Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Mission Mountain School => Topic started by: Anonymous on August 16, 2005, 01:26:00 AM
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hello everyone. ive been thinking about something thats been bothering me. anyone want to talk about the sexual compenent of mms? like donna's husband having sex with one of the students? i know a young staff guy, forgot his name, he seemed gay, came on to a girl, i forgot. i think he was fired
does anyone know if our parent knew about these things? especially about the girls who actually were taken advantage. there was another girl who this happened to, anyone want to talk about this. just looking back i realize that that wasn't right and that i guess in some ways it just was a weird thing that we knew it happened but nothing was really talked about and it was swept under the rug
i also want to find out what people think about the sexual histories we had to do.
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First!!! PLEASE!!! PLEASE.....research your accusations..
Donnas Husband NEVER!!! NEVER had sex with one of the students. AND, AND, If you are to be bold enough to make a statement like that PLEASE, be bold enough to leave your name.
I do remember a weird thing that happened and one of the students weren't able to talk about it, no one I believe even ever found out what happened AND the student was at the reunion.
This site is getting WAY, WAY OUT OF HAND. Every one talks about regulation...what about regulation for this site....good lord.............makes me sick!!!!!
Betsy
:flame:
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And how dare YOU insist that the ANON must be BOLD ENOUGH to share her name to discuss sexual abuse that may have happened to CHILDREN!
That is exactly how this type of thing remains buried and swept under the rug, and how it remains a "dark little secret," through intimidation and daring someone to expose themselves by stepping forward and stating their name!
NOW that makes ME SICK!
How about some open discussion about the situation? Victims DO HAVE THE RIGHT to not reveal their names.
And this bullshit about little girls revealing their "sexual history" to some creepy man who is not a licensed therapist is just that: CREEPY!
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john is far from a CREEPY MAN. you obviously do not know him. he is a wonderful man, who is warm and caring and smart, with two beautiful daughters and a wonderful wife. his lifes dream is to help children who have gone down the wrong path. anyway, he doesn't even do group anymore.... his LISCENSED STAFF does.
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Strange--no names mentioned and you knew EXACTLY WHO the "creepy man" was---JOHN!!!
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John may not conduct therapy any more--but that does not undo the damage he did before!
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no? it wasn't donna's husband? youpas then, right? that's why i ask becus my memory is really bad. but i though d's husband had slept with m.
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just because he doesnt run group now doesnt mean he didnt before. and may in the future or has he realized his sadism is best reserved for his peers, not young girls.
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On 2005-08-15 22:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
I do remember a weird thing that happened and one of the students weren't able to talk about it, no one I believe even ever found out what happened AND the student was at the reunion. "
i have a friend who still speaks with her father, her molestor. i give this analogy because even if 'boundries were crossed' and people presently feel ok about ((though thats an assumption i would wonder about anyway), it doesn't mean that sex among staff and students is ok, espicially because there was no debriefing and, i dont think, parents were ever told... i know the other kids weren't privy to the dysfunction. seems a bit irresponsible to me...
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I never said that sex with staff is okay....but jesus christ get your facts straight.
Her mom was told about it and like i said she obviously...unlike any of you has dealt with her issues enough to return for the reunion.
"And how dare YOU insist that the ANON must be BOLD ENOUGH to share her name to discuss sexual abuse that may have happened to CHILDREN!
That is exactly how this type of thing remains buried and swept under the rug, and how it remains a "dark little secret," through intimidation and daring someone to expose themselves by stepping forward and stating their name!"
And if you read it correctly, the person making the accusations...wasn't the one who supposbly had sex with a teacher...she was repeating what she heard!!!!!!
Everyone is licened now at MMS and even furthing their education....
Start to deal and heal with your own issues and than come back to this WHOLE issue of MMS and see how you feel then.
Quit picking it apart and focusing only on specific topics...look at it generally as an over all experience.....
Betsy
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i believe gary was 'licensed', it didn't stop things from getting WAY out of hand- esp b/c everyone knows John calls the shots. come on now. MMS is his baby.
we absolutely need regulation for these reasons. They should be oligated to have to report abuse that happens within the facility to the proper authorities and fined if they do not. its bullshit that they created a comittee to self-regulate in MT.
btw betsy, i don't think anyone is saying any of these things are fact- you keep telling people to get their fact straights- that's what the forum is for, no? i see it as more like people are seeking out info and attempting to open up dialogue.
Also, i need to comment on a point you made that insunuated that girls who attended an MMS reunion are somehow more forthcoming about their issues, 'healthier' if you will. I have to say, respectfully, that's the most absurd thing i've ever heard. how on earth does that determination make sense? Especially if girls felt MMS was harmful to their health, wouldn't it seem quite the opposite of healthy to subject themselves to the same environment which they feel wronged them.
I'm afraid I would never feel comfortab;e reutrning to the school. I feel like a was a guinnea pig for a business/bad therapy experiment, ahem, innovation...lol some nightmare which i would rather seek to change not...have a reunion over.
