Post by: Blopa on October 01, 2001, 07:10:19 PM
I am a parent of a teenage boy that abused every drug, was kicked out of school, stealed from us repeatedly and got in trouble with the police for minor ofenses. He had a very defiant attitutde with us also. As he kept failing drug tests and all the warnings and consequences did very little to improve his behavior or stop his growing, daily drug use, I sent him to Growing Together. I am interested in information about this place and program as I love my son and want to help him and not harm him. I will appreciate any factual info anybody can provide me.
Thanks!
Post by: ramprato on October 01, 2001, 01:28:50 PM
Thank you for writing,
I hope you have had the chance to see the police report about Growing Together at the following link. Its contents concern a sex abuse charge. Scroll down a bit over halfway down and look for the heading "Sex abuse and rights of children in Florida rehab programs", there are 5 further links concerning that police report. I hope that tells you something about Growing Together that the ones running it didn't want you to know. I would implore you to MAKE yourself find other options for your troubled kid. These people are not the answer, don't let them sucker you in anymore saying to you they are it, the only ones that can "help" you kid. The methods they use to "fix" your kid require extreme mental abuse him leaving him shell shocked with lifetime nightmares and perinea, and falsely guilt-ridden for life, you will take what ever problem there was with him before and only add more to his already long list.
Growing together is just a spin-off of Straight Inc., with a new name. Please read up on it at
Post by: Antigen on December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM
Greetings Blopa, and welcome,
We don't hear much, either good or bad, out of Growing Together these days. Here are some
We know that the folks at GT are paying close attention to what we're doing. But they're not talking to us at all. Ususally, when we focus on one of these places, at least a few people will respond either in support of the place or with complaints. That hasn't happened with GT at all so far. The
If I were you, I'd absolutely insist on direct and frequent contact with my son. That's almost an acid test. Anyone tells you that it's therapeutic to isolate an adolescent, even from his mother, is hiding something. Odds are they're hiding the same things they were hiding under the names Straight and LIFE.
You know the old joke:
"How many shrinks does it take to change a lightbulb?"
"Only one, but the lightbulb has to want to change."
That's not completely correct. You can force someone to change against their own will by breaking their will. That is the core method of the Program if GT is still working the same way. And, again, not one soul has come along to suggest otherwise.
So I can't give you absolute proof that GT is still abusing kids. But I can't give you any assurance that they're not, either. Because of what I know about GT's lineage, that's one of the last places on Earth I'd put anyone I love.
If you wander around some of these forums, you'll find that most of us regard this type of high-pressure, confrontational group therapy as worthless and harmful. Even among those who regard their experience as having been helpful most of them attribute that to simply having been removed from a bad situation; change of set and setting.
If you're not able to contact your son without withdrawing him from the Program, withdraw him. Take him camping, on a tour of france, walk the AT or something. Give him a change of setting, more time to think, less opportunity to go wrong for awhile.
And do let us know how it goes.
Post by: FaceKhan on October 01, 2001, 04:22:19 PM
I had not read the earlier post before my response in the other topic.
Definitely get him out, in fact don't send him to any program in Florida or Texas, because the Bush's faith-based initiatives have made the teen rehab ( brainwashing and abuse) industry in those states virtually self-regulating which means that the school administrators many of them religious extremists set their own policies and state child welfare agencies cannot even inspect them anymore.
Post by: Blopa on October 01, 2001, 04:38:51 PM
I started this Topic asking for 'factual' info about GT. The fact that one kid once accused them of abuse does not appear to be conclusive that anything bad actually happens there. You see, we did not take my son there simply to get him out of our lives, we went to GT desperate looking for a solution, after other programs gave up on him. My son has been there for only a month and I saw things that I frankly do not understand (some really look ridiculous) but they do not seem 'bad' per se. I just read so much criticism (some very, very heavy) about these programs, that it made me wonder and I am seeking more informatioin. I wish I could also hear from 'success stories', of 7 stepers that completed and graduated the programs, but I don't know where to find them. I don't condone any form of humiliation, torture of brainwashing. Now: how do you deal (successfully) with the problems of drug use, terrible behavior, law breaking, lack of motivation, liying, stealing, etc.? Does anybody have an alternative that actually works? Sorry to ask, but, do we hear in this forum just the voices of people that failed in the program and are resentful as a result? I read hear some truly hear drenching stories that I am sure are legitimate and honest experiences of many; are there success stories to? How are the lifes of those that left those programs in disgust? Are you OK now, drug and crime free, etc.? If my questions seem to naive I am sorry, I am truly tring to find a solution for my son (an mine) problem. I am not a prude, moralist, or any crap like that, but I do have to address my son's problems with a realistic solution that will work. I appreciate any help anyone can give us.
Post by: Antigen on October 01, 2001, 07:34:26 PM
Check again, please. I gave you a link to some old news items that tell the tale of successful lawsuits and Ken (who was a proud graduate of Straight, Cincinatti for some years) gave you some info on a more recent criminal conviction (not just an allegation, a conviction... though in my opinion it landed on the wrong party)
No, we're not all a bunch of program failures. When I left Straight, Sarasota in `82 I was on 5th phase, pretraining for staff. Many, if not most of the people who post to this forum are graduates and/or former staff or parents. Most of us are doing alright, though a few have come through here who aren't alright at all.
There are very real and sometimes longterm side effects from the isolation, humiliation and pressure tactic used in these programs. If you're not comfortable with the way they're treating the parents, please know that your son is getting it in spades and has no escape, not even a moment of privacy to reflect.
Right now, you have more factual information about what's going on at GT right now than any of us. Not to put too fine a point on it, I know you're in a tough situation and trying your best to do what's right, but I'd like for you to examine the way you're staging the question.
Apparently you're unable to speak with your son or you wouldn't be asking strangers what's going on inside GT. Is that correct? And, instead of asking if any of us have any reason to believe you should be concerned, you seem to be asking whether or not any of us has absolute proof that something is wrong.
In essence, you've turned your son over to total strangers; never even having met with anyone who's completed the program; you don't seem to have any reason to believe that they're not abusing him and you do have ample reason to believe that these same people have abused children in the past.
Mm. or sir, I cannot give you absolute proof that they're doing bad things to your son in there. But I'd get him the hell out of there if I were you just on what you've got so far.
As for what to do next, almost anything is better than abandonment. I know you don't see it that way. The Program staff is probably giving you all kinds of strokes for being such a good parent, paying all the money, attending meetings, dealing with the anguish of not being able to see your son or know that he's safe.
But if GT today is anything at all like they were in the past and like all of the other programs run by the same affiliated people (and I have no reason to believe otherwise), they're telling him just exactly that; your parents don't want you or they wouldn't have brought you here, they wouldn't believe you even if you did tell them what we're doing to you. This is very often true. I'd bet dollars to donoughts they're telling you that you aren't capable of knowing whether or not your son, who you've known and loved all these years, is lying to you. They tell you they have 'special awareness' in dealing with teenagers (asif teenagers were some kind of wild animal and not just young people) and that only they can determine when he's telling the truth. (i.e. when he breaks down and supports their story on any particular point)
All of these bad behaviors you attribute to your son are very definitely cause for concern. But none of them are new to this generation. What did people do with wayward kids for the past couple of hundred generations? Send them to a different environment (boarding school, rural relatives, whatever); keep them busy with various activities; encourage them to do something better, different; let them fall down (but don't cause them to!) and then be there to support them and give direction when they realize they've messed up and ask for help....
There is no simple solution to raising kids no matter how much money and commitment the Program coaxes out of you. If things seem fishy to you for some reason after a month, trust your gut. Like so many other kids, your son will probably learn from his mistakes and outgrow his wild ways even without any help. But it's a lot easier to get situated in life when you have family to depend on.
Post by: Elle on October 02, 2001, 12:03:23 AM
In my opinion, even if it was an allegation, parents need to be weary of what a treatment center did that was so bad, it made a youth report go to such lengths of lying to the athorities.
Since leaving the abusive center I was in, I've gone on to accomplish plenty of great things, and am not on drugs. However, I am very bitter against abusive centers and cults, because of the pain that has been caused to me.
The defiancy in your teen may one day be his greatest quality. Love the fact that he's got determination and individuality, even if he may be aiming it in the wrong directions.
Good luck,
Elle.
Post by: ramprato on October 01, 2001, 03:10:27 PM
Ok, like Ginger was saying I was in Straight Cincinnati, I was put in there 19 years ago Oct 16th, 1982, a year or so before junior was born and I haven't had a substance since. I "graduated" from there and went on with my life trial and error like everybody else. The only difference was that I was contacted by a former Straight Parent whose kid got abused terribly and will have to be in special care for the rest of his life because of the type of "therapy" he received.
This man did his homework and educated me how Straight Inc. and its spin-offs destroyed thousands of families and made millions at it. I already provided you with his link in my last post to you, I will add that everything he wrote down in that website can be backed up with legitimate sources. I found out by reading up on all these sites that I was experiencing PTSD in the ways of nightmares, flashbacks, depression, and unnecessary guilt for starts. I blamed myself for everything that was ever wrong with my family. That's is what those so-called "therapeutic" places teach. They make YOU the parent faultless and stick all the blame in the world on your kid. That's a hell of an incentive to keep your kid there. They tell you your kid is manipulative and label him a "druggie", when all the time they are the true manipulators and have had literally 30 years in its current state to perfect to work the most to their advantage.
In one ear and out the other??? Now frankly, I don't suffer one bit no matter what you decide to do, the damage done to me all those years ago is done, I am only doing this for your kid, trying to save at least one person from experiencing what I did by simply telling you the truth. Verbal abuse is the worst form, your kid can not have any privacy and therefore can not escape it, because it is drilled in him from the early morning when he wakes up, till late at night when he goes to bed, no brakes from it ever, this is BRAINWASHING. They will tell him how worthless he is, how he screwed everybody over. Over and over again he will hear these statements they continually made in his mind until he actually believes it himself. he will lose reasoning ability because of this, you will become blameless and he will become blameful in his mind. Essentially you are allowing them to intervene in his natural ability to make mistakes on his own and learn from them as part of becoming an adult. If you allow them to manipulate you daily (as they will do) to keep you kid in there telling you he will be dead without them, then that's on you, consider yourself warned, you have to live with falling prey to their manipulation of your family situation, and you have to live with the decision you make of what you do about it, not me.
How are those parent group discussions these days? I agree with Ginger, I bet they are leaving you alone now, just give it a little time, soon you will be confronted for even questioning them at GT by having the audacity to talk to us heathens. I think your trying to make yourself "right" no matter what you came on telling us all these things wrong with your son, nothing about what was wrong with you, or others in your family that contributed to dysfunction, it was ALL him, Ok, sure.
If I seem impassioned about this topic, good, I have seen a lot in these last 19 years most of those who were on staff telling me what to do without question are back using drugs, so much for that once boasted 75% success rate they were promoting all those years ago. Some are dead. Some are getting along OK, but are in therapy, wonder why they need therapy? Some are drinking, some aren't, a lot still believe they have drug problems, maybe some really did, but does that mean that everybody that went in there had a "problem", or were the majority of people in there from upper income families that afford to be there and pay the high price.
Oh yeah, why don't I use? I take a bit of medicine now and then and a good adult decision would be not to use any substance while taking medicine, you want the best healing advantage you can get, so how about that, an adult choice has been made without the "help" of Straight Inc., or GT.
Post by: 2dogs2 on October 01, 2001, 04:10:33 AM
Hey if you are looking to keep your kid off drugs for a while ,you have got him somewhere where he can't get any. Good. Now are you prepared to to see your child with problems for the rest of his life! They may not be very big problems but he will have some, Even now the damage is being done. Or they could be huge problems, some former clients of "Straight based" programs have commited suicide because they could not get this crap out of there heads. I , myself was there once.
