Fornits

Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Straight, Inc. and Derivatives => Topic started by: exsafecounselor on October 30, 2003, 05:29:00 PM

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on October 30, 2003, 05:29:00 PM
As bad as I feel for everyone's individual family situation, I can not help but simply say that have got it all wrong.  During the time that I worked there, I was proud of the work I did with kids.  I have not worked there for several years and I still have parents and kids contact me thanking me for how there lives are better.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: kaydeejaded on October 30, 2003, 09:32:00 PM
that is called brainwashing dude


 :wstupid:

Bureaucracy defends the status quo long past the time when the quo has lost its status
--Laurence J. Peter

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Froderik on October 30, 2003, 09:36:00 PM
Quote
As bad as I feel for everyone's individual family situation, I can not help people simply say that you all have got it all wrong.

I gather that by this you mean: Even though SAFE fucked up many families, because I was able to "help" a few, that makes it allright...is that what you're saying?
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on October 30, 2003, 10:01:00 PM
My brother still, 30 years later, swears Art Barker saved his life. Does that mean everyone else who views their experience with The Seed got it all wrong? We've run into people who say the same damned thing about Straight. Does that mean all of us got it all wrong?

Charles Manson still has an active fan club. Need I say more?

A free people ought...to be armed...
George Washington, 1790

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: kaydeejaded on October 30, 2003, 10:08:00 PM
more evidence supporting my people are idiots theory.

Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest.
Mahatma Gandhi, My Autobigraphy, p. 446

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: sammiegirl on November 02, 2003, 02:58:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-10-30 14:29:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

"As bad as I feel for everyone's individual family situation, I can not help people simply say that you all have got it all wrong.  During the time that I worked there, I was proud of the work I did with kids.  I have not worked there for several years and I still have parents and kids contact me thanking me for how there lives are better.  "

So you are admittind to abusing children in the name of SAFE and Drug Free Kids.
Well the CamerRouge did the same thing as did the Nazis with their YOUTH CAMPS and OH yeah Lets not forget all those priests that RAPED young people in the name of Jesus.
I am so sick of hearing you croonies in the WAR ON DRUGS thinking that it was OK to imprison abuse and defile the minds, bodies and spirits of children.
I tell you what why don't ALL you pro program people come spend a month in my reform program I'll help you see your errors by putting you through what you put the children through. Tell me you wouldn't want to kill me or escape after two days of complete degredation no sleep lack of food and waste in your pants. Oh yeah I will use restraints if you step out of line and you will not be able to tell anyone because I have NOT given you any way to communicate with the outside world.......
And while here in my program you may only read after the appropiate time has passed and then only what I allow!!
Because I am your god and You will worship me just like you expected the kids to worship you and you will fear me because if you do not then I will beat you down.
It's SICK isn't it BUT YOU DID THIS AND MORE!!!
ZIPADEE FUCKING DOODAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: sammiegirl on November 02, 2003, 02:58:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-10-30 14:29:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

"As bad as I feel for everyone's individual family situation, I can not help people simply say that you all have got it all wrong.  During the time that I worked there, I was proud of the work I did with kids.  I have not worked there for several years and I still have parents and kids contact me thanking me for how there lives are better.  "

So you are admitting to abusing children in the name of SAFE and Drug Free Kids.
Well the CamerRouge did the same thing as did the Nazis with their YOUTH CAMPS and OH yeah Lets not forget all those priests that RAPED young people in the name of Jesus.
I am so sick of hearing you croonies in the WAR ON DRUGS thinking that it was OK to imprison abuse and defile the minds, bodies and spirits of children.
I tell you what why don't ALL you pro program people come spend a month in my reform program I'll help you see your errors by putting you through what you put the children through. Tell me you wouldn't want to kill me or escape after two days of complete degredation no sleep lack of food and waste in your pants. Oh yeah I will use restraints if you step out of line and you will not be able to tell anyone because I have NOT given you any way to communicate with the outside world.......
And while here in my program you may only read after the appropiate time has passed and then only what I allow!!
Because I am your god and You will worship me just like you expected the kids to worship you and you will fear me because if you do not then I will beat you down.
It's SICK isn't it BUT YOU DID THIS AND MORE!!!
ZIPADEE FUCKING DOODAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 02, 2003, 05:49:00 PM
I never abused, imprisoned, or mistreated anyone during my time at SAFE, nor did I see anyone abused, imprisoned, or mistreated.  What makes you think that I did?
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 02, 2003, 06:29:00 PM
This video
http://fornits.com/anonanon/video/wami.ram (http://fornits.com/anonanon/video/wami.ram)

That and a lot of info from people who have been involved w/ SAFE in recent years. Where you there when they were keeping Jeff H**sch** wired on Adderall and in isolation in an intake room? Were you there the night that a kid tried to run for the picket line about a year and a half ago and got tackled, stuffed into a car and kidnapped before the police could get there?

How, exactly, do you define the term 'imprisonment' so that it doesn't describe what goes on every day at SAFE?

If you were on staff at SAFE, you saw and condoned a lot of abuse. You just don't perceive any of it as abuse.


Legalizing drugs would simultaneously reduce the amount of crime and raise the quality of law enforcement. Can you conceive of any other measure that would accomplish so much to promote law and order?  
--Economist Milton Friedman



_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
   10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 02, 2003, 06:37:00 PM
BTW, just out of curiosity, I wonder if you'd read something and give me your take on it.

Why Senior Staff Relapse
By Donald L. Smith
Former Staff Trainee
Cincinnati Straight, Inc. 1983-1984

http://thestraights.com/reports/WhySeni ... elapse.doc (http://thestraights.com/reports/WhySeniorStaffRelapse/Why%20Senior%20Staff%20Relapse.doc)

It talks a lot about the chain of command and other details of organizational structure. I just wonder how things have changed in the mean time.

A drug is neither moral nor immoral - it's a chemical compound. The compound itself is not a menace to society until a human being treats it as if consumption bestowed a temporary license to act like an asshole.
--Frank Zappa

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 03, 2003, 10:19:00 AM
I have no idea what went on in any Straight program, nor do I have any idea what went on after I left SAFE.  However, I can speak at length about the 2 1/2 years I did work at SAFE and nothing happened that could or would be remotely construed as abuse, imprisonment, or any prescription med. problems.  It simply did not happen.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Froderik on November 03, 2003, 10:59:00 AM
Ok, so that settles that. I guess we were wrong all along. Thanks for setting the record straight for us on that one... :lol:
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 03, 2003, 11:45:00 AM
Well, if you were there three years ago, that would be about the time that Jeff H**sc*** was there. Do you think maybe there were things going on at the time of which you were not aware? Cause that kid went straight from the front office, over vehement protests and obfuscation by Loretta &Co., to the emergency room. The ER staff diagnosed him as being in critical danger of stroke from the mamoth doses of amphetamines (Adderall) that he'd been given and began the process to ween him off of them.

That video should have been about your time too. Summer of 2000, I do belive. It shows the degrading clothing, identical hairstyles, beltlooping (or nearly so, with the hand on the shoulder thing) a kid trying to flag a 5th phaser for permission to pee and being ignored, the sun deprived 'fluorescent tans' and other hauntingly familiar clues. It also includes the testimony of a young lady who witnessed the incident when Weaver Hastings (who also seems to be quite wired to the gills in the scene where he's interviewd) was put in a room with a chair and instructed to take out his agression for his mother on the chair. Don't you think it's just a bit of a cruel mind fuck to keep a young guy wired out on amphetamines while working on his mind to turn him against his own mother?

All that aside, please answer my one very specific question from last night. How, exactly, do you define the term 'imprisonment' so as not to describe the way SAFE does, has and ever shall (till we can finally get the place closed down) prevent clients, by force, from walking out the door? How can you even pretend to believe that you never witnessed imprisonment at SAFE? Are you going to try and convince any of us that SAFE clients are free to leave if they want to?

"One commentator pointed out that when the mafia commits violence, no
one suggests we bomb Sicily.  Today it seems we are, in a symbolic way, not only bombing "Sicily," but are thinking about bombing "Athens" (Iraq)."

Ron Paul, 11/29/01 Speech before Congress

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Carmel on November 03, 2003, 01:41:00 PM
"It simply did not happen."

Well, its seems very probable that your statement is "simply" not true. Let me explain.

Lets go back, way back to the mother of SAFE.  That being Straight, Inc.  

Straight, Inc. has a proven history of abusive methods, their program was absolutely riddled with techniques that lead to mental and physical abuse. Keep up with me now....

One day, under pressure from legal issues, Straight, Inc. decides to up and re-invent istelf on paper, in the way of becoming SAFE.  Not that this whole drama doesnt speak entirely for itself to begin with, but lets continue.(see http://www.thestraights.com (http://www.thestraights.com) for the hard facts)

It would seem highly  UNLIKELY that previous to your time at SAFE, that abuse, ridicule, depravation, and more or less downright torture took place on a regular basis, unchecked....and then magically faded away during your time there as a counselor....only to return with a vengence upon your departure.   This is the only possibility in which your statement can be true.  Unfortunately for you, this is more than just "your word against mine".  The evidence is there. clear as day for all to see and understand.

Its like 500 people in a crowd seeing the color red, and one or two of them looking on in disbelief, saying.....buts its not red, its yellow.  Now just because these people are either brainwashed or color-blind doesnt change the fact that the color that is manifesting in reality is indeed red.  Thats the beauty of the Program, it made us all not only see, but truly believe on pain of death, that the color was yellow.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: sammiegirl on November 03, 2003, 03:59:00 PM
Please correct me if I am wrong, but
1) In order to be on staff, you have to go through the program.
2) If you did not go through the program then you were paid admin.
3) What if any qualifications do you posess to treat these children.
4) It is easy to turn a blind eye when you are paid.
5) If you were in the program you were brainwashed to believe that what you were doing was not abuse. On staff you are still delusional and still programed.
6) Either or, I suggest you take a deep look into your heart and seek the truth.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 03, 2003, 04:57:00 PM
Actually to work there you do not have to be a graduate of the program or even be a recovering person.  Like many of my professional colleagues, I was a Certified Addictions Professional.  That is a stringent certification process that tests a counselor's knowledge and ability in several areas.  It allows me to testify in court as an expert witness.  So that is how I know what I am talking about.  I was there when Straight closed and SAFE opened.  I was gone long before the WAMI program.

I do agree however, that during my time at SAFE, the owner of the program was completely unqualified to be a front-line counselor or even a clinical director.  

[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2003-11-03 13:58 ]
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: GregFL on November 03, 2003, 05:03:00 PM
many many "certified addiction prosessionals" klept any educational requirements and instead went on 'experience'. Most of them are ex drug junkies and current  program junkies,  

The experience most CAPs have, of course, is being a "counselor" in a tc.  Therefore, to me it is a meaningless set of letters.

Sorry, don't mean you any disrespect...just my opinion. I have talked to more than one CAP that didn't know his ass from his elbow.



...the people have a right to keep and bear arms.
-- Patrick Henry and George Mason Debates



[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2003-11-03 14:06 ]
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: GregFL on November 03, 2003, 05:10:00 PM
you kind of weaseled around that one pal. Are you saying you didn't go thru the program or just intended to insinuate it?

Also, sure the director wasn't qualified to run a program. None of you were, you were all under cultic influences and using a proven failure mode of treatment....Art barkers failed experiment.


No laws, however stringent, can make the idle industrious, the thriftless provident, or the drunken sober
--Samuel Stiles

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 03, 2003, 06:16:00 PM
Imprisonment, common definition.
Main Entry: im·pris·on
Pronunciation: im-'pri-z&n
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French emprisoner, from en- + prison prison
Date: 14th century
: to put in or as if in prison : CONFINE
- im·pris·on·ment  /-m&nt/ noun

False imprisonment
Main Entry: false imprisonment
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
: imprisonment of a person contrary to law

You do know that even parents can only do so much to control their childs behavior or keep them from leaving, right? How come you won't answer my question?

"One commentator pointed out that when the mafia commits violence, no
one suggests we bomb Sicily.  Today it seems we are, in a symbolic way, not only bombing "Sicily," but are thinking about bombing "Athens" (Iraq)."

Ron Paul, 11/29/01 Speech before Congress

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 03, 2003, 06:31:00 PM
Ginger,

I think I missed your question.  What would you like to know?
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 03, 2003, 06:40:00 PM
Your definition of imprisonment and how it differs from the conventional definition.

Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism--how passionately I hate them!
--Albert Einstein

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 03, 2003, 06:42:00 PM
That looks like the definition of imprisionment to me.  I am assuming that you are trying to make a point, which is?
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 03, 2003, 06:54:00 PM
And you never saw any confinement going on in all those years at SAFE?

Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves

--Ronald Reagan

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: GregFL on November 03, 2003, 06:56:00 PM
not to speak for Ginger, but you made this statement:

" I never abused, imprisoned, or mistreated anyone during my time at SAFE, nor did I see anyone abused, imprisoned, or mistreated. What makes you think that I did?"

By the very definition of imprisonment, your statement is shown to be false.

By the history of the Straight & Safe, your statement "nor did I see anyone abused" is patently false. We only now have to explore the definition of that term and then apply it to the known techniques of the organization of your former employe..including but not limited to punishment for using the bathroom, restricted diets, restriction of thought, forcing children to use loaded language, locking children up in small rooms (time out room)...too name just a few.

And Mistreatment.....Hooboy...you are opening a whole different can of worms there.

I reject your statement in its entirety and recognize it for what it is...bullshit.


Again, no disrespect intended...just vastly different views on the same subject and personal experience in the TC modality.



In questions of power, then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution."

--Thomas Jefferson 1798



[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2003-11-03 15:58 ]
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 03, 2003, 07:07:00 PM
Let me add this one thing to let you know where I'm coming from. When I first got out in late `82, I didn't feel asthough I could testify about abuse I'd experienced or witnessed. When I thought of the time I got sat on for two hours and, the next day, got my nose broken after a couple of hours in timeout, I didn't think that qualified as abuse. After all, I'd made the concious decision to refuse to apologize to group for leaving and not being happy to be back. I knew the consequences and thought the nobel and upright thing to do was to stand and take them without complaint.

But, back here in the more commonly accepted reality, most people on the planet would consider that kind of treatment extremely abusive for the infraction of refusing to lie.

When a man you like switches from what he said a year ago, or four years ago, he is a broad-minded person who has courage enough to change his mind with changing conditions. When a man you don't like does it, he is a liar who has broken his promise.
-- FRANKLIN P.ADAMS (1861-1960).

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: kaydeejaded on November 04, 2003, 09:39:00 AM
I think that something is bothering "exsafecounselor" or he never would of found us in the 1st place.

The Constitution of the United States is a law for rulers and people equally in war and peace. And covers with the shield of it's protection all classes of men at all times and under all circumstances.
--US Supreme Court, Ex Parte Milligan

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 04, 2003, 10:11:00 AM
Imprisonment: Being in a treatment center against your will is not imprisonment.  I have done plenty of things in my life that I had to do or needed to do that were the complete opposite of what I wanted to do.  That again is not imprisonment.  Every single client, from the kid sitting on the front row, first chair to the fifth phaser would rather not be there.  

Mistreatment:  If a child is hurting themselves, others, or destroying property, and after verbal intervention does not work, physical intervention is not only warranted, it is necessary for the protection of the person and the group as a whole.

Let me ask you this, did you ever think that following the rules might acutally be beneficial?
I know you were asked to do such terrible things like talk about yourself, and be honest, and learn a different way of living.  

I did work with group staff members that were in Straight and they did state that "back on my program" that misbehaviors were dealt with by other group members.  I recognize that this did happen at the Straight locations that they were treated.  However, at SAFE this never happened.  

I can not say this enough.  I can and will only speak to what I know, which is the 2 1/2 years I worked at SAFE.  What I know of Straight only comes from what I heard about from group staff members that were there.

"Tis hard for an empty bag to stand upright."
-Ben Franklin


[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2003-11-04 07:14 ]

[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2003-11-04 07:28 ]

[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2003-11-04 07:38 ]
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Froderik on November 04, 2003, 10:59:00 AM
Ooh I'm gonna blast you before anyone else can. I'm comin home this week mofo!
 
Quote
Imprisonment: Being in a treatment center against your will is not imprisonment. I have done plenty of things in my life that I had to do or needed to do that were the complete opposite of what I wanted to do. That again is not imprisonment. Every single client, from the kid sitting on the front row, first chair to the fifth phaser would rather not be there.
So they were being held against their will. you could say that you "have" to go to work, but like they taught us in RSC, you don't "have" to do anything but be born, breathe, and die. So you don't "have" to go to work. But clients HAD to stay in that joint whether they liked it or not...face it, you're in denial! Now let me click "Say It" before someone else beats me to it!!!

Quote
Mistreatment: If a child is hurting themselves, others, or destroying property, and after verbal intervention does not work, physical intervention is not only warranted, it is necessary for the protection of the person and the group as a whole.

Ok, now let me go off on this...protection means it's ok to abuse the person? No one was licensed in any kind of skill to restrain someone. There were BROKEN BONES resulting from that crap. Maybe YOU didn't see it happen. I don't know firsthand what happened at SAFE. Did they sit on people? Did they restrain people?

[ This Message was edited by: Froderik13 on 2003-11-04 08:05 ]
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 04, 2003, 11:04:00 AM
You are making this too easy for me.  Thank you for setting me up.  Lets go back to RSC, since you brought it up.  You got yourself there by the choices you made prior to treatment-DRUGS.  you chose to stay there longer than necessary by not following the rules.  Even while you were there, you willingly kept yourself from the simple joys in life of watching TV, talking on the phone, being able to take a day off, just because you did not want to did some very simple basic things.  Does that sound like a good decision to you?
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Froderik on November 04, 2003, 11:15:00 AM
That's some twisted logic there. Think about it. Think outside the box a little. It's ok to deny someone their civil liberties in the name of "treatment?" At this point, I'd like to hear from some other ex-staff on this subject. Don? Clay? Anyone?
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 04, 2003, 11:16:00 AM
One other thing-Is your family supposed to allow you to do whatever you want just because you say so, even though because of your own actions you are harming yourself and making their life a living hell?  You need to grow up!

Start basing your life on "objective reality".

At SAFE, all the staff were trained in approved physical intervention techniques, by outside, third-party trainers.  But that is not what you want to know.  Did people get hurt?  On ocassion, staff and clients were hurt, including myself.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 04, 2003, 11:20:00 AM
I am not a lawyer, nor did I pretend to be.  However, if a minor needs treatment and they are not given treatment, that is parental neglect in the eyes of the law, not a breach of the child's civil liberties.  Do you even believe what you are saying?  Children under 18 are not equals to their parents.  I would think you would know this by now.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Froderik on November 04, 2003, 11:24:00 AM
Quote
One other thing-Is your family supposed to allow you to do whatever you want just because you say so, even though because of your own actions you are harming yourself and making their life a living hell? You need to grow up!


Never assume. It'll make an ASS out of YOU and ME. One of Scott Prophet's (straight staff) fav quotes, and I'll use it here. You don't know what led up to me going into the program I went into. I might not have touched drugs, for all you know. Some kids were sent away for the sole reason that they didn't live up to the "family image." Even if I was the lowest junkie in desparate need of help, the TC model of treatment just wasn't/isn't the answer for most of us. You want me to back that statement up? Just do some research on your own. The truth is out there...
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Froderik on November 04, 2003, 11:27:00 AM
Teens and children have civil liberties. And BTW this statement is illogical:

Quote
am not a lawyer, nor did I pretend to be. However, if a minor needs treatment and they are not given treatment, that is parental neglect in the eyes of the law, not a breach of the child's civil liberties


(It is self-contradicting, or a non-sequitor or something like that. Re-read it and think about it.)
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 04, 2003, 11:28:00 AM
Again, at SAFE, we only dealt with kids with drugs problems.  I was not aware that there was treatment for those kids who have parents with unrealistic expectations.  Do you sense my sarcasm?  I hope so.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 04, 2003, 11:30:00 AM
You need to call your local senator and ask him to change to laws so that a minor child can do whatever he wants.  Good luck!
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Froderik on November 04, 2003, 11:32:00 AM
I can only hope that what you say is true. But I certainly question it. SAFE was straight inc. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. If you want to believe that everyone "needed to be there" go ahead. But that whole mode of treatment is a farce anyway. So either way, your statement doesn't hold water for me...
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Froderik on November 04, 2003, 11:33:00 AM
Children ALREADY have RIGHTS that were VIOLATED and STILL ARE by these programs. If you are sincere, help us to end the abuse.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 04, 2003, 11:36:00 AM
I have no problem with children being treated against their will.  There is nothing that says they have to agree to it.  Their disagreeing with it is normal and expected.

If physicl abuse happens, I will help you.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Froderik on November 04, 2003, 11:40:00 AM
The whole mode of treatment can be considered abuse. There are alternatives.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 04, 2003, 11:41:00 AM
Were you in SAFE at anytime
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 04, 2003, 11:43:00 AM
Do you think that motivating was abusive?
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: ClayL on November 04, 2003, 12:49:00 PM
This is so full of shit. Base what on objective reality? Yes "motivating" was not only abusive, but degrading as hell. Let's all flop about like some epileptic during a gran mal seizure. The way the rules were, most parents had no idea what exactly went on in group.

All your arguments are circular and self fulfilling prophecies. They are also fallacious. Just because some one, lets says a teenager, experiments with pot does not give them a drug or behavioral disorder. During my time on staff I saw numerous children subjected to drug treatment for things I would call normal now. I also think straight, SAFE and the like have a fiduciary predisposition to find drug problems in children. I would tend to believe the problems fall more into the parenting arena than onto the kids. Most kids wound up in there because their parents were sold what proves to be a lie more often than not, "Your kid will be in jail, an institution, not as good as this one, or dead if you don't get them help now." I ask you to prove me wrong. What are the cases? Do they out-weigh the kids that turned out okay. I know dang near all my friends that didn't wind up in straight now have post graduate degrees and I am the one playing catch-up. Anecdotally, this goes for most if not all of my straight brethren. Kind of makes me just want to jump up and say, "THANKS FOR THE FUCKING HELP!"

Further, you stated that clients chose to make their programs longer and to miss out on the things you call privileges. Lets look at my case then. From the first day I complied with the program. Not once did I misbehave. I spent 30 months in there. Why, because I didn't get along with some of the Sr.s. Funny thing is, I was over 18 and I did choose to be there. Hmmm, some of the people some of the time....

I do think that parents have the right to raise their children as they see fit. I also believe they have the right to place their children into treatment facilities if the child's problems can be handled best in this manner. I do not believe that contact with ones family is a privilege or should ever be considered such. I think one should be encouraged to talk about everything that happens to them during the day, in group, with whomever is willing to listen. Especially family! None of that crap would have ever been allowed if the parents knew about it. Treatment should not be secretive, it should be open.

As far as physical abuse at SAFE I cannot say. I wasn't there. Straight was abusive as hell and drove kids to be hurtful of themselves and others. This wasn't some manifestation of their drug problem. That's BS and you should know that.

Here's the upshot of the whole thing. I spent years believing that I was a dope fiend because of the corrupt diagnosis of the staff at straight, inc. Straight had a financial reason to find this diagnosis. Only later in life did I find that I was ADHD. Once this was treated, low and behold, ALL the issue that I had been struggling with throughout my life just up and vanished. I suspect that there are thousands of people that went through straight and its descendants that have similar if not the same experience. It is this that causes such distrust and name calling of the off shoots. Straight lied to us, often. Sold us a bunch of hooey that most of us tried to live. Only after struggling for 15-20 years, trying to apply the straight propaganda to our lives, did we begin to suspect that the real issue was straight. I'm just not sure that SAFE has been around long enough for your head to come out of your ass. Yet.

Clay
Jr 2 - Straight ATL

Correcting the spelling errors....

[ This Message was edited by: ClayL on 2003-11-04 09:51 ]
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 04, 2003, 12:50:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-11-04 08:04:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

"You got yourself there by the choices you made prior to treatment-DRUGS.  you chose to stay there longer than necessary by not following the rules.  Even while you were there, you willingly kept yourself from the simple joys in life of watching TV, talking on the phone, being able to take a day off, just because you did not want to did some very simple basic things.  Does that sound like a good decision to you?
"


Wait a second here. I thought you were going to talk about what you know? I did follow the rules, down to the last. The things that bothered me enough to make me want, no need to get out where things like when they kept a boy in timeout w/o sleep, bathroom 'priviledges' or a break from constant harrassment to the point where the kid was catatonic.