[ This Message was edited by: katfish on 2005-08-16 09:31 ]
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also, i did hear about ray and al ( that was I think who was being referred to) and carl too, in passing. I think most of us are pretty fuzzy on the MMS front. i know the al thing for sure happened.
the rest i don't know about.
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Betsy you need a realty check: there is NO "overall experience." Specific topics is what it is ALL ABOUT! And each and every girl has their own specific "topic" that keeps them up at nights! And no topic is too small or too BIG to discuss. And they don't need anyone to discredit or demean them in the process.
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John Probably stopped those thrapy groups because he realized that people were investigating him...and now they can not catch him in the act.
and he has 2 little girls? Two little girls of his own to corrupt. I pray fro them.
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"Betsy you need a realty check: there is NO "overall experience." Specific topics is what it is ALL ABOUT! And each and every girl has their own specific "topic" that keeps them up at nights! And no topic is too small or too BIG to discuss. And they don't need anyone to discredit or demean them in the process."
Yes there is an overall experience. I don't look back at my life and childhood and even now...and pick out those situations i hated the most or were the worst. I don't define myself with those situations. I don't have mean, cruel feelings for my parents cause they spanked me to many time....etc.etc.
And now for some reason....lots of people encluding yourself anon...seem to want to define them selves by their experince at mms.
That is who they are, and reflection, so to speak of MMS.
I persoanlly would not like to come across your path or have to work iwth you in a job....its like a ticking time bomb. who knows what youd get upset at?
At work, do you like everything?? does everything go the way you want it?? School? they same....
But do we sit here and write back and forth about stiuations at work where people were rude or at shool where your teacher was mean?? NO we don't cuase its life....thats how it is....
Okay, so i now brace myself for your responses...im ready, im tough....
Betsy
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Yes there is an overall experience. I don't look back at my life and childhood and even now...and pick out those situations i hated the most or were the worst
betsy, lets be honest, everyone i know thought you were a really cruel person at mms and sounds like not much has changes. maybe u should examine your past because i can only imagine it has been a major conrubuting factor to how unempathetic, how ununderstanding and how 'bitchy' you can be now
I don't define myself with those situations. I don't have mean, cruel feelings for my parents cause they spanked me to many time....etc.etc.
And now for some reason....lots of people encluding yourself anon...seem to want to define them selves by their experince at mms.
how do you think this is the case? what are u talking about. no one is that one demensional, i dont care how obsessed a person is on a topic. i think if anyone definines themselves by their experience of mms its u simple because u are so narrow in your view of the school and adamentyl opposed to seeing from other side. others seem at least willing to concede to the possibility that mms is helpful to some girls and all the while admit that it was not the case for them
I persoanlly would not like to come across your path or have to work iwth you in a job....its like a ticking time bomb. who knows what youd get upset at? At work, do you like everything?? does everything go the way you want it?? School? they same....But do we sit here and write back and forth about stiuations at work where people were rude or at shool where your teacher was mean?? NO we don't cuase its life....thats how it is....
this doesn't even make any sense, it's comparing apples and oranges. besty, take logic 101 before u speak because every analogy u make is ABSURD! shit, sure, bad things happen in life, that doesnt make it right, and certainly doesn't mean that you should lay down and take it. Sometimes in life, of course, you just need to count your loses and think strategically- power and the leverage u have (or dont'have) can't be ignored, but it all needs to be considered in terms of proportionality. Certain things are just so wrong that they can't be ignored. You need to pick your battles wisely. I would say that this, of all battles, is a pretty good one to pick. And yes, maybe certain instances at work or in school, if they are rude, are worth addressing. You do understand, of course, that the main problem with MMS was likely not exactly that a few of the staff were simple rude every once in a while, right. Maybe you are not getting it because you seem to be missing the whole point- evn though its hard to see how because its been broken down for u like a ZILLION times into tiny bite sizes peices for u to understand. I wonder if there is not some other problem that makes it impossible 4 u to understand ?
And, christ, ticking time bombs happen when people DONT speak up and sit on their grievances until one day they explode, NOT when they are open about and able to vent.
I mean, damn, exactly what has to go wrong in someones life, according to you, that would make it ok to address it? and when does addressing , according to you, turn into a thing that defines a person and how does that turn into, in your mind, the single defining thing in a persons life?
As I see it, we ARE our past. Have you read 100 years of solitude?? Without our memory and past we have NO IDENTITY!
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DAMN.....ATTITUIDE!!! Hate to post on here anymore after this one anon....
Everyone has there opinions. Go back and check Betsy's post...she doesn't seem one sided to me.
At one point she seems confused, and says she is.
Calm down and don't take to so personally. If anything youre the one being 'bitchy'. She didn't attack you...so why attack her??? Isn't it okay we all have our own views??
I know her now and shes far from what she was at MMS. Like everyone, she has her bad days...........
seems you had a bad day...no???
