Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: GregFL on December 28, 2004, 12:38:00 PM
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We need some new ex seed people here. I know some are watching and not posting. Please post here.
Existing people, please everyone think of at least one person you know that used to be in the seed and ask them to please post here.
This site has become something I think we should all be proud of, something I wasn't sure would be this successfull. Imagine... A forum where people can discuss their experiences and opinions about the seed with people that accept their opinions and offer counter arguments
...if someone had suggested 30 years ago that one day this would exist...I woulda called "bullshit" on em! :grin:
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On 2004-12-28 09:38:00, GregFL wrote:This site has become something I think we should all be proud of, something I wasn't sure would be this successfull.
Imagine... A forum where people can discuss their experiences and opinions about the seed with people that accept their opinions and offer counter arguments
"...with people that accept their opinions and offer counter arguments"? And that, my friends, is what I love about this forum.
I've connected w/ some accepting and some controversial souls and it's all been good. I just wish some weren't 'hell bent' on trying to convince us all it was BAD...VERY, VERY BAD :wave:
Once again, thanks all for making this possible!
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I second Robin, the Seed was not a Very Bad place. My experience was both good and bad and I have opted to look at the GOOD. I look forward to hear from more seedlings as you share your experiences.
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There are many old friends from St. Pete that I would like to hear from so if you know me, or even if you don't, give a shout out and support this forum - whatever your views.
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Oh what the heck! I'll third that. ::bigsmilebounce::
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AS STATED BY SNALEA ON THE CEDU THREAD:
"It sounds like a hell hole. It is hard to imagine anyone defending the Seed. Even if a kid really had drug difficulties, 12 hour raps would do more damage than good. If people want to help kids, it seems that would include opportunties to follow/ develop interests and learn how to thrive in the "real world." Not isolating them in a bunker for hours without relief, cut off and insulated from the world they will eventually live in.
What I don't understand is how anyone could defend the Seed formula for "helping" kids. It's not based on any type of healthy, realistic paradigm for living and making good choices. Did someone actually think that putting kids in a bunker, yelling and humiliating them everyday,teaching them to bully and spy on eachother, and cutting them off from normal people and life was going to help them? "
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Do you guys think that still brooding, cheering or obsessing over this some 30+ years after the fact, regardless of our personal views, is any indiciation of the amount of help we actually recieved ?
This fact alone tells the world more about us and the power of the place than all well-thought or eloquently written statements we could ever post in this public domain.
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Ditto
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Hell yeah!
I'm still most intrigued, though, by trying to solve the "chicken and egg" puzzle about Program influence in the public sector. On a personal level, it really is ancient history. But they didn't go away, instead some of these sanctimonious sons of bitches are actually writing public policy!
Pray: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy.
--Ambrose Bierce
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I'm Still out here. I have this forum in my opera browser tabs. Everytime I open the browser the forum is there, I just reload. For those who don't know I was in the Ft. Pierce Seed in 74.
Just thought I'd say hi.
Are there any other lurkers out there?
Definition from Google: A lurker is anyone who reads the postings or messages in a chat room or Internet newsgroup, but who rarely, if ever, chimes in with messages of his or her own.
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I'm still pretty upset about what happened to my family. That started long before The Seed. My grandfather was a 'professional alcoholic' just like Art, as my dad used to say.
But, based on what you say and what I remember, The Seed was only really, horrendously & obviously brutal for a couple of years and worst in the same timeframe that St. Pete was open. I wonder about that. My perception was that Straight was just like The Seed only far more regimented and . . . Republican.
I'm learning a lot.
Do you understand that I've been immersed in a culture that lauds Program heros and philosophy? These are my boogie men. I had to stand down the DARE cop, all 5'2" of me, w/ my children when I just didn't feel right about the impromptu Group session when they dropped by, unannounced to anybody, at the local park where my kids used to go play. They stood by all the doors, arms crossed, mirror shades on, indoors while they demanded that every kid who walked through the door sit down in straight rows on the floor, cross legged and be silent, SILENT! for the puppet show.
One of these guys stopped us with "Where are you going?" on the way past him out the door. I said "Out of here and kept on walking.
So yeah, I'm a little touchy when it comes to people claiming that the Program was benign, is history, was relatively beneficial and is certainly not harmful (except to loser druggies who have spent the past 30 years, (since age 6 or so, in my case) denying their true, druggie nature.)
Sorry. Really, I am sorry when I pop off at you. But you should apologize for rubbing it my face sometimes, too. Wicked men obey from fear, good men from love.
--Aristotle
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Hey Screwup74, long time no hear. Glad to have you back and posting...
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Wow, I just found this forum. It was so weird, I was talking to my sister about the seed the other day and then there was a show on drug rehabs. I decided to look up the seed to see if it still existed.
That was a hellish time in my life. I was at SR84 around '72 or '73. I'm not certain of the exact year. My parents stuck me in there. I swear, I thought I was having a seriously long nightmare for a couple of months, then reality sank in.
You'll have to excuse my garbled memories of things, I have repressed this stuff for a long time. Do you remember after you were there for a week or so you had to stand up in an open meeting and tell everyone the drugs you did, how long you did them, what you were like "on the street" and how much you learned since you arrived at the glorious seed? My first time, when I got to the part about what I had learned I said "nothing and I would rather be back on the street". Libby came over to me (if looks could kill I'd be dead) and said do it again and do it right. So I said the same thing the second time. She said I was gonna get it the next day. Boy did I ever, they screamed at me for hours. I think every person in there took a turn. Alas, that was not to be my last time either.....
Oh man, memories are flooding back. I don't know about the guys, but remember the girls would hold your hand when you went to the bathroom....or anywhere for that matter. And those stinking papers you had to write at night...moral inventories or something like that. All those dumbass songs we had to sing.
I remember being in groups with Robert (? black guy). I mean, granted I did a lot of drugs, but I wasn't a bottomless pit of stories. If I didn't have my hand raised every five minutes he would call on me and say "Come on Cyndi, I know you did some bad shit out there" I got to the point where I would make up stories.
I never bought into their brainwashing. When I got out the first time I still did a few drugs and was much less of a wild child. I was too freaked out to see any of my old friends. I went to a different school. Then I got put in there again, which was even worse.......(especially since I had Jethro Tull tix sitting at home) Oddly enough, I remember less about the second time around....my emotional defenses are very strong and if something traumatizes me I likely will block it out. So, who knows what happened.
I really do think that place damaged me emotionally, as well as other things in my life. Most of which probably wouldn't have happened, if I hadn't led the life I was living at the time. They would say really vile things to people. I don't know anyone from that time anymore.
Thankfully, the hardest stuff I do now is a good glass of wine or maybe a beer. I have a great husband and am very happy.
Sorry, I didn't intend on vomiting on everyone. This was just such a shock.
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Thank you so much for posting Cindy. I was in in 73 also but in St Pete.
Do me a favor, think back to something that happened when you were there that seemed big to you at the time and post the story. Also choose a user name.
We look forward to your participation here!. Where do you live now?
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This is Cyndi again, I now have a user name. In light of the forum, I think that my user name choice is apropos.
Well, I got "stood up" a number of times. That first time after the open house, one of the staff members said they were going to cut my hair and nails off. It may have been Libby. My reply was "touch me and I'll kill you".
Kinda lived with me for quite a while after she tried to kill herself (this was later on). I felt like I had to protect her. Even at 13 or 14, whatever I was, I couldn't believe that her parents kept her there after that. This was no cry for help, this was I want to die. I worried about her all the time. That has stayed with me all these years.
I've think my ability to get close to people and to trust was seriously affected by that place.
When I say I thought I was having an extended nightmare I am not kidding. I walked around in a daze for a couple of months and really thought I was going to wake up at home.
I was tackle and stuffed in the car by my parents and uncle. They sat on either side of me on the drive from Jacksonville to Ft. Laud. At a gas station I stated screaming that I was kidnapped. Good thing I wasn't because no one did anything.
I know that my parents were at their wits end with me and didn't know where to turn. I was really pretty bad. In some ways I got what I deserved because the only other alternative I can think of was that I would be busted and put in the juvy system.
I'm very close to my mom now and also to my dad when he was alive. He died in 2001.
So, something that seemed big? It all did and didn't at the same time. I've always been one of those people that adapts and keeps going. I knew that if I just kept plugging along I would eventually get out.
When I started school down there it was pretty traumatic. I went to Miami Beach High School (or something like that) I remember cute surf guys coming up to me to talk and there was ALWAYS a seed person around. So, I'd have to give them the speech and feel like a complete and utter idiot. I remember one of them saying, "not you too" and he walked off. For a high school age kid that seemed traumatic at the time. I'd have to walk around everyday at school feeling like an outcast.
When I finally got home, my room had been stipped. All that was left was a pair of hemostats. My parents didn't know what they were. I had a really good laugh at that. All my posters, bongs, papers and concert stubs were gone, but the roach clip remained.
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<"That first time after the open house, one of the staff members said they were going to cut my hair and nails off.">
There was a small item in this week's Time magazine that immediately brought the seed to mind:
"Let Us Trim Our Hair in Accordance with Socialist Lifestyle." ....Title of a TV series in North Korea where the government is directing men to see their barbers twice a month.
Then I remembered that some congressmen of the time compared the seed's methods to North Korean brainwashing....and this made the connection even stronger. So they made the girls trim their hair too? I never knew that. "Let us trim our hair in accordance with Seed lifestyle."
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Awe,, I wish somebody would cut my nails and hair for me. But my woman left me. Poor guys ::boohoo::
I give money for church organs in the hope the organ music will distract the congregation's attention from the rest of the service.
--Andrew Carnegie, Scottish-born American industrialist and philanthropist
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Trust me, no one cut my hair and/or nails that day or any other day I was there.
