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Topics - cleveland

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16
The Seed Discussion Forum / Raps
« on: April 12, 2005, 01:41:00 PM »
I am posting this from Straight. It's about Raps and written by a staff member, apparently. It covers the range or Raps and is entirely applicable to my Seed experience, minus the physical violence (which in my time at the Seed amounted to aggressive finger poking, a shove from behind to 'sit up straight,' threatening body language and being told 'you weren't shit.' Other than that, everyone was very nice!

Here it is:

"This was written by someone else, I don't know who. I really hope they don't mind if I post it here, if they do I can take it down. Read at your own risk.

Some more about rap structure and the process of rap's :

Types of Raps
Past/Present/Future- This was the most common of the therapeutic
raps. There would be a basic theme or concept. For instance, staff
might come in to the front of the group and ask someone to relate
about a time in their past when they failed to do what they had said
they would do. Everyone would start to motivate, a noisy proposition,
and staff would call on a oldcomer to set a good tone for the rap.
Then staff would relate a little to what they said,and then a couple
more oldcomers. Eventually once the idea was established
staff would start calling on newcomers. People who did not relate with
specific personal and heartfelt information would be confronted.
Staff would call on someone else in the group to carry out the
confrontation. Staff would lead the group into relating about the
present. This might provide them a window to ask a person who had
failed in a commitment the prior day-just why did it happened ? This
kind of planned confrontation was daily. The Rap would end on
positive note, with staff leading the group to discuss
goals or dreams about fulfilling commitments in the future.

Confrontation- The "volcano" was a favorite confrontation rap. There
were many similar concepts. The basic idea is to get one or two
people to describe exploding, or the things that a volcano does, then
start to call on the people targeted for confrontation. These were
people who were anything short of 100% compliant and enthusiastic
about the program. These raps often led to extensive verbal assault
and physical battery. Confrontation raps were almost always with a
couple of Sr. Staff or higher in the room, or possibly leading the
group. They might also participate from the back of the
group.

Review- There were only a couple of review raps as I remember it. One
was rules rap, a daily recitation of the entire litany of rules
including memorization of all the names and positions on the chain of
command. The other common review rap was after the open meetings on
Friday and Monday nights.

Off The Wall- If the group was in a good place we would at times be
treated to an off the wall rap. This might include breaking up into
groups and working on role playing projects.

Core Idea- This rap was "grown from a core statement or central
thought".Avoiding chronological development staff would lead the
group in the process of taking "the pearl" and add layer after layer
of insight and perception to it before the rap draws to a close.

Work Groups- Splitting into triads or larger groups to allow each
small group work as a team to build a project or skit. This is more
of a technique than a kind of rap as it can be integrated in many rap-
types.

Instructional- Some review raps are instructional, often morning rap
is instructional, the point of the rap is to educate. Virtually all
basics raps were instructional. RSC or RSA raps were instructional.
Kind of self-explanatory.

Introduction- Staff could choose to do their own introduction to the
group as the basis for a rap. They could answer questions about their
own lives and pasts as a way to build trust with the group.

Basics- A basics rap was about the seven steps and the other *tools*
of change that the program offered. They avoided confrontation and
personal issues. Staff would keep the pace fast and the relating
brief. However, it should be noted that any rap about "honesty" could
start off as basics and end up confrontational. It was the staff
members call, it could change directions in the time it took for a
fifth phaser to hand in a Chain of Command report.

Love Rap- Generally every night rap was some variety of love rap.
Confrontation was avoided; focus was on changes of the day, setting
goals and other positive concepts. Misbehavers were often carried out
to the intake rooms for these positive raps. Love raps were mushy
tear filled events where people who had been carving in their own
arms all day would stand up and cry from the stress. These
emotionally battered children would promise to change the following
day and start the whole process over again in the morning.
Daily Rap Structure Basics-The object is warming up the group &
getting them to start thinking about the steps again. Focus them, get
them started motivating, do an early assessment for the mood of the
group. Label trouble points and correct seating arrangements. Rap
solely focused on basics of the program. Avoid confrontation or
personal issues.

Morning Rap- A quick paced shallow rap about the past habits ties and
friends. A fast paced process of demonizing anything that was part of
the clients life prior to the program. Clothing, foods, behaviors,
thoughts and every other aspect of the "past" was demeaned
repeatedly. Morning rap was to set the mood for the day - compulsive
confession. On open meeting days this slot was filled with Homes Rap.

Guys & Girls Rap- Much more personal rap, with one staff member
typically of the same gender as the group. These raps involved
intense pressure to discuss sexual topics. Confession of the most
horrific sexual thoughts was encouraged. Guys talked about their
natural random homo-erotic thoughts as if they were demons that were
part of the druggie world coming to drag them into relapse. Girls
talked about how they were sluts in their pasts and confessed to
having sluttish desires towards the guys in the group, again,
as part of the drug problem. Guys talked about being "losers" in their
pasts, and "losers" in their current school/work environments outside
the program.. These raps were often highly confrontational, and
regularly degraded into physical violence for both sexes.

