Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Jimmy Cusick on December 17, 2004, 01:33:00 PM
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I read the post on the guy that killed himself and I found that very "heavy". I really feel sorry for the guy and his family. Years have gone by but that doesnt make it any less than a disaster.
This post is about my WORST seed memory. I've successfully hidden it amongst the cobwebs in my cerebral graymatter. It appeared today, kinda like the tasmanian devil as I read about the suicide of a seedling.
In the winter of 74-75 I was living with the O'Neil's, they were a family from Cleveland Heights and Had 2 kids in the seed in Florida (Chris and John). We lived in an apartment in Plantation. For reasons I dont remember Mrs. O'Neil, a newcomer named Mike and I were alone in the apartment getting prepared to go into the seed. I was in the bedroom while Mike was in the bathroom and I must have been psychic because I remember seeing in my mind a wrist slashed and a razor blade cutting arteries. A moment later I heard Mike scream and I went into the bathroom to see that He had slit both of his wrists and the bright red blood was pumping out all over the place. I called Mrs. O'Neil and we both stood there and freaked for a moment. Then we got handtowels and wrapped his wrists and put belts on to make turnaquets? I had blood all over me but time had slowed down and at age 16 I was in control of the situation telling Mrs. O'Neil to get her car so we could take him to the hospital
My next memory is several days later he came into the group at the seed, he had surgery on both wrists and had thick bandages on his arms. I also remember Libby talking to me, she told me to try not to get to upset that it wasnt my fault and she patted me on the back for helping to save the kids life.
I just cant remember what prompted the kid to do that , obviously he didnt like himself very much but I dont recall if he was in any trouble at home or in the seed to propel him into a suicide attempt. :smokin: :smokin: :wave:
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That's an awful story. Did he receive any counseling (professional, not Seed staff)? How did they 'treat' him?
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You JUST remembered that? At least as interesting to me is that you would have forgotten such a traumatic experience.
There is a story from the st pete seed where a girl attempted to slit her wrists in the seed bathroom because of the extreme mental duress she was under. She was told not to tell her parents because she had "put her mom thru enough already". Later she escaped and was so scared to go home for fear of being returned to the seed she lived in the woods for a week.
Oh yeah, she was 15 years old at the time.
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I had tried to do slit my wrist while on the front row. In my case it was because I was starting to really see the kind of person I had become before I came in the Seed. But instead of learning from my past I just wanted to hide everything and not have to change. Fortunately for me all I had was a safety razer so I couldn't do much. That was my turning point on the program. I starting really learning about myself and changing my life around. I finally felt at peace in my life and was for once in my life starting to feel happy. If I had not gone to the Seed I would definately have ended it all. This is why I truly appreciate being able to go to the Seed and learn so much about myself and how to love others and be able to help others as well.
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Interesting. If you are new anon, Welcome. Please consider choosing a user name and telling us a seed story!
You sure that was the reason you tried to slash your wrists so long ago.
Did you get pyshciatric care? Medical attention?
Were your parents notified?
holy crap, maybe this was more common than I thought....
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My oldcomer tried to kill himself right after he graduated his program. He hadn't gone back to using drugs or hanging with his old friends or any of the usual seed-defined behaviours that might have caused one on their program to get started over.
Instead of slashing his wrists, one night he simply veered his car into the left lane and into an oncoming truck. He readily admitted that this was no accident, bur rather an attempted suicide. Amazingly, he survived this head-on collision on a highway near miami.
I think this sort of thing is much more common than many might believe among seed graduates. Since it reflected badly upon the seed, such cases were not spoken of openly.
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On 2004-12-17 16:20:00, GregFL wrote:
holy crap, maybe this was more common than I thought...."
Ya think?? Many of us had problems before ever coming into the Seed and left carrying the same burdens we came in with. Yes, the Seed gave me the tools but it was up to me to utilize them...or not. I'm so sorry for those who left this planet in pain, not knowing they were loved and "one of us".
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You sure that was the reason you tried to slash your wrists so long ago.