I graduated from Straight Inc. in Dec. 1987 and it was one of the proudest days of my life. I hugged my Mom and Dad and brothers and sister. And set out on my new life that was going to take me so far.........
It was only a couple of days after I got out that I started getting scared. Everybody in the "real" world was saying and doing things that I couldn't understand. 'Bad "things. Even other people that were clean & sober. I was all alone. The only people that I could talk to were inside and I was not aloud to see them anymore.
You see , This type of theropy takes away all reality and I mean all of it. And replaces it with a "group conscience". It really works for most. For people , like your son, who have a twisted sense of reality , it will replace that with a bunch of crap that works great inside the program for moving along sucsessfully and feeling good(?). He will probably even tell you he likes it and believe it himself, I did. But none of these programs ever explain to their clients that when they get out that all of the stuff they have learned is worthless on the outside when there IS no group!
No offense but you sound like you too are struggling with a little something. Maybe all your kid needs is to know that it's not his fault. You probably screwed your kid up ,you probably alread know this but if you got your kid out and told him how you feel about this (failing as a parent) he may not need another bit of help ...ever! I'm really not trying to be mean by saying this. I wish this could have been the story with me. First word is the only one that is hard to say , the rest are easy. One word.
If you get him out you should skip town right from the place and got somewhere where there are NO distractions. I hope this helps. I don't claim to be right , This is just what I think.... Good luck, To both of you........2-dogs
Post by: LESTAT49203 on October 01, 2001, 10:13:33 PM
I had to chuckle to myself when I read that part of your post that said you wanted to hear the success storyies from the 7 Steppers, or maybe Staff from Straight. Sorry but I don't think there are very many that will contribute there success to Straight. Thats what these guys have been trying to tell you all along. Well if it make's you feel better hearing it from a 7 Stepped Staff member of the old program than here it goes. I was molded and twisted by the program, just like everyone else is trying to describe. We all were forced threw countless nights of sleep deprivation, so called postive peer pressure which consisted of restraining clients on the floor till they went along with the program's rules. etc. etc. I never was able to take a good look at it till after I left staff to get married. It was then I was able to sit back and take a good long look at what had actualy happened to me while I was there. And what was happening to others still. If you want an honest opinion from someone that was there, Straight, and Straight like programs have always been very abusive. Read some of the stories on this board if you realy want to know what those place's are like. I haven't seen one lie or exageration on it the whole time Ive been here. Sorry I dont know of any better treatment for your boy. I know its a hard place to be in. I would suggest letting him take his lumps as a young adolesent, rather than put him in a place like that. Everyone of us still ended up having to take our lumps anyway once we got out and had to start dealing with the real world again. Don't send him to a mental prison to keep him from going to jail. Cincy84
Post by: Blopa on October 01, 2001, 10:09:28 AM
Thank you all for your info, comments and concerns regarding the issue I brought up. I believe you and know that you have been traumatized and abused by those programs. Since I posted the initial message I did quite a bit of research into the specific program where my son is. There are many differences between what you honestly describe and GT and I think I made the mistake of 'guessing' early on that GT was a Straight or Straight-like program. I had the chance to talk to my son one on one and all his complaints where that he is not allowed to smoke cigarettes, that he does not like the food (he put 15 pounds and 2 pants sizes), that one night he was not allowed to bathe and wash his clothes because his oldcomer was tired and that he had no privacy while on the bathroom. He did not complaint of being sat on, being deprived of sleep, put on pbj diets, insulted and humiliated or any of the abuses I see reported on these postings. I spent time in one of the foster houses with 3 clients and their 'parents' and I saw first hand how they all related, I had time to play boardgames and chat at length with the clients. The kids had at all times the right to use the phone and call police if they wanted to, the program bedroom had an alarm but not a lock as they were not locked in. They had a very good second full meal (as the first dinner was served to them at GT before departing). I am not making this up, I have no affiliation or interest whatsoever in defending TG, this is the true observations that we (my wife and I) made. I avoid mentioning here that I actually 'like' a lot of the parents and staff as it is a very subjective and personal taste and I could be mislead by it. Again, maybe my mistake was to believe that this program was similar to what you all suffer through, but it does not look that way. If I ever get a different impression or experience I will post it as I can't possible condone abuse of any kind. Also GT has been open for over 15 years and presumably hundreds if not thousands of kids: we would see a lot more bad rap about 'them' in the net. I looked hard and all I saw was the opinion of one judge and one psychologist, nothing more. Compare that with all the postings here relating to these other places. At this point most everything I saw and heard about GT (not Straight) tells me that this is a good program and they do not torture or abuse kids in any way. I don't doubt that your experiences are real but they relate to other programs as far as I can tell, not GT. That is my believe at this point, if anything changes I will make sure I come back. Thank you all very much for your help and interest.
Edited by: Blopa at: 10/21/01 7:15:52 am
Post by: ramprato on October 01, 2001, 12:50:47 PM
"I believe you and know that you have been traumatized and abused by those programs", Those programs?, um those programs you refer to are the pre-GT:
(Look carefully, you will see "Growing Together" on this chart how it was formed from Straight Inc.)
"GT has been open for over 15 years and presumably hundreds if not thousands of kids: we would see a lot more bad rap about 'them' in the net. I looked hard and all I saw was the opinion of one judge and one psychologist, nothing more." My God, what do you need to get this?, an atom bomb to drop on your head, they have been to the courts for ABUSE, a leopard doesn't change its spots, it just pays off its accusers. They, like Straight settled out of court in order to stay open and continue RAPING MINDS for profit. 15 years ago, Straight started closing down their centers across the country, the process took about 5 years, they were close down for what? ABUSE. But there was money to be made so individuals formerly involved with Straight, reopened up with different names using the same MIND RAPIST tactics.
Do you think we are PAID to be here giving out to you like this? This is a place for us, that were abused to get together and finally be able to talk about it amongst ourselves, and during all this, we come to realize that these places still exist, and we want to save each and every kid out there from experiencing what we did so they can at least attempt to grow from their experiences without having their minds turned to JELLY.
Blinders still on I see. That's OK, become guiltless, walk on water, that makes it easier, let that poor kid take the blame for everything and see what you get out of a son in 15 or 20 years, So he isn't perfect, he yells back, he boozes with friends or whatever, did you ever think he was just trying to reach out in his own way??? You obviously have a couple of bucks, money can even buy your kid a drug problem, what a country! Too bad now that your kid is behind a kind of Berlin wall where you are unable to communicate when you and him need it most...
When you get a shell shocked son back, here is a note of encouragement, he will always have these websites to come to, thank you for helping to turn out a new generation of Stefford Zombies.....Think about it please.
Post by: LESTAT49203 on October 01, 2001, 04:03:53 PM
For your son's sake, I hope your right. Best of luck to both of you.
Post by: Antigen on October 01, 2001, 04:20:16 PM
Up until a couple of years ago, there wasn't anything permanent, indepth or well used on the net about Straight, Inc. This in spite of the many lawsuites, investigations, books and so forth.
Now, all of a sudden, there are sites springing up all over the place. And if you look into the material on the nature of thought reform, you'll find that it takes just about 15 years for most people to 'snap' out of it completely.
I'll tell ya'll a little secret. I called GT posing as a parent concerned about a troubled teen. They actually said 'we have a lot of experience dealing with teenagers. They can't manipulate us like they can their parents, we know just how they think.'
But just remember, only 4 years ago a young boy was gang raped by a group of other boys in a foster home during a hazing ritual called 'the Naked Crusader.' I have to wonder if that's still going on. And, not to put too fine a point on it, but under Florida law, if you have cause to
If you really believe that dog and pony show, I guess you'll fall for anything. Good luck and I pray for your son and all the other kids in Group.
Post by: Elle on October 02, 2001, 02:54:29 AM
Some places are more calmed down than The Straights or Kids of America, so it really is harder for parents to see what their kid is going through. The place that I was in (Alberta Adolecent Recovery Centre) is a Straight spin off. We learned very quickly how to make the parents think that we are doing okay, because if we didn't we would be in quite a bit of trouble, and only kept there for one more week at least. Physical abuse and restraining didn't happen during open meetings where everyone could see. They didn't happen every day. The thing is, that even if they didn't happen at all, those things are the least harmful bit. It's the programming of your mind in order to become more pleasing to society that kills you. Having to make emotional or sexual confessions in order to see yourself as sick, in order to make you think you have to behave as the others in order to recover. Not allowing time alone is a form of abuse. It is one of the key ingredients for brain washing. Those group or "rap" sessions that all of us had gone through are extremely popular in cults. They look like modern day therapy, but in excess they become ways to achieve altered states.
No, there shouldn't be more reports just because it's been open for so long. One reason for that, because kids feel ashamed. They don't know if they really are bad kids for disagreeing, because in the center they weren't allowed to disagree.
Another reason is that usually these centres make friends with Judges, make friends with the police, make friends with social services, make friends with all the other resources available where kids could turn too. Trust me, I have been trying to get my story heard for years now. Some people don't want the centre taken away because it succesfully gets rid of kids who have been in and out of prison, and others won't help because they are afraid of the controversy. I know of many peopel with the authority to close the place down who are aware of sexual, physical, and emotional abuse, but they won't do it.
There are plenty of treatment centres out there where you can sit down with yoru son and talk for a few hours a week, and where he can have intense positive therapy. Not all relaxed treatment centres aren't doing there job.
Elle.
Post by: Antigen on October 01, 2001, 01:25:29 PM
Ya' know, this reminds me of the sad tale of my dearly departed great uncle Joe. It was just prior to prohibition and he had a job cleaning up at the brewery. One day, he fell into a full beer vat. Uncle Jim and Uncle Thom were there. They dove in and tried to fish him out, but he fought `em off and subsequently drowned.
Blopa, I heard it through the grape vine that you have far more concrete evidence of abuse than just the Program's lineage. If you fail to protect your son at this point, there's no going back. He may forgive you one day, but he'll never ever trust you again.
Post by: Blopa on October 01, 2001, 02:42:52 PM
Thank you very much all for your interest in helping my son and I. I am not in anyway downplaying what you been through (and still are) and I know you do not have any secret agenda as you have nothing to win or lose by sharing on your traumatic experience. After clearly establishing that I will discuss the present situation that started this Topic. The first thing that comes to mind is that several of the most openly troubling practices of Straight are absent on the practice at GT: special diet, food and sleep deprivation, isolation (not access to Children and Family or police by phone), kids locked with key on bedrooms. Those I know to be true as I saw first hand while fostering out (visiting host family houses with the kids there). Other things I was told by kids and parents is that they do not sit on kids, they are never locked alone, they are not insulted, spited at or humiliated screaming at their faces, etc.
Another issue, central to the big picture, is the brain washing. In principle, I am personally against all forms of brain washing. The caveat is that my son (and probably most people with self-destructive behavior) have already been brain washed and that is why they are actively seeking to kill themselves (and others) by abusing drugs, breathing AC gases (freon?) and other toxics that are known to destroy brain cells and terminate their lives at different paces. Or by driving at very fast speed while high or drunk, etc.
So the starting point of this treatment is not a happy Kids that is having a safe life. We started with a kid that was way on his way to kill himself and maybe others. We did not chose to disrupt a life, our aim is to get him to stop killing himself. Now, it is not an easy job to have someone abandon his most precious and valued beliefs: the entire drug culture, self mutilation and destruction, complete contempt for all the rules (right or wrong) that make his existence in the community possible, his absolute repudiation for any advice or even possibility of having a normal life (work, earn a living, stay sober and do whatever you chose to do with your life within the boundaries of the law).
