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Messages - landyh

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31
The Seed Discussion Forum / Dear John
« on: December 02, 2005, 06:11:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-12-02 13:10:00, Stripe wrote:

"Landyh,



Regardless of why or how you came back there, which round, after all these years, was the most helpful to you ?  Which was the most damaging? I'm just curious. If that's a question you prefer not to answer, or can't answer right now, I understand.  I know my position on the seed has changed over the course of my life.







"

No problem answering that. The Seed that existed on 3rd avenue was a place of love and acceptance. The "love ya's" at least felt real not rote responses. I don't remember anything feeling forced but more like suggestions. People that were there then came of ther own volition. I felt the people there had real feelings and concerns for me and I for them. It was a smaller group and Art was not at all secluded. He was funny, charismatic to be sure but caring and available. On a mission to be sure but not at all full of himself then. St Rd 84 was different. Too big. Art was isolated from the group by his staff. I felt like although they would have liked to have made you think they were just protecting him so he would have time for the bigger picture they really just wanted to protect there own place in his clique. Keeping others out as if they were afraid it might threaten there own position. I don't know if the changes were evolutionary in nature or the result of growing faster than they could manage. That it was no longer voluntary for the vast majority of us is probably the worst of the changes. It is one thing to submit yourself to rigorous self honesty to save yourself quite another to be broken to the point that your willing to say anything to get out. I don't blame the seed for the problems I was to have later in either case but as to which was more helpful to me I can answer that. My first time was positive and even beneficial though not a cure all for what was really going on. The second time was not like that at all excepting that I did get away from drugs for a while subsequently and i needed to. I felt like I gave up a little piece of myself to do it. i believe the methodological changes that had taken place in the time between my experiences were damaging in some sense. Reflected here maybe in the way I go back and forth on how i feel about the overall experience. Perhaps why I can see and even take both sides of an issue even today without being able to plant myself firmly on either side. There is a good side to that I know and this duality is deeply rooted in how I percieve things even now but sometimes I wish I could see things in black and white as so many here seem to be able to do. There would come a certain peace in being convinced of the infalliability of my own perceptions I suspect. One that at least to this point in my life I have  never known. This ability to see both sides does help in its own way. It makes me a fair negotiator and mediator when that is called for and I think at times allows me to provide a calming influence in certain situations. i hope that answered your question.

32
The Seed Discussion Forum / simple response to John Underwood
« on: December 02, 2005, 04:04:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-09-03 06:52:00, Antigen wrote:

"Wow, I do wonder what kind of PM's John's getting. I haven't sent any. And I seriously doubt anyone's sent any poison pen type PMs. Here's what I wonder; I wonder if my brother's all chummy w/ Lauderdale and John? I wonder if they PM each other just to talk shit about me? Not that I'm convinced of it. Just that I wonder; it wouldn't be out of line at all w/ my experience w/ Seedlings in general and my own brother specifically.

The clearest way into the Universe is through a forest wilderness.
-- John Muir

"

Ginger,
the secrets got to be out. I did tell Ft Laud. how  intriqued i am with you and how I respect your manner of dissent at least in response to me. Ok! I feel better now that I've confessed. I know just another example of our overdisclosing ways. But I think a little overdisclosure keeps things interesting. Besides you already knew all that anyway. I know you say your over it but your anger sometimes seems to belie that. I for one enjoy your feistiness. Just don't wish for it to be old hurts that generate it.  :wave:

33
The Seed Discussion Forum / Dear John
« on: December 02, 2005, 03:46:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-12-02 09:53:00, Stripe wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-12-02 07:17:00, Anonymous wrote:


"Are you sure you would not have been that way anyway? I'm not being a jerk.  I'm being honest.


Some people want to blame someone for everything instead of accepting the responsibility on their own."






Yes, some people might, but I don?t think I?m one of them.  How much responsibility I accept for my psychological reaction to being brainwashed and punished for things I never did is a tough question answer.  Apparently, persons can live a lifetime  trying to compensate for some pretty deep stuff and never really know the root cause.  Some people go silently to their demise, others blowup, and others never even wake up.





There?s really no way for me to answer your question that won?t get my ass-kicked by the people who fully believe in the value of tough love programs.  If I disagree with your presumption that I would have been ?that way anyway? then I?m in the proverbial denial patch and I?m ?blaming someone for everything instead of accepting responsibility? on my own.  And if I agree with you, then I have completely invalidated the actions I have taken in my life to recover from the seed experience.  



But I simply cannot deny the damage any longer.



In the context of your question, your use of the word honesty ? well it just seems and odd way to ?soften? the blow of blaming someone for being in the wrong place at the wrong time and being lied to and held against their will.  The only way out was to admit and embrace some very vile character flaws I never had until then.  Like lying, like sacrificing, like turning against another to protect myself.  You get my drift?