Did you get pyshciatric care? Medical attention?
Were your parents notified?
holy crap, maybe this was more common than I thought....
I know that was the reason. It was in my mind at the time the easy way out. I would not have to admit to myself the kind of person that I had become. Like Robin stated this was a part of me way before I ever entered the Seed. They gave me the tools to change and it was up to me to do so.
I don't think my family found out abouth this happening of which I am glad. I did not require any medical attention. It was superficial.
I have had some tragedies in my life, but each time this is when I have learned alot and grown the most spriritually. I look at this as a learning experience in my life. I just thought that it might give others an insight into why someone may have done this.
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I think anytime you hear of anyone attempting suicide it's very disturbing. I personally never heard of these events but my xwife did attempt suicide before and after our marriage not durring. Actually after we were divorced she went back to college got a degree. Finished top of her class. Then attempted. I don't know all the details we are not in touch. I've tried she does not want contact. I agree with Robin If you have problems and don't take the help- believe me she was under major psychiatric care. I did meet with some of her doctors. The truth is some people do not want to get well. I'm sorry to say.
I wish her well but thats all I can do.
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there are more than a few St Pete seed graduates that died as obvious suicides or under questionable circumstances.
To the anon above, I am glad you were able to work thru it and we welcome your participation here. I do remember many people breaking off pieces of the wooden chairs and cutting their arms and/or wrists with them. Most often it resulted in a superficial wound...but not always. I remember one guy being come down on hard in bandages from it in St Pete.
The seed, if nothing more, had an obligation, a legal and moral obligation, to notify the parents of these suicide attempts so they could decide which direction to go. They never did to my best estimation.
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Greg, The reason that I didnt remember Mikey's attempted suicide is because of "repressed" memories. The dictionary defines repressed as: The rejection from conciousness of anything unpleasant. That can be sexual abuse as a child or combat experiences in a war or a suicide or attempted suicide concerning someone we know. For years I didnt believe in repressed memories as my sisters accused someone very close of abusing them when they were children but didnt remember that until adulthood. I spoke to a psychologist with a P.H.D. who stated that repressed memories are very real.
My memory was triggered by reading a post about a suicide. Mikey's attempted suicide was associated with that and it took a direct avenue into my conciousness
I dont remember what ever happened to Mikey. Did the seed insist that he see a shrink? Was he sent to a therapist? Did the surgery work to repair his tendons? Did he stay at the seed and work out his problems? In my 14 months and 17 days at the Florida seed I never remember hearing about or seeing a psychiatrist or psychologist. I dont know what happened to the kids with serious mental or emotional problems, I suspect they just dissappeared as I dont think that would be talked about in group
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No way in God's green Earth would Art ever recomend a shrink. Don't you remember the tirades against professional psychiatry?
Here's the thing, though. The Seed would take any teenager. Some Seedlings, especially younger brothers and sisters, landed on front row just for posession of a druggie attitude. Many kids landed up there because a Seedling, who had made their newcomer confession, had been a friend (so, naturally, that kid must be a druggie too seeing as how druggieness is such a highly contagious disease effecting 90% of all youth, right?)
So the typical Seed intake population was pretty representative of the broader population of kids. However, Seedlings and Straightlings have a rate of suicide attempts and success far and away higher than the general population. Every single suicide attempt I've ever heard of among people I've known personally was a Program client. Not one of my olddruggiefriends or their friends who had not gone through the Program has tried to kill themselves that I ever heard about.
Dude, I'm sorry you were so despondent that you tried to slit your wrists w/ a safety razor. And I can just imagine the come down rap afterward and how therapeutic that was for you. But I do not believe that you were driven to this kind of desperation by realizing the truth about yourself. I think the Programming got to ya. It happened to a lot of kids.
