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Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Teen Challenge => Topic started by: Karly on May 06, 2007, 08:01:49 PM

Title: A Few Websites To Read Other's Thoughts on Teen Challenge
Post by: Karly on May 06, 2007, 08:01:49 PM
To learn more about Teen Challenge, I highly recommend paying a visit to the following websites:

"Investigating Teen Challenge"- at http://http://teenchallengecult.blogspot.com/

"Investigating Teen Challenge" Web Forum at- http://http://wwf.fornits.com/viewforum.php?f=57, which is now proudly hosted on Fornits Home for Wayward Web Fora Forum (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/index.php), which covers many of the Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform facilities! (This is the website you're on right now! :D )

"Teen Challenge Exposed" at- http://http://www.teenchallengeexposed.com/

A very active thread about Teen Challenge at-  http://http://www.topix.net/forum/city/minneapolis-mn/TN94VATH520HE9UQM#lastPost

Another thread on Teen Challenge at- http://http://www.topix.net/forum/blogs/TEV4TDE8D9LDKTISS

A Thread at The Bismarck Tribune - http://http://www.bismarcktribune.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=33

Many more opinions about Teen Challenge can be found here-  http://http://www.badsamaritan.com/archives/2001/10/the_teen_challenge_lady.php

Returning to Sanity - http://http://www.exchristian.net/testimonies/2006/02/returning-to-sanity.html

NEW: A new thread about Teen Challenge called- 'Subsidized Religion in MA' at Aces Full of Links- http://http://www.drmomentum.com/aces/archives/002976.html

NEW: The Texas Faith-Based Initiative at Five Years: Warning Signs as President Bush Expands Texas-style Program at National Level-http://http://www.tfn.org/files/fck/TFN%20CC%20REPORT-FINAL.pdf

(Note: If you cannot open the above pdf file, you can download the "Foxit Reader", which is a free PDF document viewer and printer.  http://http://www.foxitsoftware.com/pdf/rd_intro.php)

NEW: To learn more about the the faith-based initiative, go to Americans United for Separation of Church and State website- "The 'Faith-Based' Initiative- Churches, Social Services & Your Tax Dollars" http://http://www.au.org/site/News2?abbr=resources&page=NewsArticle&id=9051&security=1441&news_iv_ctrl=2422

NEW: Charitable Choice, Faith-Based Partnerships, and the Public Funding Of Religion- http://http://www.atheists.org/public.square/charitablechoice.html

NEW: A STARK TRUTH FOR POLICY MAKERS: DATA LACKING TO SUPPORT CLAIMS OF FAITH-BASED SOCIAL PROGRAM SUCCESS-http://http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/faith14.htm

NEW: Faith Without Works-http://http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0410.sullivan.html

I am also posting the following web forum just in case someone feels it would suit them- , the Ex-Pentecostal Forum - http://http://p212.ezboard.com/bexpentecostalforums  

Note: You can read more about the Ex-Pentecostal Forum at the Association of Former Pentecostals - http://http://expentecostals.org/index.htm

ANOTHER OTHER GOOD READ:

JESUS ‘LOVE-BOMBS' YOU - By Chris Hedges. http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/jesus_love_bombs_you/ (http://http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/jesus_love_bombs_you/)
Title: A Few Websites To Read Other's Thoughts on Teen Challenge
Post by: Firebird81 on May 07, 2007, 10:18:36 AM
Yes please go to all of those. You will see a recurring theme. Almost every message board thread has been started by the guy who wrote the website teenchallengeexposed.com. You will see Karly and him on every one of those threads. You will also see various confused people who have been thru TC and successfully completed the program or have a relative who has. Wy are they confused? Because Karly and Michael are making such wild-eyed claims about an organization they know to be an effective one thru personal experience, something Karly does not have concerning Teen Challenge. You will also see Michael make the statement that he would rather live next door to Al Qaeda instead of a pentecostal.

Go to all of her links. You will find more than one that is just simply people against Christianity. and that is simply a case of difference in religious beliefs.

Please research beyond what Karly has tried to lay out before you. She has never been in Teen Challenge, has never seen their curriculum, does not know how the program is even structured or how it works. She couldn't tell you what the courses cover or what methods of counselling are used. The truth is she is someone who doesn't believe in residential drug treatment and tha tis what is driving her attacks against Teen Challenge.
Title: A Few Websites To Read Other's Thoughts on Teen Challenge
Post by: Antigen on May 07, 2007, 12:46:46 PM
Firebird, STFU you pompous ass! Do you have any idea how insulting you are? Don't worry, we can think for ourselves, thanks very much!

And here's a little history for ya. Not too long ago at all, nobody but program vets and cult members knew anything at all about Straight, Inc. Even though they'd been sued numerous times and were constantly under investigation. Hell Arnold Trebach even dedicated a chapter in his early `80's book, The Great Drug War to Fred Collins trip through the program. Even so, if you asked around in 1999, very, very few people knew anything about the Program. It was just Scott Wagner with his one AOL page, then me and Wes and Kathy with the forum on CoolBoards. Don Smith played the role you're now playing. He's still the admin on the Yahoo group; Straight Inc Alumni. But, as it turns out, there were no thousands of proud happy super Straightlings to come tell us all what for.

It has to start somewhere. It's kind of amusing, though, watching you try to ply the same tactics here in the open wilds of Cyberia that worked so damned well for you on captives who didn't dare tell you just how fuckin nuts you are. See, you can't send me to prison or otherwise punish me so it won't work. But good luck with that!
 :rofl:
Title: A Few Websites To Read Other's Thoughts on Teen Challenge
Post by: Firebird81 on May 07, 2007, 01:23:50 PM
Antigen's ghost--calm down. You really are losing it. I've been reading your responses to my response from a request by someone her eabout how tc works. My post and most others like it have done nothing more than either explain the Teen Challenge progam or challenge you and Karly's erroneous beliefs about it. I have not stooped to the insults that you have from the very first moment.