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Why thank you Anon...appreciate the support.
"betsy, lets be honest, everyone i know thought you were a really cruel person at mms and sounds like not much has changes. maybe u should examine your past because i can only imagine it has been a major conrubuting factor to how unempathetic, how ununderstanding and how 'bitchy' you can be now"
HAHA!!! WOW, I find humor in your cruelness and a few names pop in my head of who this could be, seems you should take your own advice, anon.. because if you really knew me, you would know this is not the case. actually get told im one of the nicest people, others have met....see people change!.....
Plus don't take things so personal....just writing my opinion as you do, I don't take it to heart or as being mean....why do you???
"unempathetic, how ununderstanding"
Go back and read some of my past posts and then rewrite this statement....you might be suprised. .
"how do you think this is the case? what are u talking about. no one is that one demensional, i dont care how obsessed a person is on a topic. i think if anyone definines themselves by their experience of mms its u simple because u are so narrow in your view of the school and adamentyl opposed to seeing from other side. others seem at least willing to concede to the possibility that mms is helpful to some girls and all the while admit that it was not the case for them "
Are you new to this forum??? Did you just start reading it??? Take a deep breath, and go back and reread what i have written....
I do see it from both sides...im just more passionate about one side. You are passionate about saying the school was okay but overall really bad, Me, I take the side that, the school Great and yeah there were TIMES it was bad. REREAD
"this doesn't even make any sense, it's comparing apples and oranges. besty, take logic 101 before u speak because every analogy u make is ABSURD! shit, sure,"
See how funny things sound when they are taken out of context and anaylized???
I do find it interesting that you feel the need to talk to me in a belittling way,.....do you feel better now???
If you feel like talking down to me, and sounding so superior why not post your name??? Wouldn't that bring you the power your looking for?
If this is who i think it is, you were just as 'bitchy' as i was at MMS. I was just outright...you were more passive, but people were actually scared of you,...so sad,..........so sad. Seems not much has changed.
Betsy
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One more thing,;
"I mean, damn, exactly what has to go wrong in someones life, according to you, that would make it ok to address it?"
Go back and read the post of my past...living with my parents, yes and issue to be addressed. Being raped...yes, another issue to be addressed...
Betsy
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i've never read 100 years of solitude, but i agree that your past does make up who you are. I don't know if anyone here would say that their identity is only based on MMS experience.
I have seen and heard changes in Betsy, even if she doesn't agree, i think she has really accomplished a lot given what she has had to go through, so the personal attacks are, in themselves a low blow in my opinion. I have great deal of ampathy b/c i know what she has been through. I also think that (I hope b this does not offend you) Besty went to MMS at 13 (right?). can you imagine being at MMs at 13?? Can you imagine how hard that would be? And no one knows what she went through prior to that, but from what I understand it was pretty messed up and MMS was better. I guess, my point is, that I think that you, B, have so few things to really hold on to in your life. Maybe MMS gave you meaning in a way that someone like me, can't understand b/c not only did I feel MMS was harmful, but I didn't feel I could ever feel safe enough to actually deal with the actual reasons that brought me there. Maybe MMS gave you the words and that was helpful- as you pointed out. I too was given words, but they were empty b/c the lack of substance of my experience.
I actually do understand the points trying to be made though, becuase I too would like to understand why it is assumed that being critical of the school from the general to the specific and would like to better understand the meaning of what Betsy, you, have explained because I know that I, for one, feel that I am defined by so many other things, including, but not limited to, my MMS experience.
I would also like to understand why, Betsy, you say things like going to the reunion would make someone healthier. I don't understand why MMS defines the standard. To me they were the epitome of unhealthy. I guess, really I wonder how you find that the fear was at all a helpful thing.
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"I have seen and heard changes in Betsy, even if she doesn't agree, i think she has really accomplished a lot given what she has had to go through, so the personal attacks are, in themselves a low blow in my opinion. I have great deal of ampathy b/c i know what she has been through. I also think that (I hope b this does not offend you) Besty went to MMS at 13 (right?). can you imagine being at MMs at 13?? Can you imagine how hard that would be? And no one knows what she went through prior to that, but from what I understand it was pretty messed up and MMS was better. I guess, my point is, that I think that you, B, have so few things to really hold on to in your life. Maybe MMS gave you meaning in a way that someone like me, can't understand b/c not only did I feel MMS was harmful, but I didn't feel I could ever feel safe enough to actually deal with the actual reasons that brought me there. Maybe MMS gave you the words and that was helpful- as you pointed out. I too was given words, but they were empty b/c the lack of substance of my experience. "
Not offended at all, Thanks Kat...Apprecitate what you said and couldn't have said it better myself.
MMS was my life..I literally grew up there. 13-16
was the age group I was in at MMS.
"I would also like to understand why, Betsy, you say things like going to the reunion would make someone healthier. I don't understand why MMS defines the standard. To me they were the epitome of unhealthy. I guess, really I wonder how you find that the fear was at all a helpful thing."
