Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on March 20, 2006, 05:48:00 PM
-
Anyone know anything about this place?
-
My daughter went to SNWP Georgia. She was there for 12 weeks. I went through the transition program at the end of her stay. Her therapist was really good. We had weekly hour phone conferences with the therapist. My daughter still keeps in contact with the staff and her therapist from time to time. My daughter has nothing but good things to say about the program and thinks it did her a world of good. She felt strong, introspective and accomplished at the end. We were all pleased with it.
-
My child also had an excellent experience at this program, after being extremely resistant for many weeks. He actually talked about going back there and working someday. The entire therapeutic staff is excellent. 2N is probably the best treatment available for a teen.
-
In other words, it's crap, but nobody knows about it, so all you get is the auto-responses from the programmies. Gotcha. Actually, correction. What I mean is some fucking cocksucker programmie posted this topic, and then replied to it. Asshole.
(Hint: No teenager is going to keep in contact with a therapist from a wilderness program. Ever.)
[ This Message was edited by: Luke Stephens on 2006-03-21 21:29 ]
-
That's pure bullshit. Mine did and does. Even the kids that don't make it at TBS liked SNWP. I don't like to name programs, especially the ones I like (SNWP) because then, automatically, losers like you bash it not knowing a god-damned thing about it. Maybe you posted the question so that you could bash unsuspecting people like me? Have you had any happiness or success anywhere? Or are you playing the blame game? Grow up loser.
-
On 2006-03-22 06:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"That's pure bullshit. Mine did and does. Even the kids that don't make it at TBS liked SNWP. I don't like to name programs, especially the ones I like (SNWP) because then, automatically, losers like you bash it not knowing a god-damned thing about it. Maybe you posted the question so that you could bash unsuspecting people like me? Have you had any happiness or success anywhere? Or are you playing the blame game? Grow up loser."
You talk to your kid this way too probably dont you? No wonder you had to send them away, who would want to be around you? I would act out too until I got away from your negativity. Grow up loser, oh wait, you never grew out of it. You will always be a loser. :lol:
-
"Even the kids that don't make it at TBS liked SNWP"
That is absolutely correct. Many kids keep in touch with their therapists from 2N and have really good feelings about it. It is a class operation.
-
I went to second nature... and it was the dumbest thing ever. My parents sent me away for smoking ciggarettes and ditching school once and they think having me camp out with a bunch of losers is going to help me. yeah right... my parents are clueless. How come you only see parents coming to this site to support programs... you say the kids liked it... think again you are making shit up.
-
"It is a class operation."
You gotta be kidding. :rofl:
-
On 2006-03-22 07:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I went to second nature... and it was the dumbest thing ever. My parents sent me away for smoking ciggarettes and ditching school once and they think having me camp out with a bunch of losers is going to help me. yeah right... my parents are clueless. How come you only see parents coming to this site to support programs... you say the kids liked it... think again you are making shit up."
I'm not making shit up. My kid loved it. Who was your therapist? What group were you in? I don't think you are telling the truth.
-
I don't think you are telling the truth.
Of course you don't because you are so indoctrinated you can't possibly believe not everyone loves your beloved program.
-
"I don't think you are telling the truth."
fuck off, you think I care what you think?
-
On 2006-03-22 06:58:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-03-22 06:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"That's pure bullshit. Mine did and does. Even the kids that don't make it at TBS liked SNWP. I don't like to name programs, especially the ones I like (SNWP) because then, automatically, losers like you bash it not knowing a god-damned thing about it. Maybe you posted the question so that you could bash unsuspecting people like me? Have you had any happiness or success anywhere? Or are you playing the blame game? Grow up loser."
You talk to your kid this way too probably dont you? No wonder you had to send them away, who would want to be around you? I would act out too until I got away from your negativity. Grow up loser, oh wait, you never grew out of it. You will always be a loser. :lol: "
I don't believe I called anyone a cocksucker. That will yield a negative response. Oh wait, I forgot, program supporters aren't allowed to speak their mind, only the angry little people trying to make sense of their empty lives. Sorry.
-
Have any of you ever finished anything but a beer or a joint?
-
See, you didn't go to SNWP or you would prove me wrong.
-
I don't believe I called anyone a cocksucker. That will yield a negative response. Oh wait, I forgot, program supporters aren't allowed to speak their mind, only the angry little people trying to make sense of their empty lives. Sorry.
:wstupid:
Funny, it seems to me like you are posting here just like every one else. But seriously, consider feeling sorry for yourself. :roll: :lol: So why'd you send your kid away, who was their therapist and when were they there. What was their name. Until you answer these questions I don't believe you.