It is so weird talking about this stuff to people who were there.
The night I spoke to my sister about the seed (referencing my first post), she asked me if the seed helped me at all. I stopped and really thought about my answer. I said yes and no. Their philosophy on life at the seed and life after the seed certainly didn't. Even the medication thing, like my head would pop off if I ever took cough medicine with codeine in it. "Call and check with us before you take any medication"...yeah right.
The only thing they did was isolate me from my friends for so long, and tell my parents that if I ever started hanging around them again I was a druggie, that I was afraid to contact anyone. So I lost touch. It's really sad. I have no childhood friends.
My husband just got home from a business trip and I told him about the forum. He couldn't believe it, as it happened so long ago. I told him that some things in your life stay with you even if you don't want them too. If I could blot that time from my memories I probably would.
Most of the people that I knew back then are fine, married with kids, mortgages and jobs. A few are completely screwed and in jail or dead, but I think you'd find that in any group of people.
I saw that staff guy's name in another post. Robert Chun (sp?), he's the one that used to hammer me all the time in group. I would rather have been cleaning toilets that sit in with him.
It's funny, one time when I was 19 or 20, me and a friend were driving by the seed. I said I wanted to stop and tell the staff to @#$& off. I couldn't even pull the car into the parking lot. My heart was racing and I felt like I couldn't breathe. I just took off. I guess I clucked like a chicken.
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Hi, I am glad you found this site too. I was in the Seed from '79 to '85, first in Cleveland than on SR 84. I stayed around a long time as an 'oldcomer,' finally leaving when I realized nothing was ever going to change for me unless I took back control over my life. When you said you have no childhood friends, that struck me. I lost contact with everyone from high school thru my freshman year at college, because they were all 'druggies.' from my family I became estranged. I had to reinvent myself at 26 and go on from there. I still mourn the loss of my late teens and 20s. I guess in someways the trauma of dislocating my life was 'valuable,' in that I certainly learned a lot, but at a very high cost. Oddly enough, I can't help feeling some fondness form my seed years and the people I spent time with there, and thru this forum I've come into contact with a few people I knew. Welcome.
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girls had their hair cut in what my sister described as a "pixie" style. It was almost a unisexual cut. They were also stripped of all their makeup and cute clothes,adopted the crude language of the seed and didn't wear any perfume or cologne and were therefore stripped of their femininity.
This was in my opinion worse than what us guys had to do, which was merely wear our hair in a universally bad style similar to all other seedlings and wear jeans and mostly white tee shirts or seed shirts. Our "uniform" per see didn't address our sexuality the way the girls were forced to.
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Wow. No perfume either? I guess I was never close enough to a seed 'chick' (a term I still find absurd and demeaning to women) to even notice. Guys weren't allowed facial hair either. This obviosly wasn't an issue for younger guys. The months I spent on my program are about the only time since I was 13 that I haven't at least worn a mustache. I remember being suspicious of the few oldtimers that had facial hair. I thought they must be at least partially full of sh*t.
I recall a staff member getting a really short haircut once and saying that he felt much more 'manly' and that this was a really manly haircut. There were definite images to which seed males and females had to conform. It's like they were trying to turn the clock back to the happy-days 50's in many ways.
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When I was there blue jeans were also suspect. Staff members wore polyester 'slacks' with a golf shirt and matching socks, like Art. Staff women wore the female version of this in pastel colors. AS an oldcomer, the jeans ban was somewhat relaxed but you definitely couldn't wear anything 'cool' which at the time would have been ripped, patched or faded jeans.
Cool tennis shoes like Adidas or Nikes were out too. The only staff member with facial hair finally shaved it off to beg acclaim in the group.
Standards of 'manly' and 'feminine' were very much in the 1950 mold - clean-shaven, short,neat hair, simple clothing - and we were expected to be polite, too, unless interacting with a 'druggie.' Then you could tell them to fuck off.
And then "I love you!"
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trying to match art´s dress style didn´t happen until much later when the seed got smaller and yes, even stranger.
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I did like some of the people that I met there; however, I didn't form any lasting bonds with anyone. I didn't really trust anyone. I definitely thought the staff had their collective heads up their asses. When I was able to take newcomers home with me I tried to make things fun and lighthearted at home.
Some places I lived as a newcomer never let up. It was 10 to 10 at the seed, and then from the time I got home until I went to sleep and the same in the morning until I arrived at the seed. It was torture.
I remember I had a newcomer named Kyle (sp?) that tried to run in middle of the night. She accidentally broke the window and oddly enough, I though someone was trying to break in (sleepy brain) and I jumped up and grabbed her and pulled her toward me to keep the nebulous burglar from getting her. When I realized what was happening it actually hurt my feelings that she tried to run away. But she was obviously running from the seed and not me personally.
My first day I had on a tight shirt, very short shorts, flip flops and my bathing suit underneath because I was going to skip school and go to the beach. I got dirty looks when they took me out to the group, and the first time I got stood up (which didn't take long) you best believe that was a major topic of conversation. I was obviously a whore and playing games with guys. It's as if they didn't know what kinds of clothes department stores were selling. To me, I just looked like everyone else at home.
Did anyone else here have to write those damn papers every night? Or were they doing it to me to make me nuts????? I made a bonfire when I got home and burned them all. :flame:
I remember hearing that the staff members had been junkies and I was very suspect of that fact, even then. Does anyone know if it was it true or not?
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Yes IcantTalktoYou, everyone had to write those papers...moral inventories. At least they were still required when I was there in 76-77. Maybe Cleveland can tell us whether the practice continued in later years. I think I still have a few notebooks full of that stuff in my closet. When I read them now I feel embarrased and slightly nauseated. The 'voices' of the staff / group became my own interior superego....which I think was the general idea. That the mind-control be internalized so that we imagined it was all freely embraced. I was extremely harsh with myself in those pages
BTW, welcome to the forum. The first night I found this forum, I was so disturbed by the memories that it evoked that I was unable to sleep at all. This was followed by several nights of nightmares about being back there. The seed is dead, but apparently lots of knock-offs survive to this day.
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Yup, everybody did moral inventories. Somebody transcribed theirs on this site! Scroll thru and read...
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everyone had to write their "moral inventories" every night, not just you, and the stories of staff being junkies, well some of them maybe but everyone (probably even including you) exagerated their drug "problem".
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On 2005-01-20 09:46:00, GregFL wrote:
"girls had their hair cut in what my sister described as a "pixie" style. It was almost a unisexual cut. They were also stripped of all their makeup and cute clothes,adopted the crude language of the seed and didn't wear any perfume or cologne and were therefore stripped of their femininity.
It was 'suggested' I cut my hair and did not. It was armpit length when I came in. I did however decide a few months later to get it cut to shoulder length (easier to take care of). Yeah, I was a KID who should not have been wearing makeup and revealing clothes, i.e., blouses unbuttoned to here, low-rise jeans showing my belly, going braless, etc. Stripped of my femininity?? I wasn't quite mature enough to understand what that meant at the time, I WAS A KID!! If anything, they taught me to respect myself and my body. :wave:
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On 2005-01-20 18:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
It was 'suggested' I cut my hair and did not. It was armpit length when I came in. I did however decide a few months later to get it cut to shoulder length (easier to take care of). Yeah, I was a KID who should not have been wearing makeup and revealing clothes, i.e., blouses unbuttoned to here, low-rise jeans showing my belly, going braless, etc. Stripped of my femininity?? I wasn't quite mature enough to understand what that meant at the time, I WAS A KID!! If anything, they taught me to respect myself and my body. :wave: "
If you were old enough to wear a bra then you were old enough to have some sense of femininity. It is an inherent part of your psychological identity. For that to be stripped as it was forming was not healthy.
I swear sometimes I really think that parents freak out when they find out that their kid actually has a mind, body and spirit of their own. It's scary, I know, but our job is to GUIDE our kids through that time period in life. Our job is NOT to mold them into some image of what we want them to be. They're going to do outrageous things. They're going to wear outrageous clothes. They're going to get piercings or dye their hair weird colors or wear all black or whatever. They're going to try drugs. They're going to drink. It's ALL GOING TO HAPPEN AT SOME POINT OR ANOTHER. It's the start of the process of cutting the apron strings. Our job is to help them merge into adult responsibilities and privileges with a sense that they balance each other out. It's like the condom/abstinence thing. I talked to my kids about sex, explained all the reasons why I thought they should wait until they were really ready, the dangers......all the stuff you're supposed to say. BUT....I also said...look, if you ARE going to go out and do it, here's a package of condoms. Same thing with the entire package of growing up. You KNOW they're going to do stupid, irrational, dangerous, moronic things. It's a part of growing up. Helping them find a right balance between finding their own autonomy and keeping themselves alive and relatively healthy is my job.
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Ah! I just figured out the exact year I got incarcerated at the seed. It was 1973. I remember hearing the following new song on the radio all the time at my foster family's house:
Stuck inside these four walls, sent inside forever,
Never seeing no one nice again like you,
Mama you, mama you.
If I ever get out of here,
Thought of giving it all away
To a registered charity.
All I need is a pint a day
If I ever get out of here.
Good Ol' Paul McCartney and also Midnight at the Oasis was on all the time.
Wanting everyone to look and act the same reeeeally inspires creativity and individuality also. Very healthy to be automatons.
