able to comment on it if you haven't had a chance to read it yourself? Not really.
like i said im looking for my source, and at least i have one. i dont know if i can find an electronic copy, and if i cant ill scan one for you next time i get my hands on the written one. or, if you knew anything about the the field of addiction psychology you would see that this new line of thought is making huge waves. the fact that you have no idea what im talking about shows that you have no idea what your talking about.
You don't really have anything of value to add, so you're getting into personal attacks. VERY mature. Calling these kids "brats" shows just how badly you think of them, which is just sad. How do pretend to "help" people you hold in such contempt?
brat to me and most others sounds nicer and more harmless than "troubled teen" so i guess there goes that point. hows my arguing now?
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I'm out of this discussion. You're going around in circles. You obviously have no capability to have an actual discussion with anyone. You throw around comments and examples, and then get pissed when people comment on these.
Grow up, read a little about what goes in these programs, and then, maybe, try again.
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tell me what happened to your friends. lets say it was you and two buddies. did one die of a cocain overdose, and did the other go to juvie for stabbing someone?
the guys i smoked cigrarrettes with, like your smoking buddies went on to school and had a normal life, and got good jobs.
Same with my friends. That's the way it is with most kids. They explore, they mature, they move on to bigger and greater things. Most kids just need time.
why are you still not reading. you are again making my point. your friends, my friends, they moved on and had a good life.
my realative's friends are dead and felons. how much more time you think they need :smile:
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On 2005-07-22 13:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'm out of this discussion."
lol, saw that one comming
NEXT
you dont even know what the subject is. lets review how you went down in flames.
my point: some kids need alternative education
your point: all alternative education is bad
my retort: example of a child who i know and believe needs alternative education, "maybe original poster's son is the same way"
where you went wrong: you should have (had you been a little wiser) offered better alternatives to alternative schooling. instead you tried to convince me that a child classified and diagnosed by many experts, of whom i have intimate knowledge and who you have never met isnt as bad as everyone thinks. he just needs more rules. he NEEDED more rules 4 years ago, now he needs a chnage of enviorment and a rude awakening about who runs the household (remember the parents can pull him out any time, all he has to do is make up his schooling and they would bring him home in a second)
whenever something starts with "all Xs are such that" it is usually wrong. go read up on prediate logic.
btw, the fact that you hate my logic and i love shooting down yours is yet another bad sign for your case
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On 2005-07-22 13:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-07-22 13:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'm out of this discussion."
lol, saw that one comming
NEXT
you dont even know what the subject is. lets review how you went down in flames.
my point: some kids need alternative education
your point: all alternative education is bad
my retort: example of a child who i know and believe needs alternative education, "maybe original poster's son is the same way"
where you went wrong: you should have (had you been a little wiser) offered better alternatives to alternative schooling. instead you tried to convince me that a child classified and diagnosed by many experts, of whom i have intimate knowledge and who you have never met isnt as bad as everyone thinks. he just needs more rules. he NEEDED more rules 4 years ago, now he needs a chnage of enviorment and a rude awakening about who runs the household (remember the parents can pull him out any time, all he has to do is make up his schooling and they would bring him home in a second)
whenever something starts with "all Xs are such that" it is usually wrong. go read up on prediate logic.
btw, the fact that you hate my logic and i love shooting down yours is yet another bad sign for your case
"
Man, you really are that immature and pathetic, aren't you? and I was giving you the benefit of the doubt there. You try to make an expert out of yourself, shoot down anyone who doesn't agree with you, and pledge allegiance to the Teen Abuse Industry. No intelligence, no critical thinking, nothing but the need to argue. Like a small child. Maybe you should read some more about pediatric logic... you might find it all too familiar.
You lack reading comprehension skills. You lack debating skills. Most of all, you lack thinking skills. Pathetic.
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Ok, here's a thought. Maybe I'm projecting just a little. But I see the same theme played out over and over and I start to suspect that I can't be the only one. So here goes.
Here we have this kid w/ above average ability at test taking and impressing adults (if you're really into research, check into the validity of the Intelligence Quotient test... or total lack thereof) The kid hits the earliest stages of puberty and, like so many kids do, he begins to notice that the system into which he's been cast is pretty lame. Think Roger Waters here.
So, what's a kid to do? He opts out, challenging the keepers of the assylum to prove, in some way, that being a full time stoner is any less legitimate than being a compliant boob.