How do you change all that without washing the Kid's mind? I am speaking from my mind and for myself as no one in any of the treatment centers we visited (including GT) ever admitting to resorting to brain washing. But I think that some sort of serious re-programming of the mind (aka brain washing) would have to take place to make such a radical change in someone concepts, thinking process, feeling process, etc. I know that simply talking to that person does not suffice. We tried that, we used psychologists, psychiatrists, medication, outpatient therapy, church, gifts, contracts, treats, you names. While doing all these, our son kept running in the opposite direction at an increased speed, doing more drugs, hanging out with very dangerous characters, getting in fights, cursing and screaming at us, breaking things, closing his mind more and more.
I do not think that we could just sit on the side hoping that he will get better by himself, as he was going to kill himself, possible others including us. It was impossible to talk with him about anything. He was deeply sad, even suicidal. He was stealing from us. This is the scene in most homes of troubled teenagers of the other parents we spoke with. So, with all honesty, what is there to do for a parent in this predicament? Is easy to blame the medicine at hand, but is there any other REALISTIC medicine? As ugly as it sounds, I think that you have to de-program and re-program the patient's mind to get them out of that rut. It sounds horrible, but what is the REALISTIC alternative. The person in on an accelerated path of self-destruction as thousands do die every year from this disease, drug abuse, suicide, etc. Talking won't do it since he would not listen, therapy as outpatient did not work either. Eckerd Youth Alternatives worked, but for a year or so. COPAC threw him out. La Amistad was a mad-house that he hated. South Miami Drug Rehab Center could not work with him. What else to try? Do I give up on him? And he is not seating still waiting for us to find a good solution, he is trying to kill himself with the drug use, etc. while we think and consider the alternatives. What will you do in such a case?
He will have to unlearn a lot of crap he learned, change his taste in music, friends, thought process, motivation, decency, etc. How in the world do you achieve all that?
I wish there was a pill he could take and get well, a book he could read or some magic words that someone can spell and make such fundamental changes as he needs to make to stay alive. Short of that, I think that some serious reprogramming of the mind would have to take place and I am surely no expert to judge and decide what it would entail. In the meantime I am glad he is safe and seems to be making progress.
Worse case, if he survives this treatment and will take him (as you say) 15 years to get right again, that implies that we will be alive 15 years from now, and that is good news. It certainly beats the alternative.
Those are my considerations at this time.
Regarding allegations of abuse (I just read your posting), no, I do not have anything more than allegations and it will be very easy to convince me otherwise: I you know any case that resulted on a conviction against GT, and you care to, please give me the case number, decision on the case, judge,etc. I will research such case/cases. So far I found none.
Thanks again.
Edited by: Blopa at: 10/22/01 1:08:34 pm
Post by: ramprato on December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM
Those people that run GT prey on people like you. It's not because you're such a nice guy, it's not because they have a genuine concern for your kid, You have a couple of dollars in the bank and that' all they want, MONEY plain and simple. Look around the room at GT, and what do you see, you don't see kids from the SLUMS do you??
The majority of us that post here and on the other sites came from upper middle income backgrounds, that's who these Straight-like places target people with MONEY.
Here's a quote from you I found particularly special:
"I think that some sort of serious re-programming of the mind (aka brain washing) would have to take place to make such a radical change in someoneâ??s concepts, thinking process, feeling process, etc."
That to me that is plain disgusting, to read such garbage. Oh yes, it's OK as long as it's happening to somebody else and not yourself, hell, for that matter, it's OK even if it's your own kid, just throw him into the hands of complete strangers you've never met before and walk away??,well think again ace. Your child is your most precious resource and YOU have been given a RARE opportunity, an opportunity that most of our parents 20 years ago would of begged to have if it were available to them, a chance to talk to 20 year survivors of MIND RAPE MILLS such as GT who have given their very heart and sole to you about the aftereffects of untold pain caused by brainwashing. People like us who have had time to research these sickos, know their game, and all the steps they took along the way for some 30 years to perfect their scam on people like you, it amazes the @#%$ right out of me that you would trust them over us, I'm shaking my head right now in complete disbelief. I know guys, I shouldn't be, I realize we've only been exposing these bastards for a year or so now.
Just taking a stab here, did you ever read up on communist re-education camps?? They use the same sick MIND RAPING tactics in those camps, where do you think the brainwashing kids concept was "barrowed" from. I'm sure were also soon going to find out that this is how the kids in poor middle eastern families are recruited and "educated" to hate Americans, it's just a matter of time before this all comes out and makes the headlines, I'm sure then that you won't mind being the poster-dad advocating brainwashing centers for anything YOU perceive wrong with kids. Did YOU ever go through adolescence, were you ever defiant to your parents, EVER?? How did they correct you? Did they entrust you to strangers?, careful now, your halo is slipping.
Here's a good one from you:
"Worse case, if he survives this treatment and will take him (as you say) 15 years to get â??rightâ?? again, that implies that we will be alive 15 years from now, and that is good news. It certainly beats the alternative."
I think if I were able to turn back the clock, I would of rather find another way of dealing with whatever issues there were at the time concerning my adolescence. Sure, to the outside world, I am a "success", but why the hell is it that when the internet was introduced to this world did I find myself on it advocating the humane treatment of kids and exposing sick MIND RAPE MILLS such as YOUR kid is in??? hmmm? Must be for my health, my emotional health.
Now try to remember these next words I ought to send a recommendation to the AD Council for a public service announcement:
A MIND IS A TERRIBLE THING TO RAPE
Post by: Blopa on October 01, 2001, 04:23:21 PM
Ken, I do not doubt that what you describe is true to the program you 'attended' (Straight), but I clearly established some differences between what you and others describe as taking place in Straight that DOES NOT match what goes on on GT.
Do you know what goes on on GT?
You keep insisting (and you are right) of how horrible the practices of the place you know, are. But I am not talking about that place, since I have no direct knowledge of anything they did there. I am not talking about Straight.
I do see similarities. I also see fundamental differences precisely about the things I see you 'complaint' the most. Again, they do not lock people in isolation (alone or in groups), they do not sit on people hurting them, do do not deny anyone the use of the phone to call for help, they do not put them in ridiculous diets, they do not deprive them of food or sleep. All this differences I know first hand and that is why I can talk about it. They don't mean anything to you?
BTW you still do not offer an alternative treatement.
Ken, I am not interested in winning any argument with you, prove you wrong, etc. as I understand you are only trying to help me and my kid. It just surprises me that you refer to GT as if was a copy of Straight. You know Straight, you do not not GT and you ignore the differences I point out to you.
Post by: Antigen on October 01, 2001, 05:05:04 PM
That's how the thought reform process is described by some scholars. And that's what it feels like. Your previous post said it all and I was horrified by the implications of it.
You know they're brainwashing your son. Did you know they're brainwashing you more? Think for a minute. All of the behaviors you describe as suicidal are, though troubleing, within the range of normal teen rebellion. Driving fast? That's a thrill for some kids, especially boys. Using illicit drugs? 70% of the adult population, dear, including your medical care professionals, your legal people, teachers, bus drivers, cops... you name it. Are they all suicidal? Do they all need to be thought reformed?
Deliberately carving on one's skin is NOT typical teen rebellion. Psyche guidelines usually associate sexual trauma with self mutilation.
Again, was he carving before you put him in the Program?
You keep asking for absolute proof of certain specific methods of abuse, otherwise you will not act to protect your son. If I found out that a neighbor might be a child abuser, I would
Once again, let me remind you that in the State of Florida, if you suspect child abuse you have a legal obligation to report it or at least to intervene on behalf of the child. A few years ago, a mother went to prison on a homocide charge because she forced her teenaged daughter to work in a strip club. The girl was so humiliated by the experience that she killed herself. At this point, you probably don't care enough about your son to intervene on his behalf. But you might want to think carefully about any criminal investigations that might arise should it turn out that they are hurting children there at GT.
Post by: ramprato on October 01, 2001, 05:15:47 PM
"BTW you still do not offer an alternative treatment."
My God, everything you have been told by all of us, and you still refer to that place as "treatment".
Why don't you try NOT locking him away from you, and talk to him instead of entrusting him to complete strangers for starts, sounds like he has had a smorgasbord of places to help "fix" him in his short 17 years of life, what the hell about you?, has he had YOU to talk to yet? or did that go to off to the side while you were piling up all the money? Go into family counseling, study the end affects of brainwashing and what survivors of brainwashing go through day to day because you're going to need the information to deal with you own kid's Post Traumatic Stress Disorder that you and GT have introduced to him. You might find a good therapist for him and you for that matter, one that is familiar with Synanon based MIND RAPING methods because that's the new thing you got to add to the list on top of all the rest of juniors "ailments" boss.
Level with me, when you first started lurking our websites and posted your first message (listing off all these things he did), did you list your son's "problems" off the 20 questions pamphlet they gave you? Do you honestly think that the 20 questions thing started in GT, lol.
"Ken, I am not interested in winning any argument with you, prove you wrong, etc. as I understand you are only trying to help me and my kid. It just surprises me that you refer to GT as if was a copy of Straight. You know Straight, you do not not GT and you ignore the differences I point out to you."
Well you right there, I am actually genuinely concerned amazingly for someone I never even met that I know is being tortured up in his mind, this is getting real personal, I am speaking for somebody that can NOT speak for himself, YOUR son. Pay close attention now.......GT was born out of Straight and uses the same mind raping methods that straight used on all us all those years ago, savvy?
"You know Straight, you do not not GT and you ignore the differences I point out to you."
I think your saying I don't know GT, only Straight, wrong, I know the methods GT uses, I know that there were homosexual abuse charges brought up against GT in a police report that I bet they didn't tell you upon you admitting you child, and entrusting him to. I know that you yourself have said that he has NO privacy and I know that this is a main brainwashing tactic right there not to mention the sheer humiliation of it, (bathroom ect...)
You are fixed in your beliefs, there is NO stopping you, they have you "convinced" another dollar in the pot for them, another ruined human being. I would NEVER put my kid in a place like that under ANY circumstances, those people who run places like that ought to be jailed. Don't worry though, I, like everybody here will do what they can to expose these sickos with or without your help.
Post by: FaceKhan on October 01, 2001, 03:08:45 PM
My best friend returned from a wildnerness program that was supposed to help him. Well despite his big claims upon leaving that he was 'cured' and he loved his parents and all that @#%$. A few months later he is back to exactly where he was, sitting around, no school, no job, smoking lots of pot, @#%$ one girl, while trying to get back with a girl from years ago, and mooching off his rich alcoholic father and his nuerotic drug abusing mother. 20,000 dollars well spent, afterall isn't a forced hike through the woods with "experts" worth its weight in gold? It certainly "saved" my friend and cleared up his confusion. At best it was adolescence interrupted, and at worst, I don't even know but soon after he came home I was contacted by two former students both highly regarded by the program who had spent 3.5 and 5.5 months (its supposed to be a 84 day program) respectively and had quite an interesting tale of poor supervision, untrained staff, awful management, and violations of common sense and common decency.
When he came home, I felt too awkward to even speak to his parents, afterall he seemed fine (perhaps even happier than he went in) and I had seemingly made a big deal out of nothing. Two and a half months later, I am beginning to think his parents are avoiding me, as I have only seen his father once or twice and his mother not at all, even though I spend at least a few hours a week at his house.
The only thing I hear about Alldredge Academy from Alex , who briefly raved about the program and how he was leaving pot and acid behind him, learning Ha-Kido and getting a job ( "any job" were his exact words) is "there are a lot of brilliant people there"
Kinda cryptic, like he is unsure if they are brilliant cause they helped him or cause they duped, manipulated, and controlled him. Alex, who I once described as the master manipulator who could get anyone to do anything was duped along with his parents.
They say GOD works in mysterious ways, but he is a third rate con man compared to these program operators. Someone who wished to remain anonymous said that "these programs are cults, they are frauds, and they are confidence games." They are also very dangerous.
