Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => News Items => Topic started by: Whooter on December 27, 2010, 12:13:57 PM
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This thread is intended to capture any lastest news articles pertaining to the Troubled Teens Industry, which comes across peoples desk.
Auldern And Stone Mountain
Dance Together In A
Winter Wonderland
December 20, 2010
Auldern Academy and Stone Mountain School have joined forces to create a Winter Wonderland dance for their schools. This is the third dance that the schools have joined forces for a successful school dance. The much-anticipated event first began in 2008 as an experiment to see if the two schools could successfully provide a safe and healthy interaction between the boys and girls who attend each single sex school. It has been a huge success and has lead to the implementation of regular interaction between our students.
The night was filled with excitement as the boys from Stone Mountain entered the dance. Auldern girls and Student Life Counselors had spent the day transforming the dining hall into a winter wonderland, filled with sparkling snowflakes in honor of the season. The DJ revved up the music and students joined together for an evening of dance and socialization. All students really seemed to enjoy themselves at the event.
Doug Deaton, a professional photographer who also teaches at Auldern, was on hand to capture the event for the parents of the students.
We thank the Stone Mountain staff for bringing their boys such a long way and helping to chaperone the dance. Stone Mountain will host the next event in early 2011. This is a tradition we hope continues for many years to come.
Auldern Academy is a therapeutic boarding school in North Carolina serving young women grades 8-12. For more information about Auldern Academy, contact us at http://www.auldern.com (http://www.auldern.com).
Auldern is owned and operated by Sequel Youth and Family Services, Inc.
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Whooter, do you realize that your monopoly here is destroying this site?
Glad you've got nothing better to do.
You have your opinions. I have mine, and I doubt we could ever change each others minds.
You are prolific. I'll grant you that, but the whole story has grown quite tiresome.
If you don't work in the TTI,then why not? I can't believe all of the effort that's put into arguing the same points over and over again with no conclusion. We all know where each other stands by now and It certainly does not make for compelling reading. I fear without anything new, this site will dry up and blow away.
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Exactly.
The funny thing is as soon as Whoots accomplishes his objective, then wtf will he do all day?
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This information is not going to hurt the site at all. Do you realize how many readers think that programs brainwash kids and perform torture on them? If we can bring in current information on programs and allow the readers to see that kids are not getting hurt the way that many here claim then it will reduce many of these misconceptions or cancel them out altogether. If we read the requirements for brainwashing and thought reform and then read that the kids in certain programs compete in sports with other high schools and go to dances etc. then we can conclude that conditions do not exist for successful brainwashing to occur and therefore we don’t have to worry as much about the kids in these schools like may do now.
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Like I said , you just don't get it . and you probably won't.
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Like I said , you just don't get it . and you probably won't.
You may be right, none-ya, I am not sure what you mean. I am not disruptive or posting bad information or misleading anyone.
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Like I said , you just don't get it . and you probably won't.
You may be right, none-ya, I am not sure what you mean. I am not disruptive or posting bad information or misleading anyone.
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After all points are made everything always winds up being about you.It breaks down to nothing more than insults and threats. Don't you get tired of it?
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Do you realize how many readers think that programs brainwash kids and perform torture on them
You say this as if it wasn't true.
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Do you realize how many readers think that programs brainwash kids and perform torture on them
You say this as if it wasn't true.
Yes, you read my post correctly.
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Like I said , you just don't get it . and you probably won't.
You may be right, none-ya, I am not sure what you mean. I am not disruptive or posting bad information or misleading anyone.
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After all points are made everything always winds up being about you.It breaks down to nothing more than insults and threats. Don't you get tired of it?
I have become accustom to the insults. When a person is insulting me here on fornits it is due to their own frustration of losing an argument or their inability to express themselves in any other manner. I don’t take it personally because the insults are not a result of anything lacking on my end, nor do I have control over them.
The threats are almost always mis directed.
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If we read the requirements for brainwashing and thought reform and then read that the kids in certain programs compete in sports with other high schools and go to dances etc. then we can conclude that conditions do not exist for successful brainwashing to occur and therefore we don’t have to worry as much about the kids in these schools like may do now.
LOL. That's YOUR opinion, and that's just about all it is! :D
What is the source for your working definition of "the requirements for brainwashing and thought reform?" This is obviously still a very controversial issue, hence no such universally accepted definition exists. Therefore, there is simply no "we can conclude" and "we don't have to worry as much" about any of your above conjecture!