But, rather than acknowledge that the kid's got a point and maybe encourage him to do something better than just taking his place in line to the meat grinder, the keepers of the assylum collude to try and force him to what they deem to be the lessor of the two banefully, tragically, waste-of-a-lifetime evils.
If you can't see any but these two horrible options for this kid, I can't help you. Living well takes some imagination.
America when will you be angelic
When will you take off your clothes....
America after all it is you and I who are perfect
Not the next world.
--Allen Ginsberg
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Man, you really are that immature and pathetic, aren't you? and I was giving you the benefit of the doubt there. You try to make an expert out of yourself, shoot down anyone who doesn't agree with you, and pledge allegiance to the Teen Abuse Industry. No intelligence, no critical thinking, nothing but the need to argue. Like a small child. Maybe you should read some more about pediatric logic... you might find it all too familiar.
You lack reading comprehension skills. You lack debating skills. Most of all, you lack thinking skills. Pathetic. "
riiiittttteeeee, not much for me to respond to there :smile:
im the one who is insulting?
i dont shoot down anyone, i shoot down you.
i disagree with antigen for instance, but i can make conversation with him because of where his side of the conversation goes. as a result i can ask him a question and know that he will give a response that even if i dont agree with, i will be able to respect.
dont forget: my point: some kids need alternative education
your point: all alternative education is bad.
i mean, come on, do we really need continue?
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On 2005-07-22 13:51:00, Antigen wrote:
Here we have this kid w/ above average ability at test taking and impressing adults (if you're really into research, check into the validity of the Intelligence Quotient test... or total lack thereof)
i know all about the knocks on mr stanford and binet's big idea, and ill have you know i score very will on the B.I.T.C.H. test :wink: seriously though, i used IQ as a shortcut to saying the kid really is smart as a whip. please just take my word for it. i dont want to make this about my realtive, id rather stick to OP and whether Alt Ed is ever OK, but for now lets proceed.
The kid hits the earliest stages of puberty and, like so many kids do, he begins to notice that the system into which he's been cast is pretty lame. Think Roger Waters here.
so far so good. just like me. i love floyd and i didnt want to be another brick in the wall either,
So, what's a kid to do? He opts out, challenging the keepers of the assylum to prove, in some way, that being a full time stoner is any less legitimate than being a compliant boob.
more power to him. as far as high school goes in 24 and i still agree, so it must be true.
But, rather than acknowledge that the kid's got a point and maybe encourage him to do something better than just taking his place in line to the meat grinder, the keepers of the assylum collude to try and force him to what they deem to be the lessor of the two banefully, tragically, waste-of-a-lifetime evils.
i gotta disagree here. his only other real hobby is skateboarding which his parents did everything to encourage. they got him a computer hoping to expand his interests, but he just uses it to set up meetings with his friends when its runaway time.
If you can't see any but these two horrible options for this kid, I can't help you. Living well takes some imagination.
if it were my kid here's what i would do. "frankie, if you wanna smoke pot thats fine, i'll talk to you about responsibility with drugs and explain the difference between unwinding and being social, and having a dependence, but you gotta do something for me first..."
like his parents i would probably draw something of a line about the drug usage though.
"you are not allowed to smoke pot until you prove that you can handle SOME responsibility"
just like he shouldnt be allowed to drive 'till he can prove he wont drive drunk.
"show me that you can stay sober for one semester, get good grades, and above all respect me and your mother, and i will kinda just stop testing you"
the difference between me and this kid at the same age is pretty simple. i knew when i went to far, and i backed off. like a few people have correctly ascertained, he's figured out with his parents he can keep upping the ante and they will fold. only they wont fold on this one (i wish they took a stand on his grades primarily, but this is where they drew the line in the sand)
you ask this kid about his goals and positive things he accomplished and they only thing i can say is that he responds to you like a child.
you ask him why he wont, just for one marking period, stay sober and get good grades, he says "no one has given me a good reason to" as if he needs to be given a reason TRY to do that most basic thing which his parents ask of him.
for all this kids potential, he is seriously hindered in certain aspects of his emotional development. like a preteen he still sees himself as the center of the universe.
if he were my kid i have little doubt he wouldnt need boarding school, but with the parents he's got....
if it were my kid, he'd be going his own laundry and cooking his own food the minute he tried to tell me he doesnt value my input as a parent.