I have read and listened to the stories of many former program parents. Don't kidd yourself Blopa, the only true statement made by those program people is that you really are in the program, you may not sleep in the building with your son but, the same tactics they use to control your son are being used on you. Who do you trust, the son you have known all his life, your own gut instincts? Or are you going to trust a sly con man, someone you do not even know. You have a problem and you have money and suddenly you have a friend and he seems to know everything about your problem. He knows all the right words to say to get you to sign on the dotted line. Read this Mother's story about her experience in the program's parent seminars
If you try to "break the rules" and pull your son out or perhaps broach the idea to them about a family vacation, watch their reaction, guranteed they will strongly resist any attempt to remove your son from the program's custody.
Lastly I know it may be heard to watch your son abuse drugs but, even legitimate drug treatment only works for people who are addicted or dependent, and most users of ecstasy, marijuana, and LSD are neither addicted nor dependent. Get him out of there, take him away show him you love him, and when things settle down, explain to him calmly why it is important to you that he quit the drugs.
Post by: Antigen on October 01, 2001, 03:59:23 PM
Thanks for that. If I were on better terms with my daughter right now, I'd be trying to set you up with her.
Post by: Elle on October 01, 2001, 12:40:13 PM
Before I went into "treatment centre" that was staight based, I'd been through many other places, therapists, psychologits, ect. My family percieved them as failing, because I hadn't stopped the behavoirs that worried them, however some of them were benificial and changed me quit a bit. An outreach worker who simnply met me for coffee weekly gave me someone to share with, and helped boost my self esteem. I stopped doing drugs, but my parents continued to accuse me of being on them.
I had anorexia, and had since childhood. I'd been severely depressed and suicidal most of my life. I had drug induced psychosis leaving me in a state of constant hollucinations, and was unable to even read for one year. So, certainly my parents had reason to worry, and certainly I was in severe emotional and physical pain. One would think, that things couldn't get worse.
Years after "treatment" I sadly remember those times on drugs and near death as the happiest times in my life, because I hadn't been exposed to the ugliness of a straight based program yet. I think that you need to accept that we are not anti treatment. We are anti straight/straight based treatment, and that is where your son is. You also need to accept that you really have no way of knowing what is going on when you are not in the room. He may start looking physically better because he's put on weight, and he may laugh or smile, but you don't know what's scaring him to make those outward changes. Inwardly, he may be being exposed to something so traumatic that he will never be himself again. That's called killing ones spirit.
I'd like to repeat that the place I was in did NOT use food or sleep deprivation against us. There was hidden physical/sexual abuse happening, but extremely well hidden. Many of the kids didn't even know it was happening to the others. Most kids got fat, and had color back in their cheeks again.
I know that you must love your son to say that you would rather have him brainwashed as long as he's alive, but who is that surving? Many of us will tell you that it might have been best if we'd died from a drug overdose, than gone through straight based programs. As a married woman with pets, a loving new family, and a comfy house, I still sometimes feel that living through it has been too hard, and wonder if it was worth it. I don't ever think that of my drug times. Those are much easier to recover from.
Alternative solution, is let live. I know it seems wrong to sit and watch your child self destruct, but subjecting him to mental, and even sexual abuse is the worst thing to do. A parent outside of your situation would understand that. You keeping him there, is making you feel better. It makes you feel as though you are doing the best thing for him, it let's you feel safe at night (falesly) knowing that he's alive. For his sake, maybe you should imagine what pain has come out of his self destruction, or what sadness may have led him to take it so far. Then, add the insult to the injury of him feeling commited, abandoned, and now probably abused. For the rest of his life he'll wonder why his parents, and everyone from GT thought that he needed to be changed so badly. He'll always feel that there must be something wrong with him, and be afraid to show his true self.
He may be young and niave, but he is a human being who should have equal amount of freedom in life that you do, and I know that you would not want to be commited and brainwashed because you've made bad decisions. And You know what? Knowing you're possibly subjecting him to abuse puts you in a place where that may happen.
Just trying to help you and your son here.
Elle.
Post by: 2dogs2 on October 01, 2001, 04:15:27 AM
I just wanted to tell you that when I was in straight, We were not locked in rooms. All we had were those silly little alarms too. And I never got sat on or restrained. We weren't supposed to cuss when we were "applying" positive peer pressure to other clients. My folks heard some horror stories about Straight but ,were told that it was a completely different deal while I was there. And physically it was. It's not all the stuff that would obviously scare you , that should be worried about. It is the things that don't seem to be that big a deal compared to the alternative. If you would stop pretending to be Mr.Open-mind and really have one, you would be with your son right this minute ,being a real father , saying the right @#%$ . The @#%$ that comes from your heart not some stupid book. I love my dad , but I still to this day can't believe what a big @#%$ he was for paying some people he didn't even know, to do the job he should have done as my father. I just can't believe that you are so afraid of feeling the pain that you WILL feel if you did the right thing and got honest with your baby boy, that you actual find it easier to take the risk of distroying his mind. I don't want to start sounding like the "paronoids" But as a father you are the one who is to impress a life-style (brainwash) on your son. Don't be one of the statistic pussies who choose to abandon the responsibility of being a father, until it becomes a problem and then pay someone else to be your boy's "Daddy". You think your son does all the things he's done because he wants to die? He's not serious about any of it. It's all about "Hey dad I'm right here...do the right thing". The harder you ignore your resposibility the crazier he will become. I know you think you've tried everything but sometimes the most obvious thing is too unbelievably easy. I wish I could sit down with your son and tell him that what ever he has done doesn't matter. He doesn't need to feel bad about who he has become. He doesn't need to feel overwhelmed about how hard it is going to be to change. People can change completely in one second. Have you ever been changed completely in an instant by something? I would be willing to bet my life that your son could change his entire life in one second...If you found the right words...can't help ya there, only you can unravel that mystery...2-dogs
Post by: Kathy on November 01, 2001, 02:22:53 PM
First, I wanted to ask you if you would allow me to visit GT., or attend an open meeting... (if that's what you still call them) I could tell you immediately if GT was the same as Straight, Inc. If you can arrange permission for me to visit, I have no problem traveling down there to Florida and giving you my observation of the program.
Next, you wrote: ***Regarding allegations of abuse (I just read your posting), no, I do not have anything more than allegations and it will be very easy to convince me otherwise: I you know any case that resulted on a conviction against GT, and you care to, please give me the case number, decision on the case, judge,etc. I will research such case/cases. So far I found none.***
As you probably know, over the years, as with any business, the company's lawyers become more legal savvy. After 3 decades of being bombarded with law suits, lawyers continue to learn how to find loop holes in the law that allow these operations to continue. While I don't have a law suit, I can point you to the Police Report that was filed on GT. It probably was settled out of court. That's what has been happening in the recent years.
*****************************
The Police Report filed with the Palm Beach Gardens Police Dept.
ORI>flo502600
Case Number:>78-97-18230
Booking date: Sept. 25, 1997
Booking Time: 1113
Booking No.: 97133613
Statute ?00.04
CT: 1
Charge: Lewd Assault 2nd degree Judge Martin 091597
No Bond Allowed
Charge Type: Felony
Charge: Sexual Battery
Charge: False Imprisonment
This case was filed with the State Attorney's office... Maybe you, 'Blopa', can figure out what happened to this case. I'm in the DC metro area, and I don't have access to the Florida Law Libraries... Let me know what you find out.
Post by: 2dogs2 on November 01, 2001, 07:25:22 PM
I just wanted to know why you haven't responded in a while. Are you off the fence? Which side did you get off on? How's your poor kid doing?....2-dogs
Post by: Blopa on November 01, 2001, 06:03:55 PM
After 3 months in the program, fostering kids and participating, we are very happy with GT and we do not see any glimpse of the abuses reportedly common at other programs. Thanks for your interest and input. Should we change our minds, we will re-visit this site and post it.
Post by: Blopa on November 01, 2001, 06:08:42 PM
After 3 months in the program, fostering kids and participating, we are very happy with GT and we do not see any glimpse of the abuses reportedly common at other programs. Thanks for your interest and input. Should we change our minds, we will re-visit this site and post it.
Post by: Antigen on November 01, 2001, 09:56:06 PM
BTW, not sure if I'm at liberty to disclose identities, but it is rumored that two people who's situations have been discussed on this board have decided to leave the cult life behind in Orlando and to spend the holidays with family somewhere west of the Mississippi. I know of a certain grandma who's overjoyed.
Post by: GregFL on November 01, 2001, 04:36:39 PM
"Worse case, if he survives this treatment and will take him (as you say) 15 years to get right again, that implies that we will be alive 15 years from now, and that is good news. It certainly beats the alternative."
This statement assumes that the "rehab" really works. I am here to say it does not. I know very many graduates of these various programs, and most of them use drugs after graduating, some with a vengence. Recapturing your free will often means thumbing your nose at your capturs,and returning to drug use seems to be the easiest method.
One of my best friends died with a needle in his arm, an apparent intentional overdose/suicide. He graduated at the same time i did.. Other graduates I knew are still messed up, some not. Think about all the kids that used drugs when we were coming up and think about them now. Most have grown out of the destructive behaviors of their youth. Hopefully your son/daughter will also. Tragically, some die. No program can prevent that, and no amount of brainwashing will ever cure anybody, it just substitutes one set of problems for another, and sometimes makes things much worse.
By the way, my name is Greg,a program graduate, and I haven't posted in a long, long time. I was in "treatment" some 27 years ago in a place called the seed, the predecessor to the straight and the place where you son is now. I personally knew the founder of Growing together and the "straight" Are you aware that they both were derived from the same model, a st pete/ft lauderdale drug rehab called the Seed?
Good luck with your child, and I sincerely hope that your relationship with him isn't permanently marred by this. You see, broken families is the real legacy of these programs, not drug free kids.
Post by: FaceKhan on November 01, 2001, 05:14:21 PM
Are you trying to tell us that Blopa pulled his/her kid out and some jerk is posting in his place? Or is it someone else you are referring to?
Slavish discipline makes a slavish temper... If severity carry'd to the
highest pitch does prevail, and works a cure upon the present unruly
distemper, it often brings in the room of it a worse and more dangerous
disease, by breaking the mind; and then, in the place of a disorderly young
fellow, you have a low spirited moap'd creature, who, however with his
unnatural sobriety he may please silly people, who commend tame unactive
children, because they make no noise, nor give them any trouble; yet at
last, will probably prove as uncomfortable a thing to his friends, as he
will be all his life an useless thing to himself and others... Beating them,
and all other sorts of slavish and corporal punishments, are not the
discipline fit to be used in the education of those we would have wise,
good, and ingenuous men...
John Locke, 1692
Post by: Antigen on November 01, 2001, 05:51:17 PM
No, Jason. Notice that it's been some time since Pablo's last post? And this one is sort of a bum's rush?
I'm guessing he either got busted or busted himself for talking to splits, pulls and screw-ups. Might have even brought some difficult questions to staff or the parents' group from here. So now, after they've installed cult members into the guy's home (and, believe me, they're running the place) and had a few more open meetings, maybe one of their grueling weekend seminars, now he's 'decided' that he's perfectly happy with everything about the program. Sounds just exactly like a canned response 'recomended' by the cult.
BTW, HI Greg! :-) Long time no hear from ya! Check your mail.
Post by: FaceKhan on November 01, 2001, 04:06:19 AM
oh. Ok I did find it a bit odd that Blopa would use 2 sorta different names to post the same message twice in 5 minutes and then to come up as unregistered when he was registered before although that could just be because his cookies expired.
Yeah he did seem to be giving us the "hello, goodbye, and in case I don't see ya have a nice life bit" there. Well with what Dubya, Walters and Ashcroft have been doing lately we are all gonna find ourselves attending Bush's new cult which he will call USA, United Sitizens Association. Open meetings start next week right after the summary executions of political dissidents, moderate democrats, the left-wing conspiracy, George Carlin, the entire staff of the New York Times, and any and all drug offenders, who are according to Walters indirectly funding terrorism with their illicit purchases.