Faulty premises do not generally lead to sound conclusions, no matter how prolifically you can churn them out, Whooter...
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yep, im bettin that winter wonderland was one awkward motherfucker. I m bettin there was some of the worst shit ever went on. People with raging hormones in a superstressful inviron.......wonder if any un-protected sex went on, Im bettin nobody spiked jackshit,,,,,,I wonder who was trying to select a playlist.....hey whos gonna get confronted tommorrow over some insignificant bs, I wonder other than the usual journalistic fluff,what REALLY went on....coulda been the time of somebodys life too,right? of course what ever a journalist writes is gospel, specially in a podunk paper. sorry i just see holes here....does anyone think journalists lack credibility,other than me? or am I such a hammer that the rest of the world is a bagfull o nails......
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Whooter, do you realize that your monopoly here is destroying this site?
Glad you've got nothing better to do. . . I fear without anything new, this site will dry up and blow away.
This site isn't going anywhere.
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Whooter, do you realize that your monopoly here is destroying this site?
Glad you've got nothing better to do. . . I fear without anything new, this site will dry up and blow away.
This site isn't going anywhere.
:tup: :tup: :cheers:
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TESTIFY!
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:cheers:
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Dear Whooter,
Please keep in mind I am responding to your words and not you personally, I do not wish to insult anyone here.
You spoke about the notion that since some programs involve extracirricular activities, these programs are not engaged in brainwashing.
Firstly, I would be happy to speak to you directly if at any point you'd like to.
Secondly, it's rather sickening for many of us to read any sort of defense of these programs. When someone inflicts pain with the intention of causing "growth" it is sort of like playing God.
Thirdly, I recently watched the PBS series on the Jonestown Massacre.
Those folks were hysterical with joy the evening before Jim Jones began shooting the journalists and then ordered everyone to commit suicide.
These people of all ages were outwardly happy.
Jim ordered Parents to kill their children first.
Whooter, this is Documented.
You can watch it yourself, the cameras were rolling, you can hear the children crying from the cyanide pain in their stomachs.
My point is that this comunity was taking care of the elderly, raising happy kids, growing food, singing, playing games etc.
The Journalists were almost dupped.
You may have not been brainwashed, I hope for your sake that is true.
For those of us that struggle with the challenge of moving on, your remarks could be interpreted as insensitive.
I am sorry that I appear insensitive. You are not the first one to point out that I was insensitive with my posts and communicating my thoughts. The presence of sports was only one aspect that would hamper an environment conducive to Brainwashing. If you add in communication with the outside world via phone calls and family vists, intense academics and preparation for the PSATS or SATs, the coming and going of new hires of staff, weekly therapy sessions with an independent therapist who communicates with the childs therapist at home etc. makes it very unlikely that the child could undergo brainwashing.
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The presence of sports was only one aspect that would hamper an environment conducive to Brainwashing. If you add in communication with the outside world via phone calls and family vists, intense academics and preparation for the PSATS or SATs, the coming and going of new hires of staff, weekly therapy sessions with an independent therapist who communicates with the childs therapist at home etc. makes it very unlikely that the child could undergo brainwashing.
Pbbbffftttt. Please. Sports is just another means of indoctrination for the program; it's all part of the therapeutic milieu. Just 'cuz you play another team once a week or so ... does not in any significant way cut into that. It's not like you are gonna have any meaningful amount of time for socializing with them, eh? Besides, they're the other team. You're trying to beat them, right?
In fact, sports is a particularly important tool of indoctrination at Hyde. Your team is yet another encounter group which can eviscerate you publically on a moments notice for whatever whim may be.
Are you really putting out 125% effort every day? Do you play as a team member (concern for others), or are you trying to be a star, at the expense of others (excessive self interest)? What do you do for practice on your own time (commitment)? Are you keeping your weight within reasonable limits? Are you trying to carve out some slack time by complaining about minor injuries (integrity)? Did you pick the appropriate sport to challenge yourself where you need to be challenged, as opposed to what you'd like to play? Do you have a good attitude, or a BAD ATTITUDE?
As to all that other stuff you listed, Whooter, depending on the institution, some of it occurs right at the program. Not all that much occurs "outside," in the real world.
