Fornits

Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: GregFL on September 23, 2002, 06:51:00 PM

Title: More Trivia
Post by: GregFL on September 23, 2002, 06:51:00 PM
In February of 1973, The Seed was claiming 2900 kids that had been in the program.

By December, 1973, that number had swelled to 5000.

Thats is an increase of 2100 kids in less than 10 months.
The Seed had locations in Miami (closed in late 1973), Ft Lauderdale(closed late 2001), and St Petersburg(closed October 1975) at the time.

The Seed announced in June of 1973 the opening of three new seed locations;

Ft Pierce was due to open immediately with 100 "applicants"(closed after one year, don't have the month yet)

Ft Meyers within 90 days (never opened?)

And a panhandle location (never opened?)

The Seed also later opened a Stow Ohio branch that lasted only a month because Art moved in before he got a variance granted and when granted, a condition was attached that the police and Fire inspectors had access for routine inspections. Art, true to form, refused to allow police and Fire inspectors access and moved out of the building., they moved to cleveland where 60 kids were enrolled, and a tool and die company gave them  30 acres in a nearby suburb of Cleveland called Aurora under the condition that they use it. They  planned to operate it as soon as "economically feasible". I no little after this.

The man who donated the use of the St Pete Morgan yacht building, Will Caruthers, tried to get Art to open in his town (Dallas, TX) but apparently those plans fell thru.

Arts ambitious plans were to open a seed location in every major US city or area.

Anyone in Ohio that cares to do a little research as to when and why they closed, please email me or post a response.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: CW on September 23, 2002, 08:23:00 PM
greg, i am really happy that you are constantly updating and keeping things current. It seems alot of people (like me) start their stories but don't continue. I have learned so much from reading this form that I feel I am able to put my past behind me. I know that there are peolple out there who believe me and know that what happened. If is funny how even family members don't remember things the same way. Your sister has been very kind, I am hoping to see her soon, I have been gone and just got back so I have been checking the mail. This site has been a life saver for me. I can't thank you enough for turning me onto it. I have heard the reasurance I have needed for years on this site. I have learned I am not alone. I can remember my friends with fondness, knowing they did not know what was happening either. Thank you for opening the door to a healing heart inside of me. As sad as it is, it is so nice not to be alone.

Watching kids get taken to the seed was like watching Hitler gathering people onto the train. WHY DID NO BODY STOP THIS INSANITY SOONER.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: GregFL on September 23, 2002, 08:39:00 PM
One of the things that has been a comfort to me kathy, is to know that people indeed did try to stop it, and were sucessfull to some extent.

In Miami, they pretty much ran Art out of town.

In St Pete, the press (Margaret Leonard and Eleanor Randolph and the editorial staff) were instrumental in preventing untold numbers of thoughtfull parents from putting their kids there, and perhaps responsible for the Judges to stop sentencing kids there as well. The negative publicity was relentless. The Times deserves an award for their brave handling of the story back then.

The Stow county commission in Ohio insisted by use variance that the police and Fire officials be allowed to "inspect" without notice. This in effect closed that location.

The congress was instrumental in getting the NIDA to deny funds to the Seed. When the money dried up, so did Art.

The NIDA came out with "concerns" that had to do with the treatment of the kids (us) and in fact, coined the term "the cult of the seed".
Prior to this, I don't think people were calling it a cult, but instead were calling the techniques "peer pressure".

kathy, I am so glad you are getting something out of this. It makes it all worthwile. Lets keep it up, learn as much as we can, and continue to move forward. When you run into all those seedlings in and around St Pete, write down this link and hand it to them and tell them we want their story and participation.

Thank you.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: blue morphine on September 24, 2002, 05:37:00 AM
i`ll never forget in miami there was a childrens program on television called "skipper chuck". well the day or the week that the seed was run out of town mr. skipper chuck(his real name was chuck zink) came on the program (now mind you this was a childrens show with popeye cartoons etc.)  he came on, and on live tv or 1 day tape delay i guess and ridiculed everybody who was responsible for running the seed out of town.. it was something to see and hear thats for sure. im guessing it was around 73 or later..

 anybody remember this??



 blue

[ This Message was edited by: blue morphine on 2002-09-24 14:51 ]
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on September 24, 2002, 02:34:00 PM
I used to watch popeye as a kid that was simulcast from Los Angeles on KTLA channel 5.  There used to be a skipper type guy with a blue skipper type hat that would take doodles that children sent in and make art pictures of them---was this the same Skipper Chuck?
Curious.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: blue morphine on September 24, 2002, 05:47:00 PM
no not the same guy anonymous.. this guy was strictly a local wtvj channel 4 miami local yokal. was taped in miami at 7:00 am on week days..his real name is(was chuck zink..) and was he pissed when the seed got run out of town.. he called everybody responsible a bunch of jerks etc. etc. i was really surprised that they did broadcast the show that day.. sure raised some eyebrows..






 blue

[ This Message was edited by: blue morphine on 2002-09-24 14:50 ]
Title: More Trivia
Post by: CW on September 25, 2002, 08:14:00 AM
Title: More Trivia
Post by: CW on September 25, 2002, 08:29:00 AM
greg i did not know that their was that much pressure from the media. before "the seed" i did not read the paper that often. and after i was married at 17 less that a year after being release. my head was so messed up that i didn't know if i was coming or going. a funny thought, i live in the same neighborhood as enie (peterson) we have even been at the same soccer games. i often wonder how much she wanted to be a counslor or if her mom made her. I have never seen her mom. that is one person i would love 10 minutes with.

if you ever hear of ex-seedlings getting together in person. please call me (896-6661)work. i would love to talk some more. the meeting is st. pete was good, but i had to leave and go to work, so i feel that i missed alot. keep in touch Cathy.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Somejoker on September 25, 2002, 10:44:00 AM
Give Eenie the website address! Tell her and her mother we want them both to post!

lol

Yes, even the Seed spokesperson, Claude Greene, admitted in the paper in 10/75 that the newspaper coverage "put the nail in the coffin".

Great stuff.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on September 26, 2002, 11:26:00 AM
Quote
On 2002-09-24 02:37:00, blue morphine wrote:
 i`ll never forget in miami there was a childrens program on television called "skipper chuck". well the day or the week that the seed was run out of town mr. skipper chuck(his real name was chuck zink) came on the program (now mind you this was a childrens show with popeye cartoons etc.)  he came on, and on live tv or 1 day tape delay i guess and ridiculed everybody who was responsible for running the seed out of town.. it was something to see and hear thats for sure. im guessing it was around 73 or later..

 anybody remember this??



 blue

Holy sheep shit, Batman! Yeah, I remember Skipper Chuck! I wateched him every day when I was a little kid. But I don't remember that broadcast. Unbelievable!

Know what he's doing these days? He's doing ads for Century Village, a mamoth retirement community and AARP stronghold with locations in Deerfield Beach and Miami.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: MommaDebi on September 26, 2002, 05:40:00 PM
I knew about the St Pete Times relentless pursuit of truth surrounding "The Seed".

My father did not allow me to read the paper though, stopped his subscription so none was at the house. But I did start working almost as soon as I graduated, so I always read the paper during the bus ride downtown.

Perhaps that is the reason why i love that paper sooo much. They don't/won't deliver here in Sarasota... so I actively drive 7 miles to get one on the days I don't go to school at St Pete's USF campus!

It still amazes me that these people were so able to avoid having any type of professional overseers...do you think that this could occur today?? Is it occuring anywhere without oversight??
debi
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on September 27, 2002, 12:54:00 AM
It is occuring right now In Orlando Florida in a program called "safe", a direct descendent of the Seed. It was initially a "straight" location and then changed.

The kids still motivate, go thru the steps, etc.

The local news media has supported it. They know not what they are supporting and are very stubborn about it. All attempts to date to get them to cover protests, injuries, beatings, etc at the program have been ignored.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: MommaDebi on September 28, 2002, 04:33:00 PM
Thanks... I will have to chack up on this and see if there is anything I could do.

Ginger~~ do you have any ideas about what we can do about this SAFE place? UGH what a thought "Safe Place"....It can only be an UNSAFE PLace if it is like the Seed!!?? Right?
Title: More Trivia
Post by: DKM84 on October 01, 2002, 09:03:00 PM
yeah, I remember it like it was yesterday, I ask people all the time if they remember skipper chuck, I've only found a handful, I don't know if it was live or not either.
didn't you think chuck and art kinda looked alike?
well anyway, as they say peace, love and happiness.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: GregFL on October 01, 2002, 09:18:00 PM
I remember him from the short time I lived in Miami back in about 71. I hadn't even heard of the Seed then.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Bigfrank on October 02, 2002, 12:29:00 AM
I remember Skipper Chuck, and I remember the broadcast your talking about blue, I had been on his show when I was really little... It's funny that you bring up how much he influanced little kids, because I remember him being a big influance on me, and when he got on T.V. and put down "ALL THOSE DRUGGIES", I remember feeling very down... This site has HELPED me a lot as well as others...... I also have to THANK YOU Greg for bringing this seed to light......
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on October 02, 2002, 10:16:00 AM
Really, just keep doing what we're doing.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: thom263 on October 06, 2002, 08:47:00 PM
Yes there are lots of Seed type programs out there. I was in the seed for 10 months,and a few years later one of  my younger sisters was in Straight Inc.These "programs" are all similar in that they all use intensive and invasive behavior modification techniques(aka brainwashing).I believe in another post u said u were in the program? So your familiar with the methods used.They go by diff names + are all over the country, but the common denominator is CONTROL. If your interested,there is alot of info.Lots of books.Start w/ synanon,hare krishna,children of god,peoples temple,.....These are extremes,but many similarities.Try a search(online)for cults, mind control,and info on the Korean War/American pow's+ brainwashing.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on December 24, 2002, 02:00:00 PM
greg i was there, remember staff Nick, Bonnie Dennis?

the seed indeed is all u need to stay off the junk and the pills and the weed, u come each day from 10-10 and if u screw up u start again
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on June 29, 2003, 09:36:00 AM
No.That was not "Skipper Chuck"Zink.The local Los Angeles Ca.based kids tv host/performer.Who drew pictures and engaged his viewers and his studio audiences in games,stories,songs,craftmkaing,hobbies,informational segments and interviews with guest performers,personalities and with members of his studio audiences on"The Adventures Of Popeye!","The Pier Five Club!"and"Popeye & Friends Show"was "Skipper Tom"Hatten.Mr.Hatten hosted his kids tv shows on KTLA TV Ch.5 in Southern,Ca. from the late fall of 1956 to 1963.And again in the late 1980's on KTLA TV Ch.5.Today Mr.Hatten hosts an entertainment news magazine in on a southern,Ca.radio station and performs in musicals and plays in the L.A.,Ca. area.He also hosts jazz music concerts.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Mr.Nostalgia on June 29, 2003, 09:47:00 AM
No.The kids tv host/performer.Who drew pictures and entertain and informed his viewers and his studio audiences inbetween the reruns of the "Popeye"Movie and tv cartoons on his Southern,Ca. kids tv show was not "Skipper Chuck"Zink.His name is "Skipper Tom"Hatten.Mr.Hatten's"Skipper Tom"hosted his L.A.,Ca.based kids tv shows:"The Adventures Of Popeye!","The Pier Five Club"and"Popeye & Friends!"on KTLA TV Ch.5 in L.A.,Ca. from the late fall of 1956 to the late 1980's.Today.Mr.Hatten is the host of a entertainment news magazine on a southern,Ca.radio station.He also performs in plays and musicals at local theaters and he host jazz music concerts.Mr.Nostalgia
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on June 30, 2003, 09:27:00 AM
Welcome Mr. Nostalgia!.  Were you in the Seed? Where? When?
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2003, 04:50:00 PM
Sounds like there is a lot of correlation between the locations and processes of the Seed and CEDU and Brown Schools - IS there any connection? Did Mel Wasserman visit the program or work with it? A lot of people are saying that there is a or was a connection early on to CEDU.
Can Anyone help?
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on October 11, 2003, 03:19:00 PM
both programs are deriviates of the synanon model. No direct correlation to date has been drawn between the two programs, and Art Barker recently disavowed any link to any other program, but he is a liar so we cannot put any merit in that statement.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on October 11, 2003, 06:03:00 PM
Do you know if CEDU got NIDA funding? Or if Robert DuPont ever had any direct dealings with CEDU?

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
"Isn't your pants' zipper supposed to be in the front?"
--Hobbs to Calvin

Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on December 01, 2003, 04:58:00 AM
Is their anyone out there from the cleveland seed that went down to florida?
Title: More Trivia
Post by: GregFL on December 04, 2003, 06:23:00 PM
Evan wright from Cleveland is in California and is a contributing editor of Rolling Stone.  Art Barkers Lawyer is a seedling from Cleveland that moved to Florida named John Perloff. He has a practice in Ft Lauderdale and is still in touch with Art. Other than that, I don't know of any other Cleveland seed members. Dig some up and have them post here, and welcome once again!

Real criminals walk free every day to rape, rob, and murder again because the courts are so busy finding consensual criminals guilty of hurting no one but themselves.... To free cells for consensual criminals, real criminals are put on the street every day.
Peter McWilliams

Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on February 06, 2004, 10:27:00 PM
I was on the skipper chuck show, I was born 1965 I must have been around 6-8 years old. But, I only remember a couple of character called Scrubby and Clarabell. Clarabell was a clown clown type character. I also kind of remember it being filmed in Down -town Miami. I sure would like to see a re-run of the show. Can someone tell me where I could see it again?
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on February 07, 2004, 08:38:00 AM
Clarabell? Wasn't she on Howdee Dudee or something! I grew up in Miami - no Clarabell on the Skipper Chuck Show. People on this site confuse alot of things & tie alot of things together that I believe don't belong together- just my opinion-  :silly:
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on February 07, 2004, 11:35:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-02-07 05:38:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Clarabell? Wasn't she on Howdee Dudee or something! I grew up in Miami - no Clarabell on the Skipper Chuck Show. People on this site confuse alot of things & tie alot of things together that I believe don't belong together- just my opinion-  :silly:  "


when it comes to just trivia like this.....is it really THAT important???  Maybe someone just,uh..I don't know....made a mistake??? :eek:  :eek:
Title: More Trivia
Post by: GregFL on February 07, 2004, 04:15:00 PM
Other than clarabel on Skipper Chuck, you are going to have to be a bit more specific with this criticism.

If you have information that something on the Seed discussion forum is inacurrate, by all means help us obtain the correct information by posting the inaccuracy here. This site is all about obtaining accurate information.

Thank you.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on April 16, 2004, 03:08:00 PM
The girl character on the Skipper Chuck show in Miami was named Little Annie Orphanik!! There was no Clarabelle--that was Howdy Doody
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on June 13, 2004, 01:42:00 AM
The clown on The Skipper Chuck Show was "HoHo the Clown". Sadly he took his own life (no joke)
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on June 13, 2004, 02:56:00 AM
How about a link to brainwashing techniques from :question:  Red China? nothing there? :question:
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on June 14, 2004, 08:49:00 AM
not "HoHo"  Scrubby was his name.  Makes me wonder how much other info is inaccurate.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on July 05, 2004, 02:45:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-06-12 23:56:00, Anonymous wrote:

"How about a link to brainwashing techniques from :question:  Red China? nothing there? :question: "




The next section COMMUNIST CONTROL TECHNIQUES AND THEIR EFFECTS.
 
A description of usual communist control techniques follows.
 
1. Interrogation. There are at least two ways in which "interrogation" is used:
 
     a. Elicitation, which is designed to get the individual to surrender protected information, is a form of interrogation.  One major difference between elicitation and interrogation used to achieve brainwashing is that the mind of the individual must be kept clear to permit coherent, undistorted disclosure of protected information.

     b. Elicitation for the purpose of brainwashing consists of questioning, argument, indoctrination, threats, cajolery, praise, hostility and a variety of other pressures.  The aim of this interrogation is to hasten the breakdown of the individual's value system and to encourage the substitution of a different value-system.  The procurement of protected information is secondary and is used as a device to increase pressure upon the individual.  The term "interrogation" in this paper will refer, in general, to this type.  The "interrogator" is the individual who conducts this type of interrogation and who controls the administration of the other pressures.  He is the protagonist against whom the victim develops his conflict, and upon whom the victim develops a state of dependency as he seeks some solution to his conflict.

2.  Physical Torture and Threats of Torture.  Two types of physical torture distinguishable more by their psychological effect in inducing conflict than by the degree of painfulness:

     a. The first type is one in which the victim has a passive role in the pain inflicted on him (e.g., beatings).  His conflict involves the decision of whether or not to give in to demands in order to avoid further pain.  Generally, brutality of this type was not found to achieve the desired results.  Threats of torture were found more effective, as fear of pain causes greater conflict with the individual than does the pain itself.

     b.  The second type of torture is represented by requiring the individual to stand in one spot for several hours or assume some other pain-inducing position.  Such a requirement often engenders in the individual a determination to "stick it out."  This internal act of resistance provides a felling of moral superiority at first.  As time passes and his pain mounts, however, the individual becomes aware that it is his own original determination to resist that is causing the continuance of pain.  A conflict develops within the individual between his moral determination and his desire to collapse and discontinue the pain.  It is this extra internal conflict, in addiction to the conflict over whether or not to give in to the demand made of him, that tends to make this method of torture more effective in the breakdown of the individual personality.  

3. Isolation. Individual differences in reaction to isolation are probably greater than to any other method.  Some individuals appear to be able to withstand prolonged periods of isolation without deleterious effects, while a relatively short period of isolation reduces others to the verge of psychosis.  Reaction varies with the conditions of the isolation cell.  Some sources have indicated a strong reaction to filth and vermin, although they had negligible reactions to isolation.  Others reacted violently to isolation in relatively clean cells.  The predominant cause of breakdown in such situations is a lack of sensory stimulation (i.e., grayness of walls, lack of sound, absence of social contact, etc.).  Experimental subjects exposed to this condition have reported vivid hallucinations and overwhelming fears of losing their sanity.
 
4. Control of Communication.  This is one of the most effective methods for creating a sense of helplessness and despair.  This measure might well be considered the cornerstone of the communist system of control.  It consists of strict regulation of the mail, reading materials, broadcast materials, and social contact available to the individual.  The need to communicate is so great that when the usual channels are blocked, the individual will resort to any open channel, almost regardless of the implications of using that particular channel.  Many POWs in Korea, whose only act of "collaboration" was to sign petitions and "pease appeals," defended their actions on the ground that this was the only method of letting the outside world know they were still alive.  They stated that their morale and fortitude would have been increased immeasurably had leaflets of encouragement been dropped to them.  When the only contact with the outside world is via the interrogator, the prisoner comes to develop extreme dependency on his interrogator and hence loses another prop to his morale.
 
Another wrinkle in communication control is the informer system.  The recruitment of informers in POW camps discouraged communication between inmates.  POWs who feared that every act or thought of resistance would be communicated to the camp administrators, lost faith in their fellow man and were forced to "untrusting individualism."   Informers are also under several stages of brainwashing and elicitation to develop and maintain control over the victims.  
 
5.  Induction of Fatigue.  This is a well-known devise for breaking will power and critical powers of judgment.  Deprivation of sleep results in more intense psychological debilitation than does any other method of engendering fatigue. Fatigue, in addition to reducing the will to resist, also produces irritation and fear that arise from increased "slips of the tongue," forgetfulness, and decreased ability to maintain orderly thought processes.
 
6. Control of food, water and Tobacco.  The controlled individual is made intensely aware of his dependence upon his interrogator for the quality and quantity of his food and tobacco.  Studies of controlled starvation indicated that the whole value-system of the subjects underwent a change.  Their irritation increased as their ability to think clearly decreased.
 
7. Criticism and Self-Criticism. These are mechanisms of communist thought control.  Self Criticism gains its effectiveness from the fact that although it is not a crime for a man to wrong, it is a major crime to be stubborn and refuse to learn. Many individuals feel intensely relieved in being able to share their sense of guilt.  Those individuals however, who have adjusted to handling their guilt internally have difficulty adapting to criticism and self-criticism.  In brainwashing, after a sufficient sense of guilt has been created in the individual, sharing and self-criticism permit relief.  The price paid for this relief, however, is loss of individuality and increased dependency.  
 
8. Hypnosis and drugs as Controls.  There is no reliable evidence that the communists are making 3widespread use of drugs or hypnosis in brainwashing or elicitation.  The exception to this is the use of common stimulants or depressants in inducing fatigue and "mood swings."
 