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Hi all....I found this site quite by accident, I was searching info on the Hal Marchman Act a few days ago and have been lurking here ever since! I can't seem to quit reading this stuff. I still haven't remembered much more about it than this; it must have been 1972, I think I was at 2 different locations, the first seemed like maybe a huge tent? I remember the names, Art, Libby. There was a stage? with a very brightly painted toilet on it maybe it was pink, and although I don't have a specific memory of it being used, I don't think it was a good thing. The second location seems like it was on a busy, but desolate highway, it was some sort of loading dock,abandoned, concrete wharehouse type place. I remember my mom suppying me with cartons of cigarettes, probably her own guilt for putting me there. I asked her questions about it yesterday and her memory is vague but she took me out? or let me quit? because she said she didn't think it was right that they made you stand up in front of everybody and tell what a stupid, worthless asshole you are. I do remember being very afraid at school (sunrise middle?) to talk to my freinds because they had people watching you and would tell, I can't remember what would happen if you did. I have no concept in time of how long I was there.
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Here are a few I would like to here from:
Ginger (from Ohio)
Robert (who used to run the limo for Art)
Grace (from WPB)
90% of my experience with the Seed was bad the other 10% I forget. Wish it was the other way around.
(1973-74 HWY #84)
:nworthy:
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I was from Jupiter too and around the same time frame 1973-74(a very long year). My little Brother followed me in a week or so later......care to leave your initials?
Mine are NN
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The second location was the old blimp hanger on hwy 84 in Ft lauderdale.
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Hi truthjunkie, I too recently found this forum. You can see my posts start on the 18th.
The more I read, the more I remember. Mostly unpleasesant things. When I read the moral inventories that someone posted it really brought back bad memories.
Did your mom put you in because she (correctly or incorrectly) thought you were on drugs? If you did use drugs, what happened when you got out?
Welcome.......and I won't yell "we love you".....
To anyone, was the Robert that drove the limo, Robert Chun? There was a Seed in WPB?
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When I got stuck in the SR84 seed in '73, I was from Jacksonville. My name is Cyndi.
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Yes, Robert Chun drove the Limo. recenlty he was mayor of Dania Beach Florida, and he makes it open his affiliation with art barker and the seed.
Welcome TruthJunkie! It seems perhaps you started out in the miami blimp hanger and then were moved to the ft lauderdale seed on sr84. Art closed the miami seed overnight when he was cut out of some public funds... Your lack of memory is not uncommon with graduates of not onlythe seed, but other synanon type programs. It seems people spend years forcing the memories to go away and then it takes a little time to recover them.
anyway, we welcome your participation here. we usually ask of new posters to try to remember something that happened while you were there and tell us about it.
Thanks.
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Well....I don't know which came first, the drugs or the seed. I think I was in there because my stepsister got caught having sex! I think my mom threw both of us in to the seed because she panicked. She was newly wed and inherited her new husbands 13 year old daughter and 16 year old son. She was always a control freak and I was her only child(and perfectly trained to obey), I was 14, new to Ft Laud from a small town in PA and ready to explore all the wonders, it was my coming of age. I turned into a wildchild overnight. I still can't remember if it was before or after the seed experience though. I was behaving very dangerously, skipping school, stealing, sneaking out at night and riding bikes or thumbing rides to the strip partying with spring breakers. I continued on this path of self destruction for 16 more years, alot of drugs, then after kids, mostly just out of control drinking. I have been clean and sober since 1988.
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well GregFL I have been wracking my brain the past few days trying to remember something specific, a story to tell, but so far nothing! This happens to me alot, I have forgotten so many important things, and it drives me nuts. I guess that's what has lured me back here to this, I want to remember ALL the experiences in my life whether good or bad........I may forever be a lurker here trying to piece together my fragmented past! :???:
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I went to the Dania Beach website and found Robert Chunn's pic. He is a commissioner now. What a creepy feeling I had. Honestly though, if I hadn't seen the name I wouldn't have recognized him.
I though to myself "damn, he's old." Then I realized I'll be 46 this year......so I don't look the same as I did in '73 either. lol
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As near as I can recall I entered the Seed right before my 14 birthday (Oct 1974). I remember this because as a newcomer, sitting in the front row, Robert Chunn said something to the effect that "did I think I was looking older that day." It was my birthday and I thought someone actually was saying something nice to me (let alone someone knowing my birthday). As he had me stand up when he talked to me, I soon realized as hands flew up, what he was really saying was that I thought I was trying to be cool and look older than my age. That was pretty much my first memory, getting chastised by the entire group for something in which I had no clue about.
As you can guess I was one of those who really should have never been there. Let me try a give you a little bit about what brought me there. First, my mother who was much older than most kids my age grandparents. She divorced my alcoholic father when I was 7 and had to work to support my bother and I. As a child I never remember playing with my mom, really talking to her or anything that would resemble a normal childhood. My brother and I were always made to think that we were bad and different. We were constantly compared to our perfect cousins or other children. My mother never, ever believed me. I NEVER, I repeat NEVER took any kind of drugs before the Seed. Was I an out of control teen, you bettcha. No role models, no feeling of acceptance, no safe place on which to fall. I had spent that summer at my aunts house in PA and my brother who was younger, had already tried smoking pot. One thing lead to the other and some parents of a seedling for PBG came to have a heart to heart with my mom. Within a week or so I landed at the seed.
I never was allowed to smoke until I went to the Seed. At 14 the staffers told my mom it is better that I smoked cigarettes than pot. Thus a lifelong struggle with that addiction.
Like I said before, I never did drugs. Of course the Seed NEVER believed me, why should they, hell my own mother didn't either. The worst thing, until very recently (this week), I actually thought I did smoke pot before I went there. After remembering the first time, I realized that it was AFTER I went into the Seed. My mother moved to a different house while I was in the Seed so I knew the right time frame. I still can't believe that I thought I had....geeeezz...talk about having my mind completely screwed up. I had such a hard time trying to fit in, trying to make them happy. Being so young and naive I really didn't have a clue to what the hell was going on. I did learn, as I lied and told them I did smoke pot, I was treated better and called up in front of the group less. The more I lied and told them other drugs, the less they took their frustrations out on me. I guess after a while you start believing your own lies.
I remember when another girl knew (Karen) came in while I was still a newcomer. We both knew sign language and we're trying to make our "escape." Not sure which staff figured it out, I think it was Ginger. I was a newcomer for a very long time. As much as I tried I was still a little wallflower. I remember even as a oldcomer, I didn't go home because I lived in Jupiter and couldn't come down the once or twice a weeknight meetings. I lost an entire year of school, an entire freaking year! I think the graduated me because they finally figured out I was still there. I remember the stupid songs, moral inventories, smoking on the hour or when the rap leader smoked. I remember sitting in that little space halfway up the stairs to run errands from phone calls. I remember working at the front desk at intake and wanting to write the word "RUN" and pass it to the poor kids coming in. I remember wanting to clean the bathrooms to get out of the damn rap meetings. I remember the heat in the summer. I remember exercising outside and nearly passing out from heat exhaustion. I remember having terrible headaches and being accused of lying about them. I remember the nasty sandwiches and kool-aid, the homes that I stayed in, the cranks that were taken off the windows, having to have some in the bathroom with me when I showered (that was really rough). I remember the softball games, and that I was the reason girls were no longer allowed to pitch.
It's amazing as I have read the posts for about a year, what I had blocked out. It all started to trickling back, little by little.
I remember Boone Dardens daughter Kim , an oldtimer. She used to be, I think a model at one time. I remember a Greg that lived in Tequesta. Karen from Berean Baptist (who later became a nurse), a boy I had a crush on that lived in the western part of WPB (can't remember his name). I remember Marilyn Sherman from Stuart who I stayed friends with for a few years and was the maid of honor at my wedding. Dawn who lived on Military Trail on PBG, I remember a very wealthy family that lived in Miami who had a huge poodle and a monkey, I think the dad was a regional director for 7-11, the family that had a really cool poster where all the kids who stayed there drew and colored on, I remember some really, really nasty dirty homes and some very weathly homes. I remember the cars that would pass by the Seed in Davie on SR84 yelling Fuck You, then later becoming one of them. I remember one of the dad's who was a pilot who flew Art to the different locations.
The staff I remember where, Billy the midget, Robert Chunn, John Underwood, Ginger,Darlene, Libby, Cookie who was engaged when she first came in (right after me) and had a big ring that really pissed off the staff, Suzie, Cliff, Pam (who I later learned married John U).
Art, I personally never liked, he gave me the creeps. He dressed weird, had a God complex and married someone more than half his age. Could never figure out why people worshipped him. Right before I graduated I remember going up to the "inner sanctum" Upstairs was very differnet from the downstairs hell. I do know he never ate bologna of peanut butter sandwiches or drank watered down kool-aid. Remember his limo....geez the nerve. My family's money was well spent! They had hardly any overhear. I never spoke one word to him or him to I until the one time I came back as an oldtimer and experiencing one of Arts "moods." I left and never returned, I remember getting one to those Christmas letters asking for donations and just writing "Fuck You" on it and sending it back. I really blocked a lot of stuff out.
I thought about writing to Art & Libby, as well as a few others this week, and telling them I never did drugs before I came there, that losing a whole freaking year of school really screw up my life. I was an uncontrollable teenage because my mom was clueless and had no where near a normal family, was sexually abused. I didn't fit in even in my own family and could never fit in the Seed. I wanted them to apologize, THEY WERE WRONG!!!! It would have been nice for someone to say they were sorry. They all had a part of a very painful time in my life. My spirit was broken and many years were spent trying to please others. I was in my late 30's before I woke up and realized I had no clue who I was. My likes and dislikes were modeled after the ones I was trying to please. It took everythng thing in me to get away from unhealthy relationships. Finally after 30 years I feel ok. The deep depression and self hatred has stopped.
I didn't write because I knew they would not remember lowly me, the wallflower. The one who didn't have a dramatic story to tell. The one who wasn't from a rich family. The one whose life spiraled downward. They were partly to blame, all of them. I was just a confuzed kid. What they did was WRONG on so many levels!!! I was really the wrong person, at the wrong place, at the wrong time.
