Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: pieper on May 29, 2005, 09:29:00 AM
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Hello,
I have a 15 y/o daughter who's heading in all the wrong directions. You know the drill. I do NOT want a lock-down experience... she doesn't require any such "treatment". What I am looking for however is a 4 week summer program that's safe, nuturing, and reputable. Preferably away from home (NY). A chance for her to re-think her choices, formulate a sense of self (which she is sorely lacking... she blindly follows, normally to the brink of the slaughterhouse), give her sisters a respite from the stealing, lies, "princess" demands and distance from some very troublesome "friends".
I'm not wealthy. I'm not looking to ship my troubles out of sight. The only thing I've found thus far is a school in Sedona, AZ called Oak Creek Ranch School. Arizona is acceptable to me as my father lives in Tucson. I've not found any references to this school here, but could well have missed any. I've received 2 recommendations from friends - one is NYMA upstate, NY by a friend who had her son "abducted" and sent there last year with NO positive results (out). The other from my eldests' friend who attended (gasp) Ivy Ridge Academy. Methinks that option's out, too.
I've sure learned ALOT by reading these fora over the past week or so. Whoa. Hoping someone has some positive information and/or suggestions.
TIA,
pieper
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hey pieper, i sure don't know your family scene. sounds bad with all the "lies, stealing" etc.
or, it sounds pretty damn normal... :smile: sorry, my siblings and i were always accusing each other of stealing... we just had poor "boundaries" :smile: i'm sure you will work it out. first, do no harm...
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fka,
Thanks for your response. The "princess" commentary is what her siblings and friends call her. She thinks she's too good to do that which most people know needs to be done, ie- walk the dog, help in the garden, speak respectfully to adults, vacuum, be grateful for that which she has, etc. Compounding the whole situation is the fact that she's an identical twin, the sort rarely heard about - mirror imaged. Which leads to unending bickering, jealousy, etc. Sibling rivalry to the Nth degree. But I'm used to that, and don't sweat it. I just try to be fair, consistent and available to mediate when needed.
Last summer this twin opted to spend with her father and step-mother. BIG mistake. The "princess" syndrome worsened, and the other twin felt VERY resentful for being left home to do the right things... chores, family interaction, be responsible and accountable to the rules of our family. A "fun" summer camp would serve to only exacerbate this problem. A summer program that involved physical activity, structure and accountability would not cause more angst. BTW... her stealing is from me, her father/step-mother, and Lordknows who else. Not her twin, who doesn't have much TO steal. :smile: Her lying OTOH is nearing pathological.
Unfortunately, the problematic twin has failed her freshman year in high school, and therefore ineligible to work (legally). She believes she's "too good" to volunteer, although I continue to look for volunteer opportunities that might interest her. :sigh: She's bright, a good athlete, but her choices this academic year have minimized ALL of that. Tough to remain a good athlete when you're smoking 'n toking, and your grades preclude team school sports. Her grades suck due to incessant cutting and sitting in class writing notes to these "friends" (who happen to be 2nd year freshmen with little interest in avoiding third-year freshman status!) and sleeping every moment she can at home to avoid studying, etc.
Yes... I know ALL of this is in the realm of "normal". And I am trying to avoid harm, while at the same time salvage the other two daughters. And yes... I've worked with the school weekly to try to defeat these problems, but thanks to being in NYC, there's a serious overcrowding problem in the schools. The school can only move her classes, seats, schedule so many times. They don't have the classes available to her in summerschool to make up the failures, which really sucks.
Thanks again for your feedback. It's appreciated!
-pieper
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Have you tried professional counseling? Perhaps that could strengthen your relationship with her. Maybe after a few sessions the two of you could take a short, fun vacation together, someplace she helps chose. I know this may sound pretty simplistic, but I raised a family of girls, all close in age, and sometimes it's a matter of setting aside time to be with each of them one on one. I clearly remember how impossible they could be (the bickering, competing for attention, etc), but in the long run, the rewards were well worth the frustration. Regardless of their station in life, at heart, most teen girls see themselves as princesses, and if not carried to extremes, this is not always a bad thing. Mine are all grown now, and have their own "princesses" to deal with. Most of them are doing a fine job of parenting...the one who is not, sent her child to a long term residential program, hence, my interest in this forum. From what I have learned, and what I know instinctively, sending your child away to live with strangers, cutting off communication with family, friends and normal society, only serves to stunt the growth process. In spite of the claims of these programs, no child can learn to make good choices when the option to chose is taken away. In the vast majority of programs, the only choice is between doing what you are told or being punished, ridiculed or otherwise ostrasized. Clearly this teaches nothing positive, unless of course you want a herd of sheep instead of a family.
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Hrms. It looks to me, and I don't know your family, like the other twin may be playing you off a bit by being the "good twin" and using that as leverage to get you to take her side. Which may be getting you caught in a spiral with the "bad twin" where she thinks you always take the other one's side and will *no matter what* she does.
The "bad twin" may have given up on trying to please you because she thinks it's no use, and the "princess" act may be a front to hide a very hurt and rejected-feeling girl inside. Who probably *also* thinks she's "bad."
How could spending a summer with the other parent and step-parent not be "doing the right things"?
That's a big red flag for me, because the way your ex and his wife run their home is *different* not wrong, even though it's not the way you do things. And your ex and his wife are family, to your girls.
You really need to try hard not to let your natural gripes with your ex and dislikes of the way their family does things carry over into value judgements about your household rules as more worthy and theirs as less worthy. That idea that their rules aren't just different but are not "doing the right thing," coming from you, planted the seed for a lot of the resentments. Sorry, but well, it kind of had to.
Okay, so you don't like the way your ex parents and you point to some of the things you disagree with that he does as having bad results. Honestly, couldn't he legitimately make the same complaints about some of the ways *you* parent? Since you're obviously both having struggles with parenting right now?
That's what I mean by "different" instead of bad or worse. Some of the things he does you may rightly identify as parenting mistakes that have results neither of you like in your girls. He probably also has a laundry list of your parenting faults, and he's probably rightly identifying some of your parenting mistakes in some results with your kids, too.
All we parents are winging it. If a parent isn't abusive or neglectful and is doing the level best they can, then chances are overwhelming that their parenting style and the rules of their house are just different and aren't really better or worse *overall*.
I was the "good" child, and the "good" kid in school, and I traded on it. Sometimes without really realizing I was. When I did realize I was I thought I was entitled to trade on it because I was so good and the other kid was so bad.
I don't think your "good" twin means to be trading on being the good one, but it sounds, big time, like she is.
Part of my Mom Fu on this would be to talk to the ex and arrange that you could make the offer to the "good" twin to spend this summer with them.
Then tell the "good" twin that her resentments of last summer stop right now, either way. Either she goes and *she* has a chance to enjoy a break and experience a differently run household if it's so wonderful *or* she realizes that *she* has the living space she wants anyway and she lets go and gets over it.
See, you're seeing it a problem with just one twin. It's not. It's a problem with both twins.
