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Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Facility Question and Answers => Topic started by: sad on June 02, 2010, 01:55:18 AM

Title: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: sad on June 02, 2010, 01:55:18 AM
Does anyone have info on that place?
Their website makes it look all nicey nicey but is it really so?
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: walkedthere on June 02, 2010, 08:24:13 AM
See my response to "does residential work".  For wilderness, add the question of whether or not it is a good idea for a particular person at all.  Some therapeutic boarding schools require wilderness or something similar before enrolling a student, soem other good ones regard it as a waste of time and money.  Much has to do with the nature of the student's 'issues' and the nature of the school's program.  As another post indicates you are considering a particular school on Long Island, I'd guess wilderness would be unnecessary.
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Pile of Dead Kids on June 02, 2010, 09:06:12 AM
Edit: Having one new poster right after another one smelled strongly of samefaggotry. I wonder how many programmies without accounts prowl this board?
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: sad on June 02, 2010, 10:48:25 AM
What is samefaggotry?
I was referring to a school in Long Island but I've read somwhere here on this site a child was there for two years! I take this to mean they do not do a good job.
I want to cross Harmaony Heights off my list but want some reasons for doing so. The school district is recommending a list of places and I want to have reasons to reject those places.
Is there a residential facility that is good?
Has anyone been to Open Sky and can share what goes on there?
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Pile of Dead Kids on June 02, 2010, 11:10:12 AM
Quote from: "sad"
What is samefaggotry?

Well, if you aren't the same person (samefag) as the other poster then you got a brand new follower the moment you showed up here. Congrats!

Quote from: "sad"
I was referring to a school in Long Island but I've read somwhere here on this site a child was there for two years! I take this to mean they do not do a good job.

Most programs will keep your kid as long as the money keeps flowing. Academic boarding schools can encompass all of high school.

Quote
I want to cross Harmaony Heights off my list but want some reasons for doing so. The school district is recommending a list of places and I want to have reasons to reject those places.

Can't really help you much there, as we don't have much information on that program anywhere on this board. Because they take "weekly" students, that's an obvious mechanism for information to get out; it's not likely that Harmony Heights is guilty of the more heinous abuses described on Fornits.

Quote from: "sad"
Is there a residential facility that is good?

Yes! Yes there is. Put five bullets in a revolver, and spin the chambers without looking. Pull back the hammer, put it to your head, squeeze the trigger, and if it just goes *click* and your brains are still inside your skull, you found the good one.

But, again, because of the Monday-Friday day school option, this one isn't likely to be *particularly* nasty and the overall verdict looks like "eh, it's a boarding school, don't send your kids there unless you really have to".

Quote from: "sad"
Has anyone been to Open Sky and can share what goes on there?

http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title ... ss_Therapy (http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Open_Sky_Wilderness_Therapy)

Looks like same shit, different name as far as wilderness programs go, with the official NATSAP Seal of Guaranteed Child Abuse on it and everything.
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: SUCK IT on June 03, 2010, 12:22:18 AM
Wilderness programs are great, they help many kids. Go ahead and ask fornits posters who was abused here at a wilderness program, and you will not get a response. Everything else they post is propaganda to try to distract from this fact that they have no proof that abuse is happening in treatment programs, they just tell people and hope they believe them. Some people might be gullible enough to buy into the anti treatment propaganda here at fornits, but most are not and seek the help they need to protect their family first. This is a website with a handful of extremist posters who were in treatment programs 25 years ago and still bitter. They think Alcoholics Anonymous is evil and should be outlawed, but at the same time believe that all drugs should be legal. They want to put OxyContin on every grocery shelf, and then eliminate the most widely used treatment program to help stop using drugs. Think about that for a second, what type of messed up utopian vision these people have. Not smart at all. Listen to your gut and get the help you need, your kid will thank you in the long run.
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: sad on June 03, 2010, 01:26:00 PM
I am carefully weighing everything I am hearing and reading. My question is, why indeed have certain facilities closed down? for example, Mount Bachelor Academy.
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Anne Bonney on June 03, 2010, 01:33:42 PM
Quote from: "sad"
I am carefully weighing everything I am hearing and reading. My question is, why indeed have certain facilities closed down? for example, Mount Bachelor Academy.


http://www.cafety.org/solutions-and-suc ... my-closing (http://www.cafety.org/solutions-and-successes/791-aspen-education-group-mount-bachelor-academy-closing)

Investigations conducted by the Oregon Department of Human Services at Mt. Bachelor Academy (MBA), a therapeutic boarding school located near Prineville, have resulted in nine substantiated findings of child abuse and neglect against the school's leadership and therapeutic program.

As a result of the abuse investigation and violations of Oregon's licensing standards, the state has ordered Mt. Bachelor Academy to temporarily cease all therapeutic, educational and residential services to children until further notice.

The abuse and neglect findings centered on the program as a whole, as well as the school's Executive Director, and involved five children who attended Mt. Bachelor Academy during 2007-2009. The results of the investigation are being provided to local law enforcement officials.

The investigation was conducted by the Office of Investigation and Training (OIT) at DHS. Investigators with OIT reported that all students at MBA were required to participate in "emotional growth" workshops, called Lifesteps, which included activities that were coercive, intimidating and humiliating -- including sexualized role play and reenactment of past traumatic events, such as prior physical or sexual abuse.

While the initial reports described concerns about Lifesteps, the investigation ultimately revealed serious safety concerns about MBA's curriculum and program as a whole. The experience of the five students was consistent with that of other children enrolled at the school. The report concluded that the experiences of "these five youth are exemplars of the program's treatment of its students as a whole."

As a result of the OIT investigation, DHS Children, Adults and Families Residential Treatment Services and Licensing found violations of state licensing standards for therapeutic boarding schools, and state officials will require MBA to cease providing therapeutic, educational and residential services to children.

The licensing program determined in its investigation that there are conditions present that immediately endanger the health and safety of the children enrolled at MBA. The program found that MBA's methods of educational instruction, emotional and behavioral intervention and daily interaction with students create an immediate threat which places all children at risk of harm.

Further, the investigation revealed that MBA has subjected children to Lifestep workshops as a therapy technique that is harmful and damaging to their health or welfare. In addition, that MBA has not provided the therapeutic treatment necessary for children to overcome or improve with substance abuse issues, mental health issues, eating disorders and other issues, nor provided qualified staff to treat such conditions.

The substantiated incidents of abuse or neglect are shown below:

    * Mt. Bachelor Academy Executive Director neglected the care of four children by failing to ensure individualized and therapeutic treatment plans were developed to address past abuse and significant emotional and behavioral issues.

    * The Mount Bachelor Academy program abused a child in 2007 by requiring the child to engage in sexualized role play in front of staff and peers.

    * The Mount Bachelor program abused a second child in 2009 by requiring the child to make obscene and self-degrading comments out loud, in front of staff and peers. In addition, the Mount Bachelor program neglected the same child during 2008-2009 by failing to provide adequate medical care and supervision.

    * The Mount Bachelor Academy program neglected a third child in 2009, by failing to provide adequate supervision during an international trip.

    * The Mount Bachelor Academy program abused a fourth child in 2008 by requiring the child to engage in degrading activities such as acting out sexualized role play and physical abuse, and by being subjected to obscene and degrading comments by staff in front of other staff and peers.

    * The Mount Bachelor Academy program abused a fifth child during 2009 by requiring and/or permitting staff to use derogatory names, phrases, ridicule and harassment.

    * The Mount Bachelor Academy program neglected five children between 2007 and 2009 by failing to provide individualized treatment to meet their diagnosed mental health needs.

    * The Mount Bachelor Academy program abused five children between 2007 and 2009 by requiring them to engage in activities that were coercive, intimidating, harassing, and/or humiliating.


The substantiated incidents meet Oregon's legal definition of child abuse because they were inconsistent with recommended and appropriate treatment or care, used derogatory names/phrases, profanity, ridicule, harassment, coercion, and/or intimidation that was likely to endanger the child's health or welfare. In addition, the activities subjected children to a substantial risk of harm to their health or welfare, and the adults failed to supervise or intervene when the child needed assistance or care, in an activity that was likely to endanger their health or welfare.

An expert in the field of child and adolescent psychiatry consulted by DHS as part of the investigation concluded: "In general, coercive, degrading and humiliating treatment is harmful to young people, especially those with psychological vulnerabilities. Young people (male and female) who have been victims of abuse often hold themselves responsible for the abuse, and develop sexualized behavior for reasons they often don't understand. To confront them and humiliate them about these behaviors in an effort to force them to see themselves more clearly and consequently change their behavior can be very destructive. It has the risk of reinforcing self-blame and self-loathing attitudes already present in traumatized individuals. It is essentially retraumatizing."

Today's report also includes a substantiated allegation of child abuse against the Executive Director of MBA as "the individual responsible for delivery of therapeutic care to MBA students." In that role, the Executive Director "administers through staff an ‘emotional growth' curriculum in which all students must participate regardless of their emotional, behavioral or mental health needs, and regardless of their own trauma histories. This curriculum is delivered by staff who are not trained to treat the broad range of issues the children bring, and who routinely degrade and humiliate them." The report concludes that the Executive Director, "knew or should have known what happens to students in [the] program."

Mt. Bachelor Academy is a licensed Therapeutic Boarding School, located in a rural area, 26 miles east of Prineville, Oregon, licensed originally in 1988. The school admits both male and female students who are from age 14 to 17.5 at the time of admission, although some children are admitted pursuant to an exception as young as age 13. The total capacity is 125 students and the average length of stay is 14-16 months. Tuition is $6,400 a month with an additional up front, one time $2,200 enrollment fee. Other service fees are not included. In 2008, Mt. Bachelor was reorganized and became a program of Aspen Education Group. Aspen was recently acquired by CRC Health Group, Inc. In March of 2009, MBA had approximately 77 staff and 88 boarding students.

Last March, the state received reports of child abuse against Mt. Bachelor Academy, initially concerning the Lifesteps program at MBA. OIT is a division of DHS that investigates allegations of abuse by paid staff in various therapeutic or treatment settings, and OIT handled the investigation of the reports of abuse at MBA. There were two investigators primarily assigned to go to Prineville and interview people on campus. In addition, the office used three other investigators to conduct witness interviews of people in- and out-of-state. The investigators conducted interviews involving 65 witnesses, including MBA students and staff, along with licensed therapists familiar with individual students. Investigators consulted with a medical expert certified in Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, and they reviewed documents and photographed materials used as part of the MBA therapy program.