Know what Bobby DuPont used to tell reporters about it? He said that suicidal ideation was part of withdrawal from marijuana. What a fucking load! No, suicidal ideation is a possible consequence of isolation, sleep management, severe stress and extreme humiliation. Bobby DuPont knew this when he gave Art $1 Million+ to expand The Seed.
you Momma is a big fat's ________
--Leroy Brown
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On 2004-12-18 09:24:00, Antigen wrote:
"No way in God's green Earth would Art ever recomend a shrink. I TOTALLY AGREE
Not one of my olddruggiefriends or their friends who had not gone through the Program has tried to kill themselves that I ever heard about.
I think the Programming got to ya...What a fucking load!
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OK Ginge, let me give you a reality check and tell you about some of MY olddruggiefriends: Ed-18, (one of those perpetually happy people, that always offered his shoulder to cry on) found dead from asphyxiation sitting in his running VW parked in a closed garage; My ex-boyfriend, Paul-16 in Jr. High, straight A student, spoke Latin fluently (his 3rd language) - took so much acid over a period of time, he fried his brain. (I had previously broke up w/ him because he was spiraling down quickly) He was in and out of mental institutions and when I visited him at his mom?s house after I graduated Seed, he was but a shell of a person; Debbie-17, shot something into her arm that ?would finally end the pain? - it did; then there was Daryl-17, after raping a girl and having her boyfriend watch, fatally shot the two young lovers on Dunedin Beach one night ? serving time on death row unless he's already gone.
None of these kids were in the Seed - just me! and next month I'm going to be celebrating ANOTHER year on this planet...go figure.
DO NOT think your reality is everyones - it isn't.
Peace
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On 2004-12-18 16:47:00, Robin Martin wrote
OK Ginge, let me give you a reality check and tell you about some of MY olddruggiefriends: Ed-18, (one of those perpetually happy people, that always offered his shoulder to cry on) found dead from asphyxiation sitting in his running VW parked in a closed garage; My ex-boyfriend, Paul-16 in Jr. High, straight A student, spoke Latin fluently (his 3rd language) - took so much acid over a period of time, he fried his brain. (I had previously broke up w/ him because he was spiraling down quickly) He was in and out of mental institutions and when I visited him at his mom?s house after I graduated Seed, he was but a shell of a person; Debbie-17, shot something into her arm that ?would finally end the pain? - it did; then there was Daryl-17, after raping a girl and having her boyfriend watch, fatally shot the two young lovers on Dunedin Beach one night ? serving time on death row unless he's already gone.
None of these kids were in the Seed - just me! and next month I'm going to be celebrating ANOTHER year on this planet...go figure.
DO NOT think your reality is everyones - it isn't.
Peace"
Well, let's see. Here's the opposite side of that coin. Of the friends I hung out with before going in, all, I repeat...ALL are fairly successful, well adjusted, happy people. These were people that were all doing many more drugs than I would have dreamed of doing before going in. Somehow they made it through adolescense without benefit of any program. I, on the other hand, was considered a 'lightweight' before going in. How is it that I came out of there with so many problems/issues/PTSD and ended up more screwed up than I was before going in, but the people who I was told were going to die because they weren't as lucky as I was or as loved as I was, are fine?????
To borrow from you....DO NOT think your reality is everyones - it isn't.
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On 2004-12-18 17:51:00, Anonymous wrote: Somehow they made it through adolescense without benefit of any program.
NO DOUBT...but I wasn't one of them. All I'm saying is some of us needed it, many did not. I also believe it takes a strong spirit to be able to seek help and move on. Some of us are stronger than others...others are more sensative. We all handle difficult situations in our own unique way. I've had some very traumatic incidents over the years (and even when I questioned giving up) I DID NOT give in!! I remain in contact w/ ex-druggie friends of mine who were walking down that same path as I, and you know what?? They just quit doing drugs - just like that!! How did they do that? I have no idea - it was not in me at the time and I NEEDED assistance. I'm sorry that so many of you suffered at the hands of the Seed, but I, did not.
