406
The Seed Discussion Forum / cleveland seed
« on: August 31, 2004, 04:33:00 PM »
Yes, I entered the Cleveland Seed on Aug. 15, 1978 (see, still remember the anniversary!) and then we moved to Florida. Left in '86.
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407
The Seed Discussion Forum / Rev. #1 Cost of Seed - per child - survey (ignore earlier po
« on: August 31, 2004, 04:13:00 PM »
I entered Cleveland Seed in '78 and I remember my parents telling me it cost $2000
408
The Seed Discussion Forum / "Newcomer" to this site
« on: August 31, 2004, 03:08:00 PM »
I think this forum is a very powerful tool. Those who fail to understand the past are destined to repeat it, as someone once said.
I have read some of the postings and I feel that I have good, but incomplete memories to share. I am not sure about 'naming names' because perhaps some people are not comfortable being 'outed,' on the other hand I am really curious about different people and will use first name, last initial if that's OK. It appears from what I've read that some of the core of the Seed when I was there, '78 through '86, are still living in the Ft. Lauderdale area and perhaps moniter this site. Hello to you all, I still Love You! Ha. Indeed I do.
The question of whether the Seed 'saved my life' or hurt me is an interesting question. I guess I am inclined to think that I took a lot away from the experience, although some of it is NOT what the staff wanted me to take. Here goes:
An unwillingness to pretend to be someone I'm not
An understanding of just how gullible I am - how anyone can be
How much we all need and want to be loved
A willingness to work hard, and do things I don't necessarily want to do. So much of what I did day to day at the Seed was hard for me and took a lot of self-discipline, so I did get that!
I didn't have a drink for about a year after I left the Seed - that first taste of wine was mightly sweet. At the same time, half of my immediate family is in AA or struggles with drinking, so it's a tendancy I am aware of. I see it as avery pleasure has a price - be aware of it - all things in moderation. This goes for getting high too. I think drugs should be legalized and put more money in REAL treatment. With kids the hard thing is that society lacks structure, and that's what I was looking for at the Seed.
OK, what else did I get? I learned that it is OK to be totally outside of society - walking around arm in arm with your oldcomer, telling people you love them, and telling druggies to 'fuck off' gives you that. Hey it's fun to be an outsider! But I also learned that even outsiders have strict codes of conformity with each other.
I have returned to my pre-Seed idealism in many ways. Once I left, and rejoined the mainstream, I realized just how many great people are out here, trying to live a good life and be a good part of society. Being really close to people at the Seed but not being really honest - inhibiting everything 'non-Seed' about me, has given me a strong BS radar while at the same time I am aware how easily I can deceive myself.
Other things? I was really really depressed when I entered the Seed and for seven years I was NOT allowed to give into it. So I did learn to repress it. It came out again strongly once I left, and I think that while I was not 'depressed' when I was in I was super anxious all the time. I had panic attacks when I was at the Seed which I never spoke about because I was a defective Seedling. After I left I worked really hard to deal with and understand who I was, instead of papering over it with slogans like 'You're Not Alone Anymore.'
After I left the Seed I did a lot of things I really wanted to do. Went to Europe - graduated from college - went to art school - learned how to play the piano - got a girlfriend! Time has passed so quickly. I used to mark my 'post Seed' aniversary. I remember when I was out for seven years, as long as I was in. Now I am 45 years old, and 1986, when I left, is closing in on 20 years ago. So hard to believe. I am now ten years younger than Art was when I went in.
People I remember: there was Steve H. and his sister, Nancy. He was 35 when I lived with him. Steve had a great sense of humor. Ray K., I've seen posts elsewhere, has apparently died. Ray left the Seed after he and Laura (they were both staff) married, without Art's approval. His brother Bob married Libby? Wow. John Perloff married Kathy - KP? from Cleveland. She was really a sweet girl. John G. from Cleveland was married and they had a child. Then there was Randy - he played guitar and had a great voice. He was also married to a Seed woman. I worked with him in the family print shop - also at this place was Larry from Cleveland, who split days before I did, and he'd been around longer than I had. Seth, who worked for Sears - Art gave him a lot of leeway; he was kind of an outsider, and loved music, but didn't do much Seed stuff outside of exude a kind of 'I've been straight forever' vibe. There was Fred, Cliff's brother, who was Jr. staff. Brad from Georgia, who was a gifted athlete, nice guy, and part of the inner circle (as were many of the people I recall, since by '86 you were either in the circle or near it); there was Julio and Mandy, we'd had an influx of Cubans in the later years.