Slavish discipline makes a slavish temper... If severity carry'd to the
highest pitch does prevail, and works a cure upon the present unruly
distemper, it often brings in the room of it a worse and more dangerous
disease, by breaking the mind; and then, in the place of a disorderly young
fellow, you have a low spirited moap'd creature, who, however with his
unnatural sobriety he may please silly people, who commend tame unactive
children, because they make no noise, nor give them any trouble; yet at
last, will probably prove as uncomfortable a thing to his friends, as he
will be all his life an useless thing to himself and others... Beating them,
and all other sorts of slavish and corporal punishments, are not the
discipline fit to be used in the education of those we would have wise,
good, and ingenuous men...
John Locke, 1692
Post by: Antigen on November 01, 2001, 10:15:44 PM
OTOH, it has just come to my attention that Drug Free America Incorporated is an inactive corporation in Florida. Not the same entity as Drug Free America Foundation (who has taken over the domain name). And I can't seem to find a law enforcement agency anywhere but Chicago that's giving away free drug test kits and gulag referals to parents.
Is it just me or could there be some disention among the ranks? Maybe just the hint of a retreat? I'd much rather see that than watch them dig their heels in and get what's coming to them. All personal animosity aside, I used to be one of them. There, but for the grace of God and one very kind fomer Jesuit, go I.
Post by: Blopa on December 01, 2001, 06:37:35 PM
I am Blopa (Pablo) and I wrote a much longer reply, but it 'blanked out' or disapeared when I was about to post it, maybe because I am not a registered user anymore. The story of the password is a long one: I was receiving emails constantly for unrelated issues, so I changed my email address at this forum. Now I can't log in anymore with my initial username.
I did not revisit this site for a while until I could make up my mind regarding my son's placement. Up to then I had nothing to contribute.
Nobody asked me to write anything, I did not get in trouble and I did not pull my son.
I am getting kids 3 and 4 times a week, I talk with them a lot, play with them, eat with them. I talk to other parents and with former 'clients', etc. Up to this point I think that this is a good program. There are several kids that leave the day they become 18 (so they can sign themselves out!), and others that chose to stay. There are kids that are droped of the program by staff because their parents do not participate. I witness all of this, nobody told me this things.
I guess that unlike cancer, the treatment and cure of drug addiction is still a 'practice' and not an exact science. But after 3 or 4 other treatment programs and years of counseling, this is the best alternative we know. Like others, my son was way on his way to kill himself with his life on the 'outside'; I doubt he would be alive today. The first thing I had to secure was his life, and that we accomplished. He appears to be working the program.
I see several differences between what I read was normal practice at those other programs and GT: there is no locking people in rooms, there are no special PBJ sandwich diets, no belt-looping (whatever that means), no sitting on top of kids, no spitting at one's face, kids can sign out at 18, kids can refuse treatment (I saw this many times) like not talk, refuse to take pills. All these could be fundamental differences that makes this program different from The Seed, etc.
I understand we are taking a risk, but we were not sitting by the fireplace one day and out of boredom decided to send our beloved son to a jail! We did this when life together became impossible, when his survival was at stake, when he was high and non-functional (like skipping school every other day), etc. I asked here and in other places: Do you have a valid alternative as a solution? and NOBODY came forward with a workable solution. "Talk to him", "Love him unconditionally" etc. are the kind of 'solutions' suggested to me. I did all that, it does not work by itself.
Post by: Cheeky54 on December 01, 2001, 08:04:58 PM
I can't believe after all that you have heard from people, that you don't seem to grasp the simple fact that you'll never see it. The kids will come to your home, you'll talk to parents and graduates who are still obviously brainwashed, they'll never say anything against the program. You'll never see it, until it's to late. Even then you might now, I know tonnes of kids who after they got out of treatment tried to explain to their parents the things that went on when the parents weren't around, and by that point the parents are so programmed they don't believe their own kids.
I use to spend time (on staff) at a different centre trying to convince parents that treatment was the only solution, practiclly begging for the sake of the life of their child, to sign them into the program. I would give everything in the world now if I could sit down with some of those parents and you and try to make you understand how wrong it is.
Tearing someone down to try and build them up into the image you want is wrong. They'll never be the same, they'll never be the person they were meant to be. Even though I have been out of hell for 5 years, I still have not found myself. I don't know if I ever will. They'll always be a bit of them in me and that is really hard to accept.
Post by: Antigen on December 02, 2001, 12:23:43 AM
Pablo, I did offer you an alternative course of action. You just didn't like it. But I'll repeat it to save you the trouble of going back over old postings.
Take a look out your window down to the waterway. See all those little boats skimming playfully on the shimmering water? Buy one or rent one with the money GT will squeeze out of you if given the chance. Take your boy, your wife, maybe a friend or two and spend a couple of weeks or months touring pleasant little sub-tropical vacation spots.
Or maybe a tour of Europe?
Or something more to your liking.
I know this stuff doesn't sound medical or magical enough to do any good. But the fact is that drug abuse and other self destructive behavior is not a disease. In young people, it's more often an adventure gone bad or just a simple lack of perspective. Help your son gain some of that. Give him a change of set and setting and a little distance from his problems. From the look of things, you can afford that.
Even if you can't carry off any of the high buck options mentioned above, it's real cheap to walk the AT. That would afford both of you all of the adventure, solitude and oportunity to commune with nature offered by those high-buck wilderness programs without the risk inherent in abandoning your child to a psychotic, sadistic cult.
Cheeky's right. I never heard of physical beatings during our family's 10 year association with The Seed in Ft. Lauderdale. And I only got sat on once in Sarasota. It was the psychological aspect of the program that was so harmful.
After months of limited sleep, constant surveilance and antagonism and just overwhelming emotional group interplay, they're telling him things like "Your parents don't want you any more, that's why you're here." Every kid suspects that whenever they're at odds with their family. And, in that state of mind, he believes it without question.
Did you say there's a tendency toward suicide in your family? There's no worse thing you could do than to expose your son to this particular type of treatment. Suicide rates among former clients, including graduates and staff, runs around 100 times (one hundred times... no typo) the national average.
Cheeky, you will find yourself. Your self never left, it's just that you were trained to reject you. No life is without some sorrow, but it'll be alright, I promise.
Post by: velvet2000 on December 01, 2001, 03:13:20 PM
I've probably said this before here, but talking to your kid, loving him and supporting him is the best solution in the long run. You want to force your son to change right now dramatically because you're scared for him. That's understandable, but wanting and actually trying to force him to do it are two different things. If he died out there, you would miss him but know that you were the best parents you could be. If he doesn't die in a straight based program, you will live with the knowledge that you exposed him to torture and pretended that you didn't.
Once again, as myself and many others have said, I was not beaten, I was not belt looped, I was not sleep deprived or starved. I was humiliated, insulted, manipulted, and denied the right to be myself. Going through an experience like that during your youth is much harder to recover from becuase you are still emotionally developing, than it is for adults who also are torn over cults like this.
I once started my own program that helped youth who were far into addiction. It was non confrontational, you could come and go as you pleased, there wasn't even any counseling, kids could just talk to kids. The only real rule is that the kids had all the power and anyone who judged or broke confedientiality would be dismissed. The result was an extremely succesful program where most kids changed quickly and were able to move on to better things. My point is that tough love doesn't work. Actual unconditional love does.
Post by: Kathy on December 01, 2001, 01:00:05 PM
Did you check out the police report. Alot more rape goes on in the program than what is reported.... I'm sure the Naked Crusader still lives at GT.... For your son's sake, I hope it/he doesn't. I'll pray for you and your son.
Post by: ramprato on December 02, 2001, 02:58:08 AM
I've given out to you till I'm blue in the face Pablo, you don't listen, you just brush aside everything that is said to you. You try to "convince" us all that what you are doing to your kid is right. I sometimes wonder if you are really just trying to convince yourself that you think you right or why else would continue to keep coming back here all these weeks later. Remember now, we are the "screw-ups" according to GT, why do you still want to hang around here anyway?, you obviously got it all figured out. You run a good business, make good money, you must think of yourself as such a "success", so what could we possibly tell you that you don't already know? If your looking for some kind of guarantee that your choice was right, your not going to find it here.....People here went through 20 years ago what your son is experiencing NOW, and I don't think you are seeing too many good results from our experiences Pablo. So why Pablo do you keep coming back?
Post by: 2dogs2 on December 01, 2001, 11:58:33 PM
Hey man!!! I'm just gonna bit my lip. But before I do... I just want to tell you that the suggestions you were given,("Talk to him", Unconditional love) do work. In fact they aren't supposed to be "tactics. You should have been applying them to your son all along. Shoulda, coulda ,woulda....
I know things are seeming so much better now. They are better , your kid is safe and he is learning some respect and all that.... But , later (since there is no talking you out of it) when your kid starts telling you and other people things that totally conflict with your own (and his) version of how things really were, listen to him and accept it because if you tell him he's crazy you will be right back where you started...probably worse. You are going to see. That is a fact. When is the question, and at what cost.
I would also give you this challenge: Find me one person a year after G.T. who thinks they truly needed what they recieved there. I'm not talking about the ones who are still envolved in the program. Good luck........Dogs
Post by: FaceKhan on December 02, 2001, 12:34:36 AM
Pablo, you were never looking for information, you were looking for someone to sympathize and validate your fears and concerns. That is what GT does for you. They make you feel as if you are doing the right thing. The problem is that while you are being supported your son is being warehoused and tormented to keep you from knowing the truth and to keep the money coming in. You are a new and naive member of a cult and your son is the only one that you will believe who will give you the truth and that is why he is kept from you and that is why you are told from the beginning that when and if he complains that your are not supposed to believe him. Smart, successful, loving people can be duped by cults like GT, if you were not smart, successful and loving, you would not be of interest to GT. They play off your ego, and your rectitude and your love of your son to get your money and initiate you into their twisted belief system.
I am 18 and I have many friends who have been way into all sorts of drugs. They stole from parents to support their habits (although they were not addicted they just wanted to get high) and they were high, drunk, stoned, tripping, rolling, or shrooming for a long time. By every common misconception about drug use and abuse, by the word of every cop and health teacher, and drug war zealot, a lot of them should be dead by now. But they are not. In fact in the last few months, most of the people I know who were the most heavily into drugs have cleaned up totally, because they began to realize that they can't handle it, that even though they are not chemically addicted they needed it to get through their day and the rest of their lives were on hold. My friend "J" who has probably been drunk or stoned from middle school to the end of highschool has quit everything, even ciggarrettes in the last six months. He swore off the harder stuff months ago, and then quit weed and ciggarretes this month. At first it was almost uncomfortable to me, because unlike many of them I never got into to most drugs and I almost never drink, and so when they said we were quiting I was
One of them was court ordered to rehab recently but that was because he failed drug tests while on a probation for a DUI but none of the others had ever been arrested or gotten in trouble for anything.
For me, I never had a habit to quit. I did one thing occassionally when I felt like doing it and since it was so infrequently I never felt any of the possible negative effects.
"There is always choice. We say there is no choice only to comfort ourselves with the decision we have already made. If you understand that, there's hope. If not .."
Slavish discipline makes a slavish temper... If severity carry'd to the
highest pitch does prevail, and works a cure upon the present unruly
distemper, it often brings in the room of it a worse and more dangerous
disease, by breaking the mind; and then, in the place of a disorderly young
fellow, you have a low spirited moap'd creature, who, however with his
unnatural sobriety he may please silly people, who commend tame unactive
children, because they make no noise, nor give them any trouble; yet at
last, will probably prove as uncomfortable a thing to his friends, as he
will be all his life an useless thing to himself and others... Beating them,
and all other sorts of slavish and corporal punishments, are not the
discipline fit to be used in the education of those we would have wise,
good, and ingenuous men...