Your problem with Teen Challenge is based on complete ignorance of Teen Challenge. I will be here to continue to expose your falsehoods. I encourage everyone who comes to this site to thoroughly research any organization they wish to enter or refer a loved one to. By the way, you can order all of teh Teen Challenge curriculum and see for yourself what it's about. They used to charge about $10 a book. So once again, here i am, encouraging YOU and KARLY to actually research and learn about something before forming an opinion and prosyletizing others to your own twisted, uninformed viewpoint.
Title: A Few Websites To Read Other's Thoughts on Teen Challenge
Post by: Firebird81 on May 07, 2007, 01:40:03 PM
Also, Antigen's Ghost, what do you think is an effective way to help people cure their drug addiction? I've been browsing your site and see nothing that offers alternate solutions to helping addicts. What I see see is a general position that all residential rehabs are cults or cult-like---largely because they are reisdential and have rules. So, the military is also a cult, then......
Title: A Few Websites To Read Other's Thoughts on Teen Challenge
Post by: Antigen on May 07, 2007, 02:19:45 PM
Aw, thanks for your concern. But really, I'm fine. Not losing it at all. Actually just sort of enjoying another beautiful Spring day and trying to nail down a paying gig or three before I go play for a couple of days.

You're right. I'm almost completely ignorant of TC, except for the obvious cultish bullshit that anyone can see and having had a couple of friends over the years who either went through it or have friends and loved ones who have. It would be rather silly of me to waste my time and money "researching" an organization by buying their own propaganda, wouldn't it? No, I've found it works a whole lot better to just be patient and ask around till a fair number of people who have actually had some dealings with the organization have had a chance to tell their stories, compare notes and come to some understanding with one another about just what manner of beast chewed them up and spit them out. You'll get there. Don't worry! Just keep on going....  :rofl:

Quote
The truth is she is someone who doesn't believe in residential drug treatment and tha tis what is driving her attacks against Teen Challenge.


Except for Delancy Street. I find that rather odd. I don't know a whole lot about DS either, as ppl just haven't chattered that much about it. But I expect we'll be finding out more about it as time goes on. All the best to ya! Oh, btw, while we're all making friends and getting to know one another I wouldn't want you to feel left out. Here are a list of names of people like minded to you who have posted to this site and who you might look up and make some friends too.

The Seed:
John Underwood
Thom (aka Arrogant Bastard... my brother, btw)
Ft. Lauderdale (everybody knows who this is, but we're not supposed to speak his name... starts with a T)

Abundant Life Academy:
Craig Rogers

Oh, well, that's about all I have time to think about right now. Maybe somebody else can suggest a few friends for you so you won't be so all alone at this party.
Title: A Few Websites To Read Other's Thoughts on Teen Challenge
Post by: hanzomon4 on May 07, 2007, 02:22:27 PM
Quote from: ""Firebird81""
Also, Antigen's Ghost, what do you think is an effective way to help people cure their drug addiction? I've been browsing your site and see nothing that offers alternate solutions to helping addicts. What I see see is a general position that all residential rehabs are cults or cult-like---largely because they are reisdential and have rules. So, the military is also a cult, then......


No, most programs that operate share a bloodline that leads back to Synanon. Synanon is a cult and most programs conform to a few if not all of the tactic types of thought reform. Whether you see it are not TC has a lot of power over their wards and it appears that TC's main goal is to gain more followers(proselytize?). The question becomes is this about religion or rehab. In the questions I asked about the program you never said anything about providing medical care for addicts withdrawal symptoms. The power balance between the program and the court appointed clients is troubling because it takes treatment and turns it into a convert or go to jail situation.

There's nothing wrong with a Christian run rehab but the priority must be given to rehabilitation which must be based on science. Faith can be incorporated, and included but in no way does it replace science in regards to rehabilitation. The information you've given us reads like a policy manual. I have read many policy manuals and what actually goes on in program is usually quiet different.

When I have time I'll ask more questions.....
Title: A Few Websites To Read Other's Thoughts on Teen Challenge
Post by: Firebird81 on May 07, 2007, 02:45:59 PM
Quote
No, most programs that operate share a bloodline that leads back to Synanon. Synanon is a cult and most programs conform to a few if not all of the tactic types of thought reform.
But Teen Challenge was around BEFORE Synanon and started over 3000 miles away in the projects of Spanish harlem. It is not based on any model that aims to tear the individual down and then rebuild them into anything. It is based solely on introducing people to the Christian life and discipling them.

Quote
The question becomes is this about religion or rehab.
Well, now THAT'S a great question! And the answer is this--both. Teen Challenge was founded on the belief of the restorative power of Jesus Christ. They believe He is the great healer and free someone from the bonds of addiction. They also believe in the great commission, where Christ told his disciples to go into the world and preach the Word, reaching out to others---yes, prosyletizing. But will you give me that prosyletizing is pretty much a common practice thruout Christianity? The program curriculum is based on applying Biblical principles to to help overcome life's problems and daily struggles. So, yeah, it's about both.


 
Quote
In the questions I asked about the program you never said anything about providing medical care for addicts withdrawal symptoms.
No medical care is provided for withdrawal. Speed freaks and crackheads tend to sleep it off for a couple days, while heroin an barbiturate addicts have to go thru full withdrawal and TC will make them do it cold turkey if they do so in the facility. Someone is usually assigned to provide whatever assistance they need and most centers will hook them up with the chocolate fix (sweets tend to help take the edge off). Obviously sometimes a heroin withdrawal can be life threatening, so an addict tha thasn't kicked before and has been using large amounts would be better served going into detox first.

 
Quote
The power balance between the program and the court appointed clients is troubling because it takes treatment and turns it into a convert or go to jail situation.
This is a recurring concern, and I DO see the potential for abuse of said power, but in all my years with TC I never saw more than 10% of students in the entire program who were court ordered. Most TC students are genuinely seeking help from addiction. And I can also say with full certainty tha tit is not a policy of Ten Challenge to hold jail sentences over the heads of any student. That doesn't mean that some hot-headed staff member hasn't shot his dumb mouth off, but it's not a part of the program and is not supposed to happen.