Exercise Rap- Staff Trainees typically led this rap, though at times
it was a fifth or fourth phaser. The exercises were always performed
with no warm up or cool down process. We were always on a hard floor.
We often did exercises that were really damaging to our bodies. The
worst were the forced leg lifts, often mixed with aggressive verbal
assault and physical battery. I remember people jogging in place
barefoot, or in otherwise poor footwear for such high-impact
exercise. I have li ttle doubt that this practice caused
physical damage to many of clients. If you think about it for a
minute,prisons can't do this to people, and schools have to have a
licensed instructor, and even then it has to be voluntary. This was
daily forced exercise without regard for the potential damage. The
objective was simple-get the group worked up before confrontation rap
of the day.

Afternoon Rap- The most confrontational rap slot of the day. This was
oftena period of two solid hours of loud aggressive verbal assaults
along with physical battery. Afternoon rap was a sweaty inferno in
the Georgia summer.These raps would attract senior staff and the
group staff supervisor. These were people who were highly skilled at
verbal assault and manipulation.Afternoon rap was the tear down point
of the day for the newcomers. They were faced with the waves of
oldcomers arriving from school and work,flaunting their freedom.
These so called examples would then spend the late afternoon and
evening hours relating to the group, confronting newcomers and
doing the grunt work of operating the program. Newcomers were brought
to understand over time that if they simply confessed to being a drug
addict,and learned to believe it, they too could be a part of this
elite group & free from the hell of being a newcomer. On open meeting
days this slot was filled with Executive Rap.

Night Rap- Almost always a love rap of some sort, the idea was to send
everyone home thinking about themselves and how lucky they were to be
alive and in straight. Night rap often included turning the lights
down low, staff members telling their own stories, lots of tears,
slow songs etc. Bring the kids down from being abused each night
before you send them home.What is a Rap ? For my own part a rap was a
period of two hours or longer, in a group of 100-300 people, getting
motivated and if called upon, standing up and trying to relate to the
rap topic in a way that would win me group approval. Once I got into
staff training I learned more about how the raps were structured
and what their purposes were as I have written above, but that still
does not seem to answer the question, what is a rap ?

It is nearly impossible to explain the level of emotional pressure
developed within the group. A rap was always focused on addiction and
recovery, even an off the wall rap would end with a serious note
about addiction and the risk of ending up dead or in jail. Raps are
about the entire group changing,not just individuals. An individual
revelation in a rap can be therapeutic or traumatic for everyone in
the room. Raps were a chance for staff and upper phasers to use
information they had about newcomers against them, with
the goal of changing these peoples minds.

Raps are very structured group conversations. Staff would pick and
choose who they called on in group based on knowledge of how that
person will relate to a rap topic. Trusted higher phasers, especially
fourth and fifth phasers were exected to set the example of relating
in a manner that obtained group approval. Group approval was only
offered for people who had come to accept themselves as insane, and
in need of God. The deceptive and generic term higher powers is often
put forth as a denial of the religious nature of the program. It is
merely smoke and mirrors. Newcomers are coerced through intense group
pressures into relating in the same way. Relating in anyway that is
off the topic or focus of the rap will result in prompt
verbal assault and potentially physical battery. The process of
confession and conformity was central to the program and raps were
planned to elicit as many confessions as possible from group
memebers. The ultimate goal was to elicit complete self disclosure,
the sharing of ones innermost thoughts,darkest ideas and deepest
fears. Revelation of these normally hidden but natural human emotions
and fears in such a traumatic and stressful manner left the kid in a
state best described as an emotional sponge. If you truly
want to find out how this feels, go to work tommorrow, stand up in the
middle of the cubicle farm, and profess loudly and tearfully your most
deeply hidden secret or fear, that one thing that you would really
rather no one ever knew - like having sex with a relative, touching
your dogs genitals when you were 8 years old etc. Everyone has them,
we all grew up on the same planet. Try it, see if you like it. To get
the full effect be sure there are at least 100 people around, and get
them all to yell "we love you" at you when you are done. Complete the
process by sitting down and flailing your arms and upper body around
wildly for the next 12 hours without speaking again all day. Please
let me know how it goes via E-mail.


Kids, don't try this at home and all standard disclaimers for this
kind of example apply Raps were the only way that a newcomer was
allowed to communicate for twelve hours a day. A newcomer who did not
get motivated would not be called on and could go the entire day
without being permitted to speak. A newcomer who spoke out in group,
without the permission of the staff, would quickly be battered, at
the hands of those around them, If the surrounding clients were
not agressive enough in enforcement, a staff member would incite them
to physically assault a newcomer who was not motivating and relating
appropiately in a rap. Someone would put their hand over the
newcomers mouth and try to gag the person. If there was any
resistance to this battery, the newcomer would then be further
battered, restrained, and perhaps thrown to the ground and sat upon-
all for the act of speaking. There was no avenue of recourse for the
newcomer. Most often in a few weeks or months the same
newcomer would be apologizing for "forcing the group to restrain me
for my own good, to protect me from my twisted drug habit of speaking
out without permission", or some such programmed lingo-drivel.