Most of all I remember never feeling like I fit in, just like my own family. I tried to do everything to be a good little seedling, made up all kinds of stories of drug use to appease them.
To Greg, It has really helped me reading your posts. To hear from someone intelligent and sane was a big help. I spent years feeling unimportant, low self esteem and a few times suicidal. I am almost afraid to remember much more than I already have, I mean having to relive that nightmare again. Most of the memories are pretty bad, few good ones, but the good ones were outside the Seed in a few nice host families.
Thanks again for being brave enough to reach out to the rest of us rejects form the Seed. May this forum finally bring some healing to the deep wounds of our spirits. I still wonder what I would have been like had I not went there. Bad homelife and then the Seed, I guess it is a miricle I am still alive and kicking. Thanks again Greg.
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Yep. You definitely remember the seed. Jupiter, that was one of the best posts I've read here. Thanks.
<"The staff I remember where, Billy the midget, Robert Chunn, John Underwood, Ginger,Darlene, Libby, Cookie who was engaged when she first came in (right after me) and had a big ring that really pissed off the staff, Suzie, Cliff, Pam (who I later learned married John U).">
I came to the seed in 1976 and those were the staff members I remember too. (plus Robin, Terry and Hank) Just one strange thing that you or someone might be able to clear-up....Cookie was a necomer when I arrived. She wasn't added to staff until many months later in my recollection. And you say she was on staff when you were there in 74? Someone mentioned that she got started over. I just assumed that this was after I left. So she made staff, screwed-up, started-over and made staff again while I was there?
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Cookie who was engaged when she first came in (right after me) and had a big ring that really pissed off the staff"
How cud this be , she walked in 75 , so how long did it take her to be staff? IF you came in before her, why weren't you staff first?
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Hi Jupiter Survivor. Good job. That seems to have been a cathartic post for you.
We are not the seed rejects. The seed and the Art worshippers are the rejects.
Keep healing.
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Thank you so much for your post Jupiter reject.
Yes "I can't talk to you", some of us were "seed rejects" but mostly because we rejected the seed we paid a big price. To us the price of our freedom of mind had no price that was not worth it and we sacrified our homes,our friends, and family to garner our self worth and freedom from the cult.
No one until now has understood that. Now I know people do, people that built their lives around the seed even get it now, people like Ft Laud and trucker have been gracious enough to really listen to what happened to us "rejects" and understand that rejecting the seed did not make you a failure in your life.
Jupiter reject, welcome to the forum. Please participate often.
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Being told so many times that i was full of shi* that I believed it for years
Not being allowed to read anything, even street signs, or being allowed to speak for the first 3 days
Being forced to have my long hair cut by my oldcommer into a weird upside-down u shape, shoulder length
being told to stop looking at the "guys"
telling the bathroom monitor 1,2, or 3
being laughed at and told to "sit down" almost every time I related
blurry memories of love raps, spirit of the group raps, girls rap, and me flailing my right arm while trying to be invisible at the same time
open meeting when my mom would stand up and cry
being the last of 4 siblings to finally go home and never feeling that i fit in or understood what was expected of me
using the f word, every other word
saying "you know" every other word
being scared to death that i would be called on during a rap
witnessing my old best friend fabricating a complete lie during girl's rap about how she was gang raped
being forced to eat spoiled food and coolaid. I was made to eat a bologna sandwich with warm jelled mayonaise on it
lightning storms so close that you could hear a "click" before the lightning struck in the huge shed like building near Tyrone
exercising time on the hot, hot asphalt parking lot while old friends called out from accross the street
how hot the building was in summer
holding hands with girls
being 15 years old and referred to as a chick, a slut, a druggie, a liar, etc
seeing shelly limp back to the group, bruised and shaken after a beating in the office from her parents
planning a break for one of the doors, but not doing it because i knew i'd never make it passed the kids guarding the doors
having to use the restroom and shower with the door open at my oldcommer's house
the seedling table in the cafeteria at Lakewood
telling anyone not associated with the seed "i don't want to talk to you"
being the last of my 4 siblings to graduate. still don't know what i finally did right to graduate
being totally rejected by other seedlings after i graduated
watching seed graduates date and marry
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On 2005-01-23 18:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
seeing shelly limp back to the group, bruised and shaken after a beating in the office from her parents
This really pisses me off! Sorry, I've been reading Seed stuff and remembering those days and now I'm talking the talk. I hate when that happens.
But this does just rip it!
When I was a little kid coming up, The Seed was like our church and Libby was an elder. She told her story, Art told her story, the story became legend and is ingrained in my mind.
The story was that Libby was a thousand dollar a day (in 1970 dollars, mind you) heroin addict. Her parents had NO clue, till after her intake and open meeting talks and such. And yet, somehow, she landed up on the doorstep of The Seed. And we (I really thought of it like that when I was little) took her in, straightened her up and now all was flowers and butterflies for Art's adopted daughter, Libbi.
The parents had not supported her in her heroic effort to get straight. That's why Art had adopted her after she came of age. I don't even know if there's a legal instument to adopt an adult in Florida, but that's how the story goes and no one I would talk to or listen to would ever dream of questioning that.
Poor Libbi, abandoned by her cruel, selfish, idiot (millionaire) parents. What astounding luck for her that good old Art was willing to take her in.
I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that Art, Shelly or John or one of their cohorts spent a bit of time talking Libbi's dad into giving that beating.
What a fucked up bunch of people they were!
Libbi, on the off chance that you're reading this, as recently as about 3 years ago, I heard it through the grapevine that your real family would really like to hear from you. Please call them before they all kick off and the opportunity is lost forever.
If there's a worse idea going than locking people up for drug use, it's probably locking them up in close proximity to some tyranical altruist who wants to 'help' them with a problem that probably doesn't exist
-- Ginger Warbis
having had about all the help I can stand!
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anon, everyone of those memories are with me too because as you know, we witnessed them together. Thank you for posting that.
Ginger, it wasn't libby but a kid in our school, one of several during my time, that took one of those staff endorsed parent beatings in the backrooms of the st pete seed.
It really did happen...those are memories that have never faded over the years.
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The Seed saved my life, I have a great respect for Art and many of the staff members. I am grateful, I never felt brain washed, I knew what I needed and what I didn't and learned to act as if .. I had some rough times, but I truly needed what the Seed offered me. I also never really allowed myself to get to close to anyone at the Seed , But I listened and every now and them I heard what I needed. We see things from our own experiences and some remember mostly the bad and others remember the good. We should not refer to anyone on either side as rejects.
::boohoo:: ::boohoo:: ::
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I do remember Cookie coming in after me. I remember she was really sweet (until she made staff) and very pretty and felt bad for her. I thought it was right before my 14th birthday, but considering that until the past week remembered that I didn't smoke pot until after I left the seed, who knows. Could have been my 15th birthday, I will ask my one Aunt about the timeframe, she is one of the only ones in my family that believed me when I told her that the Seed was a really VERY bad time for me. I do know Cookie made staff while I was in the program. My mother to this day thinks she did the right thing. My little brother thinks it was good too, of course, this is the guy who has used so much cocaine that he doesn't even have a functioning nose!
I wasn't staff, probably because I was young and didn't have a dramatic enough story to tell or a family with big bucks or connections or was just mostly invisible to them. Everybody that came in after me graduated, and I mean everybody. There was a large gap in time that is still so fuzzy for me. I do remember after I was there a while we were asked to come up with a name for the new newsletter that they were going to write. I came up with the name Straight from the Seed, having no clue about the rivalry with Straight. I remember someone giving the Seed a truckload of broken marble that they laid in the "inner sanctum" upstairs. I think Libby was adopted by Art while I was there, but that is a little fuzzy too.
When I first found this forum some time ago, I was so pissed off, but after I moved and started reading it again, more things started coming back. It is so strange, I really don't know how I survived it at all.
I talked with my oldest daughter last night (who is a psych major at FAU) about the Seed, but even as close as we are, it is still hard to explain it to someone that wasn't there. She could in a way since she 2 years ago had to deal with a different type of cult from my ex's family. It was a so-called Christian cult in Tamarac area. Cults all have the same criteria, isolate your victims for the outside world, treat them like crap while in the next breath tell them you love them, and tell them that "they" are the only true way. Shit, they are buying up land in Alabama and food and water in special bins to survive the "last days." That is a story almost as bizarre as the Seed. Thank God, she has a mind of her own and knows better than to follow someone blindly.
Thanks to all for the kind words, it was therapeutic for me to even write what I did. It is amazing to me what the human mind will block for the sake of survival. Knowing I was not alone in my feeling about the Seed is....well..let's just say, you will never know what that means to me.
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When I was a little kid coming up, The Seed was like our church and Libby was an elder. She told her story, Art told her story, the story became legend and is ingrained in my mind.
Not any more Ginger. Lybbi has nothing to do with Art and Selly, and they have nothing to do with her. Antigen, you are quite behind the times in terms of the story's ending.
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Greg, There is a difference between being a "seed reject" and rejecting the seed. The former insinuating that one is inferior, defective and a failure. The latter suggesting that you know better and reject the seed and their bullshit dogma.
I am sorry I apparently don?t ?get it? and haven?t, as you said, ?been gracious enough to really listen to what happened to us rejects?. However, you saying ?rejecting the seed did not make you a failure in your life? is precisely what I was saying.
Sometimes you sound like staff. You certainly evoke some of those old feelings from me. Thanks a bunch.
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Anon....you seem to know alot. Please fill us in on what you know. Why is Lybbi not with Art and Shelly anymore? Were you part of the staff at one time?
I know there are people that read this forum that can spread some light on what really went on behind the scenes.
Help us here...we need to know.