9. Other Methods of control, which when used in conjunction with the basic processes, hasten the deterioration of prisoners' sense of values and resistances are:
 
     a. Requiring a case history or autobiography of the prisoner provides a mine of information for the interrogator in establishing and "documenting" accusations.
 
     b. Friendliness of the interrogator, when least expected, upsets the prisoner's ability to maintain a critical attitude.
 
     c. Petty demands, such as severely limiting the allotted time for use of toilet facilities or requiring the POW to kill hundreds of flies, are harassment methods.
 
     d. Prisoners are often humiliated by refusing them the use of toilet facilities during interrogation until they soil themselves. Often prisoners were not permitted to bathe for weeks until the felt contemptible.
 
     e. Conviction as a war criminal appears to be a potent factor in creating despair in the individual.  One official analysis of the pressures exerted by the ChiComs on "confessors" and "non-confessors" to participation in bacteriological warfare in Korea showed that actual trial and conviction of "war crimes" was overwhelmingly associated with breakdown and confession.
 
     f. Attempted elicitation of protected information at various time during the brainwashing process diverted the individual from awareness of the deterioration of his value-system.  The fact that, in most cases the ChiComs did not want or need such intelligences was not known to the prisoner.  His attempts to protect such information were made at the expense of hastening his own breakdown.
 
The next section of the report is called The EXERCISE OF CONTROL: A "SCHEDULE" FOR BRAINWASHING.
 
Mentioned in this section are pressures which may vary in order, but are all necessary to the brainwashing process:
 
     1. A feeling of helplessness in attempting to deal with the impersonal machinery of control.
 
     2. An initial reaction of "surprise."
 
     3. A feeling of uncertainty about what is required of him.
 
     4. A developing feeling of dependence upon the interrogator.
 
     5. A sense of doubt and loss of objectivity.
 
     6. Feelings of guilt.
 
     7. A questioning attitude toward his own value-system.
 
     8. A feeling of potential "breakdown," i.e., that he might go crazy.
 
     9. A need to defend his acquired principles.
 
    10. A final sense of "belonging" (identification).
 
By the end of the brainwashing process a qualitative change has taken place within the prisoner.  The brainwashed victim does not consciously change his value-system; rather the change occurs despite his efforts.  He is no more responsible for this change than is an individual who "snaps" and becomes psychotic.  And like the psychotic, the prisoner is not even aware of the transition.


http://www.the8thstep.com/ (http://www.the8thstep.com/)

(thanks Kathy)
Title: More Trivia
Post by: GregFL on July 05, 2004, 02:50:00 PM
If you critically examine the above and apply it to the Seed model, and you don't realize that this is what you went thru, then my theory is you are still brainwashed.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Tony Stark on July 08, 2004, 05:41:00 AM
Americanism:Capitalism and Socialism. :smokin:

If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit  people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good?  Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race?

--Frederic Bastiat -- 1801-1850

Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on August 05, 2004, 10:25:00 AM
Does anyone know the date when Hoho the Clown took his life, and any of the other specifics?
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Jimmy Cusick on August 30, 2004, 11:37:00 AM
I was from Cleveland and went to the seed in Ft. Lauderdale on July 1st, 1974 and stayed in the program until August 1975. I graduated the night before the seed moved to Cleveland. I remember the staff well, Black Robert who cut hair and drove art in his limo, Libby who was a cold hearted bitch, Suzy Conners who made me start over on the front row because of the way I talked in a rap. Anne, Darlene, Cliff, Terri, Scott, Hope,Suzy Barker, John Underwood, Pam. I remember the hard chairs and smoking on the hour or when the rap leader smoked. I remember the 7 steps and "being in your head". I remember "bagging " people. I remember peanut butter and jelly and cool-aid. From 10:00 in the morning until 10:00 at night at night. I eventually went to South Plantation High School in the 11th grade and never talked to a single person, we werent allowed. The kids with rich parents were treated better than the rest of us. We were only liked if we said all the right stuff. Over 14 months I lived with a dozen families throughout Ft. Lauderdale. Some were neat, some were pathetic. Dozens of kids came down from the Cleveland Area and I got to know most of them. I really bought into the brainwashing, I thought we were going to reach out and save the world. I stayed clean and sober for 5 years so that was a good thing but I continue to resent art barker for what he did to kids. I am working on forgiving them,,,,,who remembers this " We sing jingle bells, cause everyday were straight its like christmas,,,,,im really grateful to whoever started this forum, I havent thought about the seed in years,,,,more later
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on August 30, 2004, 11:48:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-08-30 08:37:00, Jimmy Cusick wrote:

We sing jingle bells, cause everyday were straight its like christmas


Yeah, I remember that. It was also a handy excuse for never taking down the christmas lights.  

...the people have a right to keep and bear arms.
-- Patrick Henry and George Mason Debates

Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on October 01, 2004, 10:48:00 PM
SKIPPER CHUCK IS ON ( AM-640) WJNA 10AM-2PM MONDAY - FRI.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on November 02, 2004, 02:11:00 PM
Chuck Zink - aka Skipper Chuck - is now working for an AM radio station - WJNA - http://www.wjna.com (http://www.wjna.com)

You'll find a picture of him there and, outside of looking a little older, he's still and will always be, Skipper Chuck.

Tom Liddle
 :wave:
Title: More Trivia
Post by: UPSTomL on November 02, 2004, 02:28:00 PM
And here's a picture....

Some may know him as Chuck Zink, while to me, he'll always be, Skipper Chuck.

Here's a picture of Chuck 'aka' Skipper Chuck, Zink


Skipper Chuck

His show aired on WTVJ - CBS Channel 4 M-F 7a-8a.

He raised a lot of us kids that were fortunate enough to grow up in South Florida.

Tom Liddle
FLHS Class of '78
Home of the Flying L's
Title: More Trivia
Post by: GregFL on November 02, 2004, 04:48:00 PM
Welcome welcome. Wilton Manor, eh?  I used to tromp around there when I was a teenager.

You ever gonna let us off the hook and tell us about the connection (other than the movie) to Art Barker?

was he involved in the Seed?
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on November 02, 2004, 05:22:00 PM
Good ol'e Skipper Chuck. I always wanted to be on that show. Did you feel betrayed as I did when he sold out, took up residence at Century Village and started recruiting village people?

In order to live free and happily you must sacrifice boredom. It is not always an easy sacrifice.
-- Richard Bach

Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on November 25, 2004, 09:54:00 AM
i was on the skipper chuck show in miami but was it just called the "skipper chuck show" my mom thinks it was called popeye and friends...what the heck was it :cry2:
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on November 26, 2004, 07:30:00 AM
"Skipper Chucks Popeye's playhouse"
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on November 30, 2004, 08:00:00 PM
Hi; you a very interesting person seems me, he wanted to know it and to talk but on the theme.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2005, 07:02:00 AM
I was on Skipper Chuck as a kid also . whatever happened to "peace , love & happiness" somewhere this country forgot that. BTW remember "Scrubby" sorry don't remember his real name he was working as a tour guide in Key west  on the trolley there.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on January 15, 2005, 10:34:00 PM
I recall seeing Scrubby and a group called the Mod Bods at a shopping center opening in SW Ft. Laud. Must have been 1969 or so. Don't think Skipper Chuck was there. The girls in the band were hot - but i was 14 at the time and it didn't take much....
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on January 20, 2005, 09:04:00 PM
Does anyone remeber another show called something like "Banjo Billy's Funhouse"? :???:
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on January 25, 2005, 06:57:00 PM
Yep - remember the name but not much else about the show. The one I can recall the best was the Jumpin' Jack 4 o'clock show that was on for a few years when I was older...
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 26, 2005, 08:01:00 AM
Sorry I think it was "Jumpin Jack's Four O'Clock Club"  although I can't remember a damn thing about it. :grin:
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on January 26, 2005, 07:53:00 PM
It was first called "Popeye Playhouse", and then "The Skipper Chuck Show"  Oh, I loved that show.  Remember 'Scrubby'?
Title: More Trivia
Post by: cleveland on January 27, 2005, 10:15:00 AM
I can't believe how long this thread has gone on. When I was a kid, we used to visit my uncle who lived in Hollywood, Fla. The Skipper Chuck show was on, and I loved it! Didn't someone play the banjo?
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 27, 2005, 10:22:00 AM
I think so. But who the hell was Banjo Billy? Was that another show? :grin:
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 27, 2005, 10:38:00 AM
I just saw the above post "Banjo Billy's Funhouse"
but somehow I think it was some of the same people.  Oldtimers disease.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on February 16, 2005, 06:28:00 PM
Captain Jack triggered one of my memories:

I think it was actually Jack Metzger.  I met him many years later.  I think it was on channel 10 in Miami.  Sort of like the Skipper Chuck show.  I can't find anything about the show on Google.

I usually watched WTVJ, channel 4 back then.  I remember another Miami-Based show about a forest ranger.  Brought you by Coral Gables Federal.  A guy who later became a city leader in Coral Gables was the host.  The rest is lost in the memory cells.

And who could forget Flipper, flimmed right here in our back yards.

Wonder where Skipper Chuck is today?

http://www.moneywatchradionetwork.com/wjna/hosts.html (http://www.moneywatchradionetwork.com/wjna/hosts.html)



Quote
On 2005-01-25 15:57:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Yep - remember the name but not much else about the show. The one I can recall the best was the Jumpin' Jack 4 o'clock show that was on for a few years when I was older..."
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on February 17, 2005, 07:14:00 AM
Maybe Ranger Bob? with Reddy Kilowat? The electricity Figure?  My best friends brother was "Buds" stand in double for the show Flipper.
Hey "everyone loves the king of the sea"! :grin:
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on February 17, 2005, 07:20:00 AM
Skipper Chuck just turned 80.  He's on AM radio from 10am to Noon daily 640AM Radio out of I think Lake Worth FL. He still sounds the same.  I called in and  :scared: won a couple of tickets and a dinner for two for answering some trivia question.  I told him this will make you feel old Chuck I'm 50 and I was on your TV show when I was 8 or 9.   :scared:  :grin:
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Fran on February 17, 2005, 02:27:00 PM
Small world, my daughter lives in Lake Worth, FL a few blocks from the beach and about 25 years ago I lived there also.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: GregFL on February 17, 2005, 02:47:00 PM
When I was 18 to 20, I used to bridge jump off the old bridge across lake worth inlet, right by the ocean.  It was about 35 feet and the tide would rip, and I would do swan dives and people would clap and hoot and holler..then I would have the swim hard against the current to get to the seawall and scale up it, and go do it again.


About 10 years ago I was diagnosed with compression fractures in my neck. While it is liveable and doesn't slow me down much, I often wonder it it was from hitting the water head first, jumping off that bridge.

Back to the subject here, is anyone gonna let me off the hook and tell me what the hell skipper chuck had to do with the seed?
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Stripe on February 17, 2005, 06:42:00 PM
Greg:

Are you referring to the Boynton Inlet?  If so, you are one brave guy.  I was bridge jumper in my youth, but I always went in feet first. I was cured of thrill jumping when I did a sink hole outside Tallhassee and had scale back up a mud wall to get out. That was the last free jump  for me.  But what a thrill.  

As for Skipper Chuck Zink, he's also a biggie on public radio in West Palm Beach.  He's an ok guy - has some pretty helpful programs for senior citizens.  Now that some of us are staring to qualify for AARP membership, he doesn't seem like such an old fart after all.


Good day and good jumping.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on February 17, 2005, 07:23:00 PM
Yes, but I felt betrayed when he became the spokesman for the Village people. After all, he had always said "kids are people too!" How could he endorse a community that's so mean to kids?  ::noway::

Everything that people say to you is personal. Whether it is constructive criticism or not will determine whether it cam from and asshole or not.

----Bill Warbis

Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on February 17, 2005, 07:35:00 PM
What village people?

Certainly not the disco group....

 :grin:
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on February 17, 2005, 08:18:00 PM
No, not the dico dudes...

http://www.accuraterealestate.com/century.html (http://www.accuraterealestate.com/century.html)

Errors, like straws, upon the surface flow;

He who would search for perls must dive below.

Prolougue (from preface to
the Panther Book)
John Dryden, All for Love, Prolougue

Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on February 18, 2005, 10:13:00 AM
She's talkin "Century Village" 55 and over adult living condos.  Chuck zink I think did a movie that Art Barker was in also.  Some of the Seed kids went on "Skipper Chuck Show" for a short time way back then.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: cleveland on February 18, 2005, 11:10:00 AM
The fact that this thread has over 4000 views shows that we are all middle aged farts and have gone soft in the head! What will the younger folks from more contemporary boot camp/therapeutic community/boarding schools think of us? They are all busy with Ecstacy, self-mutilation and abstinence education and we're taking about Skipper Chuck and Banjo Billy!

Enough already! (OK I loved that show when I visited my uncle in Hollywood Florida but - really)...
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Fran on February 18, 2005, 04:51:00 PM
More trivia...my druggie days were spent in Hollywood Florida ....and my parents now live in Century Village West Palm Beach...ARGGGGGG!!!!
Title: More Trivia
Post by: rjfro22 on February 19, 2005, 02:16:00 AM
Fran,
       What part of Hollywood fla did you hang ?,
that was where I did most of my drug damage.
I lived over by the pig farm near the Indian reservation, near Sterling rd & 441 . The police had coined our group of stoners " The Pig Farm Bums"  Anyway that was the very early seventies. I wonder if we ever crossed paths., at the Jetties, Young Circle,
or Johnson Street Beach where all the freaks hung out.
  :???:  :em:
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Fran on February 19, 2005, 01:28:00 PM
My druggie days were in the year 1972 and yes...Hollywood Beach...the paddle ball courts...Young Circle...mostly hung out down the street from where I lived at Oakridge Elementary...they had portables to hide behind...paddle ball courts to hide around...also hung out a few times at the lake next to TY Park ( which was not there yet) which was a quarry at the time forgot the name but a bunch of kids would go swimming back there and hang out. Dania Beach was a major hang out...the pier. Yes in some ways there were some fond memories of growing up.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Thom on February 19, 2005, 05:26:00 PM
I grew up in Pompano, but remember (vaguely) going to concerts at Pirates World. Grand Funk and Blood Rock is one that pops to mind.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on February 19, 2005, 05:31:00 PM
Iremember pirates world- Grand Funk -  Guess Who  -
Three dog night. ::drummer::  ::rocker::
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on February 19, 2005, 06:07:00 PM
I lived in Pompano but hung out at Ft. Lauderdale Beach or Holiday Park.  They were not good memories at all.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Thom on February 19, 2005, 06:50:00 PM
I saw 3 dog night too. Memories are real fuzzy about concerts. I usually got really  wasted so I could have 'fun'. Friends would tell me later whether or not I succeeded. I do remember one time, might have been 3 dog night, who knows. I don't recall the drug, but it must have been some kind of stimulant thing that was going around. Anyway, what I do remember was that I 'danced' so violently, or in such an odd fashion, that a ring of spectators formed around me. The next thing I remember was on the way home being dehydrated to the point of loosing consciousness.
   Another time, I wrecked my best friend's '67 Impala Fastback the afternoon of a Robin Trower concert. (I still don't understand how the police did not see how stoned I was). My friend, Ray, had just finished fixing it up really nice, big tires, jacked up in the back, new intake and carb (the kind that required a hood scoop, I think) It was raining lightly, and I went to pass another car, and lost control, not being used to driving such a powerful car. I hit another car, and caused injuries. I didn't even go over to check on them. Too scared I might see blood, I guess. More likely I was afraid of an 'uncomfortable' confrontation. But did we let that stop us? NO WAY! We bummed a ride with some buddies who ended up leaving us there. It was Miami, about 30 miles from home. I don't know if they forgot, got tired of waiting for us to find them, or exactly who they were, for that matter. We called his dad at about 2-3 in the morning after coming to the conclusion it was too far to walk. Boy was HE pissed when he got there. He never said a word the whole ride. The next morning I withdrew all my savings, about $300., I think, and knocked on their door and handed it to his dad with an apology. He still was not smiling.
   Another fun adventure I had was getting real wasted one day, a little bit of everthing. Pot, acid, beer, and some pills represented as THC (who knows, I put all kinds of garbage in my body) I was driving east, not sure what road, started passing another car, crossing a double yellow line in the process, and came real close to hitting a Sherriff's Deputy coming the other way. He had the nerve to pull me over! I remember thinking I should take my shades off so he wouldn't think I was stoned. I had to use the rear view mirror and 'self talk' and a passenger's guidance to assist with the hand/eye coordination to accomplish this task. The Deputy asked if I was John McNulty's son. I said yes, and he let me go with a warning. My Dad was no big political guy or rich or anything, but he was well respected in the area for his reputation as a good, honest, hard-working man of character. I never knew if the guy let me go out of respect for dad's reputation, because he knew what shame it would bring him, or if he knew what Dad had been through with some of us kids, and wanted to spare him more pain. Boy, those were fun times!  :scared: ....Ginger?
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on February 19, 2005, 07:30:00 PM
Eh, could have been he knew Dad pretty well and thought you were too young to die? LOL

I dunno. This isn't really trivia stuff.

Oh, you'll like this. I don't know if you knew this already or not. Remember those jackets that Ray brought back from Guatamala? I think he sold them for $15/ea and Mom bought two. I kept the red one. Dont' know if Mom still has the green one or not. Mine lasted through everything till it met w/ an unfortunate laundry accident involving part of Jojo's bottle top collection.

I found out a few years back that they're made of hemp, which is just the cheapest high quality textile fiber available in the area where they're made. How many times do you suppose Mom wore that thing in and out of Open Meeting? LOL!

That's still not Seed trivia, though. Just an entertaining tidbit.

What ever happened to Ray, Tom and Patty? I also wonder about Tom Mc w/ the hydrolic leg. I had a HUGE crush on him back then.

You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war.
--Albert Einstein

Title: More Trivia
Post by: rjfro22 on February 19, 2005, 09:04:00 PM
Good old pirates world. I remember sneeking in and seeing Led Zepplin . The other groups
Grand Funk, Three Dog, Grateful Gead, thats right , they played there as well and I did lean towards the glam rock and I saw David Bowie
on his Ziggy Stardust tour in little old hollywood fla. and the colorful creatures came out that night, you would of thought you were in New York.  Did anyone go to the Johnny Winters concert at pirates world where they did that live album with Rick Derringer ( Rock and Roll Hootchie Coo)  I was there!  
I also saw Alice Cooper there and he also played the Miami speedway.  I did Love that Pirates World,  It was definitly a teenage wasteland. :eek:  :eek:
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Fran on February 19, 2005, 10:17:00 PM
My first concert at Pirates World was 1970-1971..it was Bloodrock and Savoy Brown. Wow!! Bloodrock sang that song called DOA.
Of course you guys would have remembered the Hollywood Sportitorium out west on Hollywood Blvd and the concerts, rain, mud and more drugs then a pharmacy would have... but of course by most of that time I was in the seed by then. My brother though had some times out there.
Hey Thom we were probably both at this concert with Bloodrock...
remember the big water tower across the Sheridan Street from Pirates World...my older brother and his friend climbed it and painted in big letters his love for his girlfriend at the time.
 :smile:
[ This Message was edited by: Fran on 2005-02-19 19:23 ]
Title: More Trivia
Post by: rjfro22 on February 19, 2005, 10:49:00 PM
I was also at that  Bloodrock concert,
whatever happened to them. DOA was a great song for the one hit wonder. I forgot all about that group, but the song was apropos for the time.     Does anyone know if Tom Petty lived in hollywood fla . Someone told me he went to
Driftwood jr High?   I think I am confusing the hollywood sportitorium with the miami speedway,    that's were I saw Alice Cooper and Captain Beefheart . I do rmember that water tower across from pirates world. I also remember swimming at the lake before it was TY park . We swang from the rope on the big tree into the water.  Remember the big sand hills that were in that area before TY I think there was a Lime lake there way back then.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on February 20, 2005, 05:24:00 AM
I heard the Tom Mc passed away some years ago
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Thom on February 20, 2005, 08:13:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-20 02:24:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I heard the Tom Mc passed away some years ago"

thats sad news. I used to sing in 'The New Crusty Nostrils" with him and others. Many fond memories from that. Any idea of what killed him? :cry:
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Fran on February 20, 2005, 12:48:00 PM
rjfro22...
yes it was a lime quarry and there was also another smaller quarry next to the larger lake they made out of TY.
I know Tom Petty grew up or lived for a while in Gainesville...not far from the University of Florida. Not sure about him living in Hollywood.
But I do have a lot of good memories growing up in Hollywood and of my youth ...the good and bad ...I cannot put the things I experienced, down, during that time as the seed wanted me to do. I am content with the way my life has gone even though my youth may have been questionable at times...I learned along the way.
It is good to be able to talk with others of that time we all lived in. Times have definitely changed and we can never go back, but we can in our memories and in the memories of others.
PEACE  :smile:  :smile:
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on February 20, 2005, 09:44:00 PM
I heard that he passed away from Aids.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Thom on February 21, 2005, 09:06:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-20 18:44:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I heard that he passed away from Aids.  "


do you have a when, where on that? Was he still in the Miami area? Do you know what year? thanks
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on February 21, 2005, 09:15:00 PM
Sorry, I heard it from a friend and they did not say when or where.  I did not ask either.  I have known for about 3 years but don't know when it happened.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on February 27, 2005, 12:53:00 PM
Remember (vaguely) Alice cooper in the late 60's early 70's at Pirate's World. Seems so tame today but real "out there" back then. Does anyone remember a place called the Flying Machine (I think) in the 70's? (It was near the old Gold Coast Skating Rink where I spent many a summer's day in the early 60's.) Anyway, lots of drugs and strange people.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: rjfro22 on February 27, 2005, 11:00:00 PM
I think I remember the Flying Machine,
wasn't  that on Collins ave. I believe I saw
SPIRIT there.I remember going to a rock club on collins ave, I think even Jimi Hendricks played there, Collins Ave was a real freak ( HIPPIES) hang out,  I was very young at that time , around 14 , I also remember going to Grenalds  park every sunday and seeing NRBQ and Vanila Fudge, and other various bands. I guess it was called a Love In,
Lots of acid and freaks. I remember the Armory in hollywood also had live rock shows.
We had a lot of places to go to in those days.
Did anyone go to the Rock Pow wow festival (3days) at the Seminal Reservation in Hollywood, It was the first time I saw Johnny Winters.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on March 01, 2005, 07:25:00 PM
I recall the Greynolds (sp?) park days. You are right, seems like there were a lot of places to go back then. (I guess the lawyers have taken over.) Did you ever go to the armory in SW Ft. Lauderdale on SR 84? That was a big hang out place for a while.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on March 02, 2005, 03:14:00 AM
OK, OK, this site seems to be all about Ft Lauderdale and Cleveland Seed Programs.  I CANNOT believe there are no St Pete people viewing this site.  PLEASE post if you're around! I "signed up" on my own accord and would very much appreciate hearing from anyone who attended Clearwater HS, Dunedin, Largo, Seminole, Palm Harbor, Tarpon Springs AND/OR went into the Seed around 1973 or so.