One has to keep in mind that, while you're in a program, that particular program is your psychological home base. It becomes the seat of your self concept, your means of defining your self. At least it does for enough kids so that the appearance of such is the status quo. Any excursions out, be they actual or just via phone calls, are always experienced in that context. You don't necessarily need physical walls when you can be convinced to erect them within your own mind.
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The presence of sports was only one aspect that would hamper an environment conducive to Brainwashing. If you add in communication with the outside world via phone calls and family vists, intense academics and preparation for the PSATS or SATs, the coming and going of new hires of staff, weekly therapy sessions with an independent therapist who communicates with the childs therapist at home etc. makes it very unlikely that the child could undergo brainwashing.
Pbbbffftttt. Please. Sports is just another means of indoctrination for the program; it's all part of the therapeutic milieu. Just 'cuz you play another team once a week or so ... does not in any significant way cut into that. It's not like you are gonna have any meaningful amount of time for socializing with them, eh? Besides, they're the other team. You're trying to beat them, right?
In fact, sports is a particularly important tool of indoctrination at Hyde. Your team is yet another encounter group which can eviscerate you publically on a moments notice for whatever whim may be.
Are you really putting out 125% effort every day? Do you play as a team member (concern for others), or are you trying to be a star, at the expense of others (excessive self interest)? What do you do for practice on your own time (commitment)? Are you keeping your weight within reasonable limits? Are you trying to carve out some slack time by complaining about minor injuries (integrity)? Did you pick the appropriate sport to challenge yourself where you need to be challenged, as opposed to what you'd like to play? Do you have a good attitude, or a BAD ATTITUDE?
As to all that other stuff you listed, Whooter, depending on the institution, some of it occurs right at the program. Not all that much occurs "outside," in the real world.
One has to keep in mind that, while you're in a program, that particular program is your psychological home base. It becomes the seat of your self concept, your means of defining your self. At least it does for enough kids so that the appearance of such is the status quo. Any excursions out, be they actual or just via phone calls, are always experienced in that context. You don't necessarily need physical walls when you can be convinced to erect them within your own mind.
I am not insinuating that the presence of sports negates the possibility of the presence of brain washing. It is but one facet of many that points towards the improbability that thought reform could thrive in a program. Kids who are participating in team sports, preparing for SATs, seeing an independent counselor, traveling to visit colleges, going to dances or dates into town, white water rafting etc. If you look at all of these events it pretty much eliminates any chance of creating an environment conducive to supporting the necessary elements needed for brainwashing. It may create a nauseating overzealous team spirit but not much more.
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The presence of sports was only one aspect that would hamper an environment conducive to Brainwashing. If you add in communication with the outside world via phone calls and family vists, intense academics and preparation for the PSATS or SATs, the coming and going of new hires of staff, weekly therapy sessions with an independent therapist who communicates with the childs therapist at home etc. makes it very unlikely that the child could undergo brainwashing.
Pbbbffftttt. Please. Sports is just another means of indoctrination for the program; it's all part of the therapeutic milieu. Just 'cuz you play another team once a week or so ... does not in any significant way cut into that. It's not like you are gonna have any meaningful amount of time for socializing with them, eh? Besides, they're the other team. You're trying to beat them, right?
In fact, sports is a particularly important tool of indoctrination at Hyde. Your team is yet another encounter group which can eviscerate you publically on a moments notice for whatever whim may be.
Are you really putting out 125% effort every day? Do you play as a team member (concern for others), or are you trying to be a star, at the expense of others (excessive self interest)? What do you do for practice on your own time (commitment)? Are you keeping your weight within reasonable limits? Are you trying to carve out some slack time by complaining about minor injuries (integrity)? Did you pick the appropriate sport to challenge yourself where you need to be challenged, as opposed to what you'd like to play? Do you have a good attitude, or a BAD ATTITUDE?
As to all that other stuff you listed, Whooter, depending on the institution, some of it occurs right at the program. Not all that much occurs "outside," in the real world.
One has to keep in mind that, while you're in a program, that particular program is your psychological home base. It becomes the seat of your self concept, your means of defining your self. At least it does for enough kids so that the appearance of such is the status quo. Any excursions out, be they actual or just via phone calls, are always experienced in that context. You don't necessarily need physical walls when you can be convinced to erect them within your own mind.