Does anyone remember Bob? He had been a big part of things when I came to Florida in '78. Very charismatic, I lived in his apt. in Plantation. He was friends with Robert and had shot himself in the chest with a shotgun pre-Seed, which gave him lots of cred. His big thing was talking about how he used to 'lay and play' and I guess he did 'cause he split when I was there which was one of my first indications that all was not right at the Seed 'cause why would such an insider split? Then there was Nona Z., a sometime staff member who was also in and out. It seemed at the end that there was a group of long-time insiders who kind of flirted with the outside world. I guess the rest of us weren't strong enough to face temptation. Maybe it's like the Rumspringer the Amish go through, when they are allowed to go crazy for a while before they commit to the Amish life. Anyway, that always bugged me, because I was very literal and observant in my Seed-ness, without ever making it to the inner circle.
I really wanted to be a staff member. That seemed like the ultimate of cool for me, I am so embarrased to say. Thank god I never did.
In the end, it was all about being cool, wasn't it? Just like the outside world.
I have read some of the postings and I feel that I have good, but incomplete memories to share. I am not sure about 'naming names' because perhaps some people are not comfortable being 'outed,' on the other hand I am really curious about different people and will use first name, last initial if that's OK. It appears from what I've read that some of the core of the Seed when I was there, '78 through '86, are still living in the Ft. Lauderdale area and perhaps moniter this site. Hello to you all, I still Love You! Ha. Indeed I do.
The question of whether the Seed 'saved my life' or hurt me is an interesting question. I guess I am inclined to think that I took a lot away from the experience, although some of it is NOT what the staff wanted me to take. Here goes:
An unwillingness to pretend to be someone I'm not
An understanding of just how gullible I am - how anyone can be
How much we all need and want to be loved
A willingness to work hard, and do things I don't necessarily want to do. So much of what I did day to day at the Seed was hard for me and took a lot of self-discipline, so I did get that!
I didn't have a drink for about a year after I left the Seed - that first taste of wine was mightly sweet. At the same time, half of my immediate family is in AA or struggles with drinking, so it's a tendancy I am aware of. I see it as avery pleasure has a price - be aware of it - all things in moderation. This goes for getting high too. I think drugs should be legalized and put more money in REAL treatment. With kids the hard thing is that society lacks structure, and that's what I was looking for at the Seed.
OK, what else did I get? I learned that it is OK to be totally outside of society - walking around arm in arm with your oldcomer, telling people you love them, and telling druggies to 'fuck off' gives you that. Hey it's fun to be an outsider! But I also learned that even outsiders have strict codes of conformity with each other.
I have returned to my pre-Seed idealism in many ways. Once I left, and rejoined the mainstream, I realized just how many great people are out here, trying to live a good life and be a good part of society. Being really close to people at the Seed but not being really honest - inhibiting everything 'non-Seed' about me, has given me a strong BS radar while at the same time I am aware how easily I can deceive myself.
Other things? I was really really depressed when I entered the Seed and for seven years I was NOT allowed to give into it. So I did learn to repress it. It came out again strongly once I left, and I think that while I was not 'depressed' when I was in I was super anxious all the time. I had panic attacks when I was at the Seed which I never spoke about because I was a defective Seedling. After I left I worked really hard to deal with and understand who I was, instead of papering over it with slogans like 'You're Not Alone Anymore.'
After I left the Seed I did a lot of things I really wanted to do. Went to Europe - graduated from college - went to art school - learned how to play the piano - got a girlfriend! Time has passed so quickly. I used to mark my 'post Seed' aniversary. I remember when I was out for seven years, as long as I was in. Now I am 45 years old, and 1986, when I left, is closing in on 20 years ago. So hard to believe. I am now ten years younger than Art was when I went in.