Don?t get me wrong, I?m no slouch, laying around moaning about how hurt I am or how bad my life has been. To the contrary - I work productively (when I?m not screwing around here but this too, is work), I have my own business, I have two advanced degrees, I am married and I have successfully raised a family and I pay for my kid?s college and my family and friends profess and show me love and kindness daily. I do massive amounts of pro bono work for friends, business associates, family and stangers and I help the elderly at every opportunity.  I have been an award winning athlete, and I have fought hard to protect the under dog and accused  all of my professional career.



And I?ve let people, like you, who I do not personally know, kick my ass, doubt my ?honesty? and   time and time again blame me for the outcome of abuse I never needed to correct a problem I never fucking had.  As I said before, it?s mop up time now. Time to reconcile myself with what I did to me.  It?s okay if you think my perceptions are wrong because now, if I am wrong, it?s only me I?m hurting and no one else. But I seriously doubt that putting this early piece of my life back together, in perspective, and letting myself off the hook is going to hurt me or you.  Really, it can only help me do more of what I do better, for many more people.  



As an aside, everyone who reads this forum might want to read Mark Polonsky's article.  It was an eye-opener for me. Just like John's posts have validated your sense of self, so this article has validated my sense of self because someone else had an experiece that was so shockingly similar.  Taking it all to heart, is a giant leap in the recovery process.  



Peace out.

"

Stripe,
I really like your post. I come in here having gone through two totally different experiences at the Seed and not only can I see both sides of this I lived it. I just feel we get so much further when we share our own experience rather than attacking everyone elses. I don't really feel I can argue with what happened to you nor you me. I do appreciate that you expressed it. Consider yourself lucky that you only have the one point of view to reconcile. Very black and white. Imagine if you had these dualistic views that I have to contend with. I am glad you have done well for yourself and others and that you have found some healing here. Tha'ts why I'm here. To find some healing and understanding for myself. As long as people don't try to deny my experience just because it doesn't fit theirs I play pretty nice here if I do say so myself.

peace back at ya

34
The Seed Discussion Forum / Dear John
« on: December 02, 2005, 03:31:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-12-02 12:21:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Antigen- "Thats not important"



By the way Lybbi used to say from my memory $100 dollar a day habit."

I remember a $100 a day habit too. Maybe she was just adjusting for inflation. :wink:

35
The Seed Discussion Forum / Memories of being clean and sober
« on: December 01, 2005, 07:16:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-12-01 12:53:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Well you are right. I absolutely cannot relate to the continued obsession that some people have. And perhaps that is why I just see it as something that is so black and white - if it's bad for you then its bad for you and you just don't do it.  Period.



I did experience addication with freebase cocaine for a while back in the early 1980's, post-seed.  I saw what it did to my health, my personal realtions, my honor, and least of all my bank account.  I guess I was lucky in that I did stop.  And while I may get slammed for sounding ungrateful to some group or higher power, I just stopped. Period.  There was no back and forth on the issue, no bargaining with god, no groups, no nothing. But I did lie there shaking and sick and sleepless and I never touched it again.  I don't think that makes me any better or worse than anyone else.  I just chose not to use again because the consequences were so fucked up and I could see it was a killer.



Now?  I have way too much to lose now to ever even think about going back, let alone taking a snort or picking up a pipe. The past is the past. I am not proud of it and I had all but forgotten those few months until this time.



I've not meant to be cruel in my statement, but sometimes it seems that the seedlings who go on to AA or other step-type programs really do wear that as some kind of badge of honor - like unless I have lost like you guys I can't possibly understand how complicated your feelings and thoughts are or how important they are. Maybe tht's not the intent of what you or others put out there, but honestly, that's what I perceive.  Somehow, my thoughts and feelings are less valid becasue I don't subscribe to your belief system.  Funny, isn't it that we both make each other feel that way. What is it about us that causes that?



I went to the seed, I smoked pot maybe a half dozen times before my parents got brainwashed and put me in there and I did a hell of a lot more drugs post-seed than I care to remember. But I still managed to walk away because I paid attention to the results.  



What I can't understand is why there would be any question in any persons mind about whether or not he or she could do that again (you drink -me smoke freebase cocaine (is that now crack?)).



Is there a question in your mind that maybe you can drink?  Is there some kind of "want" to do it even with knowledge that you never should because of the results?   Look at what Walter wrote about his sister and the drama.  Is that what it is?    



For me? It's just not an option.  I have have no desire to. Alcohol might be pervasive but like coke, you still gotta make an effort to search it out. And while one is searching, there's time to change your mind.



You also wrote this:

It isn't explainable or understandable in any truly scientific way but through experience. If you haven?t had that experience I am glad for you but don't try to boil down my feelings and my own experience which I have expressed unreservedly and un-anonymously here to some narrow viewpoint that fits the way you think things are. Instead of being attacked by you for what doesn't fit into perception of things why don't you share your own experience?