At the same time, the DHS Licensing program investigated standards for health and safety and looked at the school's compliance with Oregon Administrative Rules related to their license as a therapeutic boarding school. Licensing notified MBA that they were prohibited from conducting their own investigation into the allegations of abuse reported to have occurred; prohibited from destroying or otherwise concealing school or student records; prohibited from disciplining or threatening discipline to students interviewed during the investigation; prohibited from conducting Lifesteps activities until further notice. Parents of students were notified of the investigation.

A "Therapeutic boarding school" is a program that is primarily a school and not a residential care agency (as defined in OAR 413-215-0506). Therapeutic boarding schools are licensed to provide both educational services and care to children for 24 hours a day and hold themselves out as serving children with emotional or behavioral problems by providing therapeutic services or assuring that children receive therapeutic services.
Title: the closing of Mount Bachelor Academy
Post by: Ursus on June 03, 2010, 02:48:00 PM
Quote from: "sad"
I am carefully weighing everything I am hearing and reading. My question is, why indeed have certain facilities closed down? for example, Mount Bachelor Academy.
Full copy of Oregon DHS's Complaint and Order to Correct Conditions (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=29131&p=350409#p350409) makes for some interesting reading.

See also:

Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Whooter on June 03, 2010, 03:08:59 PM
So it seems there are facilities which have had problems, like any other industry,  but no problems have been found with Open Sky wilderness in Colorado.  I dont know much about it but it does seem like a good program.  They have a very solid clinical team.

As we are all aware, public schools like Columbine High school has had its problems in the past along with public school teachers raping and beating students.  But this isnt an indication that all public schools are unsafe.

I would be careful not to fall into the trap of painting the entire industry the same based on isolated events.



...
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Oz girl on June 04, 2010, 07:15:03 AM
Open sky is run by Emily Demong her bio said she got her start at aspen acheivement academy. The admissions counsellor Lauren Lollini also worked at aac at the time british brat camp was filmed. This place has a long history of disturbing incidents. One boy tried to hang himself. Another incident involved some boys running away and wandering alone in the utah desert in the dangerously hot summer months for days.
The british version of brat camp also depicted one girl getting into a an argument with her admissions counsellors and throwing her shoe at them in temper. The response was for 2 women twice her size to wrestle her to the ground. When she cried out in pain one woman pushed her arm further up her back to show her what "real pain" was. The same series also showed another uncooperative girl being subjected to their "pain compliance technique" which consisted of giving her Chinese burns till she became obedient. This girl was obviously pretty stubborn because they said it went on for a couple of hours. This was the stuff they were willing to be open about. I cant imagine what they do to kids behind closed doors. You say your daughter is acting out due to trauma. Some of the more confronting therapies may exacerbate this. This could potentially lead to physical abuse. Ask the staff a lot of questions about what their time at aspen achievement academy taught them as professionals. Then ask why they condoned the practices of a place that uses pain compliance and see what they say.
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Whooter on June 04, 2010, 05:07:53 PM
Quote from: "Oz girl"
Open sky is run by Emily Demong her bio said she got her start at aspen acheivement academy. The admissions counsellor Lauren Lollini also worked at aac at the time british brat camp was filmed. This place has a long history of disturbing incidents. One boy tried to hang himself. Another incident involved some boys running away and wandering alone in the utah desert in the dangerously hot summer months for days.
The british version of brat camp also depicted one girl getting into a an argument with her admissions counsellors and throwing her shoe at them in temper. The response was for 2 women twice her size to wrestle her to the ground. When she cried out in pain one woman pushed her arm further up her back to show her what "real pain" was. The same series also showed another uncooperative girl being subjected to their "pain compliance technique" which consisted of giving her Chinese burns till she became obedient. This girl was obviously pretty stubborn because they said it went on for a couple of hours. This was the stuff they were willing to be open about. I cant imagine what they do to kids behind closed doors. You say your daughter is acting out due to trauma. Some of the more confronting therapies may exacerbate this. This could potentially lead to physical abuse. Ask the staff a lot of questions about what their time at aspen achievement academy taught them as professionals. Then ask why they condoned the practices of a place that uses pain compliance and see what they say.

Just to be clear all those events have nothing to do with “Open sky Wilderness”.  They occurred someplace else.  
It is Just like describing the events that occurred at Columbine High School and implying they occur at every high school.  They don’t.



...
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Anne Bonney on June 04, 2010, 05:35:33 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Just to be clear all those events have nothing to do with “Open sky Wilderness”.  They occurred someplace else.  
It is Just like describing the events that occurred at Columbine High School and implying they occur at every high school.  They don’t.


Just to be clear, regular high schools do not employ the same emotional tactics that RTCs, Wilderness Camps and the like to.  Most of these places utilize the same methods, which is why they're all so similar.  Columbine was a couple of truly disturbed kids.  The programs' damages are usually done either by staff or at the direction thereof.  Big difference, but you knew that already.  Get some new material.
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Whooter on June 04, 2010, 05:41:16 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Just to be clear all those events have nothing to do with “Open sky Wilderness”.  They occurred someplace else.  
It is Just like describing the events that occurred at Columbine High School and implying they occur at every high school.  They don’t.


Just to be clear, regular high schools do not employ the same emotional tactics that RTCs, Wilderness Camps and the like to.  Most of these places utilize the same methods, which is why they're all so similar.  Columbine was a couple of truly disturbed kids.  The programs' damages are usually done either by staff or at the direction thereof.  Big difference, but you knew that already.  Get some new material.

You may not agree with the comparison I made and that is a different issue.  But the events that Oz Girl described did not occur at "Open Sky Wilderness".  Its important for the readers to be aware of that.  If you feel all wilderness programs are the same that is okay and is your opinion.  But we need to be clear on the facts.



...
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Pile of Dead Kids on June 04, 2010, 05:46:16 PM
And just to be more clear, we're talking about things that the exact same people (Emily Demong and Laura Lollini) working at one facility were involved in, before moving to another facility. Exact same people, exact same environment, exact same "therapy"; the only difference is the name.
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Anne Bonney on June 04, 2010, 05:47:47 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
You may not agree with the comparison I made and that is a different issue.  But the events that Oz Girl described did not occur at "Open Sky Wilderness".  Its important for the readers to be aware of that.  If you feel all wilderness programs are the same that is okay and is your opinion.  But we need to be clear on the facts.


I never said that they're all the same.  Waht I said was that the programs that utilize the confrontative, peer and emotional pressure tactics are dangerous.  Please pay attention.
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Anne Bonney on June 04, 2010, 05:49:31 PM
Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"
And just to be more clear, we're talking about things that the exact same people (Emily Demong and Laura Lollini) working at one facility were involved in, before moving to another facility. Exact same people, exact same environment, exact same "therapy"; the only difference is the name.


Case in point!
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Whooter on June 04, 2010, 05:52:21 PM
Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"
And just to be more clear, we're talking about things that the exact same people (Emily Demong and Laura Lollini) working at one facility were involved in, before moving to another facility. Exact same people, exact same environment, exact same "therapy"; the only difference is the name.

So if the same principal from Columbine moved to your district you would be worried?  If the principal from some of the schools where the teachers raped their students moved locally then we should all be concerned?  
You haven't demonstrated that "Open Sky wilderness" utilizes the same tactics.  Maybe they use a different method?

See what I mean?  You are just assuming and bring no facts to the table to support your views.



...
Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
Post by: Joel on June 04, 2010, 05:52:37 PM
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Anne Bonney on June 04, 2010, 05:56:42 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"
And just to be more clear, we're talking about things that the exact same people (Emily Demong and Laura Lollini) working at one facility were involved in, before moving to another facility. Exact same people, exact same environment, exact same "therapy"; the only difference is the name.

So if the same principal from Columbine moved to your district you would be worried?  If the principal from some of the schools where the teachers raped their students moved locally then we should all be concerned?  
You haven't demonstrated that "Open Sky wilderness" utilizes the same tactics.  Maybe they use a different method?

See what I mean?  You are just assuming and bring no facts to the table to support your views.



As are you.....and the histories of these places more supports our assumptions that most of them work off of the same fundamental model of peer and emotional pressure tactics.
 ::deadhorse::
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Whooter on June 04, 2010, 05:58:57 PM
Quote from: "Joel"
Does either party have proof that could validate their claim and/or establish (1) who (2) what (3) where (4) why (5) when and (6) how?

Exactly,  we cant take events that occurred in one place and assume they are occurring someplace else without some sort of evidence.



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Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Pile of Dead Kids on June 04, 2010, 06:03:25 PM
Joel, we're talking about two people who have gotten their start in this place and now work, as upper management, somewhere else.

http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title ... nt_Academy (http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Aspen_Achievement_Academy)

If you really want to you can search for "brat camp" on Youtube and watch the sick fuckery for yourself. (Edit: No you can't. The episodes *were* on YT, but have since been deleted. Shit.)

You wouldn't trust someone trained in phrenology to do brain surgery, and no reputable hospital would hire a phrenologist. You wouldn't trust someone educated in creationism to teach bioscience, and no reputable college would hire one as a science teacher. Why the fuck would you trust someone quite literally trained in child abuse to take care of your kids, regardless of where they work?

It's like the Catholic Church moving abusive priests around between parishes instead of defrocking them. If you take the exact same people who were doing something, and you put them in the exact same environment, with very similar ideas of what "therapy" is, why would you expect them to do anything different than what they did before?
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Whooter on June 04, 2010, 06:33:36 PM
Quote from: "Joel"
Whooter what proof say you?

Exactly, Joel, where is the proof?  All those events occurred at a different wilderness.  Maybe the director of Open Sky wants to take it into a different direction like many people do when switching places.  Maybe she wants to make it the same as the old place she was at.  Maybe she wants to make it religious or have more clinical staff.  Maybe she wants less clinical staff than that place she worked before so she can realize a bigger profit.  Maybe she wants more abuse to occur!!  Maybe less.

Would the principal of Columbine run her new school a little different?  Would the principal of the school which allowed the teachers to rape students make changes?  or would they look forward to the same events?

So I agree with Joel here that we need proof that Open Sky has incorporated a modality that reflects abuse.  But so far we haven't seen that and from the searches I have made the place seems very successful and the parents and kids seem to have benefited from their stay there.