I didn't even yell or hit back when someone smashed my nose. I had a good reason for holding onto my temper like life itself. I had to be absolutely sure in my own mind that what you've said above was not true. I knew it, logically. But logic is no match for relentless indoctrination. I had to have proof and I got it.

One thing I don't understand about what you've said so far. You say you were there for 3 years up to about 2000. But then you say you were there when Straight changed it's name to SAFE. But that happened in 1992. That would be 8 years, not 3.

That's also a long time for a kid to spend in close association with a cult. So I can understand why you're so deeply washed and I'm not mad at you. I just hope you find what you're looking for.

"There lives more faith, in honest doubt, Believe me, than in half the creeds."
Alfred Lord Tennyson

Allow the President to invade a neighboring nation whenever he shall deem it necessary to repel an invasion, and you allow him to do so whenever he may choose to say he deems it necessary for such purpose, and you allow him to make war at pleasure. Study to see if you can fix any limit to his power in this respect, after having given him so much as you propose. If today he should choose to say he thinks it necessary to invade Canada to prevent the British from invading us, how could you stop him? You may say to him,--"I see no probability of the British invading us"; but he will say to you, "Be silent: I see it, if you don't."
--Abraham Lincoln



_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
   10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 04, 2003, 01:05:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-11-04 08:16:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

"One other thing-Is your family supposed to allow you to do whatever you want just because you say so, even though because of your own actions you are harming yourself and making their life a living hell?  You need to grow up!



Start basing your life on "objective reality".
"

I think you're missing something important here, son. Most of the people you're talking to have kids of our own. My oldest is 19. Some of us even have grandkids already. We've figured a few things out over the years.

And, for my part, I would agree that, as much as it pains us as parents to see our kids make big and painful mistakes, there's only so much you can do to disuede them once they've decided to quit taking direction.

The objective reality here is that we've all grown up and left the cult, even though for some of us it meant leaving our natural families behind. We've jumped the fence and found no cliff.

The criteria by which the Program declares that a kid is harming themselves is entirely subjective. For the most part, it's based on the parents' level of emotional upset. Some parents lose their grip over the tiniest things.

Quote

At SAFE, all the staff were trained in approved physical intervention techniques, by outside, third-party trainers.  But that is not what you want to know.  Did people get hurt?  On ocassion, staff and clients were hurt, including myself.  


Yes, and you got lots of practice, too, as I understand it. Here's an excerpt from Wes Fager's online book "A Clockwork Straight"
http://www.thestraights.com/book/index.htm (http://www.thestraights.com/book/index.htm) .

"A  Florida HRS site visit report of SAFE  (a  Sembler-based synanon in Orlando, Florida)  conducted between July 6 - 8 and July 13 - 15, 1993 found that during the 30 day period leading up to the state investigation there had been approximately 29 "reported" incidents of restraint while only 1 reported incidence of restraint at all other juvenile drug rehabs in the district combined!"

I guess you would have been there right about then. In your opinion, why is it that kids who find themselves in drug treatment at SAFE seem to require restraint so much more often than kids who find themselves in treatment elsewhere?

If All it takes is an infinite number of monkeys with type writers, then how come there's no Shakespeare coming out of AOL?
-- Anonymous

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: sammiegirl on November 04, 2003, 02:42:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-11-04 08:16:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

"One other thing-Is your family supposed to allow you to do whatever you want just because you say so, even though because of your own actions you are harming yourself and making their life a living hell?  You need to grow up!


Tisk tisk your anger is showing. You sound like all the other staff I have heard...In STRAIGHT! 1980's...
Should you take a child who is such a way and lock them in a CULT.

Start basing your life on "objective reality".


You see, we are objective and this is reality. That is why we are here, trying to warn other people of the possible long term harm to their children.

At SAFE, all the staff were trained in approved physical intervention techniques, by outside, third-party trainers.  But that is not what you want to know.  Did people get hurt?  On ocassion, staff and clients were hurt, including myself.  
"

Medical Ethics Board 1973 NJ GREYSTONE PSYCHIATRIC HOSPITAL. FOR ADULTS
Brought into the Pt Bill of Rights 1979
No person shall be restrained without WRITTEN DR ORDER... The patient must ONLY BE RESTRAINED FOR NO MORE THAN 15 MINUETS AT A TIME UNLESS OTHERWISE PERSCRIBED BY THE PHYSCIAN, WHENCE FINDING THE PATIENT TO BE OF HARM TO HIM/HERSELF OR OTHERS. THEN THE CHECK MUST BE AGAIN EVERY 15 MINUETS.
I know you by pass this with your 15 min check but it violates the law by not recieving a Dr's permission WRITTEN for every restraint. And you must let the person go without it.
ALSO!!
PROPER AND APPROVED RESTRAINT DEVICES MUST BE USED AS NOT TO CAUSE UNNECESSARY DISCOMFORT TO THE PATIENT.
Ahem, People sitting on and or holding a person to a wall, chair ect....
NOT APPROVED ANYWHERE!!
Check it out.
And to the did people get hurt.
Where are the incident reports that MUST be filed with HRS??
This is also the LAW>
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: sammiegirl on November 04, 2003, 02:47:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-11-03 07:19:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

"I have no idea what went on in any Straight program, nor do I have any idea what went on after I left SAFE.    However, I can speak at length about the 2 1/2 years I did work at SAFE and nothing happened that could or would be remotely construed as abuse, imprisonment, or any prescription med. problems.  It simply did not happen.  "
You said you knew Straight staff from another post. What is the first and most important rule?

REEEEALLY?
You said you restrained children. But this wasn't abusive? I'm sorry, did SAFE buy all these approved restraint devises? Think not.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: sammiegirl on November 04, 2003, 02:53:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-11-04 08:28:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

"Again, at SAFE, we only dealt with kids with drugs problems.  I was not aware that there was treatment for those kids who have parents with unrealistic expectations.  Do you sense my sarcasm?  I hope so.
"
SO all these kids were properly tested for DRUG ADDICTION? Ahem problems? And yes there is so called TM for children of unrealistic parents. Its called SAFE.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 04, 2003, 03:14:00 PM
There seems to be some confusion over the word restraint.  It seems that many of you experienced restraint devices where you were tied down, etc.  During my time at SAFE, we did not use anything like that.  I believe the name of the certification/training we received was ACT.  I am not 100% sure, so please dont run my up a flag pole if I am wrong.  It was simply a way of physically subdoing (sp?) a client.  Also, per policy and procedure, an incident report was completed by the exec. staff in charge for every restraint, whether an injury occured or not.

Also, there is not test for "drug addiction" or "problem", like a blood test.  There is a 14-30 day evaluation period.  If a child met the criteria for admission, during that time, they were discharged.  While I was at SAFE, it did happen where a child was discharged for not meeting the admission criteria.  Please consult the DSM-IV, so you will have a better understanding of what criteria a child needed to meet.  Without a diagnosis from this manual, no one can be admitted to SAFE.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 04, 2003, 03:19:00 PM
Antigen,

I am sure my father got around in his younger years, but I doubt that I am your son.  If I am you are pretty old, since I was a father when I first started working at SAFE.  I appreciate the attempt at beind condascending however.  You will just have to try harder.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: kaydeejaded on November 04, 2003, 03:37:00 PM
Yo!!!!


Motivating was ruled unsafe and we were stopped from doing it at Straight Boston beause of that reason.

It causes injury. Neck arm and back injuries. And no one was tied dowm we were held down to be specific by the loving arm legs and bodies of othe "kids helping kids" the counselors and I use the term quite loosely didn't dirty their hands in that way.

And it gives me pause to wonder what the fuck pardon my french but being from safe I am sure you heard that before,  probably in the context of like fuck you or something, but anyway what are you doing here if you feel so damn good about yourself.

You say you are a father. #1 you don't have to be that old to be a father, not that I am advocating teenage fatherhood but don't use that as a testiment to your age comparisson to Gingers. Also, would you want to do to your child what you saw done in Safe? Answer honestly.

What are you doing here answer that one honestly also.

 :skull: how well do you sleep at night?


Web pages are like babies -- creation involves a level of enthusiasm that does not necessarily carry over into maintenance.
--Joe Chew

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: kaydeejaded on November 04, 2003, 03:39:00 PM
ignore all the typos. I am a fast reckless typer.

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense

--Buddha

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: ehm on November 04, 2003, 03:39:00 PM
You?re defending a program here that has DESTROYED thousands of innocent children's/adult's lives and driven others to heavy drug use and/or suicide. Not to mention the thousands of dollars needed to be spent on therapy, RECOVERING from the illegal and cruel forms of treatment/imprisonment used in places such as Safe.

If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race?
--Frederic Bastiat -- 1801-1850



http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... m=8&Sort=D (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=574&forum=8&Sort=D)
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 04, 2003, 03:46:00 PM
While I was at SAFE, kids did not restrain kids.  I was involved in the restraints and they were performed in line with how we were trained.  Again, I heard from group staff that had been in Straight, that kids used to restrain kids.  This did not happen at SAFE.  

Would I want my kids to go through what I saw if they needed to-you would not believe my answer if I told you the truth.  

I sleep very well at night.  I think that how SAFE implemented the treatment model, differed greatly from what others had experienced at Straight, Seed, etc.  

During the time that HRS put us on "probation" and we were being investigated, whether or not the kids could or should "motivate" never came up.  Loretta P.  got into a power struggle with HRS and they looked at every single thing we did.  Motivating was never an issue.  Regardless of your opinions of HRS, they were a 3rd party entity that could have tried to stop it if they thought it was a problem.  They never said a word.

Why am I here?  I find this whole discussion fascinting.  I also feel very proud of what happened while I was at SAFE and am trying to understand where others are coming from.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: kaydeejaded on November 04, 2003, 03:50:00 PM
you obviously lack compassion if you can label an entire conversation about treatment that destroyed the lives of children interesting. I would not leave you with my hampster let alone my child.

You did not answer my question Would you do that to YOUR child?

It has ever been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues

--Abraham Lincoln

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 04, 2003, 03:54:00 PM
I do not find the abuse of treatment or anything along those lines fascinating.  I am sorry that i gave you that impression.  What I find fascinating is the wide variety of opinions.

As long as Loretta P. had nothing to do with the program, and they removed all parents who have kids in the program from any staff positions, and the treatment model was being applied as it was when I worked there, I would move to Orlando to become a local host home parent.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: ehm on November 04, 2003, 04:22:00 PM
"... Boy, was I crushed, but it was then that I knew I was on my own and I had to do everything and anything to make them all believe that I was part of them... I even made myself belive it..... I sure would like to run into that oldcomer today, I am 43 now and that's a scar that I will probably take to my grave......" -- Bigfrank

And he did, as did many others.

Exsafecounselor,
You may find these conversations fasinating, but perhaps you need to open your eyes and do some research into what you're talking about before you start blowing sunshine up your own ass for the children you've so-called helped. The traumas we all suffered can last a lifetime, and at best, we will recover. At worst, we die trying.

 :???: This is treatment?

It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.
Thomas Jefferson

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: GregFL on November 04, 2003, 04:29:00 PM
A TOAST AND LOVE TO BIG FRANK!!!!!!!


Come the millennium,

month 12,

in the home of greatest power,

the village idiot will come forth to
be acclaimed the leader.
--Nostradamus

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 04, 2003, 04:31:00 PM
Who is bigfrank?
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: GregFL on November 04, 2003, 04:40:00 PM
Bigfrank was a contributor to the Seed discussion forum. Bigfrank had undergone abuse in the Safe predecessor, The Seed, as a young man that affected him into adulthood.

Bigfrank had a drug problem that largely developed after leaving The Seed (very common) and was found dead of an overdose last year.

It has ever been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues

--Abraham Lincoln

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: ehm on November 04, 2003, 04:44:00 PM
Here's a link to one of his threads, exsafecounselor.

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... m=8&Sort=D (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=574&forum=8&Sort=D)


[ This Message was edited by: morli on 2003-11-04 13:47 ]
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: ehm on November 04, 2003, 04:48:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-11-04 13:29:00, GregFL wrote:

"A TOAST AND LOVE TO BIG FRANK!!!!!!!





Come the millennium,

month 12,

in the home of greatest power,

the village idiot will come forth to
be acclaimed the leader.
--Nostradamus

"


  ::cheers::  ::heart::  ::kiss::  Here, here!!!

The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism.


--William Osler

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 04, 2003, 04:54:00 PM
Poor Bigfrank
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on November 04, 2003, 05:35:00 PM
Well I have read the ex's posts. It sounds pretty much to me that it is not real. We have to remember what they are capable of. Son't stoop to their level.

Hey EX....I am sure we know each other if the dates you metnionted of being on staff are correct and you claim to be. Remember Jeff Henschel, oh you then must remember Weaver and his couragous mother. Well we barley got Jeff out alive. He was on so much Adderall. Did you know when we filed the lawsyuit aginst SAFewe talked with Walgreens across the street. Thye said that SAFE used so many amphetamines, they had to special order alll the time for SAFE children.

Then you must remember also the first protest against SAFE. Do you remeber the girl that became pregnant while in the host home? I hope this jars your memeory a bit. I will go on more and more later but to much to tell in one post.

Do you remeber the awful family weekend when all staff could not control the kids (they were uprising)so they called the parents in who had beeen TRAINED in such things. This included the parents of the child who was taken down. Do you know what it did to those parents yet alone that child? Or I am sure you did not see that.

You said to someone to be honest. How many of them that were pulled called to thank you for a job well done. SO many of those kids were running on pure fear an desperation. Remeber the JOHN A family, first their son was in and this lovely little 14 yr old daughter was in the sibling group. She was the sweetest little girl. And wham next week at opn meeting there she was on girl side.

SO much more EX but it just all makes me so sick and that you condon this behavior. I for one do no think your real your a present staffer, or parent or mole.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 04, 2003, 05:42:00 PM
I was gone far before the whole Jeff and Weaver thing.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 04, 2003, 08:28:00 PM
Greg, man! You made me cry. Here's to Big Frank.  :cry:

A student burst into his office.  "Professor Stigler, I don't believe I deserve this F you've given me."  To which Stigler replied, "I agree, but unfortunately it is the lowest grade the University will allow me to award."
--Professor Stigler

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 04, 2003, 08:30:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-11-04 14:42:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

"I was gone far before the whole Jeff and Weaver thing.  
"


Then you've been out for a lot longer than three years. Which is it?

When we are pleading with foreign governments to stop the flow of cocaine, it is the height of hypocrisy for the US to export tobacco.  Years from now, our nation will look back on this application of free trade policy and find it scandalous.

1989 testimony before the US Trade Representative,September 1989
--Surgeon General, Everett Koop

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: sammiegirl on November 04, 2003, 09:26:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-11-04 12:46:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

"While I was at SAFE, kids did not restrain kids.  I was involved in the restraints and they were performed in line with how we were trained.  Again, I heard from group staff that had been in Straight, that kids used to restrain kids.  This did not happen at SAFE.  BULLSHIT!



Would I want my kids to go through what I saw if they needed to-you would not believe my answer if I told you the truth.  



I sleep very well at night.  I think that how SAFE implemented the treatment model, differed greatly from what others had experienced at Straight, Seed, etc.  THEN WHAT ARE YOU DOING ON THIS BOARD??



During the time that HRS put us on "probation" and we were being investigated, whether or not the kids could or should "motivate" never came up.  Loretta P.  got into a power struggle with HRS and they looked at every single thing we did.  Motivating was never an issue.  Regardless of your opinions of HRS, they were a 3rd party entity that could have tried to stop it if they thought it was a problem.  They never said a word. NICE TRY BUT STRAIGHT CLOSED DUE TO ABUSE ALLEGATIONS AND BECAME SAFE. NEW NAME, NEW INVESTIGATORS, SAME OLD BS AS STRAIGHT WITH THE SAME OWNERS



Why am I here?  I find this whole discussion fascinting.  I also feel very proud of what happened while I was at SAFE and am trying to understand where others are coming from.  

AGAIN BULLSHIT!
I BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE BRIAN SEEBER AND YOU ARE TRYING TO PLAY SOME SORT OF GAME, IF YOUR NOT B.S.THEN YOU ARE ONE OF HIS CROONIES. YOU ARE PROUD OF WHAT HAPPENED! THEN I SUGGEST YOU FACE THOSE PEOPLE AND SEE WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY. EXSAFE COUNSELOR "STAND UP"
WHO HAS SOMETHING TO SAY TO THIS GUY??? (Hands wave franticaly).



"
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: kaydeejaded on November 04, 2003, 09:43:00 PM
discrepancies,

do NOT have a discrepancy in your story around one of us........ we cut our teeth on that bullshit in group. Don't you remember when you got out? when did you really get out?  

What's a matter aren't you honest???

The right of self-defense is the first law of nature; in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest possible limits. ... and [when] the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction.
-- St. George Tucker, Judge of the Virginia Supreme Court 1803

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Aqua Fortis on November 05, 2003, 12:12:00 AM
:eek: Hey Ex dude, why do the staffers that work at safe inc lock EACH of the 4 front doors EVERY time they go in and out of them. I counted 27 open and closings in one hour a couple months ago. Oh, and why are 3 of those 4 doors taped up with paper? Oh, and why are there ladies that carry trays of medicine bottles back and forth thru these doors, and why was there a guy carryin a thin foam pad with a ripped up sheet remnant on it through a papered up door? HUH? Those kids are imprisoned!

 I bet the locals think there's somethin fishy goin on over there. I don't think I ever seen any such behavior before or since at a place of business.  :???:  

Aqua Fortis
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Don Smith on November 05, 2003, 04:56:00 AM
At this point, I'd like to hear from some other ex-staff on this subject. Don? Clay? Anyone?


EXSAFECOUSELOR

Where do I start?  It seems to me that someone several months ago posted a message saying they had gone to an Open Meeting and things were much different.  Now I don?t recall which program spin off it was they were referring to but that?s not the point.

I understand were EX is coming from.  In his mind things were better than what he?s been reading about on this and other sites.  But before you go thinking I?m backing him, hold on, I?m not through.

Okay, MAYBE kids are no longer restraining other kids.  It?s possible I suppose but there are a lot of things that I?m almost positive that they still have to endure that I disagree with.  Hey EX if I?m wrong let me know.

Newcomers in these spin off programs are still not allowed to read, listen to the radio, watch TV, make or receive phone calls and write or receive letters. Newcomers are still never ever left alone.  They are locked in their rooms at night.  To a point I understand some of these restrictions. But others I don?t.

If it were up to me,
·   A Newcomer would have the ability to call their parents after all other responsibilities are done.  
·   The Parents should be able to call their children during the day at set times.
·   The Newcomer should be able to write a letter or a card to their family.
·   The Newcomer should be able to receive letters and cards from their family. I can?t tell you what a difference this would have made in my program.  When I was 943 miles away from home a card from my parents would?ve helped tremendously.  
·   The Parents should be able to see their children during regular business hours. In emergency situations such as a death in the family they should be able to leave the facility even if it is with an Oldcomer.  (I know in Straight a lot of people had grandparents die and were not allowed to go to the funeral.  That?s just wrong)
·   An Adult client should be able to leave the facility at anytime and for any reason.  
·   The parents of a minor child should be able to pull their child without fear of being confronted by Senior or Executive Staff.  
·   All clients of a program should have access to contact with local agencies that can act upon reports of abuse in these facilities and should be able to do so without fear of retaliation.  
·   Professional and licensed staff should have to at least monitor ALL raps sessions led by Junior and Senior Staff.  This keeps them from becoming abusive toward the clients.  

I'm sure others here can come up with some other restrictions that can be lifted or at least modified but these are some of the basic one's I can think of off hand.

Don
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 05, 2003, 10:36:00 AM
I would like to commend Don on being able to disagree and not be abusive.  Don asked some very specific questions and here are the answers as they relate to the time I worked there.

You are 100% correct about newcomers, except for one thing.  They are not locked in their room at night.  Not only is this against the law, it is a safety hazzard.  However, as I am sure you recall, an oldcomer sleeps in front of the door.  I also understand why people have a problem with how newcomers are treated. It is very drastic.  However, it is done so that they will focus on themselves and have no other distractions.  It is not meant to seperate them from them family, but rather have them imporve themselves so they can be a better family member.  A family is like a chain.  If one link breaks, the entire chain falls apart.  In addition, parents need time away from their child so they can reflect on how their parenting style enabled their child to continue their behavior.  

I am not saying that this is the only way to help kids.  I am saying that it is one way to do it and it is not damaging or harmful when it is applied correctly.

Clients over 18 can leave at their leisure.  They are adults and have different rights than minors do.  If a parent wants to pull a minor child, what kind of health care professionals would we be if we did not hold the parent accountable for doing something which is not in their best interest.  Again at Safe, every client past 30 days, has been diagnosed with some kind of drug problem.  Removing a child prematurely is not in their best interest.  If you went to your doctor with a fever and he prescribed you an anitbiotic and you told him that you were not going to take it, what would you want your doctor to do?  We felt an obligation to acting in the best interest of the parents and child to try and get them to do the correct thing-which was stay.

During my time at SAFE, there was always an exec. staff member behind group.  There was never an exception.  

If a client wanted to report abuse, they simply took it up the chain of command and within about 30 mintues they call 180096abuse (If I remember correctly).

Feel free to ask other questions or challenge the program about things.  I think that at a minimum we will better understand each other and have a little more peace of mind about some issues.   :smile:
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 05, 2003, 10:38:00 AM
It seems there is some confusion about when i worked there.  I worked at SAFE from 8/92-6/95.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Carmel on November 05, 2003, 11:36:00 AM
It just seems logical to me that a treatment modality that has been known for, and CONFIRMED as, abusive since its inception......would not be subject to "grace periods" of proper functionality.

I mean, hey, it didnt matter if we had done one single drug before we got put into the Program, after 30 days....WE all had been diagnosed as well, the alternative was terrifying.  I was a hard core crack and PCP user 30 days into Straight, you betcha! Makes me wish I had actually tried those drugs....maybe it would have made admitting it worth it.

And one point I would like to touch on that has been avoided here Ex, is that what exactly prompted a restraint?  A kid running for the door?  A kid punching out the phaser in the next chair?  Or was it also, things like putting your hands on your knees, or sitting up straight, or refusing to look forward?  I saw kids bleed because they wouldnt do these things.  How exactly were they putting themselves in danger by not doing something like this?

I was in the Dallas program, just around the same time you worked at SAFE ( or when it changed)....this was a heavy time for them as both Yorba Linda and Dallas were shut down, for ABUSE in 90-92.  I have a little knowledge in getting to witness the kids from a program that got tanked for abuse come into our group (which was itself on its way to getting tanked for abuse) and it wasnt pretty.

Many clients from our group were sent to Atlanta and Orlando after we were shut down, and I know for a fact that those centers were practicing the same methods and using the same bullshit restraint techniques....I have spoken to clients I knew that were there when you were.  And they graduated.

So, what you are presenting Ex, is SIMPLY not true.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 05, 2003, 12:03:00 PM
Carmel, it seems that you and I are at an impasse.  During my time there, no one was restrained using mechanical equipment of any kind.  It was simply one or two staff members using approved intervention techniques of taking a client to the floor using our own force and the techniques provided.  

If you are simply taking my statements as incorrect because I was an exec. staff member, which many people have done here, then there is nothing I can say to change anyone's mind or get them to look at things differently.

I am sorry for your experiences at Straight.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 05, 2003, 12:35:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-11-05 07:36:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

I am not saying that this is the only way to help kids. I am saying that it is one way to do it and it is not damaging or harmful when it is applied correctly.

Sorry, you're just wrong. All good intentions aside, it's harmful to isolate a child from everyone and everything they've ever known. Add to that the strict regimentation, constant prying and pushing for confessions and personal info and it becomes extremely harmful.

Quote
Clients over 18 can leave at their leisure.

What's the first and most impotent rule???

Quote
If a parent wants to pull a minor child, what kind of health care professionals would we be if we did not hold the parent accountable for doing something which is not in their best interest.

Health professionals!?  :rofl:  :rofl:

Quote
Again at Safe, every client past 30 days, has been diagnosed with some kind of drug problem.

Coerced confession is not an accepted diagnostic method, buddy.