John Locke, 1692
Post by: Blopa on October 01, 2001, 07:10:19 PM
I am a parent of a teenage boy that abused every drug, was kicked out of school, stealed from us repeatedly and got in trouble with the police for minor ofenses. He had a very defiant attitutde with us also. As he kept failing drug tests and all the warnings and consequences did very little to improve his behavior or stop his growing, daily drug use, I sent him to Growing Together. I am interested in information about this place and program as I love my son and want to help him and not harm him. I will appreciate any factual info anybody can provide me.
Thanks!
Post by: ramprato on October 01, 2001, 01:28:50 PM
Thank you for writing,
I hope you have had the chance to see the police report about Growing Together at the following link. Its contents concern a sex abuse charge. Scroll down a bit over halfway down and look for the heading "Sex abuse and rights of children in Florida rehab programs", there are 5 further links concerning that police report. I hope that tells you something about Growing Together that the ones running it didn't want you to know. I would implore you to MAKE yourself find other options for your troubled kid. These people are not the answer, don't let them sucker you in anymore saying to you they are it, the only ones that can "help" you kid. The methods they use to "fix" your kid require extreme mental abuse him leaving him shell shocked with lifetime nightmares and perinea, and falsely guilt-ridden for life, you will take what ever problem there was with him before and only add more to his already long list.
Growing together is just a spin-off of Straight Inc., with a new name. Please read up on it at
Post by: Antigen on December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM
Greetings Blopa, and welcome,
We don't hear much, either good or bad, out of Growing Together these days. Here are some
We know that the folks at GT are paying close attention to what we're doing. But they're not talking to us at all. Ususally, when we focus on one of these places, at least a few people will respond either in support of the place or with complaints. That hasn't happened with GT at all so far. The
If I were you, I'd absolutely insist on direct and frequent contact with my son. That's almost an acid test. Anyone tells you that it's therapeutic to isolate an adolescent, even from his mother, is hiding something. Odds are they're hiding the same things they were hiding under the names Straight and LIFE.
You know the old joke:
"How many shrinks does it take to change a lightbulb?"
"Only one, but the lightbulb has to want to change."
That's not completely correct. You can force someone to change against their own will by breaking their will. That is the core method of the Program if GT is still working the same way. And, again, not one soul has come along to suggest otherwise.
So I can't give you absolute proof that GT is still abusing kids. But I can't give you any assurance that they're not, either. Because of what I know about GT's lineage, that's one of the last places on Earth I'd put anyone I love.
If you wander around some of these forums, you'll find that most of us regard this type of high-pressure, confrontational group therapy as worthless and harmful. Even among those who regard their experience as having been helpful most of them attribute that to simply having been removed from a bad situation; change of set and setting.
If you're not able to contact your son without withdrawing him from the Program, withdraw him. Take him camping, on a tour of france, walk the AT or something. Give him a change of setting, more time to think, less opportunity to go wrong for awhile.
And do let us know how it goes.
Post by: FaceKhan on October 01, 2001, 04:22:19 PM
I had not read the earlier post before my response in the other topic.
Definitely get him out, in fact don't send him to any program in Florida or Texas, because the Bush's faith-based initiatives have made the teen rehab ( brainwashing and abuse) industry in those states virtually self-regulating which means that the school administrators many of them religious extremists set their own policies and state child welfare agencies cannot even inspect them anymore.
Post by: Blopa on October 01, 2001, 04:38:51 PM
I started this Topic asking for 'factual' info about GT. The fact that one kid once accused them of abuse does not appear to be conclusive that anything bad actually happens there. You see, we did not take my son there simply to get him out of our lives, we went to GT desperate looking for a solution, after other programs gave up on him. My son has been there for only a month and I saw things that I frankly do not understand (some really look ridiculous) but they do not seem 'bad' per se. I just read so much criticism (some very, very heavy) about these programs, that it made me wonder and I am seeking more informatioin. I wish I could also hear from 'success stories', of 7 stepers that completed and graduated the programs, but I don't know where to find them. I don't condone any form of humiliation, torture of brainwashing. Now: how do you deal (successfully) with the problems of drug use, terrible behavior, law breaking, lack of motivation, liying, stealing, etc.? Does anybody have an alternative that actually works? Sorry to ask, but, do we hear in this forum just the voices of people that failed in the program and are resentful as a result? I read hear some truly hear drenching stories that I am sure are legitimate and honest experiences of many; are there success stories to? How are the lifes of those that left those programs in disgust? Are you OK now, drug and crime free, etc.? If my questions seem to naive I am sorry, I am truly tring to find a solution for my son (an mine) problem. I am not a prude, moralist, or any crap like that, but I do have to address my son's problems with a realistic solution that will work. I appreciate any help anyone can give us.
Post by: Antigen on October 01, 2001, 07:34:26 PM
Check again, please. I gave you a link to some old news items that tell the tale of successful lawsuits and Ken (who was a proud graduate of Straight, Cincinatti for some years) gave you some info on a more recent criminal conviction (not just an allegation, a conviction... though in my opinion it landed on the wrong party)
No, we're not all a bunch of program failures. When I left Straight, Sarasota in `82 I was on 5th phase, pretraining for staff. Many, if not most of the people who post to this forum are graduates and/or former staff or parents. Most of us are doing alright, though a few have come through here who aren't alright at all.
There are very real and sometimes longterm side effects from the isolation, humiliation and pressure tactic used in these programs. If you're not comfortable with the way they're treating the parents, please know that your son is getting it in spades and has no escape, not even a moment of privacy to reflect.
Right now, you have more factual information about what's going on at GT right now than any of us. Not to put too fine a point on it, I know you're in a tough situation and trying your best to do what's right, but I'd like for you to examine the way you're staging the question.
Apparently you're unable to speak with your son or you wouldn't be asking strangers what's going on inside GT. Is that correct? And, instead of asking if any of us have any reason to believe you should be concerned, you seem to be asking whether or not any of us has absolute proof that something is wrong.
In essence, you've turned your son over to total strangers; never even having met with anyone who's completed the program; you don't seem to have any reason to believe that they're not abusing him and you do have ample reason to believe that these same people have abused children in the past.
Mm. or sir, I cannot give you absolute proof that they're doing bad things to your son in there. But I'd get him the hell out of there if I were you just on what you've got so far.
As for what to do next, almost anything is better than abandonment. I know you don't see it that way. The Program staff is probably giving you all kinds of strokes for being such a good parent, paying all the money, attending meetings, dealing with the anguish of not being able to see your son or know that he's safe.
But if GT today is anything at all like they were in the past and like all of the other programs run by the same affiliated people (and I have no reason to believe otherwise), they're telling him just exactly that; your parents don't want you or they wouldn't have brought you here, they wouldn't believe you even if you did tell them what we're doing to you. This is very often true. I'd bet dollars to donoughts they're telling you that you aren't capable of knowing whether or not your son, who you've known and loved all these years, is lying to you. They tell you they have 'special awareness' in dealing with teenagers (asif teenagers were some kind of wild animal and not just young people) and that only they can determine when he's telling the truth. (i.e. when he breaks down and supports their story on any particular point)
All of these bad behaviors you attribute to your son are very definitely cause for concern. But none of them are new to this generation. What did people do with wayward kids for the past couple of hundred generations? Send them to a different environment (boarding school, rural relatives, whatever); keep them busy with various activities; encourage them to do something better, different; let them fall down (but don't cause them to!) and then be there to support them and give direction when they realize they've messed up and ask for help....
There is no simple solution to raising kids no matter how much money and commitment the Program coaxes out of you. If things seem fishy to you for some reason after a month, trust your gut. Like so many other kids, your son will probably learn from his mistakes and outgrow his wild ways even without any help. But it's a lot easier to get situated in life when you have family to depend on.
Post by: Elle on October 02, 2001, 12:03:23 AM
In my opinion, even if it was an allegation, parents need to be weary of what a treatment center did that was so bad, it made a youth report go to such lengths of lying to the athorities.
Since leaving the abusive center I was in, I've gone on to accomplish plenty of great things, and am not on drugs. However, I am very bitter against abusive centers and cults, because of the pain that has been caused to me.
The defiancy in your teen may one day be his greatest quality. Love the fact that he's got determination and individuality, even if he may be aiming it in the wrong directions.
Good luck,
Elle.
Post by: ramprato on October 01, 2001, 03:10:27 PM
Ok, like Ginger was saying I was in Straight Cincinnati, I was put in there 19 years ago Oct 16th, 1982, a year or so before junior was born and I haven't had a substance since. I "graduated" from there and went on with my life trial and error like everybody else. The only difference was that I was contacted by a former Straight Parent whose kid got abused terribly and will have to be in special care for the rest of his life because of the type of "therapy" he received.
This man did his homework and educated me how Straight Inc. and its spin-offs destroyed thousands of families and made millions at it. I already provided you with his link in my last post to you, I will add that everything he wrote down in that website can be backed up with legitimate sources. I found out by reading up on all these sites that I was experiencing PTSD in the ways of nightmares, flashbacks, depression, and unnecessary guilt for starts. I blamed myself for everything that was ever wrong with my family. That's is what those so-called "therapeutic" places teach. They make YOU the parent faultless and stick all the blame in the world on your kid. That's a hell of an incentive to keep your kid there. They tell you your kid is manipulative and label him a "druggie", when all the time they are the true manipulators and have had literally 30 years in its current state to perfect to work the most to their advantage.
In one ear and out the other??? Now frankly, I don't suffer one bit no matter what you decide to do, the damage done to me all those years ago is done, I am only doing this for your kid, trying to save at least one person from experiencing what I did by simply telling you the truth. Verbal abuse is the worst form, your kid can not have any privacy and therefore can not escape it, because it is drilled in him from the early morning when he wakes up, till late at night when he goes to bed, no brakes from it ever, this is BRAINWASHING. They will tell him how worthless he is, how he screwed everybody over. Over and over again he will hear these statements they continually made in his mind until he actually believes it himself. he will lose reasoning ability because of this, you will become blameless and he will become blameful in his mind. Essentially you are allowing them to intervene in his natural ability to make mistakes on his own and learn from them as part of becoming an adult. If you allow them to manipulate you daily (as they will do) to keep you kid in there telling you he will be dead without them, then that's on you, consider yourself warned, you have to live with falling prey to their manipulation of your family situation, and you have to live with the decision you make of what you do about it, not me.
How are those parent group discussions these days? I agree with Ginger, I bet they are leaving you alone now, just give it a little time, soon you will be confronted for even questioning them at GT by having the audacity to talk to us heathens. I think your trying to make yourself "right" no matter what you came on telling us all these things wrong with your son, nothing about what was wrong with you, or others in your family that contributed to dysfunction, it was ALL him, Ok, sure.
If I seem impassioned about this topic, good, I have seen a lot in these last 19 years most of those who were on staff telling me what to do without question are back using drugs, so much for that once boasted 75% success rate they were promoting all those years ago. Some are dead. Some are getting along OK, but are in therapy, wonder why they need therapy? Some are drinking, some aren't, a lot still believe they have drug problems, maybe some really did, but does that mean that everybody that went in there had a "problem", or were the majority of people in there from upper income families that afford to be there and pay the high price.
Oh yeah, why don't I use? I take a bit of medicine now and then and a good adult decision would be not to use any substance while taking medicine, you want the best healing advantage you can get, so how about that, an adult choice has been made without the "help" of Straight Inc., or GT.
Post by: 2dogs2 on October 01, 2001, 04:10:33 AM
Hey if you are looking to keep your kid off drugs for a while ,you have got him somewhere where he can't get any. Good. Now are you prepared to to see your child with problems for the rest of his life! They may not be very big problems but he will have some, Even now the damage is being done. Or they could be huge problems, some former clients of "Straight based" programs have commited suicide because they could not get this crap out of there heads. I , myself was there once.
