On 2002-09-24 02:37:00, blue morphine wrote:
i`ll never forget in miami there was a childrens program on television called "skipper chuck". well the day or the week that the seed was run out of town mr. skipper chuck(his real name was chuck zink) came on the program (now mind you this was a childrens show with popeye cartoons etc.) he came on, and on live tv or 1 day tape delay i guess and ridiculed everybody who was responsible for running the seed out of town.. it was something to see and hear thats for sure. im guessing it was around 73 or later..
anybody remember this??
blue
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
"Isn't your pants' zipper supposed to be in the front?"
--Hobbs to Calvin
Real criminals walk free every day to rape, rob, and murder again because the courts are so busy finding consensual criminals guilty of hurting no one but themselves.... To free cells for consensual criminals, real criminals are put on the street every day.
Peter McWilliams
On 2004-02-07 05:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Clarabell? Wasn't she on Howdee Dudee or something! I grew up in Miami - no Clarabell on the Skipper Chuck Show. People on this site confuse alot of things & tie alot of things together that I believe don't belong together- just my opinion- :silly: "
On 2004-06-12 23:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"How about a link to brainwashing techniques from :question: Red China? nothing there? :question: "
If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race?
--Frederic Bastiat -- 1801-1850
On 2004-08-30 08:37:00, Jimmy Cusick wrote:
We sing jingle bells, cause everyday were straight its like christmas
...the people have a right to keep and bear arms.
-- Patrick Henry and George Mason Debates
In order to live free and happily you must sacrifice boredom. It is not always an easy sacrifice.
-- Richard Bach
On 2005-01-25 15:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Yep - remember the name but not much else about the show. The one I can recall the best was the Jumpin' Jack 4 o'clock show that was on for a few years when I was older..."
Everything that people say to you is personal. Whether it is constructive criticism or not will determine whether it cam from and asshole or not.
----Bill Warbis
Errors, like straws, upon the surface flow;
He who would search for perls must dive below.
Prolougue (from preface to
the Panther Book)
John Dryden, All for Love, Prolougue
You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war.
--Albert Einstein
On 2005-02-20 02:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I heard the Tom Mc passed away some years ago"
On 2005-02-20 18:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I heard that he passed away from Aids. "
On 2005-03-03 11:04:00, Thom wrote:
Fran, I do have a Penny in my brain too.
Hear me people: We now have to deal with another race - small and feeble when our fathers first met them, but now great and overbearing. Strangely enough they have a mind to till the soil and the love of possessions is a disease with them. These people have made many rules which the rich may break but the poor may not. They take their tithes from the poor and weak to support the rich and those who rule.
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
On 2005-03-03 19:15:00, Antigen wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-03-03 11:04:00, Thom wrote:
Fran, I do have a Penny in my brain too.
Forgive, O Lord, my little joke on Thee and I'll forgive Thy great big one on me.
--Robert Frost, American poet
On 2005-03-04 09:24:00, Thom wrote:
Hey, look what your nephew, John is up to!
http://www.whirledbeet.com/main.htm (http://www.whirledbeet.com/main.htm)
"
From the bottom of any large organization looking up through the ranks, human greed and stupidity look a lot like a conspiracy.
--S. Gilbert
First management had plans and then strategic plans. Now we have vision, and we're only one small step from hallucination.
-- Ansley Throckmorton upon assuming the presidency of Bangor Theological Seminary in Bangor, Main per Information World 8-4-`97
Legalizing drugs would simultaneously reduce the amount of crime and raise the quality of law enforcement. Can you conceive of any other measure that would accomplish so much to promote law and order?
--Economist Milton Friedman
Fear is the parent of cruelty, therefore it is no wonder if religion and cruelty have gone hand-in-hand.
--Bertrand Russell, British philosopher, educator, mathemetician, and social critic
Tough Love: Abuse of a type particularly enjoyable to the abuser, in that it combines the pleasures of sadism with those of self-righteousness. Commonly employed and widely admired in 12-step groups.
--Chaz Bufe
It's an incredible con job when you think of it, to believe something now in exchange for life after death. Even corporations with all their reward systems don't try to make it posthumous.
--Gloria Steinam, women's rights activist
I think I know where I got off track! I thought the 11th step said 'Sought through beer and medication to remove our conscious contact w/ God...I plead lysdexia![ This Message was edited by: Thom on 2005-03-08 14:33 ]
Next the statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception."
Mark Twain, The Mysterious Stranger, 1916, Ch.9
Totalitarianism is like a specter which drinks the blood of the living and so achieves reality, while the victims go on existing as a mass of living corpses.
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
I tried for years to live according to everyone else's morality.
I tried to live like everyone else, to be like everyone else.
I said the right things even when I felt and thought quite differently.
And the result is a catastrophe.
---Albert Camus
..or something like that.