Quote
Removing a child prematurely is not in their best interest. If you went to your doctor with a fever and he prescribed you an anitbiotic and you told him that you were not going to take it, what would you want your doctor to do?

Oh, well, now that you put it that way. Of course I'd want my doctor to have his staff tackle me to the floor, force the antibiotic down my throat and hold me incommunicado for a couple of years till I lost the will to report the assault. Wouldn't anyone?

Quote
We felt an obligation to acting in the best interest of the parents and child to try and get them to do the correct thing-which was stay.

In the more commonly accepted reality, this is what is called coercion, blackmail and false imprisonment.

Quote
During my time at SAFE, there was always an exec. staff member behind group. There was never an exception.

If a client wanted to report abuse, they simply took it up the chain of command and within about 30 mintues they call 180096abuse (If I remember correctly).


Bullshit. Who do you think you're talking to, buddy? You must not be trying to impress those of us who know the program so I'm guessing you're addressing the lurkers. This is a lie, plain and simple. No one who would think of reporting abuse is allowed any kind of access to the kids.

Don't laugh when you leave this courtroom, thinking you have beat the system because you have looked these things up yourself. We are going to get you down the road.
Washington Superior CourtJudge Rebecca Baker

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 05, 2003, 12:46:00 PM
Ginger/Antigen, I think you had a completely different experience while you were in treatment, than when I worked there.  You keep asking me this question so I will tell you-Honesty is the first and most important rule.  

Have you ever thought that maybe we are both right.  That bad things happened to you and you completely disagree with the treatment modality and how it was applied.  I have no problem accepting that.  With that in mind, you need to be open to the idea that what I am saying is truthful.

Let me ask you a question regarding the doctor and antibiotic analogy.  Why did you automatically turn to an abusive option?  I guess this is what you experienced and saw.  At SAFE, during my time there, we would talk to parents about pulling their kids, not tackle them.  The same applied to overage clients.  We would talk to them.  There is no other option.  Call HRS in Orlando and ask them if any SAFE clients have ever called the abuse hotline.  I know they have because they would often times do it from my office or in my presence.  Also, ask HRS how many staff members have ever been arrested or charged with child abuse.  I think you will find that despite the probably well in the hundreds of abuse calls, not one staff member has ever been charged or arrested.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: kaydeejaded on November 05, 2003, 12:50:00 PM
I am sure your experience as a counselor was different then anyones experience in "treatment"

also I am sure no one from safe called anyone my guess is they has no access to a phone until higher phases and by then were too terrified to put there status in danger and not be believed and be back on level one again or whater "safe" called it.

To the best of my knowledge you Still have not answered my one and only burning question would you put your child in Safe?

hmmm?????

If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit  people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good?  Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race?

--Frederic Bastiat -- 1801-1850

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 05, 2003, 12:52:00 PM
I replied to that a couple of messages ago.  Please read above.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: kaydeejaded on November 05, 2003, 12:56:00 PM
Would not believe the answer is that a yes? That is not an answer. It is a "cop-out" to use program speak............. :roll:

What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 05, 2003, 12:58:00 PM
I would move to Orlando and be a local host home parent-provided what I wrote earlier was happening.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 05, 2003, 12:58:00 PM
A friend of mine pulled CPS reports on SAFE just a few years ago. Not one report came up. If kids were calling from your office, somebody was deleting the records soon after. You should request those reports. You might be surprised (unless you really are Brian and not a former client staffer)

That's not too surprising, though. I know of a former HRS caseworker who personally filed three reports w/ the child abuse hotline in Tally. When he checked a year later they'd also vanished.

I don't believe your story because so many people have told me otherwise. You asked to hear from former SAFE clients, you got an eyeful from one of them and you haven't responded at all. You also haven't explained how 1995 was only three years ago in your world. :wink:

I know for a fact that they don't let adults leave because, just about a year and a half ago, a half dozen or so friends of mine witnessed a 21 year old young man try to run on the way out to the car at night. The response from the group (including parents) was just exactly the same as it ever was in The Seed in the `70's or in Straight in the `80's or in the interview by the girl who tried to make a break for the door her first open meeting night in around `99. It seems highly unlikely to me that everything changed for you from 92 - 95 then suddenly changed back again immediately after you left.

In short, your story doesn't wash. That's why I asked about the first and most impotent rule. You're not being honest, friend.

Power concedes nothing without a demand. The limit of oppression is determined by the extent of the endurance of the oppressed.
--Frederick Douglas

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 05, 2003, 01:10:00 PM
It is always nice to make new friends.   I do not recall ever writing that I worked there three years ago.  Three years ago I was not even in the State of Florida.  Like you, I am surprised, shocked, and disappointed by many of the things that I am hearing and reading about the SAFE program now.  My last tie to when I worked just left last week.  The program has changed from when I worked there.  1995-2003 Alot can happen in 8 years.  The biggest change has been the clinical director.  We had a wonderful one when I worked there.  Personally I could not stand her, but she knew what she was talking about and put the kids first.  

Brian Seeber has taken over for Loretta and it is my understanding that he has a child in the program.  This is bullshit.  Program parents should have nothing to do with running the program they are in.  It violates the ethics of counseling which state that you can not have a dual relationship with a client.

If what you are saying about adults is true, call the police and report kidnapping.  You brought a vaild point, I dont think HRS keeps records anymore unless it is a founded case of abuse.

_________________
Tis hard for an empty bag to stand upright.
-Ben Franklin

[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2003-11-05 10:11 ]
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 05, 2003, 01:58:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-11-05 10:10:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

" The program has changed from when I worked there.  1995-2003 Alot can happen in 8 years.  The biggest change has been the clinical director.  We had a wonderful one when I worked there.  Personally I could not stand her, but she knew what she was talking about and put the kids first.  
Loretta Parish was on staff before the name change and still on staff through the time when Weaver Hastings and Jeff H were there.

Quote

Brian Seeber has taken over for Loretta and it is my understanding that he has a child in the program.  This is bullshit.  Program parents should have nothing to do with running the program they are in.  It violates the ethics of counseling which state that you can not have a dual relationship with a client.

????? WTF are you talking about! Parent staff have always been a part of the program. This goes back to the days of Helen Peterman w/ The Seed, Straight and LIFE and continues to this day. Again, it's very hard for me to believe that they quit all these messed up practices just for you while you were there then switched back to the same program as soon as your back was turned.

It seems more likely to me that your perceptions are a little cloudy as a result of having gone through the program yourself. This is pretty evident from your inability to see that imprisonment is just about the only word to describe how SAFE keeps their clients from leaving.

Quote

If what you are saying about adults is true, call the police and report kidnapping.  You brought a vaild point, I dont think HRS keeps records anymore unless it is a founded case of abuse.


DCYF, like the police, is required to keep all records. The trouble is that, just as in Ft. Lauderdale in The Seed's hay day and like Pinellas in Straight's hayday, the police cheat for the program.

When the kidnapping occured, the folks who were there protesting tried to block the car from leaving while calling 911 on the cell phone. The car, driven by a member of the parents' group, left out the back way. The cops never got there for some time and, when they did, it wasn't about a kidnapping complaint, it was a tresspassing complaint against the protestors. The cops simply refused to take the complaint till a couple of people traveled back to Orlando the next day and insisted on it again.

Again, who do you think you're fooling here?

As your attorney, it is my duty to inform you that it is not important that you understand what I'm doing or why you're paying me so much money.  What's important is that you continue to do so.
--Hunter S. Thompson's Samoan Attorney

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: ehm on November 05, 2003, 02:18:00 PM
Morally and ethically. What you are doing is destroying their trust in you, forever. The Program of which you speak is bad for children and adults. PERIOD. You people act like children aren't people. Like they'll forget false imprisonment for emotional problems that can be closely related to the family itself, and should seek counseling for as a whole. Isolating the child only invites that one thing... ISOLATION! Perhaps you never saw the abuse, misconduct and dysfunction of the center you worked for, but I'd just about bet my life on the fact that it was there. Everyday, it was there. You were either too blind to see or too willing to turn the other cheek or both. Either way, I'll bet somewhere inside of you, YOU KNEW. Why else would you be here? Curiosity blew your cover.

Lying to children is NEVER right.
Never, ever, ever, EVER. Unless you want them to grow up not trusting you... What kind of a parent/person gambles with such a thing? One that has no business being a parent or working with children or people in general for that matter.

Lying and force get you in trouble, not helped.

The fact is the fact, the program is evil, and every attempt to make
chicken salad out of chicken shit has resulted in a Chicken shit
sandwich, No pickle on the side could ever change that.

BINGO!

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 05, 2003, 03:13:00 PM
Again, I think I have not made myself clear.   Parents have always been involved with the program, as program parents-open meetings, parent group, host homes, etc.  Their involvement has been as people receiving family therapy.  Brian Seeber in addition to this role, is the Program Director.  He is an employee of SAFE.  He works there in addition to being in family therapy there.

Whats the big deal?  Say Brian gets confronted for breaking a program rule by a staff member on Friday or Sunday.  He is in a position to fire, reprimand, etc. that same employee when he shows up to work on Monday.  Does that make sense?  Not to me.

Also, there is a difference between the Clinical Director and the Program Director.  Have you guys forgotten your Chain of Command?  Loretta P was the Program Dir.  The person I was referring was the clincial director-the person who was responsible for client care.




[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2003-11-05 12:19 ]
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 05, 2003, 03:50:00 PM
Yes, Helen Peterman, Cathy Cone, Miller Newton, the Semblers, Kathy Crow, Bill Oliver and, I'm sure, a whole slew of other execs came up through the ranks in exactly the same way Brian Seeber did. I don't know where Loretta Parrish came from, but if she came in by some other way, she's the exception, not the rule.

Speaking of the Chain of Command, did you ever read this report?
http://thestraights.com/reports/WhySeni ... elapse.doc (http://thestraights.com/reports/WhySeniorStaffRelapse/Why%20Senior%20Staff%20Relapse.doc)

If so, what do you think?

People who are willing to give up freedom for the sake of short term security, deserve neither freedom nor security.

--Benjamin Franklin

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 05, 2003, 04:03:00 PM
I have no problem with parents who have completed the program and their aftercare, who are qualified to work there.  They should not work there if they are an active client.

I will read that article and let you know.  I appreciate you not saying I was a liar or full of shit in that last post-haha.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 05, 2003, 04:08:00 PM
Brian's kid was either a 5th phaser or on staff back in 2000 when I met Brian. How damned long does this new and improved program take, anyway?

I don't know if you're lying or just a tad bit in denial. But I know that a lot of what you're saying is not true.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
--Bruce Lee

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Aqua Fortis on November 05, 2003, 04:12:00 PM
OK, everyone's so busy this and that, but, would the exsafecounselor please answer the questions I asked in an earlier post, last one on page 7. Thank you.

Aqua Fortis
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Carmel on November 05, 2003, 04:14:00 PM
"We had a wonderful one when I worked there. Personally I could not stand her, but she knew what she was talking about and put the kids first."

Hmmm...about 5 pages ago, you said that the clinical director had no business being there.  Puts the kids first then eh? Ya....gotcha.  

By the way, I never saw anyone restrained with any sort of "device".  Staff's version of "approved" restraints consisted of merely "staff" performing the restraint itself.  I saw 4-5 kids tackle, sit on, and pin kids without need of any "device".  The sheetrockers were in our group about 1-2 times every two weeks repairing the holes in the walls.   We had that "only staff can restrain" BS for a few weeks, until about 1/3 of the entire group decide to mutiny.....that went out the window.  

Regardless, I wont ever be able to open your eyes for you....however, you should take a serious look at the facts, even if it means disregarding our opinions on this board.  The abuse is there, was there and will be there until the place is gone.  The very essence of the treatment method fosters abuse and trauma.

I am not merely disagreeing with you Ex, it is just not possible for what you say to be a reality.  Not given the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Carmel on November 05, 2003, 04:24:00 PM
I would also like to know how going through a treatment program, run by treatment graduates, qualifies a person to be a treatment director.  

I would think that at a very basic level, treatment would need to have certain amount of objectivity to be even remotely effective.  Some parent who knows dick about therpay except for going through treatment themselves has no objectivity and no business making life changing decisions on behalf of others children.  Same goes for clients.

It would be like hiring only ex-prison inmates to work as prison guards and administrators....after all, they have been there right?  And lets not forget the Warden.....
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Carmel on November 05, 2003, 04:24:00 PM
"We had a wonderful one when I worked there. Personally I could not stand her, but she knew what she was talking about and put the kids first."

Hmmm...about 5 pages ago, you said that the clinical director had no business being there.  Puts the kids first then eh? Ya....gotcha.  

By the way, I never saw anyone restrained with any sort of "device".  Staff's version of "approved" restraints consisted of merely "staff" performing the restraint itself.  I saw 4-5 kids tackle, sit on, and pin kids without need of any "device".  The sheetrockers were in our group about 1-2 times every two weeks repairing the holes in the walls.   We had that "only staff can restrain" BS for a few weeks, until about 1/3 of the entire group decide to mutiny.....that went out the window.  

Regardless, I wont ever be able to open your eyes for you....however, you should take a serious look at the facts, even if it means disregarding our opinions on this board.  The abuse is there, was there and will be there until the place is gone.  The very essence of the treatment method fosters abuse and trauma.

I am not merely disagreeing with you Ex, it is just not possible for what you say to be a reality.  Not given the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 05, 2003, 04:27:00 PM
There is alot in there that I agree with.  I glanced over the parts about how one becomes a Senior staff member and fouces on the bottom half of the article.  Arrogance and ego are dangerous to any recoverying person.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 05, 2003, 04:28:00 PM
Carmetl, please read some earlier post and they will answer some of your questions.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 05, 2003, 04:37:00 PM
Aqua Safe, I dont have any idea what you are talking about.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 05, 2003, 04:40:00 PM
No wait, Carmel! I had orthopoedic surgery on my knee back in `94. Ortho surgeons get paid pretty well, don't they? Think I could hang out a shingle? No, well how about Ortho therapy? I did that too. Think of it! All those nice, firm young athletes paying me big bucks to bend their aching limbs till they cry! Can I do it, pleeeeeeaaaaaasssss???

Quote
It would be like hiring only ex-prison inmates to work as prison guards and administrators....after all, they have been there right? And lets not forget the Warden.....


Seriously, they do this! I once saw a piece on  Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio's jailhouse rehab where one of his jr. staff, explained why former inmates make the best COs and how she was looking forward to going on staff full time just as soon as her sentence was up. I shit you not!
http://www.phxnews.com/fullstory.php?article=5784 (http://www.phxnews.com/fullstory.php?article=5784)


Whoever kindles the flames of intolerance in America is lighting a fire underneath his own home.
--Harold E. Stassen, 1947



_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
   10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on November 05, 2003, 05:29:00 PM
Ex...Let me tellyou how clients described the freedon to call the abusive hotline. They were told sure you can call, but the hell and torment they went thru if they did. Many did not call as they felt it were scared to death of the repercussions of the call. So to say they had the freeodm to call sounds wonderful and it does say that but go beyond the hidden words and ask kids what happened when they did call. They were laughed at, shunned ridiculed.

barb h
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 05, 2003, 05:43:00 PM
I can not say this enough that nothing remotely close to that happened at SAFE, while I worked there.  Actually, just the opposite happened.  After a misbehavior called HRS about 5-6 times and nothing happened, they realized that they would not get out of the program that way. Sometimes they realized that the only way to get out was to work and change.

Isnt that amazing?
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 05, 2003, 05:52:00 PM
I am not wanting to mess with anyone's head, but rather try to understand their situation. If anyone was in the program at SAFE from 8/92-6/95, then I will be able to have a very detailed, specific conversation with them. The bottom line is that my time and their time at SAFE is over and there is no reason to be held down by the past if you can avoid it.

For those people that sufferred at the hands of abusive STRAIGHT people, I feel bad and will help in anyway I can.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 05, 2003, 06:00:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-11-05 14:43:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

"I can not say this enough that nothing remotely close to that happened at SAFE, while I worked there.  Actually, just the opposite happened.  After a misbehavior called HRS about 5-6 times and nothing happened, they realized that they would not get out of the program that way. Sometimes they realized that the only way to get out was to work and change.



Isnt that amazing?"


Something doesn't add up here. I've had two seperate visits to my home by HRS/DCYF over the years. The complaints were made by my daughter's father (my ex boyfriend) and, years later, by her ex boyfriend. Both times the complaints were immediately ruled unfounded. But both times the caseworker explained that they are obliged by law to follow up each visit.

How is it that they don't come follow up complaints that come from SAFE?

What you view as a confrontation out of care and concern for doubting one's program, non cult members would view as brow beating and intimidation. It's not at all surprising that, after trying to call for help a few times and getting nothing but punishment in return a sensible kid will give up hope and try another strategy.

The question is, if the kid actually wants to get help (as you insinuated in an earlier post) then why do you have to manipulate them so hard to make them take it?

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of it's victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busy-bodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
-- C.S. Lewis.

Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
--John Adams

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 05, 2003, 06:10:00 PM
They do come out every time, but after they come out and nothing happens the child learns.  The client is never punished.  This did not happen at all while I worked at SAFE.  

If you consider operant conditioning manipulation, then the kids were manipualted.  But don't argue with me, argue with the doctors that developed this concept decades ago.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 05, 2003, 06:33:00 PM
What makes you think any doctors, other than Skinner, Cameron and Mengela had anything to do with this? And who do you think they might be? The 'treatment' modality used in SAFE is based on Chuck Deterich's Synanon Game.

What you're describing here is nothing more than proving to the kid that they're entirely helpless and that there is NO way they're ever going to escape.

Yes, it's manipulative. Especially in the context of the "You did the necessary things to be here" mantra. No they didn't. They did every reasonable thing to get out. But you know as well as I do that the game was rigged from the beginning.

This, friend, is imprisonment. And, without due process, it's false imprisonment. No matter how many politicians and bureaucrats they keep on pay or under blackmail, it's still criminal activity.

Marihuana influences Negroes to look at white people in the eye, step on white men's shadows and look at a white woman twice.



--Hearst newspapers nationwide, 1934



_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
   10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 05, 2003, 06:47:00 PM
http://www.ispn-psych.org/docs/99childrens-rights.pdf (http://www.ispn-psych.org/docs/99childrens-rights.pdf)

It continues to amaze me to talk to law students -- college
graduates all and smarter than the average bear -- who will
seriously tell me about how dangerous mj is and how it
destroys the lives of those who use it and who, in the
very next sentence, will tell me how they and their
friends -- now CPAs, engineers, med students -- used
pot regularly through high school and college.  And
they don't see the contradiction between these statements.

We're not just talking ignorance here -- we are talking
deep down, serious, religious indoctrination.


--Buford C. Terrell, Professor of Law, South Texas College of Law

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Aqua Fortis on November 05, 2003, 07:42:00 PM
Go ahead, ex dude, call me a name. Call me another one if you get off on it so much. I suspect now that you are incapable of answering the questions I asked you, so no biggy.  

Aqua Fortis         :wave:
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Carmel on November 05, 2003, 07:44:00 PM
Yeah Ginger, but I was thinking maybe we should all be professional street fighters.....




 ::bangin::
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 05, 2003, 07:53:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-11-05 15:10:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

They do come out every time, but after they come out and nothing happens the child learns. The client is never punished. This did not happen at all while I worked at SAFE.


There's another thing. In my case, the allegedly abused children didn't make the or coroborate the complaints. How is it that DCYF (or, back then, HRS) can walk away from a kid who's asking to be removed to their custody?

Could it possibly have anything to do with all the big wheels on the BOD and BOA of DFAF? (which, not coincidentally, also used to be called Straight, Inc.)

Everybody's lost just waiting to be found. Everyone's a thought just waiting to fade.
-- Billy Corgan of The Smashing Pumpkins

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 05, 2003, 07:56:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-11-05 16:44:00, Carmel wrote:

"Yeah Ginger, but I was thinking maybe we should all be professional street fighters.....



 ::bangin:: "


Nah, they get beat up a lot and don't get paid much. I once hired a lawyer, though. They make good money and work short hours. Plus the sort of watch eachother's backs, professional couresey being what it is. I think I'd like to do that instead. I imagine it would be a whole lot like my childhood dream of being a tourist when I grow up.

The man who views the world at 50 the same as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.
-- Muhammad Ali

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: ClayL on November 06, 2003, 08:48:00 AM
Isn't it funny that the guy never responded to the accusation that SAFE had a financial reason to find that all potential "clients" have a drug problem? I quote from my post on page 5, "I also think straight, SAFE and the like have a fiduciary predisposition to find drug problems in children."

Then he goes on to tout the DSMIV. You know, if they had actually used this, a good portion of us would not have been misdiagnosed. The problem with the DSMIV definition of addiction, is that the same behaviours are present in quite a few other disorders in the book. Without the aforementioned predisposition, the person making the diagnosis would most likely look somewhere else in the book to find the correct disorder for an adolescent or someone in their late teens. All the review is subject to being interpreted by the reviewer.

CL
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on November 06, 2003, 10:16:00 AM
Aquafortis-I did not realize I was name calling sorry.  SAFE gets paid based upon admissions-absolutely.  They are just like any other facility in that regard.  But I think what you are trying to say is that SAFE manufactures symptoms in order to justify certain diagnosis.  Again, when I worked there it did not happen.  I will admit that we did everything humanly possible to clinically justify an admission.  There were times when we discharge kids who did not meet the criteria for admission.  Again, I think that you have had a different experience at STRAIGHT then I did when I was working at SAFE.

Again I am not a lawyer, but to my knowledge HRS has no authority to remove a minor child simply because they asked to be removed. There has to be some basis (abuse, neglect, endangerment) for them to act.  

Regarding the whole cult thing, this is something I do not understand.  At the beginning of the program, a client basically lives in a fishbowl.  Based upon their actions, they slowly come out of the fishbowl and have more freedoms.  Eventually, they are able to leave the program and live their life.  It is my understanding that a cult never wants a person to leave.  I must admit that the SAFE culture did create a certain aptmosphere where people, even after they graduated wanted to hang around the building. As an exec staff member there, I found that I was almost constantly thinking about work or working.  I do believe that is somewhat of an occupational hazard, but when I worked at other facilites, I did not feel that as strongly.  Leaving SAFE was a good thing for me because of all the games and power-trips that Loretta played.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 06, 2003, 10:28:00 AM
:wave:
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on November 09, 2003, 11:05:00 AM
it is hard for it to stand up unless, of course there is a safe counsler's erection inside.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: TinaMC on November 10, 2003, 06:57:00 AM
Ex,
I think you said that you were there from 92-95, I just find that it is hard to believe that "SAFE" could have changed that much from Straight in that short of time. I think it would be more probable if you were talking about present time, then I could believe that in could have had a chance to transform into your version. The version, I think ,that most people could live with. You admit yourself that you were drawn into it more than anyother job that you have had, perhaps you are still wearing those "Rose colored glasses"?!
I do agree with you in the fact that children do not have quite the same rights as their parents, but they do have the right to live in a safe and violent free place. Without mind or physical abuse (which Straight did impose), have the liberty to use the facility when needed, not when they are told to go and in privacy. The right to talk to their parents and I'm not talking about 2 or 3 months down the line. I would go mad if I couldn't talk to my daughter everyday!! My daughter is almost 9yrs and I can say that she doesn't have the right to do as she pleases as some of the others seem to imply. I'm sure it isn't that way at their houses either, but I would never allow my daughter in a place like straight or anything that resembles it. I hope in nevers comes to having to do that but if it did you can be damm sure that I will do my homework and make sure her Rights, her Soul and her Body would never be compromised. Everyone has the right to sunshine, fresh air and exercise. None of which I saw much of for my 3 month stay(I split). Living in Florida at one time you can appreciate the heat and know that we were only allowed kool aid (dixie cup size) at lunch and dinner, never any water that I can remember. We had no airconditioning, only the warehouse doors being up about 2-3 feet from the ground to let alittle Hot air circulate. I believe that POSITIVE not negative reinforcement builds a positive person, none of which I ever saw at Straight. I would say most if not all of us had low self esteem, so how is it spitting, sreaming, belittling and sitting on people for hours suppost to help exactly???? Please do tell, b/c that one has been puzzling me for 23 years.
Since we all know that Straight closed and Safe opened in 92, I find it hard to believe as I said before that much would have changed from what the space of a few months. I find it more believable that you had a blind eye to what was really going on. There were alot of people put in there for other reasons other than drug problems, I for one was put in there b/c I smoked pot and skipped school alot. In my day (1980) that was pretty normal, but my mother worked for a judge and well you can piece the rest together.
You can talk until you are blue but know this that you will never be able to change most of the peoples opinions on this web site, We unfortunately "lived the nightmare".
Tina

Where powers are assumed which have not been delegated, a nullification of the act is the rightful remedy.
Thomas Jefferson: Kentucky Resolutions, 1798



[ This Message was edited by: TinaMC on 2003-11-10 04:01 ]
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: sammiegirl on November 10, 2003, 07:19:00 AM
Listen I am not as upset as you think. I am over what happened to me 20plus yrs ago. The thing is that I know for certain SAFE NEVER Changed.
While at a protest at SAFE I witnessed a Young man trying to escape and when I tried to assist this person I was personaly assulted not only by SAFELINGS but BY THE MALE PARENTS ALSO>>>
I was there to assist in a peaceful demonstration and was doing so until a child was attacked and thrown into the back of a car and held down by the same tactics as we used in STRAIGHT.
I will not blame you for falling into the docterin, but now you have been away from it enough to know it is wrong.
YES, sometimes children need in-hospital assistance.
NEVER does a child need treatment as was/is practiced in SAFE/STRAIGHT.
You said you worked w/ LORETTA. And that you did not agree with her. Obviously you wanted to change some things. So why not just admit that the kids were mistreated and help end this nightmare.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: sammiegirl on November 10, 2003, 08:01:00 AM
Quote
On 2003-11-05 15:10:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

"They do come out every time, but after they come out and nothing happens the child learns.  The client is never punished.  This did not happen at all while I worked at SAFE.  



