Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Straight, Inc. and Derivatives => Topic started by: starry-eyed pirate on June 15, 2005, 08:24:00 PM
-
Revolution(peaceful)...?
What if we all... just realized how strong we are?
-- starry-eyed :skull: :smile:
-
:tup:
-
I tend to agree...
We all seem to have no trouble realizing how strong THEY are...figuratively.
-
You have my arms in it if you can use me. yet there is no such thing as a peaceful revolution.
A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another; shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement
Thomas Jefferson
-
:skull: [ This Message was edited by: Exit Plan on 2005-06-16 12:10 ]
-
I have thought about this post all day. What is it that we should revolt against/for? Sounding a battle cry and rallying the troups arouses alot of emotion but to what good, if the end results are not specified.
I appreciate the enthusiasim (sp) but question the result. Would the effort applied to this "revolution" idea be that more powerful if in fact the "revolution" first start within before efforts are aimed outward.
Another thought... "It is not enough to have something to fight against, we must have someting to fight for." A quote from the Three Musketeer's, I think...I dont recall where I first heard it.
-
Yeah, i hear ya. i am just expressin' a feelin' i get when i start to get all like indignant or somethin'and even if i wasn't i couldn't talk about it here. i used to fantasize about throwin' a malotov cocktail through the front window at 5515 backlick rd. but now i'm all disillusioned with violence. :skull:
-
You sound like such a flower child. ::rainbow::
I give money for church organs in the hope the organ music will distract the congregation's attention from the rest of the service.
--Andrew Carnegie, Scottish-born American industrialist and philanthropist
-
i grew up a militant, but now i'm just a militant prankster ::rainbow::
-
On 2005-06-16 14:20:00, Woof-a-Doof wrote:
"I have thought about this post all day. What is it that we should revolt against/for? Sounding a battle cry and rallying the troups arouses alot of emotion but to what good, if the end results are not specified.
I appreciate the enthusiasim (sp) but question the result. Would the effort applied to this "revolution" idea be that more powerful if in fact the "revolution" first start within before efforts are aimed outward.
Another thought... "It is not enough to have something to fight against, we must have someting to fight for." A quote from the Three Musketeer's, I think...I dont recall where I first heard it."
We must have something to fight for.....
Very good point!
Unification around a single goal is one of the tools of political action. Find a plank, a platform, a point and grab onto it with the tenacity of a pit bull. Ever'bod on that point always, insist on it, codified line by line by line, no deviation, no individual analysis. Works good, (like a telemarketing script)
This method, effective as it may be, is also the source of bullheaded, astigmatic and inflexible attitudes and Faith-based vs. Reality-based policy.
"Don't bother me with the facts!"
"The Bible says it, I believe it and that settles it!"
"WHAT! you don't "Feel That" WHAT? Then you're a @#$% and a !@#$ and yo'mama too!"
Now what is IT? Do we have a common destination? And who is we?
We exchange ideas on WWF...I find quite a variety here, from angry and reactive to thoughtful and well written. We have our differences, our own personal icks and squicks.
None of us is as dumb as all of us.
Who is US, and what do we want of a revolution? Keep talkin'
There is somethin happenin' here,
What it is ain't exactaly clear,
There's a man with a gun over there,
Tellin' me I've got to beware
You got to stop, children,
What's that sound?
Ever'body look what's goin down.
-Buffalo Springfield
Check this discussion, http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... forum=9&15 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=10419&forum=9&15)
somethings goin' down in Memphis TN..... and it's got worldwide attention.Screening pre-school kids for anti-social behavior is about as useful as screening the Christian Coalition for sanctimonious behavior.
Sanho Tree
-
hmmm
-
Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:
1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.
6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed
to the government's policies or actions.
9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
Does any of this sound familiar?
When the government's boot is on your throat, whether it is a left boot or a right boot is of no consequence.
-- Gary Lloyd
-
No peaceful revolution? Hmmmm A few thoughts, not all my own, but ones I have pieced together and they make sense to me.
To revolt within society in order to make it a little better, to bring about certain reforms, is like the revolt of prisoners to improve their life within the prison walls; and such revolt is no revolt at all, it is just mutiny. Do you see the difference? Revolt within society is like the mutiny of prisoners who want better food, better treatment within the prison; but revolt born of understanding is an individual breaking away from society, and that is creative revolution.