In dysfunctional families, when you get one person in treatment, usually you've got someone like your twin who gets brought into treatment as "the problem" and the therapist privately calls that person "the *identified* patient."
The reason is that your difficult twin's dysfunctions as the problem child is probably a role in your family drama that pull everyone else together and holds mom and ex-husband talking to each other because they have to coordinate care of "the bad one," and the "good" twin is the hero that keeps the family from being a total failure, etc. It's entirely possible that this "bad" twin is being bad, without realizing why, because it gets her the payoff of holding her family closer together trying to take care of her and keeps them from tearing the family apart on the rocks of their *other* problems that they can ignore while she's so "bad."
What other problems in other family relationships start coming to the surface when she slacks up on her responsibility to be "the bad one"? Who quits getting distracted from what? What other directions do the people who pull together to take care of her start going off in?
Even if your "bad" twin is totally non-cooperative with therapy, she will get better if you reduce and remove the need for her to play this role.
Get the *rest* of the family in therapy and start focusing on your problems with each other.
You obviously still have a lot of resentments of and with your ex-husband. You have to get past those and get at least neutrally friendly with each other---genuinely, all the way down to the bone, all the way past your leftover bad feelings. And that's hard. But right now your "bad" twin is getting the payoff of pulling you two into communicating and cooperating to deal with her---that's one payoff she's *clearly* getting right off the bat. Whether you're putting your differences aside, or fighting like cats and dogs, you're interacting more over *her*.
Which is why you aren't going to see any let-up in her bad behavior. It's being rewarded with something she wants very badly---even if she doesn't know it.
Your very good twin and your very bad twin are mirrored in more ways than one---they're two sides of the same dysfunctional family system response.
Neither of them are better or worse than the other---they're just playing out the roles they've been dealt.
The only way you can get them to stop is to mend the relationships between and among the adults.
You and your ex have to each be able to genuinely accept the other's household as different, not bad. You have to *not* have deep-seated undealt with resentments anymore.
Hard? Sure. But aren't you asking your daughter to do something hard?
Until you fix the feelings between and among the adults to something healthy, nothing your daughter does (except cutting off contact with *all* of you and starting over) will be able to let her stop being the "bad" twin.
So you don't need her cooperation in therapy. It's not about her. You need to quit allowing/needing her to be a distraction from the problems among the adults and fix the adults. First.
Timoclea
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Where do I get off saying all this when I know so little about your family?
I see the symptoms: That the family members have roles reminiscent of dysfunctional family systems in general; that there is a divorce; that the adults have value judgements about the household runnings of the "others"; that some of the stealing is from the other adults and since the problems are both places you are forced to coordinate by the problems of "problem child"; that you *do* identify her as the patient to the exclusion of seeing any other problems in the system--the role is *working*--it's serving its function.
Could I be wrong because I don't know you?
Sure. But you're showing all the symptoms of an entire dysfunctional family, and *if* you are, trying to "fix" your problem daughter is a doomed effort before it even begins. If you *did* somehow manage to fix her (unlikely), she'd take on the role of the "hero" child and one of the *other* kids would go off the deep end as the "bad" one, or get terribly sick, or some other thing that required the coordinated time and attention of the adults.
And if you are, it won't get better on its own---the kids won't grow up and move out and get functional lives---everybody will stay around being dysfunctional, just switching roles in the drama now and again and the kids will *become* the next generation of dysfunctional adults and marry other dysfunctional adults.
Go to a therapist yourself, pick a very good one that handles family therapy in the context of family systems. Deal with, in therapy, your leftover feelings about your ex, and learn more positive ways of dealing with the other adults.
You don't say if you're remarried, but if you are, you want to get your husband in there, too, because he's part of the dynamic (if he exists).
If you start interacting with the other adults in healthier ways, by not feeding the cycle of resentments among the adults, you will improve the whole cycle somewhat all on your own. But if you're married, getting your husband to not judge and be resentful of or feel negative about the other set of parents is absolutely crucial. And you can't do it by just suppressing however you feel. You have to pull it all out in the open in therapy and get to where you can really believe, down to your bones, that there is more than one right way to do things. Some things your other set of adults are doing may be bad---but you have to get really good at telling the difference between really unequivocally bad and just different.
There is such a thing as good parenting and bad parenting, there is a better and a worse, but *most* of the things we identify that way aren't really good or bad or better or worse---they're just different preferences.
I'm *not* saying there's no right or wrong or good or bad. I'm saying we add a lot of extra stuff to those categories that really doesn't go there.
You need a good therapist's expert second opinion about exactly which stuff if right or wrong or good or bad, and which stuff is just different.
The stuff that really is right or wrong you *have* to decide how to deal with on a case by case basis. The stuff that's just different, you have to learn to let go of.
It's a very complicated question and you're too emotionally close to it to do it on your own---we all are, when a domestic situation gets fubarred like this.
What the therapist is for is to be a neutral, sensible, third party who can help you sort out what's what so you can put it in the right category to deal with it in a healthy way.
The more of that you sort out, the less "bad" your more troubling daughter will be---because when she lets up on being "bad," her family doesn't fall apart and quit communicating.
Once your "right, wrong, different, better, worse" categories of differences with your ex and other adults in your life are sorted out, when you are *only* making an issue of the right and wrong things, very carefully picking your battles on the better and worse things, and leaving the merely different things absolutely alone----the other adults will become, gradually, more likely to listen to you about the right and wrong things and tensions will start to lessen up.
One of the "warnings" therapists always give in training new therapists to deal with dysfunctional family systems and in teaching people how to deal with problems in their families is to look *very* closely at anyone on a pedestal. Usually their hidden flaws play an important part in maintaining the dysfunctions in the system.
So don't make the mistake of marking off your "good" people---whether that's your daughter, or your spouse, or you---as not having problems, or it may come as a shock to find out how much you've got to deal with.
Some of this that I've just said will sound to some of the Program survivors like Program Seminar Babble, because the Programs have borrowed a lot of the language of genuine therapy while neglecting or just totally screwing up the substance.
Fix the adults first, or you've no hope of fixing the kids.
Send *both* twins to a conventional, fun Summer Camp---separate camps---of their choice. Tell the other daughter she gets a camp next year while the other two stay home, and to start looking at camps and figuring out what she wants.
Then while the kids are gone, use the extra time and energy to work in therapy to sort out the right, the wrong, the important, the trivial, and the different. As well as the things from your own childhood that set you up with so many buttons to be pushed.
The childhood thing is another area where the programs borrow the trappings of real therapy but really screw it up.
The real reason to go back and dig up and mull over the crap in your childhood is to better understand your own hot buttons so that when someone or something really pushes your buttons, and your reaction isn't really about that person or what they just did but is about your own baggage, you can take a deep breath, put your baggage aside, and just deal with whatever is really going on with that person instead of compounding it with all that baggage.
And so you can look at it consciously with adult eyes and quit subconsciously blaming yourself for crap that was going on with your parents that wasn't about you at all.
You have to *find* your baggage to be able to put it aside.