If you consider operant conditioning manipulation, then the kids were manipualted.  But don't argue with me, argue with the doctors that developed this concept decades ago.
"

OK
1. I saw a SAFELING picked up by his limbs and SHOVED into BRIAN SEEBERS car which was being driven by MRS SEEBER.
This young man approx 16-18 yrs was wearing a stripped tee shirt had short cropped red hair and wanted to leave the program. HE WAS ATTACKED BY TWO SAFELINGS NOT STAFF. THROWN AROUND AND FORCED INTO THE CAR. HE WAS RESTRAINED INSIDE THE CAR. THIS I KNOW B/C I STOOD INFRONT OF THE CAR TO BLOCK PASSAGE UNTIL THE COPS CAME AND I SAW THE RESTRAINT.
2.OPERANT CONDITIONING!!!!!!!!!!!!
Are you pulling crap from your ass??
This was studied by Pavlov. Ring a bell the dog salivates. Then Skinner, If you continuly shock a mouse that tries to go for its food will the mouse stop trying to eat?
Then mao se tong. If you imprison people remove all dignity will they reform? Will they inform on their peers inorder to seek favor from their captors? will they become one of US?
Lets look at the history of Psychology.
It was once thought that if you dump a psychotic person numerous times into freezing water it will shock them into sanity. It was once thought that frontal labotomies were useful in dealing with all sorts of mental illnesses. Forced steralization and strange chasity deviced would cure deviants. At one time Malformed children were placed into the woods to die as they were thought to be evil. Priests and elders burnt people at the stake. Would you consider doing this today? Of course not! But you know labotamies were practiced until 1986! Forced chasity devices are used today! And children are being CONDITIONED OPERANTLY. Because one person does it, does NOT make it right, we all learn from errors. And we all evolve. You need to continue your education of the long term effects of coerced treatment and behavior modification. SEE THE WEB SIGHTS FROM VFW POWs. They never went through STRAIGHT SAFE ect. but still they were treated in the same manner as we. Yes not as harsh but damn close. Their symptoms are paralell[sp]. I will not stand by and enable you to continue your games and minipulations. Nothing you write will ever convince me that SAFE was a FREINDLIER PLACE BS.
PS you stated it from the start DECADS AGO AND PROVEN IT DOESN'T WORK SO WHY DEFEND IT.
We used to bleed people for illnesses until we found it was the bleeding that was killing most of the patients. Should we continue?
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 10, 2003, 10:29:00 AM
So many things to comment on-It is obvious that you and I have different opinions of abuse.  For example, motivating to me is not abuse.  Not even close.  To you, however, it is.  Knowing that you think that way, I can only imagine your level of disgust and disdain for any place like Straight.  

I have read on different sites about the incident with the protest and the child running toward you.  It was absolutely wrong for that kid to be stopped.  While I was at SAFE, once a child was out of the building, staff could do nothing.  

When you guys talk about being deprived of water, bathroom, etc. I can not state more emphatically that things like that did not occur from 92-95, when I worked there.  

You say you are not angry anymore.  Please go back and review what you have written.  Blood letting?  Drama is best kept to the stage.  What happened to you at Straight did not happen to any of the kids on my watch.

If it makes you feel any better, I can not imagine SAFE being open for much longer.

I to have a 9 year old daughter and am doing my best to keep her on the right track so that I am not faced with decisions your parents had to make.  

It has been over 8 years since I worked there and I still feel very proud of the work I did there.  I am not brainwashed.  I am not under some cult like influence.  I did disagree with Loretta on many things, but that did not mean abuse or negelct happened there, because it did not.  

I would urge you to call the police, HRS, or whoever else will listen and tell them what you think.  I have also read that many of you beleive that the local and state authorities are covering for SAFE.  Call the FBI, show them the WAMI video, fill out personal affadavits, and see what happens.  I am not sure, but I would guess that after a big investigation, nothing will happen. Those of you who are doing things like this, I applaud your efforts to try and make things better.  For those of you who are simply unhappy and complaining, may I suggest a local AA meeting.  

_________________
Tis hard for an empty bag to stand upright.
-Ben Franklin

[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2003-11-10 07:31 ]
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 10, 2003, 10:36:00 AM
Here's the nut of the issue from my POV. What would it take for you to decide that your little girl came out 'wrong' and needs to be reformatted like a fulty disk drive? Does your fidelity lie more with your child or with the drug warriors?

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
Douglas Adams, _Last Chance to See_

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 10, 2003, 02:30:00 PM
My child comes first of course.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antibody? on November 10, 2003, 02:45:00 PM
I hung around CEDU for 25 years. I was a Therapist at Boulder Creek and Rocky Mountain Academy for years I'm Sure SAFE is no different because They all are extentions of Amity, Mind Dynamics, Est, Lifespring, Scientology. They are all breeding rodents that beget more rodents.
Larry at Boulder Creek Academy - La Teresa just did "Landmark Forum" with him again. Larry was former WWASP - Montana Academy - Now CEDU staff are traveling to do "Landmark Forum" which is the new EST - all these orgs use brainwashing by pop psych done by untrained staff and doing so is dangerous. These former staff have no other line of work, so they go on defending brainwashing as "saving kids." In actuality, they are psychologically abusing and even killing kids. May they all be flushed into the sewers where they can join the other rodents eating mind and soul - but this time of each other.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 10, 2003, 03:18:00 PM
Since I worked at SAFE, all the professional staff, who were all certified addictions professionals in the state of florida, no longer work in the mental health field any longer.  

Either you are mistaken or so focused on being right that you are not willing to listen.  Most of what you wrote is so far off base about how we apllied to model at SAFE, that I question where you got the info from.

I do agree that many people, more than most industries, in the mental health field have their own issues which are unresolved.  Loretta P. for example, was a master manipulator and control freak.  She was tough to work for.  

You guys throw the term brainwashing around quite a bit.  The point of SAFE was to take everything away from them, and as they grew and developed, to reintegrate them back into daily life.  Ultimately, they leave the building and come back when they want.  This is not brainwashing or cult-like.  We did enstill in them such crazy things like accountability, honestly, feeling expression, healthy family roles, healthy friendships, and we even went so far as to connect them with this other cult, Alcoholics Anonymous, so they would not have to keep coming back to the building.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 10, 2003, 03:18:00 PM
Since I worked at SAFE, all the professional staff, who were all certified addictions professionals in the state of florida, no longer work in the mental health field any longer.  I guess we did have other skills after all.

Either you are mistaken or so focused on being right that you are not willing to listen.  Most of what you wrote is so far off base about how we applied the model at SAFE, that I question where you got the info from.

I do agree that many people, more than in most industries, in the mental health field have their own issues which are unresolved.  Loretta P. for example, was a master manipulator and control freak.  She was tough to work for and I can understand why a parent would question her fitness to do her job.  Any person who is stupid enough to tell a reporter that her critics are "cockroaches", is not a smart or well person.

You guys throw the term brainwashing around quite a bit.  The point of SAFE was to take everything away from them, and as they grew and developed, to reintegrate them back into daily life.  Ultimately, they leave the building and come back when they want.  This is not brainwashing or cult-like.  We did enstill in them such crazy things like accountability, honestly, feeling expression, healthy family roles, healthy friendships, and we even went so far as to connect them with this other cult, Alcoholics Anonymous, so they would not have to keep coming back to the building.


_________________
Tis hard for an empty bag to stand upright.
-Ben Franklin

[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2003-11-10 12:21 ]
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 10, 2003, 03:26:00 PM
The things that everyone are saying is why I would like to speak with SAFE clients that were in during my stay.  I know what they experienced and want to get their opinion on what happened.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 10, 2003, 04:16:00 PM
Sure, they leave the building and come back when they're supposed to or their parents change the locks and try and starve them into submission. Brainwashing, ya' think? I tiny little thing like convincing a kid's parents that withdrawal of support and affection is somehow therapeutic?

You act asif we know nothing about SAFE, asif none of us talk to people who were there before, during or after your time. Why don't you give your name and see if any old friends of yours turn up to say hi?

Education is that which remains, if one has forgotten everything he learned in school.
--Albert Einstein, Out of My Later Years, 1950

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 10, 2003, 04:31:00 PM
You have a teenage child who has used drugs, been in trouble with the law, destroyed your property, and made your life a living hell.  When that child runs away from the program that you put them in to end the insanity and knocks on your door, why in God's name would you welcome them back.  

I can just imagine a parent saying that I dont care what you did in the past and I dont care that you did not get any better in treatment, I am just so glad to see you that I wont make you go better if you dont want.  

In reality, we had quite a few of those parents.  They were the first to say that they disagreed with our rules.  I wonder if their child made a miraculous turn around.



_________________
Tis hard for an empty bag to stand upright.
-Ben Franklin

[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2003-11-10 13:33 ]
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 10, 2003, 04:36:00 PM
I have revealed my identity to some people on this sight, who give me the impression that they are reasonable, rational people.  Without even knowing me, people on this site have called me a child abuser, brainwasher, one guy called me a child molester (sp?), stupid, and I am sure I am forgetting a few.  

I know that many people have issues dating back from treatment at Straight and because of Straight.  I simply dont want them misdirecting their issues at me.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: sammiegirl on November 10, 2003, 05:07:00 PM
Either you are mistaken or so focused on being right that you are not willing to listen. Most of what you wrote is so far off base about how we applied the model at SAFE, that I question where you got the info from.

I have origional documents from your time at SAFE from parents and ex-staff and I have letters written by Loretta about parent behavior.
I have sworn testimony from SAFElings from your time.

Why won't they talk to you. WELL YOU ARE THEIR BOOGIEMAN!! Can't realy blame them. :wstupid:
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: sammiegirl on November 10, 2003, 05:08:00 PM
Since I worked at SAFE, all the professional staff, who were all certified addictions professionals in the state of florida, no longer work in the mental health field any longer. I guess we did have other skills after all.

Sorry I have to laugh :rofl:  :lol: A CAP takes 6 weeks and is a certificate that ANYONE can get. Show me your degree, allowing you to work w/children
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: sammiegirl on November 10, 2003, 05:12:00 PM
I do agree that many people, more than in most industries, in the mental health field have their own issues which are unresolved. :scared:  Loretta P. for example, was a master manipulator and control freak. :scared:  She was tough to work for and I can understand why a parent would question her fitness to do her job. :idea:
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: sammiegirl on November 10, 2003, 05:14:00 PM
I have revealed my identity to some people on this sight, who give me the impression that they are reasonable, rational people. Without even knowing me, people on this site have called me a child abuser, brainwasher, one guy called me a child molester (sp?), stupid, and I am sure I am forgetting a few. :cry2: Sucks doesn't it.
Well you have a taste of what the kids went through during confrontation.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 10, 2003, 05:17:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-11-10 13:31:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

"You have a teenage child who has used drugs, been in trouble with the law, destroyed your property, and made your life a living hell.  When that child runs away from the program that you put them in to end the insanity and knocks on your door, why in God's name would you welcome them back.  

Well, I would never put her in a program that kept her against her will and incommunicado in the first place. But when my problem child knocked on my door wanting to come home (well, actually she called) we welcomed her back because we love her.

Quote

I can just imagine a parent saying that I dont care what you did in the past and I dont care that you did not get any better in treatment, I am just so glad to see you that I wont make you go better if you dont want.  

At some point, a parent has to realize that the kid is grown and has to figure some things out for themselves. I can't make my daughter do or be anything she doesn't choose.

Quote

In reality, we had quite a few of those parents.  They were the first to say that they disagreed with our rules.  I wonder if their child made a miraculous turn around.


Well, I can tell you that my dad defected from Straight just a few months after I did and was very supportive of me from then until he died. But I did settle down, marry, have a family, buy a house, start a business and, overall, am very happy with my life. I wouldn't call it miraculous, though. That's actually how it usually plays out. If you're really interested, you should try and remember the names of some of the pull-offs, look them up and ask them how things worked out. You'll probably be surprised more often than not.

What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson



_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
   10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 10, 2003, 05:24:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-11-10 13:36:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

"I have revealed my identity to some people on this sight, who give me the impression that they are reasonable, rational people.  Without even knowing me, people on this site have called me a child abuser, brainwasher, one guy called me a child molester (sp?), stupid, and I am sure I am forgetting a few.  



I know that many people have issues dating back from treatment at Straight and because of Straight.  I simply dont want them misdirecting their issues at me.  
"


That's about like saying you occasionally have dinner with Jeffrey Dauhmer, he's a really nice guy and never serves human when you come to visit. If you defend child abuse and child abusers, of COURSE people are going to paint you with the same brush.

I'd like to see your answer to Sammie's question about not reporting Loretta Parish. Further, would you care to speculate about how you might have responded to investigator questions if/when someone else reported her?

I know that our bodies were made to thrive only in pure air, and the scenes in which pure air is found.
-- John Muir

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 10, 2003, 05:30:00 PM
I cut and pasted this from the Certification Board of Addicition Professionals website.

CAP

Certified Addiction Professional

This classification is viewed as the title for the addiction treatment professional primarily involved in providing direct treatment services in addictions. The requirements for this classification are as follows:

Degree: Bachelor?s Degree (minimum)
Experience: 6,000 hours of Direct Service
(within past 10 years)
 
Supervision: 300 hours of Direct Supervision
(A minimum of 10 hours must be documented in each skill area)
 
Education: 300 hours of Education:
145 hours of Addiction education
125 hours in Counseling education
30 hours must be in Ethics
4 hours must be in HIV/AIDS*
2 hours must be in Domestic Violence*
* Part of the total Education requirement, and counts for either Addiction or Counseling.  
Written exam(s): Florida Specific Exam, and International Exam
Oral exam: Yes **

** Oral exam exemption: For applicants applying for the CAP certification with a Master?s Degree in a clinical counseling or counseling-related field (i.e., social work, mental health counseling, marriage and family, psychology), the oral exam may be waived if the following requirements are met:

Degree was received from a fully accredited institution, recognized by the U.S. Department of Education or Commission on Recognition of Postsecondary Accreditation, AND EITHER:
Have at least one university-sponsored supervised clinical practicum, internship, or field experience in a counseling setting where you provided clinical services directly to clients, OR
Have registered Intern Status through the Agency for Health Care Administration.
A written request to waive the oral exam must accompany your application.

Not quite what you thought, is it.  It seems that we can learn from each other.  Does this allow me to work with children?  6000 hours of direct service, 300 hours of direct supervision, 300 hours of education, a written and an oral exam.  All of this prior to becoming certified.  I am qualified or at least I was, I dropped my certification a couple of years after I left the indusry.

Check it our for yourself http://www.netinstitute.net/CertProcess2.htm#CAP (http://www.netinstitute.net/CertProcess2.htm#CAP)


[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2003-11-10 14:36 ]

[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2003-11-10 14:37 ]

[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2003-11-10 14:41 ]
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 10, 2003, 05:32:00 PM
There are many controlling, manipulative people who are not abusive.  If I called HRS, I could tell them that she does not listen to staff in our meetings, she has unresolved personal issues, and she is a religious hypocrite.  Does HRS cover those kinds of things now?
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 10, 2003, 05:33:00 PM
I have never, nor will I ever defend child abuse or child abusers.  If I have please let me know.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 10, 2003, 05:44:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-11-10 14:33:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

"I have never, nor will I ever defend child abuse or child abusers.  If I have please let me know.
"


I'm trying to.

Can you at least better imagine the bizarre concept of a parent giving unconditional love and support to a child, even if the child doesn't do as she's told?

Q. I simply ask, why is PUNISHMENT the solution with regards to the narrow group of behaviors which encompass illegal drug use....?

A.Pharmaceutical Business, both legal and illegal, run by the same people either way, money coming to the middle from both ends.  Bush.
Bill Gallagher

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 10, 2003, 05:53:00 PM
You and I are really on the same page when it comes to many things.  Unconditional love is an absolute.  I still do not think that this means a parent should relent to a child in need of treatment, who does not like being in treament, and asks to be removed.  I do not like disciplining my kids, but it is absolutely necessary for them to receive it.  Children as a whole crave discipline.  They have so many choices they want someone to give them guidelines.  It is a relief for them.  Please look up adolescent development, if you do not buy what I am saying.  

I am not saying chain and shackle a child, but give them direction.  We gave kids choices-work or dont work.  If you worked, you were rewarded.   If you did not, you were consequenced.  Sometimes this meant a "mike" talk, or group confrontation, or not advancing, or whatever was appropriate.  Spitting, hitting, depriving of food, water, shelter, medical care, was never a punishment.  

You mentioned that you had documents.  Is there any way I could look at them.  I am truly interested in what the parents and kids thought and think.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 10, 2003, 05:53:00 PM
[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2003-11-10 14:53 ]
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 10, 2003, 06:31:00 PM
You're talking to two different people. I'm the one w/ the 19yo prodigal daughter. Sammie's the one with the documents.

There are different ways to interpret the way you describe punishment and reward and the concept of discipline. Then there's the underlying problem of taking responsibility for every detail and aspect of the life and experience of a young adult. One thing I've noticed consistently about forme program clients is that their view of how helpful or harmful the program was is directly tied to their desire to change themselves in the first place.

Me? I didn't want to change myself. I had lived since the age of 6 with a neurotic mother who was just determined to believe that all 6 of her kids were druggiesinneedof treatment. All I wanted to change had been my living arrangements. To me, being brow beaten and constantly pressured to admit to drug problems and personality flaws and failings and guilt was abusive as hell.

If you assume that the diagnosis is correct, you might not see that as abusive. But you assume so much. Fact is, there are not enough genuine 16 year old drug addicts in all of North America to keep all these little gulags stacked. That means there are a lot of kids being forced through your vaunted Pavlovian techniques to denounce themselves and call it honesty. That is psychological torture!

Try this. Imagine you're married to a pathologically jealous and suspicious wife. Assume you take pride in fidelity, honesty and high morals along the lines of old fashioned American Christian boundaries of marital fidelity. But every time you walk through the door, you know you're going to get it.

Now, imagine you have 100 such wives and no job! Worse? Divorce or seperation are not options. If you try to escape, the police will bring you back and your own family will admonish you to confess to your unfaithful thoughts and deeds.

That's what those of us who were never addicts to begin with went through, 12 hours a day, every day, more on the ride home, still more in the host home. I feel soriest for those who graduated and were compelled to continue the charade long afterward or lose the affection, support and acceptance of their families.

You know, if Mama Cass Elliot would have shared that damn sandwich
with Karen Carpenter, they would both still be alive today!!!!!!!

--chongo



_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
   10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 10, 2003, 06:57:00 PM
There are acutally two different types of drug diagnosis-addiction and abuse.  Most kids are actually not clinically diagnosed with addiction, but receive an abuse diagnosis.  I found this on the net.  It might be helpful.  Th

How can we tell if someone is abusing or addicted to drugs?

Diagnostic and Statistical Manual - III - R
[DSM-III-R is not currently used but has historical utility.] At least three of the following are necessary; some of the symptoms of the disturbance must have persisted for at least one month or have occurred repeatedly over a longer period of time:

Substance is often taken in larger amounts or over longer period than intended
Persistent desire or one or more unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control substance use
A great deal of time is spent in activities necessary to get the substance (e.g., theft), taking the substance (e.g., chain smoking), or recovering from its effects
Important social, occupational, or recreational activities given up or reduced because of substance abuse
Continued substance use despite knowledge of having a persistent or recurrent social, psychological, or physical problem that is caused or exacerbated by use of the substance
Marked tolerance: need for markedly increased amounts of the substance (> 500/ increase) in order to achieve intoxication or desired effect, or markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount
Characteristic withdrawal symptoms
Substance often taken to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms
Frequent intoxication or withdrawal symptoms when expected to fulfill major role obligations or when use is physically hazardous
Diagnostic and Statistical Manual - IV

A maladaptive pattern of substance use leading to clinically significant impairment or distress as manifested by three (or more) of the following, occurring at any time in the same 12-month period:

Substance is often taken in larger amounts or over longer period than intended
Persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control substance use
A great deal of time is spent in activities necessary to obtain the substance (e.g., visiting multiple doctors or driving long distances), use the substance (e.g., chain smoking), or recover from its effects
Important social, occupational, or recreational activities given up or reduced because of substance abuse
Continued substance use despite knowledge of having a persistent or recurrent psychological, or physical problem that is caused or exacerbated by use of the substance
Tolerance, as defined by either:

need for read amounts of the substance in order to achieve intoxication or desired effect; or
markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount
Withdrawal, as manifested by either:
characteristic withdrawal syndrome for the substance; or
the same (or closely related) substance is taken to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms

This is what is universally used throughout the United States.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 10, 2003, 06:59:00 PM
You are right, I really dont specifically reply to someone, I am just doing it generally.  I figure that others will read what I am writing anyway.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 10, 2003, 08:02:00 PM
Pure semantics. Smoking a joint after school was one of the healthiest things I'd ever done. It proved to me that Art Barker couldn't really read my mind when I went to open meeting the following Friday.

Regardless of how dire you think the situation is for these strangers who present at the door, it is morally wrong and horrendously harmful to force yourselves emotionally and psychologically on captive youths.

BTW, my daughter is doing fine. Working, saving, catching up with old friends who her psycho boyfriend wouldn't allow her to stay in contact with and getting ready for the Spring semester at the local community college.

Thanks for asking.

The graduate with a Science degree asks, "Why does it work?"
The graduate with an Engineering degree asks, "How does it work?"
The graduate with an Accounting degree asks, "How much will it cost?"
The graduate with a Liberal Arts degree asks, "Do you want fries with that?"
--Anonymous

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 10, 2003, 08:07:00 PM
Just to clarify what exactly are you referring to as somantics?
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 10, 2003, 08:17:00 PM
The difference between addiction and abuse (not to mention dependency...)

At the very bottom of it, SAFE and all similar programs take unwilling young people captive, usually against their will, and diagnose them as having some variety of drug problem (or even behavior that somehow presages a future drug problem) based on the observations of some third party. Once you have hold of the kid, you employ all kinds of psyche parlour tricks that most kids can't possibly understand to make them confess and believe that your diagnosis was correct.

Even if the kid did have some kind of problem related to drugs, the price of SAFE's brand of salvation amounts to denouncing themselves. If the kid with an actual drug problem ever wants to deal with it, they first have to sort out the difference between the bad, evil, death bound old self who existed before intake and whatever real problems they might have had.

That is abusive.

Look, it comes down to this. Professional psyche therapy is very like authentic friendship or familial love. It can be a wonderful thing if it's voluntary and if the participants don't get sidetracked on the financial arangements or other distractions.

But when you force it on an unwilling recipient, it's rape.