Raps were the core control feature, raps were the entire day, even
dinner and lunch were referred to as raps. During meals we would be
objects of ridicule if we did not put our food down to get motivated
to speak each time we had the chance. Raps were constant, they were
woven together with the Straight Inc. songs, they never seemed to
end. There was no "recess".



Rap Topics and Outlines I can Remember
The Cliche Rap - A particular Sr. Staff member did a really smoking
cliche rap that stands out in early 1984. The idea was to get people
into relating in really cliche based statements, leading the group
into the use of cliches by relating as a Sr. Staff in a pat short
shallow way. As the group gets into the cliches and people use more
and more of them, then you ask them what is a cliche ? then start
asking some problem oldcomers to explain cliches in their programs
etc...it turns into a raucous confrontational game, you see as people
talk in cliches trying to deny that they are doing so, Staff would
call on someone who is frantically trying to get the chance
to confront the first person. This second individual is waving their
hand in the air attempting to manipulate the staff in any way
possible to be the one to confront, and when called on starts to use
a new set of cliches to confront with, so the staff gets to call
them down with a third phaser standing up , and so on till you get
four or five people all standing. The last one up has to be the first
to finish, and ach one in turn has to eat their words and be publicly
humiliated and humbled."

17
The Seed Discussion Forum / Cult and cult-like experiences
« on: February 22, 2005, 11:03:00 AM »
I've been thinking of all of the cult and cult-like experiences I've had, both before and after the Seed. Here's a short list:

1. An elementary school friend told be I would 'go to hell' unless I accepted Jesus. My family was not very religious, so I argued with him. I thought he was crazy and I still have a hard time with religious fanatics.  

2. High School sports. I was a 'freak,' and the jocks had a very tight culture that I was resentful of - they had special privileges and status. From outside view, this was a cultish group.

3. Drug culture. At the same time, I became aware of the whole drug culture thing, which to me had the attraction of being an anti-jock thing. Unfortunately for me, the jocks were co-opting the drug scene, so getting high was less attractive to me. I really wanted to be a part of the hippy generation, but in the '70s, this was just becoming a style thing...

4. Nichren Shonen 'buddhism,' which is still huge but has a different name. I don't think it's buddhism at all, but a cult. A lot of kids got into this in Shaker Heights, the wealthy Cleveland suburb, and I knew someone involved. I was invited to their 'open meeting,' and in retrospect, it was a LOT like the Seed - emotional testimonials of 'before' and 'after,' belief the they 'had it' and outsiders didn't, and the general 'happy happy' vibe...I bought a Gahonzon (sp? - a scroll of 'Nam Yo Ho Renge Kyo') to chant to...thought that was cool but I never went back.

5. Leaving the Seed, I joined Adult Children of Alcoholics - trying to make sense of my family. While less cult-like than the previous listings, it still had elements of group think, but pretty mild in my experience.

6. Multi-level marketing. I had a friend who took me to yet another 'open meeting,' this one for some scheme. The room was packed with people who hoped to get rich, and were sure to be disappointed.

7. About 10-15 years ago, I had a bunch of acquaintences who were going to sessions of The Forum, which I understand to be EST. They were all artists, so I wouldn't think they'd get sucked in, but they were and I lost touch with them.

8. About 10 years ago, a very good friend of mine got involved with a group called 'Understanding Yourself and Others.' To me, this seemed like EST and I was SO glad when he left, though he still speaks fondly of the experince, he agrees that it is/was a cult.

9. My high school buddies. Duh - we said we would die for each other and we almost meant it. No wonder kids join gangs - we were looking for a tight bond and we weren't getting it from our families.

10. I had  very low-level job in corporate america for a while, and our staff meetings were very cultish - rah rah company! I could hardly wait to leave.

11. I forgot about the boy scouts - I went to about 10 meetings as a kid and it just scared me. We didn't really do any camping or other cool stuff, we just waved flags and yelled and I hated it...

12. Art School. Kind of cultish too, but also interesting and fun...glad I did it even though I am not an active artist right now...

That's it. Do others have cult/near-cult experiences? I think it's very much a part of our culture and important to recognize it for what it is. Ever been to a political event? I didn't list that but watch Fox news for two seconds and it's a cult, no doubt...


