Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: cleveland on June 06, 2005, 05:18:00 PM
-
OK, MGG dared me to post on this topic...so I will.
Physical contact/sexuality...
Guys and girls strictly segragated...Art made sly sexual jokes (Evie being 'healthy' - large breasted. Seed kids being celibates - whoops, celebrants! etc.) Anyway, we were all sexually pent up. I think guys to some extent and probably girls even more so got some of their sexual energy released thru same sex contact. Not sex, but touching and cuddling if you were a girl, and rough-housing if you were a guy. I wasn't very sophisticated at 19 but I knew some people were gay, even though I hadn't had a lot of knowing contact (any gay kid at my high school would take pains to hide it, except for one or two flamboyant kids who I didn't know at all well, and kind of embarrased me) but I knew there were gay kids at the Seed but it appeared that they were trying to be 'straight' sexually too. It must have been weird. But the straight kids were banned from all contact with the opp. sex except for: A. high status kids, who could date and marry with Art's permission and B. football. Ooh, football! The girls wore skimpy little bikinis which they made themselves. It was torture to see them, and play on the line against them. High status seed kids had other opportunities to hang out with the opp. sex, esp. if you were on staff or jr. staff. For the rest of us: saying 'hi' to the girl who served the warm coollaid and frozen PBJ sandwiches; once in a great while helping some girl carry something in or out of her car or maybe apt.
Masterbation - not supposed to do it, really. But...whoopsie.
And you were supposed to confess 'everything.' I found this to be a horror for me. Especially because you weren't supposed to have your head in the gutter...and because I did...
So yeah, girls and guys did some same sex touching/cuddling/hugging/kissing even, I remember...but no contact with the opp. sex. Lots of guilt, shame, confusion...
Although I have to say that being able to hug another guy w/o shame was a definite plus for me - maybe helped me be less homophobic.
There you go, MGG.
-
Your not suposed to masturbate?
NOW YOU TELL ME!
:grin:
Serious, it must have been torture for you long timers. I know I hit puberty while in the seed and that wasn't any fun...but years and years of this sexual isolation?
Holy shit, I don't envy you guys at all.
-
Good ole conservative upbringing!
Pent them up, but keep them with the same sex, then make gay marriage illegal. The plans of true believers for our lives may well be better than our own when judged against some abstract official standard, but to deny people their personal struggles is to render existence absurd.
John Taylor Gatto
-
Exactly!
-
I'm not positive about this...but I think I recall Art making jokes about 'fags' on a regular basis. This was the mid 70's. I understand he may have changed his views on the issue though. For some reason I got the impression that the seed was supposed to make gay people straight. A few years after I got off my program a friend of my father's asked me about sending his son to the seed. His son used drugs and was openly gay. The guy wanted to know if the seed could help him. I assured him that it would make his son 'straight' in every sense of the word. Looking back, I'm not sure where I got this idea. Maybe the fag jokes or maybe the general emphasis on traditional sex roles or maybe some other factor.
Just after I became an oldcomer one of our newcomers confessed that he'd had a homosexual experience. He was wracked with guilt and pain over this due to the seed's emphasis on confession. We were at a loss as to how to respond to this confession and tried to assure him that it didn't mean he was homosexual.
The prohibition against masturbation was especially sad as this tended to make everyone that engaged in this act feel as if they were screwed-up or full of shit, etc. Someone mentioned Art's catholic background in connection with this rule. I tend to agree. The prohibition resulted in most of us carrying around chronic guilt for a perfectly normal, healthy activity. Much like the guilt I felt for years for drinking an occasional beer or glass of wine.
-
I see from these posts and others that it was not just the emotional imprisonment - the whole "follow the rules" or be stood up routine that screwed me up.
It seems to me that long timers and people who tried to stay true to the Seed's philosophy without maintinaing direct involvement with the program after graduating had many of the same expereiences. Lots of confusion over sexulaity -almost forced homosexuality as a means of meeting our human needs.
Is this kind of sexual segregation still happening to kids in current programs ? Or are we the lucky ones who "benefitted" from these glorious experiments of 30 years ago?
