Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: GregFL on January 29, 2005, 03:15:00 PM
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When I was in the seed, you were escorted around as a newcomer by an oldcomer that was physically larger than you. If you were a boy, another boy put his arm around your shoulder and squeezed you in. The more compliant you were, the less hard the squeeze. If you were a misbehavior, the other kid would be real large and the grip real tight. Girls held the hands of newcomer girls.
In later years, the newer seed rippoff programs like Straight started Holding kids by the back of the belt, obstensably to get around the sexual ennuendo of girls holding hands and boys with arms around each other. This became known as "beltlooping" the newcomer. The method was different but the intention and result was the same.
My question...When did the seed stop this practice, if ever?
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The practice did not exist in the 90's. The newcomer simply went back to the bathrrom by temselves. Remember we were back on Andrew's inside the building, which was a lot smaller space for people to move around by themselves. AS I have stated before, there were were aspects of the program that were more relaxed. . .staff was getting older. . .people were more chilled out...they seemed to have given up on the intensity of the program, the yelling and such, although the authoritarian figures were still present. . .it was for the most part run part time and after the newcomer was there for about 3 weeeks, from 9-4, the group including staff would only stay from about 9-12:00, and the newby got a job, lived in a home with the guys or girls. . .but no no arms around each other, except the ritual of singing jingle bells.
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I cant believe the hours were 9-4. That is mucho different from when I was in 10-10 seven days a week. I dont really know about the arm around the shoulder thing, when I left Cleveland in 77 that was still going on. I remember John *** lived in the upstairs of a house and when he brought newcomers over he would walk them with his arm around them. The downstairs neighbors thought he was gay but he was too big to for them to say anything
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After about 1990, the hours were 9 -4. IT was fairly realxed in the group. I mean, every once in a while if someone needed to hear the "truth," it woulg get a little "in your face," but certainly nothing like twhat the 70's generation describes. Also, after a few weeks of the newcomer being on the front row, the hours were 9-12 since the staff had other businesses that they ran after their part-time seed job. I believe that the stagg also did not collect a salary for several of the last years, but then at the end were compensated for what theywere owed towards the end. It was pretty much of a part-time semi-volunteer situation the final years. We would, I remember, play tennis with the newcomer after 12:oo, graduates would take turn picking them up if they could get the afternnon off from work.
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My god,playing tennis with the newcomer at noon?
Who woulda thought? When I was in, at noon you had spent two hours and were now going to get a wet peanut butter sandwich and a small dixie cup of cool-aide. Then right back at it for 10 more hours with only a few breaks.
The seed really did change into something totally different.
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In 70 when I was there I don't remember the practice of being taken to the bathroom. I don't believe that was practiced at that time. Although you were watched. We had Jiffy Johns lined up back behind the house. :em:
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The house? Are you saying 1970?
Sorry, but you need to be more clear. In 73, we had bathroom monitors ( I know, I was one) and NO NEWCOMER could walk ANYWHERE without the arm around them. It was a "priviledge" that had to be "earned" by obtaining "going home" status.
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Ditto on that one.
In '73 when I was there, I had my hand held every time I went to the bathroom. Fortunately, I didn't get enough to eat or drink so I didn't have to go much.
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Don't forget exhausted from no sleep and disoriented from lack of contract with the outside world and fear of confrontation.
It really was an unpleasant shock to a 14 year old. I cannot even imagine the horror of putting my 15 year old precious daughter thru anything remotely resembling what I went thru.
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You know I have no memory what so ever of going to the bathroom...why???
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I don't know fran. But I can tell you this, in 1973 my bladder was almost full. I remember going days without bowel movements, as does my sister. You had to ask junior staff to go and they always said no the first couple times you asked, then after being walked over you had to disclose what you were going to do, it was written down and then you were watched by an oldcomer while you went.
The whole thing was highly suspect in my best estimation.
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In Straight, 1980, they were beltlooping girls too.
Fran, don't worry about holes in your memory of things. It's true that accute trauma can make you ecclipse whole episodes. But, after a short while, you get used to the bathroom routine. That wouldn't explain it. It's more likely that you don't remember a bunch of things because you were not allowed to talk about it or even reference the responses of the people around you for social proof.