That's where the program people are generally packs of incompetent idiots. They're great at stirring up or pulling up loads and loads and loads of angsty baggage. They just don't know what the hell to *do* with it once they've dredged it up. Catharsis my ass. You don't dredge it up for "catharsis." You dredge it up to make it conscious enough that you're no longer letting your baggage pull your strings when you deal with people. And if you just dredge it up but you never figure out how it pulls your strings and how to make it stop, all you've got is those wonderful, transient, completely useless endorphins from your "catharsis."
Don't hand your kid over to a Program, even a summer one. There are so many people out there that are incompetent hacks that your odds of getting any improvement at all are lousy.
Family therapy *for the adults* is likely to have much better results and be cheaper to boot.
Timoclea
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Timo,
I need to re-read and digest all you've written (and in advance I thank you for taking the time to do so!)... but first I need to clear up a "mis-speak/mis-type" in my post. My reference to last summer's arrangement w/her father & step-mother as a "big mistake" had NOTHING to do with their rules or values or home or identities. The "big mistake" was the resentment fostered by the twin still w/me who viewed her sister's bad behaviors as being rewarded by escaping our rules, obligations and interactions. Sorry if it came across as a value judgment towards the ex... not the case at all.
I shall post back once I've gone thru your notes more in-depth, but didn't want that comment ("big mistake") to take on a life of its own and totally without basis in reality. My mistake in not making that clear.
pieper
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There's a program here in Arizona called Anasazi that looks to be good. It has had good reviews by parents and Barbara Bush.
http://www.anasazi.org/index.php (http://www.anasazi.org/index.php)
PHX :wink:
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George Bush the First made a commercial endorsing Straight, Inc. Nancy Reagan endorsed Straight and there was a huge photo of her in the front entrance. Melvin Sembler, the soon former ambassador to Italy, co-founded Straight. My parents and the parents of many many child victims of Straight's physical, mental, emotional and spiritual torture were told by people with whom they went to church that Straight was a very good thing.
People have to think for themselves and see for themselves. Even though the internet was not around in the 1980s, there were still ways to find out some alternative history on Straight, for example, there had already been court cases against Straight. There were likely records of complaints at various state agencies.
In Ohio there is a fat stack of police reports on Kids Helping Kids to be had by anyone who asks and pays a tiny fee for the copying. Have the parents who send their kids to KHK bothered to order these police reports, or even ask if there are any?
In fact, parents ought to be asking hard questions of the public schools where they send their kids as well.
I don't have any information on Anasazi. Myself I could think of a lot of other ways to spend $405 a day. $405 x 42-day minimum stay... Well, I guess insurance pays for it? But that's about $17,000 dollars. Shit, take the whole family to Italy! Or else go to Kenya and help out at an orphanage where the children live whose parents died of AIDS because the pharmaceuticals jack the price up so high for the AIDS drugs and world Governments fail to do anything significant. Or, hey! Since the AIDS drugs can really cost just a few hundred dollars a year, your family could sponsor some people in Africa so their kids don't have to be orphans! Just a suggestion. I guess a lot of families in this country are having some serious problems, or they would not be sending their kids away for someone else to fix? Here's a family problem for you: you were born in a slum in Kenya -- the Kenyan Government says the slum is illegal so it provides no serives whatsoever -- and twenty or thirty years later you and your kids' father die of AIDS*. Your kids live in the streets and huff (there are not enough orphanages, not even close) so they don't feel how hungry they are. They are at the mercy of street violence. They steal to get by, but the price can be high, such as being found guilty by a crowd of people who will then put a tire on them and set it on fire.
Oops, that diatribe was not directed at you, pieper! I've only had a half a cup of coffee. But let me know if you take any of my advice, and how it works out for your family. :wink:
*Forget condoms, they are not socially accepted and women get beat up for telling their husband to wear one. Also there is the fact that because of lack of information, or distrust of information, many people do not even know the accurate biological cause of AIDS. [ This Message was edited by: ..... on 2005-06-02 16:38 ]
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Timo,
Hope this Memorial Day finds you reflective and at peace...
I'm sure I will miss something in your posts, but please don't construe that as non-receipt of the message. Just under a tight time-constraint this evening since I "screwed off" at have been at the beach since very early this morning.
Therapy. Yes. This is in process. I'll hopefully get her into a highly recommended therapist this coming week. But alas, this week is also finals, so the juggling act begins anew. Either way, it IS an essential piece of the solution, and I realize that. However, as a kid my folks farmed me off to several therapists (one shrink and a few psychologists), and I hated every freakin' moment of those sessions. The former (shrink) was a med-freak, which really did nothing for me other than force me to drop my pants once a week for a shot and lots of RX co-pays for meds that did little more than make me sleepy. That aside... I realize that is the starting point for recovery of whatever is ailing this beautiful child 'o mine. Or us. My oldest daughter is nearly 21 and almost outta the house, so isn't really directly affected. However, she thinks Twin "A" is downright fucked up (committable, in her words)...
Without knowing mirror image twins intimately, I sincerely believe many cannot understand the bizarre dynamic involved, but DO concur that the "good" twin can easily and often play off that role in making the "bad" twin seem more bad. Yet in this case, the "good" twin's concern for her sister is overwhelming and sincere, and she seems to be doing her very best to remain neutral and trusting in me to help her twin. But they still don't like one another... :smile: Interestingly, they alternate the "good" and "bad" roles, and have since toddlerhood. Usually on an approximate bi-annual basis. But this run has lasted well over a year, and I am hoping to break the cycle for good. They are old enough now to hopefully escape these roles.
And I do agree that I set fairly high standards, and expect all three girls to do their best...whatever plane that may bring them to. I also know my girls very well, having raised them alone since the twins were 2 yrs. old. And I know and accept their limitations AND strengths. I do not hold them to the same standards just because they are twins. Again, mirror imaging means one is right-brained, the other left. And there are HUGE differences as a result with vastly different skills, aptitudes, likes, strengths.
Any gripes I have with their father are minor and silent. They have the gripes with him, and rarely spend time with him. She used last summer to "escape" the consequences of her behaviors, and played off his lack-of-experience/desire to hands-on parent. And that is natural, but unfortunate. Especially since she returned to rub her twins' nose in all the vacations, money, fun, and lack of responsibilities she lived for three months. In reality, he shipped her off to childless friends for much of the summer, and the rest she was free to spend online unsupervised in an empty house. But as you say, that's not necessarily "bad"... just different than my home. The end of our marriage was due to extended and intense abuse, BTW. So my kids have never been close to their father. So twin "B" ("good") would not want to spend a summer w/her father. She'd rather have root canals. So that concept would not work as a reward.
While I appreciate what you've said about healing the adults, the reality is not what you may believe. The kids have little contact with him -- nor desire to have more. I moved past my past MANY years ago (separated in 1993), and bear him no ill will nor harbor resentments. A chapter in my life closed, healed and overcome. So I am proceeding with counselling for my kids, and perhaps myself in learning to successfully address and overcome those issues.