I graduated from Straight Inc. in Dec. 1987 and it was one of the proudest days of my life. I hugged my Mom and Dad and brothers and sister. And set out on my new life that was going to take me so far.........
It was only a couple of days after I got out that I started getting scared. Everybody in the "real" world was saying and doing things that I couldn't understand. 'Bad "things. Even other people that were clean & sober. I was all alone. The only people that I could talk to were inside and I was not aloud to see them anymore.
You see , This type of theropy takes away all reality and I mean all of it. And replaces it with a "group conscience". It really works for most. For people , like your son, who have a twisted sense of reality , it will replace that with a bunch of crap that works great inside the program for moving along sucsessfully and feeling good(?). He will probably even tell you he likes it and believe it himself, I did. But none of these programs ever explain to their clients that when they get out that all of the stuff they have learned is worthless on the outside when there IS no group!
No offense but you sound like you too are struggling with a little something. Maybe all your kid needs is to know that it's not his fault. You probably screwed your kid up ,you probably alread know this but if you got your kid out and told him how you feel about this (failing as a parent) he may not need another bit of help ...ever! I'm really not trying to be mean by saying this. I wish this could have been the story with me. First word is the only one that is hard to say , the rest are easy. One word.
If you get him out you should skip town right from the place and got somewhere where there are NO distractions. I hope this helps. I don't claim to be right , This is just what I think.... Good luck, To both of you........2-dogs
Post by: LESTAT49203 on October 01, 2001, 10:13:33 PM
I had to chuckle to myself when I read that part of your post that said you wanted to hear the success storyies from the 7 Steppers, or maybe Staff from Straight. Sorry but I don't think there are very many that will contribute there success to Straight. Thats what these guys have been trying to tell you all along. Well if it make's you feel better hearing it from a 7 Stepped Staff member of the old program than here it goes. I was molded and twisted by the program, just like everyone else is trying to describe. We all were forced threw countless nights of sleep deprivation, so called postive peer pressure which consisted of restraining clients on the floor till they went along with the program's rules. etc. etc. I never was able to take a good look at it till after I left staff to get married. It was then I was able to sit back and take a good long look at what had actualy happened to me while I was there. And what was happening to others still. If you want an honest opinion from someone that was there, Straight, and Straight like programs have always been very abusive. Read some of the stories on this board if you realy want to know what those place's are like. I haven't seen one lie or exageration on it the whole time Ive been here. Sorry I dont know of any better treatment for your boy. I know its a hard place to be in. I would suggest letting him take his lumps as a young adolesent, rather than put him in a place like that. Everyone of us still ended up having to take our lumps anyway once we got out and had to start dealing with the real world again. Don't send him to a mental prison to keep him from going to jail. Cincy84
Post by: Blopa on October 01, 2001, 10:09:28 AM
Thank you all for your info, comments and concerns regarding the issue I brought up. I believe you and know that you have been traumatized and abused by those programs. Since I posted the initial message I did quite a bit of research into the specific program where my son is. There are many differences between what you honestly describe and GT and I think I made the mistake of 'guessing' early on that GT was a Straight or Straight-like program. I had the chance to talk to my son one on one and all his complaints where that he is not allowed to smoke cigarettes, that he does not like the food (he put 15 pounds and 2 pants sizes), that one night he was not allowed to bathe and wash his clothes because his oldcomer was tired and that he had no privacy while on the bathroom. He did not complaint of being sat on, being deprived of sleep, put on pbj diets, insulted and humiliated or any of the abuses I see reported on these postings. I spent time in one of the foster houses with 3 clients and their 'parents' and I saw first hand how they all related, I had time to play boardgames and chat at length with the clients. The kids had at all times the right to use the phone and call police if they wanted to, the program bedroom had an alarm but not a lock as they were not locked in. They had a very good second full meal (as the first dinner was served to them at GT before departing). I am not making this up, I have no affiliation or interest whatsoever in defending TG, this is the true observations that we (my wife and I) made. I avoid mentioning here that I actually 'like' a lot of the parents and staff as it is a very subjective and personal taste and I could be mislead by it. Again, maybe my mistake was to believe that this program was similar to what you all suffer through, but it does not look that way. If I ever get a different impression or experience I will post it as I can't possible condone abuse of any kind. Also GT has been open for over 15 years and presumably hundreds if not thousands of kids: we would see a lot more bad rap about 'them' in the net. I looked hard and all I saw was the opinion of one judge and one psychologist, nothing more. Compare that with all the postings here relating to these other places. At this point most everything I saw and heard about GT (not Straight) tells me that this is a good program and they do not torture or abuse kids in any way. I don't doubt that your experiences are real but they relate to other programs as far as I can tell, not GT. That is my believe at this point, if anything changes I will make sure I come back. Thank you all very much for your help and interest.
Edited by: Blopa at: 10/21/01 7:15:52 am
Post by: ramprato on October 01, 2001, 12:50:47 PM
"I believe you and know that you have been traumatized and abused by those programs", Those programs?, um those programs you refer to are the pre-GT:
(Look carefully, you will see "Growing Together" on this chart how it was formed from Straight Inc.)
"GT has been open for over 15 years and presumably hundreds if not thousands of kids: we would see a lot more bad rap about 'them' in the net. I looked hard and all I saw was the opinion of one judge and one psychologist, nothing more." My God, what do you need to get this?, an atom bomb to drop on your head, they have been to the courts for ABUSE, a leopard doesn't change its spots, it just pays off its accusers. They, like Straight settled out of court in order to stay open and continue RAPING MINDS for profit. 15 years ago, Straight started closing down their centers across the country, the process took about 5 years, they were close down for what? ABUSE. But there was money to be made so individuals formerly involved with Straight, reopened up with different names using the same MIND RAPIST tactics.
Do you think we are PAID to be here giving out to you like this? This is a place for us, that were abused to get together and finally be able to talk about it amongst ourselves, and during all this, we come to realize that these places still exist, and we want to save each and every kid out there from experiencing what we did so they can at least attempt to grow from their experiences without having their minds turned to JELLY.
Blinders still on I see. That's OK, become guiltless, walk on water, that makes it easier, let that poor kid take the blame for everything and see what you get out of a son in 15 or 20 years, So he isn't perfect, he yells back, he boozes with friends or whatever, did you ever think he was just trying to reach out in his own way??? You obviously have a couple of bucks, money can even buy your kid a drug problem, what a country! Too bad now that your kid is behind a kind of Berlin wall where you are unable to communicate when you and him need it most...
When you get a shell shocked son back, here is a note of encouragement, he will always have these websites to come to, thank you for helping to turn out a new generation of Stefford Zombies.....Think about it please.
Post by: LESTAT49203 on October 01, 2001, 04:03:53 PM
For your son's sake, I hope your right. Best of luck to both of you.
Post by: Antigen on October 01, 2001, 04:20:16 PM
Up until a couple of years ago, there wasn't anything permanent, indepth or well used on the net about Straight, Inc. This in spite of the many lawsuites, investigations, books and so forth.
Now, all of a sudden, there are sites springing up all over the place. And if you look into the material on the nature of thought reform, you'll find that it takes just about 15 years for most people to 'snap' out of it completely.
I'll tell ya'll a little secret. I called GT posing as a parent concerned about a troubled teen. They actually said 'we have a lot of experience dealing with teenagers. They can't manipulate us like they can their parents, we know just how they think.'
But just remember, only 4 years ago a young boy was gang raped by a group of other boys in a foster home during a hazing ritual called 'the Naked Crusader.' I have to wonder if that's still going on. And, not to put too fine a point on it, but under Florida law, if you have cause to
If you really believe that dog and pony show, I guess you'll fall for anything. Good luck and I pray for your son and all the other kids in Group.
Post by: Elle on October 02, 2001, 02:54:29 AM
Some places are more calmed down than The Straights or Kids of America, so it really is harder for parents to see what their kid is going through. The place that I was in (Alberta Adolecent Recovery Centre) is a Straight spin off. We learned very quickly how to make the parents think that we are doing okay, because if we didn't we would be in quite a bit of trouble, and only kept there for one more week at least. Physical abuse and restraining didn't happen during open meetings where everyone could see. They didn't happen every day. The thing is, that even if they didn't happen at all, those things are the least harmful bit. It's the programming of your mind in order to become more pleasing to society that kills you. Having to make emotional or sexual confessions in order to see yourself as sick, in order to make you think you have to behave as the others in order to recover. Not allowing time alone is a form of abuse. It is one of the key ingredients for brain washing. Those group or "rap" sessions that all of us had gone through are extremely popular in cults. They look like modern day therapy, but in excess they become ways to achieve altered states.
No, there shouldn't be more reports just because it's been open for so long. One reason for that, because kids feel ashamed. They don't know if they really are bad kids for disagreeing, because in the center they weren't allowed to disagree.
Another reason is that usually these centres make friends with Judges, make friends with the police, make friends with social services, make friends with all the other resources available where kids could turn too. Trust me, I have been trying to get my story heard for years now. Some people don't want the centre taken away because it succesfully gets rid of kids who have been in and out of prison, and others won't help because they are afraid of the controversy. I know of many peopel with the authority to close the place down who are aware of sexual, physical, and emotional abuse, but they won't do it.
There are plenty of treatment centres out there where you can sit down with yoru son and talk for a few hours a week, and where he can have intense positive therapy. Not all relaxed treatment centres aren't doing there job.
Elle.
Post by: Antigen on October 01, 2001, 01:25:29 PM
Ya' know, this reminds me of the sad tale of my dearly departed great uncle Joe. It was just prior to prohibition and he had a job cleaning up at the brewery. One day, he fell into a full beer vat. Uncle Jim and Uncle Thom were there. They dove in and tried to fish him out, but he fought `em off and subsequently drowned.
Blopa, I heard it through the grape vine that you have far more concrete evidence of abuse than just the Program's lineage. If you fail to protect your son at this point, there's no going back. He may forgive you one day, but he'll never ever trust you again.
Post by: Blopa on October 01, 2001, 02:42:52 PM
Thank you very much all for your interest in helping my son and I. I am not in anyway downplaying what you been through (and still are) and I know you do not have any secret agenda as you have nothing to win or lose by sharing on your traumatic experience. After clearly establishing that I will discuss the present situation that started this Topic. The first thing that comes to mind is that several of the most openly troubling practices of Straight are absent on the practice at GT: special diet, food and sleep deprivation, isolation (not access to Children and Family or police by phone), kids locked with key on bedrooms. Those I know to be true as I saw first hand while fostering out (visiting host family houses with the kids there). Other things I was told by kids and parents is that they do not sit on kids, they are never locked alone, they are not insulted, spited at or humiliated screaming at their faces, etc.
Another issue, central to the big picture, is the brain washing. In principle, I am personally against all forms of brain washing. The caveat is that my son (and probably most people with self-destructive behavior) have already been brain washed and that is why they are actively seeking to kill themselves (and others) by abusing drugs, breathing AC gases (freon?) and other toxics that are known to destroy brain cells and terminate their lives at different paces. Or by driving at very fast speed while high or drunk, etc.
So the starting point of this treatment is not a happy Kids that is having a safe life. We started with a kid that was way on his way to kill himself and maybe others. We did not chose to disrupt a life, our aim is to get him to stop killing himself. Now, it is not an easy job to have someone abandon his most precious and valued beliefs: the entire drug culture, self mutilation and destruction, complete contempt for all the rules (right or wrong) that make his existence in the community possible, his absolute repudiation for any advice or even possibility of having a normal life (work, earn a living, stay sober and do whatever you chose to do with your life within the boundaries of the law).