Sooo...First of all, what difference does it make if I chose to remain anonymous ? I have replied back and put myself out, too.



While you may have perceived my initial post as an attack, I look at your collective stated experiences (and I've been reading here on this  board for well over a year), and then I read what JaLong writes back which I will leave you to review again-then I think on my experience and I wonder why you guys feel the need to get so "strokey" and pet each other for living and getting through life. Isn't that what we should be doing anyway?   Hell, we all live life.  We experience happiness, sorrow, loss, and goodness - everything. It's the human condition.  The sun is still the same and so is the grass, birds and the flowers. Forgive me, but I think it's just a matter of whether you pay attention to what's there.  



If the stove is hot - don't touch it.  It's the lesson I was taught, it's the lesson I taught my kid. I guess I am just that simplisitic. Anyway, that's my experience with addiction. It didn't take much to turn me off of it entirely. "

I was in your shoes and I was not ignorant in any way as to the damage I was doing and perhaps that I was so aware of what I was doing made it that much worse, because in spite of all my self knowlege I couldn't stop. I would have given anything to stop but it took me awhile to find a way to do that. I accept that it is black and white for you based on your experience but I for one realize that my own experience was not that simple. All I was asking is for you to realize that the differences in our experiences fail to diminsih the validity of either. Can you see that. I don't in any way devalue your story just because things just didn't work that way for me. I just would appreciate at least the same consideration. I don't mean that to sound harsh either as your last post and the way you shared is something that reaches me. While I believe there are truths that are common to us all those truths lie at a deeper level than the things that happen to us. Those things can be quite different from person to person. You and I are different in our experience with addiction but do you really think any of us went to AA because we wanted to belong to some group? It was my refuge of last resort and I nearly killed myself trying to avoid the fact that it was what this alcoholic needed. Do I still consider drinking? Yes sometimes or a better way to say it would be to say that I sometimes wish I could drink normally and in moderation. On the other hand I am no longer the victim of an obsession to drink and believe me there is an enormous difference.
I hate to say this but "thanks for sharing"

36
The Seed Discussion Forum / Memories of being clean and sober
« on: December 01, 2005, 11:22:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-12-01 05:54:00, Anonymous wrote:

"All you guys took from my post was "first grade".



Can anyone explain to me why, after repeated use of "the Seed or AA tools" and having it work for a while, but then eventually ending up back in the group and essentially starting over, you guys keep trying the same thing over and over?



If something doesn't work, then it just doesn't work and logic would dictate a different approach.  It seems to be very self-defeating to try and use a methodology that, I don't know, perhaps shows that it does not work for you.



I don't know the answer, but I can see from the expereices that are recounted and repeated that whatever ya'll are doing is a process that keeps on repeating and addressing the same or variations ofthe same issues over and over again.



Believe me, I am no stranger to this.  I struggle with this quesiton daily, too.

I know we can't fix every human flaw and be perfect all the time - that would be boring. But I guess I just don't get the whole mentality.



"

Fair enough but have you read my other posts here? First in my mind that I have had nearly 17 years of sobriety out of the last 20 doesn't seem so terrible to me. You say it doesn't work yet in fact it does for a remarkable number of people. That is a fact. No it doesn't work for everybody. That is inarguable. When I slipped after 14 years of sobriety I was dealing with a son who had lost his hearing to meningitis and his mom who couldn't get over it. And I hadn't really worked the program or sought support from it for a number of years. Does that mean the program failed me? Did I need something? Well perhaps you don't really know what it?s like to be totally obsessed by something that is killing you, robbing you of your values, your family, your health, your freedom and yet not be able to stop. Yes there have been bumps in the road but the funny thing is my life works when I work the program. Keep in mind that I am talking about AA not the seed and there is a huge difference though that wasn't so true at the beginning. If you have never been in the position where you just can't go on drinking anymore yet you still can't stop then you simply can't possibly comprehend what that feels like. For me AA connects me with God and alcohol separates me from him. I have experienced miracles in my life because of that relationship with God. I experienced hell because of my relationship with alcohol. You talk about this cycle of failure seeking redemption and it just isn't the way it is. Though I can confess to sometimes being overwhelmed by the opportunities and success that sobriety brings me nobody would willfully turn away from it to return to the desperation of alcoholic drinking for some pipe dream of forgiveness. The only forgiveness I seek I already have unconditionally. Turning away from that is exactly what the insanity of alcoholism is. It isn't explainable or understandable in any truly scientific way but through experience. If you haven?t had that experience I am glad for you but don't try to boil down my feelings and my own experience which I have expressed unreservedly and un-anonymously here to some narrow viewpoint that fits the way you think things are. Instead of being attacked by you for what doesn't fit into perception of things why don't you share your own experience? At that point I'll listen and take you seriously. In fact it is only because you began to do that in your last post that I responded again, but I'm willing to back up and listen if you?re willing to share your own experience in lieu of attacking mine.