People I remember: there was Steve H. and his sister, Nancy. He was 35 when I lived with him. Steve had a great sense of humor. Ray K., I've seen posts elsewhere, has apparently died. Ray left the Seed after he and Laura (they were both staff) married, without Art's approval. His brother Bob married Libby? Wow. John Perloff married Kathy - KP? from Cleveland. She was really a sweet girl. John G. from Cleveland was married and they had a child. Then there was Randy - he played guitar and had a great voice. He was also married to a Seed woman. I worked with him in the family print shop - also at this place was Larry from Cleveland, who split days before I did, and he'd been around longer than I had. Seth, who worked for Sears - Art gave him a lot of leeway; he was kind of an outsider, and loved music, but didn't do much Seed stuff outside of exude a kind of 'I've been straight forever' vibe. There was Fred, Cliff's brother, who was Jr. staff. Brad from Georgia, who was a gifted athlete, nice guy, and part of the inner circle (as were many of the people I recall, since by '86 you were either in the circle or near it); there was Julio and Mandy, we'd had an influx of Cubans in the later years.
Does anyone remember Bob? He had been a big part of things when I came to Florida in '78. Very charismatic, I lived in his apt. in Plantation. He was friends with Robert and had shot himself in the chest with a shotgun pre-Seed, which gave him lots of cred. His big thing was talking about how he used to 'lay and play' and I guess he did 'cause he split when I was there which was one of my first indications that all was not right at the Seed 'cause why would such an insider split? Then there was Nona Z., a sometime staff member who was also in and out. It seemed at the end that there was a group of long-time insiders who kind of flirted with the outside world. I guess the rest of us weren't strong enough to face temptation. Maybe it's like the Rumspringer the Amish go through, when they are allowed to go crazy for a while before they commit to the Amish life. Anyway, that always bugged me, because I was very literal and observant in my Seed-ness, without ever making it to the inner circle.
I really wanted to be a staff member. That seemed like the ultimate of cool for me, I am so embarrased to say. Thank god I never did.
In the end, it was all about being cool, wasn't it? Just like the outside world.
409
The Seed Discussion Forum / "Newcomer" to this site
« on: August 31, 2004, 12:04:00 PM »
No matter how long ago I was at the Seed, it was such a vivid experience that reading about it still gives me chills.
I think that the Seed was extremely clever at developing loyalty and playing with our emotions. I was a pretty rootless 19 year old, and I was really looking for something to belong to. The Seed gave me that, or at least the illusion of it. At some point, I realized that I would never truly belong to it (after all, you can't belong to something that asks you to repress who you are) but I still thought that we were special "changing the world" or "homo superior" as Art used to call it. The Seed was also really great at playing on my insecurities. Because I was a relatively priveleged, white, suburban kid, I was made to feel like the Seed people were more real, that Art's experiences in life were more relevant than mine - that he was a hero, that he had succeeded in society yet removed himself from it so he could be with us.
At some point, the need to be a "perfect seedling" and to remove big parts of my self from public view began to bother me. I wanted to be myself, express my creativity, fall in love, have real friendships that weren't subject to staff approval. I inwardly rebelled for a long time before I left - I knew I was living a lie.
The humiliation that was part of my entry into the program also reinforced the difficulty I had leaving - the body cavity search, being told that I was wrong about everything I'd ever done, that my friends were all bad for me and I was bad for them, that I didn't know how to be a friend, that my family was totally fucked up, that I couldn't make it on my own. Contrast that with being told 'we love you' over and over again, and that my oldcomers were really brilliant at picking up on my needs and fears, and that the staff was really savvy at subtle coercion. Plus, hey, some of the girls were hot, and I wanted them to like me.
And that brings up sex. I guess I had a lot of guilt about my admittedly limited sexual relationships at 19, but the Seed really made me feel like a looser. I remember we were not even supposed to think about sex - remember being told to 'get your head out of the gutter' all the time? I really did make an effort to not think about sex AT ALL - jeez. We played football on the beach with the girls and it was SO HARD to not get that out of your head - they all wore bikinis. I was guilty as charged. After a while I just said fuck it and I became really good at having sexual fantasies during the rap sessions while still formulating a Seed-appropriate response in case I was called on. I think that's when the hyporcrasy of the whole thing fell into place for me and made it much easier to eventually leave.