I don't remember saying going to the reunion means someone is healthier or makes them healthier. After the whole sex with staff came up....I was pointing to the fact that one student who had this issue, dealt with it and even came to the reunion.
Thats all for that....
I guess the whole "fear" based stuff gave me something to get better at....
I excelled at MMS. I was in great shape and physically became better than i EVER have been.
My greads were A's & B's, when normal for me is C's and D's...
It wasn't the fear, it was the drive to do better and achive things i never have...
The strict standards and discipline were not only the stucture for my day to day it was my stucture for my myself, inside......
Does this make any sense??? Not sure how to explain it....Sorry, I tried.
Betsy
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hey, no, i think that makes sense. so, you are saying the structure and discipline you live with now was what you were given at MMS, in a way- especially in ways that were not offered at home?
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i don't know how personal you want to get here, but you've mentioned your parents were really strict, so mms was a relief to you? Because I think of MMS as strict, I was also wondering in what ways was it different than living at home?
And for gods sake, why were you at MMS for so long?
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On 2005-08-16 08:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I never said that sex with staff is okay....but jesus christ get your facts straight.
Her mom was told about it and like i said she obviously...unlike any of you has dealt with her issues enough to return for the reunion.
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i understood this to mean that she has, unlike 'any of you' dealth with her issues, or is healthier and up to MMS standard, enough to go to the reunion.
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"hey, no, i think that makes sense. so, you are saying the structure and discipline you live with now was what you were given at MMS, in a way- especially in ways that were not offered at home?"
Yes, exactly...you have a better way of explaining things than I do......hehe :lol:
"i don't know how personal you want to get here, but you've mentioned your parents were really strict, so mms was a relief to you? Because I think of MMS as strict, I was also wondering in what ways was it different than living at home?
And for gods sake, why were you at MMS for so long?"
At MMS...I was able to kinda "do my own thing" so to speak...
I was able to think for myself and even have my own opinions. I came to love the workcrew and the physical part of it.
At home my parents wouldn't even let me do physical stuff around the house to help out. I was a girl and needed to act like one. I had a role to fill and didn't fill it very well. (imagine coming from an enviornment when all i did was exercise and workcrew and even work out to one that didn't even me to run.)
Every time I wanted to go for a run...my mom always said "you don't need to run today".
I had to sneak around just to get a run in.
My curfew. Everyday....unless aproved I was to be home..cleaning my room or the house and if didn't I got bitched at. I was allowed to leave for work but only in the proper time to get there and had to back right away after work.
Same with school....3:30 I was to be home, at the latest.
Persoanl activities....not allowed unless parents met my friends or the "plans" were preapproved a month ahead of time. I played soccor after MMS and my parents didn't even come to 1 of my games, even after I asked them, time after time.
At one point i had one hour a night to be on the phone. They would listen to my calls at times.
I had a car that I paid for when my brothers were bought car, after car, as they crashed them.
Even though i had a car i was only allowed to use it for work and school other times I had to get rides or take the train.
My mom was really critical and rude to me MANY times and when I stood up for myself I was being rude and totally inappropriate and I was supposed to be nice to my mom.
My mom and I got in a fight last year......she told me I was
"gonna grown up fat, they had to pay for my high school diploma,cause I was to stupid to get it myself. I was gonna be old and only be able to get a 7$ an hour job cause I was to dumb to get into college.
She told me I should be trained like a dog cause even dogs get the idea of how to clean a toliet faster.
Than on top of that....told me she wished she never adopted me...cuase she doesn't want me".
thats just a little bit of what I had to deal with.
Betsy
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Betsy,
Why don't you register so you can receive private messages. There are those of us out here who care, but are unable to post on public forums without jeopardizing loved ones still in a program.
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K, im registered now....feel free to email me.
Betsy
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NOW im registered
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Good, please check your private messages.
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Hey B,
so sorry I have not replied- your post was painful to read for me, just made me sad and even angry b/c I think you got a raw deal.
I know I asked you this in PM, but maybe it's good to get out in open b/c I think your expereince may be similar to many other girls. You went to MMS at 13 and many of the problems you began to experience at home came after MMS, but I wonder what issues did you feel you were able to deal with at MMS that helped you later on? Did you ever figure out where all your anger came from and how to deal? Also, were their any problems at all that existed at home that were addressed? Anything at all that made your parents take a second look at what they were doing to you? I mean, honeslty, what kind of awful thing is that to say to your own child- what you wrote above. That's so cruel. My mom was not quite as harsh, although she certainly has sad some equally almost unforgivably cruel things to me and, while at MMS, non of it was really put forth on the table. I had to move out shortly after I moved in with her as a result.