On the lighter side, I caught a few minutes of the opening of an episode of "The Price is Right" yesterday, and I'm convinced that the concept of 'motivating' :exclaim: (the act of waving arms wildly, and screaming, jumping up and down, etc.) originated with BOB Barker and that program, NOT ART Barker, and The Seed.
On 2005-03-10 06:30:00, cleveland wrote:
"Gotta respond to Thom saying how singing Zippity Doo Dah allowed him to get in touch with his emotions. Cool - I can understand that. But I guess, while the Seed allowed me to challenge the 'group think' of being cool, and having a 'druggie attitude,' I wasn't truly free until I could also question the mindless loyalty to and acceptance of The Seed.
Today, I will sing or listen to whatever song I like - I will sing silly songs and listen to what the Seed called 'druggie music' too. I am free and will question everyone..."
On 2005-03-09 10:11:00, GregFL wrote:Sorry you got confused, Greg. I'll try to type more slowly ::spam::
"
Thom said...."My emotional, spiritual, and in many respects, mental development were essentially shut down when I joined the ranks of the drug using/authority-hating cult(ure)."
-------------------------------------
Thom, help me here because I am confused. I thought you were a 14 year old child without a drug problem when you went in the seed. Is this wrong? How then did joining the ranks of the non drug using/authoritarian yet authority hating cult(ure) of the seed help anything? You were a child Thom...picture your own son at 14 locked down, isolated, screamed at and forced to sing humiliating childish songs and then ostracised at school for being a part of a weird fringe group. Wish that on him?
And yes, the restriction of freedom along with the singing of child songs is a simple yet effective mind control technique used by cults the world thruout."
I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment, to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure.
--Clarence Darrow, American lawyer
On 2005-03-16 11:20:00, Antigen wrote:
"...You mean you took yourself down there or asked mom to take you? I really don't know how that happened and I really would like to. I don't know why, exactly, just that it's family history. "
In my view, a 14 year old child using illegal drugs to fit in, be cool, cope with life, mellow out, whatever, has a problem already. I was not an addict, but I saw the kind of trouble some kids who were more involved with drugs were getting into. Grades dropping, skipping school, stealing cars, escalating drug use, etc. I wanted to learn how I could avoid some of these pitfalls.
My Seed experience was obviously different. I was there to learn. Being involved with The Seed was the best part of my childhood. Should I be ashamed of that? I won't.
Must have been the latter, since I was not of driving age at the time. I chose to go to the Seed. I was not under any external threat or compulsion. I get the impression this was a bit unusual, but I guess it explains why I wasn't yelled at or locked in. I was not a flight risk.
"
On 2005-03-17 01:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Thank you for validating what I've always believed to be a great learning experience for me!!(THE SEED) Are you from the St Pete Seed?"
On 2005-03-17 06:44:00, cleveland wrote:I agree. :razz: What I saw was a post from myself that some others here could relate to, and they expressed their feelings about the post, and offered encouragement. I saw no compulsion or any other unhealthy thing in it. I personally have no agenda to sway anyone to my way of thinking. I just share my stuff, some agree, some psychoanalyze. We all have our ways of reacting to other's expressed thoughts, and as far as I'm concerned, that's OK. I am learning alot here, even from the 'Monster at the Side of the Group'
"Ugh, please. What's this compulsion to have everyone agree still?"
Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.
Andrew Tannenbaum
If you want a voluntary urine sample from me it'll have to be a taste test.
--Bumper Sticker
On 2005-03-18 07:49:00, Antigen wrote:
"Thom, that's more than a bit unusual. It's almost hard to believe.
"
On 2005-03-23 07:36:00, GregFL wrote:
"Sorry I haven't responded. I am in the middle of a family emergency. You guys are in my thoughts and I will be able to spend some time here hopefully next week. My only comment is that everyone here is indeed, or should be, on the same side. That is the side of exploring our experiences and learning from each other.
Take care all.
"
People everywhere enjoy believing things that they know are not true. It spares them the ordeal of thinking for themselves and taking responsibility for what they know.
BROOKS ATKINSON (1894-1984), Once Around The Sun, 1951.
On 2005-03-17 07:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
I also know from reading the posts that Greg hated every minute in the seed and has alot of pent up anger still from his time there and I respect that....but when someone comes along with wonderful carefree memories of love and peace from the seed....Greg comes down on them with Cult this and Cult that.
This forum should be a place that we can say what we want to without the shit hitting the fan and offending someone.
On 2005-06-17 06:52:00, GregFL wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-03-17 07:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
I also know from reading the posts that Greg hated every minute in the seed and has alot of pent up anger still from his time there and I respect that....but when someone comes along with wonderful carefree memories of love and peace from the seed....Greg comes down on them with Cult this and Cult that.
This forum should be a place that we can say what we want to without the shit hitting the fan and offending someone.
Anon, you are just wrong about your perceptions. While I did resent being put in the seed, there was a period of time while I was there that I bought into the whole seedling thing. That passed quickly once I graduated.