Not a place upon earth might be so happy as America. Her situation is remote from all the wrangling world, and she has nothing to do but to trade with them.
--Thomas Paine

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: sammiegirl on November 10, 2003, 08:27:00 PM
http://www.safeorlando.com/the_signs.html (http://www.safeorlando.com/the_signs.html)
Gee your definition and theirs don't seem to match up?? :???:
Does this mean that you misdiagnosed a multitude of unsuspecting clients. And not once does it say "Hey if you think your kids on drugs talk to him/her or "how about a private little pee test at the family Dr. and take it from there". No SAFE says "dump the foul mouthed bad dressed kid off here and we'll give you the NELSONS "take it away Ricky"
So didn't promote abuse?
Misuse your CAP??
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 10, 2003, 08:34:00 PM
Please go back and read what you wrote.  Rarely do you find a willing drug abuser/addict/whatever label you want to put in treatment.  Having worked with adults and kids, those who had something hanging over their head always did better.  In your world, therapy is either loving or rape.  Do you think you could be more dramatic.  I am sorry for what you went through.  It obviously has strongly affected who you are and how you feel about treatment of any kind.  Maybe in time as you mellow from your past experiences, you will see that there is alot of room between rape and loving therapy.

Again, at SAFE, we never invented symptoms.  They came from the kid, parents, or other sources like police reports, arrest records, etc.
If you think that smoking dope is so great, you should smoke with your daughter.  I am sure that will be a great bonding event for you.  

Although I am open to learning some, I do not know any parlor tricks.  It is hard to believe that you believe what you are saying when you call a therapists credentials and a medical text book, somantics.  Again, I do not doubt what you are saying, but to assume that because it happened to you, that it happened to everyone, is a little silly.  Dont't you think?

By the way, there is not a adolescent treatment program in the world that does not admit unwilling kids.  Does that mean everyone is abusive?  You give teenage drug users too much credit for making decisions that are in their best interests.  Adolescent drug users are never willing drug treatment particiapants.  Think about what you are saying for a minute.  That is not rape, it is actually putting the kids first to do what they need as opposed to what they want.  


[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2003-11-10 17:35 ]
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 10, 2003, 08:41:00 PM
If you think I misused my CAP, then call the CBAPF and report me.  Do you really think life is as black and white as you make it.  What did SAFE put in the website that is contradictory to what is in the medical textbook?  You will look hard, but there is nothing contradictory at all.  Just because the words are not identical does not mean that there is a nefarious plot at hand.  What I wrote is for clinical professionals, not parents.  Goto another treatment centers website and I would guess you will find similar things that SAFE wrote.

You are so intent on proving your point, that you are not open to anything to the contrary, whether it makes sense or not.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 10, 2003, 09:06:00 PM
I found a new quote for you guys!
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 10, 2003, 10:13:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-11-10 17:34:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

"Please go back and read what you wrote.  Rarely do you find a willing drug abuser/addict/whatever label you want to put in treatment.  

Well if the patient doesn't have a complaint, then how do you ever decide on a diagnosis? Is there a blood test? Or do you just rely on the "use = abuse" rule of thumb? And, by god, if they can't see that then you'll make some legal, family and school/work problems for them!

Quote
Having worked with adults and kids, those who had something hanging over their head always did better.

Sure, outwardly maybe. They're always easier to break and qicker to comply if you've got a big stick to beat them down with. But how would you know if they do better or worse of just about the same? You seem to be having trouble even finding any of your former clients? Do you just take it on faith?

Quote
 In your world, therapy is either loving or rape.  

No, I said either it's voluntary or it's rape. Would you deny that it's intimate? Personal? Deals with very private and often embarassing details of the patient's life and mind? Can you give me a better word to describe involuntary, coerced intimacy than rape?

Quote
I am sorry for what you went through.  It obviously has strongly affected who you are and how you feel about treatment of any kind.  Maybe in time as you mellow from your past experiences, you will see that there is alot of room between rape and loving therapy.

I'm not sorry for what I've gone through. At the very least, I knew better than to take Officer Friendly up on his offer to "help" my daughter, if only I'd file criminal charges against her. Doesn't matter if you call it love or not. It still boils down to forcing yourself on  helpless captives.

Quote

Again, at SAFE, we never invented symptoms.  
:rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:
And those signs?

Quote
They came from the kid, parents, or other sources like police reports, arrest records, etc.
None from the patient, though? What kind of doctor are you, anyway?! (Oh yeah, I forgot, you're not a doctor, are you?)

Quote

Although I am open to learning some, I do not know any parlor tricks.  It is hard to believe that you believe what you are saying when you call a therapists credentials and a medical text book, somantics.  

Uh... Sparkey? You getting carried away again? I was on pretraining for staff. My sister in law was on staff at The Seed, not long before former Seed staffers started Straight. Do you have any idea how many intakes I saw, either firsthand by having known the people before and after? What the hell are you talking about therapists credentials and medical texts? The Signs and a gullible parent are the only criteria for diagnosis. And remember, denial is the first sign of addiction! :wink:

Quote
Again, I do not doubt what you are saying, but to assume that because it happened to you, that it happened to everyone, is a little silly.  Dont't you think?

Or, coversely, it happened to me and to everyone I've ever met who went through these programs, including SAFE before, during and after the time you were there, it seems more than a little silly for you to propose that you must have been in some completely different program.

Quote

By the way, there is not a adolescent treatment program in the world that does not admit unwilling kids.  

That's rediculous.

Quote
Does that mean everyone is abusive?  You give teenage drug users too much credit for making decisions that are in their best interests.  Adolescent drug users are never willing drug treatment particiapants.  Think about what you are saying for a minute.  That is not rape, it is actually putting the kids first to do what they need as opposed to what they want.  




But... just awhile ago, you seemed to be saying that all SAFE clients could walk out at will. Now you're saying all of them were there against their will???

Believe me, I've thought about what I'm saying on some level every day for damned near 35 years. First, as the little sister watching one after another of my older brothers and sister and their friends either get sucked into the brainwashing factory or exit our lives for good. Then came my turn.

Now I'm the mommy. You're the one who lacks experience at guaging a teenager's ability to sort out their lives or how best to support them through the process. Seems you've never actually tried it.

Again, kid's doing well and we couldn't be happier to have her back in the loving arms of her family. Thanks again for asking.

Given the choice between dancing pigs and security, people will choose dancing pigs every time.
-- Ed Felton (quoted in www-security about Active-X)



_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
   10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 10, 2003, 10:17:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-11-10 17:41:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

"If you think I misused my CAP, then call the CBAPF and report me.  


Ok, give your name, then, so that people who knew you when and can actually testify can take you up on that.

There are not enough jails, not enough policemen, not enough courts to enforce a law not supported by the people.
-- HUBERT H. HUMPHREY, speech (1965)

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 10, 2003, 10:21:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-11-10 18:06:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

"I found a new quote for you guys!"


Excellent! Here are a couple of my favorites along the same lines.

"There lives more faith, in honest doubt, Believe me, than in half the creeds."
Alfred Lord Tennyson

"Were the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now. Thus in France the emetic was once forbidden as a medicine, and the potato as an article of food. Government is just as infallible,[sic] too, when it fixes systems in physics. Galileo was sent to the Inquisition for affirming that the earth was a sphere.... It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself."--Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia


Men had better be without education than be educated by their rulers.

--Thomas Hodgskin

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: jnloar on November 25, 2003, 04:34:00 AM
I have found this discussion so interesting.  These are simply my ideas and thoughts as I have no proof.
1)this man was an exec and were any kind of charges or suits to ever stick I truly believe it would be the execs who would be held more accountable as they allowed the abuse to happen.  They were privy to all of it and have a need to cover their butts.  I was a Jr.II paraprofession and now see "staff" as an extension of the brainwashing.  I would and have spoken about what I saw and how much of it I know today was not only abusive but illegal.
2)most people employ the coping mechanism of denial when reality hits hard.  I have experienced waves of shame and sadness reading kids accounts of staff and I was a phasor for 18 months!  I cannot imagine what happens when you read this and don't have the ability to atleast know that you played along in a system that victimized you first and you were simply following what you were told would basically be the only thing that would keep you from dying and would accept you since you were such a flawed druggie piece of trash.  Defense of ourselves is such a natural reaction and boy would I ever want to defend myself if I could not claim to be a paraprofessional who feel to the bs of the model.  I think he is an intelligent man who is trying to convince himself that there really was no abuse during his time there.
Now something I do know as fact:
1)when a client made a claim of abuse, at least in Texas, they were allowed to file and there was always follow-up.  A case-worker would come, meet with exec satff and a paraprofessional and we would explain that this was just an unhappy kid, we did not restrain, isolate unless absolutely neccesary (bullshit!) and that we would welcome them to sit in on a rap, Om ,et al. The client would come in once we had brainwashed the case worker who had no objectivity by this point.  They would listen to the client, explain that they would sit in on a rap and really thought maybe the client was just unhappy that they were not getting their way.  it was made certain they came in for maybe rules rap, exercise or if they did come in for a rap it was always made to be light by staff INSTRUCTED by exec staff to do this.  Then the case worker would meet with the client again after rap and basically say you are lying and once they left the poor kid was mincemeat back in group.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 25, 2003, 10:20:00 AM
The only thing I can say is that the program I worked for and the one you worked or and attended are very different programs.  In the 2 1/2 years I worked at SAFE, there was never a founded case of abuse.  Even when HRS/Child Protective Services was gunning for Loretta and the program, there was nothing.  Not only was there nothing, they had to lift their ban on allowing us to accept new clients.  These really are facts that can be documented by a third party (HRS) that is anti-SAFE.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on November 25, 2003, 11:32:00 AM
So ex, what's the well used looking foam pad for? Why does the office staff play "musical locked doors"? Surely an executive like you claim to be should know the answers to those questions. Why not share them with us here?  

                      :???:
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 25, 2003, 11:35:00 AM
I stopped working there nearly 9 years ago.  I am guessing that things might be different now than they were when I worked there.  I have no idea what you are talking about,
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 25, 2003, 11:42:00 AM
Thanks for giving your take on things. It really does help a LOT.

You're right, staff was just another set of phases. Remember that damned near all of us took an active part in the Program; some w/ more or less relish. But all but the active misbehavers took part, not just staff.

The Internet is now safe for free speech.
-- Christopher A. Hansen on the overturning of the Communications Decency Act

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 25, 2003, 12:16:00 PM
Because I simply do not know the answer to the question means nothing, other than I do not know the answer to the question.  It neither confirms, nor denies what is being alleged.  Antigen did make a comment that I can assure you is incorrect however.  During the time that I worked at SAFE, clients did not restrain clients.

However, I do know from group staff members that went through Straight in Orlando and St. Pete, that clients did restrain clients.  And yes, I agree that that was wrong and should have never happened.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 25, 2003, 12:33:00 PM
What would a phaser on the door do when a newcomer tried to walk out?

Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
-- John F. Kennedy (1917-63), U.S. Democratic politician, president. Speech, 13 March 1962, the White House.

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 25, 2003, 12:37:00 PM
Phasers at the door are told, instructed to do nothing but alert staff.  There is a rule that clients can not touch other clients, unless it is mutual (like a hug, handshake, etc.).
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 25, 2003, 01:00:00 PM
And this was effective? Damn! You must have had about a 3:1 staff:client ratio!

More accurately, we phasers were instructed to discard the first and most impotent rule and say that the client being beat down had thrown the first punch.

There are not enough jails, not enough policemen, not enough courts to enforce a law not supported by the people.
-- HUBERT H. HUMPHREY, speech (1965)

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 25, 2003, 01:54:00 PM
No 3:1 ratio, but we were just good!
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 25, 2003, 02:09:00 PM
So then you're telling me that all these kids who called HRS and tried to get out never tried just walking out? Or that the staff were kept pretty busy restraining them? I'm having a hard time envisioning a scenerio where all that you say could be true.

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard was not what I meant.



---Richard Nixon

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: jnloar on November 25, 2003, 03:10:00 PM
now I am laughing...of course only staff restrained...at least that is what the paperwork for the state said.  We easily justified using clients if there were multiple restaints as no-one could leave.  Our misbehaviors would plan joint runs and damn near every phasor and staff was active in a restraint.  Obviousily SAFE was such a welcoming, warm place that only a select few wanted out enough to run.  I took a stand for you ex, as I believe we each see our reality differently but your refusal to even acknowledge that maybe you are a little off is offensive.  If you worked there nine years ago I find your claims that much more unbelievable as that was just as they were transferring from the Straight name and I KNOW how those programs worked.  It would certainly be easier for those of us who suffered the brainwashing that is Straight/SAFE/PFC, etc...if you expressed some possibility that maybe you just are using some defense mechanisms we have all employed over the years.  It would be lovely if you had some staff members to back your perception as there are clients who so disagree with you about that time frame in SAFE.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 25, 2003, 06:05:00 PM
It goes without saying that if your assumption is that I am lying, than this forum has little to offer an even slightly intelligent person.  I am sure what you are saying is true regarding your experience when you were in Straight.  However, I defy you and anyone else to contradict any statements I have made on this web forum during the time period I worked there.  Admitting the truth is not denial.  

Just because you were wronged does not mean that everyone was wronged.  By way, contradicting me does not mean simply disagreeing with me.  I would love to chat with someone who will say that during the time period I worked there, kids were instructed to restrain other kids.  

You did mention something else worth noting.  SAFE was a kindler, gentler version of what you experienced.  There was confronation, but not spitting or abuse or deprivation.  There is nothing wrong with the model, when it is applied correctly.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on November 25, 2003, 06:17:00 PM
OK, Ex, how many front doors were at the location you worked? Were they kept locked at all times? Just seems odd that the new safe building has 4 glass doors up front, all locked and the ladies that work in the office have to go out one, walk down the sidewalk to either of the others and unlock them, then, come out that door, walk to another one with paper covering it, unlock it, and so on and so on and so on. Does this not strike you as being rather BIZZARE behavior for a business that respects kids' rights to move in and out of the building freely? Please do not say that the safe you worked at kept all the doors unlocked, I would hardly believe you. And that foam pad, well, it too could very easily be 9+ years old.
Since you have NO IDEA what I am talking about, how about describing what it was like when you were there. There may be some striking similarities.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: jnloar on November 25, 2003, 06:36:00 PM
Ex,
I will let go of the restraining disagreement since I was not there to witness what happened.  My doubts spring from the fact that SAFE is a Straight created program and I find it hard to believe it changed that quickly and even more hard to understand why they would have quit while you were there only to resume once you left.  I find a difference between a blatant lie and what people believe to be the truth.  It is scientically proven that humans will repress things that are painful to see and acknowledge.  I was saying I thought that could be a possibility but am happy to take your word that you do not fall into that category.  I do now have a problem with your idea that the model works when applied right???  do you really mean that?  The model is, essentially to strip a kid of every right, DIGNITY and sembelance of humanness, to surrender to the group mentality.  If a kid is non-compliant, they are ridiculed, forced to withstand extreme mental confrontations and at times, physical restraint and even abuse.  The model is taken from prison camps for god's sake.  It is a modern day form of mental and psychological torture and abuse.  Once the child has completely lost any sense of soul, dignity, respect and right and wrong, he is then welcomed by the group with open arms as they are the only ones who could ever possibly "redeem" him.  It is a sick, twisted way of making group, staff and yes, the execs god-like figures.  They progress on believing that they truly are worthless pieces of sh*t who are nothing without their 'gods' approval.  Then they are cut loose into the world and find out that everything they had been taught is screwed and then really flip out and probably start using the drugs they heard about in treatment.  Even though SAFE is a kinder version of Straight as far as spitting, unending standing, severe consequences, whatever, it is based on the same model and I find it repugnant that anyone can really defend its methodology.  My interpretation is not just from my years at Straight but from SAFE material that describes its treatment model and the testimony of the survivors stories I have read here.  It is worth reading some of the parents stories here who share the pain they feel for subjecting their kids to SAFE and the prices they have each paid due to the brainwashing they bought for a time. As I said in the start of this, I was not there so I cannot hold a true arguement about the restraint policies but I can about the treatment model as I got to experience it firsthand and can read the SAFE material to know it is the same one countless others in SAFE, Straight and many other programs have been subjected to.
Jennifer
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 25, 2003, 08:01:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-11-25 15:05:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

You did mention something else worth noting. SAFE was a kindler, gentler version of what you experienced. There was confronation, but not spitting or abuse or deprivation. There is nothing wrong with the model, when it is applied correctly.


Well, either I misspoke or you misunderstood. SAFE was an attempt at a kinder, gentler Straight. Just as Straight had been an attempt at a kinder, gentler Seed, which followed Synanon and possibly Daytop.

No deprivation? Of freedom to communicate? Freedom of association? Right to privacy? Basic human dignity? Did it ever occure to you that most of the confessions you coerced out of these kids were never any other client's business, and often enough no business of staff, even if they had actually been qualified to handle heroic intervention.

Allow the President to invade a neighboring nation whenever he shall deem it necessary to repel an invasion, and you allow him to do so whenever he may choose to say he deems it necessary for such purpose, and you allow him to make war at pleasure. Study to see if you can fix any limit to his power in this respect, after having given him so much as you propose. If today he should choose to say he thinks it necessary to invade Canada to prevent the British from invading us, how could you stop him? You may say to him,--"I see no probability of the British invading us"; but he will say to you, "Be silent: I see it, if you don't."
--Abraham Lincoln

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: jnloar on November 26, 2003, 04:30:00 AM
another thought on Ginger's post about "confessions" of a clients FOS/confessions...I, and a good 3/4 of the people I have reconnected with, are now free to say that our "FOS" lists were what were really FOS.  I know that on day 52 after endless confrontations about my 'druggie past' that I began piecing together bits of stories I heard in group so I would have a "past" to share about.  I know that is true for quite a few of people so I agree with Ginger about coerced confessions but also want to add that many of those confessions were absolute bullshit so the client could get the hell off first phase.   ***The First Stage of the Brainwashing Process***
they have started to give up their hope of ever being believed for their truth and begin to lie, exagerate, whatever it takes to just FREAKING SURVIVE!
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 26, 2003, 07:17:00 AM
I didn't realize it at the time. I suppose I was already well beyond the first phase by virtue of my exposure to The Seed starting from a very young age. I didn't really believe all the bullshit I heard coming out of these kids' mouths. But I did believe that they, the real druggies of lore, were tougher and more clever and devious than I was. I thought everybody else "got it" better than I did. But I've found I was wrong.

I never told anybody much of anything very important to me. I knew better. I confessed to true facts that weren't all that private and just built on those. I never let out anything that really bothered me. Some people did. Some people fell for it and entrusted to Group their real most shameful secrets. If I had understood that, I don't think I would ever have gone along to the degree I did.

Of all the enemies to public liberty, war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of every other.
--James Madison

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Carmel on November 26, 2003, 10:06:00 AM
Ginger -

Want to commend you on that last post.I often look back and wish i had had enough sense to see as you did, now that I think back, I recognize those who did.  My host ister was that way i think, and although I hold resentment to her about having to be the brunt of her manipulations sometimes....she still knew alot more than I did I think about how to survive in that place.  I just swallowed it hook line and sinker that the only way to get through was to be honest just like they said and I tore myself to bits when it wasnt good enough.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 26, 2003, 11:05:00 AM
Well thanks, Carmel. I don't think it was my good sense or anything. I think it was just that I was already a veteran at the game going in. I knew how to turn things around from years of doing it at home. I knew they fucked up, for example, insisting on my name being a druggietie. Instead of breaking me away from reality, that was a constant reminder that it was all just theatre. When they stood me up and told me never to mention The Seed, I knew that was an ace in the hole too.

Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded.
--Rep. Robert L. Henry, TX December 22, 1914 (quoting Lincoln)

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 26, 2003, 04:41:00 PM
"The model is, essentially to strip a kid of every right, DIGNITY and sembelance of humanness, to surrender to the group mentality. If a kid is non-compliant, they are ridiculed, forced to withstand extreme mental confrontations and at times, physical restraint and even abuse."

Again, in your case this is how the model was applied, rather than how it shoule be applied.  I had no idea what SAFE was about when I first started working there.  I had never even heard of Straight.  I started out in the mental health field because I am fascinated by the human condition and wanted to help people when given the oppotunity.  Everything at SAFE was designed to help the child learn what they needed to learn and move throught the phases, hopefully to never return.  Recognizing that relapse is part of the disease, a relapse prevention program called REPEAT was started, for those that did relapse.  They were not shunned or rejected.

I can not explain the drastic differences between your experience and mine.  I do know that some parents who pulled their child said a variety of negative things about SAFE.  It is not a program for everyone.  I would love to take a look at the paperwork you have from SAFE.  I may have actually written it.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 26, 2003, 06:34:00 PM
I think you're right, jnloar. Exstaff is a former exec; one of the clueless variety usually hired for their title and generally given the mushroom treatment.

Probably doesn't even know that we were instructed to tone down the language and, sometimes, even the motivating when they were in the room.
 

The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power.
O'Brien, the apparatchik

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on November 27, 2003, 01:57:00 PM
Your bitterness, resentment, and total lack of rational thinking has caused me to leave you and your kind to be forever trapped within yourselves.  I wish you luck in the future and hope that in time the sting of the past will subside and you will know peace. :wave:
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 27, 2003, 02:11:00 PM
Oh no! We're doomed! Please, please don't go and leave us to our missery!  
:rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

Fucking intentional moron!

Everybody needs beauty as well as bread, places to play in and pray in, where nature may heal and give strength to body and soul alike.
-- John Muir



_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
   10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on November 28, 2003, 03:55:00 PM
Art, if you look over in the Straight Survivors' forum, there's a post titled something like "Was Straight a government experiment?"

It's a long, like 13 part, investigative series. It relates somewhat to the Program because it mentions closed juvenile rehabs (but no detail) and because it identifies LEAA as a funding agency for Federal thought reform experiments. LEAA also granted Straight some hundreds of thousands per year.

There's another interesting detail somewhere in there. Some agency or other, I think it was either Russian or German, wanted to figure out how to get somebody who was not predisposed to violence or murder to assasinate a target on command. They found that if they could get the subject convinced that the target was a very bad guy, even if it were his best friend in reality, the subject could be conditioned to kill the target without hesitation or remorse.

I don't know about this guy. He might well be a fraud of some kind. But it's also very possible that he was one of those titled professionals who they'd hire to meet marketing or regulatory requirements. In Straight, Sarasota, that would be Dr. Hugh Burns. I talked to him just a couple of years ago. He truely and honestly did not see innocent victims getting unwarranted abuse. What he saw were dangerous, angry, deceitful drug addicts receiving heroic intervention to save their lives.

There are two parts to the deception. One is convincing the stoodge that the abuse that they're allowed to see is warranted. The other is keeping them in the dark about some of the worst of it. We had rules about how to act around parents and execs. The apologia was that they deserved special respect, so they shouldn't have to hear us say fuck or yell or see a marathon or anything.

So the stoodge goes out recruiting with the belief that anyone who says these things happen is lying cause he's there regularly and never sees it.

Everything that people say to you is personal. Whether it is constructive criticism or not will determine whether it cam from and asshole or not.

----Bill Warbis

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: pepper53190 on December 19, 2003, 03:51:00 PM
I have just finished reading some of these posts (some got redundant after a while)  Being as I respect both sides, I am not going to shun either opinion.  I think the coolest thing for me was to confront some of the people on my program face to face after getting out.  I made a point to search some of them out.  If I couldn't talk to them I would here that they were not doing so well so I reached the conclusion that they were sick not me.  And I was able to tell some of those people what I needed to so that I could heal from the experiances I had.  Because to this day I stand on the fact that it wasn't the system that screwed up it was the people and their disfunctions who screwed it up.  I choose to only think of the good that came out of my experiance.  Frankly I could care less how anyone else deals with it, I'm not them, I wasn't there when they were. We are all different and there isn't any medical jargon that can fix that either.  Peoples pain are their own, unforunately some feel the need to push it on others but whatever.  Well with that I suppose I'll leave it. :wave:
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on December 19, 2003, 04:14:00 PM
Hard as it may be for you to grasp, this is not about you. This is much more about Brother JEB!'s forced treatment policies in Florida and similar "Program for the masses" policies accross the country. If the whole problem were just these few individuals you happened to run into in Orlando, then why do we hear the same complaints from all over the country, spanning several decades?

BUT, none of that has anything to do with your personal emotional state. So it's none of your concern, right? Dear GOD, but I hope you don't vote!