I had a lot of friends there so...talk to me and tell me about it!!
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on March 02, 2005, 07:47:00 AM
Does anyone remember Dina singing "Lost and lonely
Children" or Penny singing "People" or Tommy M. singing "People Get Ready"& playing his guitar. :smile:   or also Penny singing "Summertime". Everytime I hear those songs today I think of them. Nice memories for me. OK the Dina song she made up- but it was appropiate for how I personally felt at the time.
[ This Message was edited by: Ft. Lauderdale on 2005-03-02 04:48 ]
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Ican'tTalktoYou on March 02, 2005, 09:20:00 AM
I used to be a Johnny Winter fanatic.  I still love his old music.  I saw him in the late 70's in Jacksonville and he was so good.  He came here to Palm Beach County a few years ago.  I dragged my husband to see him, telling him he wouldn't believe how what an awesome blues guy he was.

I was STUNNED when I watched two guys help him onto the stage.  He shuffled up to the front and never said a word.  His playing was not so good and he didn't sing.  The big thing for the evening was he spun around.....once.  He is in his late 50's I think.  He looked about 90.

I think he did heroin about 100 times too many.  It was very sad to see someone so talented completely waste their life.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: cleveland on March 02, 2005, 09:47:00 AM
NRBQ was a huge favorite of mine in college in the late 70s, pre-Seed...they had a great hippie vibe and a great album, Scraps and Workshop...why the song "Magnet" didn't become a hit I'll never know...

They have continued to put out interesting and sometimes great music...I saw them at Wilbert's in Cleveland about 10 years ago and they were fantastic, one of the best shows I've ever seen.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Fran on March 03, 2005, 09:37:00 AM
I just got a memory hit!!
Penny...she was a african american staff member?
Very short hair? I remember her to be very nice...is this accurate?
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Thom on March 03, 2005, 02:04:00 PM
Fran, I do have a Penny in my brain too. If I'm picturing the right woman, she was kind of quiet, kind, and attractive physically. That's about all I'm getting right now
Title: More Trivia
Post by: TRUCKER on March 03, 2005, 05:11:00 PM
Thats right.Black lady ,round face,big smile and short hair and love to sing and knew she could.One of her favorit songs was the "impossiable dream". Does any one remember talent night around xmas when the staff sang "Heard it thru the grape vine"

                  TRUCKER
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on March 03, 2005, 10:15:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-03-03 11:04:00, Thom wrote:

Fran, I do have a Penny in my brain too.


`Splains a lot! Hope it's not inoperable  :eek:

Hear me people: We now have to deal with another race - small and feeble when our fathers first met them, but now great and overbearing. Strangely enough they have a mind to till the soil and the love of possessions is a disease with them. These people have made many rules which the rich may break but the poor may not. They take their tithes from the poor and weak to support the rich and those who rule.
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Fran on March 03, 2005, 10:48:00 PM
How strange...somethings as simple as a name triggered a memory that I never would have in a million years thought of.
I wonder whatever happened to Penny?
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Thom on March 04, 2005, 08:21:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-03-03 19:15:00, Antigen wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-03-03 11:04:00, Thom wrote:



Fran, I do have a Penny in my brain too.





`Splains a lot! Hope it's not inoperable  ::ftard::
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on March 04, 2005, 11:46:00 AM
:rofl:

Forgive, O Lord, my little joke on Thee and I'll  forgive Thy great big one on me.
--Robert Frost, American poet

Title: More Trivia
Post by: Thom on March 04, 2005, 12:24:00 PM
I just hope it doesn't cause an abe-cess. One positive side affect though, I seem to be capable of seeing two sides to every issue. since its introduction, I can make cents out of most any idea.

Hey, look what your nephew, John is up to!
http://www.whirledbeet.com/main.htm (http://www.whirledbeet.com/main.htm)
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on March 04, 2005, 10:34:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-03-04 09:24:00, Thom wrote:



Hey, look what your nephew, John is up to!

http://www.whirledbeet.com/main.htm (http://www.whirledbeet.com/main.htm)
"


How cool! Man, they're good too!  ::rocker::  ::cheers::  Are they signed yet? ::deal::

From the bottom of any large organization looking up through the ranks, human greed and stupidity look a lot like a conspiracy.
--S. Gilbert



_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on March 04, 2005, 10:54:00 PM
Thom, they are really good. Next Hootie and the Blowfish, maybe?

First management had plans and then strategic plans. Now we have vision, and we're only one small step from hallucination.
-- Ansley Throckmorton upon assuming the presidency of Bangor Theological Seminary in Bangor, Main per Information World 8-4-`97

Title: More Trivia
Post by: korne on March 04, 2005, 11:44:00 PM
I remember Zappa, Black Sabbath, Tull at Pirates world.  Also remember several local guys that were very good at guitar.  HH guys who played at great local parties.  I often wonder how I survived with so many drugs. But, I have survived well!

Legalizing drugs would simultaneously reduce the amount of crime and raise the quality of law enforcement. Can you conceive of any other measure that would accomplish so much to promote law and order?  
--Economist Milton Friedman

Title: More Trivia
Post by: Thom on March 05, 2005, 07:14:00 AM
I concur. These guys are hot. I've heard John's talent for a few years now, and am thrilled he has found a good band to play with. As for the signing question, here is their statement on that from  http://myspace.com/whirledbeet (http://myspace.com/whirledbeet)  

"Record Label:  WB won't sign over our music/lives for nothing! ::drummer::
 
Type of Label:  Self-Produced"
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on March 05, 2005, 08:15:00 PM
That's understandable. It is a really rotten industry. Hope they make enough on their own so they can keep doing it forever.

Fear is the parent of cruelty, therefore it is no wonder if religion and cruelty have gone hand-in-hand.
--Bertrand Russell, British philosopher, educator, mathemetician, and social critic

Title: More Trivia
Post by: rjfro22 on March 06, 2005, 05:45:00 PM
I remember seeing a local band called Conventry back in the very early 70's. I thought  for sure they would have made it.  I also remember Ted Nurgent opening for almost every other band at pirates world.                            

I personally don't remember seeing anyone at the Seed that had and great musical talent, there were some decent amatures that had ok voices,  and played a few cords on guitar
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on March 06, 2005, 09:50:00 PM
But what do you think of Whirled Beet? And, btw, anybody remember Thom now? That kid looks more like him than he does himself.

Tough Love: Abuse of a type particularly enjoyable to the abuser, in that it combines the pleasures of sadism with those of self-righteousness. Commonly employed and widely admired in 12-step groups.
--Chaz Bufe

Title: More Trivia
Post by: Tony Stark on March 07, 2005, 08:08:00 AM
I was in a band called"Sound Barrier after the Seed. I played bass, but didn't care much for the
"scene" it was too phoney.I got put in Straight anyway for it and escaped and got up with Uncle Sam. Still have my own music stuidio now and play bass, guitars, percussion,keyboards, and vocals. I even got a vitual 32 tracker that's compact midi. It makes Cd's. I do all my stuff alone now, but there was I time when I jumped through hoops for some jazz snobs. They later paid their dues and play with Richard Elliot now. Some British band stole our name and my name too. It's weird. even some asshole from Texas stole the name of my studio, so I turned that and my media research center into a multi- communications center and the studio has been newly built and I sleep out there. It's quiet at the sleeping hours. I remember Rob Huff from the Seed had some musical talent but I don't know what ever happened to him. I saw him at a festival some friends of mine were polaying in back in 77. I think"Dennis Novac" had a lot of comedy talenbt in his talent shows, but it seemed I was the only one that thought it was funny. I remember the "flying zambini brothers" That was funny. Some girl Named "Joy" had a musical gift and a painting gift. I remeber she painted a portrait of Art Barker. Very talented. :smokin:

It's an incredible con job when you think of it, to believe something now in exchange for life after death. Even corporations with all their reward systems don't try to make it posthumous.
--Gloria Steinam, women's rights activist

Title: More Trivia
Post by: Ican'tTalktoYou on March 07, 2005, 06:27:00 PM
I seem to remember Joy.  Was she short with blond wavy hair and dimples?

I checked out the whirled beet website.  They're good...kinda funky and laid back.  Works for me.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: rjfro22 on March 07, 2005, 10:58:00 PM
There is new commercial on TV where they are using that old Donovan song " Happiness Runs" and of course it brings right me back to SR84 1973    "Happiness runs in a circular motion " love is a little boat apon the sea"   we split it up in harmony between the girls and the boys,   and at the end we all joined together singing " wh---y ?,  because ! ,wh---y ?, because !   WE'RE STRAIGHT!!!!!!
I think that's how it went.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Thom on March 08, 2005, 08:21:00 AM
weren't we 'chicks and dudes' or something?
Title: More Trivia
Post by: GregFL on March 08, 2005, 09:14:00 AM
Guys and chicks, Thom..

No dudes..that was "druggie" talk, But somehow, chicks was okay.

The place was  nutty, silly, and stupid...among other things.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: rjfro22 on March 08, 2005, 03:09:00 PM
looking back, I would definitly say we were girls and boys,  we were definitly stripped of the dude  and chick thing. I became a dude again when I got out of  the seed and florida.
Let's face Chicks and Dudes wouldn't sing dippidy-do-da
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Thom on March 08, 2005, 05:30:00 PM
I think the purpose of guys and chicks (thanks Greg, for clarifying that) singing those kinds of songs was an attempt to let us enjoy a part of our childhood which may have been delayed/suspended/skipped due to our choice to numb our emotions w/drugs. I know personally, I would have been 'too cool' to sing that stuff  (and I can still 'hear' Susie Conners saying) "...when I was a DRUGGIEEE"  

::soapbox::
My emotional, spiritual, and in many respects, mental development were essentially shut down when I joined the ranks of the drug using/authority-hating cult(ure). The Seed attempted to jump-start that maturity process with some honesty, kinda like a defibulator. Keep in mind, that's the experience of someone who signed himself into the Seed :exclaim: (the act of waving arms wildly, and screaming, jumping up and down, etc.) originated with BOB Barker and that program, NOT ART Barker, and The Seed.

To butcher a great line from 'Cool Hand Luke', What we have heah...is Flailure...to communicate

_________________
later, Thom

I think I know where I got off track! I thought the 11th step said 'Sought through beer and medication to remove our conscious contact w/ God...I plead lysdexia![ This Message was edited by: Thom on 2005-03-08 14:33 ]

Title: More Trivia
Post by: korne on March 08, 2005, 05:34:00 PM
I never entered the Seed though I had several friends that did.  Hollywood was a crazy place in the 70's and despite the "cult" like status of the seed,  I suppose it helped a lot of people.  I moved to Hollywood from Pennsylvania at 13 and grew-up very fast... too fast.  Does anyone remember Brian Marder, Tim Carney, Larry Leibovits or Joe Iorio?  None of them went to the seed, but they were my best friends and could have used some help.  For me, I joined the Air Force at 18 and it was my Seed.  For some reason, now at 48, I still think a lot of Hollywood, though I have not been in touch with anyone since 1977.  I travel a lot now and visit Hollywood beach about twice a year.  I still remember posing as a surfer, playing paddleball and hanging out.  Some great memories.  

Next the statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon the nation that is attacked,  and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that  the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque  self-deception."  
Mark Twain, The Mysterious Stranger, 1916, Ch.9

Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on March 08, 2005, 08:00:00 PM
I think the nursery songs were part of the effort to force an infantile state of mind. Think about how vitally important your status was. Newcomer, oldcomer, oldcomer at home, old timer, staff, sr staff. I've read where in the later years, when Seedlings were pretty much all adults, they still refered to themselves as "seed kids".

The truth about brainwashing is that it can't be done to you with your cooperation. If you understand what's being done then the illusion fails.

Check out Lifton's criteria. http://fornits.com/anonanon/docs/lifton-criteria.txt (http://fornits.com/anonanon/docs/lifton-criteria.txt)


Totalitarianism is like a specter which drinks the blood of the living and so achieves reality, while the victims go on existing as a mass of living corpses.

Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on March 09, 2005, 07:47:00 AM
OK here we go again. Singing those songs was to let certain emotions out that we were too cool to do. Hey it helped me.  I don't go around singing them today.(maybe I think I am too cool now)
 :silly:
Title: More Trivia
Post by: marshall on March 09, 2005, 12:30:00 PM
<"I don't go around singing them today.(maybe I think I am too cool now)">

Your head is obviously waaay out of whack. Check your attitude. First things first and those songs should come first. How can you justify not singing them?

I still sing them....
with my preschool grandchildren. 'I'm a little teapot short and stout...'

On a more serious note...it is obviously part of korean mindcontrol technique. OK, still kidding. But seriously seriously, I've watched my kids and lots of others grow up over the years and it's not uncommon for teens to be unsure of how grown-up or mature they are. They still feel like little kids inside (I know I did) and try to compensate for this insecurity by trying to 'act' mature or cool. Once people begin to actually mature inside, the need to act mature or inhibit emotions (act cool) subsides. All of this has little to do with being an asshole, using drugs, or being a bad person. It's just normal development. One of the more useful things I learned via the seed was the direct correlation between ego and insecurity. The greater the insecurity, the greater the need to appear confident & hide this insecurity...even from ourselves. Now when I detect this insecurity within myself, I simply stay with it and examine it rather than immediately run away and try to cover it up via images and play-acting.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: GregFL on March 09, 2005, 01:11:00 PM
Thom said...."My emotional, spiritual, and in many respects, mental development were essentially shut down when I joined the ranks of the drug using/authority-hating cult(ure)."
-------------------------------------


Thom, help me here because I am confused. I thought you were a 14 year old child without a drug problem when you went in the seed. Is this wrong? How then did joining the ranks of the non drug using/authoritarian yet authority hating cult(ure) of the seed help anything? You were a child Thom...picture your own son at 14 locked down, isolated, screamed at and forced to sing humiliating childish songs and then ostracised at school for being a part of a weird fringe group. Wish that on him?

And yes, the restriction of freedom along with the singing of child songs is a simple yet effective mind control technique used by cults the world thruout.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: rjfro22 on March 09, 2005, 01:50:00 PM
Korne,
         What part of hollywood did you come from?
Title: More Trivia
Post by: korne on March 09, 2005, 07:43:00 PM
I lived at 34th street and thomas street.  I remember when the field behind my neighborhood would  flood, before ty park was a park and we would sniff glue, smoke dope and do acid when I was in high school.  I wish none of that happened, but it did. I take full responsibility and have become quite successful as a business man and as a person.  For some reason, all of this means something to me at this age.  I used to play paddle ball and enjoy the beach.  It was a bad place, but a good place.  I transfereed to Cooper City HS my junior year because my parents divorced and my mom  could not afford our house.  I hated it, but did the best I could.  Hard lessons, but good results.  Thanks to God that I made it.  

I tried for years to live according to everyone else's morality.
I tried to live like everyone else, to be like everyone else.
I said the right things even when I felt and thought quite differently.
And the result is a catastrophe.

---Albert Camus

Title: More Trivia
Post by: cleveland on March 10, 2005, 09:30:00 AM
Gotta respond to Thom saying how singing Zippity Doo Dah allowed him to get in touch with his emotions. Cool - I can understand that. But I guess, while the Seed allowed me to challenge the 'group think' of being cool, and having a 'druggie attitude,' I wasn't truly free until I could also question the mindless loyalty to and acceptance of The Seed.

Today, I will sing or listen to whatever song I like - I will sing silly songs and listen to what the Seed called 'druggie music' too. I am free and will question everyone...
Title: More Trivia
Post by: marshall on March 10, 2005, 09:39:00 AM
Amen, Wally. :nworthy:
Even 'Don't fear the reaper?'
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on March 10, 2005, 09:41:00 AM
Quote
..or something like that.



On the lighter side, I caught a few minutes of the opening of an episode of "The Price is Right" yesterday, and I'm convinced that the concept of  'motivating'  :exclaim: (the act of waving arms wildly, and screaming, jumping up and down, etc.) originated with BOB Barker and that program, NOT ART Barker, and The Seed.






 :grin:  :grin:  :grin:

pretty funny Thom. But of course, you realize we are talking about two entirely different concepts...motivating for cash and prizes, and motivating because if you don't you will be severly punished and must always show that you have assimilated into the group personality.

But funny nevertheless!

 :grin:
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on March 10, 2005, 09:42:00 AM
Also, those crazy Straight attendees are just so convinced motivating originated at the Straight. Not so!  It is done in different forms by cults everywhere and was prevelant at our little cult as well. Even Artie boy didn't originate that one....
Title: More Trivia
Post by: GregFL on March 10, 2005, 09:43:00 AM
sorry, those both were me, didn't log in.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: GregFL on March 10, 2005, 09:47:00 AM
Korne, welcome to our forum!

Most new guys are initiated here by giving us a seed story. Tell us something that sticks in your mind from the day, something that seemed relevant, important, scary, or helpfull. Anything.

thanks!
Title: More Trivia
Post by: GregFL on March 10, 2005, 02:49:00 PM
There is some dissention on this board and even a thread of incredulty when it is mentioned that the seed used cultic methods.

Here is an account with my comments in parenthesis of how someone used to be recruited into the moonies back in the seventies. It may have changed or maybe not...

                 ________
Generally, the recruit meets organizational officials over a quiet dinner. Moon is not mentioned, religion is seldom broached. While you eat, you listen to their lectures and prayers and share in their singing, the recruiters constantly smile throughout the encounter. The youth is asked to attend a three-day workshop. (this is the common deceptive recruiting technique, in the seed it was done at the 'intake' and after wearing you down it was suggested to you to  "just sign yourself in for three days and then you can leave if you want).

The first recognition individuals have when arriving for the three day workshops, is that the followers of Moon regard each other as a family....(no comment necessary)

The recruit is not left alone.(right!) As the neighbors of the Moonie encampment in Pope Valley have attested to, they walk in pairs.(YES!) ... It becomes immediately apparent to you that you are not to be left alone and that all 'spiritual children'(or in our case, Seedlings) have someone of their opposite sex(for seedlings, same sex) from the family assigned to them. If you should wander off by yourself, someone will follow you and politely ask you to rejoin the group.(or as the case with the seed, tackle you to the ground and drag you back to the group) You are even escorted to the rest room." (same!)The book continues, "You also learn that there is a rigidly held schedule. There are specific times for eating, exercising, playing, singing, listening to lectures and discussing them.(and no, absolutely no, exceptions to the schedule) You are separated into small groups, led by a team leader who has to have perfect control, not approximate control.(yep!) From the beginning, the leader directs his or her group like a kindergarten teacher, telling you when to do this or that."(and how to talk, what to say and when and how to say it under the threat of punishment).