I entered the Seed progam on August 15, 1978. I had dropped out of college, so depressed I could hardly stand living anymore. I had gone to an Open Meeting in Cleveland and - this was the 70s - there were kids who actually looked happy (it was so cool to look miserable if you were a 19 year old in 1978). I fell for it. Senior staff in Cleveland Scott Barebitski was completely charming, struck me as a hipster, and let me feel like I was in for a real treat if I entered the program. I said 'what the fuck' and before I knew it I was strip searched, all of my 'druggie' clothing was taken away, my hair was cut to military specs, and I was sitting on the front row thinking 'what the fuck have I done?'
Staff at the time was Hank, Bob (a mean guy - I never liked him), and - now I can't remember, an older (like 35) brunette who spoke in a very soft voice and had once had a date with Burt Reynolds. There were some Jr. staff. John Perloff for one. He was a typical product of upper class suburban Cleveland - good looking and smart, but vain about it too I always thought.
Most of the Cleveland oldtimers where real blue collar cleveland types - big guys who worked at Ridge tool or warehouses, and they had hot cars like Camaros or Chevelles (which I always thought was a violation of our 'I'm not supposed to look cool or enjoy material things' vow). Months after I entered (praying to leave every, every day) the whole program moved to Florida, which was cool with me because I had spent happy summers there as a kid. Art and Shelley had come up to Cleveland a few times and I thought his softshoe, old-school jokes and military stories were cool. I was excited about going.
In Florida we had Libby, Cookie, Ginger, and Evie. Libby scared me a little but I thought I understood her 'poor little rich girl' story. Cookie seemed resonable, Evie was nice. But I had a huge crush on Ginger. She was smart, funny and seemed to understand me better that I understood myself. That was definitely used to keep me interested. The guys - Hank from Cleveland, who seemed to leave eventually, Cliff, and later sort of his brother Fred, Ken, Scott B., John P., others. Robert came up sometimes, this huge, soft spoken black guy who gave off a lot of street cred.
Whatever we did there was always the rigid heirarchy of who was in and out. Who's the best newcomer? Who does Art talk to? Who gets to be called on? Who is your oldcomer - somebody cool, I hope? Whatever natural 'Lord of the Flies' kind of thing we might have was rigidly enforced. I even remmber when Cookie had start over on the front row, and she was right under Libby.
Seven years. Remember Jim Helm? He was one of my favorite people, and if he was part of this, how could it be bad?
OK, more to come later. This is kind of cathartic!
I think that the Seed was extremely clever at developing loyalty and playing with our emotions. I was a pretty rootless 19 year old, and I was really looking for something to belong to. The Seed gave me that, or at least the illusion of it. At some point, I realized that I would never truly belong to it (after all, you can't belong to something that asks you to repress who you are) but I still thought that we were special "changing the world" or "homo superior" as Art used to call it. The Seed was also really great at playing on my insecurities. Because I was a relatively priveleged, white, suburban kid, I was made to feel like the Seed people were more real, that Art's experiences in life were more relevant than mine - that he was a hero, that he had succeeded in society yet removed himself from it so he could be with us.
At some point, the need to be a "perfect seedling" and to remove big parts of my self from public view began to bother me. I wanted to be myself, express my creativity, fall in love, have real friendships that weren't subject to staff approval. I inwardly rebelled for a long time before I left - I knew I was living a lie.
The humiliation that was part of my entry into the program also reinforced the difficulty I had leaving - the body cavity search, being told that I was wrong about everything I'd ever done, that my friends were all bad for me and I was bad for them, that I didn't know how to be a friend, that my family was totally fucked up, that I couldn't make it on my own. Contrast that with being told 'we love you' over and over again, and that my oldcomers were really brilliant at picking up on my needs and fears, and that the staff was really savvy at subtle coercion. Plus, hey, some of the girls were hot, and I wanted them to like me.