I am not insinuating that the presence of sports negates the possibility of the presence of brain washing. It is but one facet of many that points towards the improbability that thought reform could thrive in a program. Kids who are participating in team sports, preparing for SATs, seeing an independent counselor, traveling to visit colleges, going to dances or dates into town, white water rafting etc. If you look at all of these events it pretty much eliminates any chance of creating an environment conducive to supporting the necessary elements needed for brainwashing. It may create a nauseating overzealous team spirit but not much more.
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Ok, I understand you are posting this just to be insolent or ornery. I can not see any other reason because first you are not qualified to make this statement and you have not done any study or investigation to support your comments. So, we have once again you just spouting off a backyard barbecue conversation you had maybe last Saturday.
In none of your posts to date have I read where you have given a intelligent articulate opinion on the effects of thought reform/brainwashing, the conditions and environments thought reform/brainwashing can incubate and prosper in. How brainwashing effects certain children as opposed to others and how brainwashing is systemic within programs. This whole conversation can go on. But your not looking for that, you just want to make short and sweet comments to inspire someone to play along with you.
If you had any idea how a program operates, well......you would not be making 99% of the comments you make.
Whooter, the children.
addendum: to my comment above. Ursus, said it correctly below (in his post) we are talking about "thought reform" within these programs.
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The isolation from outside ideas, the social isolation from people who are not indoctrinated just isn’t there in many of todays programs, Heretik. Successful brainwashing requires full control over and uninterrupted attention of the subject which is to be brainwashed. If the children are off playing sports with other kids outside the program, calling home to family, going into town for date night and attending dances, preparing to take SATs, attending school and seeing independent licensed ocunselors then the foundation for thought control just isn’t there.
There are many other facets to brainwashing like sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation etc. but isolating the victim is primary in being successful and these kids are not isolated. Do a little reading up on the subject and then compare the requirements to today's programs and you will see what I am saying. I can point you to some reading if you are interested.
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The presence of sports was only one aspect that would hamper an environment conducive to Brainwashing. If you add in communication with the outside world via phone calls and family vists, intense academics and preparation for the PSATS or SATs, the coming and going of new hires of staff, weekly therapy sessions with an independent therapist who communicates with the childs therapist at home etc. makes it very unlikely that the child could undergo brainwashing.
Pbbbffftttt. Please. Sports is just another means of indoctrination for the program; it's all part of the therapeutic milieu. Just 'cuz you play another team once a week or so ... does not in any significant way cut into that. It's not like you are gonna have any meaningful amount of time for socializing with them, eh? Besides, they're the other team. You're trying to beat them, right?
In fact, sports is a particularly important tool of indoctrination at Hyde. Your team is yet another encounter group which can eviscerate you publically on a moments notice for whatever whim may be.
Are you really putting out 125% effort every day? Do you play as a team member (concern for others), or are you trying to be a star, at the expense of others (excessive self interest)? What do you do for practice on your own time (commitment)? Are you keeping your weight within reasonable limits? Are you trying to carve out some slack time by complaining about minor injuries (integrity)? Did you pick the appropriate sport to challenge yourself where you need to be challenged, as opposed to what you'd like to play? Do you have a good attitude, or a BAD ATTITUDE?
As to all that other stuff you listed, Whooter, depending on the institution, some of it occurs right at the program. Not all that much occurs "outside," in the real world.
One has to keep in mind that, while you're in a program, that particular program is your psychological home base. It becomes the seat of your self concept, your means of defining your self. At least it does for enough kids so that the appearance of such is the status quo. Any excursions out, be they actual or just via phone calls, are always experienced in that context. You don't necessarily need physical walls when you can be convinced to erect them within your own mind.
I am not insinuating that the presence of sports negates the possibility of the presence of brain washing. It is but one facet of many that points towards the improbability that thought reform could thrive in a program. Kids who are participating in team sports, preparing for SATs, seeing an independent counselor, traveling to visit colleges, going to dances or dates into town, white water rafting etc. If you look at all of these events it pretty much eliminates any chance of creating an environment conducive to supporting the necessary elements needed for brainwashing. It may create a nauseating overzealous team spirit but not much more.
What exactly do you mean by "...but one facet of many that points towards the improbability that thought reform could thrive in a program?"
These programs are completely BASED on thought reform. Why else do you think they even exist? Otherwise they wouldn't be programs, they'd be "boarding schools," and you wouldn't be hearing complaints of "cultiness," coercion, brainwashing, etc. Of course, this doesn't even begin to touch on the egregious physical abuses happening above and beyond that from time to time...