37
The Seed Discussion Forum / Memories of being clean and sober
« on: December 01, 2005, 02:43:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-11-30 23:18:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-11-30 06:29:00, Anonymous wrote:


"Why don't you attack the contents of the post as oppossed to the person who posted ?"


Perhaps because there is absolutely nothing in the post that relates in any substantive way with what any of us were saying. In fact the only thing abundantly clear is that the person posting has an appalling inability to comprehend what they read. 1st grade indeed. "

I thought it only fair that I point out that I posted the above since I would certainly like you to have an opportunity to respond to the right person. I suggest before you do though that you might wish to consult a dictionary and perhaps a thesaurus this time so that you might have at least a glimmer of a chance of actually making a point. I realize that I run the risk here of making you lose your fear of humans. Feeding you and all but  somthing tells me the risk is pretty small.

38
The Seed Discussion Forum / More Trivia
« on: November 29, 2005, 08:46:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-11-28 15:27:00, Antigen wrote:

"Don't cry for me Argentina....



Seriously, yeah, I'm over it. But still interested in getting the word out. See, the Seed wasn't the only Synanon based program for teens that Bobby DuPont bankrolled. There are dozens of them out there derived from the Seed/Straight line and some hundreds more grown out of the CEDU "therapeutic" boarding schools. TC has become the accepted model for treatment of any old thang that afflicts the parents of teenagers today. I think people need to understand what that means.



And no doubt in my mind at all that it all started with good intentions. But you know what they say about good intentions.

If you want to get together in any exclusive situation and have people love you, fine- but to hang all this desperate sociology on the idea of The Cloud-Guy who has The Big Book, who knows if you've been bad or good- and CARES about any of it- to hang it all on that, folks, is the chimpanzee part of the brain working.
--Frank Zappa, American musician

"

Yes and I saw some of the changes so I do understand some of the strong feelings people have. Just out of curiosity does anybody here know if Teen Challenge is based on the same model that these other programs were? I am curious because my best friend and love was just disapeared into that program where I can have no contact with her. She went in voluntarily and felt she needed the help they offer and I hope she is right as I wish her nothing but the peace and happiness that she seeks I just don't really want her subjected either. And yes before anyone else says it I do recognize the terrific irony of a 44 year old man whose girlfriend is in Teen Challenge. It makes me laugh a little anyway when I think of it or would if I didn't miss her so terribly. She was there for me over the last five years through thick and thin and the loss has been very difficult and painful for me.

39
The Seed Discussion Forum / Memories of being clean and sober
« on: November 29, 2005, 08:18:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-11-29 06:31:00, JaLong wrote:

"Jimmy,

Oh how I remember that clean and sober feeling I first felt in the seed. I felt happy for the first time in a very long time. This may sound corny, but I could hear the birds sing, feel and enjoy the wind blowing in my hair, and seeing and feeling the wonders of God. I am very proud of you for being clean for 38 days. i can relate. After being clean and sober for 19 yrs after the seed, I started to bend my elbow a little too much, so AA here I came. It has been almost 7 yrs for me now. I don't go any longer, and after talking to my sponsor, I realized I am not an alcholic. I use my toolbox on a daily basis. As far as step one, we are powerless over a lot of things. Ya know, people, places, and things. I just need to always keep my side of the street clean, and let others do it on their own. Congrats Jimmy.

Julie"