Wally Gator[ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2005-02-22 08:13 ]

18
Feed Your Head / Ha-Ha
« on: January 27, 2005, 11:08:00 PM »
Recently read The Ha-Ha by Dave King. Great story, you feel good after reading it. The main character is a man who lost the ability to speak or read in Vietman, and how his life changes when his ex-girlfriend (pre-injury) dumps her 9 year old son on him, and he learn how to have a life. Something about it...

Also, for drinking, read Dry by Augustin Burroughs. He's pretty close to AA, but also very honest, so it opens it up...

And read GENERATION KILL, for christsakes!

No ISBN, sorry, but google the titles and it's all there...

wally gator

19
The Seed Discussion Forum / Impact on my family
« on: January 10, 2005, 09:53:00 AM »
Last night, I started to think about the impact of the Seed program on my family. There were many direct consequences of my imvolvement. First of all, my younger brother was 'on the front row' before me. I came home from college and soon joined him, so impressed was I with his dramatic transformation. My younger sister, who was finishing high school, thought we were both crazy although she was willing to believe that we 'needed' the program.

Of course, I never said anything at all to her besides, "I am happy now, happier than I've ever been. And if you want to be happy too, you will do the right thing and get into the Seed. Outside of that, I really don't have anything to say to you. I love you."

Can you imagine? My sister and I had been really close, and here I am, essentially cutting all ties with her unless she gets 'straight.'

Eventually, my brother drifted away from the Seed while I continued to be closely involved. Nothing dramatic. Our contacts were few and far between, as he was living with my mother out of state and still in High School.

My parents, who were divorced, I saw infrequently. In seven years, I saw my father about 5 or 6 times when he would visit Florida - I saw my mother about 3 or 4 times. My grandmother visited Florida twice and I came up to Cleveland to see her in the hospital. That's it. I saw my sister not at all, or really my cousins, and we'd been really close too.

So, essentially, the Seed destroyed my family. We maintained the appearance of being a family but it was merely formalities - a couple of awkward visits with no connection. I would just tell them  how 'great' I was doing, and that was it. No self disclosure, no doubts, no deep conversations. And my 'druggie' sister I shunned completely.

When I finally left the Seed, imagine my surprize at my sister's anger. And my brother's distance. My father said that I had been a 'zombie' when I was at the Seed; my mother still wanted to believe that she had done the right thing.

I had been gone from the age of 19 to 26. It took a long time to recover some feeling of family, to deal with our issues together and heal. But in a lot of ways, it was too late.

20
The Seed Discussion Forum / Group Think
« on: January 05, 2005, 11:49:00 AM »
If you look on the other forums here, it won't take too long before you find a similar story...someone claiming this of that Program helped them, while others will claim it was the work of the Devil...

My personal view is that when you deliberately stress people out, confront them with their faults and weaknesses in a group setting, make them emotionally vulnerable and confess their weaknesses, and finally have them swear allegience to either the the leader or the group itself...and dedicate themselves to spreading this message...

Some will seemingly achieve big life changes - seemingly a 'miracle.' Some will reject it and leave. Others will stay for a bit, then move on. Point is, what happens years down the road? Why do we need to use this way to achieve change, if it even works, these techniques can create monsters too (Hitler Youth?)

Isn't there a better way to change your life?

Personally, I think so, but it is hard work. I don't really believe in 'miracles'...just the long slow work of changing yourself for the better...

21
The Seed Discussion Forum / The Common Denominator
« on: December 30, 2004, 10:49:00 AM »
For the past few months, after learning a lot about my particular experience with The Seed, and then learning about other programs, past and present, from this site and others, I feel compelled to try to isolate the essence of this experience, what makes it so powerful, seductive, defendable, and potentially dangerous.

It seems that the first goal of all of these programs is to make the individual compliant and responsive to authority. The second goal, is to make 'the program' the most important thing in the individual's life. The third goal is to enshroud the entire process in secrecy, and to divide the world into those who 'get it,' and those who 'just don't get it.' The final goal is to try to get everyone else to 'get it.'

These four goals interact with one another. They reinforce each other.

Individually, they seem like good things. When a kid is 'out of control,' or an adult is 'in the throes of addition,' isn't it good to repect authority and to be compliant? And if the 'program' shows you the way, aren't you correct in being grateful? And aren't you right to reject or hold at arms length, all of those old friends 'out there' who dragged you down, or your fucked up family - even the 'outside world' itself, with all of it's problems? And isn't it right to be secretive, because remember the full light of 'the program' was only revealed to you in stages, before you yourself 'got it?' And now, being saved, being grateful, and having 'got it,' don't you wish everyone did - friends, family and coworkers, and woe to those who don't, poor fools.

But isn't this a strange little world you're in? No room for dissent, rational thought, freedom? Isn't it a bit like 1984 that you read when you were a rebellious teen, with its Big Brother and its Anti-Sex League, its Double Speak and its 'love' and brutality?