If you don't get affirmation, then it's like it never happened. That's how we're designed to operate. That's why all the rigid rules about communication, outside contact, cliquing (not CLICKING, damn it!) and "getting into your head" (thinking).
No unauthorized interpretation! They could have shortened rules rap and given us much needed sleep by condensing a half dozen or so rules into that brief statement. But it only "works" if you don't understand the process.
I have never seen the slightest scientific proof of the religious theories of heaven and hell, of future life for individuals, or of a personal God.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor
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Clear how's this for Clear, In 1970 I don't believe most kids there were escorted to the Jiffy Johns. I wasn't ever!!!!
I don't ever remember anyone ever touching me for any reason.
Ya know, I don't believe Art and Co. had a book they went by. If a situation warrented a change in policy that's the direction they went in. Then if there was pressure to change it they would. There was no master plan. Art found a niche in the Seed programme and he milked it I think for some of his own good. Didn't he obtain a Limo at some point? I don't think he had a junker car when I went there.. Love Love....
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It is also suspect that the seed started out one way, then wammo, got a cool million from Dupont, a rabid synanon supporter, became like the synanon for a couple years, then slowly went back to its original roots ( a goofy creepy cult).
I really would like to solve this puzzle....
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That's what I'm saying Greg. There was no Master Plan. I don't know what the synanon belief has to do with anything Art implemented except maybe he took parts of it he learned somewhere and used it in the Seed programme. As he took parts from AA, and then one day he used the pink toilet and bam it was an intense impact. Then from what I understand later-on they used the toilet seat around the neck because maybe sitting a young person on a pink toilet with their pants down around their ankles was looked at as inappropriate. Like Ten till Ten, that was important to the Attitude Adjustments that needed to occur. Sitting on the wooden benches. Some of those things were still implemented till the end because they weren't inappropriate. :grin:
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I was there in '71 off and on til about '75. I don't recall being escorted to the bathroom. I think they may have pointed, and I remembered where it was the next time. I do recall those sandwiches though. PJ, and sometimes bologna and mayo. I still don't care for bologna, and that Jim Jones thing kinda ruined Koolaid for me.
And now it's time for.... ::bigsmilebounce:: Seed Limo Trivia! ::drummer:: The limo was previously owned by Jackie Gleason. I think it was donated. It was acquired for security reasons after Art had received some death threats from drug dealers. (The Seed was hurting their business) Art also had a nice sailboat/yacht which he had prior to The Seed, and an OUTSTANDING stereo system. Surround sound, with HUGE speakers. He took a few of us over to hear some big band music the way he used to hear it as a comic...right in the middle of it all. He had made his money as a standup comic, and had a few small acting roles as well in his previous life.
Probably my fondest musical memory was when a few other Seedlings and I went to Disney World. We were in the cafeteria at 'Tomorrow Land', (I think that's what it is/was called) I heard some familiar music, and all of a sudden, the stage started rising, and out of the floor came Count Basie and his Orchestra! (one of my favorites) and I had no idea they were even playing there! I treasure that memory.
In the early '70's, the only period of time I'm sure about, The Seed would NOT accept Federal funding, because they didn't want to get sucked into the gub'mint system. For the most part, the Federal programs were ineffective, and Art knew if he accepted funding, there would be strings attached.
:nworthy:
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Welcome back (tom?) to Ging's brother.
Early 70s was when art was raking in all the major federal funding dough..only taking this moral highround position That he could do it without their influence and "strings" when they required him to have "consent forms" signed indicating that the inductee was submitting to experimental treatment voluntarily. so your memory isn't really correct there.
Also, Art CLAIMED to have made his money as a standup comedian professing he could make all the money he needed doing so. The St Pete times actually had the savey to check that claim out, went down and interviewed the miami playboy club and according to them discovered he was only a part time fill in and only was making about 3 grand a year being a comic. Perhaps Another "honesty is the most important rule" breach by the head honcho?