his parents are just afraid by doing this he will hurt them more. when i say "hurt them more" i used to mean only emotionaly but the situation (caused by the dynamic in the family of course) has spiraled so far out of control that this kids got no problem just hitting his parents when they stand in front of the door and say: "you havent earned the right to go out today"
were it me, i wouldnt spare the switch, but to see these parents, who love their kid so much and tell him so everyday, totally incapable of controlling him, its just sad. their health was suffering greatly.
i do think this school is a copout for the parents but the fact remains: they lack the skills to raise the monster they've created, and maybe part of the problem is that were so concerned about "the children" in this contry that the children think the world owes them something.
i say its time for frankies parents to worry about frankies parents. he wants to prove how much control he has (he does run the household), maybe they should prove they got a little control left themselves, and now that they can finally leave home for a second, they'll go on their first vacation in years, and even though they were crappy parents, they earned it. they got the A for effort weve been giving our kids for years.
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You keep transposing the o and u in quote.
The cultural hunger for a substance that lets you hold affordable conversations with God, watch walls melt, breathe colors, and explore your psyche remains unsated.
--Ryan Grim for Slate, April 1, 2004
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kids should be doing their own laundry and cooking their own food (or at least helping in the kitchen) soon as they're old enough to know how, anyway. I used to nanny, I thought it was the most pathetic thing that a 13 yr old boy didn't know how to use a washing machine! Parents want their kids to "prove their responsibility" but don't want to teach them how. For some reason it seems mothers have a way of babying their sons, then they don't know what to do when the boy goes through his "tough" stage, trying to assert his independence. I found it interesting that in the link the original poster gave for what to do if your teen runs, it says-
"As of 2000, you, the parent still has the right to place your child into a program of your choice for the healing and restoring of that child."
woohoo I has the right!! Gonna go an' get THAT child 'ight now!
It just goes to show the type of people that write these things.
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[qoute]
"You keep transposing the o and u in quote.
[/qoute]
Lair!
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woohoo I has the right!! Gonna go an' get THAT child 'ight now!
It just goes to show the type of people that write these things. "
i agree with your post but i think its more of a testament to the type of parents out there. theyre reading that and saying "i do?!"
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Three Springs-
I went to private (v. expensive) university- I know more than a few girls who worked as strippers or escorts to pay their tuition. Nothing wrong with that.
Had I needed money for tuition, I would have done the same thing. Perhaps for more spending money... It makes much more sense than to work at the mall or something.
Sex workers provide an important service to the community.
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On 2005-07-22 14:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-07-22 13:51:00, Antigen wrote:
more power to him. as far as high school goes in 24 and i still agree, so it must be true.
I love you, man! :smokin:
If you can't see any but these two horrible options for this kid, I can't help you. Living well takes some imagination.
if it were my kid here's what i would do. "frankie, if you wanna smoke pot thats fine, i'll talk to you about responsibility with drugs and explain the difference between unwinding and being social, and having a dependence, but you gotta do something for me first..."
Ok, playing the devil's advocate here (or, as it were, the alleged brat's advocate) "No, first you show me some reason why I should do anything for you. What have you gotten for your trouble?"
like his parents i would probably draw something of a line about the drug usage though.
"you are not allowed to smoke pot until you prove that you can handle SOME responsibility"
Not likely to work. The only thing that ever kept me away from really ruinous drug habits was firsthand observation of authentic stoners, burnd out acid heads, junkies and drunks. Of those, seems that alcohol is the only one that can really take you unawares. The rest seem to have really worked at getting where they are. I tell my own kids to practice moderation and to pay close attention to ppl who have been at it for decades; both for examples of what to do and what not to do.
just like he shouldnt be allowed to drive 'till he can prove he wont drive drunk.
Is that how we do it? Where? Where I come from, you get a license if you can prove road rules knowledge and minimum skill. You don't have to prove you won't drive drunk. How can you prove a negative, anyway? In the real world, you only get spanked if you do drive drunk and then either mess up or get busted before you do. If you want your kid to not drive drunk, you have to demonstrate that they can trust you in all respects to get them home if (when) their plans fall through and they're otherwise stranded. (speaking from expeirience here). Oh, and never try and lecture a drunk! It's like brining a knife to a gun fight w/ a man in full body armor. Wait till morning or afternoon.