And even years later, after you've left the Mormon Church, of the Moonies, or Scientology, or the Seed, aren't you kind of embarrassed about how devoted you were? Isn't it really hard to explain to others, now that you've rejoined the world? And besides, weren't you responsible because of your own shameful problems, and didn't you need the help? Everyone needs a little help from time to time - perhaps the ends justifies the means, and what's so bad about a little old-fashioned discipline, or a little love, anyway.

Or maybe you're angry. Fuck them, assholes. I don't even want to think about it. I'm embarrassed to see my shining, happy blissed out face, on the front row or in the pew or in 'the rooms' or whatever. Fuck them, fuck you for asking.

I don't care if it's the Seed, AA, CEDU, Straight, KIDS, or behaviour mod boarding schools. And it's also not to deny that some programs are 'better' and some 'worse.' They all do the same things. That seems to be the routine, and why it's so hard for us to talk about it rationally today.

22
The Seed Discussion Forum / The Source
« on: December 29, 2004, 02:10:00 PM »
I think we Seed kids tend to think of our experiences as unique. By reading other areas of this site, I've come to find that the Seed has been replicated and has many names. In fact, the whole thinking of the Seed permeates a lot of our self-help culture, especially in business and in seminars.

Well, if you want to be brought up to date, you can read The Source, a magazine that is full of canned testimonials from kids and parents who are involved in one of many locked-down, behaviour modification schools operating all over the world. It's like being at an Open Meeting! The content, language and attitudes are exactly the same!

http://www.thesource4parents.com/

23
The Seed Discussion Forum / The kids are alright?
« on: December 27, 2004, 01:31:00 PM »
So the debate rages on this forum and others - what to do with kids with problems? What to do with adults with problems? What to do when it's a personal problem?

Remember when Homer Simpson says, "Ah, alcohol - the source of, and the solution for, all of man's problems!" It's true, isn't it - drugs, alcohol, religion, sex, gambling, food - our solution for life's problems can be traps in their own right. What about when the solutions for these solutions become subject to their own traps - fundamentalism, cultism, hero worship, 12-step addiction?

Everyone seems to have their own pet answer - Prozac, yoga, God, "Three Strikes Your Out," Just Say No, abstinence education, boot camps - whatever you currently believe 'everyone' should be doing - doesn't it seem like we've all gone mad?

24
The Seed Discussion Forum / Radical Idea
« on: December 21, 2004, 09:39:00 AM »
I think that studies have shown that a certain number of people who abuse drugs/alcohol will just stop at some point without any other intervention. Some people will never stop, and perhaps die from it or suffer in other ways; some will become moderate users but stop abusing - all on their own.

However, some people will join AA, a church or the Marines - or the Seed - or in some other way try to get help for their problem.

The radical idea is - that the percentage of people who stop and get better, get worse and die, or just slow down, is THE SAME in both groups.

How does this relate to us, fellow Seedlings, if this is true? Well, it means that the arguments about the Seed helping people (Jimmy, Trucker, etc.), or hurting people (Ginger, Greg), may be true for certain individuals, but the statistics for all of us are the same.

Now one group can talk about people who got better in the Seed, and another group of people can talk about people who got worse, but the numbers are the SAME - some get better, some get worse, some stay the same.

I don't know if this is true for the Seed, but I have read that it's true for AA. Maybe it really is up to us after all, to get happy and stay happy - Seed or no Seed.

What do you all thnk of this?

25
The Seed Discussion Forum / Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind
« on: December 16, 2004, 04:22:00 PM »
I don't know, that just seems to fit...


Not that I was in a zombie brainswashed state. On the other hand, I wasn't exercising my full free will either. So, here I will try to get a sense of inside the Seed mind...so let's go back 20 years, and imagine what's going through my head...

So it's a Rap. Relationships, Gratitute, First Things First - whatever. I'm in my early 20s, I graduated a couple of years ago, but I live and work with other Seed graduates and come into the Raps at the end of the day.

So there I am. Listening to somebody relate - tell their story, within a certain proscribed formula - basically, everything I did before the Seed sucked, I was a dumbass/fuckup, but now, thanks to Art and the Seed, I am happy and grateful - not that I'm a 'super-seedling' or anything!' Within the confines of these limits, different people told different stories. One might be a girl who was 'into acceptance' with her 'old druggie friends' and 'would do anything' to get high (slut?). One might be a guy who says,
'there was nothing I wouldn't do to anyone - nothing. Not that I was no badass, or anything like that, but I just didn't give a shit.'(junkie?) Or, there might be the funny guy, who would talk about what a pretty boy, redneck, dumbass, or hick he or she had been, and make you laugh, or the super emotional person who would always, ALWAYS, start to cry (and make you want to cry too). Anyway, I'm sitting there, and some of this is really funny, or sad, or moving - it's entertaining. It's also sort of limiting, because nobody ever actually says 'I was a junkie' (because that might be trying to be cool) or 'I was a slut' (because that might be titillating). And nobody ever talks about how they disagree with anyone else, or disagree witht the Seed pholisophy, ideas, lifestyle. To do so is ungrateful and 'fucked up.'