How do you change all that without washing the Kid's mind? I am speaking from my mind and for myself as no one in any of the treatment centers we visited (including GT) ever admitting to resorting to brain washing. But I think that some sort of serious re-programming of the mind (aka brain washing) would have to take place to make such a radical change in someone concepts, thinking process, feeling process, etc. I know that simply talking to that person does not suffice. We tried that, we used psychologists, psychiatrists, medication, outpatient therapy, church, gifts, contracts, treats, you names. While doing all these, our son kept running in the opposite direction at an increased speed, doing more drugs, hanging out with very dangerous characters, getting in fights, cursing and screaming at us, breaking things, closing his mind more and more.
I do not think that we could just sit on the side hoping that he will get better by himself, as he was going to kill himself, possible others including us. It was impossible to talk with him about anything. He was deeply sad, even suicidal. He was stealing from us. This is the scene in most homes of troubled teenagers of the other parents we spoke with. So, with all honesty, what is there to do for a parent in this predicament? Is easy to blame the medicine at hand, but is there any other REALISTIC medicine? As ugly as it sounds, I think that you have to de-program and re-program the patient's mind to get them out of that rut. It sounds horrible, but what is the REALISTIC alternative. The person in on an accelerated path of self-destruction as thousands do die every year from this disease, drug abuse, suicide, etc. Talking won't do it since he would not listen, therapy as outpatient did not work either. Eckerd Youth Alternatives worked, but for a year or so. COPAC threw him out. La Amistad was a mad-house that he hated. South Miami Drug Rehab Center could not work with him. What else to try? Do I give up on him? And he is not seating still waiting for us to find a good solution, he is trying to kill himself with the drug use, etc. while we think and consider the alternatives. What will you do in such a case?
He will have to unlearn a lot of crap he learned, change his taste in music, friends, thought process, motivation, decency, etc. How in the world do you achieve all that?
I wish there was a pill he could take and get well, a book he could read or some magic words that someone can spell and make such fundamental changes as he needs to make to stay alive. Short of that, I think that some serious reprogramming of the mind would have to take place and I am surely no expert to judge and decide what it would entail. In the meantime I am glad he is safe and seems to be making progress.
Worse case, if he survives this treatment and will take him (as you say) 15 years to get right again, that implies that we will be alive 15 years from now, and that is good news. It certainly beats the alternative.
Those are my considerations at this time.
Regarding allegations of abuse (I just read your posting), no, I do not have anything more than allegations and it will be very easy to convince me otherwise: I you know any case that resulted on a conviction against GT, and you care to, please give me the case number, decision on the case, judge,etc. I will research such case/cases. So far I found none.
Thanks again.
Edited by: Blopa at: 10/22/01 1:08:34 pm
Post by: ramprato on December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM
Those people that run GT prey on people like you. It's not because you're such a nice guy, it's not because they have a genuine concern for your kid, You have a couple of dollars in the bank and that' all they want, MONEY plain and simple. Look around the room at GT, and what do you see, you don't see kids from the SLUMS do you??
The majority of us that post here and on the other sites came from upper middle income backgrounds, that's who these Straight-like places target people with MONEY.
Here's a quote from you I found particularly special:
"I think that some sort of serious re-programming of the mind (aka brain washing) would have to take place to make such a radical change in someoneâ??s concepts, thinking process, feeling process, etc."
That to me that is plain disgusting, to read such garbage. Oh yes, it's OK as long as it's happening to somebody else and not yourself, hell, for that matter, it's OK even if it's your own kid, just throw him into the hands of complete strangers you've never met before and walk away??,well think again ace. Your child is your most precious resource and YOU have been given a RARE opportunity, an opportunity that most of our parents 20 years ago would of begged to have if it were available to them, a chance to talk to 20 year survivors of MIND RAPE MILLS such as GT who have given their very heart and sole to you about the aftereffects of untold pain caused by brainwashing. People like us who have had time to research these sickos, know their game, and all the steps they took along the way for some 30 years to perfect their scam on people like you, it amazes the @#%$ right out of me that you would trust them over us, I'm shaking my head right now in complete disbelief. I know guys, I shouldn't be, I realize we've only been exposing these bastards for a year or so now.
Just taking a stab here, did you ever read up on communist re-education camps?? They use the same sick MIND RAPING tactics in those camps, where do you think the brainwashing kids concept was "barrowed" from. I'm sure were also soon going to find out that this is how the kids in poor middle eastern families are recruited and "educated" to hate Americans, it's just a matter of time before this all comes out and makes the headlines, I'm sure then that you won't mind being the poster-dad advocating brainwashing centers for anything YOU perceive wrong with kids. Did YOU ever go through adolescence, were you ever defiant to your parents, EVER?? How did they correct you? Did they entrust you to strangers?, careful now, your halo is slipping.
Here's a good one from you:
"Worse case, if he survives this treatment and will take him (as you say) 15 years to get â??rightâ?? again, that implies that we will be alive 15 years from now, and that is good news. It certainly beats the alternative."
I think if I were able to turn back the clock, I would of rather find another way of dealing with whatever issues there were at the time concerning my adolescence. Sure, to the outside world, I am a "success", but why the hell is it that when the internet was introduced to this world did I find myself on it advocating the humane treatment of kids and exposing sick MIND RAPE MILLS such as YOUR kid is in??? hmmm? Must be for my health, my emotional health.
Now try to remember these next words I ought to send a recommendation to the AD Council for a public service announcement:
A MIND IS A TERRIBLE THING TO RAPE
Post by: Blopa on October 01, 2001, 04:23:21 PM
Ken, I do not doubt that what you describe is true to the program you 'attended' (Straight), but I clearly established some differences between what you and others describe as taking place in Straight that DOES NOT match what goes on on GT.
Do you know what goes on on GT?
You keep insisting (and you are right) of how horrible the practices of the place you know, are. But I am not talking about that place, since I have no direct knowledge of anything they did there. I am not talking about Straight.
I do see similarities. I also see fundamental differences precisely about the things I see you 'complaint' the most. Again, they do not lock people in isolation (alone or in groups), they do not sit on people hurting them, do do not deny anyone the use of the phone to call for help, they do not put them in ridiculous diets, they do not deprive them of food or sleep. All this differences I know first hand and that is why I can talk about it. They don't mean anything to you?
BTW you still do not offer an alternative treatement.
Ken, I am not interested in winning any argument with you, prove you wrong, etc. as I understand you are only trying to help me and my kid. It just surprises me that you refer to GT as if was a copy of Straight. You know Straight, you do not not GT and you ignore the differences I point out to you.
Post by: Antigen on October 01, 2001, 05:05:04 PM
That's how the thought reform process is described by some scholars. And that's what it feels like. Your previous post said it all and I was horrified by the implications of it.
You know they're brainwashing your son. Did you know they're brainwashing you more? Think for a minute. All of the behaviors you describe as suicidal are, though troubleing, within the range of normal teen rebellion. Driving fast? That's a thrill for some kids, especially boys. Using illicit drugs? 70% of the adult population, dear, including your medical care professionals, your legal people, teachers, bus drivers, cops... you name it. Are they all suicidal? Do they all need to be thought reformed?
Deliberately carving on one's skin is NOT typical teen rebellion. Psyche guidelines usually associate sexual trauma with self mutilation.
Again, was he carving before you put him in the Program?
You keep asking for absolute proof of certain specific methods of abuse, otherwise you will not act to protect your son. If I found out that a neighbor might be a child abuser, I would
Once again, let me remind you that in the State of Florida, if you suspect child abuse you have a legal obligation to report it or at least to intervene on behalf of the child. A few years ago, a mother went to prison on a homocide charge because she forced her teenaged daughter to work in a strip club. The girl was so humiliated by the experience that she killed herself. At this point, you probably don't care enough about your son to intervene on his behalf. But you might want to think carefully about any criminal investigations that might arise should it turn out that they are hurting children there at GT.
Post by: ramprato on October 01, 2001, 05:15:47 PM
"BTW you still do not offer an alternative treatment."
My God, everything you have been told by all of us, and you still refer to that place as "treatment".
Why don't you try NOT locking him away from you, and talk to him instead of entrusting him to complete strangers for starts, sounds like he has had a smorgasbord of places to help "fix" him in his short 17 years of life, what the hell about you?, has he had YOU to talk to yet? or did that go to off to the side while you were piling up all the money? Go into family counseling, study the end affects of brainwashing and what survivors of brainwashing go through day to day because you're going to need the information to deal with you own kid's Post Traumatic Stress Disorder that you and GT have introduced to him. You might find a good therapist for him and you for that matter, one that is familiar with Synanon based MIND RAPING methods because that's the new thing you got to add to the list on top of all the rest of juniors "ailments" boss.
Level with me, when you first started lurking our websites and posted your first message (listing off all these things he did), did you list your son's "problems" off the 20 questions pamphlet they gave you? Do you honestly think that the 20 questions thing started in GT, lol.
"Ken, I am not interested in winning any argument with you, prove you wrong, etc. as I understand you are only trying to help me and my kid. It just surprises me that you refer to GT as if was a copy of Straight. You know Straight, you do not not GT and you ignore the differences I point out to you."
Well you right there, I am actually genuinely concerned amazingly for someone I never even met that I know is being tortured up in his mind, this is getting real personal, I am speaking for somebody that can NOT speak for himself, YOUR son. Pay close attention now.......GT was born out of Straight and uses the same mind raping methods that straight used on all us all those years ago, savvy?
"You know Straight, you do not not GT and you ignore the differences I point out to you."
I think your saying I don't know GT, only Straight, wrong, I know the methods GT uses, I know that there were homosexual abuse charges brought up against GT in a police report that I bet they didn't tell you upon you admitting you child, and entrusting him to. I know that you yourself have said that he has NO privacy and I know that this is a main brainwashing tactic right there not to mention the sheer humiliation of it, (bathroom ect...)
You are fixed in your beliefs, there is NO stopping you, they have you "convinced" another dollar in the pot for them, another ruined human being. I would NEVER put my kid in a place like that under ANY circumstances, those people who run places like that ought to be jailed. Don't worry though, I, like everybody here will do what they can to expose these sickos with or without your help.
Post by: Anonymous on January 01, 2002, 03:09:00 PM
Would a dog by an other name still be a dog, and would a dog that has had a bath still be a dog, and would a dog that got itself a good set of lawyers and a good PR team still be a dog? Of course it would, and anyone who suggested otherwise would be called a fool. You are not a fool Blopa but you are certainly being played like one.
Facekhan
Post by: Antigen on January 01, 2002, 06:59:00 PM
Parents Back Program (http://fornits.com/anonanon/articles/200003/20000320-1.htm)
Post by: kaydeejaded on January 02, 2002, 02:01:00 AM
[ This Message was edited by: kaydeejaded on 2002-01-01 23:17 ]
[ This Message was edited by: kaydeejaded on 2002-01-01 23:19 ]
Post by: debi on April 30, 2002, 07:46:00 PM
I am a "successful" graduate of the Seed. I completed my 3 month program in 10 months after starting over 3 times because of things my parents did (ie keeping alcohol in home w/newcomers there, stopping at a liqour store w/newcomers in the car..)(1971-72 or maybe it was 72-73 oh so long ago, yet it seems like yesterday sometimes.)
I submit that you should do everything in your power to keep your child at home with you.
Find a counselor, spend time, seek out his thoughts and feelings about his life, try to find out what pain he is escaping from with his use of drugs...
I too am a parent of a teen (born '84), and I have worked his entire life to ensure that I always validated his feelings, supported his choices (friends, haircuts...), and as a result he speaks to me about things that he is feeling, about his friends and the choices they are making etc.
The anger and rage I felt toward my parents and the life they selected for me was with me for a very long time. Please do everything in your power to reach your son with your own feelings.
I have been sober for almost 22 years now,and raised my son in the rooms, I have no secrets from him.....he has certainly made better choices than I did at his age. Hopefully a counselor would help you to because a "person" vs a "parent" to your son's eyes...so that he can learn from your mistakes too.