When this country started experimenting with the use of psychological coercion as a means of modifying kids' behavior back in the 1950s and 60s, they thought it was quite a progressive alternative to the physical brutality that was then the norm. It seemed like a kinder, gentler, more humane way to go about getting juvenile delinquents in line.
And they haven't stopped since. In fact, they've broadened the target population. Now, it's no longer just kids stuck in juvie or psych wards (where kids were sometimes placed when juvie was considered too rough). Any kind of so-called "maladjustment," minor drug use or the suspicion thereof, defiance and even mere unruly typical teenage behavior is, given sufficiently maleable or intolerant parents, quite enough to get a kid sent away.
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The isolation from outside ideas, the social isolation from people who are not indoctrinated just isn’t there in many of todays programs, Heretik. Successful brainwashing requires full control over and uninterrupted attention of the subject which is to be brainwashed. If the children are off playing sports with other kids outside the program, calling home to family, going into town for date night and attending dances, preparing to take SATs, attending school and seeing independent licensed ocunselors then the foundation for thought control just isn’t there.
There are many other facets to brainwashing like sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation etc. but isolating the victim is primary in being successful and these kids are not isolated. Do a little reading up on the subject and then compare the requirements to today's programs and you will see what I am saying. I can point you to some reading if you are interested.
LOLOLOLLLL. I notice you switched to the more inflammatory term "brainwashing" for this part.
You don't need "full control over and uninterrupted attention of the subject" in order to effect thought reform. Ya don't even need to do a complete job! You just need to do enough of a job to effect enough of the group, in order to modify the status quo. The "positive peer culture," part and parcel of that thought reform, takes care of the rest.
It's far more sophisticated these days, not at all like it's depicted in The Manchurian Candidate, which is something a professional propagandist like yourself already knows all too well, Whooter!
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The presence of sports was only one aspect that would hamper an environment conducive to Brainwashing. If you add in communication with the outside world via phone calls and family vists, intense academics and preparation for the PSATS or SATs, the coming and going of new hires of staff, weekly therapy sessions with an independent therapist who communicates with the childs therapist at home etc. makes it very unlikely that the child could undergo brainwashing.
Pbbbffftttt. Please. Sports is just another means of indoctrination for the program; it's all part of the therapeutic milieu. Just 'cuz you play another team once a week or so ... does not in any significant way cut into that. It's not like you are gonna have any meaningful amount of time for socializing with them, eh? Besides, they're the other team. You're trying to beat them, right?
In fact, sports is a particularly important tool of indoctrination at Hyde. Your team is yet another encounter group which can eviscerate you publically on a moments notice for whatever whim may be.
Are you really putting out 125% effort every day? Do you play as a team member (concern for others), or are you trying to be a star, at the expense of others (excessive self interest)? What do you do for practice on your own time (commitment)? Are you keeping your weight within reasonable limits? Are you trying to carve out some slack time by complaining about minor injuries (integrity)? Did you pick the appropriate sport to challenge yourself where you need to be challenged, as opposed to what you'd like to play? Do you have a good attitude, or a BAD ATTITUDE?
As to all that other stuff you listed, Whooter, depending on the institution, some of it occurs right at the program. Not all that much occurs "outside," in the real world.
One has to keep in mind that, while you're in a program, that particular program is your psychological home base. It becomes the seat of your self concept, your means of defining your self. At least it does for enough kids so that the appearance of such is the status quo. Any excursions out, be they actual or just via phone calls, are always experienced in that context. You don't necessarily need physical walls when you can be convinced to erect them within your own mind.
I am not insinuating that the presence of sports negates the possibility of the presence of brain washing. It is but one facet of many that points towards the improbability that thought reform could thrive in a program. Kids who are participating in team sports, preparing for SATs, seeing an independent counselor, traveling to visit colleges, going to dances or dates into town, white water rafting etc. If you look at all of these events it pretty much eliminates any chance of creating an environment conducive to supporting the necessary elements needed for brainwashing. It may create a nauseating overzealous team spirit but not much more.
What exactly do you mean by "...but one facet of many that points towards the improbability that thought reform could thrive in a program?"
These programs are completely BASED on thought reform. Why else do you think they even exist? Otherwise they wouldn't be programs, they'd be "boarding schools," and you wouldn't be hearing complaints of "cultiness," coercion, brainwashing, etc. Of course, this doesn't even begin to touch on the egregious physical abuses happening above and beyond that from time to time...