So I'm sitting there, and I'm thinking - why am I still here? I'm not stupid. I realize that the Seed requires me to do certain things I don't agree with - oversimplify everything, limit contact with 'non-Seedlings,' ask permission to date or go to school - but I comply. Why? My thinking might go like this...

"Hmmm, I'd really like to go to school someday. I could probably get decent grades. But, staff's never told me that's something to think about. In fact, they seem to think that I'm sort of inclined to 'get into my head' about that kind of thing, and I know they're right. I used to think I was so smart and all, and look where it got me. Oh well. Besides, do I want to be like my parents - like my career and what I do means anything anyway? Well, I guess I'll wait. I think I'm just being selfish - I should just focus on the newcomers. And I'm also probably getting my 'head all out of whack,' thinking I'm special or something. I wish I could be grateful and cry like some people do. But I'm still kind of into my head - I'm sort of weird, really. Maybe some day I'll be like everyone else...maybe some day, I'll get asked to be on staff or something anyway, that would be amazing...but maybe I'm just being too into acceptance...after all, 'ours is not to reason why, ours is but to do or die' as some seed person once told me...Oh, that girl I really like is talking...I wonder if she ever thinks of me? Maybe I'm allowing myself to get into my head about it...but I seem to think of her all the time...maybe some day...the other day, she looked at me and smiled when she was serving coolaid...I don't know, it seemed special...but I'm probably fooling myself...shit, we're going outside to play baseball. That means I'll stand in the outfield while all the good players, who are on Art's team, will have fun and win. Too bad sports are important here, too, just like Junior High all over again...but why am I being so ungrateful? After all, I am learning to get better, a little anyway...I hate it when everybody cheers for me when I strike out, it's nice but then I feel even worse...I hate it when people feel sorry for me. To bad the things I'm good at never seem to count...I'm so weird...I have to stop thinking that way...Oh wow, here comes Art, wonder if he'll smile at me - yes! He did! I think he knows I'm trying so hard. I'm sure he doesn't think I'm very special - I never get asked to be on his team, or sit at the side of the group like some special people do - I think they're like Junior staff? I don't know. 'Ours is but too do or die...'

Alright, that's about the extent of my thinking, over and over for seven years...is that good or bad? I don't know. That was just my life, my inner dialog, my attempt to be a good seedling.

26
The Seed Discussion Forum / Anybody remember the Rules?
« on: December 15, 2004, 01:56:00 PM »
OK, sit up straight in your seat, make sure your smokes are at the ready in your pocket, keep your eyes on the speaker (even if s/he is right behind you and you have to twist your neck completely around)...it's time for The Rules!

So make sure your attitude is right, and your out of your freakin' head for once, raise your hand - and let's hear some enthusiasm! OK? Who wants to go first...

27
The Seed Discussion Forum / Post Seed Relationships
« on: December 14, 2004, 02:45:00 PM »
I wanted to see if this topic might be of interest. I wonder how many people might have had post-Seed issues with forming romantic relationships.

I assume it would be different for different people, depending on your age and circumstance.

For myself, 7 years as a Seedling, with rigid hierarchy and sex roles, had not prepared me well for life post-Seed. At the age of 26 I left the Seed, and my last 'date' had been when I was 18! (Also the last time I'd had any kind of meaningful friendship with someone of the opposite sex).

I had re-enrolled in college, and was very slowly building new friendships with people, but I was very careful about what I said about my past - "Oh, I was living in Florida and hanging out with friends, trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life, I guess." I did a lot of things I would NEVER have done in my 'druggie' past, that's for sure - singing in the college glee club, writing for the college paper - I would have been afraid that those things weren't cool - now I didn't care (thank you Seed for showing me both sides of 'being cool!). But I was in danger of becoming that shy, serious older student your mother warned you about. I needed to date! The loneliness was killing me. When I summoned the courage to ask someone out, it was inevitable - I 'fell in love' with the first women who said yes. When I summoned the courage to tell her about my Seed past, it really changed everything - I think she always saw me as some kind of a freak. I'm afraid this happened more than once. Of course I had lots of non-Seed issues here too - can't blame Art for everything!

I think the Seed prepared me to be a friend - I know a lot about how people thought and I knew a TON about peer pressure and acceptance (thanks Seed!) but I really didn't know jack about male/female relationships.

The Seed had strictly segregated men from women, so I had no recent experience with friendship with women, let alone 'relationships.'

Oh, another thing - the Seed didn't deal well at all with the possibility that some of the Seedlings might be gay - there was kind of a macho culture. Since sex of any kind (except in marriages sanctioned by Art, of which I knew of exactly three in my time) was out of the question, I can only imagine what someone struggling with sexual identity went through.