That being said, I am proud of the way the people in this forum have kind of become a community of people, not divided along pro-seed or anti-seed sentiments.
No gods, no masters.
--margaret Sanger
To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical.
Thomas Jefferson
On 2005-08-11 21:59:00, rod wrote:
"
Cathy,
If you are still living in the same neighbourhood as Enie Peterman please tell her that Rod said hello and that I hope her and her family are doing well.We knew each other at Bogie.She entered the Seed a few months before I did"
Must have been the latter, since I was not of driving age at the time. I chose to go to the Seed. I was not under any external threat or compulsion. I get the impression this was a bit unusual, but I guess it explains why I wasn't yelled at or locked in. I was not a flight risk.
"
History does not record anywhere or at any time a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unkonwn without help. But, like dandruff, most people do have a religion and spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable pleasure from fiddling with it.
--Robert A. Heinlen, American science-ficiton author
History does not record anywhere or at any time a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unkonwn without help. But, like dandruff, most people do have a religion and spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable pleasure from fiddling with it.
--Robert A. Heinlen, American science-ficiton author
In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a trade unionist. Then they came for Catholics, and I didn?t speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."
--Protestant minister Martin Neimoller
Either cocaine and marijuana are terribly dangerous substances, and breaking the law by consuming them is a major offense that should be severely punished, or these are minor, personal matters that do not really count in the big picture of a man's life. If the latter is the case, then the rationale for a bloody, costly and futile war against drugs simply disappears.
--Jorge G. Castaneda, Newsweek International, September 6, 1999
On 2005-08-12 08:55:00, Thom wrote:
"Quote
History does not record anywhere or at any time a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unkonwn without help. But, like dandruff, most people do have a religion and spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable pleasure from fiddling with it.
--Robert A. Heinlen, American science-ficiton author
"
Talk about it and let the truth find its own way.
Some Joker
On 2005-08-13 17:31:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
BTW harry potter has outsold the bible now
Were the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now. Thus in France the emetic was once forbidden as a medicine, and the potato as an article of food. Government is just as infallible,[sic] too, when it fixes systems in physics. Galileo was sent to the Inquisition for affirming that the earth was a sphere.... It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.
Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia
BTW harry potter has outsold the bible now
On 2005-02-18 07:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"She's talkin "Century Village" 55 and over adult living condos. Chuck zink I think did a movie that Art Barker was in also. Some of the Seed kids went on "Skipper Chuck Show" for a short time way back then."
On 2005-03-04 20:44:00, korne wrote:
"I remember Zappa, Black Sabbath, Tull at Pirates world. Also remember several local guys that were very good at guitar. HH guys who played at great local parties. I often wonder how I survived with so many drugs. But, I have survived well!Legalizing drugs would simultaneously reduce the amount of crime and raise the quality of law enforcement. Can you conceive of any other measure that would accomplish so much to promote law and order?"
--Economist Milton Friedman
On 2005-03-02 04:47:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
"Does anyone remember Dina singing "Lost and lonely
Children" or Penny singing "People" or Tommy M. singing "People Get Ready"& playing his guitar. :smile: or also Penny singing "Summertime". Everytime I hear those songs today I think of them. Nice memories for me. OK the Dina song she made up- but it was appropiate for how I personally felt at the time.
[ This Message was edited by: Ft. Lauderdale on 2005-03-02 04:48 ]"
On 2005-03-03 14:11:00, TRUCKER wrote:
"Thats right.Black lady ,round face,big smile and short hair and love to sing and knew she could.One of her favorit songs was the "impossiable dream". Does any one remember talent night around xmas when the staff sang "Heard it thru the grape vine"
TRUCKER"
On 2005-03-09 04:47:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
"OK here we go again. Singing those songs was to let certain emotions out that we were too cool to do. Hey it helped me. I don't go around singing them today.(maybe I think I am too cool now)
:silly: "
On 2005-03-10 11:49:00, GregFL wrote:
"There is some dissention on this board and even a thread of incredulty when it is mentioned that the seed used cultic methods.
Here is an account with my comments in parenthesis of how someone used to be recruited into the moonies back in the seventies. It may have changed or maybe not...
________
Generally, the recruit meets organizational officials over a quiet dinner. Moon is not mentioned, religion is seldom broached. While you eat, you listen to their lectures and prayers and share in their singing, the recruiters constantly smile throughout the encounter. The youth is asked to attend a three-day workshop. (this is the common deceptive recruiting technique, in the seed it was done at the 'intake' and after wearing you down it was suggested to you to "just sign yourself in for three days and then you can leave if you want).