Being a street cop, witnessing the tragedy firsthand, I've become
convinced that drug prohibition -- not drugs themselves -- are driving the HIV epidemic and the systemic crime that has swamped our criminal justice systems.
--Vancouver Police Const. Gil Puder

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on December 19, 2003, 04:58:00 PM
Ginger,

One of your own shared her opinion with you about her experience and instead of looking at it from her perspective you condemned her for not looking at it like you.   Do you know how many policitians sponsor programs of all sorts, not because they believe they are affective, but they do so because they think it will help them with voter approval.  Instead of being condascending towards Pepper's opinion, why not encourage free and diverse speech.  You sound like "the program" in the fact that a person has to either suport you blindly or be shunned.  



[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2003-12-19 14:00 ]
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on December 19, 2003, 05:13:00 PM
Pepper and I go way back. So it's understandable that you would miss the subtlety of the exchange here. It's yet another rendition of "Oh, you're just bitter and angry, get over it". She and I have been over and over this. How insulting it is for her to pretend (or maybe not) to think we're all just venting.

Yes, I know how politicians work. That's why I work so hard to make forced behavior mod a politically dangerous issue for them.

Hear me people: We now have to deal with another race - small and feeble when our fathers first met them, but now great and overbearing. Strangely enough they have a mind to till the soil and the love of possessions is a disease with them. These people have made many rules which the rich may break but the poor may not. They take their tithes from the poor and weak to support the rich and those who rule.
Chief Sitting Bull, speaking at the Powder River Conference, 1877

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: pepper53190 on December 19, 2003, 06:09:00 PM
Yes, Ginger and I go way back.  I have learned that she is very passionate about what she believes in and that she will NEVER change her views no matter what. And as crude and unrespectful of other peoples opinions as she is, you kinda learn to scroll past her posts with a smile.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Antigen on December 19, 2003, 06:24:00 PM
You call this respectful, Jen?

Quote
I choose to only think of the good that came out of my experiance. Frankly I could care less how anyone else deals with it, I'm not them, I wasn't there when they were. We are all different and there isn't any medical jargon that can fix that either.


In the real world outside of the program and rabidly evangelical AA devotees, that sort of comment is considered snide and condescending.

In any civilized society, it is every citizen's responsibility to obey just laws.  But at the same time, it is every citizen's responsibility to disobey unjust laws.
--Martin Luther King

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on December 22, 2003, 02:18:00 PM
"People will always talk about you, especially when they envy you and the life you live. Let them... you affected their lives, they didn't affect yours."

-Anon

[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2003-12-22 11:29 ]
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on December 22, 2003, 02:29:00 PM
Surely the day will come when color means nothing more than the skin tone, when religion is seen uniquely as a way to speak one's soul; when birth places have the weight of a throw of the dice and all men are born free, when understanding breeds love and brotherhood.

--- Josephine Baker
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: samurai on December 24, 2003, 01:57:00 PM
To talk about other people's affairs is a great mistake. To praise them, too, is unfitting. In any event, it is best to know your own ability well, to put forth effort in your endeavors, and to be discreet in speech.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 03, 2004, 11:38:00 AM
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you.
         --- Anon
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: SyN on January 12, 2004, 08:56:00 AM
Quote

 "Was Straight a government experiment?"

fromwhat you tell me and i have been reading about, straight does seem more and more like a government program.  one that could possibly work in a police state.  i beleive i have read of these types of "experaments" before.  didnt the gov once put philly under marshal law to see how a large mass of people would deal with such actions?  Though straight seems to be looking towards the conformity of whole towns for longer and more controlled periods of time. what 20 yrs??  its actually a great idea for them.  i mean a whole town of snitches constantly watching and reporting each other then placeing them in a brainwashing program till they are "better"
kinda like the simpsons where Ned Flanders is the ruler.
I dont know its a bunch a ramblin sorry.......
but not really (sorry).
SyN
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 12, 2004, 10:49:00 AM
SAFE received no funding from any local, state, or federal government.  I know for a fact at SAFE, we bent over backwards to avoid any government funding so as to avoid any government BS.

[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2004-01-12 07:53 ]
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: SyN on January 12, 2004, 01:04:00 PM
honestly do you think if it was a government project you would know?? cmon buddy watch some tv or read a paper.  all these programs have a bavarian stink to them.
SyN
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 12, 2004, 02:18:00 PM
I specifically knew that there was no Government money at SAFE because I sat in on the meetings that discussed money.  Dont be so paranoid! :wave:
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Scott D on January 12, 2004, 07:17:00 PM
I don't know you or how you personally were...nor am I a Straight supporter or Safe whatever but, I do know from my own experience from being in Straight that there were some staff members that I liked and respected. I wish I could contact a few of them today. We were all brainwashed including staff to some degree but, whatever....I have the right to like or dislike whomever I choose today.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: SyN on January 12, 2004, 07:18:00 PM
so we should trust an ex corruptor oops i mean staff of children; sure i wont be so paranoid especially with you. dont you know your stand point with survivors, bet most want you tar and feathered.
snoogenz.
SyN
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 13, 2004, 11:46:00 AM
I dont know if you have read the entire thread from the start but I would ask you to do so.  Afterwards, please post a comment.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: SyN on January 13, 2004, 08:47:00 PM
read it. your big on putting up quotes. but your still a staff to me. allways will be.  staff = shady ass monuka.  you agreed to participate in the de and reprograming of children, what is to be trusted about you? or the info you have.

but your off the subject, or is it me?? either way if these programs were/or are government funded you would not know.
i dont know and dont mean to be intrusive of this forum, i am mainly being an asshole over in the elan forum, but heh any safe or straight survivors got any feedback?

bavarian stink nuggets.
SyN
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: SyN on January 13, 2004, 08:51:00 PM
oh yeah and your brainwashed.
SyN
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: SyN on January 13, 2004, 08:54:00 PM
As your attorney, it is my duty to inform you that it is not important that you understand what I'm doing or why you're paying me so much money. What's important is that you continue to do so.
--Hunter S. Thompson's Samoan Attorney
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Therion on January 16, 2004, 06:22:00 AM
Hi I just found this thread...and I did skip over the last 20 pages to post this (im still back on 6)
 I watched the video...and some of those kids and especially that weaver dude looked fucking wired..
 Am I a doctor? no..But I spent 14 years injecting drugs..and at this point I can walk into a crowded restaurant and start picking out the drug users..

 That Weaver guy was probably using every ounce of his energy to keep his goddamn jaw shut...his pupils are flying saucers....

 And I have actually abused and seen others abuse aderall and ritalin...and you know what ...
I have taken aderol and stayed up Jabbering and cleaning for days...ITS FUCKING CRANK!!!!
 do you not get that?
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 16, 2004, 09:05:00 AM
Therion,

I am confused about what you are talking about?  Please explain.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on January 16, 2004, 01:31:00 PM
I was at SAFE from 9/92-3/94 and the exsafecounselor is correct in alot of what he's saying. I went in at 17 and was so mad at my parents. After being there a few months, I knew my parents weren't going to let me go home, so I started misbehaving, carving on my arms, trying everything I could to make my parents feel sorry for me, but they didn't. I got restrained quite a few times but it was my fault. I started fights with people so of course I'm going to get restrained. I was never restrained by anyone other than a staff member and they didn't use anything other than themselves to do the restraining. SAFE wasn't anything like Straight was. Yes, we motivated and were confronted and all of that but we were never abused in any way. Granted, I hated being there but there were alot of caring, loving people there. They all wanted to help us.  I don't know what it's like now, from what I hear, they drug everyone now.  They didn't do any of that when I was there. I commenced from there but didn't graduate.  I dropped my aftercare but it wasn't because the place was so terrible, it was because I chose to.  I don't have any hard feelings for SAFE at all.  I turned 18 in there and wanted to leave but my parents court ordered me to stay so I had no choice. I watched someone that just turned 18, walk out the door and nobody stopped him.  He never came back. They don't make you stay there. And like exsafecounselor stated, my actions kept me there for the full 18 months that I was there.  The program is a 6 month program, it could be done, kids just rebel against it. That's all I have to say..
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on January 16, 2004, 06:38:00 PM
He's talking about drugs, drugs of the Psychotropic variety. Stimulants of the Central nervous system. You can call them speed or you can call them Selective seratonin reuptake inhibitors if you like.  You can snort Ritalin and stay up all night scrubbing your floors or take methampetamine.  W*r was on something like 70mg/day of Adderall (which is a combination of 4 different amphetamines, mostly dexedrine) and its more than obvious the dude is speeding. Good thing SAFE has made him "sober" and he's no longer using harmful drugs like pot.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Therion on January 16, 2004, 06:41:00 PM
Im talking about SAFE loading kids on aderoll and brainwashing them..

Anyone with an inkling of reading comprehension can understand my post...

 Dont skate around it...you been doing that since you first posted...you play dumb...then someone backs it up...and you just skate on to next subject...

 Get honest!!!

 Basically you are being confronted via the internet..is whats happening..
 Just like you used to do...
 But we have facts...not bullshit doctrine...

Back to issue....Aderoll, imprisonment, brainwashing, destroying self worth....ring a bell?

 You are trash to me...you are enemy...you are a fucking monster and deserve to be nowhere near children..

That clear enough for ya...skippy?

and dont play dumb I was in STraight...and I watched the SAFE video...and I am brother and friend to all survivors of SEED...SYNANON..SAFE..STRAIGHT all same shit diff name...

[ This Message was edited by: Therion on 2004-01-16 15:42 ]
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on January 17, 2004, 07:03:00 PM
x counselor seems to have backed off yet again? cant handle confrontation when your not in controll???
mind fuker hope ya rot.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on January 18, 2004, 02:30:00 AM
I am new to this site and I have read everything posted from page 1 and I haven't seen any comments from parents who placed children in SAFE. If I overlooked it, I'm sorry but since I am one of those parents, I would like to contribute to this discussion.  I could probably write a book on my feelings, good and bad, about SAFE, but will try to be concise.  Our nightmare did not begin when we made the trip to Orlando-it began 2 to 3 years earlier.  Our daughter was failing in school, getting into fights, skipping school and had no regard for our rules or feelings.  Unfortunately, children don't come into this world with a set of instructions so we all have to "learn as we go" as it were.  As parents we did everything we knew to do to change this behavior but no matter what we tried, nothing changed.  if anything, things got worse.  
We restricted, took away priviledges, even tried that good old fashioned spanking and nothing worked.  The worst part is that we only knew a very small part of what was going on.  That was probably a blessing at the time because looking back I don't know if I could have handled the reality.  Upon finding evidence of possible marijuana use as well as sexual activity, we pursued various avenues for help.  We were told about SAFE and a former SAFE parent in our area talked with me for hours about this program.  Her son had actually graduated from STRAIGHT but she knew the tenets of the program.  After much soul searching, we made the decision to give this a try.  We made the trip to Orlando in the middle of the night with the assistance of a current parent.  The night after making this trek, even though we were sad, scared, and unsure of what was to come, we were able to get a decent, uninterrupted nights sleep for the first time in a long time.  We knew our daughter was at least safe (no pun intended)and secure.
There have been many comments about the structure;i.e. isolation from family, asking permission to do even the most basic tasks, etc.  How do I feel about this as a parent?  Well, let's see.  Before my daughter went into this program she managed to always find a way to enable herself to do what she wanted to do.  She could cry and "manipulate" (a familiar SAFE word?) to the point that we might give in to one of her wants which would usually lead to something totally different.  She knew the tricks and used them well.  Do you actually think I wanted to talk to this child on the phone so she could tell me how badly she was treated and how good she would be if we would just let her come home?  I DON'T THINK SO!!!  I didn't want to talk to her at this point.  I just wanted some peace and sanity.  However, if I had for one moment thought she was being abused or mistreated in any way I would have brought her home, problems and all.  We wanted a solution to the problems, we didn't want our child mistreated.  To this day I do not believe that during the period of time we were in the program, Sept. 1992 through March 1994, that there was any abuse by staff or anyone else.  I have read all the posts by exsafe counselor and everything he has said was what we experienced.  As parents of an out of town host home, our home was inspected and we were given instructions on how to handle situations with the clients. We were told in no uncertain terms that if a client tried to "cop out" that we could make reasonable attempts to prevent them from leaving but we could not use any type of restraint measures to keep them here.  Frankly, I would have wanted someone to stop my child from running if that had happened.  I would rather she be "tackled" and kept in a home than be out on the street where much worse could have happened.  We were also instructed in proper restraint methods should they be necessary in the case of a client who became violent or acted out in some way which could cause harm to themselves or someone else.  We spent a whole afternoon at "the building" learning techniques for taking someone to the floor in a way that was safe for the client as well as the parent.  Again, this technique was only to be used in extreme cases of possible dangerous situations.  Fortunately, we never had to do this.  As for the staff--of course there were some I liked better than others.  I think Loretta Parrish was not the best choice for program director. Again, I agree with ex about her.  She was arrogant and haughty and very intimidating.  I did not ever feel comfortable in her presence and was glad that I didn't have to encounter her very often.  The Clinical Director was wonderful with the kids.  She seemed to have nothing but their best interests in mind for recovery and successful completion of their program.  I am a skeptical person and I ask lots of questions.  Yes, there were some things that I didn't like nor did I agree with but as to abuse I never witnessed any client abused nor did I ever see any signs of physical abuse.  As to the deprivation of basic human needs such as food and not allowing them to go to the bathroom, etc. this is something else that we were told as host home parents to NEVER do.  HRS guidelines were quoted constantly.  I thought it would be OK to withhold dessert from a client who didn't want to cooperate or be somewhat non-compliant and I was told that if the others were allowed to have dessert that I could not withhold it from anyone.  Everyone had to be treated fairly. As to the "drugging" of clients-when we were there, medications of all types were carefully monitored.  When my daughter needed medication for any reason, I had to be sure that I brought just the right amount and gave it to the nurse for distribution at the proper time.  The only kids on drugs were the ones that took medication for medical reasons, none were "drugged up".
I could go on and on but my bottom line point is, we did what we thought was right at the time for our out of control child.  Right or wrong that's all a parent can do.  It's a crap shoot at best.  I would have never left her there if I thought for one minute that she or anyone else was being mistreated in the ways that others on this sight have mentioned.  We were one of the group that came in right after the change from STRAIGHT and we heard horror stories about STRAIGHT from parents who crossed over from one program to the other and even they said it was different.  We were told that SAFE was intended to be a toned down version of STRAIGHT.  Again, we all have our opinions but I commend the job that SAFE did during our time there.  I do know from speaking with other parents that were there after we left that things did start changing and I understand that now it has really changed.  I also don't think that the man who now owns this business should have a child in the program.  My family including the daughter who went through the program, gained a lot of good from SAFE.  I'm sorry that people had bad experiences with this or any other program.  I think those responsible for the atrocities that have taken place should be held accountable and suffer whatever consequences the law deems appropriate.  I do not condone mistreatment of any kind to anyone, child or adult.  I would support anyone or any organization that would stand up to fight this type of treatment, but I can only speak for my family's experience and I can tell you in all honesty that we made the right decision.  It was hard for us as well as for our daughter and she didn't do well after leaving the program but I also understand that relapse is part of recovery.  She is almost 30 now and has 2 children and is a responsible, decent, productive member of society.  Not perfect, but who is.  After reading these posts I believe I know who the counselor is and if I am right I want to go on record as saying that this particular individual was very caring, compassionate and went above and beyond in their duties as a counselor and more than that, a friend to the kids in the program.  I might go even further and say that this particular person would probably rank as #1 when it came to giving raps and explaining things to the parent group.  I hope I'm right about the identity but even if I'm not, I still have fond memories of many of the staff at SAFE during our time there.  Everyone's experiences are different and once again my heart goes out to those who had less than desirable experiences but for the most part I am pleased with our time spent in SAFE.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on January 18, 2004, 04:42:00 AM
I appreciate the post but it goes without saying that you didn't witness any abuse, that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Are you sure that there wasn't abuse just like you are sure there was no drugging of clients?  I have spoken to people first hands that were taking dangerous amounts of Adderall at SAFE. this is from ISAC:

Misuse of Medication
ISAC has reason to believe SAFE is improperly administering behavior
modification drugs in an attempt to further control clients.

I. A client was admitted to another treatment center within hours of leaving SAFE.
Upon admission to the second center, th e doctor who examined him stated:?I am
putting hi m under medi cal alert .? The client ?s blood pressure was dangerously
high as a result of the high dosage of Adderall administered at SAFE.

II. According to another doctor, the dosage of Adderall given to a seventeen-year-old
client was twice the recommended dosage for an adult.
III. ?They use so much Adderall at SAFE that we have to special order it for them.?-
Pharmacist for SAFE

IV. According to a staff memo and testimony under deposition, Paxil as well as other
medication, was given to at least one client without parental consent.

V. From a complaint filed on Dec 12, 2002 case number 6.01-V-1489-Orl-31JGG in
United States District Court Middle District Court of Florida Orlando Division:
?According to one set of pa rents they were then told to make an appointment with
Psychiatrist Terrance Otto to have client checked out. The parents made the
appointment but SAFE took him to see their Dr. Otto on its own initiative. SAFE
refused to allow the parents to attend since they were still prevented from any
contact with their child (By SAFE not, by a court order). Dr. Otto concluded that
the client suffered from attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and without his
parent ?s knowledge or consent, put him on a dangerously hi gh dose of Adderall,
even for an adult.?

Gee, maybe we're all wrong and just being really harsh and critical about the kind and wonderful people at SAFE.  These stories of Adderall and restraints and people being held against there will are merely the paranoid fantasies of a mislead group of people.  At SAFE, nobody was abused, the staff is warm and friendly and understanding, people are not held against their will, or intimidated or humiliated.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on January 18, 2004, 08:14:00 AM
parents who put there kids in these places make me sick.  are you that controlling? do you need to harm them that much more? and are you that ignorant as to believe that these places help?  how much do you think your kid respects you now??
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on January 18, 2004, 02:26:00 PM
I don't think that anyone out there is listening to what is being said here.  It seems you only want to hear things that agree with you.  You need to clean the wax out of your ears and LISTEN!!!  I can only speak from my own experience.  What happened before we got there and what happened after we left is something I cannot address.  I WASN'T THERE.  However, during our time at SAFE there was no abuse nor drugging of clients.  I have seen kids walk or run out the door and be persued by staff to bring them back.  There was never any "tackling" or any type of physical abuse to coerce the client back into the building.  I have witnessed this on several occasions and not once was there excessive force of any type used.  When my daughter was on first phase she had a doctor's appointment and I TOOK HER!!!  Surprise!  According to everything that has been said here that was unheard of--guess we were just "special".  An oldcomer went with us but I took them, I paid the doctor and went in with her while she was being seen.  There was also a drug test done while she was there and it was negative.  No adderal (sic) or anything else.  If she had been drugged for a period of time prior to going to the doctor it would have shown up.  If I recall, the appointment was made on a Friday and she was seen on Monday.  There would have been traces of something had this been the case.  Another time when she was misbehaving we were allowed to see her and her counselor for a conference - again we are talking about FIRST PHASE.  This was common practice at the time we were there.  This is not my definition of isolation from the family.  
I have never nor will I ever condone any abuse of any type to anyone.  If I suspected this was happening believe me, I would have spoken up, LOUDLY and called media, police and anyone else I thought could help.  But, this was never my observation or experience.  If this is a forum to gather information and take the gathered information and use it for good, then this isn't what is happening.  This is a very one sided forum.  In order to be fair, all sides must be heard in a calm, non-judgemental way, with no name calling and sarcastic remarks.  The time frame that we were at SAFE none of these adverse things happened.  Maybe we were lucky and got there at the right time, I don't know.  I do know that we were told that SAFE was a toned down version of STRAIGHT.  In fact, they were adament that parents who were left overs from STRAIGHT not make comparisons or references to the previous program.  We were told on numerous occasions that this was a "new" program with new guidelines.  I'm sorry if this isn't what you want to hear but it is the truth.  From September 1992 through September 1994 (includes 6 months aftercare) it was a (to quote another American) "kinder, gentler program."  That's not to say that it wasn't tough, but it was not abusive.  I will never believe that.  Again, be objective and understand that I am only referring to the period of time when my family was there.  
I support any group or organization that works to stop abuse of any type in any program of any type.  I don't doubt for a minute that inappropriate things have happened in any and all of these type programs at some time or another.  Some more than others. But during our time at SAFE it simply didn't happen.  PERIOD.  I applaud your efforts to intervene and stop abuse of any type but in order to be fair, you must accept the statements of those who had good experiences in this or other programs.  Oh and by the way, my "kid" does respect me.  
God bless all of you in your efforts but please be objective in what you do.  All experiences were not negative.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on January 18, 2004, 08:16:00 PM
of course you didnt see anything... jesus you need to listen, these programs are horible unless your presence is directly in front of them.  look how many survivors claim this.   ::argue::
whatever your not a survivor you wont know.  your right but i still have no respect for parents who subjegate their children to mental rehabilatation when there is nothing wromg with them. even if you dont agree with their behavior why would you send them to get mind fukd by strangers???
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 19, 2004, 09:25:00 AM
Its not that I have back off or am avoiding any comments, I simply went home for the weekend and never turned my computer on.  It was kind of nice.  It seems that my detractors and I finally have something in common.  IT IS WRONG TO OVERMEDICATE ANYONE!  Again, I can and will only talk about the time period that I worked at SAFE.  During this time period, we did just the opposite.  If a kid came into SAFE on any type of psychotropic drug, we did whatever we could to take them off of it.  The belief at SAFE during the time was that a child could be taught how to live life without the use of any psychotropic durgs.  In my over 2 year stint at SAFE I would say that maybe 5 kids acutally had to remain on drugs.  They were the more chronic cases.  

If what everyone is saying is true about Adderol and such, then I agree totally that it needs to stop.  Isnt it nice to know that I am not completely pro-SAFE that I willing to listen to reason?
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 19, 2004, 09:31:00 AM
For those of you who do not believe me, please read what a SAFE parent had to say on page 20.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on January 19, 2004, 10:38:00 AM
I am the daughter of that parent. I posted on page 20 about my experience of being in SAFE. Things then were not the way the are now or were before SAFE.  I hated being "locked up" but that was because I was a teenager wanting to do my thing.  Once I accepted the fact that I wasn't going anywhere, I realized things weren't that bad.  If you read my first post, then you will see a little of what my "program" was like. I wasn't abused in any way, shape, or form. I got restrained because I lashed out at people. Nobody ever sat on me and no other clients ever restrained me. Take an "open mind" to other peoples opinions. I'm sorry that other people were abused and that clients that are there are being drugged, but I wasn't and neither was anyone else on my program. You are so onesided and for you to call people names or in so many words call people stupid because they don't agree with you is crazy. My parents did what they felt they had to do at the time. I have a great relationship with my parents now. SAFE helped in that area. I communicate well with my parents and everyone else I associate with. If SAFE was the way it was when I was there, now, and I had a "druggie" for a kid, I'd put him/her in there in a heartbeat.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on January 20, 2004, 10:51:00 AM
Quote
On 2003-11-27 10:57:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

"Your bitterness, resentment, and total lack of rational thinking has caused me to leave you and your kind to be forever trapped within yourselves.  I wish you luck in the future and hope that in time the sting of the past will subside and you will know peace. :wave: "



What happened to leaving us and our kind????????? :roll:
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 20, 2004, 12:50:00 PM
Some different characters entered the discussion that seem less burdened by the past, so I am giving it another try.  Thanks for the question Anon.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on January 20, 2004, 02:25:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-12-19 13:58:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

You sound like "the program" in the fact that a person has to either suport you blindly or be shunned.  





[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2003-12-19 14:00 ]"


So then by this statement, you admit that "shunning" those who do not blindly follow the program was and is practiced??  Sounds cultish to me.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Cayo Hueso on January 20, 2004, 02:59:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-11-10 17:34:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

  Having worked with adults and kids, those who had something hanging over their head always did better.

Are you fucking serious????  That's not therapy, that's blackmail.  Helping an addict does not involve force...they might change for a while under threat, but it would never last.

Quote
Again, at SAFE, we never invented symptoms.  They came from the kid, parents, or other sources like police reports, arrest records, etc.

Problem with that is that the majority of those "symptoms" could also very well be normal teenage behavior.  Moodiness, bursts of anger, change of friends, drop in grades.......ALL of those are on EVERY list for EVERY treatment center I've ever seen and ALL of those "symptoms" ARE part of being a teenager.