There's nothing wrong with a Christian run rehab but the priority must be given to rehabilitation which must be based on science. Faith can be incorporated, and included but in no way does it replace science in regards to rehabilitation. The information you've given us reads like a policy manual. I have read many policy manuals and what actually goes on in program is usually quiet different.

When I have time I'll ask more questions.....[/quote]
Title: A Few Websites To Read Other's Thoughts on Teen Challenge
Post by: Firebird81 on May 07, 2007, 03:06:09 PM
Quote
No, I've found it works a whole lot better to just be patient and ask around till a fair number of people who have actually had some dealings with the organization have had a chance to tell their stories, compare notes and come to some understanding with one another about just what manner of beast chewed them up and spit them out. You'll get there. Don't worry! Just keep on going....  :rofl:
Fair enough, and I will point to the very topics Karly keeps pointing everyone to. There are a few who complain in those topics and quite a few more praise what TC has done for them or a family member. I have no doubt whatsoever that will continue play out in that manner.

Quote
Except for Delancy Street. I find that rather odd. I don't know a whole lot about DS either, as ppl just haven't chattered that much about it. But I expect we'll be finding out more about it as time goes on.
Delancey street seems to be very politically connected in San Francisco. What little I have been able find out suggests that they are similar to Phoenix house. But then again, that's going more on a couple of internet postings.


 
Quote
All the best to ya! Oh, btw, while we're all making friends and getting to know one another I wouldn't want you to feel left out. Here are a list of names of people like minded to you who have posted to this site and who you might look up and make some friends too.

The Seed:
John Underwood
Thom (aka Arrogant Bastard... my brother, btw)
Ft. Lauderdale (everybody knows who this is, but we're not supposed to speak his name... starts with a T)

Abundant Life Academy:
Craig Rogers

Oh, well, that's about all I have time to think about right now. Maybe somebody else can suggest a few friends for you so you won't be so all alone at this party.


I am here for one reason. The truth is, Michael, KArly and anyone on this site who espouse their position are not going to hurt Teen Challenge. It is too large, too old and has far too many success stories. It has been openly endorsed by 4 sitting Presidents, countless Governors, mayors, congress members from both parties, celebritiess and community leaders. I am not here to protect Teen Challenge.

My concern is that people looking for help may be naively turned away from a great program that can offer help and has to so many people. Drug addiction is a plague of the worst kind to thhose who must endure it. It's one thing to warn people of an abusive organization. But in the case of TC, that is not an accurate portrayal.

In any event enjoy t he Spring day. Summe ris coming and it's gonna be hot and sweaty out here.
Title: A Few Websites To Read Other's Thoughts on Teen Challenge
Post by: Antigen on May 07, 2007, 04:05:51 PM
Man, nothing like a walk on a beautiful spring day! Dawg killed and burried a groundhog way down on a steepish part of riverbank. She's the proudest! I'm feeling much better now too.

Quote
My concern is that people looking for help may be naively turned away from a great program that can offer help and has to so many people. Drug addiction is a plague of the worst kind to thhose who must endure it. It's one thing to warn people of an abusive organization. But in the case of TC, that is not an accurate portrayal.


Dude, I believe you believe what you're saying, but that's the basis for every single Synanon/Oxford type cult scapegoats and dehumanizes their critics. When my brother let me stay with his family till I was legally free of Straight, my mother described it as the time Jim tried to kill Ginger. She was completely serious! Hysterical. And I've stood so accused by a long line of combative Stepcraft practitioners and other people who put way too much stock in advice from their invisible friends.

It's ok to have an invisible friend if you want. But it's important to remember humility--that your idea of the nature and intent of your invisible friend is mostly the product of your imagination even if the invisible friend itself does turn out to be real as anything on judgement day, your imagination can rather often be inaccurate.

That's the first trouble with coercive rehab. To put it in pschrink-speak, a therapeutic relationship must rest on trust. Coercion destroys trust. Therefore there is no such thing as coerced therapy.

In the words of a poet, coerced therapy is about like coerced intimacy. There's a word for it. It's a felony.

In practical terms, you could go your whole life brutally traumatizing vulnerable people and never even know you're a monster. All you have to do is dismiss and discredit anybody who tries to present evidence of it to you.

The second trouble with the entire idea is the very basis of it's stated mission. Forced treatment seeks to "cure" the "disease" of addiction. But addiction is not a disease. That was just some bullshit Bill Wilson and his drinkin and skirt chasing club came up with, probably more to hook into the popularity of patent medicines and treatments at the time than any other reason. Remember that this cult got it's start during the daze of L. Ron Hubbard, the Chittaquas, spas and Dr. Linda Hazzard's miraculous starvation cure.

If anybody wants good advice and a broad range of strategies to best deal with a dope habit, you could do worse than to ask RTP2003 or others you find around here or look into Maia Szalavitz's book,  Recovery Options: The Complete Guide.  There are also groups like rational recovery and temperance (not abstinance) movements here and there. If you look hard enough, you'll find a very broad range going back as far as hairless monkeys like us started scratching figures on rocks. This is not a horrifying plague that threatens to destroy all of civilization. Morbid or even just troublesome addiction usually effects somewhere between 1% and 4 or 5% of any given population. The only correlation we know of is stress level. Even water buffalo in Vietnam would chow down on the wild hemp when the shelling started then go back to their usual water fare soon after it stopped.

Right now, in modern day America, we're right at about %3, which is right where we started prior to the Harrison Narcotics Act.

But my biggest trouble with forced treatment is that, in this case, it is forced upon us by our government through grant funding, judicial mandate and free-handed spending on propaganda. "Our calamity is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer."
Title: A Few Websites To Read Other's Thoughts on Teen Challenge
Post by: BuzzKill on May 07, 2007, 06:24:18 PM
Hey Ginger - give Fido a pat and a scratch for me ;)

Thought this might add some levity to the discussion

A Dog Joke

A Baptist preacher and his wife decided to get a dog. Ever mindful of the congregation, they knew that the dog must be a Baptist.

They visited kennel after kennel and explained their needs. No dog seemd to qualify. Finally, they found a kennel whose owner assured them he had just the dog they wanted.

The owner brought the dog to meet the pastor and his wife.