I'd love to give twin "B" a "fun" summer, but she's lined up a parttime job, has softball and soccer here, and has a boyfriend, and wants to stay in her home enjoying these things. If I insisted ("you're going to GO... and you're going to have FUN", dammit!), that would equate to a punishment... not a reward.
Realistically, I cannot afford ANY of these programs. The Anasazi one mentioned by PHX looks really great, safe, and wholesome, but it is extremely expensive and seems geared towards drug problems. Mine's been smoking some weed, , but to my knowledge, it's nothing more than experimentation... and I expect that and accept that and trust she'll come out of the experience a little wiser. That unto itself is not our crisis.
I am sure this is disjointed. I apologize... and I DO sincerely thank you for your input, suggestions, and obvious compassion. You're clearly a very grounded, bright, and insightful lady. Thank you.
-pieper
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PHX is a programmie, or a troll. I think the latter.
If you dont know what a "troll" is let me fill you in: someone who sits on a forum and tries to get reactions by pissing people off or instigating fights. They really just want a responce.
Anyway, it seems to be the best option is to... sit on your butt and try to enjoy the summer! This industry is great at manipulating parents and making shit up to get you to send them your kid, and more importantly, your money, and LOTS of it. Often times the best thing to do is just let the kid grow up. Noninterference goes a long way!
The real issue, though, is the mentality that you can send a kid off to "some place" to "get fixed" in very general terms... its not possible. It wont happen! Ever asked for details or specifics about how all this stuff is supposed to work? I had a 40+ page thread going asking WWASPSies about how their programs are supposed to do a damn thing, and I've yet to get a clear responce about how they're therapeutic at all, except "SEMINARS!" which are nothing more than a big mind-fuck. If you dont believe me, stop by http://www.isaccorp.org (http://www.isaccorp.org) and read for yourself.
But, well, PHX apparently thinks they're just a-okay, so I think that speaks for itself. God is a concept by which we measure our pain.
--John Lennon, British songwriter and member of "The Beatles"
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On 2005-05-29 15:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"There's a program here in Arizona called Anasazi that looks to be good. It has had good reviews by parents and Barbara Bush.
http://www.anasazi.org/index.php (http://www.anasazi.org/index.php)
PHX :wink: "
So has Straight, Inc. I've heard Anasazi is coercive religious indoctrination.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. The people who ran straight had the best of intentions. I hope they reached their destination.
James Lloyd
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fka,
What a lovely diatribe! :grin:
I don't believe you meant to chastise me for asking for input on summer programs with your comment about "thinking for themselves", etc. At least that's my belief. I think sites like this are PART of the formulation of decisions and insightful thought in matters or areas not aforeto part of one's reality. Otherwise, I suspect we'd all learn the hard way... after potentially irreparable harm had been done to our children. No?
And for what it's worth, Bush's "endorsement" notwithstanding (<--- avid anti-Bush family here), the program PHX mentioned, Anasazi, looks fabulous in it's foundation and presentation. Their site provides a wealth of research data, including researcher's phone numbers!, which most others lack entirely. It also provides a decent array of "recommended reading" about the underpinnings and foundational core of their program, which I found to be VERY welcomed. But you are on the same page as I am on the costs. As a single parent with limited income, their fee is well beyond my ability. Although they do offer scholarships and apparently, depending on the situation, some costs CAN be covered by major med policies. Again, something I don't see mentioned on other sites...
Speaking only for myself... while I wholeheartedly believe in what you espouse re: African AIDS crisis, some of us poor slobs have to tackle problems IN our own home, let alone within our Nation, before we can rightfully, successfully address ills in other nations. I've been VERY involved in ALS, Alzheimers and POW/MIA advocacy... dating back decades. Why? Because they all touched my life, psyche, and family. And that's all I can tackle at this time. While I wish I could have a hand in curing everything... bringing attention and resources to every sore soul, every forgotten child, every injustice, I simply can't. Maybe someday? My heart aches for ALL of those suffering. Everywhere.
Peace to you.
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hey pieper,
thanks for taking my diatribe the right way! :smile:
and i definitely was not directing any of that "think for yourself" at you, not at all. the whole subject of these kids in lock down torture institutions really gets to me. my diatribe is really directed at all the parents who have done that to a kid and feel justified, or are completely oblivious... i am sorry that i did not make that more clear.
as for Africa and other social things that need work, maybe i think there is some connection between the way our culture is and why people including "teenagers" are so "messed-up". kind of like, there is work to be done in the world, and we know it, but we keep driving around buying stuff and watching crap tv...
there i go again. but once again, not personal. in fact, it is specifically because i get the impression that you are a thoughtful person that i am even posting here -- there are many threads that are just too hard for me to even address. since i was in one of these institutions the subject is painful. there are kids who are in solitary at some institution right now, or who spent all day face down on the floor, or who are "behaving" at one of these facilities because they know what will happen if they don't. threat of torture and witnessing abuse are also very damaging. if i had a candle i would light one for all these kids right now.
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Gosh Oh Golly Gee...buried within a ton of psychotalk is some good advice on bringing up kids....
Timo said (in a nutshell, after deleting excess)
Send *both* twins to a conventional, fun Summer Camp 4 week separate camps of their choice. Tell the other daughter she gets a camp next year while the other two stay home, and to start looking at camps and figuring out what she wants.
As the mother of 4 girls, the last 2 twins (fraternal), I have walked in your shoes. T's advice is good for the twins. Send them to separate camps. Ask what they want, send one to a horse camp, the other to a photography camp in Paris, whatever. Treat them as individuals. give them 4 weeks away from the family and they will apreciate it, especially since they are identified as one individual by the larger World. My twins did. I made them decline birthday party invitations issued to only one until they were in 8th grade, which was to protect the less popular one. I still think it was a good thing.
As to your other daughter, promises of a camp "next year" don't really cut it. Why not give her a Campfire Girls or YMCA camp, relatively inexpensive, one week somewhere in the woods, where she is special? All girls will then have an experience to share, and your "short-termer" camper will have some special one-on-one time with you without the presence of those attention-getting identical twins (I said I was experienced in your situation!).
I really don't think you need a "Program", and hearty congratulations on your efforts to find out exactly what you're getting in to. Kids mature differently, even if they're the same age. My twins (the youngest of 4 girls) are not really that good of friends as adults (31 yo), but they get along. One of them is quite close to the older sister (5 yrs older), and the other is independent, but close to us parents. As you may guess from reading some Fornits, our oldest daughter is a write-off, the one who valued her new marriage to a tyrant more than her relationship with her oldest daughter (sent her to WWASPS). In any event, we consider that an action by an independent adult...we don't understand, condone, or forgive it...but she did it, and that's that.
Families grow, diverge, congeal, and survive. Your twins will too. A camp is a good thing, but a Program is not. She needs something *good* in her life [even if she is being a PITA], and a Program is not it. Summer presents you with an option (no school) and you are wise in studying all options. Just stay away from an "emotional growth behavior modification" venue. You're OK, just experienceing a difficult child. Keep it low-key and you, her father and step-mother, her sisters...you'll all by OK eventually.