If the leaders of the group should slacken in their enthusiasm or diligence, they are sternly reprimanded.(in the seed, started over or demoted to junior staff) The recruit is rarely permitted to engage in any casual conversation with anyone.(in the seed, never) They are only allowed to speak about spiritual things(or in our case, seed approved things when called on) within a structured framework. Creativity is frowned upon, conformity is stressed.(and required) "All day you are bombarded by ideas and concepts," (12 hour per day structured groups) states The Puppet Master.(this was a book written on the moonies) "There is little relaxation, and so your resistance is low.(no relaxation at all at the seed). When you refrain from sharing or resist in any way, you are met with benevolent concern.(in the seed, confrontation) Peer approval is an important technique which subtly tells you to conform. The family members aim directly at your most vulnerable points: the need to belong, to feel useful and to feel love.(same as the seed) Throughout the workshop you are flooded with affection, hugs, pats, hand-holding and smiles."(same as the seed, but usually only when you were in compliance)

Recruits react to the regimental control by trying to please.(as a coping method, same in the seed) "But, you quickly learn that the only way to please is to conform,"(completely and absolutely) The Puppet Master states. "You succumb many times to small acts of conformity without realizing it.(yes!) You feel guilty when you hold back, and you are told that wanting to be alone is a symptom of fear and alienation." (being alone is never an option in the seed)It is at this point that the recruit is asked to join the movement.(in the seed, encouraged to 'work his program') The family member who has spent all the time with the specific recruit (oldcomer in the seed) will beg and plead for the recruit to stay.(and "get straight) There will even be tears along with promises. They will continue to implore until you decide to join," (get straight, and if they fail, the seed would assign someone else to work on you)The Puppet Master states.

After joining the Moonies, the recruit will be given about two weeks of adjustment. They call it "losing", a period when the recruit's desires become nothing. Recruits are allowed to return home for one visit (earn the right to speak to your parents at group), but they must be accompanied or tailed by a Moonie. After that one visit, the recruit's communication with his natural family is reduced to mainly correspondence, and that diminishes rapidly.(this is a difference in voluntary cults because the family in essense joins the seed cult with you. If they don't, your contact is severely limited or forbidden as mine was with my mother)  "When you do step out into the world, it is a shock, a cultural shock," states The Puppet Master. "You are taught that everyone not in the movement is under the influence of Satan (or as with the seed..'unaware or druggies') and that you should mistrust them..... no doubt they are trying to take your mind away. You begin to fear the world and those in it. Thus you become dependent on the group for love and positive reinforcement. After alienation is complete, you are told that you can leave if you want."

After the "losing period" the regimentation becomes even more rigid. The recruit is required to adhere to even more demanding workshop schedules. They sleep five or six hours a day.(same in the seed, and studies show teenagers need much more sleep or they cannot function correctly) Their diet consists of starchy foods and low proteins.(early stages of the seed and when there for weekends) Often they fast for many days.(no fasting, but extremely limited proteins and liquids in early stages of the seed) The recruit must now fundraise and recruit others.(absolutely but recruiting was done thru parents in the seed) The recruit must sing and pray before meals, before classes, before work, before evening gatherings. Most songs are traditional or Korean hymns. Alcohol and drugs are forbidden.



 :eek:
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on March 10, 2005, 10:19:00 PM
I am around, proud seed graduate entered around 72/73 stayed around for quite a while helping out, spent more than a few nights "guarding" the wharehouse from marauding bands of "druggies". Born & raised in St Pete I see many names I recognize & remember fondly. Dave, Maggie, Tommy, Macky, Jan, Julie, Peggy, Enie, Libby (sp?), Ginger,Arthur, Greg, Debbie, Ron, Mrs Peterman, Married another seed graduate and managed to stay straight until my second year of marriage which ended in divorce. I spent a few more years of additional "research" until I found my way back to AA with the help of my brother (who for a while I did not talk to when I was in high school because I thought he was a "dry druggie") funny how things come back around. I too felt oddly comfortable now working on 14 years (sept 6th) of sobriety. I moved away from St Pete after I graduated JC & went on to finish the last two years of college in Atlanta. I have nothing but great memories of my own "adventures in getting straight" and all the people that helped, hoped, loved & supported me at that time. And it all comes back around now with my oldest who is 19 just droppin out of college & moving in with "the love of her life" who just happens to be a druggie & a theif. I knew I was going to get my come uppance for the hell I put my mom & dad through... it just took a few years. Ain't life grand. I Love You Guys!

Chris Lewis
Title: More Trivia
Post by: GregFL on March 11, 2005, 11:25:00 AM
Chris, welcome to our forum.

What school did you go to?

You think you remember me?  I would like to remember you as well, give me some help so I can.

Thanks.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on March 11, 2005, 06:44:00 PM
St pete catholic, was there 71-75, Dave Blackwell & Maggie Canfield were the only other "seedlings" there at the time
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Stripe on March 12, 2005, 12:49:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-03-10 06:30:00, cleveland wrote:

"Gotta respond to Thom saying how singing Zippity Doo Dah allowed him to get in touch with his emotions. Cool - I can understand that. But I guess, while the Seed allowed me to challenge the 'group think' of being cool, and having a 'druggie attitude,' I wasn't truly free until I could also question the mindless loyalty to and acceptance of The Seed.



Today, I will sing or listen to whatever song I like - I will sing silly songs and listen to what the Seed called 'druggie music' too. I am free and will question everyone..."


I have always thought those infantile songs we were forced to sing so enthusiastically just reinforced the child mentality enforced form the top down that was so pervasive at The Seed.  

What could be more degrading that forcing/allowing those on the program to sing only nursery rhymes?    Most of those songs (the Rubber Tree Plant, Zipidy Doo Dah, the Tea Pot song) I learned in kindergarten through third grade.  I think it was just another form of thought control. Subtlely degrading each of us  because it was the only approved outlet for any creative energy. Franly, I always looked forward to it because it was and acceptable outlet for screaming - ie singing as loud as I could.

Furthermore, remember how only certain persons (staff members or other favored indivudlas) were allowed to sing other, non-nursery rhyme songs?  Like when could an oldcomer not graduated or an at home person on 10 to 10, ever suggest that we all sing a current popular song that we all would know?  Never.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on March 12, 2005, 07:28:00 PM
I know when I was first at the Seed we sang those children's songs but I enjoyed them.  It was like being a kid again.  Before I came into the Seed I was too cool (or so I thought) to have ever done anything like that.  It was nice to be able to just goof around and have fun.

In the later years we did not sing those kind of songs.  We sang very beautiful songs of which hold some greatl memories for me.  

I am sure there are plenty of you who do not agree but I think it was great for me to learn how to be positive since I was so negative all of my life and saw nothing wrong with having a good additude.  I still think about those things today in my life.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Thom on March 16, 2005, 02:39:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-03-09 10:11:00, GregFL wrote:

"

Thom said...."My emotional, spiritual, and in many respects, mental development were essentially shut down when I joined the ranks of the drug using/authority-hating cult(ure)."

-------------------------------------

Thom, help me here because I am confused. I thought you were a 14 year old child without a drug problem when you went in the seed. Is this wrong? How then did joining the ranks of the non drug using/authoritarian yet authority hating cult(ure) of the seed help anything? You were a child Thom...picture your own son at 14 locked down, isolated, screamed at and forced to sing humiliating childish songs and then ostracised at school for being a part of a weird fringe group. Wish that on him?



And yes, the restriction of freedom along with the singing of child songs is a simple yet effective mind control technique used by cults the world thruout."
Sorry you got confused, Greg. I'll try to type more slowly  ::spam::
Was it zippety do-da or slippery do-do?
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on March 16, 2005, 02:20:00 PM
Everybody signed themselves in, unless there was an actual court order. I signed myself into Straight, too. But, as you well know, there was absolutely nothing voluntary about it.

You mean you took yourself down there or asked mom to take you? I really don't know how that happened and I really would like to. I don't know why, exactly, just that it's family history.

I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment, to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure.
--Clarence Darrow, American lawyer

Title: More Trivia
Post by: marshall on March 16, 2005, 04:20:00 PM
We took the grandkids to see "Robots" last night. The movie contained a couple of seed songs of the type we were discussing. "I'm a little teapot" & one I'd forgotten about; "If you're happy & you know it..." I wish the seed's repertoire of korean mind-control techniques had included forcing us to watch children's movies and cartoons. I like them better than the songs.

If they'd insisted we wear large diapers, I suppose some of us would now be saying;...'I thought that I was too cool to wear diapers until I got straight.' We could've been forced to suck our thumbs too. Come to think of it, now that many of us are getting up in years the diaper thingie might have been good practice for our approaching 'Depends' years. :lol:

BTW, I am really not familiar with the technique of infantile song singing being used in cults or for political indoctrination. If greg or someone could provide the links or info on that I'd appreciate it. (I keep trying to picture the denizens of the russian gulag dancing the hokey pokey...just doesn't click)
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on March 16, 2005, 04:50:00 PM
Marshall be careful, some grandpa taking your kids to a Korean mind control movie.  My god-have you gone mad? :silly:
YOU NEVER KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Thom on March 16, 2005, 06:33:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-03-16 11:20:00, Antigen wrote:

"...You mean you took yourself down there or asked mom to take you? I really don't know how that happened and I really would like to. I don't know why, exactly, just that it's family history. "


Must have been the latter, since I was not of driving age at the time. I chose to go to the Seed. I was not under any external threat or compulsion. I get the impression this was a bit unusual, but I guess it explains why I wasn't yelled at or locked in. I was not a flight risk.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on March 17, 2005, 04:14:00 AM
Quote
In my view, a 14 year old child using illegal drugs to fit in, be cool, cope with life, mellow out, whatever, has a problem already. I was not an addict, but I saw the kind of trouble some kids who were more involved with drugs were getting into. Grades dropping, skipping school, stealing cars, escalating drug use, etc. I wanted to learn how I could avoid some of these pitfalls.
My Seed experience was obviously different. I was there to learn. Being involved with The Seed was the best part of my childhood. Should I be ashamed of that? I won't.


Thank you for validating what I've always believed to be a great learning experience for me!!(THE SEED) Are you from the St Pete Seed?
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Robin Martin on March 17, 2005, 04:17:00 AM
Quote

Must have been the latter, since I was not of driving age at the time. I chose to go to the Seed. I was not under any external threat or compulsion. I get the impression this was a bit unusual, but I guess it explains why I wasn't yelled at or locked in. I was not a flight risk.
"


DITTO, My friend...It's good to know we were not all "Gregs" or "Gingers"   :eek:
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Thom on March 17, 2005, 06:39:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-03-17 01:14:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Thank you for validating what I've always believed to be a great learning experience for me!!(THE SEED) Are you from the St Pete Seed?"

No, Ft. Lauderdale, and thank you for the thank you! Usually when I post such "controversial" personal experiences here, I am challenged by Staff  :grin:
Title: More Trivia
Post by: cleveland on March 17, 2005, 09:44:00 AM
Ugh, please. What's this compulsion to have everyone agree still? We are all on the same team - ex-seedlings - whether we want to be or not, whether we feel like the experience saved us or enslaved us (clever, eh?). Anyway, personally, I am glad there are 'Gregs,' 'Gingers,' 'Thoms,' 'Marshalls,' 'Lauderdales,' yup and 'Robins,' and I don't feel we all have to agree.  Just think of all the other people who never ever post, or even read, about their experience, and probably never think about what was good or bad about it.

'The unexamined life is not worth living,'

or

'The unlived life is not worth examining!'

Love you all!!!

Hey, if you want to see really angry people go to the Straigh forum and read Animals or Froderick - whew!
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on March 17, 2005, 10:52:00 AM
This forum is for all former seedlings to have a place to come to rehash the past. I get turned off when I read posts that seem to put others down if not totally in agreement with their seed experiences. Then I feel I am back in the seed where our thoughts and feelings are not allowed to be totally open without a can of worms ready to explode in our faces and being ashamed that we feel the way we do.
Thom and Antigen have major issues to deal with and maybe you guys need to call each other and talk!! Life is way too short to have such animosity towards each other. I sense it is more from Antigen then from Thom. Again I get this feeling from reading the posts.
I also know from reading the posts that Greg hated every minute in the seed and has alot of pent up anger still from his time there and I respect that....but when someone comes along with wonderful carefree memories of love and peace from the seed....Greg comes down on them with Cult this and Cult that.
This forum should be a place that we can say what we want to without the shit hitting the fan and offending someone.
We all experienced the seed...good or bad...but this is the only place we can come to talk about the things that only we can talk about with each other. Not even our own children, spouses or friends can we talk about this time of our lives to. They just can't relate (oops another word from the seed "relate")
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Thom on March 17, 2005, 11:49:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-03-17 06:44:00, cleveland wrote:

"Ugh, please. What's this compulsion to have everyone agree still?"
I agree.  :razz: What I saw was a post from myself that some others here could relate to, and they expressed their feelings about the post, and offered encouragement. I saw no compulsion or any other unhealthy thing in it. I personally have no agenda to sway anyone to my way of thinking. I just share my stuff, some agree, some psychoanalyze. We all have our ways of reacting to other's expressed thoughts, and as far as I'm concerned, that's OK. I am learning alot here, even from the 'Monster at the Side of the Group'
I think it's good to hear from all extremes of Seed experiences. This is a worth-while endeaver, and although I may not always agree with my 'lil Sister, I do admire her greatly for her tenacity and determination to understand what happened to a big chunk of her life. I know where she gets it. Our Dad was an amazing man. An example: where some might write to their Congressman, Dad would write to everyone's Congressman and Senator as well as many newspapers and TV networks. His views were well known by many in Washington and various State Houses, and in some areas he did make a difference. I wish we had been able to keep him longer, yet, when he passed, it seems parts of his character were dispursed among his kids. Strange, but true.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Tony Stark on March 18, 2005, 03:47:00 AM
Once in the Seed and once in Straight inc. But soon after I'd been to psychiartrists and really expensive upper-class rehabs I signed myself in at LIFE. The other rehabs were stupid and the other's I found out the hard way just government thought reform cool-aid stands. :smokin:

Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.  
Andrew Tannenbaum

Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on March 18, 2005, 10:49:00 AM
Thom, that's more than a bit unusual. It's almost hard to believe.

If you want a voluntary urine sample from me it'll have to be a taste test.
--Bumper Sticker

Title: More Trivia
Post by: Thom on March 18, 2005, 07:36:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-03-18 07:49:00, Antigen wrote:

"Thom, that's more than a bit unusual. It's almost hard to believe.
"

OK, I guess you got Dad's tenacity and his skepticism... I wondered who got that part! :rofl:
Title: More Trivia
Post by: GregFL on March 23, 2005, 10:36:00 AM
Sorry I haven't responded. I am in the middle of a family emergency. You guys are in my thoughts and I will be able to spend some time here hopefully next week. My only comment is that everyone here is indeed, or should be, on the same side. That is the side of exploring our experiences and learning from each other.

Take care all.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Cayo Hueso on March 23, 2005, 10:57:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-03-23 07:36:00, GregFL wrote:

"Sorry I haven't responded. I am in the middle of a family emergency. You guys are in my thoughts and I will be able to spend some time here hopefully next week. My only comment is that everyone here is indeed, or should be, on the same side. That is the side of exploring our experiences and learning from each other.



Take care all.





"


Good to see you!! :wave: You're missed!  Hope everything works out OK.

People everywhere enjoy believing things that they know are not true. It spares them the ordeal of thinking for themselves and taking responsibility for what they know.
BROOKS ATKINSON (1894-1984), Once Around The Sun, 1951.

Title: More Trivia
Post by: GregFL on June 17, 2005, 09:52:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-03-17 07:52:00, Anonymous wrote:



I also know from reading the posts that Greg hated every minute in the seed and has alot of pent up anger still from his time there and I respect that....but when someone comes along with wonderful carefree memories of love and peace from the seed....Greg comes down on them with Cult this and Cult that.

This forum should be a place that we can say what we want to without the shit hitting the fan and offending someone.



Man, somehow I missed this and never addressed it.

Anon, you are just wrong about your perceptions. While I did resent being put in the seed, there was a period of time while I was there that I bought into the whole seedling thing.  That passed quickly once I graduated.

I am not angry at my seed experience. Hell, it was over 30 years ago.  I moderate this forum for the sole purpose of discussion because I think for a lot of people it is important to confront what happened to them, and it is fun discussing issues with people with a common background.

Anon, this is a place where you can say whatever you want, but all forums, and this one included, have people that don't agree.  Expect that on a forum.  All I ask is we all respect each other and avoid personal attacks.

I do have strong opinions on this type of "treatment" for juveniles, but my opinion is just that, no more or less valid than yours or anyone else's here.  I will continue to express my opinion when the mood moves me.

 I wish you knew how hard I have worked to foster an environment of inclusion of everybody that went to the Seed on all sides of the issue and not just make this a soapbox for one side or the other. But that vision of the SDF requires participation and understanding of the goal of this website, and forums in general require tough skin sometimes because people openly express various opinions and even get testy with each other, and not everybody is able to carry on that type of conversation.

That being said, I am proud of the way the people in this forum have kind of become a community of people, not divided along pro-seed or anti-seed sentiments.

I hope you are also enjoying this forum and hope you participate often regardless of how you view your time spent in your childhood warehouse.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on June 21, 2005, 11:50:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-06-17 06:52:00, GregFL wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-03-17 07:52:00, Anonymous wrote:

I also know from reading the posts that Greg hated every minute in the seed and has alot of pent up anger still from his time there and I respect that....but when someone comes along with wonderful carefree memories of love and peace from the seed....Greg comes down on them with Cult this and Cult that.

This forum should be a place that we can say what we want to without the shit hitting the fan and offending someone.


Anon, you are just wrong about your perceptions. While I did resent being put in the seed, there was a period of time while I was there that I bought into the whole seedling thing.  That passed quickly once I graduated.

That being said, I am proud of the way the people in this forum have kind of become a community of people, not divided along pro-seed or anti-seed sentiments.


You're kidding, right?? :rofl:
Title: More Trivia
Post by: GregFL on June 22, 2005, 09:29:00 AM
Not at all.

How many forums have you been around?

This is more peacefull than say, the St Pete times forum or just about any political forum in the entire cyberworld.


It is a devisive issue and I think many people (but not all) have been able to breach their differences here. I correspond with people on all sides of the issue.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: seamus on June 22, 2005, 02:52:00 PM
I remember thaT FUCKED UP show from when i lived in Dania 68-71. Ill be damn,I remember him as being drunk though , I often wonder if KRUSTY the clown was based on him . Does any body remember that amusement park [pirate world]? maybe?
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on June 22, 2005, 03:01:00 PM
I remember Pirates World :silly: Saw Grand Funk Railroad, Guess who and others in the very early 70's.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: AnonAnon on June 22, 2005, 04:01:00 PM
Grand Funk and Blood Rock (DOA?) I caught that one, and am told I had a good time.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on June 22, 2005, 04:09:00 PM
Maybe I was with you, I probably passed out or something-back then. What high school did you go to? Was it on Earth? :scared:
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on June 22, 2005, 04:11:00 PM
Gee maybe I was there with you. I probably passed out back then also.  What high school did you go to? Was it on Earth? :scared:
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on June 22, 2005, 04:13:00 PM
Sorry I have a stuttering problem :scared:  :rofl:
Title: More Trivia
Post by: AnonAnon on June 22, 2005, 04:16:00 PM
Either Pompano Jr. High, or Fort Lauderdale Christian, depending on the year.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on June 22, 2005, 04:29:00 PM
Plantation for me.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: marshall on July 01, 2005, 01:07:00 AM
Most of you probably remember when lots of people used to claim to hear all sorts of hidden messages in popular music...backward masking,etc. I was just sitting here listening to "Creque Alley" by the mamas and papas and remembered something just as weird that originated from seedlings. When I was a newcomer several oldcomers were talking about this song (creque alley). Some were suggesting that the song has a line that says; "Mitchie wants to go to the Seed." This was even brought up in a rap once. There was also the suggestion (delusion) that the peter frampton song 'Show me the way' refered to the seed.