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On 2005-01-24 08:33:00, Ican'tTalktoYou wrote:
"Greg, There is a difference between being a "seed reject" and rejecting the seed. The former insinuating that one is inferior, defective and a failure. The latter suggesting that you know better and reject the seed and their bullshit dogma.
I am sorry I apparently don?t ?get it? and haven?t, as you said, ?been gracious enough to really listen to what happened to us rejects?. However, you saying ?rejecting the seed did not make you a failure in your life? is precisely what I was saying.
Sometimes you sound like staff. You certainly evoke some of those old feelings from me. Thanks a bunch.
"
sorry, I never intended that. Listen, when you left the seed, they made you a reject. that is all I was saying. I think you make some great points, and again I apologize for any negativity you may have gotten from me.
I think you may have slightly missed my point about "those being gracious enough". I was specifically talking about seed supporters that have listened. That to me is really something special because these guys were trained to reject everyone that rejected the seed. I did not mean it as a slight to you and I regret it came across that way to you.
Have I mentioned I freaken love your username?
:grin:
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I understand Greg.
However, sometimes I wonder about my sensitivity level. Could it have been heightened because of all the yelling and put downs during all that time at seed? It would have to take a toll after a while, whether one is consciously aware of it or not. Wouldn?t you think?
Anyway, I just wanted to be supportive and uplifting to Survivor. Writing this stuff down can be very cathartic and unnerving at the same time.
As far as my username is concerned.....I can vividly remember the first time I had to say that to someone at school. My mouth felt like it was full of saw dust and I could feel the blood draining from my face. Yikes.
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I too remember my first day and first week back to school. It was also my entry into high school...9th grade. Over the summer HUNDREDS of kids from Baypoint Junior high and Lakewood had been sent to the seed,and the first day was open season on us. Jokes, ridicule, yelling in your face...everything was game. Meanwhile many kids got in trouble from other seedlings telling on them for things they did. It was a very unnerving, horrible experience for me...I didn't know which direction I was gonna get it from, and I felt all were my enemy, that I was pretty much alone in the world.
I understand your sensitivity. It seems many seedlings are overly sensitive and quick to jump on others. Yes I believe for some of us is a product of what we went thru. I am the same way and have been consciously trying to change it.
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9th grade was the pits!!I went back to school acutally in the 8th grade from the seed but that was a very small private school and no one hasseled me.
but when I went to South Broward in Hollywood forget it. I was ridiculed, pushed, books pushed out of my arms, one time in art class when the teacher left the room a few kids took a paint brush with paint and painted my face...all the time calling me brainwashed, seedling. I can not forget that. And defend myself..how could I..I wasn't allowed to talk to them much less fight them or push them away.
And then of course I got to look forward to lunchtime with the seed monitors!! We couldn;t just eat lunch no we had to rap!!!! And if they saw me with someone other then a seedling...like maybe a new friend that wasn't a druggie it didn't matter. I was not supposed to talk with anyone!!
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but when I went to South Broward in Hollywood forget it. I was ridiculed, pushed, books pushed out of my arms, one time in art class when the teacher left the room a few kids took a paint brush with paint and painted my face...all the time calling me brainwashed, seedling. I can not forget that. And defend myself..how could I..I wasn't allowed to talk to them much less fight them or push them away. ::bangin:: :grin:
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<"I was scared shitless. They said Oh i get it you 're not suppose to give me one and someone is probably watching right? I was pissed that they thought I was that weak and told them to fuck off. That was probably the 1st time I ever really did stand up for myself come to think about it.">
Were you pissed just because they 'thought' you were that weak or because you really were so weak. Maybe because you were doing and saying things not because it was what you really felt or thought, but what you had been taught or programmed to say by the authorities at the seed. Were you standing up for your 'self'? Or just following the instructions to be a good seedling and be what they expected? I'm not condemning you at all. I was the same way. I was weak....so weak that I went along with whatever I was told at the seed. Behaved how I was told to behave, repeated the tired canned phrases I was told to repeat.
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Personally I was afraid to do anything wrong. I was too old for school, but back at work I was in situations where I had to say things to people. Since I worked with Seed people, I knew I was being watched as well. Since I was afraid that I would have a 'druggy attitude,' if someone made a joke about drinking or getting high, or sex, or having fun, I had to make a disapproving face and say something, like, 'personally, I think that's fucked up.' It was awful. First of all, while it's great to 'take a stand,' it sucks to do it because you think you have to. Second, life is complex, and this approach renforced that black and white thinking. Finally, it separated the world into 'us and them.'
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That's because Antigen suffers the human comdition. Always like some type of artificialb inteligence. Quite annoying little anti-Christ. :smokin:
Government can do something for the people only in proportion as it can do something to the people
Thomas Jefferson.
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:nworthy:
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Plus, look at the whole episode that anon mentioned from outside the seed pov. Someone asks you for a cigarette. You refuse to give them one. They respond with 'Oh i get it you 're not suppose to give me one and someone is probably watching right? .' Whereupon you reply; "Fuck off."
Only a seedling could see this as standing up for yourself. A normal person would likely conclude that you are simply being a selfish jerk. I don't see anything in that exchange that warranted a 'fuck off'. (again, anon, this is not a personal criticism. I behaved the same way. It's how we were taught and expected to respond) When staff was asking us to do all of those things like mowing their yard, cleaning art's pool, running errands, etc. Where was all of that 'standing up for ourselves'? When we were stood up and yelled at and called all sorts of horrible names, where was all of that self-respect? Why didn't we tell them to 'fuck off'? All of this stuff is just seed-defined.
Going along with your old friends is being into acceptance and not standing up for yourself.
Going along with the group, staff or art...even when you might really have believed they were wrong....that's being a good seedling. Thinking of yourself as being 'cool' is just an image. Thinking of yourself as being 'straight' is not. A guy letting his hair grow long is doing it just to go along with the crowd because he's weak & into acceptance. The same guy cutting his hair at the seed isn't doing this to go along with the crowd or because he's weak and into acceptance. Using certain buzz words & phrases before the seed is trying to be cool. Using certain seed-approved buzz words & phrases while at the seed isn't. Right.
Cleveland, I'm beginning to wonder if a certain personality type(s) was more prone to find the seed repressive than others. You and another here mentioned being an artist at some point. I took that up as well after the seed. Just as a hobby, portraits for friends and sold a few over the years. Do you suppose artistic types (whatever that may be) were more prone to reject seed ideology on some level?
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Marshall, I'm with you 100%. I think different people responded differently to the Seed - there are some people that, at that age anyway, just wanted to be told what to do. There were other people that wanted to have power over others, some who just wanted to go along.
But I think there were others, who's idealism was used to get them involved. Like your post where you say Lybbi defended your 'peace, love and happiness' ideals. To me, the Seed seemed in some ways, like that 60s communal experience I dreamt of when I was in my teens. Saving the world was a very appealing ideal, and I think one that most 'artistic' types, 'who see the world not as it is, but as it should be,' would find appealing.
Post Seed, I love all types of art, music, crafts, cooking, whatever - anything that is creative. At the seed, I was very limited in expressing this impulse. I did a lot of cooking there, though, and learned to make plaintains, black beans and rice, and cuban chicken - courtesy of my newcomer Mandy. Also played a lot of ping pong!
I remember reading somewhere that intellegent people are suseptible to cults because they are able to see both sides of an issue. Personally I think the Seed went out of it's way to appeal to everybody, either thru fear, love, power, or idealism. Take your pick!
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Frankly, I repeated the seed repertoire down there when I was in school because I was scared of ending up back on the front row (which I eventually did later on....but that's another story).
Once I graduated the seed and went back to Jacksonville those words never passed my lips again. No one in the sr. high school I went to had even heard of the seed. However, I must add that I did not go to the school that I should have gone to, where all my old friends were going. I transferred to a school across town. I doubt that I would have told them I couldn?t talk to them either?..I just would have ended up on the front row again sooner than I did.
When I was in the seed in?73 there were not very many people from Jacksonville there?that I was aware of.
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Anon...
I have to say that because I was a seedling at that point of my life...I did not defend myself I took what was thrown at me. Do I blame the seed? I was told that I was not to talk with druggies...period. It was not free will mind you..it was "do not talk to druggies" I did not.
I was the perfect person to mind control..I was 13 years old for gosh sakes!! Yes the seed had alot to do with problems that I had encountered in school.
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At Lakewood High in St Pete the saying was " The Seed Sucks!". I couldn't agree more. Too bad I was in panic mode as a little 15 year old girl and didn't dare have an opinion contrary to the seedling cult. It did in fact suck, didn't it? :silly:
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Anonymous: I was also at Lakewood between 1973 and 1977. Before that, Baypoint Jr High and Elem. Not a seedling, but perhaps we knew each other. what year did you graduate? :grin:
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you were in my class, the class of 77. I left in 11th grade for ft lauderdale
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Cleveland / wally, I have a hard time comprehending how the seed functioned in it's later years. Maybe you or someone else from that time period can help fill in the blanks. Without newcomers coming into the program I don't even see the point of keeping the doors open. How did it make any money? It seems it should have closed as soon as the last crop of newcomers graduated. So, at some point everyone was off of their program and the seed was all oldtimers? Did they still have raps? I keep hearing how graduates had a relationship without permission from staff. That blows my mind. When I was there, if you graduated you were free to have a relationship at any time thereafter...no permission or approval needed. At graduation, you were finished with the seed and only continued to participate if you chose to do so. Most did not. In the later years, it sounds as if no-one ever really graduated. You were expected to stay and still be under the control of staff. The cultic aspects of the seed were already apparent when I was there in the 70's, but it seems that part grew stronger in the final years. I understand it became a small group again...like the very early days. Did art ever lead raps in the later years?