-
On 2006-03-22 07:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"See, you didn't go to SNWP or you would prove me wrong."
i didn't want to go, but I had stupid parents like you! you are a bad parent, not only did you fail in raising your kid, you sought out a program that sucks majorly. your kid hates you.
-
On 2006-03-22 07:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Have any of you ever finished anything but a beer or a joint?"
:cry: Why so harsh? Now I am going to go cry to my mom. You hurt my feelings. Boo-hoo.
-
You didn't go, at least not to SNWP. You went to an ineffective program. And, you don't hate your parents or you wouldn't be so hurt and unable to let it go. My kid is now in college and doesn't hate me. But, that doesn't really matter. I'm a parent first and a friend second.
-
didn't know Dr. Phil was in the house! lol I know you have to tell yourself these things, but they arent true. you are what is called a true believer.
-
and until you answer those questions posed earlier (therapist, kids name, time there), i dont believe you ever had a kid at SNW... you are a marketing person. you think we dont know, but guess again!!!
-
On 2006-03-22 07:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"See, you didn't go to SNWP or you would prove me wrong."
Your kid never went, prove me wrong.
-
Ok, so so far one kid says it was lame and no one else who has responded has any firsthand info.
So, who was the original anon and did you get something of what you were after? What was the purpose of the question? Did you go there? Friend went there? Your kid there?Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
--Bruce Lee
-
Eudora,
I believe I do have first hand knowledge. I had a kid there for 12 weeks. I spent 36 hours in the woods with her when it was over. I met with her threrapist with my child present for hours during the transition phase and kept in constant contact with the therapist during the stay. We had regular one hour/ weekly phone conferences and e-mail at anytime. Plus, we had the therapist's personal cell number to call. My kid was promoted to the highest phase (Air) and though she says the program was physically challenging at times, she thinks it is the most worthwhile thing she's done in her life. She has a sense of accomplishment and, like it or not, it was a great thing for her. Some kids aren't mature enough to take advantage of a golden opportunity. Mine was, and though she went willingly, she still thanks her father (we are divorced) for sending her. I was not in favor of sending her there and then I saw the results and realized I was mistaken. It is an excellent program for some but obviously some kids can't be reached.
-
I also have firsthand knowledge. I had a kid there for 9 1/2 weeks. My kid's therapist was one of the principals of the company, and was one of the most gifted and practical therapists I have ever encountered. We had constant contact with the therapist through weekly calls and emails. We spent a lot of time with him during the transition out of wilderness. We also dealt with others on the staff, including the therapist who does the diagnostic testing. I have spoken to a number of parents- and kids- about this program and have not heard ANY negatives. Every therapist was valued and the field staff is well-trained and capable. The equipment is good (we still have it in our house) and the program was very willing to work with us on financial matters.
-
On 2006-03-22 08:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Eudora,
I believe I do have first hand knowledge. I had a kid there for 12 weeks. I spent 36 hours in the woods with her when it was over. I met with her threrapist with my child present for hours during the transition phase and kept in constant contact with the therapist during the stay. We had regular one hour/ weekly phone conferences and e-mail at anytime. Plus, we had the therapist's personal cell number to call. My kid was promoted to the highest phase (Air) and though she says the program was physically challenging at times, she thinks it is the most worthwhile thing she's done in her life. She has a sense of accomplishment and, like it or not, it was a great thing for her. Some kids aren't mature enough to take advantage of a golden opportunity. Mine was, and though she went willingly, she still thanks her father (we are divorced) for sending her. I was not in favor of sending her there and then I saw the results and realized I was mistaken. It is an excellent program for some but obviously some kids can't be reached."
I'm glad you had a good experience and it was wothwhile for your kid. That's great.
One thing I do take issue with is the statement that "some kids can't be reached." It is true, but it's unfair to say that because WILDERNESS didn't help them that they're unreachable.
The fact of the matter is that WT programs are only effective for a VERY NARROW segment of the population they serve. It's patently obvious that anyone with any real problems (mental health issues that reach the clinical threshold) will not be helped by this type of program.
The problem with these places is that they claim to be able to treat almost any problem from ADD to ODD to depression and more. They can't.
The truth is if your kid was helped, it is your kid who is the statistical anomaly, not the one who didn't benefit.
-
2N does not claim to FIX a kid. They know that wilderness is just the first step- but it is an important first step. The reason kids do NOT succeed is frequently because they go home and resume their same habits after wilderness. Wilderness is the ambulance that gets the kid to where they need to go next. If a kid's family had the resources to leave him in the woods for a year or so (and education could be accomplished) there would probably be much less need for the TBSs. I would say the short-term success rate for wilderness (improving family dynamics, breaking the pattern of substance abuse, making in-roads on the emotional issues) is extremely high.