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Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Pile of Dead Kids on June 04, 2010, 06:43:17 PM
A pedophile and his assistant go around in a windowless white van marked "free candy". The pedophile gets arrested for obvious reasons. The assistant gets away with it.

A few days later the assistant is seen driving his own windowless green van marked "free toys".

We should give the former assistant a chance, right? I mean, how do we know for sure that he's doing the same thing as his boss used to? Heck, the assistant has a website talking about all the good experiences kids have had in his van, and there's testimonials all over his website and everything talking about how great of a person he is and how much he can be trusted. Why wouldn't we let this guy have our kids?
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Whooter on June 04, 2010, 06:49:57 PM
Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"
A pedophile and his assistant go around in a windowless white van marked "free candy". The pedophile gets arrested for obvious reasons. The assistant gets away with it.

A few days later the assistant is seen driving his own windowless green van marked "free toys".

We should give the former assistant a chance, right? I mean, how do we know for sure that he's doing the same thing as his boss used to?

Exactly, good analogy, People are not pedophiles by association, Pile.  If you hang out with gay people for a few years it doesn't mean you will become gay.


...
Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
Post by: Joel on June 04, 2010, 06:56:44 PM
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Anne Bonney on June 04, 2010, 07:06:48 PM
This isn't specifically related to Open Sky, so I apologize for the threadjack but I'll tie it in at the end.

You're never going to be able to really get it Who.   You have no idea what it feels like to be in the clutches of that kind of shitstorm, with the ignorant, blind blessing of your parents.  You've got to have a marketing background because you spin like a pro.  You do your best, and way too often succeed, to paint such a rosy, rational picture of what goes on and how these places work, but what it all boils down to is that you have zero experience of what it's like behind closed doors.  You want so badly to believe that you did the right thing with your kid (and it doesn't really matter if you're actually telling the truth about this daughter you've spoken about or if you're John Reuben, drumming up business for STICC) that you justify or rationalize away any criticisms.  I mean, virtually anything negative, you dismiss or spin.  It's either an isolated incident, or necessary 'tough love', or just a bad apple in the bunch, or an exaggeration.....anything to not have to either face up to what you did, or cut into your income or both.


What you'll never be able to get - never be able to truly understand or even begin to appreciate - is the psychic/soul devastation that can, and very often is brought upon these kids.  The emotional and peer extortion puts your soul and your mind through a macerator and then tries to install ones more to their liking.  

Quote from: "maruska"
When I look at the students of the University where I work..well half of them would probably qualify for a program:)...maybe because it is a Performig arts university:))  
When I look at my own children, how they matured and how our relationship is getting better day by day...they know they can trust me, because I never betrayed their trust. That is a strong foundation.

Parents should realize that being a parent is not walk in a park, it is the hardest job ever. Sometimes you would be desperate, sometimes you would feel you are losing your child , but do not believe anybody can do a better job then you!

And the reward is priceless...


That post really struck a nerve with me.  It is so true.  I'm not saying that there aren't any kids who truly need help because there are...but...in my opinion and belief, based on actual experience in being subjected to this form of "treatment" and some fairly extensive research over these last 10 years or so,  first - the number of kids who actually need inpatient, residential help isn't who ends up in these places. (Edited to add:  and, I believe, pretty goddamned small)  Most are kids who are acting up (I refer you to Maruska's post above...PARENTING IS HARD!!!) and the parents are at their wits end.  I get that.  Belieeeeeeeeeeve me, I get that.  Remember, I've also got two grown kids of my own.  One of which scared the living hell out of me for a very long time.  But second - these types of programs are NOT helpful to kids who actually DO need help and, very often again, are even more damaging.

Now, tying it all back into what we were talking about, we recognize things that you wouldn't.  We can see through the charade because we've actually lived it.  You've been a mere observer, even in addition to your capacity of a parent.  When we hear certain buzzwords and phrases that are common in this type of LGAT/emotional blackmail, we see it for the crap that it is.  You don't. When we see programs shuffle staff around, change names because of bad publicity or actual abuse charges, we question it.  You don't.   At MOST you've got some weekend "personal fulfullment workshop" and your cursory exposure as a parent.  Well, that and your market analysis of the goldmine that is the rehab/therapy culture/industry.

So, g'head and sit up there on your high horse, believing that you have any fucking clue.
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Oz girl on June 04, 2010, 07:27:08 PM
Isnt this supposed to be the forum where people just provide information that may be relevant???? Sad just in case the info was missed in whooters tomfoolery. 2 key staff members worked for a program with a history of abuse. One was working for it at a time when it was quite open about using pain compliance techniques. I would assume any reasonable parent would want to ask questions about that.
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Whooter on June 04, 2010, 07:30:06 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
You're never going to be able to really get it Who. You have no idea what it feels like to be in the clutches of that kind of shitstorm, with the ignorant, blind blessing of your parents. You've got to have a marketing background because you spin like a pro. You do your best, and way too often succeed, to paint such a rosy, rational picture of what goes on and how these places work, but what it all boils down to is that you have zero experience of what it's like behind closed doors. You want so badly to believe that you did the right thing with your kid (and it doesn't really matter if you're actually telling the truth about this daughter you've spoken about or if you're John Reuben, drumming up business for STICC) that you justify or rationalize away any criticisms. I mean, virtually anything negative, you dismiss or spin. It's either an isolated incident, or necessary 'tough love', or just a bad apple in the bunch, or an exaggeration.....anything to not have to either face up to what you did, or cut into your income or both.
What you are saying is the polar opposite of dismissing all the kids who did well as being “Brainwashed” because no kids could possible benefit from these places.
Quote
What you'll never be able to get - never be able to truly understand or even begin to appreciate - is the psychic/soul devastation that can, and very often is brought upon these kids. The emotional and peer extortion puts your soul and your mind through a macerator and then tries to install ones more to their liking.
Actually I do.  I have read extensively and read first hand of the horrors some of these kids went thru.  I have also seen the many kids who benefitted form the programs.  Can you honestly say the same thing?  Or do you only possess information from one side?  How could you possibly draw  a balanced conclusion?

Quote
That post really struck a nerve with me. It is so true. I'm not saying that there aren't any kids who truly need help because there are...but...in my opinion and belief, based on actual experience in being subjected to this form of "treatment" and some fairly extensive research over these last 10 years or so, first - the number of kids who actually need inpatient, residential help isn't who ends up in these places. Most are kids who are acting up (I refer you to Maruska's post above...PARENTING IS HARD!!!) and the parents are at their wits end. I get that. Belieeeeeeeeeeve me, I get that. Remember, I've also got two grown kids of my own. One of which scared the living hell out of me for a very long time. But second - these types of programs are NOT helpful to kids who actually DO need help and, very often again, are even more damaging.
I raised (raising) several kids myself without the help of a program so I know how hard parenting is and I understand the successes and failures.  99.999% of the kids and parents do very well and get thru tough patches on their own.  But a very small percentage of them need help.  If you haven’t walked in their shoes then you do not know the decisions they had to make or how hard they all worked.
I know from reading your posts that you have not had any experience with kids who have been helped by the programs.
Quote
Now, tying it all back into what we were talking about, we recognize things that you wouldn't. We can see through the charade because we've actually lived it. You've been a mere observer, even in addition to your capacity of a parent. When we hear certain buzzwords and phrases that are common in this type of LGAT/emotional blackmail, we see it for the crap that it is. You don't. When we see programs shuffle staff around, change names because of bad publicity or actual abuse charges, we question it. You don't. At MOST you've got some weekend "personal fulfullment workshop" and your cursory exposure as a parent. Well, that and your market analysis of the goldmine that is the rehab/therapy culture/industry.

So, g'head and sit up there on your high horse, believing that you have any fucking clue.
Sorry, Anne, but anyone who just read your post would say you are the one on the high horse.  I am just posting based on my experiences.  I have seen first hand the successes of the programs and you have not.  Its plain and simple, you have zero experience with todays programs and the experience you do have is all one-sided.  Your knowledge is from 30 years ago based on a program that is long closed and no knowledge of any kids who did well in a program.

I have the advantage of being able to see both sides of the industry.  The good and the bad so I have a better perspective than you do and I can tell you that you are way off in your thinking.  But I wouldn’t want you to rock your world by seeing more than you experienced in straight.  I am sorry you are stuck in the past and had such a bad experience.



...
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Pile of Dead Kids on June 04, 2010, 07:31:51 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"
A pedophile and his assistant go around in a windowless white van marked "free candy". The pedophile gets arrested for obvious reasons. The assistant gets away with it.

A few days later the assistant is seen driving his own windowless green van marked "free toys".

We should give the former assistant a chance, right? I mean, how do we know for sure that he's doing the same thing as his boss used to?

Exactly, good analogy, People are not pedophiles by association, Pile.  If you hang out with gay people for a few years it doesn't mean you will become gay.

I'm not going to reply. I'm just going to quote this so it doesn't get edited away. You might continue the argument with Anne, but I'll just let you have the final say between you and me with this one, Whooter. I've also screenshotted it.

Oz Girl: I don't know, I think Sad's gotten quite a bit of information available with this conversation. Namely, the fact that this is actually how these people think and that she has sent her daughter to them. But, yes, this is the basis of the link between Aspen Achievement Academy and the place she (apparently) sent her daughter to:

Quote from: "Oz Girl"
2 key staff members worked for a program with a history of abuse. One was working for it at a time when it was quite open about using pain compliance techniques. I would assume any reasonable parent would want to ask questions about that.
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: DannyB II on June 04, 2010, 07:41:41 PM
Quote from: "Oz girl"
Open sky is run by Emily Demong her bio said she got her start at aspen acheivement academy. The admissions counsellor Lauren Lollini also worked at aac at the time british brat camp was filmed. This place has a long history of disturbing incidents. One boy tried to hang himself. Another incident involved some boys running away and wandering alone in the utah desert in the dangerously hot summer months for days.
The british version of brat camp also depicted one girl getting into a an argument with her admissions counsellors and throwing her shoe at them in temper. The response was for 2 women twice her size to wrestle her to the ground. When she cried out in pain one woman pushed her arm further up her back to show her what "real pain" was. The same series also showed another uncooperative girl being subjected to their "pain compliance technique" which consisted of giving her Chinese burns till she became obedient. This girl was obviously pretty stubborn because they said it went on for a couple of hours. This was the stuff they were willing to be open about. I cant imagine what they do to kids behind closed doors. You say your daughter is acting out due to trauma. Some of the more confronting therapies may exacerbate this. This could potentially lead to physical abuse. Ask the staff a lot of questions about what their time at aspen achievement academy taught them as professionals. Then ask why they condoned the practices of a place that uses pain compliance and see what they say.