Quote
<
If you think that smoking dope is so great, you should smoke with your daughter.  I am sure that will be a great bonding event for you.  




Funny you should mention that.  A real good friend of mine allowed her daughter to smoke when she was around 17.  They had always had open discussions about drugs.  The kid smoked for a few months and then moved onto a great nursing career.  The thing that impressed me the most about this was something the daughter said to me.  She said that because her mom had been honest with her about pot (the mom told her that the horror stories about it being the "gateway" drug were overblown) she believed her mom when she said that the rest of the drugs, including alcohol, were highly dangerous.  The mom explained all the risks involved with smoking pot, but without all the rhetoric that "the programs" spit out.  


Ever since this whole "drug war" thing started it's been a "cause du jour" for most people.  Scare tactics and rhetoric.  The ones that seem to be benefiting from all this "help" are the polititians, rehab centers and drug companies.

There's so much comedy on television.  Does that cause comedy in the streets?
-- Dick Cavett

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 20, 2004, 03:51:00 PM
Your comment is exactly why I left before.  You are more than happy to put words in my mouth, distort my statements, and misconstrue anything to serve your purpose.  We need to make a clear distinction in what we are talking about.  First, posting things on this forum is one thing.  Second, dealing with program parents and kids is another.  Regarding this forum, if all people are going to do is twist and manipulate what I write to fit their purpose, call me a child abuser, and be completely close minded then I am not interested.  Your foum will be pretty dull since only people like you will be posting.  I understand people's anger and lack of trust regarding people that worked at SAFE. Being skeptical is fine.  Being completely close minded is not.  I have learned some things from people on this forum that completely disagree me.  

Regarding dealing with people in the program at SAFE.  Parents and kids were not shunned for disagreeing.  They were educated, informed, and even confronted.  Exactly how they were dealt with depended upon the situation.  I would sometimes pull a kid out group and talk to them.  Sometimes, I would give them a pamphlet or book to read.  Sometimes I would have them congfronted in group.  It all depends.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 20, 2004, 03:57:00 PM
Whether you like it or not or agree with it or not, people with some kind of outside force (legal, parental, family, etc.) that makes them goto and stay in treatment or more likey to succeed in treatment than people who do not.  A better understanding of the nature of an addict, would be helpful for you.  And yes, I am fucking serious.

Hopefully for the final time I will explain what I mean by symptoms.  In the DSM IV, there are symptoms that a person needs to have in order to be diagnosed with a substance abuse disorder.  They are not vague, nor are they normal for a teenager to experience.  By the way, a sudden drop in grades indicates that something is going wrong with a teenager.  It could be many things, but it is definitely a problem.

Each parent has their own choice on how they raise their child.  Your friend made her choice and according you it worked out great.  Thats nice.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Cayo Hueso on January 20, 2004, 04:00:00 PM
Please tell me where I put words in your mouth.  I quoted directly from YOUR POSTS, with the exception of the QUESTION I asked about the shunning.  I asked you to CLARIFY what you said...

Any response to the other things I wrote??

and....where the fuck did I call you a child abuser.  Ya know, until this last post you wrote I WAS willing to listen to you...I even leave room for the possibility that SAFE was not as abusive as Straight or SAFE before you got there, but then you go and post this shit?!?!?!

Like I said, PLEASE tell me where I put words in your mouth or called you a child abuser.

Still, if you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.
--Winston Churchill

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 20, 2004, 04:01:00 PM
I dont expect for people to have blind faith in anything I say.  I am more than happy to prove whatever I am able to prove.  Some things can not be proven.  For example, I can not prove that SAFE is not secretly receiving money from the government.  Despite the fact that I was in meetings that discussed money in detail.  Yet again, the person who stated this can not prove that it exists either.  I have been able to prove somethings however.  For example, one person questioned the credential that I and others had while I worked at SAFE.  I was easily able to prove that.  So all I have to say is challenge me and I will do my best.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 20, 2004, 04:06:00 PM
You did not call me a child abuser.  You are right. However, if you look at the post from the beginning, there are quite a few adjectives that others have used to describe me.  I was speaking generally about what people have called me, not you.   Regarding putting words in my mouth, shunning was what I was specifically referring to.  In addition, people take what I write and then instead of asking a question to clarify, then make their own conclusions that ALWAYS support their point of view.  It is nice to know that you are open minded.  I look forward to your questions and comments.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Cayo Hueso on January 20, 2004, 04:09:00 PM
How many kids that were brought into SAFE for an eval. were turned away.......my guess is none to maybe .05%....I could be wrong, but doubt it.  A cookie cutter approach to drug use/abuse, behavioral problems, eating disorders etc. is insane.....no ONE solution works for everyone but according to the program they can fix whatever ails your kid.

In questions of power, then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution."

--Thomas Jefferson 1798

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 20, 2004, 04:14:00 PM
Good point.  We were licensed and marketed ourselves as a drug rehab center.  Only kids with drug abuse problems were admitted.  In the 2 1/2 years I worked there, maybe 3 kids were not admitted after the evaluation period.  I think the point you are trying to make is that we took every kid for any reason.  Is that correct?  That is not the case.  One kid of those three, I vividly recall beacause he was mentally impaired well beyond the capabilites of our facility.  The rest were discharged becuase a DSM IV diagnosis could not be established.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 20, 2004, 04:15:00 PM
Have you read through all the posts.  I think you would find it interesting reading.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Cayo Hueso on January 20, 2004, 04:20:00 PM
That's partially the point I was trying to make.  The other part is that it seems that no matter what the amount of use of drugs, the program puts them all in...I'm not speaking of anorexia or simple behavior problems.  Kids are going to try drugs, some will abuse them for the rest of their lives, some will grow out of it, some will try them once or twice and leave them alone.  If you get a jumpy or overly frightened parent (which seems to be one of the preferred methods of signing clients up, scare the shit out of the parents) it's very easy for kids that truly are experimenting to get caught up in the frenzy this stupid fucking drug war has created.

Marijuana clearly has medicinal value.
 Thousands of seriously ill Americans have
 been able to determine that for themselves,
 albeit illegally. Like my own family, these
 individuals did not wish to break the law but
 they had no choice.
 

--Lyn Nofziger, former deputy chairman of the Republican National Committee

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 20, 2004, 04:23:00 PM
You are absolutely right.  The kids that were discharged during the eval period, had just experimented and had not really abused drugs.  In an earlier post, I actually cut and paste from the DSM the signs and symptoms that someone has to have to get diagnosed.  Personally, I think that a place like SAFE best serves those kids who have a pretty extensive drug history and who have been to treatment and failed someplace else.  That is just my personal opinion, however.

_________________
There is not a truth existing which I fear or would wish unknown to the whole world.

--- Thomas Jefferson

[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2004-01-20 13:23 ]
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Cayo Hueso on January 20, 2004, 04:26:00 PM
yeah, I've read through the posts.  

One more point, if SAFE was as you say it was when you were there (not saying I believe or disbelieve that but for the benefit of this discussion let's say it's true) great, but there was obviously a problem before and obviously a problem after you were there.  Seems that it would be more helpful to address that than to just keep saying over and over that it wasn't abusive when you were there.  If it truly wasn't, then great, nothing needs to be done about the time period when you were there, but things were and ARE different now.  I personally witnessed a kids who tried to leave being thrown head first into a car by parents and phasers.  This was 2 years ago.

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
--Albert Einstein

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 20, 2004, 04:26:00 PM
Here is something else that might surprise you.  I completely agree in making marijuana legal for MEDICINAL PURPOSES ONLY.  For God's sake, if someone is sick and can benefit from anything, who care what it is as long as they get better.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Cayo Hueso on January 20, 2004, 04:30:00 PM
Quote

On 2004-01-20 13:23:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

"You are absolutely right.  The kids that were discharged during the eval period, had just experimented and had not really abused drugs.  In an earlier post, I actually cut and paste from the DSM the signs and symptoms that someone has to have to get diagnosed.  Personally, I think that a place like SAFE best serves those kids who have a pretty extensive drug history and who have been to treatment and failed someplace else.  That is just my personal opinion, however.



So do you believe that kids who didn't belong there ended up there anyway?  Just clarifying.

There are not enough jails, not enough policemen, not enough courts to enforce a law not supported by the people.
-- HUBERT H. HUMPHREY, speech (1965)

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 20, 2004, 04:30:00 PM
I too saw the WAMI video. (I think that is what you are referring to)  I too disagree with what happened.  I dont know if SAFE made a policy change in that regard or it was an over-zealous staff member who crossed the line.  What I am hearing about kids being overmedicated is also disturbing.  Like I said before, I dont think anyone has much to worry about.  I dont see SAFE being open at the end of this year.  They are having serious financial troubles.  

PS:  The main reason things are not great there anymore, is because I am not there.  HAHA
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 20, 2004, 04:32:00 PM
So do you believe that kids who didn't belong there ended up there anyway? Just clarifying.

All the kids that were admitted benefited from treatment.  The kids that did better however, were those kids in the later stages of drug abuse.  They suffered more consequences and were better able to make a connection between their drug use and their life being in the toilet.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Cayo Hueso on January 20, 2004, 04:34:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-01-20 13:30:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

"I too saw the WAMI video. (I think that is what you are referring to)  



No, that wasn't where I got the idea that that happened....it's been going on ever since adolescent treatment programs have been around.  Money drives the train, the more clients you sign up, the more money you make.

That's not even talking about how many narcissistic personalities are drawn to those kind of "treatment modalities".  They get to be God.

What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Cayo Hueso on January 20, 2004, 04:35:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-01-20 13:32:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

"So do you believe that kids who didn't belong there ended up there anyway? Just clarifying.



All the kids that were admitted benefited from treatment.  The kids that did better however, were those kids in the later stages of drug abuse.  They suffered more consequences and were better able to make a connection between their drug use and their life being in the toilet.


"


That's not an answer to my question, that's a tap dance.

The right of self-defense is the first law of nature . . and when the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction.

--St. George Tucker, in his edition of Blackstone's Commentaries

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 20, 2004, 04:43:00 PM
Here is a clearer answer.  Everyone that was their needed to be there.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 20, 2004, 04:45:00 PM
A parent posted earlier that no children were restrained to keep them from leaving.  She was there when I was there.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Cayo Hueso on January 20, 2004, 04:46:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-01-20 13:43:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

"Here is a clearer answer.  Everyone that was their needed to be there.
"


Thanks, that's a clear answer and it tells me quite a bit.

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
-- Robert Heinlein

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 20, 2004, 04:47:00 PM
I sense your sarcasm.  I tried to provide a little more explanation, but you accused me of "tapdancing"
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Cayo Hueso on January 20, 2004, 04:47:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-01-20 13:45:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

"A parent posted earlier that no children were restrained to keep them from leaving.  She was there when I was there.  
"


Again, if that's true - great...THEN NOTHING NEEDS TO BE DONE ABOUT THE TIME THAT YOU WERE THERE...but things are not that way now and they were not that way before you got there.

A good head and good heart are always a formidable combination. But when you add to that a literate tongue or pen, then you have something very special

--Nelson Mandela

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Cayo Hueso on January 20, 2004, 04:49:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-01-20 13:47:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

"I sense your sarcasm.  I tried to provide a little more explanation, but you accused me of "tapdancing"
"


Your first response to my question WAS a tap dance...the second was a direct answer and I do appreciate it.  Yes, there was a little sarcasm there, but I do appreciate and enjoy a discussion/debate/disagreement that does not get personal.  If I got personal, it was not intended.

You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war.
--Albert Einstein

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 20, 2004, 04:51:00 PM
I like people like you.  I acutally like sarcastic humor, so there was definitely no harm taken.  Were you in Straight in St. Pete?  Some of the group staff that I worked with were in St. Pete.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Cayo Hueso on January 20, 2004, 04:55:00 PM
yep, two long years.  Easily the worst experience of my life.  Just to give you a frame of reference...my ex-husband (also in Straight) went to prison a few weeks ago on a parole violation (we've been divorced for 15 years).  He was in for 3 years somewhere around 90 - 93.  Before he was just sent back I asked him if he had a choice to go back to prison or back to Straight he said, without even missing a beat.....prison by far.  Sad sad commentary.

Who were the staff you're speaking of?

I have found that the best way to give advice to your children is to find out what they want and then advise them to do it

--Harry S. Truman

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Cayo Hueso on January 20, 2004, 04:56:00 PM
he was in prison around 90-93...Straight from 82-84

The world is so exquisite, with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's no good evidence. Far better, it seems to me, to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.
--Carl Sagan

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 20, 2004, 05:01:00 PM
"Sad, Sad Commentary"  

What do you think is sad?  That he would choose jail over Straight because he is so sick or that he chose jail over Straight because Straight is so bad?
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Cayo Hueso on January 20, 2004, 05:06:00 PM
One more point then I gotta run for a while...

Most of the people on this forum were severely abused in one form or another in Straight/SAFE/Seed/Pathway etc.  If they tend to get aggressive at times, please try and understand what they've been through and how hard it is for us to believe that things were so drastically different to what we experienced before and after you were there.  Remember where SAFE came from...closed down one day as Straight, opened next day as SAFE with all the same staff.  The effect those programs have had on us is extreme and lasting.  If some of us haven't been able to completely leave that behind, I think it's understandable.  The best advice I can give you regarding what you call closed minded people is to simply not respond to them and do respond to the people you feel you can have a discussion with.  But, please don't condemn them for what they say here....we weren't allowed to say what we felt about those places for so long that it gets pent up and comes out as venom.

When Plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in a society, they create for themselves in the course of time, a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.
--Fredric Bastiat

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 20, 2004, 05:09:00 PM
Good point!  :nworthy: I will
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Cayo Hueso on January 20, 2004, 05:12:00 PM
Because Straight was so bad.  Actually, he's been in AA and sober for 10 years....a doc got him hooked on pain pills after a back injury (even though his first statement to the doc was "I'm an addict") and he made a stupid decision.  After he was already hooked the doc cut him off and he took a few pills he shouldn't have...now he's facing 12 years for this.   While he was out on bail this last time he dealt with his relapse (if that's what you want to call it) the way that AA taught him, so it's not like he's just trying to avoid dealing with his drug problem....STRAIGHT REALLY WAS THAT BAD!!!!!

Were the power of Congress to be established in the latitude contended for, it would subvert the very foundation, and transmute the very nature of the limited Government established by the people of America.
James Madison

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on January 20, 2004, 05:24:00 PM
he should have just gone to methadone clinic.
its effective for pain....24 hour opiate
and they dont cut you off...beats getting busted buying pills on the street
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on January 20, 2004, 06:20:00 PM
nah, been there, done that.....you have no life on that.....going to the clinic every morning and the rest of the bullshit.  I was on methadone for 8 years for pain, yes it relieves the pain but the long term effects on the body are not worth it.  I'm paying for it now with my liver and I took it as prescribed.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: glider on January 21, 2004, 04:36:00 AM
Dear X-Safe-guy,
I for one, am extremely glad you found yourself here, that you are posting, and even putting up with insults and attacks.  I have read your posts and I personally feel I have much to gain from reading them and engaging in a meaningful dialogue. Make no mistake, I perceive you as an enemy and a nemesis and that is why I find this so intriguing and the last thing I would want to do is scare you away or make you feel unwelcome here.
In my personal experience, I harbor my strongest feelings about Straight towards the executive staff, specifically, Amy Cameron, Lori Means, and Ms. Reily who were executive staff while I was a captive at Straight Dallas in 1989. The things I saw in the 15 months I was at Straight (I graduated) would offend and disgust and reasonable human being. I saw people beaten and bloodied. I saw a girl get her leg broken. I?ve seen people semi-starved and kept awake and continuously yelled at for hours or held restrained for up to 8 hours. I myself, was strip searched by about 12 very mean and unfriendly looking guys, I was confronted once with people holding down my hands so I could not wipe the spit off of my face. My best friend in Straight put a shotgun to his head. I have a loving family and loving friends. I grew up in a privileged family and received an education and was able to make a good life for myself. I have much to be grateful for.  Having said that, I will tell you that in Straight, I have never seen so much hate, so much fear and so much pain, both for myself and others. I have known people that were happy pot smokers before straight and come out miserable and angry, whether they remained sober or not they were still miserable and angry. I lost my innocence and my naivety in Straight. I was exposed to cruelty and violence.  I was once a true believer and said that Straight saved my life, Straight denied me all my former love and support from my family and friends and would only reward thinking that matched theirs.  I had lost one of the most important things you could ever lose, I lost myself. I didn?t know who I was anymore, I couldn?t make a decision and was filled with self doubt as a graduate. Straight questioned my every thought and deed and I in turn question every thought and deed I had. Joy, love, and acceptance are born of freedom, self-acceptance, and experimentation. The sober and lifestyle that Straight taught me was a life of judgment, of anger and of hatred.
   I?ll take your word for it Mr. X-Safe.  I?ll give you the benefit of the doubt that people are not being beaten or unnecessarily restrained at SAFE and for that I?m very grateful and happy.  It seems to me that you have good intentions and honestly want to do the right thing and I respect that. However, I think you are terribly misguided.
I?ve heard this over and over again that now we don?t beat people and now we don?t stare people and so that makes everything OK. As Survivors of this treatment modality, we make the mistake of focusing on the blatant abuse, the abuse that everybody can understand as abuse like keeping somebody awake for 72 hours. Things like that didn?t happen to most of us, it never happened to me so what in the world are we complaining about?  It?s the entire treatment modality, the entire philosophy.  Take away the physical abuse but the psychological abuse is still there. SAFE breaks our most sacred and fundamental beliefs about freedom and self-determination. If I went to an AA meeting tomorrow and said ?Hey everybody, I love to drink night and day and have no desire to quit drinking? most people would think, go right ahead and once you change your mind, you know where to come. It?s in peoples best interest not to smoke cigarettes, it kills people. Alcohol and drugs can be the same way and yes its sad, its unhealthy and perhaps even immoral but nevertheless, we still accept that people make these decisions for themselves. I fundamentally believe that coerced treatment is wrong, at least forced treatment without any recourse available to that person. As a community and through a court of law, we decide if we can lock someone away or put them in treatment but at least that person can defend themselves. The mentally ill have this right, the worst criminals have this right and the criminally insane even have this right but children don?t?  How can we justify that?
Right now, Narconon http://www.narconon.org/ (http://www.narconon.org/) is one the largest Drug Rehab chains in the states and is based on Scientology.  I bet the Baptist church has gotten people sober and peoples lives have been improved as a result.  I don?t even need to mention AA. I understand that there are people who are glad they went to SAFE and kids and parents alike are glad they did it but I absolutely guarantee you, in fact I utterly promise you that for every person that is happy they went to SAFE, there are people who talk about it in terms of the most horrific thing that has ever happened to them. We should never force anybody to get sober via Scientology, or SAFE or to become born again because ?its in their best interest? even if indeed, it actually is in their best interest. That?s simply not for you or anyone else to decide.
   I am so puzzled and confused when I think about the executive staff at Dallas Straight.  How in the world these seemingly normal people, educated people, adults, could stand by and encourage what happened there. I do have a clue though and I consider it a philosophy that both cults and terrorists alike live by and that is that the ends justify the means. Whatever it takes to get someone sober is OK(SAFE, Straight, The Seed,).  Whatever it takes to save the Earth is OK (Earth Liberation Front), whatever it takes to stop abortion is OK (bomb clinics, kill doctors), whatever it takes to liberate Palestine is OK, you get the idea. It?s not worth debating whether the cause is admirable or not, its merely a question of the methods people are willing to use.
   SAFE has a sordid and horrific history. It is born of Straight, The Seed, and the Synanon Church in a direct lineage. It?s a story of a decades long struggle between child welfare services, courts, community activists, counselors, doctors and other concerned citizens, organizations like ACLU and Amnesty International, etc to close these places down and these places closing down only to reopen again by the true believers of this treatment modality.  I understand SAFE is less abuse that Straight but that?s not saying much. Children in these places are coerced, humiliated, and intimidated and I will struggle as long as I live to see places such as SAFE closed down. I care for and am concerned with the well being of these kids who are held against their will, who are scared, and who have committed no crimes.  
~John
Straight Survivor
Dallas and LA Straights, ?88-?90
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 21, 2004, 11:16:00 AM
John, I must say that what you said was awesome.  I appreciate your candor and well-thoughtout posting.  I want to focus on one thing you wrote because others have mentioned it and I dont think I have ever addressed it.

You said, "If I went to an AA meeting tomorrow and said ?Hey everybody, I love to drink night and day and have no desire to quit drinking? most people would think, go right ahead and once you change your mind, you know where to come."

AA/NA are self-help organizations.  They are designed for those people that WANT help and are ABLE to use the organization to help themselves.  Treatment is not necessarily for people who want help.  They are for people who need help, whether they want it or not.  We have a choice.  We can let people (kids and adults) do whatever they want to themselves and do nothing to try and help them or do what is reasonable to try and help them.  The choice is yours.  Let us also not forget that people with drug problems do not live in a bubble.  How does the family suffer?  How does society suffer?  How do employers suffer?  People being in treatment that they need helps them and everyone around them.  

As I am sure you are aware of, kids even the ones without drug or alcohol problems, are not known for making the best decisions.  All of us can relate to making poor decisions as kids due to a lack of knowledge, being emotionally immature, or a lack of experience.  When you add drugs and alcohol to this combination of issues, can we really expect kids to decide whether they need treatment or not?  I would think not.  

As I have said before, the parents have ultimate say in what happens to their kids.  However, when a parent wants to have a child involuntarily committed to treatment, the child is GIVEN legal representation.  I have been cross-examined by more than one attorney that represented SAFE clients during these proceedings.  During my 2 1/2 years at SAFE, every child that was petitioned to be comitted, was committed.  Even with legal representation and an ability to get up in open court and speak their mind, they were all committed.  

I dont believe in doing whatever it takes and use that as a justification for unethical, illegal behavior.  I think that Christian organizations that bomb abortion clinics must be reading a differnt Bible than I do.  How they justify death and destruction in the name of God baffles me.  Counselors that abuse kids and justify it by saying it will help them in the long wrong are just full-of-shit control freaks, who have not clinical skills.

Many people are under the belief that freedom is an unconditional right in America.  To a certain degree it is-it says so in the Constitution.  But if a person breaks the law, endangers their life or others, their freedoms can be taken away from them so that a greater good is served.  Protecting a child from himself is one such greater good.  

I too give you the benefit of the doubt regarding the horrific things that happened to you.  I mentioned in earlier posts that I worked with group staff that were in Straight and they told me the same things that you are saying.  I look forward to your reply.  Am I really your enemy?

[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2004-01-21 08:32 ]
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Cayo Hueso on January 21, 2004, 06:18:00 PM
http://thestraights.com/people/medical- ... miller.htm (http://thestraights.com/people/medical-doctors/miller.htm)

Ex-SAFE Counselor:

Interesting reading.  The part regarding the symptoms is what I thought pertained to this discussion.  Keep in mind that SAFE came DIRECTLY from Straight.

Allow the President to invade a neighboring nation whenever he shall deem it necessary to repel an invasion, and you allow him to do so whenever he may choose to say he deems it necessary for such purpose, and you allow him to make war at pleasure. Study to see if you can fix any limit to his power in this respect, after having given him so much as you propose. If today he should choose to say he thinks it necessary to invade Canada to prevent the British from invading us, how could you stop him? You may say to him,--"I see no probability of the British invading us"; but he will say to you, "Be silent: I see it, if you don't."
--Abraham Lincoln

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 21, 2004, 06:33:00 PM
It was disturbing reading.  I dont doubt that any of that happened.  How Straight and SAFE are similar is the treatment model.  How the model is applied however is night and day.  Keeping a child in a treatment facility for drug abuse who has no drug problem is kidnapping or false imprisonment or whatever the legal term is for it.  That is why ALL of the kids at Safe HAD to receive a substance abuse diagnosis.  

To say that Straight and Safe are identical is simply not true.  I posted about this earlier.  It is like any tool.  When used by the wrong person it no longer is a tool, but a weapon.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Cayo Hueso on January 21, 2004, 06:51:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-01-21 15:33:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

 That is why ALL of the kids at Safe HAD to receive a substance abuse diagnosis.  