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Well, as long as it helped you[/b]. Never mind the hundred or thousands that it destroyed or damn near. Since a few felt that it helped them, I guess it was all worth it. :roll:
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And you don't know HOW you would have turned out had you NOT gone in...just like I don't know how I would have turned out had I not gone in. You may very well have grown out of it just like the majority of kids do, given the chance.
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On 2004-12-18 18:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
"And you don't know HOW you would have turned out had you NOT gone in...just like I don't know how I would have turned out had I not gone in. You may very well have grown out of it just like the majority of kids do, given the chance."
UH...I DON'T THINK SO! You just don't get it - but that's OK. That's what this site is for...sharing our memories; black, white and the greys in between.
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OK, you don't think so. But you don't know. You really don't. Some of those people that I spoke of earlier were some pretty hard core cases. There were two of them that even back then I thought would end up dead. They're fine. They're happy, they're settled and feeling pretty content with themselves. These people who I gave ZERO chance of surviving past 25 are doing FINE.
I get it, believe me I get it. Your beloved program destroyed so many more lives than it ever helped.
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On 2004-12-18 18:29:00, Robin Martin wrote:
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On 2004-12-18 17:51:00, Anonymous wrote: Somehow they made it through adolescense without benefit of any program.
NO DOUBT...but I wasn't one of them. All I'm saying is some of us needed it, many did not. I also believe it takes a strong spirit to be able to seek help and move on. Some of us are stronger than others...others are more sensative. We all handle difficult situations in our own unique way. I've had some very traumatic incidents over the years (and even when I questioned giving up) I DID NOT give in!! I remain in contact w/ ex-druggie friends of mine who were walking down that same path as I, and you know what?? They just quit doing drugs - just like that!! How did they do that? I have no idea - it was not in me at the time and I NEEDED assistance. I'm sorry that so many of you suffered at the hands of the Seed, but I, did not."
Good post Robin. You make some good points. Your friends, Many of them I am sure, that made it without going to the seed...here is the big secret....ready?
They did it because they were never hopeless addicts that were destined to be dead insane or injail without Art "saving" them. Non patentable Drugs and particularly marijuana have never lived up to their boggyman hype. Sure They can be dangerous and destructive but most people learn to manage their use and eventually stop, going on to the more important quests of life like success, a family, a job, a future. Its true....only the truly self destructive and obsessive compulsive types seem to get caught up in the addictive process.
The whole "one way street" hype was just a myth, Robin.
And as far as listing people that didn't make it,I could play that as well, starting with Big Frank, seed graduate and SDF poster that died of an overdose just last year. When he went into the seed he was a thirteen year old that was subjected to cruel abuse. He carried that with him till just recently when he tragically died with a needle in his arm.
The list of fallen seed "graduates" is long, painfull, and extremely telling. Bennett Beverely, jumped of the skyway. Cris, one vehicle accident, Dave L, Overdose, Mickey...blew his brains out...Pat D, in jail, Jimmy W, on the lame, and the list goes on and on...
I contend that the seed harmed many more people than it helped including most of the "sucessfull graduates" that hung around like a celebate art barker martyr for some 10 to 15 years, delaying the normalcy of having children, a family and a normal social situation, all buying into the deadinsaneorinjail stepcraft lie.
The experience doesn't harm everyone, this I know, and some people needed an extreme intervening circumstance in their life. Some people are even saved by going to jail or a mental hospital. It doesn't make it a pleasant or rewarding experience, it just happened at the right (or wrong) time. This also doesn't validate the underlying treatment modality. People have stopped using drugs by joining all types of cults, including the moonies and the hari krisnas. Most of the young guys you uses to see beating tambourines and jumping around in flowing robes were pot heads first. Most moonies and Scientologist and other cult members have checkered pasts. Some people ALWAYS stop using drugs. It is the normal human condition to try to rise above your present situation, and linking up with mind cults is one way people try to self improve. I submit that most often it is a tragic mistake that results in loss to the individual. Others seem to thrive under that type of self made societal structure.