To have peace, we must be peaceful; to live peacefully means not to create antagonism. Peace is not an ideal. To me, an ideal is merely an escape, an avoidance of what is, a contradiction of what is. An ideal prevents direct action upon what is. To have peace, we will have to love, we will have to begin not to live an ideal life but to see things as they are and act upon them, transform them. As long as each one of us is seeking psychological security, the physiological security we need ? food, clothing and shelter ? is destroyed. We are seeking psychological security, which does not exist; and we seek it, if we can, through power, through position, through titles, names ? all of which is destroying physical security.
To bring about peace in the world, to stop all wars, there must be a revolution in the individual, in you and me. Economic revolution without this inward revolution is meaningless, for hunger is the result of the maladjustment of economic conditions produced by our psychological states ? greed, envy, ill-will and possessiveness. To put an end to sorrow, to hunger, to war, there must be a psychological revolution and few of us are willing to face that. We will discuss peace, plan legislation, create new leagues, the United Nations and so on and on; but we will not win peace because we will not give up our position, our authority, our money, our properties, our stupid lives. To rely on others is utterly futile; others cannot bring us peace. No leader is going to give us peace, no government, no army, no country. What will bring peace is inward transformation, which will lead to outward action. Inward transformation is not isolation, is not a withdrawal from outward action. On the contrary, there can be right action only when there is right thinking and there is no right thinking when there is no self-knowledge. Without knowing yourself, there is no peace.
-
Right on, Woof-a-doof. i like your words. There is a lot in what you wrote. i think i'll have to come back and re-read for a more critical look later. i was just wondering, Do i detect the influences of Buddhist philosophy and /or Krishnamurti in what you wrote? PEACE.
-starry-eyed.
-
Reality is just electrical and chemical reactions in the brain...
-
On 2005-06-17 08:05:00, linchpin wrote:
"hmmm
"
linchcunt for sure
-
bill to end institutionalized child abuse
http://www.petitiononline.com/hr1738/petition.html (http://www.petitiononline.com/hr1738/petition.html)
-
hey linchcunt - still fucking animals after you shoot your junk? I am amazed that you are such a worthless piece of shit. I guess when you were told that in straight it was true. Linchcunt, linchcunt
linchcunt :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
-
On 2005-06-18 11:41:00, starry-eyed pirate wrote:
"Do i detect the influences of Buddhist philosophy and /or Krishnamurti in what you wrote?
-starry-eyed."
Oh yes, Buddist, Krishamurti, both J & UG, as well as Nasagardat Maharshi, Sri Ramana Maharshi, Sri H.W.L. Poonjaji, Black Elk of the Lakota Souix and a host of others. So yeah, lot's of influences. They all speak of revolution.
-
cool influences Woof-a-doof ::rainbow:: :smokin:
-
UG, as well as Nasagardat Maharshi, Sri Ramana Maharshi, Sri H.W.L. Poonjaji,"
[/quote]
Woof-a-adoof, who are these people? i began to read Krishnamurti after straight when i was already like 21 or 22 or somethin' and really dug him. Buddhism too. Other ways too. But i haven't heard of these other teachers you give creedence to. Who are they?
i feel like before straight i was just tryin to maintain my freedom of choice in an increasingly insecure and reactionary society. i tended to ignore all threats and attempts to coerce or otherwise blackmail or manipulate me into submission. Manipulation ,blackmail, kidnapping and coercion are the tactics of the exremely deluded and desperate. i was very clear-minded and flowed with the Tao without knowin' the Tao, like water. i was not completely unnatached to the results of my actions, i was carryin' karma, but i was uneffected by all authoritarian attemps to intimidate me. i wonder if i was singled out and selected for persecution because i realize that authority is an illusion, sustained by fear, caused by attachment to the results of ones' actions. They couldn't make me accept their lies and deceptions so they put me in straight.
How 'bout that part in "Pinnochio" when he is on the island of the donkey boys? i forget exactly what was happening there in that part of the story but if i just slow it down some and think freely about it and let all my associations slide i begin to see the relationships between the whip that the slave-owner draws out the life with and the focusing of the attention of ones'own mind on the results of ones' actions, somehow. How fear drives one into reactionary confusion and sickness.
i think straight used my ganja smokin' as a pretext to incarcerate and mind-rape me. i think the establishment fears the loss of their illusion of control. straight was the last line of defense against the overthrow of their false authority; The lies, the false gods they want us to pray to. They don't want you to know that you are God, that God is in you, that you are creation. "The mighty God is livin' man" -The Wailers, "Get Up, Stand Up". Seems to me that straight is a hardcore institution designed to defend the establishment from revolutionary youth.