I don't care that Jimm'ys post is so old as I liked your response. I am relating from my first experience in the seed not my second though I found some good elements then too they were just further and fewer between. But what you said about how you began to look at and appreciate simple things in a new way was very much my experience too. I don't even remember what got me back into drugs and alcohol but I also know that if my first experience at the seed did anything it made me unable to socially do anything with mind altering substances without feeling a failure. My own alcoholism taught me about the real darkness of addiction. Because although I was seriously troubled when I came to the seed at nine and the  substances I used unquestionably were harming me I was not yet addicted in the way I now understand the term. At most I was a user of habit much like the way I smoked cigarettes I overdid it to be sure but I was not enslaved by it. Other than the Huffing I did which I thank God was relativeley short lived the things I was doing were not addictive although potetially habit forming. I definately had values before the first venture with the seed in that I would not do hard drugs. If anything became a gateway for me it was alcohol. Eventually it was under the influence of it that my values crumbled in a kind of step by step fashion. I had a "friend" who I roomed with for a time and he was a full blown junkie who on occasion convinced me to give him a ride to Miami from Ft. Laud. to score junk. At first I didn't know what he was doing as he would claim he had to pick up money owed or some such thing. But as I found out and asked if he could score some coke (which  I found acceptable) for me it wasn't long before I was asking him about the difference between how it felt to snort coke as compared to running it. Of course I had to to try it and it wasn't long before I wanted to feel whatever it was he got out of Heroin and used it for a brief while. Not in sufficient quantity and duration to get strung out though as I was fairly careful with it an didn't have the money to go to far. I would not have done those things sober and I was seldom sober. Later though when I was a little more successful because of sobriety and found myself exposed to temptation to try Hydrocodone/Apap I found it easy to fall into even though I was living alcohol free. Because I could function on this type of drug fairly well it made it all the more difficult to keep from going to far. I seemed able to do it and quite alot without losing my job, friends, family etc. in the way I had with alcohol. Because of tolerance I found myself in a position where I taking 30-35 10/325 lortabs a day. In spite of of the obvious risk to my liver I found myself quite trapped and there were several cycles of withdrawal and then restarting. Each worse than the next. It was in the throws of withdrawal and some other emotional turmoil that I again found myself drinking. In the last 20 years I have been sober 17 years with 14 years being the longest in duration and during that particular period I was clean as well. I had one slip that lasted 3 years and cost me my family and 2 more DUI's. One slip that lasted 2-1/2 months and gradually the last few slips I have had were literally 1 -2 days that left me ashamed and empty. Why so short partly because as they say AA really messes up your drinking. The other part was and this is similiar to why I gave up pot in my late teens was because i just didn't enjoy it anymore. There was no period of relief just an almost instantaneous plunge to a depp and dark place. I also have found for myself that these slips I had were almost always occuring in a time when I had slipped away from my relationship with God. I truly believe that God will bring us to a place of decision with discomfort when we slip away from him. I stopped picking up chips a long time ago becuase I found it artificial and recognized for myself that I was thankful for the peace and relationship I have with God that sobriety permitted me. I don't think that alcohol or even drugs in moderation are evil even though I was raised to think so but I do know that I have never been able to moderate in a way that would work over a long period of time. I also don't feel so terrible about myself for slipping I kind of feel it was a not so gentle guidance to return to God. If I were to have a slip every couple of years that lasted a night or two I would not feel my attempt to stay sober was wasted. My life works better when I am sober and clean. Plain and simple and I for one choose to not to let my mistakes diminish me or my experience. I do know that if I ever went back to fullblown alcoholic drinking the  results would likely be the same.  Basic destruction of everything I value. They say every alcoholic shares the hope that they could one day drink normally and i suppose I still wish that I could enjoy a bottle of wine with someone I love over a romantic dinner. Or maybe an occasional cognac or something with a close friend. The reality is though I am scared to try because everytime I have it hasn't worked. I am very curious as to how you were able to discover you wern't an alcoholic if it isn't too personal to ask. I do believe there are many in the aa of today that were no more than problem drinkers but since the real goal of the program is to develop a spiritual way of life that they find benefit from I have no problem with them being there. I try to keep my program to the basics outlined in the big book which sometimes puts me at odds with those who think that all the things that have been added to the program over the years are essential. Though I am willing to try those things I just know they are tools that are not what the heart of the program is. One thing I love about AA is that no matter how much or who I disagree with there is only one requirement for membership and that is a desire to stop drinking. Along with that they have no more or less right to be there with differing views than I have. So while they can preict my doom for having a differnce of opinion I can in my nicest manner of speaking say FU and continue on my path. I wonder also after seeing you sign as Julie if anybody remembers a girl in the program named Julie who was a truly beautiful girl with long straight dark hair. I don't remember exactly what happened but she left the program and became involved with a guy who was a very wealthy heir to his families fortune. His name was Leo Goodwin Jr. if I remember correctly who went onto commit suicide at a time when I think Julie was still with him. OD'd. I often wondered what happened to her and hoped she was OK. Even though I was probably only about 10 at that time I had a crush on her spurred in part at least by her striking beauty. I remember being sad for her.

40
Quote
On 2005-11-29 06:20:00, JaLong wrote:

"Landyh,

Thanks for the comments. It was very many years when the guy truely apologized. I had called him and told him how he had f'd up my life. He cried, I cried, and I forgave him. Yes, I'm sure we were the only ones there, except for his sister who was also on staff knew. I have some fond memories of the seed. Especially the friends I made there and still have. I have been re-united with more form this site. The way I look at it, I took what I needed from the seed to continue on with my life, and let the rest go. Yes, I needed counseling, and still do. Yet so is life. I really enjoyed going over to the GUY'S house down near Bayfront Hosp.

I feel we all go through trials in our lives, and as long as we learn something from them- that is all that matters.

Take care,

Julie"

Thank you also for your comments here. I have to say too that I did read in your posts that his apology while at the seed seemed to you to be insincere. Sounds like maybe he had reached the point of being ashamed which isn't quite the same as being sorry. It is hard for me to think of abusers as positive in anyway but I suppose if there still out there I would rather mine to have found there own healing. At the very least that they don't continue the same patterns of abuse to this day. I am so glad that you were able to confront at least one of your abusers though it is tough for me to sympathize with the fate of the other 4 guys.
Sounds like you found some healing there. I'm working on it. Cheers!