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Piper if you are looking for any one of these people to recomend a program, it won't happen they think that every single boarding school for troubled teens is abusive. It does not matter that they have not seen 98% of them. There are helpful programs, you just need to really investigate it before you make a choice. Be sure.
There are some out there that are not what you want. But to get helpful advice on where to find one, will not happen here.Most of these people belive it just because someone wrote it and said it is true. But as we know you can't believe everything you hear on the internet.
Good luck and be sure.
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Why do you need to send your damn kids off anyway? Whats the real motive? I know your motive isnt "sending them off", its a means for another end?
What is that end? This year will go down in history! For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!
Adolph Hitler
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On 2005-05-31 10:56:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"Why do you need to send your damn kids off anyway? Whats the real motive? I know your motive isnt "sending them off", its a means for another end?
What is that end? This year will go down in history! For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!
Adolph Hitler
"
Niles, if you were a parent, you wouldn't have to ask that. :smile: :smile: :smile:
It's okay to need a break from your kids. Taking a break for your kids leaving them with responsible adults who will treat them decently is perfectly okay. Sometimes the kids need a break from the parents, too.
When I was in fifth grade, my whole grade went to a boyscout camp for a week. I had a blast.
I went to band camp for a week every summer in high school. Boy, did we work hard and exercise hard. And played pranks, too. And the food was like the stuff they serve in most cafeterias like Piccadilly. It was for something we wanted to do, and we wanted to be there, so we had fun.
The kicker is getting someplace that is not trying to change or fix your kids, but just a good old conventional summer camp, preferably with a slant towards the kid's hobbies or talents.
Katie's dance studio (before it closed) used to have one or two sleepovers a year. My dh and I really enjoyed being able to go out on a date and have the house to ourselves for an evening.
There's nothing at all wrong with wanting and needing a break as a parent. The key is making sure of who you're leaving your kid with. Anybody who's offering to do something to your kid has to be looked at *very* carefully, because a lot of the methods these places use are lousy.
The guy said I won't recommend a single program.
Wrong.
The *real* Outward Bound, accept no substitutes, has a good reputation. Then again, my understanding is that they don't treat the kids like bad kids who need to be "fixed." They just have a good reputation of the kids enjoying the experience and, well, it seems that the kids learn hope from it because a lot of kids have never had a chance to go on that kind of adventure vacation and didn't know that kind of fun and beauty was even out there to be had.
All camps have rules. All camps enforce their rules. No camp lets a camper get away with being a royal brat---the counselors don't, and the other kids don't.
But summer camps are a lot more part of the real world than the Programs. In summer camp, the rules aren't there to "fix" you, and they don't start with the assumption that you're "defective" and "have made a lot of bad choices."
In summer camp, you start off with a clean slate and you only catch hell if you blot your copybook *there*. You have a great deal of *genuine* positive incentive to follow at least the important rules at least well enough to get along.
Kids break rules. So do adults. In the Real World, it's not whether or not you break the rules that matters---we all break the rules. It's how much and which ones how careful you are not to hurt people and how well you take your medicine when caught. As adults in the Real World, frequently we break the rules accidentally--we didn't know that was a rule. As long as we don't do permanent serious harm, we cope and take our lumps---which are genuinely proportional to the seriousness of the rule--and we go on.
Summer camp is part of real life. You may be on vacation--you are--but you still have to get along with the other campers, follow the basic rules, do your basic camp chores, etc. The consequences and rules are real, natural, and proportional---not artificial.
Let's get it straight---when you talk "work" and "a lot of structure" you mean punishment. You may not want to face that that's what you mean, but it is what you mean. They start off punishing your child by taking away everything that makes a day worth getting out of bed for, make your child get out of bed and toe the line---with no positives to her day at all--until she "earns" back very small positive things one by one.
They'll tell you that's positive reinforcement they're using, but it's not. It's negative reinforcement. They put the child in an artificially harsh environment and then take away the pain, little by little, as rewards. Only, because kids are made to inform on each other and kids lie, they get the punishment cranked back up for nothing at all, frequently. The result is learned helplessness.
Teach a hundred rats learned helplessness. Put them each in a vat of water, along with another hundred rats in another hundred vats, leave them until they drown and time them. The rats taught learned helplessness give up, stop swimming, and drown faster than the rats without learned helplessness.
Learned helplessness is serious, permanent damage to an organism's mind. Rat, pigeon, dog, cat, or human, it's a terrible, terrible thing.
Now, you may be mad enough at your kid to be thinking, "Yeah! Serve her right!"
But you're talking about sending your kid to a punishment camp harsher than any grounding basically not for doing a specific bad thing, but just for existing and "being a bad kid."
I don't ground my daughter for "being a bad kid"---I ground her or punish her for specific serious infractions of our family rules.
If the programs started off with the kid in a conventional boarding school with conventional rules and only started taking away privileges for demerits and letting kids work them off *reasonably* (like the way the Citadel has cadets work off demerits by walking tours)---and I don't consider propaganda worksheets, staring at walls, or 50 page handwritten essays on what you did wrong, or time in isolation cells "reasonable" for adolescent children---then they wouldn't be so terribly damaging.
But sending a kid to a punishment camp just because you're, pardon my french, tired of her shit----that's like coming home and telling your kid, "You're grounded, and you're on a strict zero junk food diet, and I'm taking away all your clothes but two sets of sweats, and, by the way, here's your really huge list of chores and I don't want to talk to you or even see your face, because you're a terrible kid. Oh, by the way, I love you and this is all for your own good."
The *details* of the punishment camp vary, but what really matters is it's a huge, gigantic punishment not for any specific thing they *did* but for who they *are*.
"I hate you, you rotten brat, but I really love you, and this is for your own good, and you'll thank me someday, because I don't want you, you brat, I can't stand you, I wish I had a decent kid and this place will turn you into one or half kill you trying. Oh, and guess what, no matter what they do to you, I don't care, and I won't believe you, because nothing else matters to me than that I get some other kid back in your body instead of you, a *good* kid, because I really loathe you and I never want to see you again you rotten, rotten monster. But I just *looooove* your true self this wonderful punishment camp is going to bring out in you, and it's for your own good because your rotten self should be dead, dead, dead. I want a good kid, dammit!"
That's the real message parents send a kid when they send her to a Program.
No matter how much a parent says otherwise, their *actions* say that they really loathe that kid and want a different kid back.
And I suppose for many parents that's true.
But it doesn't sound like it's true of you, and so I hope that instead of sending your child to a punishment camp, you send your kids to different *regular* summer camps where they'll only be treated badly if they behave badly.
Timoclea
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Pieper---If your other twin is so sincerely concerned and compassionate, and wants to stay home this summer, why would she have a cow about her sister going off to a summer camp that *wasn't* a punishment camp?
"Highly structured" and "work" are industry code for very harsh and punitive conditions. So is "examine the choices that got them here."