OK OZ 1974 I was at marathon House in Newport R.I. I ran away from there and wandered around for 2 days. I slept in a newspaper bin for both nights and hung out with some drunks and drank cheap wine. I knew the cops were looking for me so whenever a cop car came around I hid. This was in November, it is pretty cold in Newe England in November. Is this a disturbing incident, Elan had people run away and wander in the northern woods of Maine and there they sent out "trackers" many trackers to find you. Is that a blessing. I while at Elan went all the way to Oceola, Iowa to pick up two girls that were insisting on staying with this trucker who had picked them up in Mass. This was against their will they were 15yrs the trucker was 35 or so.
They were spotted at a truck stop and the cops came. They lied about there ages and wanted to stay with him.
Now is all of this the cause of a program. How much do we pile on.

Danny
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Anne Bonney on June 04, 2010, 07:53:06 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
What you are saying is the polar opposite of dismissing all the kids who did well as being “Brainwashed” because no kids could possible benefit from these places.

No, that's not what I'm saying but I'm not surprised you would interpret it that way.  I have a feeling I'm going to be saying that quite a bit.

Quote from: "Whooter"
Actually I do.  I have read extensively and read first hand of the horrors some of these kids went thru.

As I said...you've "read first hand horrors".  You have not clue fucking one how it effects someone.

Quote from: "Whooter"
I have also seen the many kids who benefitted form the programs.  Can you honestly say the same thing?

Yes, but not the ones that employ this type of "therapy".  Or at least not anything with any depth or stamina.  

Quote
Or do you only possess information from one side?  How could you possibly draw  a balanced conclusion?


Again, please read for comprehension.  First, I've never maintained that I'm completely without bias, but - second - I believe, given actual experience inside[/u], in addition to my research give me (apart from you) a unique perspective.


Quote from: "Whooter"
I raised (raising) several kids myself without the help of a program so I know how hard parenting is and I understand the successes and failures.  99.999% of the kids and parents do very well and get thru tough patches on their own.  But a very small percentage of them need help.  If you haven’t walked in their shoes then you do not know the decisions they had to make or how hard they all worked.

READ FOR COMPREHENSION!!!   I *have* walked in their shoes, as well as those of kids subjected to this form of "help" and "treatment".


Quote
I know from reading your posts that you have not had any experience with kids who have been helped by the programs.

Then you've been reading selectively.  


Quote
I am just posting based on my experiences.  I have seen first hand the successes of the programs and you have not.  
 Its plain and simple, you have zero experience with todays programs and the experience you do have is all one-sided.   Your knowledge is from 30 years ago based on a program that is long closed and no knowledge of any kids who did well in a program.


You're a liar on all counts.


Quote
I have the advantage of being able to see both sides of the industry.  The good and the bad


You are a mere observer.

Quote
so I have a better perspective than you do

 :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:

Quote
and I can tell you that you are way off in your thinking.


Thank you for your diagnosis, Doctor.  ::)

 
Quote
But I wouldn’t want you to rock your world by seeing more than you experienced in straight.  I am sorry you are stuck in the past and had such a bad experience.

Again.  You just don't get it and never will be able to.
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Pile of Dead Kids on June 04, 2010, 07:54:01 PM
Aaaaaaaand now the thread is completely derailed. Sad, you might as well just focus on the first two pages of this topic, it's toast from here on out.

1. Hot damn that trucker was in ephebophile heaven.

2. Danny admitting to recapturing kids for Elan is more than he's admitted before. At what point did they break you, Danny? At what point did you stop wanting to get away from it and start doing their bidding to bring more kids back?

3. If two fifteen-year-old girls would rather stay with a 35-year-old trucker than go back to where they were living, something is obviously very, very wrong with where they were living. Quid erat fucking demonstratum.
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Anne Bonney on June 04, 2010, 08:06:12 PM
Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"
Aaaaaaaand now the thread is completely derailed. Sad, you might as well just focus on the first two pages of this topic, it's toast from here on out.


Ok...in all fairness, I did apologize for the threadjack but did bring it back around...


Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Now, tying it all back into what we were talking about, we recognize things that you wouldn't.  We can see through the charade because we've actually lived it.  You've been a mere observer, even in addition to your capacity of a parent.  When we hear certain buzzwords and phrases that are common in this type of LGAT/emotional blackmail, we see it for the crap that it is.  You don't. When we see programs shuffle staff around, change names because of bad publicity or actual abuse charges, we question it.  You don't.   At MOST you've got some weekend "personal fulfullment workshop" and your cursory exposure as a parent.  Well, that and your market analysis of the goldmine that is the rehab/therapy culture/industry.

So, g'head and sit up there on your high horse, believing that you have any fucking clue.
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Pile of Dead Kids on June 04, 2010, 08:16:31 PM
That wasn't on-topic, that was just more arguing with Whooter.

And he's just plain done. He has absolutely no clue how badly he's damned himself, to any parent with any remote amount of sanity.

I'm just gonna upload this screenshot and we can just pull it out any time he opens his mouth.
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Anne Bonney on June 04, 2010, 08:21:02 PM
Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"
That wasn't on-topic, that was just more arguing with Whooter.

Sorry it didn't meet with your expectations.  It was pretty fucking heartfelt, from my standpoint.
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Whooter on June 04, 2010, 08:23:25 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"
Aaaaaaaand now the thread is completely derailed. Sad, you might as well just focus on the first two pages of this topic, it's toast from here on out.


Ok...in all fairness, I did apologize for the threadjack but did bring it back around...


I think it would help if you kept the focus on "Open Sky" and stuck with the facts.  But I do appreciate that you recognized the derail.

Does anyone have first hand info on this place?



...
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: DannyB II on June 04, 2010, 08:24:42 PM
Quote
"Pile of Dead Kids" Aaaaaaaand now the thread is completely derailed. Sad, you might as well just focus on the first two pages of this topic, it's toast from here on out.
What more is there to say pile, she asked a question. You answered it many times over.

Quote
1. Hot damn that trucker was in ephebophile heaven.
Your a sick dude, they could have ended up dead.

Quote
2. Danny admitting to recapturing kids for Elan is more than he's admitted before. At what point did they break you, Danny? At what point did you stop wanting to get away from it and start doing their bidding to bring more kids back?
We all participated in tracking kids. This happened while I was still a resident. Matt also picked up kids as a resident, We fought in the ring, we screamed at people during a GM. You did what you were told.

Quote
3. If two fifteen-year-old girls would rather stay with a 35-year-old trucker than go back to where they were living, something is obviously very, very wrong with where they were living. Quid erat fucking demonstratum
What is sad here there parents were paying are expenses, they knew their girls did not want to be there but they did not give a shit. They did not want them home nor did the girls want to go home. No they did not want to be in Elan who did, really.
Stop being obnoxious Pile lets call it a day.

Danny
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Anne Bonney on June 04, 2010, 08:31:19 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
.

I think it would help if you kept the focus on "Open Sky" and stuck with the facts.  But I do appreciate that you recognized the derail.

Does anyone have first hand info on this place?




You got it....here, back on track...


Quote from: "Oz girl"
Open sky is run by Emily Demong her bio said she got her start at aspen acheivement academy. The admissions counsellor Lauren Lollini also worked at aac at the time british brat camp was filmed. This place has a long history of disturbing incidents. One boy tried to hang himself. Another incident involved some boys running away and wandering alone in the utah desert in the dangerously hot summer months for days. The british version of brat camp also depicted one girl getting into a an argument with her admissions counsellors and throwing her shoe at them in temper. The response was for 2 women twice her size to wrestle her to the ground. When she cried out in pain one woman pushed her arm further up her back to show her what "real pain" was. The same series also showed another uncooperative girl being subjected to their "pain compliance technique" which consisted of giving her Chinese burns till she became obedient. This girl was obviously pretty stubborn because they said it went on for a couple of hours. This was the stuff they were willing to be open about. I cant imagine what they do to kids behind closed doors. You say your daughter is acting out due to trauma. Some of the more confronting therapies may exacerbate this. This could potentially lead to physical abuse. Ask the staff a lot of questions about what their time at aspen achievement academy taught them as professionals. Then ask why they condoned the practices of a place that uses pain compliance and see what they say.
[/size]
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: DannyB II on June 04, 2010, 08:38:27 PM
Quote
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
.

I think it would help if you kept the focus on "Open Sky" and stuck with the facts.  But I do appreciate that you recognized the derail.

Does anyone have first hand info on this place?




You got it....here, back on track...


Quote from: "Oz girl"
Open sky is run by Emily Demong her bio said she got her start at aspen acheivement academy. The admissions counsellor Lauren Lollini also worked at aac at the time british brat camp was filmed. This place has a long history of disturbing incidents. One boy tried to hang himself. Another incident involved some boys running away and wandering alone in the utah desert in the dangerously hot summer months for days. The british version of brat camp also depicted one girl getting into a an argument with her admissions counsellors and throwing her shoe at them in temper. The response was for 2 women twice her size to wrestle her to the ground. When she cried out in pain one woman pushed her arm further up her back to show her what "real pain" was. The same series also showed another uncooperative girl being subjected to their "pain compliance technique" which consisted of giving her Chinese burns till she became obedient. This girl was obviously pretty stubborn because they said it went on for a couple of hours. This was the stuff they were willing to be open about. I cant imagine what they do to kids behind closed doors. You say your daughter is acting out due to trauma. Some of the more confronting therapies may exacerbate this. This could potentially lead to physical abuse. Ask the staff a lot of questions about what their time at aspen achievement academy taught them as professionals. Then ask why they condoned the practices of a place that uses pain compliance and see what they say.
[/size]


My answer/question again Anne why is it a disturbance or abuse for someone to run away from a place whether in Utah or Maine, or Rhode Island for that matter. I'm sure you ran away from home, I know I did.
Just asking....
My post again:
OK OZ 1974 I was at marathon House in Newport R.I. I ran away from there and wandered around for 2 days. I slept in a newspaper bin for both nights and hung out with some drunks and drank cheap wine. I knew the cops were looking for me so whenever a cop car came around I hid. This was in November, it is pretty cold in Newe England in November. Is this a disturbing incident, Elan had people run away and wander in the northern woods of Maine and there they sent out "trackers" many trackers to find you. Is that a blessing. I while at Elan went all the way to Oceola, Iowa to pick up two girls that were insisting on staying with this trucker who had picked them up in Mass. This was against their will they were 15yrs the trucker was 35 or so.
They were spotted at a truck stop and the cops came. They lied about there ages and wanted to stay with him.
Now is all of this the cause of a program. How much do we pile on.