Many people don't remember the bathroom thing..but I assure you it was integral to the program at all locations..bathroom monitors and the whole shebang..during the time you were there. I know because one of my fondest memories of the seed was being bathroom monitor..preferring to smell shit instead of participating in rap.
I want to join you wishing Ginger a happy birthday. Welcome back again!
Where the hell you been?
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On 2005-01-30 10:30:00, Anonymous . It was acquired for security reasons after Art had received some death threats from drug dealers.
:wave: LORTY, LORTY, ANTIGEN IS 40! (tomorrow) Happy Birthday, Sis! :nworthy: "
A dubious claim at best. Sure people would call the seed with bomb threats and so forth but I don't think anything as ominous as "drug dealers getting their business harmed" was really a serious threat.
I think he just wanted to be escorted around by a black guy...a la "driving Mrs. Daisy" style.
:grin:
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Thanks for the well wishes, guys.
I condemn false prophets, I condemn the effort to take away the power of rational decision, to drain people of their free will--and a hell of a lot of money in the bargain. Religions vary in their degree of idiocy, but I reject them all. For most people, religion is nothing more than a substitute for a malfunctioning brain.
--Gene Roddenberry, Creator of Star Trek
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On 2005-01-30 08:11:00, GregFL wrote:
"It is also suspect that the seed started out one way, then wammo, got a cool million from Dupont, a rabid synanon supporter, became like the synanon for a couple years, then slowly went back to its original roots ( a goofy creepy cult).
I really would like to solve this puzzle....
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I'm getting pretty well convinced that that's it. Dupont has stayed involved w/ Straight and the Semblers' cronnies to this day. Outside of Program circles, DuPont is known as Dr. Piss for his zealot advocacy of drug screening (which,in effect, is cannabis screening).
And the money and nepotism continues to flow to those programs that are most like Synanon. Daytop is one. Phoenix House is another. Anyone heard anything about Darryl Strawberry lately? I bet he's pretty thoroughly affected by now.
And, btw, I want to thank you all (all of you) once again for dropping in here and helping to fill in some of the blanks. I'm also much relieved to know that those of you who stayed involved for many years weren't subjected to the level of intensity and hostility that we who fell under the Synanon influenced program did for shorter spans. I honestly was worried about ya'll, ya' know? I'm glad it wasn't even 1/10th as bad as I had thought.
In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a trade unionist. Then they came for Catholics, and I didn?t speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."
--Protestant minister Martin Neimoller
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Yeah, but along with Dupont came these techniques. Who was responsible? Who imparted all these techniques to the group? Who taught Art?
John Underwood, calling John Underwood....I have some questions for you :grin:
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In 76 and 77 all newcomers still had to be escorted to the bathroom, though we weren't watched in the bathroom. I remember how glad I was when I got to go alone. Another wonderful perk / carrot for conforming and being a good little seedling.
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Greg, Greg, Greg. JU went through the program just like everyone else. You seem to still be stuck on this point. Sorry Pal - there is no conection between JU and Synonon I repeat no conection. I am sure of it. Please move on here.
You are making me loose more hair than I already have lost over this one. Please trust me. :tup:
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I came in 4/72 never saw a pink toilet. I did however hear rumors of one though. :eek:
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Greg, Dupont did not = techniques. I was around long before any grant was given and "techniques" were the same. Some minor adjustments were made here and there but thats about it. He wanted to help kids. He lived by the rules.
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And what I mean by adjustments = if something didn't work or was a little harsh it was stopped.
He obviously couldn't be everywhere and see everything.
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On 2005-01-30 12:11:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
"Greg, Greg, Greg. JU went through the program just like everyone else.
But who, other than you, remembers him being in group?
Look, ya gotta understand that a LOT of what we were told was total bullshit.
You probably read that nice note from my brother. (and, btw, I'm not ignoring you, Thom, I'm just a little surprised to hear from you and trying to make a thoughtful response, privately, later)
I remember very well Art's frequent rants about government funding and shrinks that don't know anything. I even remember the grown ups debating the pros and cons of government funding in the parking lot while we were all waiting for either permission to enter the open meeting room or for Group to be dismissed afterward (sometimes, it was hours!) And I remember hearing and fully believing (why wouldn't we?) that Art never accepted any public funding.