Just wondering what others may have experienced...

28
The Seed Discussion Forum / Cults and Conspiracies
« on: December 03, 2004, 10:40:00 AM »
There's a lot of information about cults and conspiracy that gets tossed around on this site, and I must confess, it's confusing and i think distracts from the truth of our experience. So I did a little web search and found some interesting information under Mind Control in the Skeptic's Dictionaly (www.skepdic.com). Here it is:

"To change a person's basic personality and character, to get them to behave in contradictory ways to lifelong patterns of behavior, to get them to alter their basic beliefs and values, would not necessarily count as mind control. It depends on how actively a person participates in their own transformation. You and I might think that a person is out of his mind for joining Scientology, Jehova's Witnesses, or Jim Roberts' The Brethren, but their "crazy beliefs and behaviors" are no wilder than the ones that millions of mainstream religious believers have chosen to accept and engage in.

Some recruits into non-mainstream religions seem to be brainwashed and controlled to the point that they will do great evil to themselves or others at the behest of their leader, including murder and suicide. Some of these recruits are in a state of extreme vulnerability when they are recruited and their recruiter takes advantage of that vulnerability. Such recruits may be confused or rootless due to ordinary transition difficulties (such as new college students), difficult life circumstances (such as failing in college or at a new job), or even tragic personal events (such as death to close friends or loved ones) or world events (such as war or terrorism). Some may be mentally ill or emotionally disturbed, greatly depressed, traumatized by self-abuse with drugs or abuse at the hands of others, etc. But it would not be to the advantage of the cult to actively recruit the emotionally disturbed. As one cult recruiter told me

Cults have complicated ideologies and practices that mentally or emotionally upset people have difficulty grasping. These structures are what allow the cult to control the person. Cults do not want people who are difficult to control.

Thus, while some recruits might be very vulnerable to those who would like to control their thoughts and actions, recruiters look for people they can make vulnerable. The recruiter quoted above also said

Cults seek out strong, intelligent, idealistic people. They also seek out the rich, no matter what their mental status is.

The goal is make the recruits vulnerable, to get them to give up whatever control over their thoughts and actions they might have. The goal is to make the cult members feel like passengers on a rudderless ship on a stormy sea. The recruiter or cult leader has a rudder and only he can guide the ship to safety.

The techniques available to manipulate the vulnerable are legion. One technique is to give them the love they feel they do not get elsewhere. Convince them that through you and your community they can find what they're looking for, even if they haven't got a clue that they're looking for anything. Convince them that they need faith in you and that you have faith in them. Convince them that their friends and family outside the group are hindrances to their salvation. Isolate them. Only you can give them what they need. You love them. You alone love them. You would die for them. So why wouldn't they die for you?  But, love alone can only get you so far in winning them over. Fear is a great motivator. Fear that if they leave they'll be destroyed. Fear that if they don't cooperate they'll be condemned. Fear that they can't make it in this miserable world alone. The manipulator must make the recruit paranoid.

Love and fear may not be enough, however; so guilt must be used, too. Fill them with so much guilt that they will want to police their own thoughts. Remind them that they are nothing alone, but with you and God (or some Power or Technique) they are Everything. Fill them with contempt for themselves, so that they will want to be egoless, selfless, One with You and Yours. You not only strip them of any sense of self, you convince them that the ideal is be without a self. Keep up the pressure. Be relentless. Humiliate them from time to time. Soon they will consider it their duty to humiliate themselves. Control what they read, hear, see. Repeat the messages for eyes and ears. Gradually get them to make commitments, small ones at first, then work your way up until you own their property, their bodies, their souls. And don't forget to give them drugs, starve them, or have them meditate or dance or chant for hours at a time until they think they've had some sort of mystical experience. Make them think, "It was you, Lord, who made me feel so good." They won't want to give it up. They have never felt so good. Though they look as if they are in Hell to those of us on the outside, from the inside it looks like Heaven.

What religion doesn't use guilt and fear to get people to police their own thoughts? Even some therapists use similar methods to control their patients. They prey on the vulnerable. They demand total loyalty and trust as a price for hope and healing. They often isolate their prey from loved ones and friends. They try to own and control their clients. The methods of recruiters are not much different. Are the recruits, the converts to the faith, and the patients willing victims? How would we tell the difference between a willing victim and an unwilling victim? If we cannot do that, then we can't distinguish any true cases of mind control.

Recruiters and other manipulators are not using mind control unless they are depriving their victims of their free will. A person can be said to be deprived of his free will by another only if that other has introduced a causal agent which is irresistible. How could we ever demonstrate that a person's behavior is the result of irresistible commands given by a religious, spiritual, or personal growth leader? It is not enough to say that irrational behavior proves a person's free will has been taken from them. It may be irrational to give away all one's property, or to devote all one's time and powers to satisfying the desires of one's divine leader, or to commit suicide or plant poison bombs in subways because ordered to do so, but how can we justify claiming such irrational acts are the acts of mindless robots? For all we know, the most bizarre, inhumane, and irrational acts done by the recruits are done freely, knowingly and joyfully. Perhaps they are done by brain damaged or insane people. In either case, such people would not be victims of mind control.