Danny
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Anne Bonney on June 04, 2010, 08:39:34 PM
Quote from: "DannyB II"
We all participated in tracking kids. This happened while I was still a resident. Matt also picked up kids as a resident, We fought in the ring, we screamed at people during a GM. You did what you were told.


What about as an Assistant Director?  What responsibility would they hold?

Quote
What is sad here there parents were paying are expenses,


^^^^those errors are so mostly consistent, yet at times so hit and miss that I'm almost positive that at least two people post under this screen-name.
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Pile of Dead Kids on June 04, 2010, 08:41:54 PM
Anne: Pearls before swine. Having any kind of real argument with Whooter is pointless, and you know damn well he doesn't give half a shit what you say because what happened to you in Straight was THIRTY YEARS AGO and HE HAS EXPERIENCE WITH BOTH SIDES OF THE ISSUE ( :rofl: ). Bullshit, but familiar bullshit to him and that's basically an auto-answer.

I just maneuver him into saying something completely, irredeemably stupid and then stop. I just had no idea how irredeemably stupid he could be.

Quote from: "Danny"
This happened while I was still a resident. Matt also picked up kids as a resident

That's fucked up. Happened in Straight too, right? Two supposedly disparate programs doing similar things. Gee, I wonder if THAT happens today, with the same staff moving around between them and all?

BTW Danny, learn how to use the quote function. Your quotes are all fucked up half the time.

And I say again that what the kids are willing to endure to run away from the place speaks volumes about it. One kid tried to hang himself to escape the program. Another kid ran away and wandered around Utah getting dehydrated for days, to escape the program. And those fifteen-year-old girls were willing to stay with a 35-year-old trucker- why? Same reason. To escape the program.

If being under hellishly dangerous conditions is better than the program, what does that say about the program?
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: DannyB II on June 04, 2010, 08:45:37 PM
Quote
Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"
That wasn't on-topic, that was just more arguing with Whooter.

And he's just plain done. He has absolutely no clue how badly he's damned himself, to any parent with any remote amount of sanity.

I'm just gonna upload this screenshot and we can just pull it out any time he opens his mouth.

Oh I understand now, you get to decide who is on topic and who is not yet you can wonderfuck anywhere you want. I see....
I thought this was a good topic but your just bashing whooter now. OH I know that is never looked at as a grievance here, dummy me sorry.

Danny
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: photo man on June 04, 2010, 08:46:04 PM
- Mind control -  :rocker:  :rocker:  :rocker:  :rocker:  :rocker:
(http://http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_qzUO62a2vH8/SUyX5CqbAQI/AAAAAAAAAdk/EwnjoVmV-q0/s400/mind_control1.jpg)
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Anne Bonney on June 04, 2010, 08:48:11 PM
Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"
Anne: Pearls before swine. Having any kind of real argument with Whooter is pointless, and you know damn well he doesn't give half a shit what you say because what happened to you in Straight was THIRTY YEARS AGO and HE HAS EXPERIENCE WITH BOTH SIDES OF THE ISSUE (:rofl:). Bullshit, but familiar bullshit to him and that's basically an auto-answer.

I just maneuver him into saying something completely, irredeemably stupid and then stop. I just had no idea how irredeemably stupid he could be.


Yeah, so...who ever said I was responding to convince him of anything?  That wasn't my goal at all.

Quote
BTW Danny, learn how to use the quote function. Your quotes are all fucked up half the time.


Shit, we've been saying that for a while now.  It makes it so hard to wade thru his posts.

Quote
That's fucked up. Happened in Straight too, right? Two supposedly disparate programs doing similar things. Gee, I wonder if THAT happens today, with the same staff moving around between them and all?

Oh yeah...someone would run, end up calling the parents...parents would lie and tell them to come home & they wouldn't be sent back...kid comes home out of TRUST and BAM....."phasers" come out of the closets (literally), tackle them, tie 'em up and bring 'em on back.  Happened ALL the time!

Quote
And I say again that what the kids are willing to endure to run away from the place speaks volumes about it. One kid tried to hang himself to escape the program. Another kid ran away and wandered around Utah getting dehydrated for days, to escape the program. And those fifteen-year-old girls were willing to stay with a 35-year-old trucker- why? Same reason. To escape the program.

If being under hellishly dangerous conditions is better than the program, what does that say about the program?

Yup.
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: DannyB II on June 04, 2010, 09:03:15 PM
"Pile of Dead Kids"]Anne: Pearls before swine. Having any kind of real argument with Whooter is pointless, and you know damn well he doesn't give half a shit what you say because what happened to you in Straight was THIRTY YEARS AGO and HE HAS EXPERIENCE WITH BOTH SIDES OF THE ISSUE ( :rofl: ). Bullshit, but familiar bullshit to him and that's basically an auto-answer.
I just maneuver him into saying something completely, irredeemably stupid and then stop. I just had no idea how irredeemably stupid he could be.

Quote from: "Danny"
This happened while I was still a resident. Matt also picked up kids as a resident

That's fucked up. Happened in Straight too, right? Two supposedly disparate programs doing similar things. Gee, I wonder if THAT happens today, with the same staff moving around between them and all?
 
BTW Danny, learn how to use the quote function. Your quotes are all fucked up half the time.
Quote
Dig Dig.......thanks.

And I say again that what the kids are willing to endure to run away from the place speaks volumes about it. One kid tried to hang himself to escape the program. Another kid ran away and wandered around Utah getting dehydrated for days, to escape the program.  And those fifteen-year-old girls were willing to stay with a 35-year-old trucker- why? Same reason. To escape the program.
Quote
Nope wrong again Pile that is not the truth. Those girls were in the famous program in Chicago that Marvin Schwartz was privy to yanking kids out of to send to Elan. The reason for being there was drugs, skipping school, running away from home. They ran away from the program in Chicago individually. They could have cared less if it was Elan or Elderberry High School they wanted to be on there own. Personally I know that feeling well. So sorry dude go run your analogy somewhere else this time.

If being under hellishly dangerous conditions is better than the program, what does that say about the program?
Quote
Sometimes alot sometimes it doesn't matter kids just want to be free of parent abuse and program abuse. Pile I tell ya it seems your parents did a job on you. I've had similar experiences. Just say'in dude.

Danny
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: SUCK IT on June 04, 2010, 09:06:03 PM
Quote from: "Oz girl"
O This place has a long history of disturbing incidents. One boy tried to hang himself. Another incident involved some boys running away and wandering alone in the utah desert in the dangerously hot summer months for days. The british version of brat camp also depicted one girl getting into a an argument with her admissions counsellors and throwing her shoe at them in temper.


Quote
I cant imagine what they do to kids behind closed doors.

This is a problem with fornits. None of these incidents is a treatment program harming kids. These are wrong choices made by the kids themselves, period. The treatment program employees try their best to respond to these incidents. These incidents are proof of why their parents sent them away to get help in the first place. Of course incidents occur when you are dealing with troubled teens, but they are incidents of the teens making poor choices.

One boy tried to hang himself.
But I thought treatment wasn't necessary for these kids who don't have problems? The extremist on fornits believes that this wilderness program is so evil that it drives a completely innocent go lucky kid to try to hang themselves. That is not realistic, obviously this kid had problems and needed help thereby justifying the choice of his parents.

Another incident involved some boys running away and wandering alone in the utah desert in the dangerously hot summer months for days.
Bad choice on the part of these troubled teens. Fornits will argue that programs are too restrictive, but then criticize another treatment program for being more open with the kids and allowing the the freedom of being outdoors, and yes, running if they so choose to. These kids chose to run, that decision is on them. Would the posters on fornits suggest that these kids should of instead be sent to a locked treatment center?

The british version of brat camp also depicted one girl getting into a an argument with her admissions counsellors and throwing her shoe at them in temper.
Just another innocent, nice teenager who was sent to treatment for no reason, right? She sounds like a lovely kid, I can't imagine why her parents would sent her to get help. If fornits posters had shoes being thrown at their heads, how would they react? Letting a troubled teen take advantage of adults and do whatever they want is bad parenting and will only hurt the kid in the long run, some kids just need to have someone finally say no to them.
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: DannyB II on June 04, 2010, 09:12:28 PM
Quote
Quote from: "SUCK IT"
Quote from: "Oz girl"
O This place has a long history of disturbing incidents. One boy tried to hang himself. Another incident involved some boys running away and wandering alone in the utah desert in the dangerously hot summer months for days. The british version of brat camp also depicted one girl getting into a an argument with her admissions counsellors and throwing her shoe at them in temper.


Quote
I cant imagine what they do to kids behind closed doors.

This is a problem with fornits. None of these incidents is a treatment program harming kids. These are wrong choices made by the kids themselves, period. The treatment program employees try their best to respond to these incidents. These incidents are proof of why their parents sent them away to get help in the first place. Of course incidents occur when you are dealing with troubled teens, but they are incidents of the teens making poor choices.

One boy tried to hang himself.
But I thought treatment wasn't necessary for these kids who don't have problems? The extremist on fornits believes that this wilderness program is so evil that it drives a completely innocent go lucky kid to try to hang themselves. That is not realistic, obviously this kid had problems and needed help thereby justifying the choice of his parents.

Another incident involved some boys running away and wandering alone in the utah desert in the dangerously hot summer months for days.
Bad choice on the part of these troubled teens. Fornits will argue that programs are too restrictive, but then criticize another treatment program for being more open with the kids and allowing the the freedom of being outdoors, and yes, running if they so choose to. These kids chose to run, that decision is on them. Would the posters on fornits suggest that these kids should of instead be sent to a locked treatment center?

The british version of brat camp also depicted one girl getting into a an argument with her admissions counsellors and throwing her shoe at them in temper.
Just another innocent, nice teenager who was sent to treatment for no reason, right? She sounds like a lovely kid, I can't imagine why her parents would sent her to get help.
Quote
If fornits posters had shoes being thrown at their heads, how would they react?
Letting a troubled teen take advantage of adults and do whatever they want is bad parenting and will only hurt the kid in the long run, some kids just need to have someone finally say no to them.