This all seems so weird and funny now. Creque alley was written in 1967...several years before art started the seed. Peter Frampton writing songs about the seed? :lol: A bunch of silly kids. I suppose it isn't that surprising given the seedling delusion that we were so special and chosen...surely the world must revolve around us. Manson thought the beatles were sending messages to him in their songs too.  BTW, that line from Creque Alley is "Mitchie wants to go to the sea." Duh.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Thom on July 01, 2005, 08:21:00 AM
Remember when Chris Farley did a mock interview on SNL with Paul McCartney, and he asked if that stuff about him being dead was a hoax, and Paul said, "well, I'm not dead"?.....that was awesome!
Title: More Trivia
Post by: echothis on July 04, 2005, 08:48:00 PM
Anon Anon what year did you go to Pompano Jr, I also went there.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: AnonAnon on July 05, 2005, 06:16:00 PM
part of 71, then switched to a private school to get away from 'old druggie friends' my new druggie friends at the christian school could afford the better grade weed and decent acid.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on July 05, 2005, 10:19:00 PM
Did Bea K land up at FLCS by the same way? Always wondered what the connection was between our families.

No gods, no masters.
--margaret Sanger



_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
Title: More Trivia
Post by: AnonAnon on July 05, 2005, 11:59:00 PM
Hey, Ginger...I'm AnonAnon! You're not supposed to know it's me! Maybe I'll try AnonAnonAnon...(oh, no. that's the program for people who talk too much.)

As for Bea, I can't place her @ The Seed. The only connection I recall is that the publisher switched our names in the yearbook one year. Boy, did that boost my self esteem!
   Hugs to those young ladies of yours!
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on July 06, 2005, 01:35:00 PM
Sorry, Bro. I thought you were being charmingly coy. Didn't think you were actually trying to be anon. In the interest of fair play, you could use an anon proxy. That way I wouldn't have any advantage over anyone else in figuring out who's posting, except familiarity w/ your style.

Anyway, I always wondered about the K family. Me and De (Bea's li'll sister) were just getting to be friends when I got dissapeared. But before that, me and unco used to give them a ride to school most days. May be that their parents just knew we lived pretty close together and needed transport. But I always wondered if there was something else.

And hugs to yours. We all want to go see Whirled Beet. But it seems like every time we almost have a plan together, some expense comes up to rain on our parade.

To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical.
Thomas Jefferson

Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on August 05, 2005, 08:02:00 AM
wow Oakridge  Elementary :em:  I went to Kindergarten there back in 1972 I guess. My neighborhood Elementary school didn't have a K class.I still remember my teacher Mrs Bowes. First crush I had.. ahhh those were the days.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on August 05, 2005, 08:18:00 AM
This is Mr Bowes.  I hope that crush is over now.  :grin:
Title: More Trivia
Post by: rod on August 12, 2005, 12:59:00 AM
Cathy,
    If you are still living in the same neighbourhood as Enie Peterman please tell her that Rod said hello and that I hope her and her family are doing well.We knew each other at Bogie.She entered the Seed a few months before I did
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Robin Martin on August 12, 2005, 01:54:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-08-11 21:59:00, rod wrote:

"

  Cathy,

    If you are still living in the same neighbourhood as Enie Peterman please tell her that Rod said hello and that I hope her and her family are doing well.We knew each other at Bogie.She entered the Seed a few months before I did"

Enie was instrumental in my recovery and one of my VERY favorite staff - please tell Enie I say "hello" and hope all is well w/ her world. I don't imagine she would remember me, personally, but would like to thank her just the same!
Title: More Trivia
Post by: rod on August 12, 2005, 04:11:00 AM
On 2005-03-17 01:17:00, Robin Martin wrote:

"
Quote
Must have been the latter, since I was not of driving age at the time. I chose to go to the Seed. I was not under any external threat or compulsion. I get the impression this was a bit unusual, but I guess it explains why I wasn't yelled at or locked in. I was not a flight risk.
"


DITTO, My friend...It's good to know we were not all "Gregs" or "Gingers"   :eek: "

 Hate to burst ya alls bubble but I signed myself in,was motivated,wanted to learn,participated like crazy and got out of my two week program and into my three month program
rather quickly.I was well behaved and treated fairly well by staff.I was never come down upon until I left but then forced to return.Why did a motivated,hardworking seedling decide to leave.
  I got this gut feeling that something was seriously wrong.That gut feeling had been evolving for a while and started with the come down sessions.I remember some heavy duty ones.When I tell others who haven't a clue about the Seed or straight about the come down sessions thier mouthes drop in shock.But the realization came while I was on my three months and it had to do with the amount of food.You should be able to figure that out.
  As I said before ,do a little more reading and research.The thing is, after a little studying a few years after getting out ,I realized that,in
that gut feeling I was right.The question we should be asking is: does the end justify the means?In other words,do we as free civillized Americans believe in the abolishment of basic constitutional rights and condone the use of torture(some things that happened at the seed would be seen as torture under international law,deprivation of sleep and water for example)on children?If we do believe that it's o.k. then maybe we shouldn't be calling ourselves American!And actually you can look at this politically. The same people who created straight Mrs.Sembler
 being one, was out telling protesters they shouldn't be protesting on the public sidewalk in front of Baywalk, which is a constitutional
right but, then what do the founders and organizers of the Seed and Straight or thier government buddies care about rights and free thought!
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on August 12, 2005, 10:03:00 AM
Welcome Rob. And thanks for understanding.

If anybody's interested in discussing the method, here's an idea. Watch Brat Camp on Wed night on ABC. I think there are about 2 or 3 eps left. It's a "reality" tv sort of thing about one of the new wave in bm programs, a wilderness program called Sage Walk. It's interesting to me and, imo, relavent to this discussion because it demonstrates nearly identical methods used under a completely different setting. And, of course, because it's happening right now.

History does not record anywhere or at any time a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unkonwn without help. But, like dandruff, most people do have a religion and spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable pleasure from fiddling with it.
--Robert A. Heinlen, American science-ficiton author

Title: More Trivia
Post by: Thom on August 12, 2005, 11:55:00 AM
Quote
History does not record anywhere or at any time a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unkonwn without help. But, like dandruff, most people do have a religion and spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable pleasure from fiddling with it.
--Robert A. Heinlen, American science-ficiton author


"


Would you go to a Podiatrist to find a solution to a heart problem?...Then why go to a science fiction writer for spiritual guidance? His opening statement is false. The Bible is the all-time best-selling history book, and lays out a VERY rational plan for living based on the fact that we did not create ourselves, and would be wise to develop dialog with the One who did.
Beam me up, Godie! ::dove::
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on August 12, 2005, 12:33:00 PM
Well hey Thom, how goes it? Thanks for not leaping to my throat directly. I apreciate that. If you want, you can go directly to the random quote generator at http://fornits.com/quotes.php (http://fornits.com/quotes.php) and argue with it to your heart's content.  :razz:

Seriously, though, how are you? And what do you think about some of the recent discussion?

In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a trade unionist. Then they came for Catholics, and I didn?t speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."
--Protestant minister Martin Neimoller

Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on August 13, 2005, 08:11:00 PM
Nothing, that's what I figured.

Either cocaine and marijuana are terribly dangerous substances, and breaking the law by consuming them is a major offense that should be severely punished, or these are minor, personal matters that do not really count in the big picture of a man's life. If the latter is the case, then the rationale for a bloody, costly and futile war against drugs simply disappears.
--Jorge G. Castaneda, Newsweek International, September 6, 1999

Title: More Trivia
Post by: Nihilanthic on August 13, 2005, 08:31:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-08-12 08:55:00, Thom wrote:

"
Quote

History does not record anywhere or at any time a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unkonwn without help. But, like dandruff, most people do have a religion and spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable pleasure from fiddling with it.

--Robert A. Heinlen, American science-ficiton author



"




Would you go to a Podiatrist to find a solution to a heart problem?...Then why go to a science fiction writer for spiritual guidance? His opening statement is false. The Bible is the all-time best-selling history book, and lays out a VERY rational plan for living based on the fact that we did not create ourselves, and would be wise to develop dialog with the One who did.

Beam me up, Godie! ::dove:: "


Truth is truth, no matter who says it.

But regarding going to a sci-fi writer for religion, you should go find a scientologist.

BTW harry potter has outsold the bible now :smile:

Talk about it and let the truth find its own way.
Some Joker

Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on August 13, 2005, 09:03:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-08-13 17:31:00, Nihilanthic wrote:

BTW harry potter has outsold the bible now


Really now! I think HP is another candidate for archological diety in another thousand years. Him and Bilbo could go down in the next civilization's history as prophets, don't ya think?

Oh, and I just read something about the second coming of Christ from Revelations. Said he'd be made of bronze and have a sword for a tongue. Osama, maybe?

Were the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now. Thus in France the emetic was once forbidden as a medicine, and the potato as an article of food. Government is just as infallible,[sic] too, when it fixes systems in physics. Galileo was sent to the Inquisition for affirming that the earth was a sphere.... It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.
Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia

Title: More Trivia
Post by: Thom on August 14, 2005, 02:22:00 AM
Ging, did your reading in The Revelation mention anything about the cowardly acts of terrorism allegedly masterminded by USAma? Somewhere in the Bible it states that everyone will see Him at once. Maybe USAma was a passenger on the second plane. Perhaps he WAS the plane! That would explain why they can't find him.(any diety could fake the videos that have come out since)
In answer to your questions earlier about whats up? And what do I think of the recent dicussions? Not much, and not much. :smile:
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Thom on August 14, 2005, 02:27:00 AM
Quote

BTW harry potter has outsold the bible now


Well, at least the kids are reading something.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on November 09, 2005, 10:24:00 PM
I was on Skipper Chuck too! I actually selected the balloon at the end with the chalk in it and won! I gave away all my candy to everyone in the studio!

Dwgiht
Title: More Trivia
Post by: landyh on November 22, 2005, 03:34:00 PM
I don't remember that but I was put on the "Skipper Chuck" show at about 12 years old as a happy smiling representative of The Seed. This is starting to creep me out.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on November 22, 2005, 04:11:00 PM
I think I remember you landy.  You were a cute little kid and a smart one to boot if my memory serves me right.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: landyh on November 22, 2005, 04:12:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-18 07:13:00, Anonymous wrote:

"She's talkin "Century Village" 55 and over adult living condos.  Chuck zink I think did a movie that Art Barker was in also.  Some of the Seed kids went on "Skipper Chuck Show" for a short time way back then."


Yea I was one of them at about 12 or so on my second go round
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on November 22, 2005, 04:22:00 PM
Blond Hair and alot of it I think...
Title: More Trivia
Post by: landyh on November 22, 2005, 04:25:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-03-04 20:44:00, korne wrote:

"I remember Zappa, Black Sabbath, Tull at Pirates world.  Also remember several local guys that were very good at guitar.  HH guys who played at great local parties.  I often wonder how I survived with so many drugs. But, I have survived well!

Legalizing drugs would simultaneously reduce the amount of crime and raise the quality of law enforcement. Can you conceive of any other measure that would accomplish so much to promote law and order?  
--Economist Milton Friedman

"


Isaw Paul Butterfield Blues Band with my sister and her boyfriend. There was pot everywhere
Title: More Trivia
Post by: landyh on November 22, 2005, 04:29:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-03-02 04:47:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:

"Does anyone remember Dina singing "Lost and lonely

Children" or Penny singing "People" or Tommy M. singing "People Get Ready"& playing his guitar. :smile:   or also Penny singing "Summertime". Everytime I hear those songs today I think of them. Nice memories for me. OK the Dina song she made up- but it was appropiate for how I personally felt at the time.

[ This Message was edited by: Ft. Lauderdale on 2005-03-02 04:48 ]"


I can't believe the memories you just triggered for me. I loved to hear Penny sing People. She was awsome. I can't picture Tommy M. but I can hear him singing the song in my head. This had to be at the location that became the haunted didn't it. Or the first little house.  I was just nine years old and leading raps around that time maybe 10. This place is unbelievable.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: landyh on November 22, 2005, 04:31:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-03-03 14:11:00, TRUCKER wrote:

"Thats right.Black lady ,round face,big smile and short hair and love to sing and knew she could.One of her favorit songs was the "impossiable dream". Does any one remember talent night around xmas when the staff sang "Heard it thru the grape vine"



                  TRUCKER"


If it was between 69' and 71' yes.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: landyh on November 22, 2005, 04:38:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-03-09 04:47:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:

"OK here we go again. Singing those songs was to let certain emotions out that we were too cool to do. Hey it helped me.  I don't go around singing them today.(maybe I think I am too cool now)

 :silly: "


I agree I was uplifted and had fun with those songs and heck I was a kid. Does anybody remember the term we used to describe that spiritual uplift was it "high on life" not sure lots of things are fuzzy.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on November 22, 2005, 04:47:00 PM
Yep that was on Andrews but Tommy M. was sr 84.  But I think he may have been on 3rd ave as well.
Do you remember Bonny she was his sister in law.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: landyh on November 22, 2005, 04:50:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-03-10 11:49:00, GregFL wrote:

"There is some dissention on this board and even a thread of incredulty when it is mentioned that the seed used cultic methods.



Here is an account with my comments in parenthesis of how someone used to be recruited into the moonies back in the seventies. It may have changed or maybe not...



                 ________

Generally, the recruit meets organizational officials over a quiet dinner. Moon is not mentioned, religion is seldom broached. While you eat, you listen to their lectures and prayers and share in their singing, the recruiters constantly smile throughout the encounter. The youth is asked to attend a three-day workshop. (this is the common deceptive recruiting technique, in the seed it was done at the 'intake' and after wearing you down it was suggested to you to  "just sign yourself in for three days and then you can leave if you want).



The first recognition individuals have when arriving for the three day workshops, is that the followers of Moon regard each other as a family....(no comment necessary)



The recruit is not left alone.(right!) As the neighbors of the Moonie encampment in Pope Valley have attested to, they walk in pairs.(YES!) ... It becomes immediately apparent to you that you are not to be left alone and that all 'spiritual children'(or in our case, Seedlings) have someone of their opposite sex(for seedlings, same sex) from the family assigned to them. If you should wander off by yourself, someone will follow you and politely ask you to rejoin the group.(or as the case with the seed, tackle you to the ground and drag you back to the group) You are even escorted to the rest room." (same!)The book continues, "You also learn that there is a rigidly held schedule. There are specific times for eating, exercising, playing, singing, listening to lectures and discussing them.(and no, absolutely no, exceptions to the schedule) You are separated into small groups, led by a team leader who has to have perfect control, not approximate control.(yep!) From the beginning, the leader directs his or her group like a kindergarten teacher, telling you when to do this or that."(and how to talk, what to say and when and how to say it under the threat of punishment).



If the leaders of the group should slacken in their enthusiasm or diligence, they are sternly reprimanded.(in the seed, started over or demoted to junior staff) The recruit is rarely permitted to engage in any casual conversation with anyone.(in the seed, never) They are only allowed to speak about spiritual things(or in our case, seed approved things when called on) within a structured framework. Creativity is frowned upon, conformity is stressed.(and required) "All day you are bombarded by ideas and concepts," (12 hour per day structured groups) states The Puppet Master.(this was a book written on the moonies) "There is little relaxation, and so your resistance is low.(no relaxation at all at the seed). When you refrain from sharing or resist in any way, you are met with benevolent concern.(in the seed, confrontation) Peer approval is an important technique which subtly tells you to conform. The family members aim directly at your most vulnerable points: the need to belong, to feel useful and to feel love.(same as the seed) Throughout the workshop you are flooded with affection, hugs, pats, hand-holding and smiles."(same as the seed, but usually only when you were in compliance)



Recruits react to the regimental control by trying to please.(as a coping method, same in the seed) "But, you quickly learn that the only way to please is to conform,"(completely and absolutely) The Puppet Master states. "You succumb many times to small acts of conformity without realizing it.(yes!) You feel guilty when you hold back, and you are told that wanting to be alone is a symptom of fear and alienation." (being alone is never an option in the seed)It is at this point that the recruit is asked to join the movement.(in the seed, encouraged to 'work his program') The family member who has spent all the time with the specific recruit (oldcomer in the seed) will beg and plead for the recruit to stay.(and "get straight) There will even be tears along with promises. They will continue to implore until you decide to join," (get straight, and if they fail, the seed would assign someone else to work on you)The Puppet Master states.



After joining the Moonies, the recruit will be given about two weeks of adjustment. They call it "losing", a period when the recruit's desires become nothing. Recruits are allowed to return home for one visit (earn the right to speak to your parents at group), but they must be accompanied or tailed by a Moonie. After that one visit, the recruit's communication with his natural family is reduced to mainly correspondence, and that diminishes rapidly.(this is a difference in voluntary cults because the family in essense joins the seed cult with you. If they don't, your contact is severely limited or forbidden as mine was with my mother)  "When you do step out into the world, it is a shock, a cultural shock," states The Puppet Master. "You are taught that everyone not in the movement is under the influence of Satan (or as with the seed..'unaware or druggies') and that you should mistrust them..... no doubt they are trying to take your mind away. You begin to fear the world and those in it. Thus you become dependent on the group for love and positive reinforcement. After alienation is complete, you are told that you can leave if you want."



After the "losing period" the regimentation becomes even more rigid. The recruit is required to adhere to even more demanding workshop schedules. They sleep five or six hours a day.(same in the seed, and studies show teenagers need much more sleep or they cannot function correctly) Their diet consists of starchy foods and low proteins.(early stages of the seed and when there for weekends) Often they fast for many days.(no fasting, but extremely limited proteins and liquids in early stages of the seed) The recruit must now fundraise and recruit others.(absolutely but recruiting was done thru parents in the seed) The recruit must sing and pray before meals, before classes, before work, before evening gatherings. Most songs are traditional or Korean hymns. Alcohol and drugs are forbidden.







 :eek: "


I like the references but the food thing at the very early Seed was a money thing the way I remember it. They had a kitchen right there in the main room. My second time at st rd 84 I thought the pb and j were still a cost issue. Not sure just the way I remember it.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: landyh on November 22, 2005, 05:08:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-03-16 15:33:00, Thom wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-03-16 11:20:00, Antigen wrote:


"...You mean you took yourself down there or asked mom to take you? I really don't know how that happened and I really would like to. I don't know why, exactly, just that it's family history. "




Must have been the latter, since I was not of driving age at the time. I chose to go to the Seed. I was not under any external threat or compulsion. I get the impression this was a bit unusual, but I guess it explains why I wasn't yelled at or locked in. I was not a flight risk.
"


My first time was voluntary too I followed my sister in I think she felt guilty that she had let start somking pot and drink with her when I was only nine. Seems to me that in that very early time it was all voluntary. Any body go back far enough like me to remember Hap and Mavis. Mavis's claim to faim (she was a tough ex drinker form New York) was in the Seed song she inserted the line "if you F**k up then I'll break your leg" and everybody would laugh but they didn't hurt anybody back then ever. Remember the "Hot Seat" I think it didn't start until we moved to the place that became the "Haunted House" If you got caught in "Bull Sh*t" you had to sit on a toilet while the group "helped" you through it. That was the closest thing to torture in those early days that I can remember.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: landyh on November 22, 2005, 05:30:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-06-17 06:52:00, GregFL wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-03-17 07:52:00, Anonymous wrote:







I also know from reading the posts that Greg hated every minute in the seed and has alot of pent up anger still from his time there and I respect that....but when someone comes along with wonderful carefree memories of love and peace from the seed....Greg comes down on them with Cult this and Cult that.



This forum should be a place that we can say what we want to without the shit hitting the fan and offending someone.






Man, somehow I missed this and never addressed it.



Anon, you are just wrong about your perceptions. While I did resent being put in the seed, there was a period of time while I was there that I bought into the whole seedling thing.  That passed quickly once I graduated.



I am not angry at my seed experience. Hell, it was over 30 years ago.  I moderate this forum for the sole purpose of discussion because I think for a lot of people it is important to confront what happened to them, and it is fun discussing issues with people with a common background.



Anon, this is a place where you can say whatever you want, but all forums, and this one included, have people that don't agree.  Expect that on a forum.  All I ask is we all respect each other and avoid personal attacks.



I do have strong opinions on this type of "treatment" for juveniles, but my opinion is just that, no more or less valid than yours or anyone else's here.  I will continue to express my opinion when the mood moves me.



 I wish you knew how hard I have worked to foster an environment of inclusion of everybody that went to the Seed on all sides of the issue and not just make this a soapbox for one side or the other. But that vision of the SDF requires participation and understanding of the goal of this website, and forums in general require tough skin sometimes because people openly express various opinions and even get testy with each other, and not everybody is able to carry on that type of conversation.



That being said, I am proud of the way the people in this forum have kind of become a community of people, not divided along pro-seed or anti-seed sentiments.