The first recognition individuals have when arriving for the three day workshops, is that the followers of Moon regard each other as a family....(no comment necessary)
The recruit is not left alone.(right!) As the neighbors of the Moonie encampment in Pope Valley have attested to, they walk in pairs.(YES!) ... It becomes immediately apparent to you that you are not to be left alone and that all 'spiritual children'(or in our case, Seedlings) have someone of their opposite sex(for seedlings, same sex) from the family assigned to them. If you should wander off by yourself, someone will follow you and politely ask you to rejoin the group.(or as the case with the seed, tackle you to the ground and drag you back to the group) You are even escorted to the rest room." (same!)The book continues, "You also learn that there is a rigidly held schedule. There are specific times for eating, exercising, playing, singing, listening to lectures and discussing them.(and no, absolutely no, exceptions to the schedule) You are separated into small groups, led by a team leader who has to have perfect control, not approximate control.(yep!) From the beginning, the leader directs his or her group like a kindergarten teacher, telling you when to do this or that."(and how to talk, what to say and when and how to say it under the threat of punishment).
If the leaders of the group should slacken in their enthusiasm or diligence, they are sternly reprimanded.(in the seed, started over or demoted to junior staff) The recruit is rarely permitted to engage in any casual conversation with anyone.(in the seed, never) They are only allowed to speak about spiritual things(or in our case, seed approved things when called on) within a structured framework. Creativity is frowned upon, conformity is stressed.(and required) "All day you are bombarded by ideas and concepts," (12 hour per day structured groups) states The Puppet Master.(this was a book written on the moonies) "There is little relaxation, and so your resistance is low.(no relaxation at all at the seed). When you refrain from sharing or resist in any way, you are met with benevolent concern.(in the seed, confrontation) Peer approval is an important technique which subtly tells you to conform. The family members aim directly at your most vulnerable points: the need to belong, to feel useful and to feel love.(same as the seed) Throughout the workshop you are flooded with affection, hugs, pats, hand-holding and smiles."(same as the seed, but usually only when you were in compliance)
Recruits react to the regimental control by trying to please.(as a coping method, same in the seed) "But, you quickly learn that the only way to please is to conform,"(completely and absolutely) The Puppet Master states. "You succumb many times to small acts of conformity without realizing it.(yes!) You feel guilty when you hold back, and you are told that wanting to be alone is a symptom of fear and alienation." (being alone is never an option in the seed)It is at this point that the recruit is asked to join the movement.(in the seed, encouraged to 'work his program') The family member who has spent all the time with the specific recruit (oldcomer in the seed) will beg and plead for the recruit to stay.(and "get straight) There will even be tears along with promises. They will continue to implore until you decide to join," (get straight, and if they fail, the seed would assign someone else to work on you)The Puppet Master states.
After joining the Moonies, the recruit will be given about two weeks of adjustment. They call it "losing", a period when the recruit's desires become nothing. Recruits are allowed to return home for one visit (earn the right to speak to your parents at group), but they must be accompanied or tailed by a Moonie. After that one visit, the recruit's communication with his natural family is reduced to mainly correspondence, and that diminishes rapidly.(this is a difference in voluntary cults because the family in essense joins the seed cult with you. If they don't, your contact is severely limited or forbidden as mine was with my mother) "When you do step out into the world, it is a shock, a cultural shock," states The Puppet Master. "You are taught that everyone not in the movement is under the influence of Satan (or as with the seed..'unaware or druggies') and that you should mistrust them..... no doubt they are trying to take your mind away. You begin to fear the world and those in it. Thus you become dependent on the group for love and positive reinforcement. After alienation is complete, you are told that you can leave if you want."
After the "losing period" the regimentation becomes even more rigid. The recruit is required to adhere to even more demanding workshop schedules. They sleep five or six hours a day.(same in the seed, and studies show teenagers need much more sleep or they cannot function correctly) Their diet consists of starchy foods and low proteins.(early stages of the seed and when there for weekends) Often they fast for many days.(no fasting, but extremely limited proteins and liquids in early stages of the seed) The recruit must now fundraise and recruit others.(absolutely but recruiting was done thru parents in the seed) The recruit must sing and pray before meals, before classes, before work, before evening gatherings. Most songs are traditional or Korean hymns. Alcohol and drugs are forbidden.
:eek: "
On 2005-03-16 15:33:00, Thom wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-03-16 11:20:00, Antigen wrote:
"...You mean you took yourself down there or asked mom to take you? I really don't know how that happened and I really would like to. I don't know why, exactly, just that it's family history. "
Must have been the latter, since I was not of driving age at the time. I chose to go to the Seed. I was not under any external threat or compulsion. I get the impression this was a bit unusual, but I guess it explains why I wasn't yelled at or locked in. I was not a flight risk.
"
On 2005-06-17 06:52:00, GregFL wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-03-17 07:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
I also know from reading the posts that Greg hated every minute in the seed and has alot of pent up anger still from his time there and I respect that....but when someone comes along with wonderful carefree memories of love and peace from the seed....Greg comes down on them with Cult this and Cult that.
This forum should be a place that we can say what we want to without the shit hitting the fan and offending someone.
Man, somehow I missed this and never addressed it.
Anon, you are just wrong about your perceptions. While I did resent being put in the seed, there was a period of time while I was there that I bought into the whole seedling thing. That passed quickly once I graduated.