41
Quote
On 2005-09-22 15:47:00, Antigen wrote:

"Well how come the Seed, Straight and the other spin offs are the only ones to do this? Why don't they do strip searches in hospital settings? Surely they have the same desire to keep drugs away from their patients, don't they?



So... one time out of how many thousands of kids humiliated? And you sincerely think that's justified?



That's the problem here, I think. You guys are just obsessed w/ drugs the way the puritans were obsessed w/ witchcraft. Very like that, in fact.

 

The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
--John Adams, U.S. President


"

Ginger,
One time? As i wrote elsewhere I was strip searched on my second time at the Seed. It took five guys to do it. I was 12 years old and if anyone got hurt physically it was the guys doing the search. I had a bag of weed in my underwear. John is on the money that this started because people did try to bring stuff in.  As to not being strip searched in county jails that is simply not true. I know this for a fact from personal experience. My sister and I talked this weekend  about our experience at the seed and we were in complete agreement that niether one of us ever saw anyone purposely hurt physically or even accidentally. Again being strip searched was somewhat traumatic  but I made it the difficult situation it was. Given the way I fought they would have had to go out of there way to keep from hurting me. I was hanging from the toilet partitions trying my best to kick the shit of them. Yet they did no more than restrain me. On the subject of JaLong I thing it is horrible that you had to endure facing your abuser as you did. But is there some implication that this was somehow the kind of thing the seed did to help with there conditioning efforts. I would imagine that you and your abuser were the only people who knew what happened. Please JaLong my intent is not at all to minimize your trauma as I had my own I understand the deep wounds that accompany it. But does anybody wonder where this rapist made the changes in his life that made him repentent? Is there nothing positive in that? I have to keep repeating apparently that those of you that see the seed in a totally negative light are just as blindly deluded as those who see it as a panacea. Can't we acknowlege that it was a little of both and call it a day.   [ This Message was edited by: landyh on 2005-11-28 23:10 ]

42
The Seed Discussion Forum / Dear Art,
« on: November 29, 2005, 12:46:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-11-28 15:42:00, Antigen wrote:

"Landy, thanks.



Basically, I don't believe much of what Art said about anything because so much of it turned out to be made up out of whole cloth. He's not a reliable person. He's a known liard. That's all. And, not to put too fine a point on it, but AA and the Seed/Straight programs have a lot in common. For one thing, the process of group intros repeated over and over very often results in the story growing each time in the telling.



I'm really glad for you that you never did tell all to Group. Your instinct was probably right on the mark there. It's one thing to have the strokes and adulation of Group when they think that's the right thing to do. But to trust them w/ the really sensitive stuff? Man, no way! They could turn on you and throw it up in your face just as quick and twice as hard. You probably dodged a bullet there. And I can almost guarantee that whatever troubles you had later were probably not due to your not more fully laying yourself open to them.



All good intentions aside, there's risk in divulging private sensitive information even to someone you know and trust or who's bound by legal confidentiality laws. But to lay yourself wide open before a group of (forgive me but) suggestible teenagers who think they're on a mission from God? No, you made the right call there, my friend.

Guard with jealous attention the public Liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that Jewel. Unfortunately, Nothing will Preserve it but downright Force. Whenever you Give Up that Force, you are ruined.....The Great Object is that every man be armed.....Everyone who is able may have a gun.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1888952229/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>- Patrick Henry


"

Your quite welcome Ginger.
You are right about being careful about saying certain things. Just for the record I wasn't talking about exposing this stuff to the group. There were a couple of people that talked to me indidvidually and suspected something deeper was bothering me but I was able to keep up a strong enough front that they didn't put undue pressure on me but did leave the door open to talk to them. These are people that left when things started to change. They just wanted to help and I knew that even then. Art was one of the people who gave me the chance to talk to him privately. I can only speculate about what changed things and even him but the man I knew then was compassionate and kind  to the furthest degree at least in relation to me. Maybe it was only because I was a child but just maybe that is who he was at the time. I believe it was the later and I don't think any of us will ever truly know. It was made clear that it was between him and I. I just couldn't. I think in the circumstances I'm describing talking would have been productive. Things were really so different. As for now and my wiliingness to talk freely here... that I do for me. It took me a long time to talk about it with anybody and longer still the continuing battle to not feel ashamed or at fault. Talking opening about it helps reinforce for me that it was not my fault and now in spite of a few "insecurites" :wink: I have grown to a place now where I could dismiss anybody who wants to say differently for the idiots they would have to be. In AA though I have never spoke about this to the group, only my sponsor and few select individuals know. I might add it was in aa that I finally found the courage to talk about it and it was because someone had the adacity to talk about his own issues in front of the group. I believe that happened for a reason. He was the first person I was ever able to talk to about it. It has helped and gotten better  little by little ever since. Of course I used to think I was alone but over time I've come to learn that many of us who have real problems with substance abuse are individuals who were damaged in some significant way.  As for later in the Seed there was no opportunity for the kind of one on one discussions I refered too above. And having once felt the pain of being falsely accused of using by Darlene I have give merit to your concerns. Early on for whatever reason I never saw or experienced this kind of stupidity.    
cheers

43
The Seed Discussion Forum / Dear Art,
« on: November 28, 2005, 06:21:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-11-28 12:20:00, Antigen wrote:

"Why is it hard for me to believe Art? Landy, because Art lied a lot. A WHOLE lot. He had both of my parents convinced that all the teenagers (including us) were druggies and that he had the 99% successful, only cure for it. I bet he believed it, too. Still wasn't true.