"Fetch the Bible," he commanded.

The dog bounded to the bookshelf, scrutinized the books, located the Bible, and brought it to the owner.

"Now find Psalm 23," he commanded.

The dog dropped the Bible to the floor, and showing marvellous dexterity with his nose, leafed through and finding the correct passage, pointed to it with his paw.

The pastor and his wife were very impressed and purchased the dog.

That evening, a group of church members came to visit. The pastor and his wife began to show off the dog, having him locate several Bible verses...

The visitors were very impressed.

One man asked, "Dose he do regular dog tricks, too?"

"I haven't tried yet" the pastor replied.

Pointing his finger at the dog "HEEL," the pastor commanded.

The dog  jumped on a chair, placed one paw on the pastor's forehead and began to howl.

The good pastor, looking shocked, then exclaimed,  "Good Lord! He's Pentecostal!"

:o


Firebird - I do think you'd understand better where the people here are coming from. if you would do some reading into the history of substance abuse  programs; and the very serious and consistent reports of abuse that arise from these places.

I am sure you are puzzled by TC being suspected of cultic behavior - but if you had a wider frame of reference I think you would understand. You might not agree that TC dose behave like a cult - but you'd have to admit many "Christian" groups do; and most of the involentary substance abuse programs meet the qualifications of being a cult.
Title: A Few Websites To Read Other's Thoughts on Teen Challenge
Post by: Firebird81 on May 08, 2007, 11:13:40 PM
Here is a link to a Teen Challenge FAQ available on the website of the Rehresburg, Pennsylvania facility. Rehresberg is the central TC facility in the country. It is where most people on the east coast will probably find themselves for the phase 3 of the Teen Challenge program. It answers someof the questions some of you have.
http://www.teenchallengetc.com/resource ... tm#Scene_1 (http://www.teenchallengetc.com/resources/faq.htm#Scene_1)

Buzzkill, I understand where you're coming from. In fact, I can't say I've seen anything in any of your posts I would disagree with. See, I believe that some of the ones here who would call TC a cult use the synanon model as a comparison and in their minds they read everything I write with that preconception in mind.

When I was trying to decide what program was best for me, I was seeking advice from my parole officer. He was a big fan of the Phoenix House--which is a Synanon based program. In fact Phoenix House had come to interview me over a year before when I was facing my third state prison sentence and was hoping to get in a program ( of course, the state parole board ruled that out in very heated morrissey hearing).

I already knew Phoenix House's reputation as a tough, hardcore program, but the interviewer wanted to talk about beach trips( later I learned that they get everyone excited for these trips, then cancel at the last minute as some attempt to help them deal with disappointment, bure bs i fyou ask me), their vocational programs--decent careers actually, like offset printing, and the assurance that they wouldn't fail me because they would require me to have my own apartment for a year, be fully employed and have at least $2000 in the bank before I graduated. No mention at all of the hot seat sessions, the degradation techniques meant to break you, like forcing a disobedient student to wear a toilet seat around there head. No mention at all of the first 90 days of the Phoenix House model.

My parole officer, however, had sat on their board before and was a strong advocate. He explained to me the model--the first 90 days was dedicated to completely breaking you down and the following 21 months was dedicated to rebuilding you into a typical briefcase carrying robot model. I interviewed with Phoenix House in Santa Ana and told them about my jail interview. This interview was quite different---The lady would calmly ask me a question about my drug history and every answer I gave would be met with her yelling at me " what's wrong with you" or "when will you learn". She was basically gauging my reactions. My parole officer had told me of this stuff, so I tried my best to answer as humbly as possible and to express my desperation---and I was desperate. I had spent my life abusing every drug imaginable and had become a hype shooting meth in my veins and my mind had long succumbed to speed psychosis. I was very scared that I had gone too far and that my mind may not make it back this time. I was in a very vulnerable state and Phoenix House had the reputation for being extremely successful for those who actually finish it. I was also uneasy by a program that I felt would try to rob me of my identity. I also worried that I wouldn't be able to make it thru that first 90 days without stringing a staffmember up by their nuts--I was an ex-con who had committed all sorts of violence and had a fairly uncontrollable temper.

The tale of how I found out about Teen Challenge was quite interesting and would amaze most Christians at God's power, but the average person here would doubt it, call me a liar and laugh. But let me just leave it with this--there was about a 30 day period where it seemed there was a conspiracy coming at me from all different angles pointing me toward Teen Challenge. So while I was waiting for Phoenix House to call back, I went to a Turning Point meeting, This is where TC usually conducts interviews.

 I sat thru a Bible study and was pretty impressed with this guy conducting it. He was just this friendly guy who told us about how God had changed him from his former life of addiction. Afterwards I asked to be interviewed and he explained ot me what Teen Challenge was about. He pulled no punches on what they expected and gave me an application as well as a full physical form to be signed by a doctor before I could be admitted. To make a long story short I chose Teen Challenge.

My experience at Teen Challenge was nothing like what the Phoenix House would have been. There was no tearing me down model and rebuilding me. There was no group therapy session where everyone would tear into me. Counselling was one on one and only used to gauge my progress and help me thru any struggles I was having ( at my request). This progam was not centered around a model of counselling. From the get-go it was about Discipleship in the Christian faith. Picture daily Sunday School and you'll get the idea.

Staff members eschewed the role model philosophy of Synanon as well, telling the students not to follow them, but to follow God, because they would most assuredly let you down. This was a very common TC theme thruout Teen Challenge. Oh I came across staff members and especially interns who were hot-headed. Never once did I ever in over 7 years involvement see a staffmember threaten violence or act in a threatening manner to a student, tho. That is grounds for dismissal and in another discussion i asked Michael Kincheloe aboout some of the charges he made regarding that and whether or not he reported the staffmember for threatening him and he refused to answer the question--puzzling since every student in TC knows that such behaior by staff is unacceptable.