I find the evolution of the seed from 'hippie love fest' as greg or someone put it, to a large, strict, synanon-type organization to a self-enclosed cult group that no longer even treated new drug abusers...fascinating. So, staff regarded unapproved relationships amongst graduates as 'back stabbing'? (BTW, I remember a Laura being on staff. Tall, dark-skinned gal. Very soft-spoken.) In the early years money wasn't a big issue. You could pay installments or on a sliding scale. No-one was turned away due to lack of funds. It was that way when I was there. Then, at some point it became all cash up front or forget it. So many changes. Are there others that I'm missing?
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i graduated lakewood in 75
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75
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Anonymous: I had lots of friends in your class. Jim Lilly, Paul Scherffius, Lynn Funk and many others whose names escape me. I was always a little jealous of the seedlings as they seened to really have it together. Funny how growing up changes the way you see things. My parents would not admit I had a problem and let me flounder with it. My druggie days ended at 20 when I ran into a car and really hurt a passenger in the other car.
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Marshall,
The Seed was still taking in newcomers from '78 - '85, but it was at the rate of about 1 a month on average I would guess. Since it was voluntary only, they were typically siblings, or the courts recommended as an alternative for something. And, one of the consequences of this was that you were, if you chose to stick around, always on your program. Oldtimers were expected to work in Seed-approved jobs and live in Seed apartments, guys in one group, 'chicks' in another, and staff might move you from one apartment to another for whatever reason...you pooled money to pay the bills, but didn't contribute financially to the Seed itself. Graduates donated tons of time, though, because giving 100% of your non-work 'free time' to the Seed - doing errands, attending raps, giving newcomers a ride - was considered a privilege. Social activities were limited to Seed-sanctioned functions, usually endless games of baseball or football, with Art's team always winning. At home, if there was no newcomer, guys would work on cars, or mow lawns, or do carpentry, while girls would 'cook, clean or sew.' There were yearly 'talent shows' and kids would practice for those. I understand they got more and more elaborate as the years went by.
A few of the high-status graduates, usually staff, jr. staff, or ex-staff, started businesses. Some of them married in Seed-sanctioned ceremonies. These people hung out together in a tight group, and socialized with Art and his wife.
When the Seed broke up, (see elsewhere on this site) the Seed people scattered. By this time, most of the long-termers were married or established in businesses. A few of them even married non-Seed graduates.
I guess you could use the word 'cult,' but it seems to me to be more like an immigrant family with a strong patriarch - you know, a tight, closed family that rewards members with 'love,' but also exacts a price in loyalty and conformity. People who spent a long time at the Seed were different from the kids who went on the program, graduated and moved on.
_________________
Wally Gator[ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2005-01-27 07:49 ]
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I agree with Cleveland. The seed I moved down to Ft Lauderdale to join in '82 was very different than the Seed I graduated from in '78. I went down there in '82 hoping to work construction (I thought all the guys in those days worked construction) and live in the houses. Well, when I arrived I was expecting to see a few hundred graduates like I had seen before. Instead, there were maybe 80. Most of the construction guys had moved along and I was told I would have to come into the Seed everyday. This really threw me because I didn't like the raps. I was told that now all oldtimers are basically always on their program as a way of life. It wasn't long before I was called ino tthe backoffice, not the last time either and told to either change my attitude or get my stuff together and they would drop me off at the airport. At that point Something inside of me told me they (staff) were full of shit and I thought "hey, you told me I could come down here and live as a graduate and now you're saying I can't". I thought "I'll show em". So, I decided to play the game and when I thought that the Seed loved me as much they ever did or could, "I'll leave". For whatever reason I wasn't gonna have them kick me out.
This took about 3 yrs. But, when I was driving my old oldsmobile up the road north, the day I left. I was never happier.
God bless Art!
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Wtaylorg, you had the perspective of coming BACK to the Seed. For those of us there, when the Seed was transitioning away from a Program you graduated from to a lifestyle you never left, it was like that analogy of putting a frog in a pot and slowly raising the heat - the frog will never jump out, just slowly boil to death because it doesn't realize what's happening.
I can picture you in that gold-colored 60s car you inherited - I'm trying to remember when you left - was it before me? I left October 30th of 1985...
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Hey Cleveland:
I left in May '85, a few months before you. I told Bob W. I wanted to go to school esp. Art School and he said, "let me check with Lybbi, tom". I remember thinking "They won't let me", then I thought "I'm not asking".
But, I waited and the next morning I met with Lybbi, one of the handful of times I ever talked to her. She said "where do you want to go to school?" I said up north!
Well, I called my Mom and borrowed $500.00. I had no money. I hadn't been allowed to work in mos. Good for your self esteem, huh!
Man, even though I was apprehensive, I knew my life had to get better than this.
Former gate watcher; 3-6 am shift, spend the nighter.
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<"you were, if you chose to stick around, always on your program">
Do you mean this literally? No-one graduated the program anymore? It sounds like the line between oldcomer and oldtimer became blurred to the point of nonexistence. This was very different from the way things worked when I was there.
<"At home, if there was no newcomer, guys would work on cars, or mow lawns, or do carpentry, while girls would 'cook, clean or sew.' ">
Sounds like the amish or some fundamentalist group. Another attempt to turn the cultural clock back. Very sexist. I wonder what the reasons were behind these changes? Did staff find that too many graduates were straying from the seedling path & decide to exert greater control?
<" People who spent a long time at the Seed were different from the kids who went on the program, graduated and moved on.">
While I was there, it was considered normal & healthy to graduate and go on with your life...choosing where you will live, where to work and who you would socialize with. It sounds like a parent that became so neurotic that they discouraged their children from ever leaving the nest. The words 'cult' and 'brainwash' are extreme and black & white. Maybe increasing cultishness would be a better fit.
Wtaylorg :
<". I was told that now all oldtimers are basically always on their program as a way of life.">
That's sick and scary. If I'd gone back and encountered that, I think I would have wondered how far away the black tennis shoes and kool-aid were. I can better understand the wide divergence of opinion about the seed now. There really was not a single 'seed' that we can speak of. ...rather a series of seeds that changed over the years.
Lots of people have gotten off drugs via scientology. (They're very anti-drug) I'm sure those people that were helped by scientology or similar religious and quasi-religious groups are grateful and credit them with saving their lives too and would readily defend the organization. This does not negate the other, more problematic aspects that may be present though.
The seed I attended taught a lot of good things. Who can argue that honesty is bad? Or empathy and sensitivity? It seems many of us were able to sift the useful stuff from the crud and use some of those teachings in a positive manner. I'm sure the same could be said of many such groups.
One could be kidnapped by terrorists and forced to study the quran at gunpoint. This doesn't mean there are not some good teachings in the quran. But this in no way justifies the act of kidnapping or means used to convey the teachings.
Cleveland and Wtaylorg, thanks for your info.
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This excerpt is from "Cults in our Midst" by Margaret Singer:
"We can see how transformations occur when the six principles are skillfully put into play by cult leaders and cultic groups. For example:
Consistency. If you have made a commitment to the group and then break it, you can be made to feel guilty.
Reciprocity. If you accept the group's food and attention, you feel you should repay them.
Social proof. If you look around in the group, you will see people behaving in particular ways. You imitate what you see and assume that such behavior is proper, good, and expected.
Authority. If you tend to respect authority, and your cult leader claims superior knowledge, power, and special missions in life, you accept him as an authority.
Liking. If you are the object of love bombing and other tactics that surround you, make you feel wanted and loved, and make you like the people in the group, you feel you ought to obey these people.
Scarcity. If you are told that without the group you will miss out on living a life without stress; miss out on attaining cosmic awareness and bliss; miss out on changing the world instantly or gaining the ability to travel back in time; or miss out on whatever the group offers that is tailored to seem essential to you, you will feel you must buy in now."
Sounds like a pretty good fit to me.
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when i hear cleveland and night-shifter talk about being "allowed" to do things, it surprises me 'cause i thought at seed you would "get ur life back" and then simply cud come and go as you please or lived their makin' decisions with the tools you had received. why were u askin' for permission to do everything? how about dating, or having fun (sex), could you be straight, or bi, or gay? could you invite people to your place that were not from there? could you fall in luv with a girl and get married? could you have your own religion and atten church each week? Could you watch whatever you wanted on T.V.? What about going out? Couldou just take off and drive on your own or go on vacation whenever you wanted? IF not, what did you do all that time for years and years and years?
By the way, night-shifter, what do u mean by night-shiftin?
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On 2005-01-25 10:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
I remember at school when I first went back-someone asked me for a smoke. I was scared shitless.
Scared of what?I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment, to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure.
--Clarence Darrow, American lawyer
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Doing anything outside of the approval by the Seed hierarchy was flat wrong, and you risked being expelled. There was some leeway for high status people, who could have a bit more freedom than the typical oldcomer. But the run-of-the-mill seedling devoted their time 100% to the group. Work, rap session, baseball/football, home - ALL with other Seed people. No, there was no dating unless Art approved of it - not without being asked to leave the group. No, there were no vacations that I was aware of. Here I was in south Florida, and I only went to the beach with the group to play football, I never sailed or hiked or water-skied. ONCE, (in 7 years) I went with a group of guys to Key West and snorkled, and ONCE fished in the Everglades. Both times with high-status former staff members. NEVER on my own - NEVER with a non-Seed friend. Never had a date, went to a concert, wore a non-Seed t-shirt, visited a museum, had a picnic! SEX - are you kidding me? you mean with someone other than my right (maybe left) hand? And that was 'having my head in the gutter' so I felt guilty about it too. I traded my freedom for the security of being 'loved' and the promise of developing a 'higher awareness' and 'saving the world.' In return, I had a non-stop schedule of work, chores around the house, and 'helping out' around the Seed.