But I've seen copies of the grant and reference to it in reports by various very credible newspapers.
Guess what, that whole song and dance was made up out of whole cloth, like much of the rest of the Barker legend.
So just that former Seedlings believe that JU did his time on front row doesn't even approach the level of credible gossip.
Our family was around just about from the beginning. I remember John as a most intimidating presence on staff. But I don't ever remember him on front row. Maybe somebody does. Till they come forward, it's just another unanswered question.
Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause.
--George Washington, Revolutionary War General and U.S. President
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Ft. Lauderdale: So you were at the seed before the grant? Wasn't that near the very beginning? If you are so sure about John going thru the program...does this mean you were witness to this? If so, just tell us. (I don't think there's any basis for concerns over breaking his anonymity since the seed is caput and everyone already knows who we are speaking of.)
Were you actively involved with the seed in the later years as well? (I know you moved to atlanta for awhile).
BTW, I think you should understand the basis for so many wild & varied theories about the connections to synanon and speculations associated with the inner workings of the seed. IMO, this stems from the secretive nature of the seed itself. What goes on here, stays here. No talking behind someone's back....and just the general lack of information given to the group as exemplified by that catch-all answer: "It's not important." Barring libby or art writing a tell-all book, there are many questions it seems we alumni will never know for sure. I doubt staff even knew all of this. Art probably figured it wasn't important for them to know.
I agree with you, antigen and others...art had good intentions and wanted to help kids. Of course, we have to remember what is said about the road to hell's source of pavement too. In some ways, art may have been a victim of his own creation. I'm not sure I could maintain a sense of perspective while being the object of veneration the way he was either. I imagine that it would be easy to finally accept that you really were special and have perfect awareness or whatever miraculous qualities people keep insisting upon. Lots of leaders, preachers and gurus fall prey to this sort of adoration.
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see, here is the thing. Synanon style techniques existed from the beginning. The toilet seat around the neck, for example. Then along comes Dupon in early 73 with a million bucks..which was a lot of money back then. ALl of a sudden, the seed is a lockdown revolving door synanon. A short time later, the federal funds dry up, and the seed starts loosening up.
No one has explained this. In 73, the seed had a mean edge to it. You couldn't even let your back hit the seat or you got knuckles in the back and/or come down on. It was exhausting.
John may or may not be the key to this, but I sure would like to hear it from him. I have a vague memory of a rap where he said something to the affect that we didn't even know where all this came from and then he mentioned a name of another place and talked about how much harder and how the seed had so much love....it escapes me to this day.
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It had to be a methadone clinic. I lived with JU for about 1 & 1/2 years. No I was not around when he came in but I spoke to others that were definatly there and not staff. :exclaim:
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Ues, but did you ever hear it from someone who wouldn't be mortified at the thought of contradicting the official story?
If you ask the Government for the right to assemble you deserve to be told no .
--Jim Lesczynski, Manhattan LP chair, on "unorganized" gathering @ Central Park
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Marshall- He does have to this day a keen sense of awareness of others and thats just the truth not much gets by him and he's usually right on the money. Yes I did live in Atlanta for just under a year in 78-79 and I did live away from the Seed totally for 5 yrs aprox 85-90 and I was somewhat involved till the end.
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Ft. Lauderdale were you in in 1970?
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Thanks for the reply, FL. I remember john and other staff mentioning other programs too....but this was always in a critical, dismissive way. I've had discussions with other oldtimers regarding art's awareness or lack thereof. There's little point in debating such a thing however, since those who are clearly pro-seed always seem to fall on one side (he is the most aware person I've met, etc.) while those critical of the seed fall on the other side. (that he was an egomaniac, etc.) It's similar to the divide amongst democrats and republicans regarding GW Bush. Whether or not you think he's a great president or a dumbass depends mostly upon party affiliation.
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Not a methadone clinic Ft Laud. He would say things to the affect of (and he would always say "okay" at the end of the sentence) "you don't know where all this comes from" and things to that nature.