I hope you are also enjoying this forum and hope you participate often regardless of how you view your time spent in your childhood warehouse.



 "


I just found this place and don't feel as if it were an accident and while my first post was mostly very positive in view of my experience at  The Seed. Reading some of the opposing points of view has triggered some very emotional memories that are not at all positive.  I think my view is shaped uniquely by the fact that I went through the program twice before I was thirteen. The two experiences are vastly different. I realize I can sit on both sides of this experience depending on the time frame. Going from the voluntary experience at the little house on andrews during my first run through was a vastly different experience to the all out kiddnapping by my own parents when I went to St rd 84 on the second go round. I for one am glad that I can talk out of both sides of my mouth on the subject of The Seed in an honest way here. Because I have both hostility and love for the program pehaps I have something to share that bridges in someway the gulf between those too sides. Cheers and thanks for being there to help provide this forum. When I hit Google this morning I just knew it would be here and I am glad it is.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on November 22, 2005, 05:54:00 PM
I'm glad you came along too, landyh. I don't know anybody else but me who was involved at such a young age. Now, I never sat in on group, far less on those vaunted bar room stools (btw, they had those at Straight too... anyone else find that ironic?) But I was in on the endless clatches at Denny's after open meeing on SR 84 and a good bit of Programming in our home, around the diningroom table and whenever I tagged along w/ my brother and the New Crusty Nostrils.

I definitely remember the rush of having grown ups bow to my impressive "Awareness". Looking back, of course, I was such an obnoxious prig! But, what's done is done.

Also, I think you probably can answer some questions about the way things were before the ominous 1313 Andrews ave (well, 1315, actually... but the other way sounds better, uh?) There's a legend that the first group started out on Art's yacht tied up at the Playboy Mansion or some such. Any truth to that? Cause the way I remember Art's telling of it, he had started getting the building ready to open before the first Seedling ever arrived and found that his entire work crew were all druggies. So he sat them down and started feeding them beans or something along those lines. Which story is closer to the facts?

If quitting drugs means joining the war on terrorism, does this portend the fire bombing of Amsterdamn ?

--Felton Manifestation

Title: More Trivia
Post by: landyh on November 22, 2005, 06:18:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-11-22 13:11:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I think I remember you landy.  You were a cute little kid and a smart one to boot if my memory serves me right."


I hesitate to answer for fear of being sent to the "Hot Seat" for being in my ego but I suppose that would be an accurate description. As to the cute part on my first go round at nine my favorite thing about being there was that all the girls would pay alot of attention to me kisses and hug were OK because I was so little. I think I got lectured once during one of  those kisses when I slipped the (adult or late teen and pretty)girl a little tongue. I don't think she was quite  ready for that. When i look back on the fact that I was leading rap sessions at no more than ten years old I am kind amazed by it. Do I get a chance to remember who you are. I wonder if you remember me from little house, haunted house or strd 84
Title: More Trivia
Post by: landyh on November 22, 2005, 06:21:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-11-22 13:22:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Blond Hair and alot of it I think..."

Yes! That's me.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: landyh on November 22, 2005, 06:31:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-11-22 13:47:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:

"Yep that was on Andrews but Tommy M. was sr 84.  But I think he may have been on 3rd ave as well.

Do you remember Bonny she was his sister in law. "


I know that name but I am not sure if I have an accurate picture of who she was. I was thinking the little house was just on a different part of andrew until you mentioned 3rd ave
Title: More Trivia
Post by: landyh on November 22, 2005, 06:45:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-11-22 13:11:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I think I remember you landy.  You were a cute little kid and a smart one to boot if my memory serves me right."

BTW I meant to say thank you for the wonderful compliments on the mini me. Thanks
Title: More Trivia
Post by: landyh on November 22, 2005, 06:54:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-11-22 14:54:00, Antigen wrote:

"I'm glad you came along too, landyh. I don't know anybody else but me who was involved at such a young age. Now, I never sat in on group, far less on those vaunted bar room stools (btw, they had those at Straight too... anyone else find that ironic?) But I was in on the endless clatches at Denny's after open meeing on SR 84 and a good bit of Programming in our home, around the diningroom table and whenever I tagged along w/ my brother and the New Crusty Nostrils.



I definitely remember the rush of having grown ups bow to my impressive "Awareness". Looking back, of course, I was such an obnoxious prig! But, what's done is done.



Also, I think you probably can answer some questions about the way things were before the ominous 1313 Andrews ave (well, 1315, actually... but the other way sounds better, uh?) There's a legend that the first group started out on Art's yacht tied up at the Playboy Mansion or some such. Any truth to that? Cause the way I remember Art's telling of it, he had started getting the building ready to open before the first Seedling ever arrived and found that his entire work crew were all druggies. So he sat them down and started feeding them beans or something along those lines. Which story is closer to the facts?

If quitting drugs means joining the war on terrorism, does this portend the fire bombing of Amsterdamn ?

--Felton Manifestation


"
I can't state with cetainty the yacht story but I remembered it when I read it just now. My sister may have been on the boat I 'll ask her  as soon as I can. I already left her a message that she needs to get over here. I hope she does as she would probably have more clarity because she was 4 years older than me. The yacht happened its the details I can't verify.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: landyh on November 22, 2005, 07:08:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-11-22 14:54:00, Antigen wrote:

"I'm glad you came along too, landyh. I don't know anybody else but me who was involved at such a young age. Now, I never sat in on group, far less on those vaunted bar room stools (btw, they had those at Straight too... anyone else find that ironic?) But I was in on the endless clatches at Denny's after open meeing on SR 84 and a good bit of Programming in our home, around the diningroom table and whenever I tagged along w/ my brother and the New Crusty Nostrils.



I definitely remember the rush of having grown ups bow to my impressive "Awareness". Looking back, of course, I was such an obnoxious prig! But, what's done is done.



Also, I think you probably can answer some questions about the way things were before the ominous 1313 Andrews ave (well, 1315, actually... but the other way sounds better, uh?) There's a legend that the first group started out on Art's yacht tied up at the Playboy Mansion or some such. Any truth to that? Cause the way I remember Art's telling of it, he had started getting the building ready to open before the first Seedling ever arrived and found that his entire work crew were all druggies. So he sat them down and started feeding them beans or something along those lines. Which story is closer to the facts?

If quitting drugs means joining the war on terrorism, does this portend the fire bombing of Amsterdamn ?

--Felton Manifestation


"

I don't mean to keep double replying to the same posts I just realized though that I didn't fully answer your question. First I was probably a little piggish no doubt as well but I still think in regard to my first experience that the validation and attention I recieved during that time has helped me to this day with some of the esteem issue that probably got me there in the  first place. How old were you and what time frame did you go thhere in? The little house was much more in my mind AA oriented and this was partly because of the influence of Hap and Mavis I am not  at all sure about this but I think pulling away to a greater degree from those AA roots may have been why Hap and Mavis left. I know something happened.  Being in AA now and understanding how in spite of  the personalities involved its loose framework is a large part of what makes it such a wonderful program and I think they made a mistake when they pulled away from that. I think we even passed the basket there I can't remember if that continued later as it does it AA. Hopefully more will come back to me because you guys have already triggered so much that I had forgotten.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on November 22, 2005, 10:31:00 PM
Well, I was 5 or 6 when my brothers went in. Then I guess I was about 8 or 9 when my sister went and one brother returned. Meantime, the other brother married a staffer, Pam O (I seem to recall there were two Pam's) Why, you almost couldn't swing a cat around the Seed w/o hitting one of my kin square in the ass.

Then when I was 16, I landed up in Straight. John later told me that my parents had been trying to get me into the Seed for awhile and to get my sister started over because of a poor romantic choice.

So basically, even though I wasn't in group, it followed me around like a dark cloud. All the other kids knew, I wasn't really allowed to associate w/ non-seedlings. That left one friend, a boy 4 years younger than me by virtue of his brother having been a Seedling in good standing.

To put one toe over the line in any way, intentionally or not, was unthinkable, though I didn't have quite as much surveilance to worry about once my sister graduated highschool.

sunday school: A prison in which children do penance for the evil conscience of their parents.
--H. L. Mencken, American publisher



_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
Title: More Trivia
Post by: TheWho on November 22, 2005, 10:37:00 PM
Anyone here at watkins glenn in '73?  I think we walked 5 miles from where we parked, remember the rain and almost every set.  I dont think they can pull that off anymore, too bad.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: landyh on November 22, 2005, 10:53:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-11-22 19:31:00, Antigen wrote:

"Well, I was 5 or 6 when my brothers went in. Then I guess I was about 8 or 9 when my sister went and one brother returned. Meantime, the other brother married a staffer, Pam O (I seem to recall there were two Pam's) Why, you almost couldn't swing a cat around the Seed w/o hitting one of my kin square in the ass.



Then when I was 16, I landed up in Straight. John later told me that my parents had been trying to get me into the Seed for awhile and to get my sister started over because of a poor romantic choice.



So basically, even though I wasn't in group, it followed me around like a dark cloud. All the other kids knew, I wasn't really allowed to associate w/ non-seedlings. That left one friend, a boy 4 years younger than me by virtue of his brother having been a Seedling in good standing.



To put one toe over the line in any way, intentionally or not, was unthinkable, though I didn't have quite as much surveilance to worry about once my sister graduated highschool.

sunday school: A prison in which children do penance for the evil conscience of their parents.
--H. L. Mencken, American publisher


Sounds like they were'nt going to give you a chance to need the seed.  Islolated and guilty by association hell yea you might as well have used and joined just to have more friends. I'm sorry for your trouble. I see you have family here too. Kinda neet. I hope I can get my sister here. She drug me along the first time out of guilt and we were both kidnapped the second. I went home before her and I was so excited when she came home.  She ran away that night at 16 and I didn't see her for a very long time by the time my dad found her she was emancipated. So I have some great memories too.
"
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on November 22, 2005, 11:10:00 PM
Landy can you describe how you came to be chosen to lead raps at such a young age? did it have to do wit u cute loks and r u still cute?
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on November 23, 2005, 12:06:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-11-22 19:53:00, landyh wrote:

hell yea you might as well have used and joined just to have more friends.  

The thought did cross my mind.

Quote
I'm sorry for your trouble.

Thanks.

Quote
I hope I can get my sister here. She drug me along the first time out of guilt and we were both kidnapped the second. I went home before her and I was so excited when she came home.  She ran away that night at 16 and I didn't see her for a very long time by the time my dad found her she was emancipated. So I have some great memories too.

"


Oh, that would be great. The more we can really understand how it all started, I think the easier it is to understand it all now.

Do you and your sister get along these days?

The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma.
--Abraham Lincoln, U.S. President



_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
Title: More Trivia
Post by: landyh on November 23, 2005, 09:52:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-11-22 20:10:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Landy can you describe how you came to be chosen to lead raps at such a young age? did it have to do wit u cute loks and r u still cute?"

I think it may have been partly that. I also had a fairly high IQ along with a level of damage and destruction in my life that went further than even I could acknowlege at the time (very extreeme for my age and that point in time). Further on the IQ side of interest is that yes I test out between 136 to 140 but I am also left handed which puts me  in the right side of my brain. That had implications for the type of thought of which I am capapable. I deduce through intuition and other deep feelings as much as or more than logic. This cetainly served to help me grasp the program in a  certain way. I was often described as precociuous which was probably accurate in many several ways. Sexually, my life experiences and I had the ability to absorb and convey the message of the ptogram in a very adult like manner (people told me this).  I think all those things combined together to bring me to lead rap sessions that and the fact that for whatever reason I was capable of doing it confidently and well. I seem to recall that it started with helping Charlie in group but I am not sure though it would explain in part why I remember feeling very close to Charlie. This is all coming from someone who had terribly low self-esteem for lots of reasons ( read my other posts) when he got there. As to being cute I suppose I still (dimples don't go away I guess)elicit that feeling in woman which has been a blessing and a curse. Much of my dating years I would have prefered to have been seen as attractive in a more decidely macho way. But in retrospect cute kept me in enough trouble and still does in some ways :lol: I hope that answers your question. I guess I could add that I am in whole new set of dating years. Aint life grand?
Title: More Trivia
Post by: landyh on November 23, 2005, 10:02:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-11-22 21:06:00, Antigen wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-11-22 19:53:00, landyh wrote:



hell yea you might as well have used and joined just to have more friends.  




The thought did cross my mind.



Quote

I'm sorry for your trouble.




Thanks.



Quote

I hope I can get my sister here. She drug me along the first time out of guilt and we were both kidnapped the second. I went home before her and I was so excited when she came home.  She ran away that night at 16 and I didn't see her for a very long time by the time my dad found her she was emancipated. So I have some great memories too.



"




Oh, that would be great. The more we can really understand how it all started, I think the easier it is to understand it all now.



Do you and your sister get along these days?

The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma.

--Abraham Lincoln, U.S. President





_________________

Drug war POW

Straight, Sarasota

`80 - `82"

My sister and I get along extremely well but don't get to spend near enough time together with her in Ft Lauderdale and me in Orlando. Our relationship  is mostly limited to the phone. Regretfully this year the man she ran away from the seed to be with, her husband of 30 years, passed away due to a heart attack. I don't know if she will even have the capacity to face what lies here along with the healing that she is already going through. I hope so but there are some difficult aspects to being here I would suspect for all of us. I know for myself I need to be here at least for a while.  I am certainly going to use all my seedling powers to get her here   :wink:
Title: More Trivia
Post by: GregFL on November 23, 2005, 10:35:00 AM
Welcome Landy!

I always suspected we would get one of you people that got admitted at 9 years old.

I am so interested in hearing more from you. I often wondered what the hell the parents of these youngsters were thinking.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: GregFL on November 23, 2005, 10:51:00 AM
On 2005-11-22 13:50:00, landyh wrote:

"
Quote


I like the references but the food thing at the very early Seed was a money thing the way I remember it. They had a kitchen right there in the main room. My second time at st rd 84 I thought the pb and j were still a cost issue. Not sure just the way I remember it."


Well, that would be "nice" if it were true, but the bare fact is Art Barker received money hand over fist in 73, including 1,000,000 from the government, money from charitable groups, money twice a week from parents, all the food was donated, and even the warehouse in st pete was donated, and the staff was paid a pittence.  Money was taken from the open meetings in massive amounts.

So, where was my food since he now had ample money, and why was I eating wet peanut butter sandwhiches along with a small dixie cup of watery cool-aide?

No, the money issue was just a justification, this was part of your "treatment", along with a way to get out of the circumstance by complying, going home and eating your mother's home cooking. Remember those "my mom's _______ is the best in the word, and I can't wait to go home to some home cooking raps?


No, the truth of the matter may be hard to conceive, but the fact is that we were treated this way as a method to break our will.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: landyh on November 23, 2005, 11:13:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-11-23 07:35:00, GregFL wrote:

"Welcome Landy!



I always suspected we would get one of you people that got admitted at 9 years old.



I am so interested in hearing more from you. I often wondered what the hell the parents of these youngsters were thinking.







"

Thank you for the kind welcome.
I was the first person anywhere close to that age when I came and I dropped into a world of hardened junkies and criminals. The early people were much more serious users than what came later. I was fascinated by their stories. Wished I had more history in some ways not that I didn't have enough.  I don't even remember if my dad knew at first that my sister had taken me there. He was a guy who was trying to raise two kids pretty much on his own. He never in his life used, drank, smoked, cursed and was basically an honest hardworking guy who had no frame of reference from which to help his own children. He was guilty of having to spend most of his time working which gave us a lot of freedom. When he did come to the seed he was  concerned to make sure that this place had some base in God. I can still remember being in the office with my dad and Hap and Hap patiently telling my dad that he believed in God and parphrasing lines from Matthew I think from the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus said we should pray in private. Whatever it was it was enough to pass my dads sniff test. Remember he knew nothing about how to deal with this there wern't lots of options and Art could certainly put a parent at ease and I wanted to go. The second time was a terrorist event in my mind. I was kiddnapped. But why wouldn't he have gone back there? At intake it took 5 big staff members to accomplish my strip search the violence was mostly mine. I had a stout four finger bag in my underwear. I was 12 years old this time. If I had been big enough I would have hurt them destroyed them. Fuck them. I wanted them dead right there. That was my sh*t I stole it fair and square from my sisters lb at home. I was such a sweet little kid. To be fair to myself and even them my anger had a deeper source. I wasn't abused at the seed but I was pissed. Iknew what real abuse was and this wasn't it.On another note I wondered what they did with that bag it was some good weed.  :lol: [ This Message was edited by: landyh on 2005-11-23 08:18 ][ This Message was edited by: landyh on 2005-11-23 08:21 ]
Title: More Trivia
Post by: GregFL on November 23, 2005, 12:04:00 PM
Your story so far is fascinating but not unusual. A kid experiences extreme trauma and rejection from his parent(s), lashes out in anger and all his problems are assumed to be the evil drug marijuana.  A one size fits all lock down treatment model is prescribed, and it doesn't work.  The kid spends his life thinking he deserved what he got and goes on to substance abuse issues later in life.

It sounds like what you needed were things the seed could never give you, a real family..protection from your abusers, and a method to deal with your problems that just didn't replace them with dogma.

I am glad you are here now, but not so glad you didn't get the help you really needed back then.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: landyh on November 23, 2005, 05:33:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-11-23 09:04:00, GregFL wrote:

"Your story so far is fascinating but not unusual. A kid experiences extreme trauma and rejection from his parent(s), lashes out in anger and all his problems are assumed to be the evil drug marijuana.  A one size fits all lock down treatment model is prescribed, and it doesn't work.  The kid spends his life thinking he deserved what he got and goes on to substance abuse issues later in life.



It sounds like what you needed were things the seed could never give you, a real family..protection from your abusers, and a method to deal with your problems that just didn't replace them with dogma.



I am glad you are here now, but not so glad you didn't get the help you really needed back then.



"

Unique only in that i was the first that young.
i wouldn't need the help if they would take the tylenol out.:wink:

"Now I'm out of prison
Got me friend at last
He don't drink or cheat or steal or lie
His name is Codeine and
He's the nicest thing Ive seen and
Together were going to wait around and die
Together were going to wait around and die"
Townes Van Zandt
R.I.P.[ This Message was edited by: landyh on 2005-11-23 14:47 ]
Title: More Trivia
Post by: landyh on November 23, 2005, 08:21:00 PM
Quote



No, the truth of the matter may be hard to conceive, but the fact is that we were treated this way as a method to break our will.



"


I still stand by my comment regarding the little house. We had real cooking  and it was always something simple but good. Things really did start out different as hard as it may be to believe to those that wern't there but you hear some of my views expressed by people that were. To me it makes me sad. I don't know what Art Barker became but I do know that the program changed. In the beginning Art would accept money yes but not from the goverment. Too many strings attached. When I went back the second time Art was so islolated from the group for the most part he couldn't have known all that was going on. But its like people talking about getting hit there. i don't doubt them it just wasn't my experience. I still believe if he would have stayed with the roots of the program he could have actually had something worthwhile. I watch how AA works and it is truly amazing. They actually have a set of priciples in there traditions that keep shit like what happened to the seed from happening. Every group is different, self supporting, not allowed to use the press in any way.  I think Art knew Bill Wilson personally but if Bill W would have gotten his way AA could have easily gone the way of the seed. I think it was actually Rockefeller that turned Bill's request for money down and suggested some of what they eventually did. Personalities threaten AA groups all the time but the principles  keep things working pretty darn well. Of course they say in AA that all you need is a coffee pot and a resentment to get a new group started. Just a thought but if you accept that it probably wasn't good for many of the kids out there to continue using the way they were then you have to look at why you fight drug abuse differently than say alcoholism. In a very real way the life style of drugs was sort of a peer pressure cult too. It dictated how you dressed, what you listend to, how you acted, who you hung out with, pulled you away from family and there were rules and little special behaviors (hand shakes and peace signs). I always thought the point was that we were brainwashed to some extent by that culture to begin with. You might say you could leave anytime you wanted to but could you really walk away from 100 dollar a day habit on a whim? And if you did you face social ostrazation by the group. The only real difference is that in trying to fit in we drifted into the drug culture almost without realizing it. Nobody dragged us in. I know if I ever faced losing my child to what the drug culture really was at its core I would do whatever I could to stop it. I mean how would you feel about your own child huffing laquer thinner like I did. Even knowing what it did to the real huffers. I would be willing to resort to drastic action to save my child. How far is OK cause I was killing myself and while the seed couldn't stop it slowing it down probably saved my life. Even moving to Alcohol because of its social acceptabiity was an improvement in some way though for me potentialy just as deadly. I think the body politic creates alot of the problem by virtue of criminalization. just jabberin
Title: More Trivia
Post by: cleveland on November 24, 2005, 08:46:00 AM
landy, i am glad to hear about you here. i agree with you about the idealism of the seed, i am sure in the early days (tho that toilet seat bothers me bad). i guess i was there for the 'middle period', 7 years and the sense of idealism was there. it inspired me. on the other hand, the conformity to the 'seed way' was stifling, and that was the ultimate reason i left.

i kind of look at things as you do - culture of conformity in the drug world too, after all, the standards were set by a bunch of kids, not written down. i was drawn to the 'counterculture' when i was a kid, because of the idealism, love, back to the land, the music, pretty girls, thinking i could be myself. then i found it to ne just as harsh a world as any, worse in some ways because i expected more. i was brutally disappointed and so i embraced the seed.

i don't go to AA, i have family that does. i take all in moderation, that is key for me. a glass of wine, great, but that's me. if my child was huffing lacquer thinner, what would i do?

w
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on November 24, 2005, 10:15:00 AM
I've never found that druggie culture of conformity to exist. There's a school clique thing. If you think the straight edge jocks an cheerleaders are any less cruel than any other crowd you're trippin'. Not only are they about the meanest, but some of them revel in their ability to call down force of law on their rivals and enemies.