BTW, the other day I was playing around on our states Inmate website and saw an old friend of mine in jail from dealing drugs. He never went to the seed. In fact, he used to tease me a bit. He has been in and out of jail since he was about 20. Would the seed have saved him? Would his savior be worth many others being harmed? How do we reconcile our experience by saying it was worth it to save one kid and tear another family apart or to doom another to a lifelong mental problem.... Or another to an impending feeling of worthlessness and despair for 30 years or so, never understanding why?
This modality harms people and tears families apart. It always has. I am living proof. It also intervenes in some people's lives and gives them a fresh start. Still others are left proclaiming they were saved from impending doom of death, insanity or jail when in fact there is no basis for that proclamation other than a stint in behavior modification that strongly imbedded the stepcraft myth in their hardwired memory, that left them believing before a magical date they were doomed to extreme failure and worthlessness and after said date were totally transfixed into a productive person.
Where do we take this conversation from there? Those are the facts as I see them. I know others don't agree. I trust my research and instincts on this one....
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At age 15 I was the typical druggie in suburbia via 1974. I smoked pot most days before school and I took L.S.D. a few times. I experimented with speed and seconol and a few other pills. In July 1974 90 Percent of the seed population was in a similiar boat when it came to drug use. As I recall very few of us were hard core drug addicts. I will refer to them as "Junkies". I truthfully dont know if any of the junkies were "saved". I remember Libby was a heroin addict and so was Robert Chun and black Arthur the graduate were successful.
It seemed like most teenage seedlings had "attitude" problems and drugs were ancillary. If we were addicted to drugs we were also addicted to long hair and bell bottoms. That was a phase we were going through and many of us could have done fine without the seed but there are those of us that needed a major attitude adjustment and I was one of them.
The seed saved my ass. I took drugs but they were not really my problem. Living life without escaping was my problem. The seed had created a new enviroment for me, drug free for starters, that was scary because I had to live life on life's terms without escaping to never never land. Over a period of days , then weeks, then months my outlook on life improved dramatically> I dropped my "freak" image and did very well in school and became a reliable and dependable kid with good social skills (with seedlings, we werent allowed to talk to druggies which were everyone else)
What happened to all my old druggie friends? I honestly dont know because I went home to Fairview Park and told a few that I didnt want to talk to them and word got out so I didn't have to worry. Lucky for me I went to a different High School in my senior year. The weird thing is that I looked through my sisters yearbook from 1976(my graduation year) and almost all of the guys (from my old school) that I smoked dope with and raised hell were not in that year of the yearbook. What do you suppose happened to them? I suspect that they burned out and then dropped out or got in serious trouble. Maybe it was as Timothy Leary used to say "Tune in, Turn on, Drop out"
The seed indeed is all you need to stay off the junk and the pills and the weed, we come each day from 10 to 10 and if you screw up you'll start again. Junkies and freaks throughout the land join our family hand in hand, working together from morning till night we help each other win the fight ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
What a cult song
Anyhow the cult saved my life and My family was very proud of me
Peace and love to ALL seedlings!!!
Jimmy :wave:
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Wrong--You saved! your ass! The Seed showed you what it takes to do it---not drugs or booze. Now it seems that you are once again standing on the ledge on one foot.Strange you you would bring up suicide on you latest post! I know that the holiday season will increase this feeling! My feeling is only the strongest survive in any setting. Yea you can blame all your problems on everyone else or other reasons as I have read on many of these threads but you are the only one that can make the call! I dont have to be touchy and feely to care ! Your family is watching. :tup:
TRUCKER
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Does anyone remember a guy named Seth? I always thought he was a good guy.
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Sure I remember Seth - worked at Sears, loved to read, played classical guitar? Yup...more introspective than your average Seedling. Good guy.
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Sure I remember Seth S. Good guy he used to drive me in the a.m. when I was a new Comer. He also helped me view things in the correct light I needed to see them in. I was stuborn when I first came in and Seth was very direct and never pulled his punches in my case that is what I needed. Seth was a hard person to figure out but he was a good and well rooted person
CCGAR