-
Wilderness is the ambulance that gets the kid to where they need to go next.
And where might that be?
-
It depends on the kid. Some kids go back home and do fine. Some go to traditional boarding schools. Some go to TBS. Second Nature doesn't take all kids. For exmple, they will not take a kid with an eating disorder. My kid thinks all teens would benefit from Second Nature. But, some are just too reisitant to anything.
-
But they will take a kid who cuts himself. How do you think wilderness will help that? I am curious where your child went after the wilderness.
-
My kid thinks all teens would benefit from Second Nature.
:eek:
-
I would say the short-term success rate for wilderness (improving family dynamics, breaking the pattern of substance abuse, making in-roads on the emotional issues) is extremely high.
Mental health professionals disagree. All data thusfar collected and analyzed shows that WT is basically ineffectual. The lion's share of attendees go right back to what they were doing before they went.
The recidivism rate for WT stands at 75%. So, if we're speaking in facts and not opinions, this modality is effective at changing behavior in only 25% of cases.
-
On 2006-03-22 09:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"But they will take a kid who cuts himself. How do you think wilderness will help that? I am curious where your child went after the wilderness."
My kid came home, finished school and is now in college. I would assume that intensive therapy in the woods where there are no distractions might help a kid determine why he/she is a cutter. My kid was a cutter. The therapy helped.
-
The recidivism rate for WT stands at 75%. So, if we're speaking in facts and not opinions, this modality is effective at changing behavior in only 25% of cases.
"
I'm happy my kid was helped. I wish the numbers of kids helped was higher. I was against the program and am now thankful we sent her there. We could have ended up in a worse program that may have done more harm than good. All I'm trying to say is that SNWP is a good place, it's not abusive and some kids get the help they need. Some kids are never going to respond to any therapy at all. When you have tried everything else available, 25% looks very promising.
-
On 2006-03-22 09:42:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"
I would say the short-term success rate for wilderness (improving family dynamics, breaking the pattern of substance abuse, making in-roads on the emotional issues) is extremely high.
Mental health professionals disagree. All data thusfar collected and analyzed shows that WT is basically ineffectual. The lion's share of attendees go right back to what they were doing before they went.
The recidivism rate for WT stands at 75%. So, if we're speaking in facts and not opinions, this modality is effective at changing behavior in only 25% of cases.
"
Mental health professionals can't agree on a damn thing unless they have a vested interest in it.
So does anyone have statistics for what they think that does work for kids? I just want to compare these statistics to what I keep hearing doesn't work."When did I realize it? Well, one day I was praying and suddenly realized I was talking to myself."
--God
-
One thing I do take issue with is the statement that "some kids can't be reached." It is true, but it's unfair to say that because WILDERNESS didn't help them that they're unreachable.
"
Sorry Eudora, I missed this post. I just find that lots of the people on this forum criticize what didn't help for them and never talk about anything that did in fact help. There are people that will not be happy; not with therapy, not with drug therapy and certainly not with doing absolutely nothing but whining about how miserably they were treated. Parents that love their children (and I do realize that some don't) just want their kids to be happy in their own skin. Parents make mistakes. We could have made a huge one by sending our child to a "boot camp" instead of Second Nature. I agree, we were among the lucky few.
-
On 2006-03-22 09:52:00, odie wrote:
"
On 2006-03-22 09:42:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"
I would say the short-term success rate for wilderness (improving family dynamics, breaking the pattern of substance abuse, making in-roads on the emotional issues) is extremely high.
Mental health professionals disagree. All data thusfar collected and analyzed shows that WT is basically ineffectual. The lion's share of attendees go right back to what they were doing before they went.
The recidivism rate for WT stands at 75%. So, if we're speaking in facts and not opinions, this modality is effective at changing behavior in only 25% of cases.
"
Mental health professionals can't agree on a damn thing unless they have a vested interest in it.
So does anyone have statistics for what they think that does work for kids? I just want to compare these statistics to what I keep hearing doesn't work."When did I realize it? Well, one day I was praying and suddenly realized I was talking to myself."
--God
"
The best success comes from individual therapy with a professional who specializes in adolescents combined with family therapy like Functional Family Therapy.
If this level of care is not enough for your kid, then WT or TBS DEFINITELY CAN'T HELP and your kid requires hospitalization.
-
DJ can you point me to the statistics that support your theory?
I give money for church organs in the hope the organ music will distract the congregation's attention from the rest of the service.
--Andrew Carnegie, Scottish-born American industrialist and philanthropist
-
If this level of care is not enough for your kid, then WT or TBS DEFINITELY CAN'T HELP and your kid requires hospitalization."