Teen Challenge did not try to turn me into a robot like Phoenix House felt like it would. Teen Challenge did not degrade or use any abusive techniques to rehabilitate me. As someone who went thru extensive staff training and served as staff for 5 years, I can tell you that kind of stuff is strictly frowned on. Teen Challenge did not self-aggrandize, there were no instances i nall of my years with TC where they tried to convince people that TC was the only chance they had--TC instead puts that responsibility on God's shoulders. TC does not encourage people to stay indefinitely and join their communal fellowship. They encourage people to get out of the progam and get involve din theor local churches and live productive lives. There is a big focus on following God's call on your life, but they do not attempt to tell you what God is calling you to do. They leave that between you and God. Their concern is simply that you follow His desire for your life.
Title: A Few Websites To Read Other's Thoughts on Teen Challenge
Post by: Karly on May 09, 2007, 01:05:03 AM
Firebird-  Maybe you have had certain experiences like you say, but the fact of the matter is that there are ALOT of people out there who have had some VERY bad experiences at Teen Challenge!  That is why I have started the Investigating Teen Challenge website.  

It is also a FACT that the VERY high drop-out rate for Teen Challenge is tremendous and it is ALSO a FACT that Teen Challenge is bragging about statistics that are from 1975, which was 32 years ago!  Those statistics were done on Teen Challenge graduates from 1968, which was  39 years ago!!!  Out of those 186 people, a total of 143 people dropped out of the Teen Challenge program!!!  Read:  http://http://teenchallengecult.blogspot.com/2007/02/teen-challenge-success-rates-are-from.html

Another problem (which is just one of the MANY problems that I have with Teen Challenge) is that each and every person who is an advocate for Teen Challenge (including each and every single Teen Challenge website) gives me the exact same biased information/story.  You all seem to be identical clones of one another and that not only creeps me out but it also spooks the heck out of ALOT of people!  Maybe you can't see that you do that, but everyone who has been reading your posts can see that!  And, I will be the first to say- I feel sorry for you!  Hopefully someday you will be able to step back and realize that all is not what it appears in the Teen Challenge world!
Title: A Few Websites To Read Other's Thoughts on Teen Challenge
Post by: Michael Kincheloe on May 09, 2007, 01:39:42 AM
They all follow the same talking points. Mr. Dau is no exception.

In the February 14, 2005 issue of Dissident Voice, journalist Amy Sullivan wrote in "Faith, Fabrications, and Fantasy" that "Teen Challenge's much ballyhooed 86 percent rehabilitation rate falls apart under examination -- the number doesn't include those who dropped out of Teen Challenge and relies on a disturbingly small sample of those graduates who self-reported whether they had remained sober, significantly tilting the results."
Title: A Few Websites To Read Other's Thoughts on Teen Challenge
Post by: Karly on May 12, 2007, 05:26:08 PM
Who is Mr. Dau?
Title: A Few Websites To Read Other's Thoughts on Teen Challenge
Post by: Michael Kincheloe on May 12, 2007, 05:38:52 PM
Firebird81's real name is Matthew Dau. He lives in Seal Beach.

Here's his picture:

http://file003a.bebo.com/large/2005/10/ ... 01098l.jpg (http://file003a.bebo.com/large/2005/10/11/07/19902471a18067735b998201098l.jpg)
Title: A Few Websites To Read Other's Thoughts on Teen Challenge
Post by: Firebird81 on May 13, 2007, 10:00:24 PM
Quote from: ""Michael Kincheloe""
Firebird81's real name is Matthew Dau. He lives in Seal Beach.

Here's his picture:

http://file003a.bebo.com/large/2005/10/ ... 01098l.jpg (http://file003a.bebo.com/large/2005/10/11/07/19902471a18067735b998201098l.jpg)


I'm who?? Sorry to disappoint, you, Michael, but you do not know me.
Title: A Few Websites To Read Other's Thoughts on Teen Challenge
Post by: Michael Kincheloe on May 14, 2007, 12:52:53 AM
"I am a graduate of the southern California Teen Challenge and a former staff member of Los Angeles Teen Challenge. I am also a graduate of the Teen Challenge Ministry Institute."

Firebird81  Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 8:05 pm

From topix:

"See...I am a graduate and also a former staff member of Los Angeles Teen Challenge."

Matt
Los Angeles, CA

"It's certainly obvious by your attitude that you learned absolutely nothing that was taught to you in Teen Challenge. Who was your 4th phase teacher at Riverside and what classes were they teaching?"

Matt
Downey, CA

"His attitude and the things he chose to attack looks more to be like a personal vendetta…"

Matt
Irvine, CA

Same information on Karly’s board and the first topix post. The diction in all four posts is identical. The Los Angeles and Downey posts were probably done at work, the Irvine post from your home. Your phone number is (562) 598-2356.

http://www.bebo.com/PhotoAlbum.jsp?PhotoAlbumId=3360536 (http://www.bebo.com/PhotoAlbum.jsp?PhotoAlbumId=3360536)
Title: A Few Websites To Read Other's Thoughts on Teen Challenge
Post by: Firebird81 on May 14, 2007, 10:25:04 AM
NO, Michael, you are wrong. Call the number. This is laughable. I shouldn't be surprised, tho. You did put a couple quotes form me, but for some reason have me as posting from downey or Irvine. The others are absolutely not me. I've never lived in Seal Beach, I've never worked in Downey or Riverside. Sorry, Bud. I live in Anaheim. Can we get back to the topic?

I'm the one who asked you to clarify about a staff member threatening to kick your ass, in your own words.
I asked a few other questions and rather than answer them, you ran away. I believe you are dishonest and a fraud. Otherwise, you would address those questions.
Title: A Few Websites To Read Other's Thoughts on Teen Challenge
Post by: Firebird81 on May 14, 2007, 02:24:11 PM
I think I just realized why you ran? You thought I was someone who knew you, didn't you?
Title: A Few Websites To Read Other's Thoughts on Teen Challenge
Post by: Michael Kincheloe on May 14, 2007, 09:10:19 PM
You think I'm dishonest and a fraud? Whao cares what you think? Fuck you and the slut you're married to.

What good would it have done to tell someone what Randy said my very first week at Shafter? It was just he and I; there were no witnesses. I didn't even know who Rod Tidwell was until I was at fire camp a month later, when pinche bruja Christie Luna said "Rod Tidwell said hello." Who is that? "He's the director." Oh. I thought Ruben Heredia was the director. Rod wasn't involved in the day-to-day activities, just as Dennis Griffith was rarely seen at Riverside.  