SURE, we played ping-pong, watched TV, and other 'normal' activities. Amish? No, but it's not too far off...
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On 2005-01-27 07:47:00, cleveland wrote:
There were yearly 'talent shows' and kids would practice for those.
Kids? Did everybody refer to non staff as kids? Or were there actually minors there? The last struggles of a great superstition are very frequently the worst.
--Andrew Dickson White (1832-1918)
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There were minors. The age range of newcomers was as young as 12 or 13, on up to early 20s, a few a bit older. There weren't too many though. We called ourselves "Seed Kids" but I would have never called a staff person a "kid." Staff were turning 35 when I was there, which seemed unbelievably old. Jr. staff were early 20s. Art was 54 years old when I came in in 1979 - just eight years older than I am now! Yikes!
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On 2005-01-27 12:58:00, cleveland wrote:
"Doing anything outside of the approval by the Seed hierarchy was flat wrong, and you risked being expelled.
Oh that I understand. I remember sitting all alone in front of the Straight building on Cattlemen Road waiting for a school bus. I was feeling scared and maybe a little guilty (or maybe into my head about not feeling guilty?) that someone might catch me humming a Rod Stewart song. Rock? Hardly. But what can I say, it was stuck in my head that day. (It was Maggie Mae, maybe there was a reason)
Anyway, I should have quoted more context.
On 2005-01-25 10:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"but when I went to South Broward in Hollywood forget it. I was ridiculed, pushed, books pushed out of my arms, one time in art class when the teacher left the room a few kids took a paint brush with paint and painted my face...all the time calling me brainwashed, seedling. I can not forget that. And defend myself..how could I..I wasn't allowed to talk to them much less fight them or push them away. ::bangin:: :grin: "
I wonder if the person who posted this would answer my question. Not trying to be combative here. (had my fill of that in the Straight forum lately) I'm just curious what this person was scared of before they got pissed.
A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
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So Wally were you ambedectrious with any other sports or anything ::drummer::
I had to say it.
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On 2005-01-27 13:10:00, cleveland wrote:
We called ourselves "Seed Kids" but I would have never called a staff person a "kid." Staff were turning 35 when I was there, which seemed unbelievably old. Jr. staff were early 20s. Art was 54 years old when I came in in 1979 - just eight years older than I am now! Yikes!"
So were Jr. staff kids or not? And can anyone who came along later or stayed longer tell me if they still keep to this practice? I know it probably seems like nitpicking to some. But I think it's interesting if Art and Shelly and, I suppose, Lybbi had people in, say, their late 20's calling themselves and thinking of themselves as kids.
Babylon in all its desolation is a sight not so awful as that of the human mind in ruins.
-- Scrope Davies: Letter to Thomas Raikes, May 25, 1835.
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Actually it was me that posted that Antigen. Honestly I was afraid of someone rejecting me. I guess Honestly I can still feel the same way about things today and yes I can take it back to early childhood my father never really liked me i wasn't good at sports my sister that was a year younger than me was better at everything than me like school and sports and was totally popular and also looked older than me (there is no justice I look 10 years older than her now) ::boohoo:: So ya all that played into it but.. for once I was like f*** it I'm not talking to you because I don't want to, I'm not giving you a smoke because I don't want too. It felt kinda good at the time to feel like I was siding with the good guys for a change. & no I didn't think I was better than anyone although I know there was a chance of this. I just for once had a good feeling about myself in my gut that I was OK and I didn't need to kiss ass.
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On 2005-01-27 13:41:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
"Actually it was me that posted that Antigen.
Oh I know. But I won't blow your cover, ever. It's policy around here.
Honestly I was afraid of someone rejecting me. I guess Honestly I can still feel the same way about things today and yes I can take it back to early childhood my father never really liked me i wasn't good at sports my sister that was a year younger than me was better at everything than me like school and sports and was totally popular and also looked older than me (there is no justice I look 10 years older than her now) ::boohoo:: So ya all that played into it but.. for once I was like f*** it I'm not talking to you because I don't want to, I'm not giving you a smoke because I don't want too. It felt kinda good at the time to feel like I was siding with the good guys for a change. & no I didn't think I was better than anyone although I know there was a chance of this. I just for once had a good feeling about myself in my gut that I was OK and I didn't need to kiss ass. "
Well glad to hear it. I remember the first time I really started to feel my oats that way. It was before the program (or at least before I had been a client) and I'd been bullied relentlessly by this one girl. Then she had friends (we had once been friends, so that really hurt!) Anyway, I just got to the end of what I could stand. I refused to turn snitch and just called her bluff in the locker room in front of all the other girls. Everyone was shocked. Never thought I had it in me.
The glory of it all came when some of the other girls suggested telling the coach, which is what I expected to happen. But one of the golden girls, by that I mean honor roll and student government, spoke up for me. "Well, did you think she should just take it forever?"
She and I had never been friends or enemies, just classmates w/ different .... lifestyles, for lack of a better word. But I'd always respected her very much, so it meant a lot to me.
Social proof, or peer pressure, is not always an unhealthy thing. The hazing stopped right then and there w/o any body getting really hurt. And I walked a little taller thereafter.
Here's freedom to him who would read;
Here's freedom to him who would write;
None ever feared that the truth should be heard,
But them that the truth would indict.
--author unknown (circa 1914)
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I was at The Seed from 1980 - closing. I graduated four months after I entered the program. The culture at the seed definitely changed after the 90's, which seems to be of interest here, so I will focus on the 90?s era. I will be as balanced / objective in my statements as I can possibly be.
First, let me say that I did not witness any of the "physical abuses," claimed by some of the 70?s generation in the forum. I recognize that I was not there before 1980, also.
The closeness experienced by some that I lived with was extremely tight by the mid 90's. We were in a sense "like family," although now I see it as an illusion. It is, however, inevitable to not have felt a "deep bond," when you lived with some people for close to 20 years.
There was no doubt a strong element of a personality cult. For instance, many of you speak of L. as someone who, in the earlier years, established her presence but was simply another staff member (perhaps a quite a bit stronger than others). By the 90's she definitely "sat on the right hand of God" for many that were still around. As a matter of fact, for some she became a living myth that was more respected than art (for sure by the late 90's).
I was one of the followers; it is as simple as that. I do believe that one of the reasons I was not in any "inner circle" was because I was not a doctor or lawyer or had money. I made my way on my own and academically accomplished my career and personal goals despite, as previous have claimed, that staff did try to hold me back from accomplishing those goals.
(to be continued)
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Hey Whatever,
I hope to hear more from you. I really appreciate your posting.
I have learned so much from this forum, that's all I can say. It's a gift to be able to be myself, to think my thoughts, to choose my influences.
I used to feel ashamed of my time at the Seed, that it was evidence of my being a loser. Not anymore. Especially through this forum, I have come to terms with the years that I spent as a part of the Seed. I was just trying to be happy and good, and to believe in something.
So, keep it coming!
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The 90?s was not an era of an ?Amish? sort of life. On the contrary, some at seed were professionals and, believe me, ate out at expensive restaurants, purchased expensive homes, etc. However, the real money, big money of the 90?s was in the inner circle and the businesses they had webbed. Basically, the inner circle, which were some of the key staff members and A. (as you can imagine) had connived themselves into business that were worth more than you could ever imagine. The money they were making from just simply being presidents and vice presidents of businesses was enough to keep them happy for the rest of their lives.
By the way if you haven't figured it out . ..this seed thing, even the word of it, is meaningless and disgusting to me. .. can u believe i allowed a bunch of money hungry strangers to run my life?? what a joke... they are white trash at its finest to me... or better yet . . .ignorant asssholes that many did not even have a high school a joke ?
(to be continued)
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Hey cleveland, can you call me now i need o talk to you? give ur e-mail so i can give u my number
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wrightwwAThotmailDOTcom
Does that make sense to you?
Use @ for AT and . for DOT
I'm doing this just so I don't get my email on a thousand list for spam. Probably too late.
Or choose a user name here and I can Private Message you...
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cleveland, i sent u an e-mail. sorry to dissapoint u . did u get it?
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On 2005-01-27 19:42:00, Anonymous
By the way if you haven't figured it out . ..
(to be continued)
"
Please do so..... :grin:
By the way, we really are collectively interested in hearing your story. Please choose a username and tell us more...
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Looking back on what I?ve written so far, I?d like to elaborate on two points about the 90's:
1) I really have nothing against anyone who made money in the group, just as I?m sure much of corporate America would have little problem with the ?business as usual? mentality, even if perhaps business tactics were probably not always Kosher. Actually, all the business politics of the 90?s were not my thing since, once again, I was not in the ?stew.? As far as I was concerned, those problems that did emerge as a result of business, were really the "business" of those involved in business themselves.
2) The second item I would like to clarify is simply that I lost my ?objectivity,? on the last few lines of my post, so I will retract the last part of my post, at this time and look for more accurate words to discuss the powerlessness associated with listening to others for over 20 years when it comes to personal lifelong decisions (Thank God, I often listened with a deaf ear, especially the last years).
(to be continued)
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Now to move on . . .by the 90?s, I really believed that these were my friends for life. I was wrong. During all those years, I had gained the ?illusion? of confidence since in robot-style I had accomplished outside successes, but deep inside I was a little boy that had never grown up enough to simply say, ?No. I don?t agree with you.? And I do mean that I could not stand up to the ?inner core.? So then, ?Why was I still around the group to the end ?? The answer for me is very simple. I was afraid to say to staff, ?I do not want to live around you people. I want to live on my own.? Fear, fear, and more fear . . . It has been only in the past several years that I have been happy on my own. The 90?s for me was a time where I could taste the freedom that I had so longed for all those years, but it took a decade to even start my own journey.