Well we already do know they hurl insults and false accusations back at you. They gang up and call you a troll, schill, staffer, Ass. Director ect.........lol

Danny
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: SUCK IT on June 04, 2010, 09:21:29 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
 I have read extensively and read first hand of the horrors some of these kids went thru.  I have also seen the many kids who benefitted form the programs.

I have the advantage of being able to see both sides of the industry.  The good and the bad
...

No matter what somebody's position might be on programs, nobody can honestly claim what Whooter is saying  here is a lie . These are factual statements being made,  yet they drive the average fornits poster into a frenzy. I wonder why this is. Here is someone acknowledging that while some bad things happen unfortunately in treatment programs there are also many, many kids who are benefiting from treatment. This is not a controversial position, it is very much a common sense approach and based on facts. But it drives people here crazy. Why would someone pointing out the simple fact that one experience does not translate into everybody's experience make people so angry?  In that answer is the solution to the riddle of what fornits is all about, and it's not about truth.
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Anne Bonney on June 04, 2010, 09:26:02 PM
Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"
Anne: Pearls before swine. Having any kind of real argument with Whooter is pointless, and you know damn well he doesn't give half a shit what you say because what happened to you in Straight was THIRTY YEARS AGO and HE HAS EXPERIENCE WITH BOTH SIDES OF THE ISSUE ( :rofl: ). Bullshit, but familiar bullshit to him and that's basically an auto-answer.
I just maneuver him into saying something completely, irredeemably stupid and then stop. I just had no idea how irredeemably stupid he could be.


And you're excellent at it, but we all have our own ways.  I was sooo angry for sooo long and I vented it regularly here.  It wasn't until I shook off the last little bit of the wash (AA) that I finally started to heal and be happy.  You're assuming, regarding me, that I'm posting in an attempt to convince him of something.  I'm not.   I try to be an honest person though and I must admit that he is intelligent enough to rope in the "marks".    My replies to him aren't really to him, per se.  They are a counter.  And it has an added benefit for me personally too.  The more he talks, the more I learn about he mindset of what allows this atrocity to live on.  Kinda like Scientology.  It's taken a while for shit to trickle out, but it's coming.

Now Danny, on the other hand......he's just irresistibly fun to play with.   Is that wrong?   :seg:  :rofl:

They are the personification of the cause and effect of this whole deal.
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Anne Bonney on June 04, 2010, 09:45:39 PM
Quote from: "SUCK IT"
Quote from: "Whooter"
 I have read extensively and read first hand of the horrors some of these kids went thru.  I have also seen the many kids who benefitted form the programs.

I have the advantage of being able to see both sides of the industry.  The good and the bad
...

No matter what somebody's position might be on programs, nobody can honestly claim what Whooter is saying  here is a lie . These are factual statements being made,  yet they drive the average fornits poster into a frenzy. I wonder why this is.

**DOUBLE FACEPALM**

Seriously....you're kidding, right?   What "facts" did he state?  That he's "read about" horrors?  That he's "seen" kids?  Jesus-mother-fucking-christ!!!  Do you people fucking HEAR yourselves??




 
Quote
Here is someone acknowledging that while some bad things happen unfortunately in treatment programs there are also many, many kids who are benefiting from treatment. This is not a controversial position, it is very much a common sense approach and based on facts.

Yep, which kinda negates your strawman argument. [extreme eye rolling]  Nobody is saying that *some* people don't benefit from *treatment*.  The discussion is about who actually *needs* *help* and what *constitutes* said *help* [/extreme eye rolling].

Please try to keep up.

Are you people just functionally retarded or what?  I'm seriously starting to wonder.
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Whooter on June 04, 2010, 11:06:11 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Seriously....you're kidding, right? What "facts" did he state? That he's "read about" horrors? That he's "seen" kids? Jesus-mother-fucking-christ!!! Do you people fucking HEAR yourselves??

I believe what he may be referring to are the statements that kids do very well in programs and some kids do not do well.  Most of the focus and energy (here on fornits) is placed on kids who didn’t do well ignoring the ones who benefit greatly from programs.
I think it is a good idea to keep them all in perspective.  At least that is what I offer here.

Quote
Yep, which kinda negates your strawman argument. [extreme eye rolling] Nobody is saying that *some* people don't benefit from *treatment*. The discussion is about who actually *needs* *help* and what *constitutes* said *help* [/extreme eye rolling].

So you do agree that kids benefit from treatment.  This is the first time I have heard you say this, Anne, which is great.
I think your second statement we can agree on partially, if we can dissect it.  I do believe that the programs could do a bit more in differentiating those who would benefit from the program from those that may not.  A third party screening I think would help go a long way in keeping kids out of programs who do not belong there.
I believe the definition of help and success needs to be defined individually (for each child).  If you review some of the more current studies they do a good job tackling some of the broader topics and define success rates rather well, I think.  These have been a big help to prospective parents in determining the type of program their child may be a good fit for (or not a good fit for).



...
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Pile of Dead Kids on June 04, 2010, 11:06:43 PM
Anne, I don't know if you're providing a counter to that one or what, but that's a genuine 100% troll, in the original reply-grabbing sense. He doesn't believe what he's saying, he's just trolling for the fun of it. I agree that countering Whooter is sometimes necessary to not let his bullshit go unopposed, but (speaking of many derailed threads) it does start getting lengthy, dueling-banjos, and tl;dr. Which is what he's hoping for.

Sad: I don't know if you're still reading this. But this insanity you see before you, the kind of person who literally insists that any of this is necessary and you really could trust your kids with a pedophile's assistant (!)- these people are who you have your daughter with right now. They can give you a fuckton of happy-sounding lies over the phone. They can probably make your daughter do the same thing.

But what they can't do is provide real treatment, or therapy, or care, because they're not qualified or intelligent enough and they don't care.

For God's fucking sake. Before you ask another question gathering 'all your options' for where to send her next, go get your daughter OUT of this business before they do something irreversible.
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: DannyB II on June 04, 2010, 11:07:18 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"
Anne: Pearls before swine. Having any kind of real argument with Whooter is pointless, and you know damn well he doesn't give half a shit what you say because what happened to you in Straight was THIRTY YEARS AGO and HE HAS EXPERIENCE WITH BOTH SIDES OF THE ISSUE ( :rofl: ). Bullshit, but familiar bullshit to him and that's basically an auto-answer.
I just maneuver him into saying something completely, irredeemably stupid and then stop. I just had no idea how irredeemably stupid he could be.

Quote
And you're excellent at it, but we all have our own ways.
and what is yours ways Anne, please do indulge us.
Quote
I was sooo angry for sooo long and I vented it regularly here.
Anne read please....you still are.
Quote
It wasn't until I shook off the last little bit of the wash (AA) that I finally started to heal and be happy.
AA was not ever a source of therapy for you that choice was made while you were still unconscious, your pathology made sure you would never select AA as a source of help. Straight, killed any idea of AA as being a benefit for you Anne.

Quote
You're assuming, regarding me, that I'm posting in an attempt to convince him of something.  I'm not.
Oh yes you are, I hate to admit that for you because you don't see it yet. So therefore you will defend it. " Your heartfelt post you wrote to whooter said as much what your trying to convince him of. I don't see anything wrong with that Anne. Tell him more, really I'm serious. I love this type of posting when people speak there truth

Quote
I try to be an honest person though and I must admit that he is intelligent enough to rope in the "marks".
Whooter is extremely intelligent. I have been saying this for a while. Sometimes it is OK just to listen it doesn't equate to submission.

Quote
My replies to him aren't really to him, per se.  They are a counter.  And it has an added benefit for me personally too.  The more he talks, the more I learn about he mindset of what allows this atrocity to live on.  Kinda like Scientology.  It's taken a while for shit to trickle out, but it's coming.
I don't think you really do this. I think you either one just thought this up or two someone told you this in a conversation at some point. Your not that multi-talented Anne.

Quote
Now Danny, on the other hand......he's just irresistibly fun to play with.   Is that wrong?  
No I don't think so. I have somewhat shown myself to be a clown. I will say though it is a double edge sword. Don't be to pretentious.

Quote
They are the personification of the cause and effect of this whole deal.
Explain please.....

Results definition: personification
1. attribution of personal qualities especially representation of a thing or abstraction as a person or by the human form
2. divinity or imaginary being representing a thing or abstraction
3. embodiment incarnation

Danny
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Whooter on June 04, 2010, 11:31:12 PM
Pile, I think Sad has probably figured out via your foul language and use of the term pedophile that you are just trying to scare her because you lack any factual evidence which shows Open Sky Wilderness to be ineffective or dangerous.  We are all adults and realize that pedophiles exist.  Your logic is a little off and I think you are off the mark a bit to try to convince us that working with pedophiles will turn you into one.  I dont see the logic in that the same as I dont see how working with Gay people would turn a person gay.  Most of these traits are hardwired into people and cannot be changed or rub off on others.
Secondly I dont see how hiring a pedophile with kids around would be good for business, if indeed these places are profit driven.  See what I am saying?

I think we can all agree that the best thing to do (to gain factual  information) is contact the program directly and ask to speak with some parents and kids who have gone through the individual program(s) and find out first hand if the program works.   Most parents do this and, hey, you get to ask some real direct and hard questions.
The program may or may not be a good fit for her daughter.  It’s a good way to find out.



Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: SUCK IT on June 04, 2010, 11:48:24 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
**DOUBLE FACEPALM**

Seriously....you're kidding, right?   What "facts" did he state?  That he's "read about" horrors?  That he's "seen" kids?  Jesus-mother-fucking-christ!!!  Do you people fucking HEAR yourselves??

For every 1 person who goes through treatment and complains it was 'abusive' there are at least 50 people whose lives were saved by it. Here on fornits nobody will hear from the 50 people who owe their life to treatment. They only hear from the 1 person, who spends a lot of energy propagandizing the negativity of all treatment from adolescent programs to alcoholics anonymous. This 1 person naturally omits any incriminating choices of their own or any inconvenient truth which provides a reason why they needed treatment, or any ability to empathize with their parents and understand why it was necessary. To this 1 person the 'treatment industry' is tainted by their experience and forever condemned as evil. This extremist view requires vigilant defense because it runs contrary to common sense thought provided by posters such as Whooter.


 
Quote
Yep, which kinda negates your strawman argument. [extreme eye rolling]  Nobody is saying that *some* people don't benefit from *treatment*.  