The pot heads I've knowd down through the years have all been pretty easy going about things like musical taste and fashion. So I just don't know where you guys found these controling, exclusive drug culture cells.

In war, the stronger overcomes the weaker. In business, the stronger imparts strength to the weaker.
--Frederic Bastiat

Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on November 24, 2005, 11:53:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-11-24 07:15:00, Antigen wrote:

"I've never found that druggie culture of conformity to exist. There's a school clique thing. If you think the straight edge jocks an cheerleaders are any less cruel than any other crowd you're trippin'. Not only are they about the meanest, but some of them revel in their ability to call down force of law on their rivals and enemies.



The pot heads I've knowd down through the years have all been pretty easy going about things like musical taste and fashion. So I just don't know where you guys found these controling, exclusive drug culture cells.

In war, the stronger overcomes the weaker. In business, the stronger imparts strength to the weaker.
--Frederic Bastiat


"


I was shunned by the jocks and the cheerleader clique because I was a druggy. If you are saying those groups are cult like too I never got to know enough about them to find out. I think a culture is more pervasive than a clique and if you are saying the drug culture was just a big clique I think that is incorrect.  Remember I ran with a somewhat  more coercive group than most can relate to. I can only speak from my point of experience and am willing to agree that yours could have been different. On the other hand I got into drugs in a time that using was only part of it. Hippy  culture which espoused individualism was just another group of clones. My group all wore the same elephant bell jeans, colored pocket t's, we were wearing our pants half off way before any rapper came along, You needed holes in the knees, dingo boots, patches, we espoused individualism, peace, love and happiness but in truth you had to fit in, leave or change the way you were to belong.  And while we espoused thosed ideals we were all a bunch of backstabbing thieves and liers. In fact the early seed was the first time I ever saw anything that resembled the ideals we talked about. I could let down my guard for the first time ever in my life and talk about things like fear which I could never show with my druggie friends.  Then somebody would share and say you know underneath it all I was just a scared little kid myself and I felt bad about turning away from the love of my family too. All my toughness was just a front. That was real acceptance to me to find out I could reveal what I felt inside and not only still be liked but but find out that I wasn't alone anymore. My friends were too "tough" to care about each other. I knew what it felt like to be enslaved to a group of habits that I knew were hurting me yet not be able to stop. SO I found some freedom for a time in the program too. I wish you could have been there in the beginning so you could understand how different things were. Because I agree that the seed I went to the second time was not the seed I went to the first time. But even going there helped in the sense that it go me to the place that I could fit in with some of the more "normal" kids at school. Did some of them drink or smoke a little pot? Sure but on the whole they were half way decent kids with some principles for the most part. Maybe more like the kids you knew? I wouldn't have got there without the seed because I couldn't see the world beyond what I had already experienced. Now my group was not maybe the norm. The percentage of pyschopathic monsters was astoninshingly high among them. You know that from my posts but I really want to talk from experience and not some study on what constitutes a cult. Before the seed I was decieving myself about what and who I was and when I got there they didn't tell me I was wrong they just said to look at it a little deeper see if there was something common in my deeper feelings with those of others in the group. There was a common thread and I could relate. All my drug use had done was expose me to the experience of violence and hate which I hadn't known before. Then I trapped myself in that life and tried to be more like them so I could survive. Singin zippity do da was good for me it what I should have been doing in the first place. For Gods sake I was a baby trying to put on a front that I was a man. The seed let me be a kid again for real inso far as I could go back. I often think if I could have been totally honest about what was really going on I might even have gotten better then. When you have buried rage though and you try to carry it off to the side it's bound to erupt every once in a while. Ginger I wonder why it is I like you so much even when we disagree. Maybe because your willing to listen but not take things at face value. Wonder where you got that from.:wink: Some might say  the seed just had me kidding myself in a different way. But they sent me inside myself for answers not outside so I don't think so. They didn't say we have the answers for you they said you have the answers inside of yourself if your willing to look there and look there hard. So now that I have wrapped my experience in pretty paper and tied it with a bow I have to say that my second time around wasn't quite right. They had given me the tools to see that, to recognize the rampant egotism of the newer staff, the forced and more coercive atmosphere. I am sure glad I went there the 1st time I wish you could have experienced it to. So I wouldn't have to type so much.   :wink:
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on November 24, 2005, 11:58:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-11-24 05:46:00, cleveland wrote:

"landy, i am glad to hear about you here. i agree with you about the idealism of the seed, i am sure in the early days (tho that toilet seat bothers me bad). i guess i was there for the 'middle period', 7 years and the sense of idealism was there. it inspired me. on the other hand, the conformity to the 'seed way' was stifling, and that was the ultimate reason i left.



i kind of look at things as you do - culture of conformity in the drug world too, after all, the standards were set by a bunch of kids, not written down. i was drawn to the 'counterculture' when i was a kid, because of the idealism, love, back to the land, the music, pretty girls, thinking i could be myself. then i found it to ne just as harsh a world as any, worse in some ways because i expected more. i was brutally disappointed and so i embraced the seed.



i don't go to AA, i have family that does. i take all in moderation, that is key for me. a glass of wine, great, but that's me. if my child was huffing lacquer thinner, what would i do?


Ditto brother except for that moderation sh*t. Whats that all about? I sure wish I knew.

w"
:wink:
Title: More Trivia
Post by: landyh on November 24, 2005, 12:07:00 PM
Quote
Ditto brother except for that moderation sh*t. Whats that all about? I sure wish I knew.
:wink:"


That was me sorry[ This Message was edited by: landyh on 2005-11-24 09:08 ]
Title: More Trivia
Post by: marshall on November 24, 2005, 10:43:00 PM
quote----------
" In a very real way the life style of drugs was sort of a peer pressure cult too. It dictated how you dressed, what you listend to, how you acted, who you hung out with, pulled you away from family and there were rules and little special behaviors (hand shakes and peace signs). I always thought the point was that we were brainwashed to some extent by that culture to begin with."
-----------------

First, welcome to the forum. I've really enjoyed reading your posts too. What you're describing here as the drug culture also describes virtually every social group through-out history. The 20's flappers had their own music,lingo and styles, the 50's greasers and today's kids have their own lingo, music, body-piercing, etc. It isn't unique to the drug-culture and could even be applied to american culture itself.  It also very much describes the culture of the Seed while I was there.

 " It dictated how you dressed, what you listend to, how you acted, who you hung out with, pulled you away from family and there were rules and little special behaviors.." That also describes the Seed through and through. I understand the idea was to use  peer pressure to counteract peer pressure. This can produce marked outward changes in whatever direction the group chooses. The method of conditioned thought-reform can be used to achieve any end. It can create good, conforming communists, make homosexuals (outwardly) into straight people, achieve conformity of belief and behaviour in religious groups. It all amounts to substituting one form of conditioning for another..without honestly examining the reasons and motivations behind conditioning itself. I question the whole idea of using coercive peer-pressure to modify behaviour of any sort.

Many people have benefited from groups like Scientology, SGI buddism, Hare Krishna and even the most bizarre and controlling groups have some good points or ideals. I view the Seed in much the same way as I do many of these sects. Such groups usually not only claim to have 'an' answer....but 'the' answer. This results in the type of one-size-fits-all approach prevalent at the Seed and similar programs.

Finally, I note that once again someone (yourself) who has battled on-going and recurrent addiction issues since the seed program credits that program with saving your life and testifies to it's effectiveness. In my view, that belief and conclusion is itself likely a result of the program's conditioning...or 'brainwashing' if you prefer a stronger term. I too parroted this part of the party-line for years after graduating the program. I only suggest that you apply the self-inquiry / honesty that was touted by the program to the program itself. Can honest self-inquiry and examination actually result from peer-pressure and conditioning? It's sort of like threatening to torture someone unless they love you. You might be able to get them to show outward signs of affection or speak the words you want to hear, but geniune love can't be produced via threat or coercion. Neither can genuine awareness be the result of comparison and belief. Self knowledge is not a form of conditioning and can not arise from any conditioning, however idealistic or well-intentioned. It arises from understanding the nature of all conditioning itself. Not just druggie culture conditioning as opposed to straight-world or seed conditioning...but includes examining so-called patriotism or nationalistic conditioning and various forms of religious conditioning and belief as well. Take care.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on November 26, 2005, 12:47:00 PM
Wow!

Ok, I haven't read your whole post yet (except I spotted my name, and I like you too :wink:) but I have to answer this:

Quote
On 2005-11-24 08:53:00, Anonymous wrote:

 Because I agree that the seed I went to the second time was not the seed I went to the first time. But even going there helped in the sense that it go me to the place that I could fit in with some of the more "normal" kids at school. Did some of them drink or smoke a little pot? Sure but on the whole they were half way decent kids with some principles for the most part.


I saw the same thing. So either it really happened that way or we're sharing a trip. See, my older brothers went in very near the beginning, I think in 1970. And the whole atmosphere was just so much more laid back. The blithe, vacant smiles and constant "luv ya's" as greeting and salutation, just like "Aloha" were a bit creepy. But, overall, I didn't get the feeling early on (now, this as a 6 or 7yo little kid) that it was a violent, hostile or overtly coercive group. Just weird, but in a mostly nice sort of way.

But that thing that you mention as a benefit? Being able to transition from an evidently very messed up social circle back into something more in line w/ community standards? That was quickly eliminated.

By the time I was starting to turn into a teenager, it was total isolation. The dogma had taken on a life of it's own. I don't think Art had any concept of what was happening or any real control of it. He was too high on all the adulation. If 90% of teenagers were druggies, as Art said (and Art was damned near infalible in my mother's eyes) then it's best not to take any chances. No problem if I wanted to hang out with my brother's 23yo ex junkie friends. But the guitar playing kid w/ the peach fuzz moustache? Why, his hair touches his collar... he might be a...... brilliant classical guitarist who went on to Berkeley music school on a musical scholarship by the time I escaped the Program and looked him up through his dad who was none too keen on an alleged former junkie trying to track down his son...

There was no fitting in. The plan changed. The entire culture became insular and paranoid so that transitioning back into the real world was seen as a failure. Anyone who did that would be shunned totally, even by family.




It really puzzles me to see Marijuana connected with Narcotics - Dope and all that crap?it's a thousand times better than whiskey - it's an Assistant - a friend.
Louis Armstrong

Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on November 26, 2005, 01:05:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-11-24 08:53:00, Anonymous wrote:

Some might say the seed just had me kidding myself in a different way. But they sent me inside myself for answers not outside so I don't think so. They didn't say we have the answers for you they said you have the answers inside of yourself if your willing to look there and look there hard. So now that I have wrapped my experience in pretty paper and tied it with a bow I have to say that my second time around wasn't quite right. They had given me the tools to see that, to recognize the rampant egotism of the newer staff, the forced and more coercive atmosphere. I am sure glad I went there the 1st time I wish you could have experienced it to. So I wouldn't have to type so much.  


Yeah, I think maybe to a degree. I think maybe there's a big difference between how people perceive the whole experience based on whether they really want and need help or not. For you? Telling the truth may have fit the Program; it was just what they wanted to hear. For me? I had to keep it all bottled up and carefully hidden. Was I depressed and careless? Oh yeah! Why? Because I was trying to impress druggiefriends who always treated me badly and stuff?  :rofl:

Well, that's what I had to say. But it never had been true. I didn't HAVE any friends, damne it! Except the other jr Seedling, who was a boy 4 years younger than me. When I got to be about 12 or 13, I was embarrased to be seen w/ him, so I quit hanging out with even him. I was just starting to make a couple of real friends. It just happens that they sampled the pharmacopia.  That was way on the periffery, nothing like a central issue. The reasons why we were starting to be friends were things like speaking up for me when the cheerleaders were especially cruel to me. Or the one classmate, student government officer, cheerleader and all, who risked her political currency by stating that I had been right and she wasn't going to rat me out for finally defending myself against another persistant bully in the locker room.

Real stuff. The real stuff that I needed. But I couldn't let my mother find out I had friends at all because... well, like any good DA can indict a ham sandwich, all teenagers were suspect. And we just don't want to go there, do we? Since my Bible teacher was my pastor and my science teacher, part time band instructor and tennis coach was my deacon and sunday school teacher, I couldn't have friends or it would get back to her.

THAT is why I was so fucking depressed! I don't know what would have happened in the early Seed if I had sat voluntarily on front row for three days then stood up and said "Know what? This isn't for me. I have no idea what you fucked up people are talking about." and walked away. In the 2nd generation Seed that I found myself in 10 years later, there would have been violence. So I had to lie and call it Honesty. Just like most of the rest of us did.

I can't imagine that, at your tender age and given the kind of trauma you'd been through, that the Program dogma didn't maybe unduely influence your thinking. But I don't think you're out to coerce anyone to agree with you or otherwise do any harm with it. So I really don't have a problem with it. I do have an interest, though. So just let me know if I come off as disrespectful or mean spirited. I'm really not. But I am fascinated w/ this whole story. See, I can't get family history out of my family. That's partly due to their Victorian roots on one side and raw acrimony on the other. But a big part of it is that I'm an apostate to Program culture while they're all either militant Stepcraft practitioners or they're humoring the others in the name of peace. In a big way, this IS my family history.

I was born a heretic. I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
--Susan B. Anthony, U.S. reformer and suffragist



_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
Title: More Trivia
Post by: landyh on November 28, 2005, 04:45:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-11-26 10:05:00, Antigen wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-11-24 08:53:00, Anonymous wrote:




Yeah, I think maybe to a degree. I think maybe there's a big difference between how people perceive the whole experience based on whether they really want and need help or not. For you? Telling the truth may have fit the Program; it was just what they wanted to hear. For me? I had to keep it all bottled up and carefully hidden. Was I depressed and careless? Oh yeah! Why? Because I was trying to impress druggiefriends who always treated me badly and stuff?  :rofl:



Well, that's what I had to say. But it never had been true. I didn't HAVE any friends, damne it! Except the other jr Seedling, who was a boy 4 years younger than me. When I got to be about 12 or 13, I was embarrased to be seen w/ him, so I quit hanging out with even him. I was just starting to make a couple of real friends. It just happens that they sampled the pharmacopia.  That was way on the periffery, nothing like a central issue. The reasons why we were starting to be friends were things like speaking up for me when the cheerleaders were especially cruel to me. Or the one classmate, student government officer, cheerleader and all, who risked her political currency by stating that I had been right and she wasn't going to rat me out for finally defending myself against another persistant bully in the locker room.



Real stuff. The real stuff that I needed. But I couldn't let my mother find out I had friends at all because... well, like any good DA can indict a ham sandwich, all teenagers were suspect. And we just don't want to go there, do we? Since my Bible teacher was my pastor and my science teacher, part time band instructor and tennis coach was my deacon and sunday school teacher, I couldn't have friends or it would get back to her.



THAT is why I was so fucking depressed! I don't know what would have happened in the early Seed if I had sat voluntarily on front row for three days then stood up and said "Know what? This isn't for me. I have no idea what you fucked up people are talking about." and walked away. In the 2nd generation Seed that I found myself in 10 years later, there would have been violence. So I had to lie and call it Honesty. Just like most of the rest of us did.



I can't imagine that, at your tender age and given the kind of trauma you'd been through, that the Program dogma didn't maybe unduely influence your thinking. But I don't think you're out to coerce anyone to agree with you or otherwise do any harm with it. So I really don't have a problem with it. I do have an interest, though. So just let me know if I come off as disrespectful or mean spirited. I'm really not. But I am fascinated w/ this whole story. See, I can't get family history out of my family. That's partly due to their Victorian roots on one side and raw acrimony on the other. But a big part of it is that I'm an apostate to Program culture while they're all either militant Stepcraft practitioners or they're humoring the others in the name of peace. In a big way, this IS my family history.



I was born a heretic. I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.

--Susan B. Anthony, U.S. reformer and suffragist





_________________

Drug war POW

Straight, Sarasota

`80 - `82"

I don't really know what to say Antigen. I find your post to be heartbreaking. I know myself that while my experiences are terrible the worst of them came from forces outside of my family. So I had that no matter what even if it wasn't perfect. I am sorry you didn't. Do I find your posts to be mean spirited? Not in the least. I mean do I see anger in them? Yes! But not at all as directed  towards me. The Seed was a safe place for me the 1st time and I needed everyone of those "luvyas". It was a net gain for me. Because I didn't believe anybody would really accept what I really thought I was inside I never really could tell anybody. I wish I could have. I believe it kept me from getting better. I don't blame them for not being aware enough to know. Because it seems a few knew, tried to reach my hurt and I wouldn't let them. Reading about your own pain brings out my compassion, my own pain, breaks me inside and out. We were both robbed of something but in different ways. But do you see a difference in that my own trauma was from a source whose motives were to wound maybe to make me experience there own trauma's in some way. They were ill intentioned, sick, even evil. Is there no comfort in the motives that created your own pain. Seems to me that though misguided the intentions were of a different source than that of my own pain. I don't speak here to minimize your feelings because I think I grasp at least to an extent there depth. For Gods's sake i cried for you when I read this. But if peace may be found in forgiveness then and I'm not telling you it is but that it might begin there does not the intent of those who hurt you at least crack open the gateway to that path. Wherin do I find my own peace surely my own options are different. I find some in the exploration of our shared though different pain. I  thank you for that. I find myself shaken by your message to wish for your healing and no less my own. One thing that is clear to me is that the time has come for all of us to seek and find our own "answer" however and wherever we can. I just happen to belive (not know)that surely it lies somewhere in a distance beyond blame.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on November 28, 2005, 06:27:00 PM
Don't cry for me Argentina....

Seriously, yeah, I'm over it. But still interested in getting the word out. See, the Seed wasn't the only Synanon based program for teens that Bobby DuPont bankrolled. There are dozens of them out there derived from the Seed/Straight line and some hundreds more grown out of the CEDU "therapeutic" boarding schools. TC has become the accepted model for treatment of any old thang that afflicts the parents of teenagers today. I think people need to understand what that means.

And no doubt in my mind at all that it all started with good intentions. But you know what they say about good intentions.

If you want to get together in any exclusive situation and have people love you, fine- but to hang all this desperate sociology on the idea of The Cloud-Guy who has The Big Book, who knows if you've been bad or good- and CARES about any of it- to hang it all on that, folks, is the chimpanzee part of the brain working.
--Frank Zappa, American musician

Title: More Trivia
Post by: landyh on November 29, 2005, 08:46:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-11-28 15:27:00, Antigen wrote:

"Don't cry for me Argentina....



Seriously, yeah, I'm over it. But still interested in getting the word out. See, the Seed wasn't the only Synanon based program for teens that Bobby DuPont bankrolled. There are dozens of them out there derived from the Seed/Straight line and some hundreds more grown out of the CEDU "therapeutic" boarding schools. TC has become the accepted model for treatment of any old thang that afflicts the parents of teenagers today. I think people need to understand what that means.



And no doubt in my mind at all that it all started with good intentions. But you know what they say about good intentions.