When i began to read J. Krishnamurti a few years after straight i felt like he was speaking in a way that validated the reality of the the starry-eyed anarchist kid who had to come up against straight and do battle.
Did anyone else ever feel like straight was an institution just designed to destroy the minds of all revolutionary youth? Fuck authority. :smokin: :smokin: :smokin:
_________________
If you would have justice in this world, then begin to see that a human being is not a means to some end. People are not commodities. When human beings are just to one another government becomes obsolete and real freedom is born; SPIRITUAL ANARCHY.
-
i think the establishment fears the loss of their illusion of control. straight was the last line of defense
Not the first line of defense, and sadly, not the last.
I'm learning much here, Starry and Woof, keep goin. I'm reading and will annoy you with posts once and awhile.
-
That wuz me. :wave:
Bigot: One fanatically devoted to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and intolerant of those who differ.
Webster's
-
On 2005-06-23 17:41:00, starry-eyed pirate wrote:
Did anyone else ever feel like straight was an institution just designed to destroy the minds of all revolutionary youth? Fuck authority.
Revolutionary? No. In fact, there's a strong revolutionary aspect to the Program. I suppse it was a little more evident in The Seed. But I remember a couple of "Take over the word" raps. I always found them spooky and difficult. Found it hard to talk about the whole world being Straight, Inc. so we wouldn't have to send our kids anywhere if they needed the Program and pretend, convincingly, that that was a good thing.
Freedom and autonomy are what the Program was designed to crush.
If every cigarette you smoke takes seven minutes off your life, every game of Dungeons & Draggons you play delays the loss of your virginity by seven hours.
--Brian Warner - The Long Hard Road Out Of Hell
-
On 2005-06-23 18:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
i think the establishment fears the loss of their illusion of control. straight was the last line of defense
Not the first line of defense, and sadly, not the last.
"
Yeah ,you're right, straight was/is just one link in a long chain of defences.
It was at the same time the most subtle and the most direct form of brutality/blackmail and exploitation, designed as a last desperate bulwhark(sp?) against radically minded kids who were about to inherit their constitutional rights and potentially become a socio-political force to de-stabilize the status quo. i think the exteme lengths to which straight and its' supporters are/were willing to go to in order to maintain their illusion of power over the youth of America is indicative of the depth of their fear and insecurity of the natural flow of things. The existence of straight inc. and other programs like it only re-inforces my belief that the whole socio-political-economic system is a system of exploitation and oppression. :smokin:
-
On 2005-06-23 18:27:00, Antigen wrote:
"
On 2005-06-23 17:41:00, starry-eyed pirate wrote:
Did anyone else ever feel like straight was an institution just designed to destroy the minds of all revolutionary youth? Fuck authority.
Revolutionary? No. In fact, there's a strong revolutionary aspect to the Program. I suppse it was a little more evident in The Seed. But I remember a couple of "Take over the word" raps. I always found them spooky and difficult. Found it hard to talk about the whole world being Straight, Inc. so we wouldn't have to send our kids anywhere if they needed the Program and pretend, convincingly, that that was a good thing.
Freedom and autonomy are what the Program was designed to crush.
"
i hear what you're sayin' Antigen about the program. Straight was a radical institution. But i don't see it as revolutionary because it's absolute purpose was to maintain the existing power establishment. Or are you tryin' to tell me that straight was even more radical than i realize. i do see straight as a microcosm of the social power sructure of the world. Straight really is on the outside too. straight is the incisor teeth of the babylon vampire system. Straight was set up to isolate and hold down the strength of the youth of our generation and finally forcibly install the mental slavery- brainwash that had always failed to take in the past. i see how straight kidnapped and broke the future leaders of our society, in order to maintain and advance their own agenda of social control and exploitation. "Freedom and autonomy is what the program was designed to crush."