Many posters on this forum make the argument than nobody benefits from treatment, and that anyone claiming so is brainwashed. It's refreshing to see you are not a part of this super extremist viewpoint, at least you acknowledge that 'some people benefit from treatment'. The truth is most benefit from treatment while a small, tiny percentage find it 'abusive'.

Quote
The discussion is about who actually *needs* *help* and what *constitutes* said *help* [/extreme eye rolling].[/b]

What better people are in a position to judge this than the parents of a troubled teen? Would you prefer a communist government official be provided to judge whether a parent is right in seeking treatment? But what if the teen is sly, and cons this individual, what then? Just because your friend in treatment told you they were there "for nothing", doesn't mean it's true. You claim being in treatment gives you so much credibility, but you still only have one side of the story. You don't know what people are like at home, or what their parents went through. Parents are in a perfect position to know what type of help would work. Who else would?
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Paul St. John on June 05, 2010, 12:08:16 AM
SFor every 1 person who goes through treatment and complains it was 'abusive' there are at least 50 people whose lives were saved by it.


First of all, I don t know where the fuck you get your statistics. I have yet to find a single person who thinks they benefited from the place I went, when I was there, and it was only 17 years ago.  I am even referring to people who bought into it at the time.

Now, as far the people, whose lives were saved, How do you know that any of these people would be dead today if not for the program?  You don't!








 Here on fornits nobody will hear from the 50 people who owe their life to treatment. They only hear from the 1 person, who spends a lot of energy propagandizing the negativity of all treatment from adolescent programs to alcoholics anonymous.


You paint a pretty picture, but that is still all it is.


 This 1 person naturally omits any incriminating choices of their own or any inconvenient truth which provides a reason why they needed treatment,

Most did drugs.   And I bet that for every one person who ended up in a center for doing drugs, I can find 50 who did drugs, didn t end up in a center, and just grew out of it on their own.

 or any ability to empathize with their parents and understand why it was necessary.


Necessary?  It was necessary.  To say that it was necessary, is to that it worked.  If it worked, why do so many people seem so pissed off about it?  Are you saying that these centers did cure people but they just don t want to admit that they are cured.


 To this 1 person the 'treatment industry' is tainted by their experience and forever condemned as evil.


let's put you in a ring, and see how you feel.




 This extremist view requires vigilant defense because it runs contrary to common sense thought provided by posters such as Whooter.

It require vigilant defense, because there are so many people who are so good at manipulating the truth.


Paul
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Paul St. John on June 05, 2010, 12:17:35 AM
Can you accept that there are a lot of dishonest people who make easy livings through deceit, in the name of helping children?

Can you accept that many of these programs are still in existence today?

Can you accept, that people who actually went to programs might have some insight into this?

Paul
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: SUCK IT on June 05, 2010, 12:32:05 AM
Quote from: "Paul St. John"
Can you accept that there are a lot of dishonest people who make easy livings through deceit, in the name of helping children?

Can you accept that many of these programs are still in existence today?

Can you accept, that people who actually went to programs might have some insight into this?

Paul

I can accept this. I can see from the point of view of the small percentage of people who end up worse off after treatment why this view would compel them to convince others of this view. Something bad happened to me, therefore I want to warn you about it. This is one of the great uses of the internet and is widely utilized for this reason. I can accept that there is a small, from my point of view, tiny risk that a troubled teen will end up worse off or 'abused'. The quotes around the term abuse is because the definition on this forum is fluid to say the least.

I think if an industry wide poll were taken the numbers would break down as I indicated in another post. 80% saved, 18% ambivalent, 1.9% worse off, 0.1% 'abused'. A lot of teens have been through some sort of troubled teen treatment program, so even though the chances are small of negative outcome, eventually over time these numbers add up. On fornits a poll was done which showed about a dozen, with an average of about 20 years from the time they were in treatment.

If a teen is left to their own devices at home without intervention due to this fear of negative result, what are the chances they might overdose on drugs? Get arrested for a crime? Drop out of school, or worse?  These are all the calculations that go on in a parent's mind as they are deciding and seeking out treatment for their troubled teen. Accurate information helps these parents in this decision, and this is where fornits goes too far and suggests that treatment is much more likely to result in a negative outcome than not, which is just not true. I really wonder how many troubled teens sent to all the various types of treatment programs end up as "the walking wounded who can't function due to their broken psyches". If this is true, where are the mental hospitals filled with drooling "survivors" mumbling about how if only my parents didn't send me to treatment I would have been fine.
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Pile of Dead Kids on June 05, 2010, 12:41:10 AM
To improve the quality of trolling, I'd like to remind you that when making up statistics, you should mention all categories available. You missed one.
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: SUCK IT on June 05, 2010, 12:55:05 AM
How many kids have died in treatment programs? Now compare this number to the percentage of troubled teens who end up harming themselves through drug abuse, or suicide. Death is possible outside of treatment programs, and one of the main motivators for parents seeking help for their child in the first place. The fact is the chances are extremely remote that a child will die in a treatment program. If a parent knows their kid is doing addictive and deadly drugs, what are the chances the kid will die from that? What if the kid has a close call and the parent comes home and they are passed out and survive an overdose on heroine, and the child still refuses treatment? In this case what would the average fornits poster argue happen? Because generally speaking a normal teenager's chances of harm are relatively low, but once a parent realizes they are using drugs, or drinking and driving, or any other number of dangerous behaviors the chances go up very quickly. It is at this point parents make the decision to seek treatment, and most will come to the conclusion the chances are greater the child will benefit and be safer in treatment than not.

You cannot take the most emotional and damaging singular events within an entire industry and attempt to indict it from top to bottom, it's not accurate. You can sit on top of a list of dead children and think it helps your argument, but this offers no solutions to parents with troubled teens in need of help. It's an effective position for one thing only, and that is offering up anti program propaganda which you seem particular eager to do. In this role I can understand your usage of these examples, but you are also forgetting their parents sought out treatment for a reason. Would offering no alternative or solutions have prevented them from sending their child to treatment? In this way fornits continues to fail parents because it's more interested in propagandizing than providing an accurate representation about the chances of success or failure within a treatment program. You should think to yourself, how can I use my insight to make this industry safer? Instead of attacking the industry perhaps consider starting a legitimate organization that people will listen to. You can help improve programs, which in turn will help everybody. Sitting on the sidelines throwing mud helps nobody. Think about it.
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Paul St. John on June 05, 2010, 12:58:22 AM
I actually do have some ideas.

I have been thinking about them awhile.

I wouldn t be the person to do it though.  It's not what I want to do..

.. but I have ideas.
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Anne Bonney on June 08, 2010, 02:23:46 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"
A pedophile and his assistant go around in a windowless white van marked "free candy". The pedophile gets arrested for obvious reasons. The assistant gets away with it.

A few days later the assistant is seen driving his own windowless green van marked "free toys".

We should give the former assistant a chance, right? I mean, how do we know for sure that he's doing the same thing as his boss used to?

Exactly, good analogy, People are not pedophiles by association, Pile.  If you hang out with gay people for a few years it doesn't mean you will become gay.

Who's talking about gay people??  Pile was talking about pedophiles.  Why are you attempting to conflate the two?

Most disingenuous poster EVAR!


And seriously?  Pile's analogy?  You'd send your kid into the assistant's van?  Wow....no wonder you  have such an affinity for programs.
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Anne Bonney on June 08, 2010, 02:46:30 PM
Quote from: "SUCK IT"
You cannot take the most emotional and damaging singular events within an entire industry and attempt to indict it from top to bottom, it's not accurate.

It is entirely accurate to indict programs that use these type of tactics.  They are completely unwarranted and have been proven to do more damage, not help.

http://www.teenhelponline.com/trust-your-teen.html (http://www.teenhelponline.com/trust-your-teen.html)

Some confrontation groups use strong group pressure to break down a at risk youth’s defenses in order to compel “honesty.” A target of such a group is sometimes referred to as “being on the hot sea.” Trying to defend against interrogation but subjected to intense attack from the group, the at risk youth eventually breaks under the strain of prolonged confrontation. Defenses are shattered, a flood of emotion comes forth, and the inner person is bared for the scrutiny of the group. The climate of the confrontation groups is one of invasion and exposure.


http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... 000919.htm (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000919.htm)

Treatment

Successful treatment requires close involvement of the child's family. Parents can learn techniques to help manage their child's problem behavior.

In cases of abuse, the child may need to be removed from the family and placed in a less chaotic environment. Treatment with medications or talk therapy may be used for depression and attention-deficit disorder, which commonly accompany conduct disorder.

Many "behavioral modification" schools, "wilderness programs," and "boot camps" are sold to parents as solutions for conduct disorder. These may use a form of "attack therapy" or "confrontation," which can actually be harmful. There is no research support for such techniques. Research suggests that treating children at home, along with their families, is more effective.


If you are considering an inpatient program, be sure to check it out thoroughly. Serious injuries and deaths have been associated with some programs. They are not regulated in many states.



Quote
You can sit on top of a list of dead children and think it helps your argument, but this offers no solutions to parents with troubled teens in need of help.

Primum non nocere.

Quote
In this role I can understand your usage of these examples, but you are also forgetting their parents sought out treatment for a reason.


I'm sure they did, but that doesn't make their "reason" valid.

 
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You should think to yourself, how can I use my insight to make this industry safer?


By eliminating it and recommending real help instead.

Quote
Instead of attacking the industry perhaps consider starting a legitimate organization that people will listen to. You can help improve programs, which in turn will help everybody.

So your solution is just more regulation then?
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: westbeth on January 26, 2011, 03:52:11 PM
I was at Open Sky in the over 18 program. They were not abusive.

 I was in the voluntary program, of course. In theory I could have left at any time. In practice, you have to walk ten miles to a phone with your 50-pound pack, which was not an option I seriously considered. You also get a guide haranguing you the whole way, and an ‘in case we need emotional blackmail’ letter from your parents. Apparently in the under 18 group they took everyone’s shoes at lights out to prevent runaways. [and encourage bedwetting, presumably.]

The guides in my group were pretty clearly sticking to the rules, and the policies were reasonable and safe, as long as never being unmonitored seems reasonable. They did have me strip, squat, and cough, but they never touched me. They made an itemized list of all the belongings I brought, taped the boxes shut, and stored them while I watched. While I was there, nothing escalated to the point where physical restraint would be reasonable, and nobody was allowed to touch anyone else, except for hugs when permission had been explicitly given. Obviously, packs were adjusted, blisters were taped, we gave a hand over rocks, but nothing hinky.