It is a mystery. Ft Lauderdale, call art and tell him to give us an online interview. I think we would all be respectfull, and we can arrange it thru Yahoo messenger, and you can go assist him in typing!
:idea:
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Antigen- yes the people I spoke with arn't zombies if thats what you mean. Hey to tell you the truth I happen to be a pretty outspoken(& not bad looking ha ha)person. I've had major disagreements through out the years. I'm not a brainwashed hero worshipor. Just a bad speller.
:scared: :grin:
Greg, sorry that would never happen :idea:
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On 2005-01-31 05:20:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
Greg, sorry that would never happen :idea: "
Why? We are after all graduates of his program. You would think he would at least answer a few questions, and we could be respectfull and cognizant of the fact that he is sick and elderly.
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i agree. what is so "top secret" about discussing the program and its history . . . the big problem of not being totally open is that it gives people the impression that there is something to hide
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Sorry - Echothis, I was in Ft. Lauderdale going to Plantation High School. :grin:
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I went on the program in April of 72. (God I,m old) :grin:
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In 74 I remember some guy getting pulled out of the bathroom because he had tried to hang himself around the pipes on the ceiling in the stall. Goes to show what happened in Red China so many years ago. They had to put bobbed-wire fences from the parks because people we're hanging themselves from the trees.This guy hadn't even been stood up yet and was in high school. They got him out. He got out alive.
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Hey... Ft Laud
Aren't we all??
By the way is today Antigen's birthday if so
Happy Birthday!!!!
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I just wrote a whole bunch of stuff and lost it....... I'll try again.
When I was at the Seed my 1st two weeks John Underwood and Libby were staff members and there was a couple others but I don't remember them.
There was alot of talk about methadone clinic's and how much better the seed was because it was cold turkey. We weren't able to take medications unless it was approved by Art and Co. I was under the impression John was from a methadone clinic but if he went thru the seed programme it was never said during the time i was there. The same for Libby.
Art would come out in the mornings before lunch and talk alot about himself and where the seed came from.. how they outgrew a house in Miami and came to Ft. Lauderdale to that present house
and Libby Libby Libby.... I pretty much tuned that crap out cause I never thought she was anything special.
Art had some kind of scam going with High School counselors at that time. Pompano Beach High counselor a woman I forget her name but she was really a nice person, just alittle misguided. She was getting kids in the Seed left and right. The buzz word at that time was Attitude Adjustment.
There was a Pink Toilet. It was heavy and a couple of guys would carry it out from where it was stored. They would force you to sit on it. Sometimes things would get violent during this.
I'm tired of thinking. Good by....
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and Libby Libby Libby....
That reminds me...for a very short time we sung a song to libby, and it went
"awwhuenn you got LIBBY LIBBY LIBBY...In your STABLE STABLE STABLE.."
Song to the tune of a Libby's peas commercial.
What a stretch. To the genius that thought that one up, take a bow. :grin: :grin:
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You know, we never had "pink toilet" therapy in St Pete. cleveland had a boxing ring, and we didn't have that either.
St pete had extreme motivating, where the guys would get so worked up "motivating to be called on" they would snap and wave their arm so violently they would almost fall out of the chair. It morphed into a really weird thing after the seed during the straight era and was non voluntary, and is practiced to this day in the offshoot programs.
my point is, every location was a tad different. Anyone from Lauderdale or cleveland remember bizzare "motivating" to be called on?
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On 2005-01-31 18:17:00, GregFL wrote:
"You know, we never had "pink toilet" therapy in St Pete. cleveland had a boxing ring, and we didn't have that either.
St pete had extreme motivating, where the guys would get so worked up "motivating to be called on" they would snap and wave their arm so violently they would almost fall out of the chair. It morphed into a really weird thing after the seed during the straight era and was non voluntary, and is practiced to this day in the offshoot programs.
my point is, every location was a tad different. Anyone from Lauderdale or cleveland remember bizzare "motivating" to be called on? "
The motivating at Straight was extremely bizarre. A lot of survivors I know have shoulder problems to this day. People would be up out of their chairs (one foot held in place under the chair as to not be accused of trying to run) their entire bodies motivating. It wasn't fun to be in a "bust ass rap". 300 kids locked in the carpet room, forced to wear jackets, the heat turned all the way up...it was brutal!!!Truth resides in every human heart, and one has to search for it there, and to be guided by truth as one sees it. But no one has a right to coerce others to act according to his own view of truth.