Authority lives in fear. PEACE. ::rainbow:: :smokin:
_________________
If you would have justice in this world, then begin to see that a human being is not a means to some end. People are not commodities. When human beings are just to one another government becomes obsolete and real freedom is born; SPIRITUAL ANARCHY.[ This Message was edited by: starry-eyed pirate on 2005-06-23 21:09 ]
-
Well, I guess I'm a little jealous over the definition of status quo. To my mind, the status quo in this country is personal soverignty. That's the law of the land. The Great Society was the revolution. And I think it's clear it was a bad idea. These brilliant bastards have pull off a hell of a scam. Their very idea of forced conformity is right out of Fabian Socialism. And yet they call themselves conservatibes. So neither faction can look to closely at them cause they're looking at themselves.
When you say revolution, you're talking about throwing off that. I get that. I just get a little pissy over the idea that restoring the Constitution (not just a good idea, it's the law) as a revolutionary idea.
Power concedes nothing without a demand. The limit of oppression is determined by the extent of the endurance of the oppressed.
--Frederick Douglas
-
Don't you know you're talking about a revolution
It sounds like a whisper
Don't you know they're talking about a revolution
It sounds like a whisper
While they're standing in the welfare lines
Crying at the doorsteps of those armies of salvation
Wasting time in unemployment lines
Sitting around waiting for a promotion
Don't you know you're talking about a revolution
It sounds like a whisper
Poor people are gonna rise up
And get their share
Poor people are gonna rise up
And take what's theirs
Don't you know you better run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run
Oh I said you better run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run
Finally the tables are starting to turn
Talking about a revolution
Finally the tables are starting to turn
Talking about a revolution oh no
Talking about a revolution oh no
While they're standing in the welfare lines
Crying at the doorsteps of those armies of salvation
Wasting time in unemployment lines
Sitting around waiting for a promotion
Don't you know you're talking about a revolution
It sounds like a whisper
And finally the tables are starting to turn
Talking about a revolution
Finally the tables are starting to turn
Talking about a revolution oh no
Talking about a revolution oh no
Talking about a revolution oh no
- Tracy Chapman, "Talkin 'Bout a Revolution"
-
On 2005-06-23 17:41:00, starry-eyed pirate wrote:
" UG, as well as Nasagardat Maharshi, Sri Ramana Maharshi, Sri H.W.L. Poonjaji,"
Woof-a-adoof, who are these people? i began to read Krishnamurti after straight when i was already like 21 or 22 or somethin' and really dug him. Buddhism too. Other ways too. But i haven't heard of these other teachers you give creedence to. Who are they?
UG Krishnamurti I found when doing a search for J Krishnamurti, I just fell across him. About the others, it might be best to think of them in a lineage. I personally see them as one in the same.
The lineage began with Ramana Maharshi who Nisargadatta Maharaj and Sri H.W.L. Poonjaji where ?students? of. Sri H.W.L. Poonjaji was the teacher of Gangaji with whom I have sat with in both Marin County California and in Crestone Colorado.
The history of these folks is immense in concept and action (or lack thereof). Like J Krishnamurti they had one message and spoke the message in thousands of languages, spoke it from as many angles, but always said the same thing.
That is?
Ask? Who am I?
Find out?Who/What I am not.
Realize?I am that...which I am not.
Abide in that which? I am.
Of course this is my own experience with this lineage. I have always found myself worthy of self investigation (ahem) easily the original question appealed to me. ?Who am I??
And so?.Hmm, I am not that which I think I am?
I can say, from my own experience, that the ONLY thing I know, with absolute certainty is that, I exist. All else is questionable at best, impermanent experience is the only experience ?I? have. The least common denominator in all of my experience is ?I? experienced and experience all that I encounter or that I miss. This ?I? (which I knew with absolute certainty knew/know exists) was a simple enough idea, and so a solitary (I don?t trust individuals that have the answer, and I am overwhelming suspicious of the followers of the same ones that have the answer?probably the same ones that had the great idea of locking up the food) I digress?and so this solitary quest began. I read all the books, I sat with Gangaji?blah blah blah blah blah O blah de blah de da, oh and hey, I completed the 365 lessons in the book, A Course in Miracles.
Point is, when ?I? got it??I? was what I got (duh) and I was ok (at peace) with that. It happened like a ripe apple falls off the tree. No amount of searching, studying, practicing would have created or prevented what is not only possible, but inevitable. The rest, well I think of it as unnecessary suffering. A rather anti-climactic conclusion, considering time/effort involved?shit. As I said earlier, it?s just my experience.