It sucks when decent, hardworking people get screwed over like that. Because that means pricks like us don?t stand a chance.
 


http://www.moderndrunkardmagazine.com' target='_new'>Jim S. watching the devastation of the recent tsunami on the television at JR?s


"

I just don't remember it that way. Nor do I think it is that black and white. I honestly don't know if Art's story is 100% accurate but I just think that blind rejection is just as dangerous as your experiences that feed it. It seems that anybody on this forum who happens to be anti-seed paints with as broad a brush as Art did in one sided dedication to the idea that anybody who found i iota of peace in the program is simply deluded by there conditioning. When we try to break every opposing opinion down into neet little categories of cultic conditioning and coercieve treatment all I see is a glass house of no more structural integrity than Art or the Seed itself. Can I reconcile the damage you experienced by simply accepting what I believed to be Art's good intentions. Of course not. Not when I hurt for you as I do. Am I so simple as to believe that Art's belief that he was speaking the truth as you say completely justify the end results you lived. Absolutely not but I also see that he had little choice but to live in those convictions because he didn't see anything else. I think we can agree that he did believe in what he was doing and that his drive was motivated by an almost blind obeyance to those beliefs. All I am saying is that those of us who are tempted to boil this down to such a simple level on either side of the issue are no better or even different than he was. And nobody seems to offer anything better in the way of a solution. i suppose my understanding of Art's disrust of the Psychological community is just another example of how brainwashed and conditioned I was. It couldn't perhaps be the result of how they failed my mother, failed me with there inkblots and questions.  Gave me the gold seal of the psychological communtity because I knew how to answer the questions correctly. Sent me on my suffering way without even the recognition of how severely I had been destroyed by my experience. Anecdotal surely but when I went to the Seed they at least could see something was wrong, could at least see elements of the truth that were me. That I didn't reveal the full depth of my own problems was not for lack of effort on there part because on some level (perhaps like Art) I had convinced myself of a truth of my own making. I haven't heard anybody offer a relevant suggestion of any better solution than he offered and I am surely convinced that if there was one it didn't exist in the psychological community in any more than in islolated instances. Unless you want to count the pyschiatrist who shared my moms migaines, who solved his own pain through sleeping with his patients and then suicide and my moms's  with an addiction to Talwin that nearly cost her arms to the gangrene that it caused. Ginger you know that I have tremendous respect for the fact that you have responded to my posts with a respect and even maybe acceptance of the possibility that  my view is shaped by a truth that exisited at least for a time. In this light much of what I am saying here is not entirely directed at you. More to a theme I see forming that's seeks to fit my experience into some little box that is a one size fits all model no less dangerous than that of Seed itself. I believe that the issues are much more complicated than that. If you have rooted your convictions firmly on one side or the other of the issues we speak here about then you have sacrificed any chance of finding the truth we proclaim to seek. I am convicted of nothing here in any real way. I have simply my experience to proclaim for you to make of what you will. Those who see nothing good or nothing bad about what the seed was and what it became are suffering from their own conditioning in just as real a way as The Seed itself. I beleive the truth lies neither on one side or the other but somewhere in between. If we can listen to each other and guard ourselves from the prison of our own preconceptions we may have some sort of chance at finding at least a piece of that truth.

44
The Seed Discussion Forum / More Trivia
« on: November 28, 2005, 04:45:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-11-26 10:05:00, Antigen wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-11-24 08:53:00, Anonymous wrote:




Yeah, I think maybe to a degree. I think maybe there's a big difference between how people perceive the whole experience based on whether they really want and need help or not. For you? Telling the truth may have fit the Program; it was just what they wanted to hear. For me? I had to keep it all bottled up and carefully hidden. Was I depressed and careless? Oh yeah! Why? Because I was trying to impress druggiefriends who always treated me badly and stuff?  :rofl:



Well, that's what I had to say. But it never had been true. I didn't HAVE any friends, damne it! Except the other jr Seedling, who was a boy 4 years younger than me. When I got to be about 12 or 13, I was embarrased to be seen w/ him, so I quit hanging out with even him. I was just starting to make a couple of real friends. It just happens that they sampled the pharmacopia.  That was way on the periffery, nothing like a central issue. The reasons why we were starting to be friends were things like speaking up for me when the cheerleaders were especially cruel to me. Or the one classmate, student government officer, cheerleader and all, who risked her political currency by stating that I had been right and she wasn't going to rat me out for finally defending myself against another persistant bully in the locker room.