"show me that you can stay sober for one semester, get good grades, and above all respect me and your mother, and i will kinda just stop testing you"
Back again. Show me why it's worth my time and trouble to get the teacher to give me a good grade; stoned or sober. I gave my own younger cousin the same advice many, many years ago when his parents were sweating him. It missed the point, but he wound up being a compliant, military boob anyway, so it was probably a waste of breath on my part anyway.
the difference between me and this kid at the same age is pretty simple. i knew when i went to far, and i backed off. like a few people have correctly ascertained, he's figured out with his parents he can keep upping the ante and they will fold. only they wont fold on this one (i wish they took a stand on his grades primarily, but this is where they drew the line in the sand)
you ask this kid about his goals and positive things he accomplished and they only thing i can say is that he responds to you like a child.
Well, he is a child! Wait till you're 40, watching 20yo's fumbling through life, thinking they're all grown up!
Tell him about Admiral Farragut or Mark Twain or Thomas Jefferson. It's not a stretch at all to be an acomplished adult by the age of 15 or so. But, if he's going to reject the family's and society's plans for him, then rather than insist that he not do that, why not challenge him to aspire to something better?
you ask him why he wont, just for one marking period, stay sober and get good grades, he says "no one has given me a good reason to" as if he needs to be given a reason TRY to do that most basic thing which his parents ask of him.
Well, think of what you're asking. Typical school kid has to get up early, every day, and dedicated themselves to something like a job w/o pay; aka slave labour. Hell yeah, if I'd thought of it when I was 11, I'd damned sure want a good reason to jump through those hoops. Does it really take that much imagination to come up w/ plausible reasons for doing that?
There are perfectly good, plausible reasons, you know. They're just not obvious to all kids.
for all this kids potential, he is seriously hindered in certain aspects of his emotional development. like a preteen he still sees himself as the center of the universe.
if he were my kid i have little doubt he wouldnt need boarding school, but with the parents he's got....
But we're not talking about a good boarding school. Have they looked into the Grotan school? Or how about something a little more challenging, like The Sudburry School? Do you understand the difference between reform school and authentic, academic boarding school? Never mind the marketing. Ask for references!
if it were my kid, he'd be going his own laundry and cooking his own food the minute he tried to tell me he doesnt value my input as a parent.
If he were my kid, he'd be doing those things as a matter of course as soon as I deemed him able to do so. Ask any of my kids. I only do those things for them when I deem their alternative commitments to be more worthy of their time than mine.
his parents are just afraid by doing this he will hurt them more. when i say "hurt them more" i used to mean only emotionaly but the situation (caused by the dynamic in the family of course) has spiraled so far out of control that this kids got no problem just hitting his parents when they stand in front of the door and say: "you havent earned the right to go out today"
The right to go out? We're still back at the original conflict here. Everyone has the right to come and go and do as they please, provided they don't violate the rights of others. We're still talking about trying to force a smart kid to accept an unpaid job that he's rejected on lack of merit. When will the alleged adults in this story start making a solid, logical case for something better than the two opitions this kid seems to think he has to choose from?
were it me, i wouldnt spare the switch, but to see these parents, who love their kid so much and tell him so everyday, totally incapable of controlling him, its just sad. their health was suffering greatly.
Well, what is growing up but throwing off parental controls? Seems asif this kid already views himself as master of his own fate. If you want to influence him positively, forget about strong arm controls. Start thinking about appealing to his sense of reason and intillect.
i do think this school is a copout for the parents but the fact remains: they lack the skills to raise the monster they've created, and maybe part of the problem is that were so concerned about "the children" in this contry that the children think the world owes them something.
Well, just see if you can stay on good terms w/ the school so that you don't lose contact w/ the kid. He'll likely need your support and understanding very shortly.
i say its time for frankies parents to worry about frankies parents. he wants to prove how much control he has (he does run the household), maybe they should prove they got a little control left themselves, and now that they can finally leave home for a second, they'll go on their first vacation in years, and even though they were crappy parents, they earned it. they got the A for effort weve been giving our kids for years."
That was my idea when I left home for the first time at age 14. My big mistake was poor planning. I should have hooked up w/ some way to provide for my own basic needs in the month or so it took me to take the high road to my sister for advice. Looking back, I cry bitterly over the wealth I could have gotten out of a bunch of dumb Deadheads by selling them tokens and legends, if only I'd had at least that much direction.
Oh well. At any rate, you're obviously a thinking man and very much concerned for your younger cousin. Till you get it all figured out, just be careful not to lose contact. Sounds like this kid could use a credible, respectable mentor more than anything. I just hope he's got the rocks to resist the brainwasing I hear tell of at the Family School. Isn't it an offshoot of DeSisto?