Part of what I see about MMS is that often parents seem to make little changes- like you pointed out to me, MMS was for you not for your parents, but upon returning home, was it not the same old grind that made it difficult for you to succeed in that environment? Community based therapy emphasize parent/family involvment, and recognize the difficulty of implementing real change in a childs life if parents don't concede to make adjustments in their own lives...seems that could have been a far more effective way to create a support network, or at least address that lack of it...
kat[ This Message was edited by: katfish on 2005-08-29 14:39 ]
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wow, again i would like to say how unbeleivably out of control has gotten. i just went to the mms reunion, and i was the one who started all this. the reunion was a lot of fun, it was great to see all my friends, and just so everyone knows, they have chnaged everything about the school, that is why i went i wanted to see if had changed, and it has. everything about mms is different now, and that was my whole point in starting all this, i thought the way they were running it was not really woking and apparently they realzied that and changed it. there are now pahses there 1-4, when you gety there you are on phase 1 and then you do different assignments and stuff to get through the phases. on phase 2 you can have your own clothes and pictures and stuff form home, on phase 3 you get to start like venturing into town, and on phase 4 you get to like go to movies and dances and stuff in the community unsupervised to start to reintegate yourself into real life. they have an actual structure there now, one girl even had a nose ring. they were reading their own books, wearing normal clothes and seemed really happy. they had no reason to lie to us, staff weren't like supervising us talking to them, a lot of them really liked it there, and i oculd tell they were not bull shitting. so, i still think there was A LOT they could have done better in my time there, but now i really think they have a good program going and i will stand behind it 100%. (and no i was not brainwashed or anything, in fact i did not talk to john, colleen, or any staff) so in conclusion stop making accusations without the facts. now i know the facts and i feel really stupid for starting this.
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On 2005-09-01 20:11:00, kerryberry420 wrote:
"wow, again
and again and again and again.....
Do you always say everything half a dozen times? Please quit SPAMMING! Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar.
--Julius Caesar
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On 2005-09-01 20:32:00, Antigen wrote:
"
On 2005-09-01 20:11:00, kerryberry420 wrote:
"wow, again
and again and again and again.....
Do you always say everything half a dozen times? Please quit SPAMMING! Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar.
--Julius Caesar
"
Last time I checked stating an opinon or an experience was not spamming. I have seen other people on here complain about the same thing over and over again as well.
Melissa.
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i hope that what you are saying kerry is true- but regardless this is not true for all programs and I would wonder if the coercive element, such as forced labor, excessive exercize, students shadowing other students, outside communication heavily monitored, etc are not still firmly intact. I have spokes to student who have graduated as late as 2003 and seemed to describe similar feelings about the program as you, Kerry, once talked about.
If MMS is actually not harming any girls anymore, then great, (sarcastically) how thoughtful of John to adjust for the sake of vulnerable girls, however they should stop trying to oppose regulation then- children are intitled to the same rights as those in juvi (not that those are necessarily implemented)- but at least safegaurds are in place, theoretically. John's continuous funneling of money to lobby politicians and prevent regulation indicates to me he does not want to be held accountable, despite changes that you present as substantial and as those that would somehow legitimate the methods. Places may change, but, with all do respect, Kerry you were there for a day and while I would take your opinion into account, it would be minimal at best given that extreme limitation. I would like to hear from students there now. I know one girl who is there now was displaying the same regressive child-like behaviors that I found were induced while I was at MMS- I fear greatly that, given her display, it is still at it's core MMS with superficial changes. While I can appreciate the external freedom the kids are given, I question and doubt highly the internal freedom. IT was the internal coercion, fear-based, that makes me very uneasy. Furthermore, I am unsure how the level system is any more useful an indicator that a program is not damaging. There are plenty of programs that have been documented to have been abusive and use the level system... So, i guess I'm asking, Kerry, what point are you trying to make there?
kat
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incidentally, out of control in what way, kerry?
This was all bound to reach the surface as some point and it seems pretty subdued these days, that is- in no way 'out of control'
If you are refering to the progression from casual or heated chatting among alumni to the galvanizing of mental health professionals in dealing with this issue- well, I would think it's exciting to have mental health professionals willing to look at these schools, listen to kids speak and address the fallible nature of an unregulated industry- and attempt to study this issue- - I think it's going to be a fun topic to watch unfold, with a great deal of revelation.
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On 2005-09-01 20:11:00, kerryberry420 wrote:
everything about mms is different now, and that was my whole point in starting all this, i thought the way they were running it was not really woking and apparently they realzied that and changed it. so, i still think there was A LOT they could have done better in my time there, but now i really think they have a good program going and i will stand behind it 100%.
I just got to thinking about this and found myself feeling quite angry. I the MMS founders really wanted to take responsibility for the bad, and in some instances abusive (or, if that's too strong word for some- harmful) program MMS was, then why on earth haven't people who were harmed been contacted- perhaps an apology is in order. It appears, then, we were guinea pigs precisely b/c the techniques used are not widely accepted among mental health pros and implemented anyway, despite the lack of peer review and studies deemed necessary to legitimize certain methods. So, while I am awfully glad to here that it is possible there are safeguards in place, I am furious that no real accountability has been taken.