Simplicity and the merely obvious are often things I do not experience, as a whole?yet when I hear or read words that leave me with no words, no comment, beyond stunned I know I have heard a truth. It?s really the only gage I have in knowing the ?truth?. This particular lineage brought me to silence, a stillness to my core. I can be as violent, or as passive as I want to be, or as active/inactive as I wanted to be, it did not effect that stillness?and that was and remains permanent. Now I forget this all the time, really, so I check to see. I am still that which I am?I am.
There are websites and sites like our beloved FORNITS devoted to each of these folks. I don?t subscribe to the ?search? anymore. I called off the search?how could I in could conscious search for what I knew could never be lost in the first place. I don?t condemn or condone what any of them say and or don?t say?I don?t follow any ideology or individual. I have, and probably always will investigate, probably out of repetition I am not sure why other than idle curiosity. The urgency to do so lost much of its appeal. Lack of this energy/desire doesn?t negate ?I? am the one experiencing this and like any experience, it is impermanent.
The lineage as profoundly simplistic as it is , Black Elk, a Lakota Sioux elder said it very simply, ?Where east meets west, north meets south and up meets down is holy ground, the rest is sacred?
No, I don?t think you were ?singled out?, you like all of us have had the same experience. We each have our on spin on what happened, but there seems to be a general consensus there. I think you are fortunate to have read J Krishnamurti at 21-22 years old. Its always a good read once in a while. And yeah, he was able to articulate what I instinctively knew, but could not articulate. There was the same validation when I sat with Gangaji. I guess there is that need for validation, but really, it is like a fish in the gulf complaining because there is no water.
As a child with an older brother that used the term ?Question Authority? I remember thinking as he did, about the ?establishment? or ?the man? etc. Now I know the authoritarian I need to question. Shakespeare said ?to thine own self be true?, I asked who is the self I need to be true to?
[ This Message was edited by: Woof-a-Doof on 2005-06-26 10:46 ]
-
Thanks, Woof-a-doof, i've been reflecting on your words and trying to see your meanings. i would like to know more and will have to do some research. i get the thing about the fishs' complaint but what is the difference in Black Elks' mind between "sacred" and "holy" ?
When i said "singled out" i think what i really meant was like i think that i drew a lot of heat from authority(you know, squeaky wheel gets the oil 'n' all) because i recognized the disease that they wanted to give me. The disease of mental slavery. The public school system is a social control mechanism. Most threats to the establishment, from the youth, can be brainwashed out from within the nationalistic public school system. This is how even in a "free" country/society the majority of the population will not question the motives of our government and think that oppression is freedom and freedom, oppression. The school system operates under the pretext of providing the student with a practical education but in reality it is a brainwash institution designed to train the "student" to run on a wheel and generate income for the government(taxes). the public school system uses the same principles as straight, although straights' tactics are far more invasive and severe. They each rely on fear and intimidation to manipulate the minds of the youth. Straight and the public school system are working together to isolate potential political agitators. If the school system fails to intimidate the "student" sufficiently into compliance with the babylon vampire system world view and the youth still think with their own minds, and understand that those who rely on fear as a tool to manipulte and usurp the autonomy of their consciousness(i am not sure if thats really the right word)are obviously delusional. These youth who threaten the babylon vampire system with their insight, their right thought and their right action are then marked for elimination by mental breakdown-secret imprisonment in some part of America where the constitution is powerless. What a civics lesson that is !
Straight is the vice like grip of fear on the people. Fear that is created by the illusion of maya. Fear that is created by the quest for security in a world which has none to offer. Authority fears me because it knows i can see it as it really is: a perversion of justice born of fear and insecurity.
Authority is afraid i will tell the world what i see, what i know. Authority oppresses me because it knows who i am and i know that all their threats are hollow and all their power is a mirage.
i don't know...but i feel like i was isolated out and marked for a special brand of persecution by the system. i think that's more like what i meant by "singled out" Maybe it don't really matter even.
Woof-a-doof, what do you mean by "sat with Gangaji", are you talking about some kind of meditation or what. i would like to know more.
-starry-eyed. :skull:
_________________
If you would have justice in this world, then begin to see that a human being is not a means to some end. People are not commodities. When human beings are just to one another government becomes obsolete and real freedom is born; SPIRITUAL ANARCHY.
-
Starry-eyed Pirate---
I am not able to tell you ?the difference in Black Elk?s mind between ?sacred? and ?holy??. I would only be able to talk about how I took the words first time I heard them and how I continue to hear them today?tween my own two ears.