When this country started experimenting with the use of psychological coercion as a means of modifying kids' behavior back in the 1950s and 60s, they thought it was quite a progressive alternative to the physical brutality that was then the norm. It seemed like a kinder, gentler, more humane way to go about getting juvenile delinquents in line.
And they haven't stopped since. In fact, they've broadened the target population. Now, it's no longer just kids stuck in juvie or psych wards (where kids were sometimes placed when juvie was considered too rough). Any kind of so-called "maladjustment," minor drug use or the suspicion thereof, defiance and even mere unruly typical teenage behavior is, given sufficiently maleable or intolerant parents, quite enough to get a kid sent away.
Its Behavior Modification, Ursus, not Brain washing. Sure the average program kids are further isolated from society than public highschool kids are and they are subjected to a very structured environment. But if you look at all the elements that need to come together to successfully brainwash a person these programs do not even come close. I will see if I can locate a link to the elements I am referring to.
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Because brainwashing is such an invasive form of influence, it requires the complete isolation and dependency of the subject, which is why you mostly hear of brainwashing occurring in prison camps or totalist cults. The agent (the brainwasher) must have complete control over the target (the brainwashee) so that sleep patterns, eating, using the bathroom and the fulfillment of other basic human needs depend on the will of the agent. In the brainwashing process, the agent systematically breaks down the target's identity to the point that it doesn't work anymore. The agent then replaces it with another set of behaviors, attitudes and beliefs that work in the target's current environment.
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Because brainwashing is such an invasive form of influence, it requires the complete isolation and dependency of the subject, which is why you mostly hear of brainwashing occurring in prison camps or totalist cults. The agent (the brainwasher) must have complete control over the target (the brainwashee) so that sleep patterns, eating, using the bathroom and the fulfillment of other basic human needs depend on the will of the agent. In the brainwashing process, the agent systematically breaks down the target's identity to the point that it doesn't work anymore. The agent then replaces it with another set of behaviors, attitudes and beliefs that work in the target's current environment.
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That is from Lifton's book, which is 50 years old. I daresay that today they have refined and perfected it to the point that total control may be accomplished while still presenting the appearance of freedom. The main target is always the parents anyway, once they brainwash them, then they have the child's entire world under their control. And of course the parents came to these places looking for help because they were desperate, which made them perfect potential cult recruits. The parents are the child's only recourse from an abusive or insane program, if they are program fanatics too, then it doesn't matter how many "date nights" they are allowed to EARN (and how do they earn them, I wonder?), you are still controlling their whole world and they have no escape from their tormentors.
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Its Behavior Modification, Ursus, not Brain washing. Sure the average program kids are further isolated from society than public highschool kids are and they are subjected to a very structured environment. But if you look at all the elements that need to come together to successfully brainwash a person these programs do not even come close. I will see if I can locate a link to the elements I am referring to.
Because brainwashing is such an invasive form of influence, it requires the complete isolation and dependency of the subject, which is why you mostly hear of brainwashing occurring in prison camps or totalist cults. The agent (the brainwasher) must have complete control over the target (the brainwashee) so that sleep patterns, eating, using the bathroom and the fulfillment of other basic human needs depend on the will of the agent. In the brainwashing process, the agent systematically breaks down the target's identity to the point that it doesn't work anymore. The agent then replaces it with another set of behaviors, attitudes and beliefs that work in the target's current environment.
Ya know... This all strikes me as yet another one of your derailments based on semantics and vocabulary choices, Whooter. Very similar to the hogwash you've posted in dozens of threads containing your BS arguments re. the "inappropriateness" of other commonly used survivor terminology.
Personally, I see all of these terms (and more) as residing on a continuum of persuasion, with more extreme forms on one end, and less extreme forms on the other. Not exactly like Margaret Singer saw them, but pretty similar. I think certain forms of advertising and propaganda have gotten a lot more aggressive since Singer came up with her chart, and I probably see them as a bit more coercive than she did.
And, while I personally tend to use the terms "thought reform" or "thought coercion" "used to effect behavior modification" (or some similar derivations thereof) ... 'cuz, in my opinion, these terms describe what *I* am talking about more accurately and with greater precision ... if someone uses the term "brainwashing," I'm not gonna flip out and attempt to derail the thread with a sidetrack on vocabulary choice, since I generally know just what the are refering to. This is fornits, after all.