I ran? From your punk ass? I ignored you. I don't have to answer shit to a take-it-in-the-ass punk bitch like you. If you want to call me a liar and a fraud to my face, look me up in the Visalia directory and name the time and place. If you want to talk to someone at Teen Challenge who knew me, talk to Stan Williams. He knew Ahmed Morris and detested him; no other staff members liked him either, because he bullied others while hiding behind the skirts of Teen Challenge. You can bet if I saw him on the street he'd be really nice to me, but I'd spit in face and call him a cocksucker, and it'd be on.
Title: A Few Websites To Read Other's Thoughts on Teen Challenge
Post by: Firebird81 on May 15, 2007, 12:46:35 AM
Quote from: ""Michael Kincheloe""
You think I'm dishonest and a fraud? Whao cares what you think? Fuck you and the slut you're married to.

What good would it have done to tell someone what Randy said my very first week at Shafter? It was just he and I; there were no witnesses. I didn't even know who Rod Tidwell was until I was at fire camp a month later, when pinche bruja Christie Luna said "Rod Tidwell said hello." Who is that? "He's the director." Oh. I thought Ruben Heredia was the director. Rod wasn't involved in the day-to-day activities, just as Dennis Griffith was rarely seen at Riverside.  

I ran? From your punk ass? I ignored you. I don't have to answer shit to a take-it-in-the-ass punk bitch like you. If you want to call me a liar and a fraud to my face, look me up in the Visalia directory and name the time and place. If you want to talk to someone at Teen Challenge who knew me, talk to Stan Williams. He knew Ahmed Morris and detested him; no other staff members liked him either, because he bullied others while hiding behind the skirts of Teen Challenge. You can bet if I saw him on the street he'd be really nice to me, but I'd spit in face and call him a cocksucker, and it'd be on.


Sadly, I am not the least bit surprised by your juvenile outburst. It's also becoming very clear exactly why you had problems in Teen Challenge. No ,you don't have to answer any of my questions, but here's a little news flash for you. When you choose to use a public forum to voice an opinion, then you should not only expect people to challenge that opinion, you should be prepared to back it up. If you instead resort to name calling and threats, then you merely come off looking like you were full of it the entire time. So, it's your choice, Michael. Because I am not going to let up.

Concerning Randy threatening you, are you trying to tell me that a college educated individual like yourself isn't intelligent enough to know there's something wrong with that and it should be reported? If he had threatened you, he would have been dismissed. And you owed it to anyone else who he might harm or threaten in the future to expose it when it happened.

I will repost all of my questions again. If your positions hold any weight, you will back them up. And don't try to act like a tough guy, Michael. A man who hides for a year in a program to avoid a year in county jail isn't tough.
Title: A Few Websites To Read Other's Thoughts on Teen Challenge
Post by: Michael Kincheloe on May 15, 2007, 10:58:12 AM
I have answered all of your questions. If you lack the ability to understand these answers, that's your misfortune.

Your Monday morning quarterbacking is just that, since you never spent any time at Shafter as a "student," therefore you have no knowledge of what really goes on there. All induction centers are not the same.

Why do you hide behind a screen name? Don't you have the balls to put your real name out there? Yet you call ME a fraud, demanding this and that from myself, Karly, and others. Well, you can demand with one hand, and shit in the other, and see which one fills up fastest. The site is going to stay right where it is, and there's nothing you can do about it except complain on these boards, hiding behind a pseudonym.
Title: A Few Websites To Read Other's Thoughts on Teen Challenge
Post by: Michael Kincheloe on May 15, 2007, 12:00:09 PM
A man who hides for a year in a program to avoid a year in county jail isn't tough.
......................................................................................................

He's smart. A man who is afraid to post his real name when challenged to do so is a coward.
Title: A Few Websites To Read Other's Thoughts on Teen Challenge
Post by: Firebird81 on May 16, 2007, 01:31:11 AM
Quote from: ""Michael Kincheloe""
A man who hides for a year in a program to avoid a year in county jail isn't tough.
......................................................................................................

He's smart. A man who is afraid to post his real name when challenged to do so is a coward.

What is your obsession with my name? I already told you, you don't know me.

Keep puffing your chest up, Michael. Every post you make I see exactly the person I first thought you were. I fyou were going to spit in someone's face you would have done it when they offended you. You are nothing but an immature little boy hiding in a man's body.

Yes, you are a fraud. You entered a program under fraudulent circumstances, remained in that program under fraudulent circumstances, had no intention of trying that program, just used it to stay out of jail ( like all tough guys, do, right, Michael?), celebrated completing it by getting drunk, and then 3 years later created a website to attack that program, declaring that it doesn't work because you got drunk the first day afterward, when you had no intention of quitting to begin with. You then presented yourself as representing all fo the people who had suffered at the hands of that program, as if you had an S on your chest.  You are a fraud.

I asked you a number of questions on your topix.net thread and you ran. You have yet to answer those questions. When I asked them over there you reacted the same way you have here. You puffed out your chest and screamed insults. "we're playing by MY rules now". Isn't that what you said? You can't stand being challenged without resorting to empty threats. AM I to believe you spent an entire year with people in your face threatening violence and worse and just took it? Like I said--a fraud.
Title: A Few Websites To Read Other's Thoughts on Teen Challenge
Post by: Growler Sandue on May 16, 2007, 11:21:30 AM
How do you know he doesn't know you if you won't post your name? Seems like a small thing to ask. What are you afraid of?  :question:

Just wondering.
Title: A Few Websites To Read Other's Thoughts on Teen Challenge
Post by: Firebird81 on May 16, 2007, 11:34:08 AM
Quote from: ""Growler Sandue""
How do you know he doesn't know you if you won't post your name? Seems like a small thing to ask. What are you afraid of?  :question:

Just wondering.