If you want to get together in any exclusive situation and have people love you, fine- but to hang all this desperate sociology on the idea of The Cloud-Guy who has The Big Book, who knows if you've been bad or good- and CARES about any of it- to hang it all on that, folks, is the chimpanzee part of the brain working.
--Frank Zappa, American musician

"

Yes and I saw some of the changes so I do understand some of the strong feelings people have. Just out of curiosity does anybody here know if Teen Challenge is based on the same model that these other programs were? I am curious because my best friend and love was just disapeared into that program where I can have no contact with her. She went in voluntarily and felt she needed the help they offer and I hope she is right as I wish her nothing but the peace and happiness that she seeks I just don't really want her subjected either. And yes before anyone else says it I do recognize the terrific irony of a 44 year old man whose girlfriend is in Teen Challenge. It makes me laugh a little anyway when I think of it or would if I didn't miss her so terribly. She was there for me over the last five years through thick and thin and the loss has been very difficult and painful for me.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: NOT12NOW on November 29, 2005, 09:13:00 PM
Dear lord, how old is she?
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on November 29, 2005, 10:05:00 PM
I know a little about Teen Challenge. A lot of it does sound an awful lot like a Seed/Straight type program. But it's a lot more God based. And they do take adults under court order. I know of a guy probably in his late 30's who just did a turn through there around a year or so ago. Dunno if he'll be willing to talk about it or not, but I'm trying.

It has ever been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues

--Abraham Lincoln

Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on December 01, 2005, 01:16:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-11-29 18:13:00, NOT12NOW wrote:

"Dear lord, how old is she?"

We met in AA when she was 22. She is now 27. We were engaged to be married for a time have never really stopped loving each other though I fear what her being in this program will mean for us I am trying to turn it over to Gods will. I know she needed help that AA wasn't providing and I want her to get that help. I just don't know if this is the path to what she is seeking. The sense of loss is overwhelming. Even when we have been apart she remained my very best friend. I am not allowed to have any contact with her and I don't know how long she will be gone. She did go into this voluntarily but that has been only a small comfort for me.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on December 01, 2005, 01:26:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-11-29 19:05:00, Antigen wrote:

"I know a little about Teen Challenge. A lot of it does sound an awful lot like a Seed/Straight type program. But it's a lot more God based. And they do take adults under court order. I know of a guy probably in his late 30's who just did a turn through there around a year or so ago. Dunno if he'll be willing to talk about it or not, but I'm trying.

It has ever been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues

--Abraham Lincoln


"

Thanks Ginger. I appreciate your help. I know she needed help. I honestly think she has Borderline Personally Disorder. At least she has every symptom which while it didn't diminish my feelings for her it made things very hard sometimes. Doesn't change how much I miss her. Has anybody here read "A Million Little Pieces" and "My friend Leornard" by James Frey? Great books on one mans recovery by the way. His description of his loss of Lili describes well the feelings I've been experiencing. I guess some good has come of it because I have started working on myself again and I needed to do that. Trust me on this.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on December 03, 2005, 04:46:00 PM
Quote


Yes and I saw some of the changes so I do understand some of the strong feelings people have. Just out of curiosity does anybody here know if Teen Challenge is based on the same model that these other programs were?  "


I called teen challenge several years ago and was told they have different locations that use different techniques, with some of the locations lock-down theraputic community based.

Ie:  yes they use similar techniques in at least some of the treatment centers.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: GregFL on December 03, 2005, 04:47:00 PM
oops, that was me.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on December 03, 2005, 11:39:00 PM
junkies and freaks throughout the land, join our family hand in hand...
Title: More Trivia
Post by: landyh on December 03, 2005, 11:45:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-03 13:46:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote




Yes and I saw some of the changes so I do understand some of the strong feelings people have. Just out of curiosity does anybody here know if Teen Challenge is based on the same model that these other programs were?  "




I called teen challenge several years ago and was told they have different locations that use different techniques, with some of the locations lock-down theraputic community based.



Ie:  yes they use similar techniques in at least some of the treatment centers.



 
"

thanks for the information. God help her.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 08:59:00 AM
:cry2:  :cry2:
Skipper Chuck died yesterday.

Whatever became of Banjo Billy?  I was on his show with my kindergartin class.

Kitty
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Thom on January 05, 2006, 10:39:00 AM
Sorry to hear about Skipper Chuck's passing. What was the cause of death? Too much zinc?
Title: More Trivia
Post by: GregFL on January 05, 2006, 12:04:00 PM
okay Thom, you gonna have to explain that joke.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 04:50:00 PM
Posted on Thu, Jan. 05, 2006
CHUCK ZINK | 1925-2006TV's Skipper Chuck gave kids lots of peace, love, happinessChuck Zink, 80, who delighted countless South Florida children for decades as Skipper Chuck on the Popeye Playhouse, has died.BY ROBERT L. [email protected] D. Zink, known to hundreds of thousands of South Florida baby-boom kids as ''Skipper Chuck,'' has wished his fans ''Peace, love and happiness'' for the last time.
Zink's death was announced Wednesday by the Boca Raton hospice where he spent the last weeks of his life following a stroke. He was 80.
A lifelong entertainer, Zink was best known as the spirited host of the Popeye Playhouse morning children's show on the old WTVJ for nearly a quarter-century, from 1957 to 1979. At one point, the waiting list to be one of the 30 to 35 kids who got to enjoy the show live in the studio reached two years. In 1972, an estimated 49 percent of Dade, Broward and Monroe county televisions regularly tuned to his 7 a.m. broadcast.
In a Miami Herald Tropic interview that year, Zink attributed his success to his genuineness.
''You sure as heck will never last in the kid business being anybody but yourself,'' he told writer Robert A. Bonin. ``Kids can spot a phony a mile away -- and they'll tell you if you are.
''I'm a guy I hope these kids like to look up to,'' he said. ``I suppose as Skipper Chuck I can be sort of a hero to them -- and we all need a hero. I've never tried to be a father image or a big brother. I've just tried to be me.''
OTHER VENTURES
Although rare was the day in Zink's life that he wasn't greeted by ''There's Skipper Chuck!'' children were not his only audience.
Zink hosted Miss Universe pageants for CBS. He also hosted 22 King Orange parades, 24 local broadcasts of Labor Day telethons for Muscular Dystrophy and several quiz shows and travel programs.
He even once hosted the Orange Bowl Parade on the radio after he was booted from the annual TV broadcast to make way for younger talent, recalled his co-host at the time, current WLRN/Miami Herald News anchor Rhonda Victor.
''There was an outcry from a lot of traditionalists who were unhappy to see Chuck go,'' said Victor, who twice as a child was among the Popeye Playhouse studio audience. ``WKAT, thinking it could capitalize, decided Chuck and I could co-host that Orange Bowl Parade on radio. It wasn't the best executed plan ever, but we had a ball.''
Listeners to WJNA 640-AM heard Zink as disc jockey of his daily Lunch Bunch radio program featuring music of the '40s and '50s, which he hosted until last autumn. And in recent years he was a familiar television pitchman for the Century Village communities.
He was always brimming with new concepts to pursue, said Doris Bernhardt, who produced Zink's children's show in its later years and worked with him on many other projects.
BELOVED
''Right up until the last time I saw him around Labor Day, he was planning three different shows that he wanted to do, and I was putting the proposals together for him,'' Bernhardt said. ''
Zink, an only child, was born in South Bend, Ind., and grew up as a farm boy. He spent five years in the Marines and served as a sergeant in the South Pacific during World War II, receiving a Bronze Star for bravery. He later worked on radio in Pennsylvania, from disc jockey to program director, before becoming a television newscaster.
He came to Miami in 1956 and began as a weatherman for WTVJ. The following year, he was asked to write and host a children's program.
23-YEAR RUN
''It started out and I thought it might last six months, and it went 23 years,'' he said in an interview with Miami-Dade TV in the late 1990s.
As Skipper Chuck, Zink employed occasional set-pieces, but mostly he and his longtime sidekick Scrubby, played by Richard Andrews, followed an ad-lib format. Zink opened each show with a three-finger wave, and another standby was the song, Peace, Love and Happiness. The live audience was filled with children who sat in bleachers, cheered, played games and chatted with Skipper Chuck, Scrubby and the show's other characters.
''It was completely spontaneous; we'd get together an hour, half hour before the show,'' said Andrews, who joined the show in 1962 in addition to his duties in the WTVJ mailroom. Andrews also was the voice of Limbo the Lion and other puppet characters.
Zink ''was wonderful to work with,'' Andrews said. ``We were like, symbiotic. I would know what he was going to say and vice versa. I don't know how. We're not socially close. But we worked together very well. It was easy.''
Doreen Ernst was 9 years old when she won a role on Popeye Playhouse as Annie Orphanic, which she played for the next 11 years. Her fond memories of the show include the 80 to 150 public appearances Zink and the cast would make each year for children in hospitals, clinics and orphanages.
''Never in my life have I ever met anybody who was as good with kids as Chuck,'' said Ernst, who is Bernhardt's daughter.
MORAL STAND
Zink didn't claim to be broadcasting educational television. ''I'm not an educator. I'm an entertainer,'' he once said. But Zink took a courageous moral stand in the 1950s when he insisted that in-studio audiences for Skipper Chuck's Popeye Playhouse no longer be racially segregated. This was unprecedented for a southern TV station of the day -- which earned Zink national praise.
In its early days, Zink said, the playhouse had been playing either to all-black or all-white studio audiences. One day, he heard the program's reservation-taker asking a phone caller, ''Are you colored?'' Incredulous, he ordered the person ``never to ask that question again.''
The show went through ''pure hell'' making the policy stick, Zink said.
The show also went on to win two regional Emmy awards.
`HAPPY GUY'
Zink and his wife, Clarice, never had children, a fact that Zink said gave him ``greater patience with kids than if they were my own.''
At the end of the interview with Miami-Dade TV, which was filmed when he was 72, Zink reflected on his lengthy career and broad appeal.
''Nobody could have had a better life than I did,'' Zink said, his impish grin filling the television screen. 'I get up every day and I just say `Thank you, God. I don't know why, but you made me a very happy guy.' ''
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on January 06, 2006, 12:06:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 07:39:00, Thom wrote:

"Sorry to hear about Skipper Chuck's passing. What was the cause of death? Too much zinc?"


No, that was his girlfriend, Mrs. Finklestein.

A multitude of laws in a country is like a great number of physicians, a sign of weakness and malady.


--Voltaire, philosopher (1694-1778)

Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on January 06, 2006, 12:11:00 AM
Skipper Chuck's Popeye Playhouse - eventually renamed The Skipper Chuck Show because the Popeye cartoons were deemed to be "too violent" - was a fixture in South Florida for 20+ years.  I watched it in the 60's and early 70's as a kid.  

There was Skipper Chuck (Chuck Zinc), Scrubby the klutzy janitor, Little Annie Orphanik, Sargeant Dick Cargill (real policeman who'd come in and talk about safety), HoHo the Clown (yes, a real clown who did in fact commit suicide in the early 70's - in an odd coincidence I met his son and knew him for a couple of years when I was 15) and more.  Of course, there was the cartoon "windmill" - Skipper Chuck would tell the kids in the audience (and at home) to blow to make it spin which would start the cartoons.  The show was locally produced in Miami.

I wish I knew what happened to the people I mentioned.  Skipper Chuck went on to be a national co-chair of the Muscular Dystrophy Association and in what I call somewhat jokingly a "cradle to grave" policy, he went from entertaining kids to being the spokesman for Century Village, properties for senior citizens.  Chuck just passed away a couple of days ago at age 80 from a stroke he suffered in late December, but was working almost to the end.

We also had Banjo Billy's FunBoat on the ABC affiliate, another local show.  I believe the boat's captain (Captain Jack) was played by Jack Metzger.  I remember the banjo, the cheap boat set and the captain but not much more.  

Of course, after Skipper Chuck was Captain Kangaroo!  Ah...I miss those fun-loving days!

BB in Miami
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Thom on January 06, 2006, 12:26:00 AM
[ This Message was edited by: Thom on 2006-01-05 21:36 ]
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Thom on January 06, 2006, 12:35:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 21:06:00, Antigen wrote:

"
Quote

On 2006-01-05 07:39:00, Thom wrote:


"Sorry to hear about Skipper Chuck's passing. What was the cause of death? Too much zinc?"




No, that was his girlfriend, Mrs. Finklestein"

assuming Chuck had wood.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on January 06, 2006, 12:45:00 AM
Oh, he did he did! He hooked up w/ Bob Dole at the inhouse studio at the Village. I heard he's Rush's connect too. :rofl:

Vain are the thousand creeds that move men's hearts, unutterably vain, worthless as wither'd weeds.
--Emily Bronte

Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on January 13, 2006, 01:28:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-11-30 22:26:00, Anonymous wrote:

Has anybody here read "A Million Little Pieces" and "My friend Leornard" by James Frey? Great books on one mans recovery by the way. His description of his loss of Lili describes well the feelings I've been experiencing. I guess some good has come of it because I have started working on myself again and I needed to do that. Trust me on this."


Funny you should mention it. A friend just sent Bill a copy of that. Unfortunately, it's about as authentic as Lybbi's $1k/day heroin habit. Check it out.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/ (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/)

Oh, this is worth reading too.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/jamesfrey/ ... frey2.html (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/jamesfrey/freysides/singerfrey2.html)

I think I'm going to send Mr. Bastone a demand letter about trying to steal my patented method for pimp slapping litigious jaberwocks.
 :rofl:

The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by an endless series of hobgoblins; all of them imaginary.
H.L. Mencken, 1923



_________________
Drug war POW  
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on January 13, 2006, 07:56:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 21:26:00, Thom wrote:

"[ This Message was edited by: Thom on 2006-01-05 21:36 ]"


 :question:  :question: "Sorry, I'm not allowed to talk to you?" :question:  :question:

Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make  some of the worst movies in the history of the world.
-- Dave Barry

Title: More Trivia
Post by: Jupiter Survivor on January 16, 2006, 07:12:00 PM
Antigen,
Do you know when Straight opened in St Pete?  
I remember at the Ft Lauderdale Seed they were going to do some type of a news letter and the group was asked to come up with names.  Not know anything about Straight, I sent in the title Straight form the Seed, I (being young) thought it was a great name and could never figure out why the staff just glared at me (in group of course).
Jupiter
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on January 16, 2006, 07:38:00 PM
It was `76

They used to burn witches. Today we laugh at them. Today we jail people for marijuana. Tomorrow they'll laugh at us.

--Robert "Rosie" Rowbotham

Title: More Trivia
Post by: CherylL on January 23, 2006, 08:16:00 PM
Wow! I was a seedling from way back (+ 30 years ago) and I just was thinking of the "old days" recently.  I went to the Seed on (Friday) April 13th 1973 when I was 14 while I was a freshman at Cooper City High School and the Seed was on State Road 84.

Aside from hating the long, boring days - the only real lasting side effects I still have is my absolute refusal to eat either Peanut Butter & Jelly sandwiches or Bologna & Cheese sandwiches!!!  I still don't like Lemon Joy dishwashing soap as that is what I had to wash the dishes with at my oldcomer's house before I got to go home.  The funny thing is that once I broke away from the Seed, I spent my Junior & Senior years pretty much stoned all the time!  

The thing that stands out the most is when I was an oldtimer, they called a load of us back to sing (America the Beautiful?) at a Dolphin's halftime show at the Orange Bowl.  We had to practice running back & forth between the front of the property on 84 to the fenced in area - how no one got hurt I'll never know because I do remember one girl fell and by the grace of God, everyone was able to jump over her.  

You know the what finally got me away from drugs and being a habitual "druggie" was when I was in my early 20's and my then boyfriend got busted with a ton of 'ludes.  I was not at his house that night so I wasn't arrested as well, but that was close enough for me!  I wouldn't even go near dope for years until I found coke...

Now, all those 'bad' habits are just memories with (Thank God) no police record to remind me.

If any of the CCHS seedling from that time period remember me, please e-mail me.

See ya!!!

 :grin:
Title: More Trivia
Post by: GregFL on January 23, 2006, 11:03:00 PM
hey, it seems we are about the same age even tho I was in the St Pete Seed.  What high school did you end up at?  I moved down to lauderdale and went to Boyd anderson...
Title: More Trivia
Post by: CherylL on January 24, 2006, 07:03:00 PM
I went to Cooper City - we had a load of Seed kids when I was going through the program.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on May 15, 2006, 03:35:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-06-12 22:42:00, Anonymous wrote:

"The clown on The Skipper Chuck Show was "HoHo the Clown". Sadly he took his own life (no joke)"


The clown was named Scrubby. I don;t know about the suicide part.
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on May 15, 2006, 03:40:00 PM
In Miami, the Seed was housed in an old race track complex....I vaguely remember my friend's brother went there. Maybe 1973 or so. Everyone in my junior high who went there got shirts from Dadeland Mall at the t-shirt kiosk and had "The Seed Loves You" embossed on the back...and just about every Stop Sign in my neighborhood had "The Seed" spray painted under the word Stop.

One other thing, I knoew several people who went there in my junior high (South Miami Junior High) and they all went on to become unrepentant drug users in high school and college.

Just curious if The Seed actually helped anyone???
Title: More Trivia
Post by: Antigen on May 15, 2006, 06:39:00 PM
I was in Pompano when my older brothers and sister went in. I remember Seed tshirts w/ the logo on the front. But no one ever went to the trouble of painting up the stop signs. Always wondered what the difference was, why Miami ran them out of town so quick. What else do you remember?

As for whether or not it helped anyone, I honestly don't think so. But some people swear by it, including my older brothers and sister.

But this is far from demonstrating that the authorities must interpose to suppress these vices by commercial prohibitions, nor is it by any means evident that such intervention on the part of the government is really capable of suppressing them or that, even if this end could be attained, it might not therewith open up a Pandora's box of other dangers, no less mischievous than alcoholism and morphinism.
Ludwig Von Mises

Title: More Trivia
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on May 16, 2006, 10:11:00 AM
[ This Message was edited by: Ft. Lauderdale on 2006-05-16 07:12 ]
Title: More Trivia
Post by: GregFL on May 16, 2006, 10:12:00 AM
I am pretty sure in St. Pete the Seed sold the Seed T-shirts

$5 bucks a mustard "tree" shirt rings a bell.  Too bad they didn't represent that mustard seed right on the shirt, and draw a scrawny little bush and some southerners making Mustard greens out of the bush with a ham hock and some crystal's hot sauce.

 :grin:  :grin:
Title: Re: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on August 04, 2009, 07:51:00 AM
Quote from: "blue morphine"
no not the same guy anonymous.. this guy was strictly a local wtvj channel 4 miami local yokal. was taped in miami at 7:00 am on week days..his real name is(was chuck zink..) and was he pissed when the seed got run out of town.. he called everybody responsible a bunch of jerks etc. etc. i was really surprised that they did broadcast the show that day.. sure raised some eyebrows..






 blue

[ This Message was edited by: blue morphine on 2002-09-24 14:50 ]
                    I believe Libby was on skipper chuck herself promoting that place, can someone look into that??? curious too.
Title: Re: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on August 04, 2009, 07:59:37 AM
Quote from: "Antigen"
Quote
On 2002-09-24 02:37:00, blue morphine wrote:
 i`ll never forget in miami there was a childrens program on television called "skipper chuck". well the day or the week that the seed was run out of town mr. skipper chuck(his real name was chuck zink) came on the program (now mind you this was a childrens show with popeye cartoons etc.)  he came on, and on live tv or 1 day tape delay i guess and ridiculed everybody who was responsible for running the seed out of town.. it was something to see and hear thats for sure. im guessing it was around 73 or later..

 anybody remember this??



 blue

Holy sheep shit, Batman! Yeah, I remember Skipper Chuck! I wateched him every day when I was a little kid. But I don't remember that broadcast. Unbelievable!

Know what he's doing these days? He's doing ads for Century Village, a mamoth retirement community and AARP stronghold with locations in Deerfield Beach and Miami.
--------Yep he sure does do those ads for century village, crazy shit if all keep digging, hi Antigen, I really thought I was crazy at times, but I see all know things , and this is a good thing.  :peace:
Title: Re: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on August 04, 2009, 11:30:44 AM
I believe  that they appeared on captain kangeroo as well, pretty sad to go on a child's show, goes to show you how much they wanted to control everything, in fact this government now is putting camps up all over the place for there new world order, anyone have anything to say about the new world order???? I think that that is some pretty scary shit too. How did they get away with being on a child's show back then??? Was part of the scam, I bet it was because  who ever the guy was that was captain kangeroo his  daughter or who ever she was on there was put maybe in the seed or here's help one of those  places. Either way I hope it was bad publicity and the public should have if they did not complain about bringing that into a kids show.
Title: Re: More Trivia
Post by: Anonymous on August 04, 2009, 01:27:39 PM
Quote from: "Thom"
I grew up in Pompano, but remember (vaguely) going to concerts at Pirates World. Grand Funk and Blood Rock is one that pops to mind.
           I loved pirates world>>>>> sigh.....