Moreover, who am *I*, or anyone else, for that matter, to judge just how someone's program experience affected them? Seriously, I really think ya gotta let people communicate the way they want to communicate, Whooter. Is it REALLY that important that they use "Whooter-approved" terminology? Geezzz.
I might also reiterate my point earlier (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=32531&p=391396#p391377) in this thread, and more effectively articulated by Shady in his post (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=32531&p=391396#p391389) just above, that programs are a great deal more sophisticated these days about how they cram this stuff into people's craniums. As Mary Poppins perennially warbles, "A spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down..."
:dose: :dose: :dose:
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Because brainwashing is such an invasive form of influence, it requires the complete isolation and dependency of the subject, which is why you mostly hear of brainwashing occurring in prison camps or totalist cults. The agent (the brainwasher) must have complete control over the target (the brainwashee) so that sleep patterns, eating, using the bathroom and the fulfillment of other basic human needs depend on the will of the agent. In the brainwashing process, the agent systematically breaks down the target's identity to the point that it doesn't work anymore. The agent then replaces it with another set of behaviors, attitudes and beliefs that work in the target's current environment.
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That is from Lifton's book, which is 50 years old. I daresay that today they have refined and perfected it to the point that total control may be accomplished while still presenting the appearance of freedom. The main target is always the parents anyway, once they brainwash them, then they have the child's entire world under their control. And of course the parents came to these places looking for help because they were desperate, which made them perfect potential cult recruits. The parents are the child's only recourse from an abusive or insane program, if they are program fanatics too, then it doesn't matter how many "date nights" they are allowed to EARN (and how do they earn them, I wonder?), you are still controlling their whole world and they have no escape from their tormentors.
Like Brainwashing "Lite". It sounds a little like the whole kidnapping argument we had months ago. The kids are not legally kidnapped but it sounds really awful when recounting their story thereby making the program seem bad and abusive. I dont see how the parents can get brainwashed, the parents are barely involved in the program. They work full time, attend a few meetings, speak on the phone and then bring the kid home.
From my readings on the subject I think a person is either brainwashed or they are not. I dont think there is middle ground or shortcuts which can implemented that can be just as effective. At least I have not read this anywhere, I could be wrong, but I have never seen any evidence of this.
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The isolation from outside ideas, the social isolation from people who are not indoctrinated just isn’t there in many of todays programs, Heretik. Successful brainwashing requires full control over and uninterrupted attention of the subject which is to be brainwashed. If the children are off playing sports with other kids outside the program, calling home to family, going into town for date night and attending dances, preparing to take SATs, attending school and seeing independent licensed ocunselors then the foundation for thought control just isn’t there.
There are many other facets to brainwashing like sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation etc. but isolating the victim is primary in being successful and these kids are not isolated. Do a little reading up on the subject and then compare the requirements to today's programs and you will see what I am saying. I can point you to some reading if you are interested.
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Whooter, your summation above is severely flawed and your dependence upon articles here you have skimmed over shows. Isolation can and does happen whether you are on the compound or off and involved in social activities. Why? Because no matter where you are and what you are doing the events that you are involved in were set up and organized by the very people that have been indoctrinating you. You seem to forget (in your wonderful fantasy program world) that before the young adult was allowed to go out and date, check out colleges, attend seminars, enjoy river raft and ski trips. They had been closed off for a prolonged period of time and forced fed a new concept of living, there thoughts were reformed (or so they think) . It was only at this point did the staff feel the student would be able to excel at the desired results the staff wanted, did they let the child go out.
Most programs I know chaperon the children, the night/day activities are very well controlled. You have to remember also, parents are paying hefty amounts of money and they do not want to here about how their young daughter was injured while out cavorting about and nobody was supervising. The other part of your story I found puzzling was students out interviewing at colleges, Whooter their parents would be there. So this would be close to the end of their stay. The damage has already been done.
One big problem all these new thoughts (this new personality) were never battle tested in the outside world, so they struggle heartily. Most survivors I have known including myself have had two primary emotions that sort of outweighed all others (after getting out of the program) anger and guilt. Anger because of the confusion we have about our world and the guilt do to the reactions. This is a fucked up way to live. Thank god I have had much healing.