If your other daughters are sincerely interested in the welfare of twin "A," then there should be no problem with sending her to a conventional summer camp and mentioning the obvious---all summer camps have rules, and if twin "A" breaks them, the camps have whatever they do when the kids break rules. If twin "A" is a pain to the other campers, they'll respond in kind.
On the other hand, if she gets there and follows the rules and is nice to the other kids, she'll have a wonderful camp experience.
That's not true of any of the Programs (other than Outward Bound). Well, more to the point, not true of any of the programs on the Level system. And the overwhelming majority of behavior modification programs are on the level system.
They all start you off miserable from the get-go, just for being there, and you have to "earn" your way off of the punishing, harsh existence they set you---and mere good behavior is *never* enough---you have to either let them screw with your mind very deeply, or you have to be good enough at faking it to fool them, or you have to have the stamina to just endure the harsh initial circumstances until you get out---and most kids who pick the stamina route (rightly) blame their parents for the bad choice to send them there and want little or nothing to do with their parents until their parents see the light and apologize.
Please don't send your child to a punishment camp.
The places that say they'll fix your kid generally lie to parents and you have no idea how harshly they're treating your kid to deliver the apparent results of an apparently fixed kid who will toe the line until her 18th birthday to avoid getting sent back---but who has suffered horrible, serious psychological damage.
It's understandable to be upset at your daughter's bad choices.
But don't compound them with a bad choice of your own.
Remember the first rule for avoiding cons:
If something sounds too good to be true, it is.
These places that say they can fix your kid? They're *all* "too good to be true."
A conventional summer camp will do far more good and far less harm, and if you explain it compassionately that twin "A" needs some time away but in an environment with *realistic and responsible* rules, under realistic and responsible adult supervision---someplace that won't treat her badly unless and until she behaves badly----if your other daughters are compassionate and care about her, they'll be able to see that that's the best option.
And real summer camps are a lot cheaper than programs, anyway.
I don't know if you're religious, but "Vacation Bible School" camps usually don't cost a whole lot and, while they are devotional, they are not punitive.
Timoclea
On 2005-05-30 15:30:00, pieper wrote:
"Timo,
Hope this Memorial Day finds you reflective and at peace...
I'm sure I will miss something in your posts, but please don't construe that as non-receipt of the message. Just under a tight time-constraint this evening since I "screwed off" at have been at the beach since very early this morning.
Therapy. Yes. This is in process. I'll hopefully get her into a highly recommended therapist this coming week. But alas, this week is also finals, so the juggling act begins anew. Either way, it IS an essential piece of the solution, and I realize that. However, as a kid my folks farmed me off to several therapists (one shrink and a few psychologists), and I hated every freakin' moment of those sessions. The former (shrink) was a med-freak, which really did nothing for me other than force me to drop my pants once a week for a shot and lots of RX co-pays for meds that did little more than make me sleepy. That aside... I realize that is the starting point for recovery of whatever is ailing this beautiful child 'o mine. Or us. My oldest daughter is nearly 21 and almost outta the house, so isn't really directly affected. However, she thinks Twin "A" is downright fucked up (committable, in her words)...
Without knowing mirror image twins intimately, I sincerely believe many cannot understand the bizarre dynamic involved, but DO concur that the "good" twin can easily and often play off that role in making the "bad" twin seem more bad. Yet in this case, the "good" twin's concern for her sister is overwhelming and sincere, and she seems to be doing her very best to remain neutral and trusting in me to help her twin. But they still don't like one another... :smile: Interestingly, they alternate the "good" and "bad" roles, and have since toddlerhood. Usually on an approximate bi-annual basis. But this run has lasted well over a year, and I am hoping to break the cycle for good. They are old enough now to hopefully escape these roles.
And I do agree that I set fairly high standards, and expect all three girls to do their best...whatever plane that may bring them to. I also know my girls very well, having raised them alone since the twins were 2 yrs. old. And I know and accept their limitations AND strengths. I do not hold them to the same standards just because they are twins. Again, mirror imaging means one is right-brained, the other left. And there are HUGE differences as a result with vastly different skills, aptitudes, likes, strengths.
Any gripes I have with their father are minor and silent. They have the gripes with him, and rarely spend time with him. She used last summer to "escape" the consequences of her behaviors, and played off his lack-of-experience/desire to hands-on parent. And that is natural, but unfortunate. Especially since she returned to rub her twins' nose in all the vacations, money, fun, and lack of responsibilities she lived for three months. In reality, he shipped her off to childless friends for much of the summer, and the rest she was free to spend online unsupervised in an empty house. But as you say, that's not necessarily "bad"... just different than my home. The end of our marriage was due to extended and intense abuse, BTW. So my kids have never been close to their father. So twin "B" ("good") would not want to spend a summer w/her father. She'd rather have root canals. So that concept would not work as a reward.
While I appreciate what you've said about healing the adults, the reality is not what you may believe. The kids have little contact with him -- nor desire to have more. I moved past my past MANY years ago (separated in 1993), and bear him no ill will nor harbor resentments. A chapter in my life closed, healed and overcome. So I am proceeding with counselling for my kids, and perhaps myself in learning to successfully address and overcome those issues.
I'd love to give twin "B" a "fun" summer, but she's lined up a parttime job, has softball and soccer here, and has a boyfriend, and wants to stay in her home enjoying these things. If I insisted ("you're going to GO... and you're going to have FUN", dammit!), that would equate to a punishment... not a reward.
Realistically, I cannot afford ANY of these programs. The Anasazi one mentioned by PHX looks really great, safe, and wholesome, but it is extremely expensive and seems geared towards drug problems. Mine's been smoking some weed, , but to my knowledge, it's nothing more than experimentation... and I expect that and accept that and trust she'll come out of the experience a little wiser. That unto itself is not our crisis.
I am sure this is disjointed. I apologize... and I DO sincerely thank you for your input, suggestions, and obvious compassion. You're clearly a very grounded, bright, and insightful lady. Thank you.
-pieper"
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The tone of my first response on this page was harsher than I meant it to be, Pieper.
That wasn't at you.
I get so mad at these places that it comes across when I talk about them and I really wasn't trying to take it out on you.
You don't sound like you're looking for a punishment camp, but all the places on the level system and a huge number of the "wilderness camps" actually are punishment camps.
They present themselves to parents as much less harsh than they are, and we see on here over and over again parents who go pick their kid up and find out their kid has been living in conditions that absolutely appall them and that weren't anything at all like the brochures and the web pages described.
So I was mad at them, not you, and I apologize for the portions of my tone that came across as mad at you.
I may not have seen these places, but we've had parents on here that we've encouraged to go pick up their kids---and the parents have come back and told us that their kid was being treated just like we had said we were afraid of.
Search on Chi3 to see a recent example of this. She had her child at Carolina Springs and thought it was fine, until she talked to child welfare and the lady couldn't tell her outright that the place was bad news but hinted broadly enough that Chi3 went and got her daughter. She was glad she did. Her daughter was being treated a lot more harshly than Chi3 had expected her to be.
Maybe some of the summer wilderness camps aren't bad. Outward Bound itself, the original, is reportedly not bad.