I am not angry at my seed experience. Hell, it was over 30 years ago. I moderate this forum for the sole purpose of discussion because I think for a lot of people it is important to confront what happened to them, and it is fun discussing issues with people with a common background.
Anon, this is a place where you can say whatever you want, but all forums, and this one included, have people that don't agree. Expect that on a forum. All I ask is we all respect each other and avoid personal attacks.
I do have strong opinions on this type of "treatment" for juveniles, but my opinion is just that, no more or less valid than yours or anyone else's here. I will continue to express my opinion when the mood moves me.
I wish you knew how hard I have worked to foster an environment of inclusion of everybody that went to the Seed on all sides of the issue and not just make this a soapbox for one side or the other. But that vision of the SDF requires participation and understanding of the goal of this website, and forums in general require tough skin sometimes because people openly express various opinions and even get testy with each other, and not everybody is able to carry on that type of conversation.
That being said, I am proud of the way the people in this forum have kind of become a community of people, not divided along pro-seed or anti-seed sentiments.
I hope you are also enjoying this forum and hope you participate often regardless of how you view your time spent in your childhood warehouse.
"
If quitting drugs means joining the war on terrorism, does this portend the fire bombing of Amsterdamn ?
--Felton Manifestation
On 2005-11-22 13:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I think I remember you landy. You were a cute little kid and a smart one to boot if my memory serves me right."
On 2005-11-22 13:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Blond Hair and alot of it I think..."
On 2005-11-22 13:47:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
"Yep that was on Andrews but Tommy M. was sr 84. But I think he may have been on 3rd ave as well.
Do you remember Bonny she was his sister in law. "
On 2005-11-22 13:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I think I remember you landy. You were a cute little kid and a smart one to boot if my memory serves me right."
On 2005-11-22 14:54:00, Antigen wrote:I can't state with cetainty the yacht story but I remembered it when I read it just now. My sister may have been on the boat I 'll ask her as soon as I can. I already left her a message that she needs to get over here. I hope she does as she would probably have more clarity because she was 4 years older than me. The yacht happened its the details I can't verify.
"I'm glad you came along too, landyh. I don't know anybody else but me who was involved at such a young age. Now, I never sat in on group, far less on those vaunted bar room stools (btw, they had those at Straight too... anyone else find that ironic?) But I was in on the endless clatches at Denny's after open meeing on SR 84 and a good bit of Programming in our home, around the diningroom table and whenever I tagged along w/ my brother and the New Crusty Nostrils.
I definitely remember the rush of having grown ups bow to my impressive "Awareness". Looking back, of course, I was such an obnoxious prig! But, what's done is done.
Also, I think you probably can answer some questions about the way things were before the ominous 1313 Andrews ave (well, 1315, actually... but the other way sounds better, uh?) There's a legend that the first group started out on Art's yacht tied up at the Playboy Mansion or some such. Any truth to that? Cause the way I remember Art's telling of it, he had started getting the building ready to open before the first Seedling ever arrived and found that his entire work crew were all druggies. So he sat them down and started feeding them beans or something along those lines. Which story is closer to the facts?If quitting drugs means joining the war on terrorism, does this portend the fire bombing of Amsterdamn ?
--Felton Manifestation
"
On 2005-11-22 14:54:00, Antigen wrote:
"I'm glad you came along too, landyh. I don't know anybody else but me who was involved at such a young age. Now, I never sat in on group, far less on those vaunted bar room stools (btw, they had those at Straight too... anyone else find that ironic?) But I was in on the endless clatches at Denny's after open meeing on SR 84 and a good bit of Programming in our home, around the diningroom table and whenever I tagged along w/ my brother and the New Crusty Nostrils.
I definitely remember the rush of having grown ups bow to my impressive "Awareness". Looking back, of course, I was such an obnoxious prig! But, what's done is done.
Also, I think you probably can answer some questions about the way things were before the ominous 1313 Andrews ave (well, 1315, actually... but the other way sounds better, uh?) There's a legend that the first group started out on Art's yacht tied up at the Playboy Mansion or some such. Any truth to that? Cause the way I remember Art's telling of it, he had started getting the building ready to open before the first Seedling ever arrived and found that his entire work crew were all druggies. So he sat them down and started feeding them beans or something along those lines. Which story is closer to the facts?If quitting drugs means joining the war on terrorism, does this portend the fire bombing of Amsterdamn ?
--Felton Manifestation
"
sunday school: A prison in which children do penance for the evil conscience of their parents.
--H. L. Mencken, American publisher
On 2005-11-22 19:31:00, Antigen wrote:
"Well, I was 5 or 6 when my brothers went in. Then I guess I was about 8 or 9 when my sister went and one brother returned. Meantime, the other brother married a staffer, Pam O (I seem to recall there were two Pam's) Why, you almost couldn't swing a cat around the Seed w/o hitting one of my kin square in the ass.