Yes, but WHO gave the diagnosis??  SAFE staff???  Sorry, even if their credentialed, I don't believe for a second that they remained impartial.  It's too easy to confuse (intentionally and unintentionally) "symptoms" of drug abuse for many things, including a teen going through normal problems.  I've found in raising my own kids, who did get into trouble with drugs for a little while, that they learn much more from going through it themselves.  My oldest went through a HORRENDOUS time with Ecstasy, alcohol and prescriptions for about 2 years.  By helping to GUIDE her through that she learned for herself how dangerous it all was.  She's now in nursing school going for her either nurse-practitioners or nurse-anesthetists license.

Quote
To say that Straight and Safe are identical is simply not true.  I posted about this earlier.  It is like any tool.  When used by the wrong person it no longer is a tool, but a weapon.  "


I'm not saying they are identical, but there are WAY TOO MANY similarities for damage NOT to have been done in SAFE...even when you were there - and no, I'm not saying there was physical abuse when you were there, but there is TREMENDOUS, LASTING psychological damage done.

One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils in this world are to be cured by legislation.
--Thomas Brackett Reed

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 21, 2004, 07:14:00 PM
The whole ethics issue was brought up in an earlier post.  The diagnosis was done by a Psy.D, or licensed psychologist who was a contracted employee of SAFE.  To manufacture a diagnosis could risk her losing her license as well as civil action.  Do you have a specific reason to doubt the veracity psychologists or just the one that worked at SAFE?  To a certain degree all credentialed health care professionals who make a diagnosis could have their ethics questioned.  Does that mean every encologist gives every patient with a lump in their throat a diagnosis of cancer, so they can bilk the insurance company for all they can get?
Doesnt this all sound a little paranoid?  I know that people who were in Straight have a heard time looking at programs like Straight objectively based upon their past experiences.  Do you think that is where you base your opinion from?
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on January 21, 2004, 07:55:00 PM
did you learn a thing from straight at all cayhuesto if so learn to apply it to life now  and you would not be so negtive  :???:
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Cayo Hueso on January 21, 2004, 08:50:00 PM
yeah, I learned to be like this.  :roll:
 you have no idea who I am or what kind of a person I am.  Most people consider me to be one of the most upbeat people they know.  When it comes to the Straight/SAFE etc. programs, yes I'm negative and you have them to thank for that.  Why don't you try a constructive debate....ex-safe and I seem to be able to handle it, guess you can't.  Besides, it's hard to respond when there are so many anons posting.  If you really would like to talk about this, create a name so I know which baghead I'm dealing with.

ex-safe:  I'm sure my perception is skewed somewhat, as all of ours are by our life experiences, yours included.  I question those who have the power to put kids into those programs when those very people WORK for those programs.  There is a HUGE difference between an oncology doc at a UCLA diagnosing a lump and these people.  The cancer patient has a choice in their treatment...none of these kids did.

Give to every other human being every right that you claim for yourself - that is my doctrine.

--Thomas Paine

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on January 21, 2004, 09:41:00 PM
someone who knows you well chicken to face life as a whole from what i see go ahead and insult me  :eek:
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Cayo Hueso on January 21, 2004, 09:58:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-01-21 18:41:00, Anonymous wrote:

"someone who knows you well chicken to face life as a whole from what i see go ahead and insult me  :eek:  "


 :???:
what?!?!  Please learn how to write in complete sentences so that we can understand you.

As far as I know, I didn't insult you.....unless you're a different anon...it gets confusing.

Republican n. A liberty despising, money worshiping, control freak. Democrat n. A liberty despising, social engineering, control freak.
-- Anonymous

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: glider on January 22, 2004, 04:23:00 AM
Hey Anonymous,
I bet you're a SAFE parent. This isn't SAFE where you can spout insults and humiliate people and they just take it.   This is the real world where we engage in meaningful dialogue and share our opinions. That?s the problem, places like SAFE and Straight generally make people mean and bitter just like I was when I first got out of Straight until I woke up and accepted myself and other people for who they are.  I learned a lot at Straight.  I learned how to intimidate people and humiliate them.  I yelled at people and confronted them.  I learned how to manipulate them. I learned to be judgmental. I learned self-doubt. I learned the meaning of real fear. I learned how to be ultra critical of people?s behavior and their beliefs. I learned how to be abusive to my fellow man. I will spend the rest of my life trying to unlearn what I learned in Straight.
~John
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: glider on January 22, 2004, 05:28:00 AM
what a great article! Thanks for the link Cayohueso


http://thestraights.com/people/medical- ... miller.htm (http://thestraights.com/people/medical-doctors/miller.htm)
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: SyN on January 22, 2004, 08:59:00 AM
AMEN glider. im an elan kid myself but it was the same theory.... Get the kids to want to walk all over each other for personal gain and fuk everyone. Vocal and physicall abuse was rewarded and sticking up for your friends had you staring at a wall or scrubbing floors for a month.  I definetly brought this hostility out with me and have been deprogramming my self of this for 7 years now.
SyN
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 22, 2004, 10:15:00 AM
We were on a roll here, lets not let one misguided Anon ruin it.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: kaydeejaded on January 22, 2004, 11:33:00 AM
learn from STRAIGHT

Holy shit !

No you didn't, I could slam you on the floor in four point restraints good ole straight inc style like they taught me so well.

I could tear your self esteem down make you cry.

I could make you attempt suicide when you got out.

I could beat you up.

Anything else....you wanna know....I learned my lessons well!

Suppose you were an idiot.  And suppose you were a member of Congress.  But I repeat myself.
Mark Twain

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on January 22, 2004, 11:37:00 AM
i was talking to cayohueso that was all i agree with the rest of you she is full of shit  :???: i not a safe parent at all was in straight at the same time as her is all honest with ones self is a big one for people to handle
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 22, 2004, 11:54:00 AM
Dearest kaydeejaded,

What are you talking about?

Love,

Ex-SafeGuy
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 22, 2004, 11:55:00 AM
Dear Anon,

To make things easier for all of us to understand, would you please use punctuation, complete sentences, etc.  Thanks
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Cayo Hueso on January 23, 2004, 03:47:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-01-22 08:37:00, Anonymous wrote:

"i was talking to cayohueso that was all i agree with the rest of you she is full of shit  :???: i not a safe parent at all was in straight at the same time as her is all honest with ones self is a big one for people to handle "


Who else besides you said I was full of shit.  Looks like most people are agreeing with me.  Maybe it's just the fact that no one can read anything you write.

Guard with jealous attention the public Liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that Jewel. Unfortunately, Nothing will Preserve it but downright Force. Whenever you Give Up that Force, you are ruined.....The Great Object is that every man be armed.....Everyone who is able may have a gun.
- Patrick Henry

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Cayo Hueso on January 23, 2004, 03:58:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-01-22 08:37:00, Anonymous wrote:

"i was talking to cayohueso that was all i agree with the rest of you she is full of shit  :???: i not a safe parent at all was in straight at the same time as her is all honest with ones self is a big one for people to handle "


Now I know who you are........I'm sorry you were hurt, but please deal with personal stuff personally.  If you feel the need to speak to me about this....email me.  If you'd rather deal with it here, fine....but post who you are so we know which anon we're dealing with.

It really puzzles me to see Marijuana connected with Narcotics - Dope and all that crap?it's a thousand times better than whiskey - it's an Assistant - a friend.
Louis Armstrong

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: SyN on January 23, 2004, 09:47:00 PM
ex safe counselor you are an asshole.

just like a mind fukr to keep doing it even unconsciously.

prick ex staff your just like the ones i delt with at elan. and yes i can tell who you are by your posts.  You obviously get your rocks off fuking with these people that were in a program you helped run.

why else would the ex staff of any of these programs post here and keep stabbing at people.??

you prolly enjoyed restraining children, lord i hope one of them get their hands on you.  lucky for you i have my own ghosts to hunt down n confront.  And 10-1 if anyone of the kids you harmed mentally or physically comfronted you as an adult you would shit your pants. and beg for forgivness.

all you straight survivors have my respect; as i have been reading up on the place. it is the same in theory as elan but seems more like they got you kids more with chemicals then just plain physical abuse. i could be wrong whatever, but you straight kids are SURVIVORS!!!! and thats what matters.
SyN
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on January 26, 2004, 11:23:00 AM
All of u need to get over STRAIGHT because it is no longer open. SAFE won't be open for too much longer either.  Its been years since anyone was in there so get over it....
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 26, 2004, 11:35:00 AM
I have to agree with Anon in that I dont think SAFE will be open much longer.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: kaydeejaded on January 27, 2004, 01:20:00 PM
Why DEAR EXSAFE counselor if I tell anyone to fuck off safely assume its YOU.......

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:


you make me laugh.

Speak gently! 't is a little thing Dropp'd in the heart's deep well; The good, the joy, that it may bring Eternity shall tell.
-- G. W. Langford: Speak gently.

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 27, 2004, 01:25:00 PM
Dearest kaydeejaded,

What are you talking about?

Love,

Ex-SafeGuy

You still have not answered my question.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on January 27, 2004, 01:44:00 PM
Hey exsafecounselor, r u going to email me sometime this year?
u know who this is, u credent..lol
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 27, 2004, 02:34:00 PM
I called last night and sent you an email today.  By the way, the word is creton!
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on January 27, 2004, 03:01:00 PM
Whatever it is, that's what u r.. can't check email from work all the time, have to be careful. call me later on like around 9. gotta get the taxes done..
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 27, 2004, 03:19:00 PM
Okie Dokie :wave:
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: kaydeejaded on January 27, 2004, 03:31:00 PM
you would know the word....
weasel

When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl.
--
Anonymous . . . for obvious reasons

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: ehm on January 27, 2004, 06:23:00 PM
28 frikkin pages...? eh...

There lives more faith, in honest doubt,
Believe me, than in half the creeds.
Alfred Lord Tennyson

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 27, 2004, 06:39:00 PM
It is quite a bit of reading, but it talks about everything.  If you have a specific question, I will answer it.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: ehm on January 27, 2004, 10:43:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-01-27 15:39:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

"It is quite a bit of reading, but it talks about everything.  If you have a specific question, I will answer it.


"


Okay, but why didn't you relpy to my PM?

The overwhelming majority of people have more than the average (mean) number of legs.  
-- E. Grebenik

Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Froderik on January 27, 2004, 10:47:00 PM
That's cretin, with an "i."
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 28, 2004, 01:46:00 PM
Just replied this afternoon.  Sorry for the delay.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 28, 2004, 01:49:00 PM
Frodo,

You are correct.  Thanks for the spell check.

Ex
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: SyN on January 29, 2004, 12:16:00 AM
how many children did you restrain staff?
no point in putting an ex before your title.
did u enjoy it?
 do you self medicate?
i cannot imagine the dreams you have.
  but do sugar coat it.
maybe give some self taught reasurance that you DID NOT
mean any harm did you?
 usually that does the most harm.
man i cannot imagine being a staff, in these places.
SyN
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 29, 2004, 11:08:00 AM
I could not imagine a person like you being on staff either.  We agree!
 :grin:

[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2004-01-29 08:08 ]
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on January 29, 2004, 11:43:00 PM
since you quote Mr. Jefferson did you know that he also said change happens thru education and action.

And thru education and action surviours of these treatment centers are going to shut them down .

Please what your Mr. Jefferson quote actually says considering the nature (context) of where it is coming is that you are a true sadist and that you like it that way.

A true sign that some one is mentally ill is that they are very much unaware of their illness . I applaud the fact that you stand up and say that you are a sick human being.

 Now I just wish that you would get help .

 Matt
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on January 30, 2004, 09:39:00 AM
so i guess you did get your rocks off that way ex staff.
it makes sense then that you would come here and fuk with them all again
if you are ex staff as you say.  lord knows here, but your definetly an idiot. no sorry.  an asshole.  but you cant help it, its prolly been in your blood line for eons.  so besides restraining children what was your other favorite things to do to them??
please respond with some generic answer and a random quote to show how deeply your balls have shrunk.  and keep up the self medication.
SyN
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on February 11, 2004, 03:57:00 PM
:wave:
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on April 30, 2006, 03:37:00 AM
Hello ExSafe Counselor
I was a parent in the Straight/SAFE Orlando program in Orlando from 9/90 thru 12/92.  I
have not been able to picture whom you are.
However, my son is alive today because of the
program.  He is soon to be 32 years of age. He
was 15 when we went to Straight.  Obviously, I
was on board when the change was made to SAFE.
My son commenced in 12/92 but did not graduate
until 5/96.  He relapsed soon after commencing.
He went back on his own to complete aftercare in
96.  He is married today and has two children and
is doing well.  
I am 15 years sober as a direct result of the
program.  I am active in AA and I continue to
support the SAFE program in Orlando, which, by
the way is continuing to operate. I agree with
a statement that you made about financial difficulties because that continues to be factual
today.  
My experience at SAFE changed my life and I credit
it with saving my marriage and giving me a family
that can communicate today.  We just celebrated 47
years of marriage.  
I probably would recall whom you are if I had your
name, but, I haven't been able to id you from my
memory.
I hope you will continue to stay active on this site.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on May 01, 2006, 11:48:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-04-30 00:37:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Hello ExSafe Counselor

I was a parent in the Straight/SAFE Orlando program in Orlando from 9/90 thru 12/92.  I

have not been able to picture whom you are.

However, my son is alive today because of the

program.  He is soon to be 32 years of age. He

was 15 when we went to Straight.  Obviously, I

was on board when the change was made to SAFE.

My son commenced in 12/92 but did not graduate

until 5/96.  He relapsed soon after commencing.

He went back on his own to complete aftercare in

96.  He is married today and has two children and

is doing well.  

I am 15 years sober as a direct result of the

program.  I am active in AA and I continue to

support the SAFE program in Orlando, which, by

the way is continuing to operate. I agree with

a statement that you made about financial difficulties because that continues to be factual

today.  

My experience at SAFE changed my life and I credit

it with saving my marriage and giving me a family

that can communicate today.  We just celebrated 47

years of marriage.  

I probably would recall whom you are if I had your

name, but, I haven't been able to id you from my

memory.

I hope you will continue to stay active on this site.  "


you son is doing well because he grew up.  SAFE didn't save his life....that is only your blind opinion.  My parents had the same ideas about straight....read Help at any cost.    Maybe you will be lifted from the fog of brainnwashing.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on May 03, 2006, 02:03:00 PM
I am sorry to disappoint you.  Many people actually get help there.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on May 04, 2006, 03:39:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-05-03 11:03:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

"I am sorry to disappoint you.  Many people actually get help there.  
"


sorry; I still don't believe it.  People grow up.  Most of childhood problems are out grown.  Drug use/abuse is usually one of 'em.  

When you are out of SAFE for over 20 years, then I doubt you will feet the same way.  Also, as long as you call yourself "ex safe ex safe counselor then I think your brain is still rinsed by Loretta and her side kick B. Seeber.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: exsafecounselor on May 06, 2006, 01:49:00 PM
I have not worked there in 14 years and can honestly say Loretta has never been one of my favorite people.  That does not change the fact that some people get help there.  Sorry to burst your bubble.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on May 07, 2006, 12:19:00 AM
:rofl:
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: stillsober on June 01, 2006, 12:54:00 AM
This is amusing. I just learned about this forum. I find it amusing that people hold on to things for so long. I was in SAFE for 14 months in the 90's and worked there for several years after that. While I will say that I didn't agree with everything that went on while I was in there as well as when I worked there the fact remains that the program was effective at teaching me the basics of staying sober. The people who wasted their time in there and acted like asses are the ones who did not get anything out of the program. Furthermore I have never seen anyone "beltlooped" in SAFE or held by the shoulder. It seems to me that if you people put as much effort into bettering your own lives and letting go of things that happened in your past as you do bitching about SAFE you might be able to be happy at some point in your life. Oh and how many of you people are still sober?
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on June 02, 2006, 12:36:00 AM
SEETHER LYRICS

"Fine Again"

It seems like every day?s the same
and I?m left to discover on my own
It seems like everything is gray
and there?s no color to behold
They say it?s over and I?m fine again, yeah
Try to stay sober feels like I?m dying here

And I am aware now of how
everything?s gonna be fine one day
Too late, I?m in hell I am prepared now,
seems everyone?s gonna be fine
One day too late, just as well

I feel the dream in me expire
and there?s no one left to blame it on
I hear you label me a liar
?cause I can?t seem to get this through
You say it?s over, I can sigh again, yeah
Why try to stay sober when I?m dying here

And I am aware now of how
everything?s gonna be fine one day
Too late, I?m in hell
I am prepared now,
seems everyone?s gonna be fine
One day too late; just as well

And I?m not scared now.
I must assure you,
you?re never gonna get away
And I?m not scared now.
And I?m not scared now. No?

I am aware now of how
everything?s gonna be fine one day
Too late, I?m in hell
I am prepared now
seems everyone?s gonna be fine
One day too late, just as well
I am prepared now,
seems everything?s gonna be fine for me
For me; for myself.
For me, for me, for myself
For me, for me, for myself

 :skull:
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on June 21, 2006, 07:17:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-05-31 21:54:00, stillsober wrote:

"This is amusing. I just learned about this forum. I find it amusing that people hold on to things for so long. I was in SAFE for 14 months in the 90's and worked there for several years after that. While I will say that I didn't agree with everything that went on while I was in there as well as when I worked there the fact remains that the program was effective at teaching me the basics of staying sober. The people who wasted their time in there and acted like asses are the ones who did not get anything out of the program. Furthermore I have never seen anyone "beltlooped" in SAFE or held by the shoulder. It seems to me that if you people put as much effort into bettering your own lives and letting go of things that happened in your past as you do bitching about SAFE you might be able to be happy at some point in your life. Oh and how many of you people are still sober?"


Nope, nots sober by "safe" or "straight, inc" definition.....but, I make about $14k per month in my business, so I deserve a fucking drink or bowl now and again.  I am far more happpy with my life now that I drink and smoke now and then.   My life is far "better" than when I was in straight and still believed their shit.  

You have been out SAFE since the 90's and you still believe their crap?  Have you even graduated high school?   You still seem to have that "high school" type mentality.   LOL
 


See ya safeling..........you are just too sober and brainwashed for me.    :wave:
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on June 21, 2006, 07:23:00 PM
Quote
but, I make about $14k per month in my business, so I deserve a fucking drink or bowl now and again.

I like this attitude and agree. What do you do for a living?
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on June 21, 2006, 07:57:00 PM
I am a small business owner.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on June 21, 2006, 08:03:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-05-31 21:54:00, stillsober wrote:

"This is amusing. I just learned about this forum. I find it amusing that people hold on to things for so long. I was in SAFE for 14 months in the 90's and worked there for several years after that. While I will say that I didn't agree with everything that went on while I was in there as well as when I worked there the fact remains that the program was effective at teaching me the basics of staying sober. The people who wasted their time in there and acted like asses are the ones who did not get anything out of the program. Furthermore I have never seen anyone "beltlooped" in SAFE or held by the shoulder. It seems to me that if you people put as much effort into bettering your own lives and letting go of things that happened in your past as you do bitching about SAFE you might be able to be happy at some point in your life. Oh and how many of you people are still sober?"


Ya know, you really have to pity people like this.  

Sober?  I enjoy a good cocktail and a joint every now and again.  What the hell does that have to do with anything?  Oh, that's right.  You're still living your life according to the SAFE mentality.  No one who uses a substance in any form could POSSIBLY be successful.  StillSober, I'm truly sorry for you.  

Better my life?  Shit, if it got any better I'd get arrested. ::cheers::
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on June 21, 2006, 08:22:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-06-21 16:57:00, Anonymous wrote:

I am a small business owner.

Would you elaborate a little?
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on June 21, 2006, 08:52:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-06-21 17:22:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2006-06-21 16:57:00, Anonymous wrote:


I am a small business owner.


Would you elaborate a little?"


no, none of your bidness...........
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on June 21, 2006, 09:12:00 PM
Come on, ahole...talk to me.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on June 21, 2006, 09:34:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-06-21 18:12:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Come on, ahole...talk to me."


so after that comment,you really think I will tell you anything?   Geezzzzzzzzz -  nope,done talking with you.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on June 21, 2006, 11:03:00 PM
Quote
so after that comment,you really think I will tell you anything? Geezzzzzzzzz - nope,done talking with you.

Whatever..I was certain that you weren't going to tell us much from the very beginning; I was just confirming that premonition.

I'm a friend of the psychic friends... have a nice night.  :wave:
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on June 22, 2006, 12:50:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-06-21 17:52:00, Anonymous wrote:

Quote

On 2006-06-21 17:22:00, Anonymous wrote:

Quote
On 2006-06-21 16:57:00, Anonymous wrote:


I am a small business owner.

Would you elaborate a little?"



no, none of your bidness...........

Lemme guess.. a novelty salesman?
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on June 22, 2006, 12:59:00 AM
Recreational pharmeceutical salesman.

(http://http://www.taintedthoughts.com/pics/smileys/rasta.gif) (http://http://www.taintedthoughts.com/pics/smileys/bong.gif)
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on June 25, 2006, 12:51:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-06-21 21:50:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2006-06-21 17:52:00, Anonymous wrote:


Quote


On 2006-06-21 17:22:00, Anonymous wrote:


Quote

On 2006-06-21 16:57:00, Anonymous wrote:



I am a small business owner.



Would you elaborate a little?"






no, none of your bidness...........


Lemme guess.. a novelty salesman?"


no, uh, to do my job one has to have at least a Bachelor degree, most people in my career field have a MS degree.   And, I enjoy making so much money per month.  LOL - go on and be a SAFE supporter.  Most of the ones that I have made contact with that still support SAFE are losers and brainwashed.  Have at it. My life is far better than when I was trying to "work the program"   Hey, give it a try.....not working your   program.   It works,and you will feel much better about yourself. :smile:
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on June 25, 2006, 01:02:00 PM
Quote
no, uh, to do my job one has to have at least a Bachelor degree, most people in my career field have a MS degree.   And, I enjoy making so much money per month.  LOL - go on and be a SAFE supporter.  Most of the ones that I have made contact with that still support SAFE are losers and brainwashed.  Have at it. My life is far better than when I was trying to "work the program"   Hey, give it a try.....not working your   program.   It works,and you will feel much better about yourself. :smile:

I was just asking out of curiosity; I was never in SAFE. I hate brainwashed program ppl. What is it that you do?
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on June 26, 2006, 10:49:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-06-25 10:02:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote
no, uh, to do my job one has to have at least a Bachelor degree, most people in my career field have a MS degree.   And, I enjoy making so much money per month.  LOL - go on and be a SAFE supporter.  Most of the ones that I have made contact with that still support SAFE are losers and brainwashed.  Have at it. My life is far better than when I was trying to "work the program"   Hey, give it a try.....not working your   program.   It works,and you will feel much better about yourself. :smile:

I was just asking out of curiosity; I was never in SAFE. I hate brainwashed program ppl. What is it that you do?"


If I told you "what I do", then some people will automatically know who I am.   I do not want to lay all my cards on the table.   I have had financial consequences in the past for being active on this site.   No harm meant toward you;  I am not comfortable putting my name, or company name or what we actually do on this site.   Hope you  understand.   Not trying to be an "ahole" as I have been called previously.


I hope you understand....

What I am trying to get at is most people outgrow their child hood problems, be it disrespect toward adults, drug use, not wanting to work, etc.   My oldest son was a wild child.   We worked with him as a family, even had some family counseling because I also needed to improve my parenting skills.  Today, my son is a wonderful young man.   He is a father (darn good one), works for a living for a large construction company, (I employ him to assist me with some of my projects as well), is respectful towards his parents.   He accomplished all of this without ever setting foot in a behavior modification program.   Also, ALL OF MY FRIENDS FROM  HIGH SCHOOL,  that did drugs stopped later in life, or  they do not hinder their livelihood.   Most of my "head" friends are either doctors, lawyers, business people or business owners.  NONE of them went to Straight (or SAFE) and they are all ok now.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on June 26, 2006, 11:30:00 AM
shala bump
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: Anonymous on July 12, 2006, 11:48:34 AM
what a piece of shit you.r are.
Title: I am an exsafe counselor
Post by: BROWNIE on July 26, 2006, 06:16:05 PM
Hi !
Title: I am looking for Weaver Hastings.
Post by: Anonymous on January 09, 2007, 10:05:38 PM
If you anyone knows the kid (Weaver Hastings) who was involved with the incident with SAFE, please write me at [email protected]