The problem is that the ones that are bad lie to parents and misrepresent themselves so badly that you can't find the ones that aren't bad. And the very worst ones can be very, very good at putting up a good front and *looking* like they're fabulous.
I understand "committable"---I have bipolar disorder, it's one of the two worst mental illnesses. I'm stable on meds. Not perfect, but functional and safe and generally getting along in life.
If your daughter is really is "committable" (if that's not just hyperbole) then she has a mental illness of some sort. Maybe you didn't have one, maybe meds just made you sleepy, maybe "committable" was hyperbole. But if she does have one, then she needs treatment and the right meds in the right doses from the right psychiatrist can be an important and necessary component of an effective treatment plan.
If it was hyperbole, fine. 'Nuff said.
If it wasn't, nothing will help if you don't effectively treat the underlying mental illnesses. The National Institutes of Mental Health---the federal government organization for studying mental illness---has said that Programs that place mentally ill children alongside juvenile delinquents do more harm than good to the mentally ill children.
So if it's not hyperbole, and she seems "committable"---see a psychiatrist and get it checked out. *You* might not be mentally ill, but if she is she could really benefit from treatment.
Timoclea
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I was the family black sheep. (I bet a lot of people here were.) I would act worse and worse the more I was labeled as such. It was a defense mechanism, like someone already said. Once I felt like the bad one, I had no hope that anyone would ever think of me any other way, so I pretended to like my new role. I thought that my siblings were just as bad as I was, but better at hiding it. I always had a hunch that my parents loved them better than me, and it was confirmed when I was sent away. Our family had problems, but because mine were the most obvious, I was the one sent away. My parents thought I was disrupting the lives of my siblings. I was worse when I got back. I hated my family more than ever.
I guess what I'm saying is that your daughter is probably hurting and locked into her role. Sending her away may confirm for her what she already fears - that you don't love her. (I'm not saying that you don't. I think you have proved that you do by all of your research.)
By the way, my family is okay now. We'll never be close - I keep them at arm's length. I don't trust them because as far as I'm concerned, they broke my trust. But I realize that they didn't know what to do, and had no other advice but to send me away.
Oh, also, I was a princess when I was a teenager and I still am today. But I did realize at some point that if I wanted to live like a princess, I'd have to get a college education and get a J-O-B! So I did.
Good luck!
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Oh my gosh, haven't read all the responses to the initial parent writing in about considering Oak Creek Ranch. We looked at it a little over three years ago, and did not feel it was a safe place at ALL for our child. We arrived unannounced and saw some very disturbing things about it. One thing that was a huge turnoff was that there was a street that went right through the school, that was pretty well traveled by residents who lived further down the road. The kids looked unkempt, no dress code, lots of scary goth type kids, and no adult supervision in the common area where two teens, a boy and a girl, were watching TV in a dark room, making out and all over each other. A staff was present in the office adjacent to the room that the kids were in, and he was smoking. We left and didn't even come back in the morning for the formal interview and tour. Not good unless it has made a 360 turnaround.
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pieper,
Let me know if you need any more info about it, although it was three years ago.
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On 2005-05-31 20:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Oh my gosh, haven't read all the responses to the initial parent writing in about considering Oak Creek Ranch. We looked at it a little over three years ago, and did not feel it was a safe place at ALL for our child. We arrived unannounced and saw some very disturbing things about it. One thing that was a huge turnoff was that there was a street that went right through the school, that was pretty well traveled by residents who lived further down the road. The kids looked unkempt, no dress code, lots of scary goth type kids, and no adult supervision in the common area where two teens, a boy and a girl, were watching TV in a dark room, making out and all over each other. A staff was present in the office adjacent to the room that the kids were in, and he was smoking. We left and didn't even come back in the morning for the formal interview and tour. Not good unless it has made a 360 turnaround."
Is this a troll job? lol! How is a street going to go right through a school, exactly? I suppose that its comprised of several buildings, (because a street going though a building is impossible), and the grounds of the camp straddle the street?
As far as the goth kids or lack of dresscode... WHO CARES? Making out in the middle of some summer camp does seem a bit odd, though. Most camps are segregated by gender in the dorms, and the official stance (like all places these days) would be "NO PDA" right? But, I guess nature takes its course in common areas if there isnt some adult to tell them "no".
Ultimately, making out is harmless. Unless you hire chauffeurs to shadow your children or throw them in lockup, they're going to make out if they are post-pubescent, anyway. All who doubted or denied would be lost. To live a moral and honest life -- to keep your contracts, to take care of wife and child -- to make a happy home -- to be a good citizen, a patriot, a just and thoughtful man, was simply a respectable way of going to hell.
--
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Nil,
(because a street going though a building is impossible)
Couldn't resist. Not true! Can't recall which, but a street runs through the formerly-known-as PanAm building in Manhattan. Okay, technically under it I suppose...
And I am nearly certain, without being clairvoyant, that the street ran through the school complex/compound/campus.
Back later with more serious responses.
-pieper
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Liger,
Your post really seems to "name that tune" with my troubled daughter. She often ridicules herself, which I can now see as an extension of the normal "joshing" amongst the family... a resignation to and exaggeration of the silly comments about characteristics made over the years. For instance, she's VERY gifted at falling UP the stairs... no reason other than being distracted, but it's become a standing joke in the house. Not mean-spirited at all. Her twin is likewise gifted at tripping OUT of the bathtub. When troubled twin was real little, she'd always say "huh", so that became an appendage to her given name, etc. Again, not mean-spirited. I can now see that her temperment and/or psyche absorbed those little, innocous, in-good-fun comments and became stuck ("locked in") on them... drawing inferences that were unintended and absorbing them in an exaggerated manner. Unlike my other girls, this one has for some reason dwelled on the "negative" she extracted in her life rather than the positive. And from those little, bitty things, she's come to feel less-loved, less-special, less-intelligent. A real revelation for me. And a source of terrible sadness and regret. Boy, am I hurting right about now. But apparently not nearly as much as she is.
This all may also partially explain some of her other recent behaviors which in my heart I know are not really "her"; like gender issues, cutting herself(minor), smoking, piss-poor school work, etc. All actions that she's taken to counter her former image of a very sweet, studious, responsible, gorgeous, meticulous, athletic,and focused young lady who was crazy about clothes, boys, soccer, track, blahblahblah. She seems to have re-defined herself in the lowliest image based on family and non-family joshing or comments.
Ironically, her twin has been dubbed "the evil one" for the past 5+ years due to her devious humor and gothic/punk style. Yet she's remained "intact" and extremely happy. Another instance of the odd nature of twins, I suppose! And a real lesson in inherent traits v. environmental influences.
Wow. Thanks for your post... which truly has defined what is likely the root of Twin "A"s situation. Just hope it can all be reversed and this child "salvaged". We are awaiting our appt. with a counselor... and I'm prayin' she'll be a positive facilitator, and my daughter will be receptive and willing to heal.