Then when I was 16, I landed up in Straight. John later told me that my parents had been trying to get me into the Seed for awhile and to get my sister started over because of a poor romantic choice.
So basically, even though I wasn't in group, it followed me around like a dark cloud. All the other kids knew, I wasn't really allowed to associate w/ non-seedlings. That left one friend, a boy 4 years younger than me by virtue of his brother having been a Seedling in good standing.
To put one toe over the line in any way, intentionally or not, was unthinkable, though I didn't have quite as much surveilance to worry about once my sister graduated highschool.sunday school: A prison in which children do penance for the evil conscience of their parents.
--H. L. Mencken, American publisher
Sounds like they were'nt going to give you a chance to need the seed. Islolated and guilty by association hell yea you might as well have used and joined just to have more friends. I'm sorry for your trouble. I see you have family here too. Kinda neet. I hope I can get my sister here. She drug me along the first time out of guilt and we were both kidnapped the second. I went home before her and I was so excited when she came home. She ran away that night at 16 and I didn't see her for a very long time by the time my dad found her she was emancipated. So I have some great memories too.
"
On 2005-11-22 19:53:00, landyh wrote:
hell yea you might as well have used and joined just to have more friends.
I'm sorry for your trouble.
I hope I can get my sister here. She drug me along the first time out of guilt and we were both kidnapped the second. I went home before her and I was so excited when she came home. She ran away that night at 16 and I didn't see her for a very long time by the time my dad found her she was emancipated. So I have some great memories too.
"
The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma.
--Abraham Lincoln, U.S. President
On 2005-11-22 20:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Landy can you describe how you came to be chosen to lead raps at such a young age? did it have to do wit u cute loks and r u still cute?"
On 2005-11-22 21:06:00, Antigen wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-11-22 19:53:00, landyh wrote:
hell yea you might as well have used and joined just to have more friends.
The thought did cross my mind.Quote
I'm sorry for your trouble.
Thanks.Quote
I hope I can get my sister here. She drug me along the first time out of guilt and we were both kidnapped the second. I went home before her and I was so excited when she came home. She ran away that night at 16 and I didn't see her for a very long time by the time my dad found her she was emancipated. So I have some great memories too.
"
Oh, that would be great. The more we can really understand how it all started, I think the easier it is to understand it all now.
Do you and your sister get along these days?The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma.
--Abraham Lincoln, U.S. President
_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82"
I like the references but the food thing at the very early Seed was a money thing the way I remember it. They had a kitchen right there in the main room. My second time at st rd 84 I thought the pb and j were still a cost issue. Not sure just the way I remember it."
On 2005-11-23 07:35:00, GregFL wrote:
"Welcome Landy!
I always suspected we would get one of you people that got admitted at 9 years old.
I am so interested in hearing more from you. I often wondered what the hell the parents of these youngsters were thinking.
"
On 2005-11-23 09:04:00, GregFL wrote:
"Your story so far is fascinating but not unusual. A kid experiences extreme trauma and rejection from his parent(s), lashes out in anger and all his problems are assumed to be the evil drug marijuana. A one size fits all lock down treatment model is prescribed, and it doesn't work. The kid spends his life thinking he deserved what he got and goes on to substance abuse issues later in life.
It sounds like what you needed were things the seed could never give you, a real family..protection from your abusers, and a method to deal with your problems that just didn't replace them with dogma.
I am glad you are here now, but not so glad you didn't get the help you really needed back then.
"
No, the truth of the matter may be hard to conceive, but the fact is that we were treated this way as a method to break our will.
"
In war, the stronger overcomes the weaker. In business, the stronger imparts strength to the weaker.
--Frederic Bastiat
On 2005-11-24 07:15:00, Antigen wrote:
"I've never found that druggie culture of conformity to exist. There's a school clique thing. If you think the straight edge jocks an cheerleaders are any less cruel than any other crowd you're trippin'. Not only are they about the meanest, but some of them revel in their ability to call down force of law on their rivals and enemies.
The pot heads I've knowd down through the years have all been pretty easy going about things like musical taste and fashion. So I just don't know where you guys found these controling, exclusive drug culture cells.In war, the stronger overcomes the weaker. In business, the stronger imparts strength to the weaker.
--Frederic Bastiat
"
On 2005-11-24 05:46:00, cleveland wrote::wink:
"landy, i am glad to hear about you here. i agree with you about the idealism of the seed, i am sure in the early days (tho that toilet seat bothers me bad). i guess i was there for the 'middle period', 7 years and the sense of idealism was there. it inspired me. on the other hand, the conformity to the 'seed way' was stifling, and that was the ultimate reason i left.
i kind of look at things as you do - culture of conformity in the drug world too, after all, the standards were set by a bunch of kids, not written down. i was drawn to the 'counterculture' when i was a kid, because of the idealism, love, back to the land, the music, pretty girls, thinking i could be myself. then i found it to ne just as harsh a world as any, worse in some ways because i expected more. i was brutally disappointed and so i embraced the seed.
i don't go to AA, i have family that does. i take all in moderation, that is key for me. a glass of wine, great, but that's me. if my child was huffing lacquer thinner, what would i do?