When you put the sexual issue in the mix, it's pretty hard to deny that The Seed and it's successor program Straight, were anything but cults. There was no free will excerised by any Seedlings, no matter how loudly they protest and claim it was a good place. If there had been exercises of free will, we could have come and gone as we pleased, gone to the bathroom when we needed to, been able to wear the clothes we wanted to wear, have the friends we wanted to have, flirt with members of the opposite sex and, GOD FORBID sneak a kiss. Obvioulsy, that behavior never occurred when I was at the SR 84 COMPOUND.
Geeze, a few months ago I was just trying to wrap my head around the whole idea that my folks were duped and the program was abusive. Now I see even more clearly how the programming has effected me on such an intimate level.
I suspect those folks (Art, staffers, etc.) have absolutely no remorse for what they did - if they even know what it was they did. But I would guess their sex lives have been pretty twisted, for lack of a better word.
I take solace in the fact that a person cannot be an abuser and be unaffected by the acts they perpetrated on their victims.[ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-06-07 12:18 ][ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-06-07 12:19 ]
-
It doesn't surprise me that some of those that intimately built their lives around this lie still believe in it.
But when these stories are freely told, they are creepy beyond belief to people who weren't subjected to this warped childhood.
That is one barometer for me..when "normal" people cannot even believe the stories because they are so outrageous.
Don't you find if you tell someone out of the loop that they give you that lopsided look like you are exaggerating are lying?
-
I enrolled in college at age 26 after 7 completely celibate Seed years (or almost completely! The ban on masterbation wasn't always worth living up to). Anyway, I remember how I felt in the presence of a woman, on a casual 'date' - my heart pounding, excited, scared, ashamed...
No wonder I 'fell in love' with the first woman who seemed vaguely interested. I remember trying to explain to her what I had been doing for the past 7 years, which seemed like forever then...
"Um well, I used to belong to this sort of religious group, but kinda more like AA...anyway, we weren't supposed to have sex or anything like that on our program...which sort of never ended. It was kind of a cult but we could 'leave' whenever we wanted to, but if we did, it was a betrayal and personal failure and proved that you were fucked up...so no one ever wanted to leave...uh yeah, it was weird...oh no, I'M not weird, the program was..." Um, hello, call me?
I tell you, it was a conversation stopper...
-
Stripe, I've often read reference to strict gender segregation and other funny mind games from vets of various programs. I think all of the Synanon based ones carry on that method.
The internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.
--John Gilmour
-
after seven years, I would probably just whipped it out, begged and cried.
:grin:
-
Wow dude, way more complicated than that...
But to each his own!
-
twas only a joke my man!
-
What! No joking in this group!
-
Damn: Its really hard to type with my hairy palms. :rofl:
-
On 2005-06-07 13:30:00, cleveland wrote:
Anyway, I remember how I felt in the presence of a woman, on a casual 'date' - my heart pounding, excited, scared, ashamed...
Well...duh, that's kind of the process ain't it? I'm 50 and I still experience those feelings sometimes on a 'casual' date (sans the scared and ashamed)
-
On 2005-06-07 15:41:00, GregFL wrote:
"after seven years, I would probably just whipped it out, begged and cried.
No doubt!!!
NO DOUBT for sure!! I guess us gals didn't hear this rap...NEVER did we talk about 'self gratification'. Probably because we were smart enough to figure out when we were alone...we were ALONE, eh? Just had to abstain from the opposite sex (or, if so inclined 'same' gender) Big deal! Move on...
-
OK, Seedlings! What if Art was correct - what if those arranged marriages are more durable than many of our ex-seedlings are!
Discuss!
(I'm just trying to provoke discussion - you ex-seedlings are starting to get boring. What - are you going to force me to go read Straight postings!?!)
(Side note: I understand that many of those Seed marriages endure...)
-
Geez, one would think in this day and age, even if folks don't believe that The Seed or Straight were as bad as the programs really were that some reflection on the intiate life (both physical and emotional) would give a clue as to how warped the programs made people.
Present day: Aren't the spritualists and the psychologists and psychiatrists and Dr. Phils out there willing to acknowledge that this kind of programming results in some very confused people?
When I think about people I knew from the program - it's an either/or classification - at least until there is some kind of acknowledgment of what was done to them.
Either the person cannot stand to be alone/single and must always have a squeeze (no matter how bad it is) or the person is just the just the opposite, hell-bent on keeping every kind of emotional and physical intimacy at bay by any means necessary.
[ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-06-09 11:27 ]
-
On 2005-06-09 06:47:00, cleveland wrote:
"OK, Seedlings! What if Art was correct - what if those arranged marriages are more durable than many of our ex-seedlings are!
Side note: I understand that many of those Seed marriages endure...)"
OK - what about the notion of free will?
If you look around the world, there are many cultures where arranged marriage is the norm, and when those marriages take place, you are right - they most often succeed.
But arranged marriages by (f)Art were not a cultural phenomena here in South Florida or in St. Pete or in Ohio. Contrary to what the leaders wanted to belive, they were not a guiding cultural force. This was, again, mind control in its purest form. Hook you up with someone for life so that you can never ever have a moment to reflect? Perhaps the only reason why a marriage like that might last is because the partners are still under the influence.
-
Depends on how you define success, Cleveland. Are they happy together? Kids happy? Is the family a part of their community? Or do they just stay together because of a taboo on divorce?
sunday school: A prison in which children do penance for the evil conscience of their parents.
--H. L. Mencken, American publisher
-
Ginger,
We're unlikely to know, unless someone chooses to post their experiences here. I'm just trying to provoke discussion!
My personal experience was that the lack of an intimate relationship for many years left me relatively unequiped to jump into it successfully. After a false start or two, I consider myself lucky.
-
From the link:
"The Moonies claim that the divorce rate among their arranged marriages is 10%. This compares favourably with America and most European nations but at what price?
Daniel O'Connell is a professor of Religious Psychology and he believes the Moonies' approach to marriage risks missing the central message of the marriage contract. He says, "I find it in fact a violation of the very nature of the marriage bond, which is a free contract between two parties. And it is the freedom of that contract which constitutes a very essential part of the bond."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_repo ... /35377.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/1997/unification_church/35377.stm)
-
On 2005-06-06 14:18:00, cleveland wrote:
"OK, MGG dared me to post on this topic...so I will.
Physical contact/sexuality...
Guys and girls strictly segragated...Art made sly sexual jokes (Evie being 'healthy' - large breasted. Seed kids being celibates - whoops, celebrants! etc.) Anyway, we were all sexually pent up. I think guys to some extent and probably girls even more so got some of their sexual energy released thru same sex contact. Not sex, but touching and cuddling if you were a girl, and rough-housing if you were a guy. I wasn't very sophisticated at 19 but I knew some people were gay, even though I hadn't had a lot of knowing contact (any gay kid at my high school would take pains to hide it, except for one or two flamboyant kids who I didn't know at all well, and kind of embarrased me) but I knew there were gay kids at the Seed but it appeared that they were trying to be 'straight' sexually too. It must have been weird. But the straight kids were banned from all contact with the opp. sex except for: A. high status kids, who could date and marry with Art's permission and B. football. Ooh, football! The girls wore skimpy little bikinis which they made themselves. It was torture to see them, and play on the line against them. High status seed kids had other opportunities to hang out with the opp. sex, esp. if you were on staff or jr. staff. For the rest of us: saying 'hi' to the girl who served the warm coollaid and frozen PBJ sandwiches; once in a great while helping some girl carry something in or out of her car or maybe apt.
Masterbation - not supposed to do it, really. But...whoopsie.
And you were supposed to confess 'everything.' I found this to be a horror for me. Especially because you weren't supposed to have your head in the gutter...and because I did...
So yeah, girls and guys did some same sex touching/cuddling/hugging/kissing even, I remember...but no contact with the opp. sex. Lots of guilt, shame, confusion...
Although I have to say that being able to hug another guy w/o shame was a definite plus for me - maybe helped me be less homophobic.
There you go, MGG. "
Just to balance things out a bit when I was on 3rd ave at 9 there was no prohibition against hugging the between girls/guys and i don't remember any prohibition on boy / girl relationships once you were an old comer. To be honest I don't exactly remember what the rules were by the time I went to St Rd 84 but I don't remember it being quite as restrictive as what you guys are posting. At nine there was often kisses fo me from the girls. maybe I was excluded because they thought I was too young to worry about. Little did they know. I think those kisses were what made my experience the first time positive as much as anything else. Just being a cute kid made for alot of attention that i needed. Wish it was still that easy.:wink:
-
On 2005-12-03 09:09:00, landyh wrote:
"
On 2005-06-06 14:18:00, cleveland wrote:
"OK, MGG dared me to post on this topic...so I will.