I am also equally furious that MMS opposes regulation that would serve to hold them accountable- cleary, if not now, at one point they needed to be and were not. As a result many of us suffered uneccesarily and did not receive the treatment we so desperately needed. Many of us, I, for instance, entered MMS entirely voluntarily (and suicidal) hoping to receive the treatment I knew I needed. The pysiological stressors proved to much for me and I left MMS a shell of my former self (what was present of my former self) and I, for one, would like some true responsibility be taken for that damage.
MMS preached accoutability, yet where why is it the institution itself, John, Colleen and Gary- even Mike and Deb, are unable or unwilling to own the damage they caused myself and many others. I am appalled and truely disgusted by them in this regard.
So Kerry, I appreciate the points you are trying to make, but I have no respect for John or any of the rest of them. I think they are cowardly in so many regards, namely this one. I think they have made their 'wealth' after damaging many girls needlsy because they presumed themselves professionals b/c the state of Montana doesn't require anyone that runs these school and advertises the way MMS does to have any degree. As we all know, Gary had some type of previous education, but we also all know that Gary did not determine the path of MMS and, despite being uncomfortable with the harsh treatment, he repeatedly allowed things to continue. As someone with some type of education I especially am disturbed by that point. Gary had an obligation, yet the way in which things were insitutionally sanctioned, there was a sense of acceptability in their use despite the outrageousness of the methods being accepted by the mental health community at large.
I am repulsed and disgusted by Mission Mountain School it's almost impossible to contain myself. Fortunately, this passion and drive has led me to find what may turn out to be, in part, my furture life's work- and, I suppose, in that respect, I am indeed grateful for MMS and find that whatever doesn't kill you can possibly make you stronger (after an initial period of 'weakness' through which I narrowly escaped.
kat[ This Message was edited by: katfish on 2005-09-03 06:34 ]
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how dare you say I am spamming, i started this dicussion and I have a right to say what I think, you antigen did not go to mission mountain, don't know anyone that went there except from this site and are just jumping on the lets fuck with mms bandwagon. in my opinion you are all making up lies and accusations that have little to no basis in reality, and hurting people in the process, you can't just accuse people of things they did not do, it affects peoples lives in really bad ways. antigen, chill out i know you are the person that owns this site, which for the most part seems just like a place to get mad at programs and talk shit about them, maybe you got sent to one i don't know but don't say things about people and places you don't even know about.
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And the point I am trying to make is that you guys were there years ago, when I was or even befrore, and like mroe than half of the people on this site were not even there at all, so before you guys keep going on about "abuse" and shit like that get your facts straight. yeah, it sucked get over it, we are adults. and antigen, stop pulling my posts off if i say the same thing on a few topics it is because i want people to read it, i bet if i was saying bad things about mms or on your side you wouldn't call it spamming.
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On 2005-09-11 10:28:00, kerryberry420 wrote:
"how dare you say I am spamming, i started this dicussion and I have a right to say what I think, you antigen did not go to mission mountain, don't know anyone that went there except from this site and are just jumping on the lets fuck with mms bandwagon. in my opinion you are all making up lies and accusations that have little to no basis in reality, and hurting people in the process, you can't just accuse people of things they did not do, it affects peoples lives in really bad ways. antigen, chill out i know you are the person that owns this site, which for the most part seems just like a place to get mad at programs and talk shit about them, maybe you got sent to one i don't know but don't say things about people and places you don't even know about."
So you're saying that everyone else who had a different experience from yours, even though you have no basis to draw any conclusion, is lying about it?
Why do you think so many people have spoken about similar abuses at MMS? What makes them less credible than you?
You clearly say that people were there before you were (meaning you were not there when they were), but yet you go on to completely discount their experience as if you were there and had evidence to the contrary. Is that just a little bit presumptuous? Can you see how statements like this can erode your own credibility?
How are you to be believed when you say these things never happened, but you're taking it on faith (you were not even there) and not observation? You certainly aren't lending credence to your own experience, as you may just be making that up as well, considering you are making up conclusions about other people's experiences.
Now, I'm not saying you ARE making up anything about your personal experience, I'm simply saying that your statements would take on more gravity if you were entirely honest, including saying "I wasn't there when you were, so I can't comment intelligently about your experience, but mine was like this..."
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Hey KerryBerry...all the new changes you spoke about...regarding the structure...phases, and what each phase is supposed to be about....sounds to me like they copied straight's model, almost to the tee (I was in straight)....So please, before you support these changes, please do your homework on what straight used to be, good and bad, and how other programs are have and are still using the same model....And check into how "happy" we supposedly were back then (they said I was "Happy"...that my dear was a very brainwashed programmed child...the PTSD and various disorders show up later)...If you do enough checking...you will see some alarming similarities. I see some just from your post. I wasnt in MMS so I cant comment specifically on it...and wont draw a conclusion.....but, your post about the changes (straight model) scares the shit out of me based on MY incarceration in straight. Check for yourself......