Ditto brother except for that moderation sh*t. Whats that all about? I sure wish I knew.
w"
Ditto brother except for that moderation sh*t. Whats that all about? I sure wish I knew.:wink:"
On 2005-11-24 08:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
Because I agree that the seed I went to the second time was not the seed I went to the first time. But even going there helped in the sense that it go me to the place that I could fit in with some of the more "normal" kids at school. Did some of them drink or smoke a little pot? Sure but on the whole they were half way decent kids with some principles for the most part.
It really puzzles me to see Marijuana connected with Narcotics - Dope and all that crap?it's a thousand times better than whiskey - it's an Assistant - a friend.
Louis Armstrong
On 2005-11-24 08:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
Some might say the seed just had me kidding myself in a different way. But they sent me inside myself for answers not outside so I don't think so. They didn't say we have the answers for you they said you have the answers inside of yourself if your willing to look there and look there hard. So now that I have wrapped my experience in pretty paper and tied it with a bow I have to say that my second time around wasn't quite right. They had given me the tools to see that, to recognize the rampant egotism of the newer staff, the forced and more coercive atmosphere. I am sure glad I went there the 1st time I wish you could have experienced it to. So I wouldn't have to type so much.
I was born a heretic. I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
--Susan B. Anthony, U.S. reformer and suffragist
On 2005-11-26 10:05:00, Antigen wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-11-24 08:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
Yeah, I think maybe to a degree. I think maybe there's a big difference between how people perceive the whole experience based on whether they really want and need help or not. For you? Telling the truth may have fit the Program; it was just what they wanted to hear. For me? I had to keep it all bottled up and carefully hidden. Was I depressed and careless? Oh yeah! Why? Because I was trying to impress druggiefriends who always treated me badly and stuff? :rofl:
Well, that's what I had to say. But it never had been true. I didn't HAVE any friends, damne it! Except the other jr Seedling, who was a boy 4 years younger than me. When I got to be about 12 or 13, I was embarrased to be seen w/ him, so I quit hanging out with even him. I was just starting to make a couple of real friends. It just happens that they sampled the pharmacopia. That was way on the periffery, nothing like a central issue. The reasons why we were starting to be friends were things like speaking up for me when the cheerleaders were especially cruel to me. Or the one classmate, student government officer, cheerleader and all, who risked her political currency by stating that I had been right and she wasn't going to rat me out for finally defending myself against another persistant bully in the locker room.
Real stuff. The real stuff that I needed. But I couldn't let my mother find out I had friends at all because... well, like any good DA can indict a ham sandwich, all teenagers were suspect. And we just don't want to go there, do we? Since my Bible teacher was my pastor and my science teacher, part time band instructor and tennis coach was my deacon and sunday school teacher, I couldn't have friends or it would get back to her.
THAT is why I was so fucking depressed! I don't know what would have happened in the early Seed if I had sat voluntarily on front row for three days then stood up and said "Know what? This isn't for me. I have no idea what you fucked up people are talking about." and walked away. In the 2nd generation Seed that I found myself in 10 years later, there would have been violence. So I had to lie and call it Honesty. Just like most of the rest of us did.
I can't imagine that, at your tender age and given the kind of trauma you'd been through, that the Program dogma didn't maybe unduely influence your thinking. But I don't think you're out to coerce anyone to agree with you or otherwise do any harm with it. So I really don't have a problem with it. I do have an interest, though. So just let me know if I come off as disrespectful or mean spirited. I'm really not. But I am fascinated w/ this whole story. See, I can't get family history out of my family. That's partly due to their Victorian roots on one side and raw acrimony on the other. But a big part of it is that I'm an apostate to Program culture while they're all either militant Stepcraft practitioners or they're humoring the others in the name of peace. In a big way, this IS my family history.I was born a heretic. I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
--Susan B. Anthony, U.S. reformer and suffragist
_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82"
If you want to get together in any exclusive situation and have people love you, fine- but to hang all this desperate sociology on the idea of The Cloud-Guy who has The Big Book, who knows if you've been bad or good- and CARES about any of it- to hang it all on that, folks, is the chimpanzee part of the brain working.
--Frank Zappa, American musician
On 2005-11-28 15:27:00, Antigen wrote:
"Don't cry for me Argentina....
Seriously, yeah, I'm over it. But still interested in getting the word out. See, the Seed wasn't the only Synanon based program for teens that Bobby DuPont bankrolled. There are dozens of them out there derived from the Seed/Straight line and some hundreds more grown out of the CEDU "therapeutic" boarding schools. TC has become the accepted model for treatment of any old thang that afflicts the parents of teenagers today. I think people need to understand what that means.