Physical contact/sexuality...
Guys and girls strictly segragated...Art made sly sexual jokes (Evie being 'healthy' - large breasted. Seed kids being celibates - whoops, celebrants! etc.) Anyway, we were all sexually pent up. I think guys to some extent and probably girls even more so got some of their sexual energy released thru same sex contact. Not sex, but touching and cuddling if you were a girl, and rough-housing if you were a guy. I wasn't very sophisticated at 19 but I knew some people were gay, even though I hadn't had a lot of knowing contact (any gay kid at my high school would take pains to hide it, except for one or two flamboyant kids who I didn't know at all well, and kind of embarrased me) but I knew there were gay kids at the Seed but it appeared that they were trying to be 'straight' sexually too. It must have been weird. But the straight kids were banned from all contact with the opp. sex except for: A. high status kids, who could date and marry with Art's permission and B. football. Ooh, football! The girls wore skimpy little bikinis which they made themselves. It was torture to see them, and play on the line against them. High status seed kids had other opportunities to hang out with the opp. sex, esp. if you were on staff or jr. staff. For the rest of us: saying 'hi' to the girl who served the warm coollaid and frozen PBJ sandwiches; once in a great while helping some girl carry something in or out of her car or maybe apt.
Masterbation - not supposed to do it, really. But...whoopsie.
And you were supposed to confess 'everything.' I found this to be a horror for me. Especially because you weren't supposed to have your head in the gutter...and because I did...
So yeah, girls and guys did some same sex touching/cuddling/hugging/kissing even, I remember...but no contact with the opp. sex. Lots of guilt, shame, confusion...
Although I have to say that being able to hug another guy w/o shame was a definite plus for me - maybe helped me be less homophobic.
There you go, MGG. "
Just to balance things out a bit when I was on 3rd ave at 9 there was no prohibition against hugging the between girls/guys and i don't remember any prohibition on boy / girl relationships once you were an old comer. To be honest I don't exactly remember what the rules were by the time I went to St Rd 84 but I don't remember it being quite as restrictive as what you guys are posting. At nine there was often kisses fo me from the girls. maybe I was excluded because they thought I was too young to worry about. Little did they know. I think those kisses were what made my experience the first time positive as much as anything else. Just being a cute kid made for alot of attention that i needed. Wish it was still that easy.:wink:"
In st pete, you couldn't express ANY interest in the opposite sex or you were in for some serious punishment. Even LOOKING at the other side of the isle could get you lambasted and come down on.
Lamby, could it be that when you were 9 you were treated with special care, and that is one reason all those memories are so positive?
Hell, I can't hardly remember anything that happened to me when I was 9, at least not in any way other than a general memory.
-
On 2005-12-03 09:23:00, GregFL wrote:
"
On 2005-12-03 09:09:00, landyh wrote:
"
On 2005-06-06 14:18:00, cleveland wrote:
"OK, MGG dared me to post on this topic...so I will.
Physical contact/sexuality...
Guys and girls strictly segragated...Art made sly sexual jokes (Evie being 'healthy' - large breasted. Seed kids being celibates - whoops, celebrants! etc.) Anyway, we were all sexually pent up. I think guys to some extent and probably girls even more so got some of their sexual energy released thru same sex contact. Not sex, but touching and cuddling if you were a girl, and rough-housing if you were a guy. I wasn't very sophisticated at 19 but I knew some people were gay, even though I hadn't had a lot of knowing contact (any gay kid at my high school would take pains to hide it, except for one or two flamboyant kids who I didn't know at all well, and kind of embarrased me) but I knew there were gay kids at the Seed but it appeared that they were trying to be 'straight' sexually too. It must have been weird. But the straight kids were banned from all contact with the opp. sex except for: A. high status kids, who could date and marry with Art's permission and B. football. Ooh, football! The girls wore skimpy little bikinis which they made themselves. It was torture to see them, and play on the line against them. High status seed kids had other opportunities to hang out with the opp. sex, esp. if you were on staff or jr. staff. For the rest of us: saying 'hi' to the girl who served the warm coollaid and frozen PBJ sandwiches; once in a great while helping some girl carry something in or out of her car or maybe apt.