Yes, there were positive aspects of the experience, but I sold out my sense of self for over 20 years. Did the seed save me from total destruction? I really don?t know how to answer that except to say that in the 80?s a few people I knew died of AIDS and drugs. Could it have happened to me if the Seed had not come along? Possibly, and if that is the case there is a part of me that is grateful as I appreciate others in my life that have had an impact on who I am, but I totally disagree with the conditional love style promoted at that place. It is so ingrained in the ?Do or Die? culture many promoted (including myself at the beginning) that to this day some believe that you should not forgive those that have stood up to you as if they had betrayed you. The funny part, is that the unwillingness to forgive others and understand different points of view were two of the most damaging consequences of the ?brainwashing.? Recently, I woke up and it occurred to me how ?well? they trained me to criticize and judge others without really looking in the mirror myself. Wow!! The scary part was believing that there was this ?truth? or ?justification? to not forgiving others, especially to hold grudges to the grave.
I do not want to be that person that is afraid of what THEY think. It just doesn?t work for me anymore. I realized that the last days of the seed taught me lessons about myself . . .how I had allowed myself to be ?conned? that there is a hierarchy of human beings, that some really are better than others, that some are so strong that they don?t need to be loved or they don?t need to cry or desperately seek shelter when they feel alone. I was supposed to be O.K. the whole time, and now I realize that I am me, the me that I was not for years and years because I did not fit into the mold that others insisted I fit into . . .
I can see too how I was like some of you, especially the artists, who can see beauty in so much around us, but that did not count since (as it has been reported) it meant you were not good enough. . .It seemed like centuries went by and lived in fear of letting the group know that I was gay. Wow! That was a big one since only very few were interested in really listening to my story, that part of the story. I always wondered what type of ?therapy? I was being exposed to that did not embrace talking about everything about me since I was told that I really shouldn?t bring that up in the group or if I did it was to be brought up in the context of that ?IF it weren?t for The Seed? I would have ended up being gay . . .but the truth is that because I was not what others in power really accepted as good enough when it came to masculine stuff, then I was not good enough, tough enough to be part of the inner core, essentially I was not smart enough either, of course. (to be continued)
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Welcome Anon,
We almost wound up in the same soup together (though I doubt I would have stayed) I'm really not sure why my mom sent me to Straight instead of the Seed, but she did it in 1980. So I'm guessing we're about the same age and from the same area. And I spent most of the last 20 years living in and around Ft. Lauderdale, often wondering what the hell was going on w/ The Seed.
I once ran into a couple of seedlings at a doughnut shop. They were buying around 4 dozen doughnuts, I think, and that's the clearest idea I had of how many people were still in there.
I'm starting to get an idea of what life in The Seed post `70's must have been like. At the same time, I've gotten to know a few people who's entire families were very much pro Straigt, long after they all graduated or whatever. Some of these people to this day, 20 years and more later, still have that to deal w/ from their families.
A good friend pointed out not long ago that one valid category or variation on the TC theme is whether they focus more on controling the client or the family. I think The Seed focused a lot on the client, even discouraging family contact. Straight did it a little differently. Us kids just had to suck it up and go along because they had such a firm hold on our parents. Very few former Straightlings are really pro-program today, though some are ambivalent.
Anyway, welcome, glad you happened along here and I look forward to learning more from you.
If you ask the Government for the right to assemble you deserve to be told no .
--Jim Lesczynski, Manhattan LP chair, on "unorganized" gathering @ Central Park
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Anon - I am so proud of you my friend for being yourself. Even after all of these years. Since at the Seed we needed to conform at any cost, it was difficult enough to deal with 'normal' heterosexuality, but to be at the Seed and know that you are gay? And not be able to talk about it, much less except yourself? I can imagine that this caused a lot of pain. As for me, since I don't fit that 'good at sports, tough-guy' mold either that was the standard endorsed by the Seed (and my whole school experience up to college)I can totally sympathize. So I too wondered, how come I am not good enough? And you must have too. All of those years.
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Anon, thanks bunches for your info on the seed circa 90's. BTW, my reference to being amish wasn't related to the financial aspect but rather towards the rigid division of male / female roles. (women expected to sew, cook, clean and men expected to do work such as carpentry or automotive...such as cleveland described.) Staff or inner core being wealthy is also really at odds with my experience in the 70's. Group staff lived very simply and received only a small stipend as I recall....or at least that's what we were told.
So what may have started with misguided idealism ended up being all about money? That figures. This seems to happen over and over in our society. But, if I understand you all correctly, the later seed was at least all voluntary, so no-one was coerced into joining or staying. The whole enterprise just strikes me as sad and pathetic now. The evolution of the seed in many ways parallels that of the synanon organization, though it never prgressed to a full-blown religion. The turning inwards or imploding into itself...where members never really leave their program, is very similar.
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anon, thanks so much for that post.
You must have been tormented having to hide your sexuality all those years. But on further thought here, so did the hetero people...they in effect castrated everyone mentally.
You however must have felt you had a big secret that wouldn't be accepted.
I hope those that feel all lovey dovey about what the seed did for them understand what you must of gone thru for 20 years.
Welcome thru all that crap, and welcome here. I would love you to choose a username.
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Let me address Greg?s comments on sexuality. I will never forget my first day at The Seed, I was seventeen years old. After the intake, the search, etc., I was walked upstairs by a staff member, and with his arm around me he said in a gentle, yet matter of fact way, ?Oh by the way don?t worry about being gay. We were all gay before coming into The Seed.? At that moment, I really thought, ?Wow, maybe they have some magical cure here, or I will undergo some transformation that will cure me of this problem.? Remember, it was 1980, and many were just starting to come out (a few years before Madonna). For several years, I tried my best to repress it believing the dime-store responses I was being given in the back office every time I had a ?problem? with the gay issue. Usually my ?problem? would service after struggling for weeks into my head because I had fantasized about some movie star or another guy in the group. By the way there weren?t many around to fantasize about although several strutted their stuff as if they were hot shit. As time passed, I continued to pray and use all the tools on every wall downstairs and upstairs. . .and I even remember when I would spend the night at the building, I would read all of those inspirational signs hoping that some day soon, maybe by the time I turned 25, this would go away because THEY said it would, and I was told by more than one staff member, ?Do the right thing, and the right thing will happen? or ?Be grateful; you have no real problems.? The feelings I?m describing were from 80-85 (the more repressed years for me.) After that I went to school, even though I was persuaded several times not to go since ?I did not have a clear purpose as to why I wanted to go.? Thank God, I bit the bullet on that and did not listen to a fucking thing in relation to going to school since I ended spending 4 years in college and 6 more years in graduate school, which for me represented the doors to intellectual freedom, something they definitely tried to repress, but it was O.K. for some selected members that had received staff?s blessing to pursue their careers (few and far between in the 80?s). Anyway, school was an eye-opener for me; it was as if I lived a double-life. I was alienated by staff for the first few years of going to school, and my intentions were questioned several times as to whether I had made the right decision. They basically treated my career goals as Mickey Mouse compared to some of the more ?gifted members.? Looking back on all that mumbo jumbo, ?gifted? meant you came from some family with a large inheritance or social status, such as the town knew who your grandparents were in Cleveland or something. To be honest, by the time I was in school and working for several years, the roles switched some for me because I felt I had infiltrated the cult of the brainless when I was at home with the guys I lived with or sitting in the group. . .actually, at times it was laughable to see how one-dimensional many of them really were, but I plugged along anyway. I liked to think that the reason I continued to follow was out of ?loyalty,? but in reality it was the fear of the unknown. This was all I knew from 17 on and leaving for me felt like jumping off a cliff. Despite the critical thinking graduate school demanded of me, when I was at home or in the group, I was emotionally the 17 year old that walked in many years ago, especially when I was confronted by those with power. So back to the gay thing, well as became more and more poisoned with school, I started to come out to one of the guys on the football beach outings. He was married, and we ere very close friends, actually I felt a strong brotherly connection to him, and he accepted me. It was like our secret. He really was the best thing at that time for me because it was like I came alive from knowing that someone knew. See in the 90?s there were cliques. Even though for years we said, ?At The Seed there are no cliques and no best friend, and the best friend you will ever have is Art,? there were people grandfathering certain people to move ahead. . .at all levels. So for a long time my football buddy was the friend that knew, everything. That empowered me a great deal. . .I felt that it did not matter that I was invisible to many, what mattered was that someone knew I was gay, and we talked about everything . . .we would be playing football, and I would tell him what I loved about guys (in detail), and he would tell me what he liked about sex, etc. Later more people found out, little by little, and finally one person, who had special status with Art came out of the closet, and then it appeared to be ?O.K.? by the late 90?s for many if you were gay since the blessing came from the top. The 90?s were in many respects problematic and suffocating (in terms of Seed politics), yet more liberal on social issues: everyone ?had? to be a democrat and ?had? to be pro-choice and ?had? to think it was O.K. to have sex before marriage as long as you had received the blessing, something I certainly did not receive on many issues. As good as that all sounds though, there were many undercurrents of hypocrisy to the new liberal ways and the only thing that really counted, when push came to shove, was if you were one of the ?shrewd? money-makers.
(to be continued) by the way, I don?t know how to pick a user name Greg.
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Oh, just click on the "Register" link in the list to the left and fill it out. You don't have to use a real email address or anything else if you don't want to. Down side is just that you'd have to ask one of us to change your password if you ever lost it and you wouldn't get notifications for private messages or for watched threads.
Every sensible man, every honorable man, must hold the Christian sect in horror.
--Francois Marie Arouet "Voltaire", French author and playwright
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"didn't contribute financially to the Seed itself".
there were yearly donations offered at Christmas time, and those that were financially prosperous were definately thanked "status-wise" for there generosity.