Whooter, you can not come in to someones life in early adolescents and rip it apart and start over. The spirit (ego) of this young delicate soul is just crushed, sometimes beyond repair.
Note: "but isolating the victim is primary in being successful and these kids are not isolated": broaden your thoughts on this comment. Stop trying to win the battle ( by trying to seem important) and you may just see the war were fighting. Were a team here, Whooter.
All advocating for the kids.
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The isolation from outside ideas, the social isolation from people who are not indoctrinated just isn’t there in many of todays programs, Heretik. Successful brainwashing requires full control over and uninterrupted attention of the subject which is to be brainwashed. If the children are off playing sports with other kids outside the program, calling home to family, going into town for date night and attending dances, preparing to take SATs, attending school and seeing independent licensed ocunselors then the foundation for thought control just isn’t there.
There are many other facets to brainwashing like sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation etc. but isolating the victim is primary in being successful and these kids are not isolated. Do a little reading up on the subject and then compare the requirements to today's programs and you will see what I am saying. I can point you to some reading if you are interested.
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Whooter, your summation above is severely flawed and your dependence upon articles here you have skimmed over shows.
I am sorry you feel that way, Heretik. Maybe at some point you can present your ideas and back them up with some studies or facts, I would like to read them. But in the mean time I will go along with the definition of Brainwashing and the process as it is laid out by the professionals.
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duplicate..
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The isolation from outside ideas, the social isolation from people who are not indoctrinated just isn’t there in many of todays programs, Heretik. Successful brainwashing requires full control over and uninterrupted attention of the subject which is to be brainwashed. If the children are off playing sports with other kids outside the program, calling home to family, going into town for date night and attending dances, preparing to take SATs, attending school and seeing independent licensed ocunselors then the foundation for thought control just isn’t there.
There are many other facets to brainwashing like sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation etc. but isolating the victim is primary in being successful and these kids are not isolated. Do a little reading up on the subject and then compare the requirements to today's programs and you will see what I am saying. I can point you to some reading if you are interested.
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Whooter, your summation above is severely flawed and your dependence upon articles here you have skimmed over shows.
I am sorry you feel that way, Heretik. Maybe at some point you can present your ideas and back them up with some studies or facts, I would like to read them. But in the mean time I will go along with the definition of Brainwashing and the process as it is laid out by the professionals.
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All the studies have all ready been laid out here on fornits, I believe there are volumes. Many members here have unselfishly devoted hours creating a archive of info. At your leisure please read. At that point you will have all the "backed up studies" you will need. I will not do your work for you. You want to ramble on about this and that find your own studies. Then you can argue with yourself. At this time I am more concerned about the effects of "thought reform" and how it is effecting the children. Good luck.
What you do know Whooter, is my description of your behavior here on fornits is right on the money. We can all agree on this.
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The isolation from outside ideas, the social isolation from people who are not indoctrinated just isn’t there in many of todays programs, Heretik. Successful brainwashing requires full control over and uninterrupted attention of the subject which is to be brainwashed. If the children are off playing sports with other kids outside the program, calling home to family, going into town for date night and attending dances, preparing to take SATs, attending school and seeing independent licensed ocunselors then the foundation for thought control just isn’t there.
There are many other facets to brainwashing like sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation etc. but isolating the victim is primary in being successful and these kids are not isolated. Do a little reading up on the subject and then compare the requirements to today's programs and you will see what I am saying. I can point you to some reading if you are interested.
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Whooter, your summation above is severely flawed and your dependence upon articles here you have skimmed over shows.
I am sorry you feel that way, Heretik. Maybe at some point you can present your ideas and back them up with some studies or facts, I would like to read them. But in the mean time I will go along with the definition of Brainwashing and the process as it is laid out by the professionals.
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All the studies have all ready been laid out here on fornits, I believe there are volumes. Many members here have unselfishly devoted hours creating a archive of info. At your leisure please read. At that point you will have all the "backed up studies" you will need. I will not do your work for you. You want to ramble on about this and that find your own studies. Then you can argue with yourself. At this time I am more concerned about the effects of "thought reform" and how it is effecting the children. Good luck.
What you do know Whooter, is my description of your behavior here on fornits is right on the money. We can all agree on this.
Translated: You cant produce any. I knew this already but wanted you to realize this for yourself.
This is why I am staying with what the professionals say about Brainwashing and the conditions necessary for it to be accomplished.
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