And no doubt in my mind at all that it all started with good intentions. But you know what they say about good intentions.If you want to get together in any exclusive situation and have people love you, fine- but to hang all this desperate sociology on the idea of The Cloud-Guy who has The Big Book, who knows if you've been bad or good- and CARES about any of it- to hang it all on that, folks, is the chimpanzee part of the brain working."
--Frank Zappa, American musician
It has ever been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues
--Abraham Lincoln
On 2005-11-29 18:13:00, NOT12NOW wrote:
"Dear lord, how old is she?"
On 2005-11-29 19:05:00, Antigen wrote:
"I know a little about Teen Challenge. A lot of it does sound an awful lot like a Seed/Straight type program. But it's a lot more God based. And they do take adults under court order. I know of a guy probably in his late 30's who just did a turn through there around a year or so ago. Dunno if he'll be willing to talk about it or not, but I'm trying.It has ever been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues
--Abraham Lincoln
"
Yes and I saw some of the changes so I do understand some of the strong feelings people have. Just out of curiosity does anybody here know if Teen Challenge is based on the same model that these other programs were? "
On 2005-12-03 13:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
Yes and I saw some of the changes so I do understand some of the strong feelings people have. Just out of curiosity does anybody here know if Teen Challenge is based on the same model that these other programs were? "
I called teen challenge several years ago and was told they have different locations that use different techniques, with some of the locations lock-down theraputic community based.
Ie: yes they use similar techniques in at least some of the treatment centers.
"
On 2006-01-05 07:39:00, Thom wrote:
"Sorry to hear about Skipper Chuck's passing. What was the cause of death? Too much zinc?"
A multitude of laws in a country is like a great number of physicians, a sign of weakness and malady.
--Voltaire, philosopher (1694-1778)
On 2006-01-05 21:06:00, Antigen wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-05 07:39:00, Thom wrote:
"Sorry to hear about Skipper Chuck's passing. What was the cause of death? Too much zinc?"
No, that was his girlfriend, Mrs. Finklestein"
Vain are the thousand creeds that move men's hearts, unutterably vain, worthless as wither'd weeds.
--Emily Bronte
On 2005-11-30 22:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
Has anybody here read "A Million Little Pieces" and "My friend Leornard" by James Frey? Great books on one mans recovery by the way. His description of his loss of Lili describes well the feelings I've been experiencing. I guess some good has come of it because I have started working on myself again and I needed to do that. Trust me on this."
The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by an endless series of hobgoblins; all of them imaginary.
H.L. Mencken, 1923
On 2006-01-05 21:26:00, Thom wrote:
"[ This Message was edited by: Thom on 2006-01-05 21:36 ]"
Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world.
-- Dave Barry
They used to burn witches. Today we laugh at them. Today we jail people for marijuana. Tomorrow they'll laugh at us.
--Robert "Rosie" Rowbotham
On 2004-06-12 22:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The clown on The Skipper Chuck Show was "HoHo the Clown". Sadly he took his own life (no joke)"
But this is far from demonstrating that the authorities must interpose to suppress these vices by commercial prohibitions, nor is it by any means evident that such intervention on the part of the government is really capable of suppressing them or that, even if this end could be attained, it might not therewith open up a Pandora's box of other dangers, no less mischievous than alcoholism and morphinism.
Ludwig Von Mises
no not the same guy anonymous.. this guy was strictly a local wtvj channel 4 miami local yokal. was taped in miami at 7:00 am on week days..his real name is(was chuck zink..) and was he pissed when the seed got run out of town.. he called everybody responsible a bunch of jerks etc. etc. i was really surprised that they did broadcast the show that day.. sure raised some eyebrows..I believe Libby was on skipper chuck herself promoting that place, can someone look into that??? curious too.
blue
[ This Message was edited by: blue morphine on 2002-09-24 14:50 ]
--------Yep he sure does do those ads for century village, crazy shit if all keep digging, hi Antigen, I really thought I was crazy at times, but I see all know things , and this is a good thing. :peace:QuoteOn 2002-09-24 02:37:00, blue morphine wrote:
i`ll never forget in miami there was a childrens program on television called "skipper chuck". well the day or the week that the seed was run out of town mr. skipper chuck(his real name was chuck zink) came on the program (now mind you this was a childrens show with popeye cartoons etc.) he came on, and on live tv or 1 day tape delay i guess and ridiculed everybody who was responsible for running the seed out of town.. it was something to see and hear thats for sure. im guessing it was around 73 or later..
anybody remember this??
blue
Holy sheep shit, Batman! Yeah, I remember Skipper Chuck! I wateched him every day when I was a little kid. But I don't remember that broadcast. Unbelievable!
Know what he's doing these days? He's doing ads for Century Village, a mamoth retirement community and AARP stronghold with locations in Deerfield Beach and Miami.
I grew up in Pompano, but remember (vaguely) going to concerts at Pirates World. Grand Funk and Blood Rock is one that pops to mind.I loved pirates world>>>>> sigh.....