Real stuff. The real stuff that I needed. But I couldn't let my mother find out I had friends at all because... well, like any good DA can indict a ham sandwich, all teenagers were suspect. And we just don't want to go there, do we? Since my Bible teacher was my pastor and my science teacher, part time band instructor and tennis coach was my deacon and sunday school teacher, I couldn't have friends or it would get back to her.



THAT is why I was so fucking depressed! I don't know what would have happened in the early Seed if I had sat voluntarily on front row for three days then stood up and said "Know what? This isn't for me. I have no idea what you fucked up people are talking about." and walked away. In the 2nd generation Seed that I found myself in 10 years later, there would have been violence. So I had to lie and call it Honesty. Just like most of the rest of us did.



I can't imagine that, at your tender age and given the kind of trauma you'd been through, that the Program dogma didn't maybe unduely influence your thinking. But I don't think you're out to coerce anyone to agree with you or otherwise do any harm with it. So I really don't have a problem with it. I do have an interest, though. So just let me know if I come off as disrespectful or mean spirited. I'm really not. But I am fascinated w/ this whole story. See, I can't get family history out of my family. That's partly due to their Victorian roots on one side and raw acrimony on the other. But a big part of it is that I'm an apostate to Program culture while they're all either militant Stepcraft practitioners or they're humoring the others in the name of peace. In a big way, this IS my family history.



I was born a heretic. I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.

--Susan B. Anthony, U.S. reformer and suffragist





_________________

Drug war POW

Straight, Sarasota

`80 - `82"

I don't really know what to say Antigen. I find your post to be heartbreaking. I know myself that while my experiences are terrible the worst of them came from forces outside of my family. So I had that no matter what even if it wasn't perfect. I am sorry you didn't. Do I find your posts to be mean spirited? Not in the least. I mean do I see anger in them? Yes! But not at all as directed  towards me. The Seed was a safe place for me the 1st time and I needed everyone of those "luvyas". It was a net gain for me. Because I didn't believe anybody would really accept what I really thought I was inside I never really could tell anybody. I wish I could have. I believe it kept me from getting better. I don't blame them for not being aware enough to know. Because it seems a few knew, tried to reach my hurt and I wouldn't let them. Reading about your own pain brings out my compassion, my own pain, breaks me inside and out. We were both robbed of something but in different ways. But do you see a difference in that my own trauma was from a source whose motives were to wound maybe to make me experience there own trauma's in some way. They were ill intentioned, sick, even evil. Is there no comfort in the motives that created your own pain. Seems to me that though misguided the intentions were of a different source than that of my own pain. I don't speak here to minimize your feelings because I think I grasp at least to an extent there depth. For Gods's sake i cried for you when I read this. But if peace may be found in forgiveness then and I'm not telling you it is but that it might begin there does not the intent of those who hurt you at least crack open the gateway to that path. Wherin do I find my own peace surely my own options are different. I find some in the exploration of our shared though different pain. I  thank you for that. I find myself shaken by your message to wish for your healing and no less my own. One thing that is clear to me is that the time has come for all of us to seek and find our own "answer" however and wherever we can. I just happen to belive (not know)that surely it lies somewhere in a distance beyond blame.

45
The Seed Discussion Forum / Dear Art,
« on: November 28, 2005, 02:37:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-11-26 10:21:00, Antigen wrote:

"Honestly, I don't buy the story. Art had a habit of exagerating; specifically, his stories changed over time to better please the audience.



I think maybe he got kicked out from wherever he was staying for being an obnoxious drunk, woke up in his car and that became the legend of Art's stint as a homeless skidrow drunk.



But I'm just guessing. I'd have to hear from someone who knew him when. Oh, and come to think of it, what ever happened to anyone and everyone who knew Art before he ascended to near godhood? How come none of his family or friends, even AA buddies, were a part of his life when we knew him? Strange, don'tya' think?

Web pages are like babies -- creation involves a level of enthusiasm that does not necessarily carry over into maintenance.
--Joe Chew


"

Must we disrust all? My own experience with alcohol led me very close to its furthest depths and very quickly. There is no question that I am aware of as to Art's Alcoholism. Why is it hard to believe that he experienced some of the worst of that world. What some who are not involved in AA may not realize is that in early AA most of the members were typically serious drunks. Not like today with many coming in before things get to bad. He almost had to be in that class of "low bottom" drunks just to have gotten there. I know enough drunks to know that we seldom have need to exagerate our experiences to make them bad enough. They already are. Of course things can be skewed by personal perspective but I have no reason to think that Art had to stretch his story to make it worse do you?

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