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http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... m=38#87373 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=8651&forum=38#87373)
What about this?
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you mean, this:
my name is kerry hambleton. i am 21 years old and am a student in Maryland. i was sent away 20 times from when i was 13 to 19 and have since been looking for a way to give back and educate people about the inner working of these treatment centers. i have been to lockdowns, rtc's, wilderness programs, rehab, and behavior modification boarding schools. i have been in expensive ones, coed, single sex, and more varities mission mountain was one of the many places i was sent to, however that is the one that stands out in my mind. first of all i want to tell you that the founder and headmaster (john mercer) does not in fact have a degree in psychology anything related to that, he majored in biology. in fact only a few of the staff there had any formal schooling in psychology the therapists did but the teachers, outdoor recreation coach, and daily living coordinator all ran groups too. now i will start at the beginning.
i was kicked out of school in tenth grade for basically just being an outcast. i had low self esteem, dressed "gothic" was promiscuous, drank at parties, and got in arguments with my parents. i do agree that i needed some kind of help and support to get me through that difficult time; i just don't think mission mountain was the right choice. my parents didn't know what to do with me so they contacted and educational consultant. she convinced my parents without help i was going to die, and then one night at 3am two strangers showed up in my bedroom and took me away. i was crying and screaming and asking where my family was and they wouldn't tell me. they took me to the airport in my pajamas and we got on a plane without me even knowing where we were headed we touched down somewhere in utah where i was then whisked away to second nature wilderness program. i still hadn't talked to my parents and didn't know what was happening and next thing i knew i was in the middle of the desert with a 50 lb pack on my back. (just for the record i really enjoyed second nature and got a lot out of it. the staff were really kind and supportive and helped me to regain lot of my confidence.) after being at second nature for 13 weeks i was told that i be leaving and going mms i didn't know anything about it except that it was in montana and they did lots of outdoor activities. which sounded fine to me, i love the outdoors. the first thing i noticed when i got there was that the campus was deserted. one of the teachers took me to a barn and outfitted me with my new mms clothes. sweatpants, hiking boots, t-shirt, fleece jacket, safety goggles, and work gloves. they took away my few belongings (clothes, pictures of my family, necklace, pictures of my very nice churchgoing boyfriend). i was crying and they yelled at me and handed me a backpack and took me out into the woods where the girls were on "intervention". a group punishment for the crime of "collusion" (girls having exclusive friendships and talking about their "old lives"). so immediately was already suffering for two girls mistakes. "intervention" consisted of waking up at dawn and clearing forest with hand tools and then carrying heavy debris to large piles to be burned. we would do this all day with a 3 minute bathroom break every three hours (the bathroom was an outhouse with five holes in it instead of one with no separation in between). we would work until it got dark and sometimes later (in the summer so it was pretty late) and then have to sit in a circle silently until john mercer showed up (he was always late, we would wait for hours without talking or getting up to pee). once he got there he would pick a few girls and yell at them all night. or we would all have to make lists containing all of our lies, transgressions, our "war stories", how we about the other girls, things we knew about other girls that they weren't telling, and then read them aloud and have everyone respond. he never believed that i hadn't done drugs and i got so tired of hearing him yell and getting in trouble for "lying" that i finally lied and said that i had. he accused one girl of being nazi and screamed at her until she was sobbing violently. i tried to stick up for her and tell him to stop but he wouldn't listen and made her tell her best friend she hated her for being asian. it made me sick. and i felt even worse that i couldn't do anything about it.she gave in eventually and said that she was, but she wasn't. anyway continuing about "intervention"....it went on for like 3 months. we weren't allowed to shower, write to our parents, or anything. when we finally got off of intervention i saw what mms was really like, not much different except we slept indoors. we lived in cabins, 8 girls to a cabin. we sometimes went to school in the morning on weekdays (on intervention we didn't go to school). usually though the staff would have us do work crew (chopping firewood, clearing forest, landscaping, maintenance, intense cleaning of buildings). or we would have to go work on the staffs houses. so we got little to no schooling. (i will say though when we actually did have classes our teachers did do their best to teach us and give us help if we needed it) and even when we did have class we wouldn't have any time for homework because of all the chores we had to do and sitting in group for hours on end. the other thing we had to do was outdoor recreation. it was like Gym class except outside and harder. i actually enjoy outdoor activities but this was too much. we would first have to run laps (run the whole time, no stopping, no slowing down) if you did stop or slow down, or cry, or throw up you would have to run more. if girls refused to run everyone else would have to run until they gave in and did it. if girls refused to do push ups everyone else would have to until they did. we had to get on mountain bikes and go on 12 miles rides up mountain without stopping. even if you fell off you kept going. i do see why they did this, to encourage perseverance and confidence, but i think they pushed too hard. as for daily life we woke up at 6am and went to breakfast. the dining room was set up in a large horseshoe shape and every girl had a "food partner" and "feelings journal". in the beginning of the meal we had to write our feelings about the food we were about to eat and again at the end. we all got the same food to eat and for condiments they had to measured out and checked by our partner to make sure we weren't cheating. we weren't allowed to talk at mealtimes except for a topic that one of the staff would give and we would all respond one by one. everyone had to finish all of their food and if someone didn't all the other girls would have to go outside and run laps backwards or shovel horse manure. some of the girls had eating disorders (i didn't) and we all got treated like we did. we weren't allowed to know our weight and we had to eat even if we were full. they made the vegetarians eat meat and forced them to run laps if they didn't. every cabin had chores to do both in the cabin and on the campus. like setting up for meals, cleaning various building, shoveling horse manure, vacuuming, making the bed, cleaning the bathroom, etc. all chores had to be done every day. if anything were wrong (a hair on the sink, dirt on the floor, manure in the fields, wrinkle in the bedsheets) the person or cabin responsible would be given a "callback", three callbacks meant you were on work crew on sunday instead of studying.