Masterbation - not supposed to do it, really. But...whoopsie.
And you were supposed to confess 'everything.' I found this to be a horror for me. Especially because you weren't supposed to have your head in the gutter...and because I did...
So yeah, girls and guys did some same sex touching/cuddling/hugging/kissing even, I remember...but no contact with the opp. sex. Lots of guilt, shame, confusion...
Although I have to say that being able to hug another guy w/o shame was a definite plus for me - maybe helped me be less homophobic.
There you go, MGG. "
Just to balance things out a bit when I was on 3rd ave at 9 there was no prohibition against hugging the between girls/guys and i don't remember any prohibition on boy / girl relationships once you were an old comer. To be honest I don't exactly remember what the rules were by the time I went to St Rd 84 but I don't remember it being quite as restrictive as what you guys are posting. At nine there was often kisses fo me from the girls. maybe I was excluded because they thought I was too young to worry about. Little did they know. I think those kisses were what made my experience the first time positive as much as anything else. Just being a cute kid made for alot of attention that i needed. Wish it was still that easy.:wink:"
In st pete, you couldn't express ANY interest in the opposite sex or you were in for some serious punishment. Even LOOKING at the other side of the isle could get you lambasted and come down on.
Lamby, could it be that when you were 9 you were treated with special care, and that is one reason all those memories are so positive?
Hell, I can't hardly remember anything that happened to me when I was 9, at least not in any way other than a general memory.
"
I have no doubt that my age was a factor in that first experience. Remember not only was I young but I was the only person anywhere close to my age . So even my personal experience with Art in which he was caring even gentle with me were surely at least in part due to my age.
-
I recall all of the taboos, then the talent show!! As mentioned in another thread, "Holy Shit now what do I think?"
Although I must have been sufficiently out of the gutter to be allowed to be able to be around the girls apartments while working on their cars, unsupervised. Which was a mixed blessing, back to the gutter!
The whole "condom in the back of Arts car" event just seemed to twist the knife.
The football games were disturbing to me on several levels - that could probably be a thread to itself, but I managed to draw the "watch the house" duty in my later days, which probably was best for all concerned.
I spent some time talking to a seed girl at work and that got back to me via the staff in a not pleasant way, reinforcing the taboo. I left before the repercussions of that could fully manifest;
On the outside, I was pretty clueless how to deal with the whole dating thing, sex etc. made a few bad choices, I wasn't in high school any more. I got involved with a rape survivor, who had a lot of fear and other issues - underneath it all a sweetheart, which gave me another set of issues to deal with (guilt for being male).
Then I made the whole thing worse by running off to college at 25. I got over the gutter/guilt connection pretty soon therafter - I also worked with a rape survivor group at college.
I met my wife at a beer and sandwich place in school
When I was invited to a reunion/dinner/talent show/open meeting event years later (I forget the whole title of the thing) it seemed that half the group was married - (I had my soon to be wife with me - an outsider, I still don't know how that happened). That was pretty surreal!
I left before the rash of marriages, I guess one had happend before that, but it seemed a lone data point.
it seems I am rambling so I will quit and post this.
JG
-
"The whole "condom in the back of Arts car" event just seemed to twist the knife"
Ok, What did I miss?
You know....if the Seed was in Utah, who knows how many "wives" the old bastard would have.
-
:nworthy: :nworthy: :rofl:
http://fornits.com/quotes.php?rno=772 (http://fornits.com/quotes.php?rno=772)
Ok, that spells it! Sometime before or immediately following the holy daze, I have to make it simpler and more obvious how to submit quotes. It's just not fair losing out on those gems ya'll must see every day. Hassle me if you want it and I don't get it done, please.Clancy's Law: The perceived role of governments is to deploy ever increasing resources to the attainment of ever diminishing end results.
--Home Page (http://ozinfo.com/)
-
Sorry, I am technically challenged.
-
No, no. It's not that. There is no nifty provision for ppl to submit quotes, except to email me. I'll fix that.
If every cigarette you smoke takes seven minutes off your life, every game of Dungeons & Draggons you play delays the loss of your virginity by seven hours.
--Brian Warner - The Long Hard Road Out Of Hell