And that brings up sex. I guess I had a lot of guilt about my admittedly limited sexual relationships at 19, but the Seed really made me feel like a looser. I remember we were not even supposed to think about sex - remember being told to 'get your head out of the gutter' all the time? I really did make an effort to not think about sex AT ALL - jeez. We played football on the beach with the girls and it was SO HARD to not get that out of your head - they all wore bikinis. I was guilty as charged. After a while I just said fuck it and I became really good at having sexual fantasies during the rap sessions while still formulating a Seed-appropriate response in case I was called on. I think that's when the hyporcrasy of the whole thing fell into place for me and made it much easier to eventually leave.
I entered the Seed progam on August 15, 1978. I had dropped out of college, so depressed I could hardly stand living anymore. I had gone to an Open Meeting in Cleveland and - this was the 70s - there were kids who actually looked happy (it was so cool to look miserable if you were a 19 year old in 1978). I fell for it. Senior staff in Cleveland Scott Barebitski was completely charming, struck me as a hipster, and let me feel like I was in for a real treat if I entered the program. I said 'what the fuck' and before I knew it I was strip searched, all of my 'druggie' clothing was taken away, my hair was cut to military specs, and I was sitting on the front row thinking 'what the fuck have I done?'
Staff at the time was Hank, Bob (a mean guy - I never liked him), and - now I can't remember, an older (like 35) brunette who spoke in a very soft voice and had once had a date with Burt Reynolds. There were some Jr. staff. John Perloff for one. He was a typical product of upper class suburban Cleveland - good looking and smart, but vain about it too I always thought.
Most of the Cleveland oldtimers where real blue collar cleveland types - big guys who worked at Ridge tool or warehouses, and they had hot cars like Camaros or Chevelles (which I always thought was a violation of our 'I'm not supposed to look cool or enjoy material things' vow). Months after I entered (praying to leave every, every day) the whole program moved to Florida, which was cool with me because I had spent happy summers there as a kid. Art and Shelley had come up to Cleveland a few times and I thought his softshoe, old-school jokes and military stories were cool. I was excited about going.
In Florida we had Libby, Cookie, Ginger, and Evie. Libby scared me a little but I thought I understood her 'poor little rich girl' story. Cookie seemed resonable, Evie was nice. But I had a huge crush on Ginger. She was smart, funny and seemed to understand me better that I understood myself. That was definitely used to keep me interested. The guys - Hank from Cleveland, who seemed to leave eventually, Cliff, and later sort of his brother Fred, Ken, Scott B., John P., others. Robert came up sometimes, this huge, soft spoken black guy who gave off a lot of street cred.
Whatever we did there was always the rigid heirarchy of who was in and out. Who's the best newcomer? Who does Art talk to? Who gets to be called on? Who is your oldcomer - somebody cool, I hope? Whatever natural 'Lord of the Flies' kind of thing we might have was rigidly enforced. I even remmber when Cookie had start over on the front row, and she was right under Libby.
Seven years. Remember Jim Helm? He was one of my favorite people, and if he was part of this, how could it be bad?
OK, more to come later. This is kind of cathartic!
410
The Seed Discussion Forum / "Newcomer" to this site
« on: August 30, 2004, 04:27:00 PM »
I have some powerful memories of being in the Cleveland Seed in 1977, transfering to State Rt. 84 facility six months later. I stayed in for seven long years, until escaping in 1986.
From reading posts here, I see that emotions run form deep anger to gratitude. Anyone uninterested in their experience would likely not post.
When I entered I was a really shy, socially awkward college dropout who was clinically depressed and full of anger. My disfunctional family had imploded and my Seedling brother who proceeded me into the program seemed to be really, really happy. I cam in and stayed and he split. It took me seven years to regain enough self-awareness to leave.
My years at the Seed where powerful and emotionally intense. I felt so close to a few key people but really alienated and afraid of those who seemed to have power. I always felt like an outsider and desperately wanted to be a part - the Seed convinced me that my life and sanity depended on it at first - later I just had a hard time admitting I'd made a mistake and I was afraid to leave.
When I did leave, I entered therapy and went to Adult Children of Alcoholics, another cult in a way but by then I had learned my lesson.
Today I am a pretty functional adult.
OK - here's some memories of The Seed 1977-1986 -
Getting up at 5:00 am to be dropped off in some strange house and sleeping on a still warm bed.
Some Cleveland oldcomer who had a '68 Comaro convertible (Cleveland Oldcomers tended to be gearheads - unreformed by the Seed!)