Finally, it is widely believed that the Chinese were successful in brainwashing American prisoners of war during the Korean War. The evidence that their tactics of torture, isolation, sensory deprivation, etc., were successfully used to control the minds of their captives is non-existent. Very few (22 of 4,500 or 0.5%) of those captured by the Chinese went over to the other side (Sutherland 1979, 114). The myth of success by the Chinese is primarily due to the work of Edward Hunter, whose Brainwashing in Red China: the Calculated Destruction of Men's Minds (New York: Vanguard Press, 1951) is still referred to by those who see mind control tactics as a major menace today. The CIA provided most of Hunter?s fodder in their effort to inspire hatred of the North Koreans and communism, to explain why some American soldiers didn?t hate the enemy, and ?to aggrandize their own role by arguing that they themselves must investigate brainwashing techniques in order to keep up with the enemy? (Sutherland 1979, 114).

It seems then, that if we define mind control as the successful control of the thoughts and actions of another without his or her  consent, mind control exists only in fantasy. Unfortunately, that does not mean that it will always be thus."

So, in my view, The Seed used techniques to alter the behavior and thoughts of it's clients. Some of them today on this site struggle with how much of their participation was voluntary or not; the answer is not an easy one and I hope the quote above helps people come to terms with what they went through - before, during and after their experiences at the Seed.

29
The Seed Discussion Forum / Danger
« on: November 18, 2004, 04:32:00 PM »
This site has really begun to take off, I am enjoying the postings and the spirit of the participants.

As I read, I feel a sense of community evolve. It's wonderful, but I also am reminded how dangerous that great sense of belonging can be. How easy then it is to exploit, or to exclude, or to feel better than others.

I wonder if Art, as an addict in early recover, had that sense of joy and thought, now I get it? And eventually, he bacame stuck with the idea that he knew better, that it's 'my way or the highway'? And then the promise of the early ideals is lost.

Closed systems don't function. Life seems to demand that we stay open.

I don't buy the conspiracy theories voiced elsewhere on this site. It may be true that the Seed model developed in some underground bunker, but I doubt it. I think it's just ideas that were out there, it fit the times, and there was money and energy available. It's probably also true that power and influence was a part of the equation - but a plot to enslave the citizens and make them docile? Really???

I just think the danger is not the conspiracy but in human nature. We need to constantly challenge power and help the dissidents have a voice.

(Soapbox Warning!)

30
The Seed Discussion Forum / Talent Shows
« on: October 22, 2004, 01:28:00 PM »
Singing was a big part of things as noted elsewhere on this site. Arm in arm, singing songs like 'Greensleaves' (The Seed Indeed, Is All You Need, to Stay Off the Junk and the Pills and the Weed) or Stevie Wonder's 'Moving On.'

When Art was in the group, he might call up Hank or Randy or someone else with a good voice to sing a duet or perform a song. 'Fly Me to the Moon' or 'Bye Bye Blackbird.' Sometimes a 'Druggie' song would make the cut like 'Blackwater' by the (believe it or not) Doobie Brothers. I'm sure the first time some kid sang this the senior staff anxiously waited for Art to smile approval - likely he didn't know the origin of the song and it was fun so - OK, it made the cut.

I'm guessing the year but in 1980 or so, there were about 25 graduates hanging about the Seed and there were few or no newcomers, so Art devised this Talent Contest which kids rehearsed for weeks. An actual room was rented at some hotel, we had cabaret tables with candles, I think and probably soft drinks, and kids performed. BUT, instead of the usual stuff that Art sanctioned which might have been seen on the Jackie Gleason Show when I was a kid, this stuff was pretty outrageous. The 'Guys' and 'Chicks' had separately rehearsed and then performed them. They were crazy. This is before the guys and girls spent anytime together playing football or whatever and we lived completely segregated lives, and the guys come out in full costume and do 'YMCA' by the village people, followed by the girls doing some other wild song adn dance, complete with risque costumes and performer's names like 'Poke Your Hontas' (Pocahontas). I was in the audience and remember being shocked, jealous, excited, angry and confused. This seemed to mock all of my efforts to keep my mind out of the gutter completely, but it was also very funny and the kids performing got into it. There was so much sexual tension in the room I thought it was going to explode. I remember thinking, we shouldn't be doing this but then Art was laughing his ass off and soon after we started to play coed football and around the same time there were the first one or two Seed marriages that I remember so I guess the cat was out of the bag.

For those of us not in on the joke it was kind of cruel, but also exciting. You can't imagine the impact; it was like an explosion, and people talked about this for years.

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