Thanks, Liger. Most sincerely.
pieper
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Anon 20:05,
Thanks a bunch for your input as a first-hand observer! I'd pretty much decided against just about every program/camp option already... mostly as a result of the feedback from the folks here, some soul-searching and serious budget issues, but every additional shred of feedback is most certainly appreciated and filed away in memory.
The internet is a wonderful, wonderful tool! Thank you...
pieper
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Spots,
Sorry for the slow response... no disrespect intended at all.
Due to logisitics, camp for both twins this summer isn't possible. My other daughter's a little too old for camp (21), so she's out of that picture. :smile:
I work alot of side jobs (concerts) in the summer months, plus am in the midst of guardianship proceedings for my nephews and niece out West, and one twin has a work committment (first job and all!), the other may be attending summerschool ALL summer-long. Just so many obstacles. Had I only known about the problems I'm now seeing *months* ago, perhaps I could have managed camp(s) this summer. But I surely WILL look towards sending them each their own way next summer, and think that's a really good idea. I spent many of my summers at Campfire camps, then later at horse/beach camps, and those are some of the best memories of my youth without a doubt.
Thanks for validating my thoughts and standing as a parent. And for reminding me of one of my Mom's most-oft cited sayings... "this too shall pass". There is hope. Those are invaluable thoughts right about now.
Thanks, Spots...
pieper
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Timo,
No offense taken to any tone in anyone's posts here, but appreciate your owning up to your anger. That's not always easy to do. Having spent 10+ years moderating boards,chats & web sites for a major ISP (including medical and mental health issues), I'm pretty adept and understanding of the 'net world and the sometimes misplaced emotions. I've got a real thick skin that way! But I thank you...
More incidents have occurred in this house over the last few days bringing to light how truly "at risk" this child is, and therapy is a definite, immediate need. Without therapy, this one will be in a locked psych ward at the rate she's accelerating her "acting out", and not at my behest. :sad: I'm hoping to get the appointment tomorrow, but know I have to be patient and not irritating to the professional whose assistance I'm seeking. Frustrating given what's happening.
I've learned SOOoo much here. I cannot express how grateful I am to have stumbled in these doors and to have received so many responses to my queries. It's a wonderful feeling to know your questions and thoughts are deserving of so many people's time and concern, and that they aren't yours alone.
pieper
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The link below came to my mailbox a few weeks ago. I know nothing about the school/program, but at first glance, it appears that they offer a useful experience. IF your kiddo would enjoy that type of thing, or agree to give it a try.
Wilderness is not inherently bad, only when it is used as punishment, imho.
Many a parent has 'bribed' their kid to try new things, just for the experience.
What are your child's interests?
I'm way behind on reading here, so pardon me if I'm asking questions or making suggestions that have already been offered.
The link:
http://www.kroka.org/programs-school.shtml (http://www.kroka.org/programs-school.shtml)
I know there are other similar programs that aren't about forced marches, brow beating and humiliation.
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And for reminding me of one of my Mom's most-oft cited sayings... "this too shall pass". There is hope. Those are invaluable thoughts right about now.
Thanks, Spots...
pieper"
What a great gift. Pieper. Thank you (having just got off the phone with one twin who is expecting her 2nd high risk child and is frantic in a 800-sq.ft. house), To our children, we need to say, "This too shall pass"...and it will. >
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No problem, Pieper. Thanks for reading everything with an open mind. Your daughter is lucky that you genuinely care.
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Pieper, just one more thought. I wonder if schooling (not synonymous w/ education... in fact, roughly antithetical) might be a major part of the problem? I don't know if you're willing to consider it, as it does require setting aside a few core beliefs about the nature of schooling and of education. But don't let school requirements get in the way of doing what's right for your daughter. In all 50 states, it's legal (and usually quite easy) to get out of compulsory attendance requirements by way of homeschooling. It's especially easy if the kid is employed in the entertainment industry. So what about taking her along w/ you this summer as an apprentice? Would she go for that?
It is the absolute right of the state to supervise the formation of public opinion.
--Joseph Goebbels
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"like gender issues, cutting herself(minor), smoking, piss-poor school work, etc."
This sounds like the standard difficult-adolescence "I don't know who the hell I am or who the hell I want to be" angst.
Which doesn't make it any easier to deal with.
It's heartbreaking to watch your beautiful baby, grown into your beautiful child, struggle.
(Can you tell I'm a mom?)
Pieper, you've really got my sympathy.
The smoking and the cutting are both things people use to "self-medicate" by reducing anxiety. The smoking because nicotine increases available serotonin---just like prozac. The cutting because it releases endorphins.
The piss-poor grades sound like she *may* be avoiding doing school work because she's so anxious about whatever's bothering her that she gets more anxious every time she tries to do her schoolwork and just shuts down.
The anxiousness may or may not be school related---but because of the pressure over grades (which comes from life, not just you), if it didn't start off school-related, it's spiralled into that. She's afraid of her bad grades so she avoids everything to do with schoolwork because it reminds her of her angst----which further sinks her grades.
If she doesn't have a major mental illness, she *might* benefit from a low dose of an anti-anxiety drug long enough to let therapy start taking effect. If you can get her exercising to get her endorphins instead of cutting, you can eliminate the cutting. If you can get her to have reduced anxiety, as part of therapy, you *may* be able to get her to quit smoking. If you can reduce her grade-related anxiety temporarily with meds, then homework help with someplacy like Sylvan can help her get her grades back under control and eliminate at least *part* of the source of the angst.
I'm not sure where the gender issues are coming from and whether there's anything "real" there causing her angst, or whether they're a symptom of the angst.
Well, I'm not sure about *any* of it since I don't know you.
Except that what you've described *sounds like* loads of pain and angst and you may need to temporarily take that load off of her chemically for her to have the energy and focus to start, one by one, coping with the problems that have built up so much angst.
Or a good therapist may be able to do it without meds.
All I can suggest is that you keep an open mind and ask around with other parents in your area to find a really good therapist.
You're obviously a very caring mother, and your daughter is obviously in the throes of some serious teenage pain.
Dang, you couldn't pay me enough to get me to go back and be a teenager again.
Timoclea
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While I believe major mental illnesses *need* to be medicated, I'm hesitant to suggest them for normal teen angst---except that smoking is *already* effectively taking prozac, only much more dangerously to long term health if the addiction really gets a grip on her.
It's easier to get people to quit taking an SSRI or Welbutrin when they no longer need it than it is to get them to quit smoking.
And the cutting, if it becomes an entrenched habit, may seem minor now, but could become quite serious.
Those are the *only* reasons I'm saying you may want to keep an open mind if her doctor doesn't find any serious mental illness but suggests *very temporary* medication to assist her in the early stages of therapy. And that only *very* carefully.
She's already on an SSRI she's doing to herself---the nicotine. If you can get her buy-in to get her off that, and then gradually off the replacement for the nicotine, the health benefits are probably worth it.
Tough call. All I can suggest is that you make sure you find a really good professional to help you figure out what's best for her.
If it won't offend you, you'll have my prayers.
T.
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Any more info about Oak Creek Ranch during a regular school year program?