The former Catholic home on Detroit Avenue in Cleveland, full of statues of saints
Moving to Florida, and the huge, vacant rooms in Broward Alligator Alley location full of rows of empty chairs (part of the legend)
Staying up for nightwatch detail at the above location
Swimming at someone's pool
Endless games of baseball SR 84 and football at Hollywoon beach (I hated sports, was bad at them too, and was really bored the entire time - what a waste of my life!)
I formed intense bonds with a couple of people - like best friends, but I realized that I ultimately could never fit in - wasn't 'cool' enough, in Seed terms, to really have juice.
I was one of the Seed 'worker bees' - loyal, quiet, hard working and basically unrewarded
I finally escaped when I woke up one morning at 3:00 am, knowing that I had to leave. I crept out of the house, loaded up my VW Beetle, and drove north. Halfway I changed my mind, and tried to call my Seed house and turn my self in. No answer, thank god, and I awoke and returned to Cleveland.
Sometimes I wonder what happened to Mitch, Brad, Fred, Ginger, Patty, and all my other cohorts. Underneath the cult exterior some of them where really nice people. I imagine they are all Republicans now, they were pretty close then.
The drug days? I hardly used any. Alcohol was my family poison and I had to deal with that. Art was trying to roll back the 60s and at the same time coopt its idealism - that's what George Bush's America is so adept at.
OK, sorry for the politics but I just had to vent. I hope to learn more from this site but it seems hard to navigate. I don't do much of this. Thanks for maintaining this!
From reading posts here, I see that emotions run form deep anger to gratitude. Anyone uninterested in their experience would likely not post.
When I entered I was a really shy, socially awkward college dropout who was clinically depressed and full of anger. My disfunctional family had imploded and my Seedling brother who proceeded me into the program seemed to be really, really happy. I cam in and stayed and he split. It took me seven years to regain enough self-awareness to leave.
My years at the Seed where powerful and emotionally intense. I felt so close to a few key people but really alienated and afraid of those who seemed to have power. I always felt like an outsider and desperately wanted to be a part - the Seed convinced me that my life and sanity depended on it at first - later I just had a hard time admitting I'd made a mistake and I was afraid to leave.
When I did leave, I entered therapy and went to Adult Children of Alcoholics, another cult in a way but by then I had learned my lesson.
Today I am a pretty functional adult.
OK - here's some memories of The Seed 1977-1986 -
Getting up at 5:00 am to be dropped off in some strange house and sleeping on a still warm bed.
Some Cleveland oldcomer who had a '68 Comaro convertible (Cleveland Oldcomers tended to be gearheads - unreformed by the Seed!)
The former Catholic home on Detroit Avenue in Cleveland, full of statues of saints
Moving to Florida, and the huge, vacant rooms in Broward Alligator Alley location full of rows of empty chairs (part of the legend)
Staying up for nightwatch detail at the above location
Swimming at someone's pool
Endless games of baseball SR 84 and football at Hollywoon beach (I hated sports, was bad at them too, and was really bored the entire time - what a waste of my life!)
I formed intense bonds with a couple of people - like best friends, but I realized that I ultimately could never fit in - wasn't 'cool' enough, in Seed terms, to really have juice.
I was one of the Seed 'worker bees' - loyal, quiet, hard working and basically unrewarded
I finally escaped when I woke up one morning at 3:00 am, knowing that I had to leave. I crept out of the house, loaded up my VW Beetle, and drove north. Halfway I changed my mind, and tried to call my Seed house and turn my self in. No answer, thank god, and I awoke and returned to Cleveland.
Sometimes I wonder what happened to Mitch, Brad, Fred, Ginger, Patty, and all my other cohorts. Underneath the cult exterior some of them where really nice people. I imagine they are all Republicans now, they were pretty close then.
The drug days? I hardly used any. Alcohol was my family poison and I had to deal with that. Art was trying to roll back the 60s and at the same time coopt its idealism - that's what George Bush's America is so adept at.
OK, sorry for the politics but I just had to vent. I hope to learn more from this site but it seems hard to navigate. I don't do much of this. Thanks for maintaining this!