Nobody really got disciplined for anything much while I was there, except for things where you lost privileges like using a knife or going on extra excursions.

For me, Open Sky was 85% a waste of time and 15% helpful. It was basically really frequent group therapy, with a (fairly gentle) dose of boot camp, and wilderness mysticism.  They keep you busy 24/7 – basically no unscheduled time. You’re either doing the basic hiking/camping stuff, or you’re working on self-reflection assignments. The assignments were not helpful for me. If you’ve spent more than 2 minutes in therapy, you’ve already done all of it, though maybe not in such an organized way, or with a whole group of people looking over your shoulder. Being required to journal every day was helpful.
Open Sky might have been more helpful if I had been dealing with substance abuse issues instead of depression. Maybe the incredibly authoritarian rules and emotional manipulation would have been easier to swallow if it actually had a purpose with me.

We didn’t spend much time with actual therapists – once a week, with a fairly defined script – not especially helpful. The guides did most of the heavy lifting, on a game plan they cleared with the therapists.

They did take into account individual capabilities. The most strenuous stuff we did was carrying firewood and water for our camp, and if you said you couldn’t take a full load, you would still have to carry a partial load.  Peer pressure to carry your weight was definitely there, but we also helped each other out when we had trouble with physical stuff.

The other 3-7 people in your group are intimately involved with your work. They all have their own issues. Watching the other people in my group, I think Open Sky would have been totally useless if it hadn’t been my idea, and if I hadn’t gone into it wanting to do the work. Even starting from there, the almost totally inflexible rules and blatant manipulation kind of alienated me, and I spent a lot of time reminding myself that even though much of it seemed stupid, I had decided to try it their way, and it wouldn’t help if I wasn’t sincere.

I got the impression not everyone had that attitude; one girl in particular was incredibly two-faced – what we said around the guides and what she said to the rest of us were very different. Everyone was there voluntarily, but some people it was because they had gotten an ultimatum from their parents. The people who decided themselves got a lot more done; one of the other guys was basically just telling them what they wanted to hear.

Going in, I had no idea what it was actually going to be like. They didn’t give any hint of the ten-mile to a phone rule, and I asked about it. The receptionist I talked to gave the impression that a few materials like books could be kept if they got approval, and then they didn’t do any thing about the stuff I had asked them to get approved, so I have no idea if it would have passed or not.

All in all, Open Sky seems safe if not generally effective, but people definitely need to be wary.
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: 9403390 on January 30, 2011, 12:51:58 AM
I know this forum is about questions and answers but since there has been a long discussion I figured this thread was an exception as it has not been moved to another forum.
I didnt know there was a wilderness option for young adults because I figured most wouldnt go. What this previous poster highlighted to me though is the absurd double standard that seems to be a common theme in wilderness programs. Kids are told constantly that honesty is the best policy. Not just in this industry but at home from their parents. I came home the other day from work to find my twin toddlers in trouble for lying after spilling a green drink on a white couch. Their mother told them that were not in trouble for the spill but for trying to cover it up. I dont think this mentality is unique to my house and many parents who are frustrated enough with badly behaved teens to look at this option seem to be most frustrated if their kid tells lies. So if honesrty and moral integrity is one of the primary values that parents want their kids to have from going to wilderness, it is staggering that a program is so blatantly willing to lie.

Telling someone that they are free to walk away from a treatment program but doing everything possible to manipulate them out of this choice or make it physically difficult is blatantly dishonest and immoral. Battered wives are technically free to leave their abusive relationship but their partner often makes it exceedingly hard to do so. Nobody would say that this is OK. If you really wanted to set a young adult up to have a sucessful experience that got them back on track, surely giving them a detailed picture of what it entailed that was free of any manipulative behaviors would actually be more likely to get them on board. Recognizing that at 18 they are legally considered able to make choices for themselves and working through choices with them seems the only logical thing to do. If a place is not willing to do this then it is time to question the motives. Even prisoners who participate in rehab programs are given a detailed understanding of what is involved and in most cases the choice to sign on.
Title: Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: lillith on August 18, 2011, 10:27:13 AM
If you would like some first hand information about Open Sky - here you go.  I sent my son (then 16) to Open Sky.  He was suicidal, self harming, clinically depressed and self medicating with drugs and alcohol.   My son's father was also clinically depressed.  I am a good, strong mother and did the best that I could but my home had become a toxic place for my son.  Those of you who think that parents can always help a child better than someone from the outside hadn't been in my house.   Did I make mistakes?  Of course.  Haven't you all?  Could I handle the situation?  I didn't think so - Things were going downhill fast.  All three of us needed help by the time that I made the decision to send my son to Open Sky.

I believe that Open Sky saved his life.  It certainly changed all of our lives.  Do I know for certain he would have died if he hadn't gone to Open Sky?  Nope.  But I wasn't willing to take the risk.

My son did not want to go but realized that he needed help.  After 15 weeks in the wilderness, my son came home knowing that there was hope in the world for him.  He gained self confidence and skills to deal with addiction and depression.  There were still struggles when he came home but I can say that 2 years later, he is on a much different path than the one he had been on before I sent him away.

Open Sky makes sure that parents are engaged in the healing process with their children as the home environment is often part of the problem.  I went to counseling, his dad went to counseling, we went to counseling together to help my son heal.  Open Sky gave all of us the tools to move toward a healthier, happier life.

Is it right for everyone?  I don't think so.  However, I do believe that there need to be choices for parents who are desperately trying to save their children's lives.  It takes a lot of work on everyone's part and for me, taking my son out of the home and sending him to Open Sky was the first part of that work, admitting that my best wasn't good enough and that I needed help.  I didn't just drop my son off and say "fix him".  I engaged and worked with Open Sky to make my life better so that I could help my son.

I hope this helps anyone out there who has to make the same terrible decisions that I did.
Title: Frostbites treated in relationship with Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
Post by: Oscar on January 24, 2016, 03:13:32 AM
Quote from: The Durango Herald
Open Sky chief says agency ‘deeply concerned’ about frostbite cases (http://www.durangoherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?aid=/20160120/NEWS01/160129983&template=mobileart)
By Jonathan Romeo Herald staff writer, January 16 2016

The Durango-based Open Sky Wilderness Therapy program could face licensing and accreditation repercussions following a December incident in which six students were sent to a hospital for frostbite and two of them required an emergency flight to Denver for further care.

According to Open Sky’s CEO and founder Aaron Fernandes, the students were treated for frostbite on Dec. 28 and Dec. 29 at Southwest Memorial Hospital in Cortez after being out in nearly zero-degree temperatures in the Utah backcountry.

Four students were evaluated and released. However, two students were flown to Children’s Hospital Colorado in Denver, where they were treated and subsequently released, Fernandes said.

“We don’t have the final answer yet, but at the moment it appears that the students were not wearing suitable footwear for the cold weather conditions,” Fernandes said. “We are still investigating if there were errors in the decision-making by our staff regarding footwear or any other deviations from our safety guidelines.”

Fernandes said responders moved as quickly as possible, but he was “troubled that it took the time it did to get the students from the backcountry to the hospital.”

“Obviously, I am deeply concerned and alarmed about these events. We are doing everything we can to prevent something like this from ever happening again.”

Fernandes said he couldn’t comment further on the nature or seriousness of the injuries, citing student privacy. But he did say “all six students are either currently enrolled in or have recently graduated from the Open Sky program.”

Open Sky, founded in 2006, takes troubled teens and young adults into the backcountry for therapeutic treatment. Courses can last up to 10 weeks, based on the needs of the student.

The program has a summer location in the forests of the San Juan Mountains near Dolores, at an elevation of 7,700 feet.

Its winter site, where the incident occurred, is about an hour and forty-five minutes from Durango in the high desert of southeastern Utah, near the city of Blanding. The base camp elevation is 6,300 feet.

The National Weather Service reported that on Dec. 28 at the Blanding Municipal Airport the high was 26 degrees and the low was 4 degrees. The next day, highs hovered around 28 degrees with lows near 17 degrees.

Paul Gibson, clinical director of the emergency department at Mercy Regional Medical Center, said “it’s got to be pretty freezing out there” for frostbite to occur. Gibson was unfamiliar with the Open Sky incident, but said “the exposure was probably tremendous” to require a transport to Denver.

“They probably exhibited later signs of frostbite,” Gibson said. “That’s when the skin starts to die and fall off. Generally, they’ll send them to the burn center in Denver, because the treatment is pretty similar.”

Open Sky is accredited by the Outdoor Behavioral Healthcare Council and the Association for Experiential Education.

Mike Gass, a director at Outdoor Behavioral research center, said internal and external reviews are conducted of field incidents, which could affect an organization’s accreditation status.

“If a program did something inappropriate, they could be put on probation or, if it’s serious enough, have accreditation revoked,” Gass said. “My understanding is this was a cold snap that came in and affected the program. It’s a rare occurrence, but there are some things in nature you just can’t predict.”

Dan Miller, a standards director for the Association of Experiential Education, wrote in an email that the organization is “aware of this incident, and it maintains regular communication with all of our accredited programs to ensure that they remain in compliance with our standards.”

The Human Services departments of both Colorado and Utah, which Open Sky is licensed under, did not respond to inquiries about the specific incident. Pamela Neu, with Colorado’s DHS, said if an incident reaches a critical level, investigations could be launched under the state’s Child Welfare program.

Fernandes said Open Sky is in compliance with the reporting requirements of both states.

Wilderness therapy came under intense scrutiny in the mid-1990s following the death of a 16-year old boy in Utah involved in a different program. That caused criticism that outdoor programs were more of an abusive boot camp than a holistic healing experience.

Danny Frazer, a co-founder of Open Sky, told High County News at that time it was a “kick in the butt” to the industry, which led many wilderness programs to seek state licensing and accreditation.

“There’s been a major transformation since the mid-1990s when there was a number of accidents and incidents that were inappropriate,” Gass said. “The field has really matured since, in the last 10 to 15 years.”

Robin Reber, an admissions director for Star Guides Wilderness in Grand Junction, said it’s industry practice to use state-of-the-art winter gear when bringing students out into the backcountry in cold temperatures.

“I don’t know of any wilderness program that doesn’t operate year-round,” Reber said. “We’re very careful with the young people we have, and we don’t like being cold either. You have to be really conscious of the temperature.”