No laws, however stringent, can make the idle industrious, the thriftless provident, or the drunken sober
--Samuel Stiles
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
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On 2005-07-22 14:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"[qoute]
"You keep transposing the o and u in quote.
[/qoute]
Lair!"
ROFLMAO!!! :rofl: The legislature is to society as a physician is to the patient. If a physician ignored side effects of medications like today's legislators ignore the side effects of their legislation, the physician would be accused of malpractice. I accuse today's legislators (with rare exception) of legislative malpractice. Many of the ills that are so obvious in our society are a direct result of previous legislation. Their solution? More laws!
-- John A. Bennett, DO
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Just a note. Much of the research referenced in popular media is total and utter bullshit; most especially wrt the highly politicized area of substance abuse.
Do the kids who are put on ritalin and adderal come to a screeching developmental hault? No? How come? Yes? Then why do we put them on it?
Check your sources if you're going to quote them. You'll be surprised. In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.
--James Madison, U.S. President
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it were my kid here's what i would do. "frankie, if you wanna smoke pot thats fine, i'll talk to you about responsibility with drugs and explain the difference between unwinding and being social, and having a dependence, but you gotta do something for me first..."
Ok, playing the devil's advocate here (or, as it were, the alleged brat's advocate) "No, first you show me some reason why I should do anything for you. What have you gotten for your trouble?"
thats where the shrinking world comes in. i would have started years ago shrinking his world, and the fact that i dont instantly crucify him for being caught smoking weed will be cool in and of itself. its more like what you wont get for my trouble.
----------------------------------------
like his parents i would probably draw something of a line about the drug usage though.
"you are not allowed to smoke pot until you prove that you can handle SOME responsibility"
Not likely to work. The only thing that ever kept me away from really ruinous drug habits was firsthand observation of authentic stoners, burnd out acid heads, junkies and drunks. Of those, seems that alcohol is the only one that can really take you unawares. The rest seem to have really worked at getting where they are. I tell my own kids to practice moderation and to pay close attention to ppl who have been at it for decades; both for examples of what to do and what not to do.
i still think im pretty liberal for letting him slide on the reefer, but like anything else my kids gotta earn the right. nothing is free and thats a big part of it.
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just like he shouldnt be allowed to drive 'till he can prove he wont drive drunk.
Is that how we do it? Where? Where I come from, you get a license if you can prove road rules knowledge and minimum skill. You don't have to prove you won't drive drunk. How can you prove a negative, anyway?....
i hope my kid would have the wherewithall to walk to the DMV and get his own licence, sure, but how will a full time highschool student buy his own car...
In the real world, you only get spanked if you do drive drunk and then either mess up or get busted before you do. If you want your kid to not drive drunk, you have to demonstrate that they can trust you in all respects to get them home if (when) their plans fall through and they're otherwise stranded. (speaking from expeirience here). Oh, and never try and lecture a drunk! It's like brining a knife to a gun fight w/ a man in full body armor. Wait till morning or afternoon.
im with you there
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"show me that you can stay sober for one semester, get good grades, and above all respect me and your mother, and i will kinda just stop testing you"
Back again. Show me why it's worth my time and trouble to get the teacher to give me a good grade; stoned or sober. I gave my own younger cousin the same advice many, many years ago when his parents were sweating him. It missed the point, but he wound up being a compliant, military boob anyway, so it was probably a waste of breath on my part anyway.
why, because my kid has a healthy fear of me. not to say i will hit him (much), and i will combine that with some positive reinforcement for good grades. "son, your job is to do well enough in school to save mom and me the trouble of paying tuition. till then, ill pay you for As." this way its not so slave labory,
----------------------------------
the difference between me and this kid at the same age is pretty simple. i knew when i went to far, and i backed off. like a few people have correctly ascertained, he's figured out with his parents he can keep upping the ante and they will fold. only they wont fold on this one (i wish they took a stand on his grades primarily, but this is where they drew the line in the sand)
you ask this kid about his goals and positive things he accomplished and they only thing i can say is that he responds to you like a child.
Well, he is a child! Wait till you're 40, watching 20yo's fumbling through life, thinking they're all grown up!"
i dont mean to sound arrogant, but most 40 year olds would at least like to have my income. i see what you mean though. us 20 somethings tend to fumble from time to time.