--Mohandas K. Gandhi
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Fran- I feel alot older at 50 than 45. Your still a baby to me. ::bigsmilebounce::
(sometimes a little brown nosing goes a long way.)
Antigen Happy Birthday! ::birthday:: ::birthday:: ::drummer:: ::rocker::
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Hey, you getting gamey with my "Chick" Fran?
:flame: :flame:
er, I mean.... :grin:
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I got permission 3 days in advance :grin:
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Thanks ya'll!
Our nada who art in nada, nada be thy name. Thy kingdom nada, thy will be nada as it is in nada. Give us this nada our daily nada and nada us our nada as we nada our nadas and nada us into nada but deliver us from nada; pues nada. Hail nothing full of nothing, nothing is with thee.
--Ernest Hemingway, American author
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Cool it down boys!!! :cool: :cool:
You're playing games with my head... :wink: :wink: [ This Message was edited by: Fran on 2005-02-01 18:11 ]
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[ This Message was edited by: AnonAnon on 2005-03-15 07:47 ]
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On 2005-01-29 22:53:00, Fran wrote:
"You know I have no memory what so ever of going to the bathroom...why???"
Better check your pants, Fran :eek:
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Hmmmmmm AnonAnon a sence of humor. :grin:
do you have anything to add????????????
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no....that's about it, a sence of humor.
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Wet peanut butter sandwiches donated by the parents to a non-profit organization and you coule never got to the bathroom withought your hand being held...o.k. I' a girl.........or was...lol. 10 hours in the chair no less 10. I will never forget when I yried to sneak a fart and it resonated throughout the whole room. I thought I would die.......heheehe I This is great I can't believe I found this:)Sometimes over the years I have missed and wondered about the people I loved so much. We were just kids!
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dude ju wasn't the teacher. in fact,he didn't go on to do to much of anything.
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JU?
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John Underwood.
Rose to his top level at the Seed? Boy, were our adorations misplaced.
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He left around 1976 and never came back :wave:
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I graduated the program in 77 and John U. was still there on senior staff. I think he had either just married or was about to marry a gal named pam. When did he leave? Someone here posted that he made a career of selling tennis courts. Ft. Lauderdale, you should remember...did john leave and never return? Did he and pam get married?
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Tune in again tomorrow for the next exciting installment of JU, Synanon Guru
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Married and divorced had 3 sons. Probably did leave in 77.
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Married and divorced had 3 sons. Probably did leave in 77.
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I doubt he was married for more than 5 or so years.
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where is he now?
Sure would like to chat with him
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Got me, havn't seen him in years.
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That was Bob Rocke(sp) & his brother Mike, they were both Staff in St Pete and I think I still have a business card around somewhere (I am such a pack-rat) it was some sort of "soft-court" process, that must have been around 75-76'
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A forgotten memory--Bob and Mike Rocke-one was a redhead, seemed like nice guys,,,were they???
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Hi Shelly -
Yup, Bob was the red-head and Mike the younger brother, dark black hair. Both of them were very good guys, Bob was staff when I was in the program and later after I graduated he left staff and hung out at the "guys" apartment, Ken H, Dana D, Max H, Dan H,. It was kind of a culture shock for me to suddenly have a more personal relationship with this guy that I had way up on that staff pedestal. It was a good thing for me to see a former staffer acting "normal" or what I thought was normal. Good to hear from you, love you guys,
Chris Lewis
Seed 74 -75
AA 91- ...
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I had forgotten these names...The black headed one followed me in the bathroom and attempted to do my ¨strip¨ intake, and I called him a faggot and refused. Later they made me and I pulled down my pants and said ¨does this make you happy¨
That was good for laughs a few days later when they stood me up and made me tell my intake story.