I was gone from teen challenge for 3 years before Michael entered the program. By the time he came around only staff members would have known me. Michael already posted the personal phone number of some poor shmuck he thought was me, showing his immaturity. I could only imagine all of the stupid things he would do if he had my name. So, no, he will not be getting that. Besides, it's driving him crazy.
Title: A Few Websites To Read Other's Thoughts on Teen Challenge
Post by: Karly on May 16, 2007, 09:16:12 PM
Quote from: ""Firebird81""
Yes please go to all of those. You will see a recurring theme.


Yes people!- Please take firebirds advice and visit all of those links I have posted on the 1st post in this thread!  I have even posted a couple of new links and I will continue to add more!  And yes- the recurring theme is that there is mounting evidence that proves that Teen Challenge isn't all it's cracked up to be!  

You gotta love Teen Challenge's self-reported program success rates!
Title: A Few Websites To Read Other's Thoughts on Teen Challenge
Post by: MeAndHer on June 30, 2007, 06:02:02 PM
I know someone who went through Teen Challenge about 2 years or so ago.  Farce was the word he used to describe it.  Forced  confessions, shoving the belief in an Invisible Sky Wizard down their throats (berating anyone who dares to question), threats of Hellfire and Damnation everywhere and the cherry on top of this twisted little place......Teen Challenge gets a TON of shit donated to them....food, all kinds of sundries, beverages and an assortment of other things.  The vast majority of these "donations" end up going out he back door of the place and into the trunks of employees cars.

Now cap that off with the fact that they receive Federal $$$$ (W's fucking faith based shit) and you've got just another run-of-the-mill mind-rape facility.  This one just uses religion to justify what they do.


http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modu ... oryid=6243 (http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=6243)

by Mike McManus
June 29, 2007

The U.S. Supreme Court rejected a lawsuit by a 5-4 vote filed by The Freedom from Religion Foundation to terminate President Bush's Office of Faith-based and Community Initiatives. The Foundation calls itself the nation's largest atheist organization.

"Had Justice O'Connor remained on the court, as she was when we filed this lawsuit, we are confident this would have been a 5-4 decision in our favor," said the Foundation's president.

When he was Governor of Texas, Bush came across "Teen Challenge" a drug addict recovery program which had a very high success rate because it emphasized the importance of making a commitment to Christ, to seek His help to overcome the addiction. It was 3-4 times more effective than secular programs, but could not get funded because it was "faith-based."

Therefore, one of his first actions as president was to create the Faith-Based & Community Initiatives Office in the White House and in major federal agencies whose goal was to ensure that "private and charitable groups, including religious ones...have the fullest opportunity permitted by law to compete on a level playing field" for federal grants.

In fiscal 2005 seven federal agencies awarded $2.1 billion to religious charities, up 16 percent from 2003, and represented 11 percent of the grants from those agencies for such programs as substance abuse treatment, housing for AIDS patients, community re-entry for inmates, housing for homeless veterans and emergency food assistance. However, none of the federal money can be used to proselytize, only to provide services.

The President praised the decision as a "substantial victory" for "strengthening America's armies of compassion. Those in need are better served when government draws in the strengths of every willing community partner - secular and faith-based."

The atheists filed a suit on grounds it made the government "vehicles of religious propaganda." It alleged that faith-based groups "are singled out as being particularly worthy of federal funding," and that believers are "insiders and favored members of the political community."

Regrettably, the Court did not deal with such arguments directly, but decided on technical grounds that the Foundation did not have "standing" to sue since its officers only did so only as taxpayers, and did not "allege personal injury."

"It is a complete fiction to argue that an unconstitutional federal expenditure causes an individual federal taxpayer any measurable economic harm," wrote Justice Samuel Alito for the majority. "If every federal taxpayer could sue to challenge any Government expenditure, the federal courts would cease to function as courts of law and would be cast in the role of general complaint bureaus."

The atheists rested their case on a decision in 1968 of Faust v. Cohen, to allow a challenge to the Elementary and Secondary Education Act created to improve education of the poor, that allowed some of its hundreds of millions to go to parochial schools. The Court ruled that violated the First Amendment which says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

However, Congress passed no law to create the small faith-based office. Rather, the President simply assigning the task to several staff in the White House plus perhaps 40 people in 11 agencies. The Court noted the lawsuit cited "no statute whose application they challenge."

The lawsuit did allege that it is "arbitrary" to distinguish between a Congressional mandate and a decision by the Executive branch, because both are supporting religion with "funds exacted from taxpayers."

Interestingly, Justices Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas agreed with the challengers that the Faust exception muddied the waters, saying "there is no intellectual justification" for halting some funding for faith-based work while allow others. They wanted to actually overturn the 1968 ruling that they called "an inkblot on our jurisprudence," but voted with the majority on the more narrow position, that the atheists lacked standing and could cite no Congressional action to create the office.

Justice David Souter, writing for the minority, charged, "The controlling opinion closes the door on these taxpayers because the Executive Branch and not the Legislative Branch, caused their injury. I see no basis for this distinction in either logic or precedent, and respectfully dissent."

However the Freedom from Religion Foundation saw a "silver lining" in the fact the Faust decision was not overturned. Bush's two appointees to the Court, Roberts and Alito, are conservative, but are incrementalists, who balance previous Court rulings with new challenges.

Nevertheless, Jay Sekulow, chief counsel for the American Center for Law and Justice which filed a brief supporting Administration, called the decision "a very significant victory."

---Michael J. McManus is a syndicated columnist writing on "Ethics & Religion". He is President & Co-Chair of Marriage Savers.


 He lives with his wife in Potomac, MD.