i don't want to make it seem all bad though. some of the staff there were really compassionate and caring and really wanted to help us. a lot of the outdoor activities helped me feel more confident and strong (unless i had to do them while i was sick or with a sprained ankle). i don't think mms was abusive in the traditional sense however I view so many of the things they did as wrong and hurtful. when my dad saw how we were treated there he pulled me out immediatly i just people to know what really happened there so other girls don't have to go through it and parents are informed of the real nature of the school. i wish i hadn't of taken my first post off because now you may question my credibility. but when colleen called me i felt like i did at mms was immediatly intimidated and lied about what i had written. i realize that that was wrong of me and have since e-mailed her telling that and i am now posting this again. i hope you still believe me. if anyone has any questions or comments you can e-mail me at [email protected]
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Nonconformistlaw,
I'm curious, in what ways do you see the similarities b/w striaght and MMS? From what I hear, Seed was the start of this entire industry, correct? And Straight modeled Seed, correct?
thanks for sharing,
kat
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Kerry,
where are you at with you past experiences as written? Much of what you wrote refelcts my own experience, so I'm just curious.
kat
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Well, thaks for sharing that. From what you have said, this is surely an abusive environment. Yes, there are good people who work at bad programs, but the fact remains that the program is, in fact, bad (and/or abusive).
The conditions and activities you describe should NEVER be inflicted on a child. It is at the very least unhelpful, and at the worst, outright abusive and possibly even illegal.
That being said, young people, like yourself, who have spent many years institutionalized (although under the guise of so-called "programs"), begin to view institutionalization as "normal," or in some cases what they "deserve."
This is a common psychological phenomenon. The mind attempts to normalize the situation as it cannot functionally survive under circumstances that create intense cognitive dissonance, as all of these "programs" are actually designed to induce.
I think that, given time, you will begin to understand how destructive these years of institutionalization have been to you and your psychological and emotional growth.
Let me ask you this: Would you allow your child to be subjected to these conditions? If your answer is "no," then how could it possibly be ok for it to have happened to you?
Just a few thoughts for you to ruminate upon...
In any case, I wish you all the best and hope your desires and dreams are realized, despite the handicaps imposed upon you.
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This has nothing to do about sex and staff. I just wanted to agree with whomever wrote about the damage john has done to the girls. yes john was and IS a creepy man and did a lot of harm to a select group of student, which I know from personal experience. He did have good intentions when he started out but I belive got tainted by the power he had over some of the girls vunerablility. He is a very egotistical man and caused a lot of damage to the girls mental states. Maybe he was trying to help, but he could of done it in differentley on many MANY occasions. I do belive that john is a good man and has a kind heart but he was very selective of which girls deserved it. To some he was a kind man who deeply cared about the girls but on the other hand to the girls with more problems than others instead of being compassionate he was EXTREMELY crule and heartless.
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Please check your private messages.
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OH MY GOODNESS!! YOU MUST BE HIS WIFE!! LOVE IS SAID TO BE BLIND! MOTHER OF A FORMER STUDENT
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the thing about select cruelty is that you always know (as teh 'special one') is that you can fall victim to that cruelty... so, while yes, I think most of us are capable of being assholes and also very loving--- John is very rigid and very egotistical, so much so that I think that it gets in the way of being a truly loving being and creates a power imbalance among those he loves. That's not love- that's something else...
He's a dick, period.
Hi Colleen! :wave:
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I would like more information with respect to the sexual contact between any adult males and minor females at Mission Mountain School.
Email [email protected] (http://mailto:[email protected])
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To Kerry
Thank you for writing that. It mirrors alot of my experiences at mms. I appreciate hearing your story because now I know that we were misstreated. Perhaps not textbook abuse, but I still get pretty emotional when I think about that place. Just glad I didn't have to stay long...
The other Kerry