Tell him about Admiral Farragut or Mark Twain or Thomas Jefferson. It's not a stretch at all to be an acomplished adult by the age of 15 or so. But, if he's going to reject the family's and society's plans for him, then rather than insist that he not do that, why not challenge him to aspire to something better?
once again youre right ill contest one thing. when i say he responds like a child, i mean like a child that is 5 years younger than him. before he used to say i wanna be a power ranger, then he wanted to be a pro skateboarder, now he just wants to be left alone by his overbearing (really way to lenient parents).
i tried, when tutoring him, to expand his world a bit. computers, welding, that kind of thing. he like electricity but his goal is to get into the union cuz he thinks that means no work and guarenteed income. but with my kid i bet i would succeed.
--------------------------------
you ask him why he wont, just for one marking period, stay sober and get good grades, he says "no one has given me a good reason to" as if he needs to be given a reason TRY to do that most basic thing which his parents ask of him.
Well, think of what you're asking. Typical school kid has to get up early, every day, and dedicated themselves to something like a job w/o pay; aka slave labour. Hell yeah, if I'd thought of it when I was 11, I'd damned sure want a good reason to jump through those hoops. Does it really take that much imagination to come up w/ plausible reasons for doing that?
here's the reason his parents have tried that werent good enough: because i will bestow rewards upon you. because i will let you go out whenever you want and stay out on non-school nights as you chose. because i will not crawl up your butt, and let you live your life if you can only show me you are an adult.
There are perfectly good, plausible reasons, you know. They're just not obvious to all kids.
i like to think i'd come up with some good ones for my fictitious child.
-------------------------
for all this kids potential, he is seriously hindered in certain aspects of his emotional development. like a preteen he still sees himself as the center of the universe.
if he were my kid i have little doubt he wouldnt need boarding school, but with the parents he's got....
But we're not talking about a good boarding school. Have they looked into the Grotan school? Or how about something a little more challenging, like The Sudburry School? Do you understand the difference between reform school and authentic, academic boarding school? Never mind the marketing. Ask for references!
unfortunately his parents didnt do much looking into on their own but they got an educational consultant to do the research for her, but i dont trust anyone with "consultant" in their titile so here i am looking for people w/ experience.
----------------------
if it were my kid, he'd be going his own laundry and cooking his own food the minute he tried to tell me he doesnt value my input as a parent.
If he were my kid, he'd be doing those things as a matter of course as soon as I deemed him able to do so. Ask any of my kids. I only do those things for them when I deem their alternative commitments to be more worthy of their time than mine.
you sound like a good parent. i agree but keep in mind, my relative got caught smoking weed at 11. i dont think i was allowed to play with the stove at 11 (not that i didnt want to). in any case, he woulda had to learn at that point.
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his parents are just afraid by doing this he will hurt them more. when i say "hurt them more" i used to mean only emotionaly but the situation (caused by the dynamic in the family of course) has spiraled so far out of control that this kids got no problem just hitting his parents when they stand in front of the door and say: "you havent earned the right to go out today"
The right to go out? We're still back at the original conflict here. Everyone has the right to come and go and do as they please, provided they don't violate the rights of others. We're still talking about trying to force a smart kid to accept an unpaid job that he's rejected on lack of merit. When will the alleged adults in this story start making a solid, logical case for something better than the two opitions this kid seems to think he has to choose from?
youve hopefully read my comments about the options he was given, and you see that to his parents credit they did try to make it more than slave labor and increase the rewards for doing right by school. that went to the back burner with the caught-smoking-weed-at-11 and now i refuse to pass a piss test. i wish they had laid off the DT and concentrated more on school, but weed was their line in the sand and here we are.
i will say this: anyone has a right to come and go as they please BUT when they prove as my relative has that they cannot make a responsible descision when going out, well i as a parent have a right to take their right-to-party away.
you dont elt a toddler wander into the street cuz he is not mature enough to cross on his own.
letting an 11 year old who is caught smoking weed come and go as he pleases is a lot like that.
dont get me wrong, i got nothing against the grass, but when someone feels ok bucking the system in that way at 11, that is a bit scary.
---------------------------
>were it me, i wouldnt spare the switch, but to see these parents, who love their kid so much and tell him so everyday, totally incapable of controlling him, its just sad. their health was suffering greatly.