I don't care if you or anyone else wants to believe in their adult fairy tales, but don't use MY fucking tax dollars to support it.
Title: Re: A Few Websites To Read Other's Thoughts on Teen Challenge
Post by: Anonymous on July 16, 2008, 09:35:22 PM
Teen challenge just opened up down the street from my house. . . . I posted "I brake for children fleeling abusive drug rehabs" bumpersticker on their vehicles.  Didn't last long, was taken off pretty soon.   Too bad; DFAF recommends them?  Then it must be a shit place to be!
Title: Let Me Tell You a Real Life Experience Instead of blah, blah
Post by: Anonymous on December 27, 2008, 09:26:11 AM
My son has been to Teen Challenge 2 times and on his 2nd try has now made it to "God's Mountain" in Rehresburg, PA. He is turned 24,Nov. 2008. I have been battling "Crack Cocaine" drug addiction with him since he was 19, the Fall of 2002.  It has wrecked our familie's lives. I am open minded and not a rigid religious person ---just believe in God - a higher power. I can tell you "SCIENCE" DOES NOT WORK ! I was against a "12 Step program" & I sent my son to Narconon at age 19 to rid "Crack Cocaine" addiction. This is a scientology program where they study and go to class every day to understand addiction for 3-6 months. They, also, give them 42 vitamins a day, put them in a sauna and sweat it out (drug toxins) of them everyday. IT DID NOT WORK ! I spent $13,000 & a plane ticket to go to Narconon in Montreal, Canada because in the US it would have cost $24,000. He has been "in and out" of drug rehabs for 6 years. The closest thing to making him aware of his addiction and his predisposed genes has been Teen Challenge. You see, "Crack Cocaine" addiction is like swiping a credit card through your brain because that urge is psychological. It never goes away without a change in your outlook on life and a FIGHT. The Teen Challenge program, from a mother's point of view , is fighting that "urge" with a new philosophy. Philosophy is the study of the principles underlying conduct, thought and general principles of a field of knowledge.In short, studying a particular system of ethics. "Crack Cocaine" is known as the "Devil's Candy" and what better person to fight that urge with than "God". It's "Good" versus "Evil". Most of those that are against religion do not understand it but please do not discourage those from going to Teen Challenge because you are against religion. ALSO, DO NOT CONDEMN A PROGRAM YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT. YOU, ALSO, KNOW NOTHING ABOUT CURING DRUG ADDICTION THROUGH SCIENCE. Your statements where all your own thoughts and beliefs. Thanks for letting me share.
Title: Re: A Few Websites To Read Other's Thoughts on Teen Challenge
Post by: Ursus on December 27, 2008, 11:57:18 AM
Quote from: "mireland"
I can tell you "SCIENCE" DOES NOT WORK ! I was against a "12 Step program" & I sent my son to Narconon at age 19 to rid "Crack Cocaine" addiction. This is a scientology program where they study and go to class every day to understand addiction for 3-6 months. They, also, give them 42 vitamins a day, put them in a sauna and sweat it out (drug toxins) of them everyday. IT DID NOT WORK !

You are sadly mistaken if you believe that Scientology has anything to do with "Science." Scientology's origins do lie partially with science fiction, however! Quite literally, I might add!

Not wishing to disparage you or minimize what you and your family has been through, but you just took your son out of one cult...and put him into another.
Title: Re: A Few Websites To Read Other's Thoughts on Teen Challenge
Post by: Miz LaMere on December 27, 2008, 03:19:25 PM
This is kinda fun.  I am interested in checking out other websites that deal with these schools!  I am new here and trying to find my way around this site.  I keep getting lost!
Title: Re: A Few Websites To Read Other's Thoughts on Teen Challenge
Post by: Che Gookin on December 29, 2008, 08:53:09 PM
Someone pm Miz Lamere the url for that Maia article on the evolution of programs that she did. Might be quite instructive for the young lady.
Title: Re: A Few Websites To Read Other's Thoughts on Teen Challeng
Post by: dragonfly on August 28, 2011, 10:59:50 PM
Title: Thoughts from someone who escaped from the "Cult"
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on December 09, 2011, 10:21:20 AM
Well, I've been reading through some of these Discussion Boards, and thought that my input might carry some weight.  Since I have actually been enrolled in Teen Challenge, and successfully completely both phases of the program, unlike some other people who are posting on here...

When I went into Teen Challenge, I was court ordered because I had been arrested three times in just under a year.  All of the arrest were drug-related offenses.  To make a long story short, I was raised in a church, and never even liked going to church when I was invited.  But by the time I was arrested for the third time, I was completely addicted to drugs & alcohol, and was desperate to get myself clean, so I thought I'd try Teen Challenge.

The program had a very strict curriculum, and I wanted to leave the program several times (Once you are in the program, you are free to leave whenever you choose, but you cannot come back for a certain amount of time once you do).  If I wasn't court-ordered to finish Teen Challenge, I probably would have left to be honest.  But I stuck it out, and did my best to follow all of the rules that were enforced.  The consequences for breaking the rules vary, but you normally will have to do extra chores, and memorize more scriptures out of the Bible.

The program is basically: very structured, work responsibilities, Bible classes, required church attendence, scripture memorization, etc.  It was EXACTLY what I needed!  I'm not going to claim to be an expert on cults, but I believe most cults brainwash you to believe that someone or something in the confines of that cult should be worshipped.  Teen Challenge is not like that at all.  You are required to attend church services, but that's about it.  They don't strong-arm anyone to believe anything, they simply take an approach like most parents should when raising their children, "You're living under my roof, you will follow my rules.  If you don't follow my rules, you will have to pay consequences.  If you don't like the consequences, you are free to leave at any time."  It's that simple!

Anyway, as I stuck with the program, I tried to give this "Christianity" thing a serious try, and started praying and reading my bible daily.  Before I knew it, God had healed my body and my mind.  I was a new person by the time I left that program.  I never "worshipped" or "served" Teen Challenge while I was in the program, I was encouraged and learned how to "worhsip" and "serve" God.  That's it.

If you're still reading this, I have long been removed from Teen Challenge.  I am no longer affiliated with the program in any way.  But because of that "Cult," I have now been sober for 6 years, and have a beautiful wife and two beautiful daughters.  I'm a pretty decent husband, father, and man.   I attend church every Sunday, and pay my taxes.  I have a great job working for the US Army.  Basically, I'm now a normal person, and my family - who couldn't trust me as far as they could throw me when I was addicted to drugs - loves me more than ever before.  Teen Challenge did all of that for me.  If that's what a "cult" is, then I encouraged anyone with a life-controlling addiction to find the nearest cult, and get involved as soon as possible!  God Bless!