?Where east meets west, north meets south and up meets down is holy ground? ---
The term ?holy ground? struck me at the end of that sentence with a great sense of, ?I KNEW THAT?. But I trivialized that intuitive hunch (for lack of a better word) by thinking, ?No, there is more to it than that!? Yet each time my mind went to the absoluteness of that realization, one that I was always ?told? was a bad thing?you think you?re the center of the universe or that I thought that everything revolved around me.
Back in the day?ahem?I was told in my environment that is was selfish and narcissistic to think this way. But it was more than a thought system; I could not shake the fact that my eyes were designed to look outward and everything I saw was indeed?revolving or rather unfolding around me. I was direct center of all my experience, that fact was permanent. And so, the word ?Holy? as I took/take it points to that which is permanent.
?The rest is sacred.?---
I look all that is around me as experience, I look beyond my experience as observation. These things are impermanent and as I think I said before, are of entertainment value. They can be debated, discussed, ignored, fought for or against, liked or disliked. Some opinion can be drawn against everything outside of the absolute knowledge that I exist. The only meanings these things have are the ones I attach to them. And these ?meanings? can vary as well?even the ?meanings? I attach, are impermanent.
Other than that, I can only offer my spin on the words, I am not sure (as I said earlier) what Black Elk meant. And since I do not know the exact intent of the words, I am left to think on the words literally. What is the harm in trying to think along those lines? The question is would I be willing to think along those lines? And the answer to that is?Not always.
Your sentence that said; ?The disease of mental slavery.? caught my eye and invoked an immediate thought process which ended in the image in my head of a patient in a white hospital gown suffering from the idea of being a slave to his own thoughts. Would make for a piece of art, not that it would be a big seller, but art it would be.
??Maybe it don't really matter even.?
Ideals, like anything else have only the meaning attached to them. I forget who introduced me to an observation of the IFD Cycle. IFD an acronym, Idealism, Frustration, Demoralization. First there is an attachment made to an ideal and that ideal is strived for. Because of its lofty nature, success is impossible and so frustration soon sets in. After prolonged frustration demoralization festers until we say ?FUCK IT??.But it is an IDEAL, and because of the very definition applied to the ideal, it must be achieved. And so the second revolution of the cycle begins.
The nature of the IFD Cycle is the perfect mind fuck and works every time?without fail. Once engaged in the cycle the results are guaranteed. The question them becomes simple, would I rather be right, or at peace? It?s ironic to me that I am unable (seldom if ever) to always have both simultaneously.
??Woof-a-doof, what do you mean by "sat with Gangaji", are you talking about some kind of meditation or what.?
I traveled from Clearwater Florida to Crestone Colorado and Marin County (Sausalito specifically) California and sat in her audience. I listened to her and spoke with her. I also met her husband Eli. Yeah, there was a time for meditations but those times were by my own initiative. Gangaji never as I recall endorsed or spoke poorly of meditation. She does talk about ?mindfulness? or ?keeping vigil?. These two actions/inactions really say the same thing and a lot less energy is used compared to many many many meditation methods. ?Keeping vigil??simply watch, and where is the effort to watch? Well, ya gotta see first. Where is the effort in seeing and watching what you see?
The last I ?sat with Gangaji? I understood that she was a road sign of sorts and merely pointed in a direction. She like her teacher, like Krishnamurti, like Nisargadatta, like Ramana Maharshi wanted no following. This is also something I find ironic, that they have following, yet emphasis is on Self-Inquiry. Then I ask myself why I made the effort to sit with her? The importance I gave it at the time was one of validation. In looking back, I question the need for such validation. A vision that comes to mind is one of a droplet of water facing the enormity of the oceans. The droplet and the oceans are of the same make up: water. Yet the droplet glistens in fear as it approaches the ocean, no longer will it be special, no longer will it be apart from, but a part of?.the ocean. And in the end, it simply is the ocean.
In Peace
-
maybe,we're all like thinkin' we're like drops of water and we're wishin' we could be the ocean, yet bein' afraid of the ocean and all the while we are the ocean. Are we afraid of the ocean because we are confused and see only the illusion? To know ourselves is to see the world as it is by recognizing the projections of our own fears onto the world. Even a single drop of water is the ocean. in this way i can hold the ocean in my hand. In this way i hold a revolution in my hand. Right on, Woof-a-Doof.
in peace[ This Message was edited by: starry-eyed pirate on 2005-07-05 14:57 ]