Well, what is growing up but throwing off parental controls? Seems asif this kid already views himself as master of his own fate. If you want to influence him positively, forget about strong arm controls. Start thinking about appealing to his sense of reason and intillect.
they mostly appeal to his emotions to guilt him into acting right. and also, its not like you wanna teach the lesson that you can fail at life and play video games all day.
his parents dont think that way, but i see your point. then again i'd be pretty pissed if my kid tried to push me out of the way and tell me i cant make him go to his room, and infact he's gonna leave.
i think the best way to appeal to his intellect at that point is have the back of my hand administer a quick lesson about action consequence. he will have a better grasp of logic for it.
of course my fictitius kid, at that point, listens when i say he fucked up.
------------------------------
i do think this school is a copout for the parents but the fact remains: they lack the skills to raise the monster they've created, and maybe part of the problem is that were so concerned about "the children" in this contry that the children think the world owes them something.
Well, just see if you can stay on good terms w/ the school so that you don't lose contact w/ the kid. He'll likely need your support and understanding very shortly.
to be honest, im concerned that they dont let him talk much to family. i already talked to the school about letting me speak with him and they agreed. i want to tell him to take on extra classes to see if he can get caught up in school and get out of there ASAP. im used to the little bastard, i dont want to see him gone for too long.
i dont like the idea that "its an 18 month program cuz hes an addict that needs to be reformed." he just needs the responsibility and respect, and everything will fall into place (though he will probably still take massive bong tokes with his boys)
i also fear that they try hard to keep the kid there for the whole time. right now im just being supportive of his parents, but when i get some interaction with the kid, if i feel like he's changed, ill put the idea in their head to trust their gut more than the school if they feel like the kid is ready to come out.
im already prepping them "look if in 18 months hes a straight A student on his way to a good school, who says please and thank you, and above all respects you (his folks).
let him smoke a joint with his buds from time to time" they just say, fine but not in my house.
-----------------
i say its time for frankies parents to worry about frankies parents. he wants to prove how much control he has (he does run the household), maybe they should prove they got a little control left themselves, and now that they can finally leave home for a second, they'll go on their first vacation in years, and even though they were crappy parents, they earned it. they got the A for effort weve been giving our kids for years
That was my idea when I left home for the first time at age 14. My big mistake was poor planning. I should have hooked up w/ some way to provide for my own basic needs in the month or so it took me to take the high road to my sister for advice. Looking back, I cry bitterly over the wealth I could have gotten out of a bunch of dumb Deadheads by selling them tokens and legends, if only I'd had at least that much direction.
Oh well. At any rate, you're obviously a thinking man and very much concerned for your younger cousin. Till you get it all figured out, just be careful not to lose contact. Sounds like this kid could use a credible, respectable mentor more than anything. I just hope he's got the rocks to resist the brainwasing I hear tell of at the Family School. Isn't it an offshoot of DeSisto?
im not sure about desito ill look into it. thanks for the advice, and feel free to keep giving. you are obviously a great dad/mom/guardian. if i ever do have kids i'd want them to hang out with yours.
i know i must sound arrogant having no kids and talking about how i would raise mine, but i honestly beleive, if i decide not to do the world a favor and have children, i would make a good parent.
as for my cousin, i only wish i had been able to get through to him a bit more. his parents great idea when i was tutoring him was to have me dole out the phnishments because they didnt want to be the bad guys. big mistake. after that and before that he would listen to me, but i couldnt get passed the influence of his friends.
im a hypocrite for trying to make him not smoke pot, anyway, but i knew his parents wouldnt back down on it and now his ass got sent away...
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moderator, please remove highest level of quote
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Ok, is that about right? This is getting really confusing. Why not register a login name. No need to give any legit info. if you don't want to. But if you have a login, you can edit and correct your own posts.
The orientation of the public school in and of itself disenfranchises the poor. It suggests that only the student can be held responsible for failure; the institution, because of its position and strength in society, is unassailable.
--Rodger Hurley
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Well, just a couple of thoughts. First, I hope you understand why it's so difficult to get information out of these places. Think about it. They strictly limit and monitor all communications. So the kids can't tell anybody when something really messed up happens. And, under these circumstances, something messed up is bound to happen more often than out in the real world simply because these kids are made extremely vulnerable. If he tells you or his parents or anyone anything negative about the school or staff or anything that happens, they'll just say he's lying and punish him for it.
W/ those limits on communication, it's very nearly impossible to prove anything. So people are extremely hesitant to make any kind of statement because they may get sued. See if you can get some info from local authorities about the schools legal life. Have they been sued? Have they filed a lot of suits for trademark infringement or libel? Are there complaints w/ CPS? What about the people who run the place? What are their histories? Just use Google and see if and in what context their names come up. Ask around town wherever the place is located and see what the locals have to say about it.
I don't think you're at all arrogant to be thinking ahead about how you'll raise your kids in future. That's just the sensible thing to do.
The only logical mistake I think you're making is in failing to recognize that, after a certain point, you can't (not should not, but can not) control a human being, even if they used to be your obedient, dependant little kid. By sending the kid off to reform school (and everything else you describe), they're saying "Do as I say because, if you don't, we'll hurt you... now, run along to your classes and don't be a bully!"
Doesn't make much sense. Instead, why not talk about whether or not he's right about school or anything else. Fact is, he's got a pretty good point about union work, too. It's not QUITE that simple; you have to get past the journeyman hazing phase. And it is a bureaucracy, just like school, popularity contest and stupid rules and all. But once you've got some seniority, you really can loaf and get paid for it. I just can't imagine aspiring to being a loafer. That's a really sad outlook.
When I talk about making a logical argument for doing well in school, I mean concrete benefits for the effort. If the kid just wants to join the union, then all he needs is a GED. Can you show me how that's not correct?
He who laughs lasts
--Crazy Mac
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On 2005-07-23 10:21:00, Antigen wrote:
"Well, just a couple of thoughts. First, I hope you understand why it's so difficult to get information out of these places. Think about it. They strictly limit and monitor all communications. So the kids can't tell anybody when something really messed up happens. And, under these circumstances, something messed up is bound to happen more often than out in the real world simply because these kids are made extremely vulnerable. If he tells you or his parents or anyone anything negative about the school or staff or anything that happens, they'll just say he's lying and punish him for it.
I've been thinking about this. we speak a kinda rare language and im probably as good at manipulating as he and the school put together, so i'm thinking of getting some sort of code going to tell him "take on extra classes and get caught up, and ill convice your parents to get you out of there ASAP.
i could talk to him about going w/ the program for three minutes then throw in a "its like grandpa always said "fai o teu travalho, actualiza os teus cursos, e eu falare cos teus pais pra que te deixan sair mais cedo" which translates to "make up your back classes ASAP and ill convince your folks to take you out early.
The only logical mistake I think you're making is in failing to recognize that, after a certain point, you can't (not should not, but can not) control a human being, even if they used to be your obedient, dependant little kid. By sending the kid off to reform school (and everything else you describe), they're saying "Do as I say because, if you don't, we'll hurt you... now, run along to your classes and don't be a bully!"
i agree. my role had just been to say: Frank, you either gotta start getting good grades, stop disrespecting your folks, or stop smoking pot (there i go being a hypocrite) or they will send your ass away where you cant even talk to your gf. The fact remains if he had done any of those things he would still be home, but the fricken kid was to spoiled to consider it.
of course, his parents didnt raise him right to that point, its not really entirely his fault, we all recognize that...
It's not QUITE that simple; you have to get past the journeyman hazing phase. And it is a bureaucracy, just like school, popularity contest and stupid rules and all. But once you've got some seniority, you really can loaf and get paid for it. I just can't imagine aspiring to being a loafer. That's a really sad outlook.
thats exactly my problem. i tell him: you could be an electrical engineer if you aspired to actualize your potential just a tiny bit. besides, i dont know anything about unions, but i assume its possible to be kicked out of one, and that is exactly what will happen to him... one of his favorite things to brag about is how lazy he is. but thats just really his way of saying "i run from responsibility of any kind"
When I talk about making a logical argument for doing well in school, I mean concrete benefits for the effort. If the kid just wants to join the union, then all he needs is a GED. Can you show me how that's not correct?
i told his parents at one point to get him his GED. i figured once he was out of school with nothing to look foreward to in his future but learning some trade, he would decide pretty quick to go to community college.
i'll be honest, he's my blood, and i love him, but seeing what he does to my family, i cant help but feel kinda vindicated! "I warned your ass!" i know thats wrong.
anyway, i heard some kid committed suicide at the school, but according to published reports the school did everything in their power to prevent it.
anyway, ive always felt that what doesnt kill you makes you stronger...
i know you cant make a kid an obedient robot passed a certain age, but i think his parents feel like "we were always so lenient, and now we are asking for this one thing". of course, the leniency, the low expectations, and the early autonomy are probably a source of this problem