That is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. Who made you the authority and why haven't you published a study if you are so sure? Some communities don't have good therapists. There are good therapists at Second Nature. We may have condiered a TBS after Second Nature that was recommended to us but couldn't afford it. Fortunately, enough time in the Wilderness got our kid on the right track. DEFINITELY CAN'T HELP is erroneous. What happened to the 25% it helps that you talked about earlier?
-
[/quote]
The best success comes from individual therapy with a professional who specializes in adolescents combined with family therapy like Functional Family Therapy."
[/quote]
By the way, what do you think they do at Second Nature? Your post sounds like it's right off of the SNWP website. In an office, or in the woods, it's still therapy with LOTS of family therapy going on simutaneously. Do your research instead of pulling this stuff out of your butt.
-
On 2006-03-22 10:26:00, odie wrote:
"DJ can you point me to the statistics that support your theory?I give money for church organs in the hope the organ music will distract the congregation's attention from the rest of the service.
--Andrew Carnegie, Scottish-born American industrialist and philanthropist
"
There were a bunch of studies completed by the Surgeon General's office. This is their conclusion. I'm not sure if they posted the raw statistics or not, but I'm sure that's in the supporting documentation.
You can start here:
http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/m ... /sec7.html (http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/mentalhealth/chapter3/sec7.html)
I think Bazelon also has some good reports. A starting point:
http://www.bazelon.org/issues/children/ ... s/rtcs.htm (http://www.bazelon.org/issues/children/factsheets/rtcs.htm)
Check out these sources and I'll look up a few more for you.
-
On 2006-03-22 10:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The best success comes from individual therapy with a professional who specializes in adolescents combined with family therapy like Functional Family Therapy."
"By the way, what do you think they do at Second Nature? Your post sounds like it's right off of the SNWP website. In an office, or in the woods, it's still therapy with LOTS of family therapy going on simutaneously. Do your research instead of pulling this stuff out of your butt."
This is actually you "pulling it out of your butt." FFT and individual therapy are always done in a COMMUNITY SETTING. What you're failing to realize is that SNWP is an OUT OF HOME PLACEMENT that is not recommended for any kid that doesn't meet the clinical threshold of being dangerous to self or others (about .5% of DIAGNOSED patients).
If your kid cannot be treated in the community, then it is appropriate to place them in a mental hospital.
My point is that if your kid requires out of home placement, then they are, by definition, out of the scope of treatment for WT, period.
Maybe you should do your research before lecturing a career mental health professional. You're on pretty weak ground to be arguing with me.
BTW, how do you have "LOTS of family therapy" with your kid removed from your family? It doesn't jive with reality.
What is your kid's DSM diagnosis for which s/he "required" WT? Who performed the psychometric testing? Who recommended WT?
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-03-22 10:48 ]
-
Thanks DJ, those links should keep me busy for awhile.
The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it. Only if every single citizen feels duty bound to do his share in this defense are constitutional rights secure.
-- Albert Einstein
-
From the SNWP website:
"Why Second Nature Wilderness Program?
Second Nature Wilderness Program is NOT a boot camp for troubled teens. In fact, Second Nature Wilderness Program strongly disputes the enduring efficacy of any boot camp program for troubled youth. Boot camps, by design, are behavior modification paradigms, using coercion and hardship to negatively reinforce appropriate behavior. Second Nature is not a teen boot camp and has no affiliation with any such programs. Second Nature is a wilderness therapy program that provides psychoeducation, sophisticated and individualized therapy, and wilderness realism to highlight choices and consequences for your troubled teen, which aids in guiding students toward long term ambitions."
My kid was gone for 12 weeks. It worked. We continued family therapy. It worked. Getting away from a very unhealthy group of friends, a very dangerous city and an unhappy school setting for 12 weeks did my child a great service. Did we miss each other? YES. Why are you so afraid to say it might have worked? NOBODY is saying it works for all.
-
On 2006-03-22 10:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"From the SNWP website:
"Why Second Nature Wilderness Program?
Second Nature Wilderness Program is NOT a boot camp for troubled teens. In fact, Second Nature Wilderness Program strongly disputes the enduring efficacy of any boot camp program for troubled youth. Boot camps, by design, are behavior modification paradigms, using coercion and hardship to negatively reinforce appropriate behavior. Second Nature is not a teen boot camp and has no affiliation with any such programs. Second Nature is a wilderness therapy program that provides psychoeducation, sophisticated and individualized therapy, and wilderness realism to highlight choices and consequences for your troubled teen, which aids in guiding students toward long term ambitions."
My kid was gone for 12 weeks. It worked. We continued family therapy. It worked. Getting away from a very unhealthy group of friends, a very dangerous city and an unhappy school setting for 12 weeks did my child a great service. Did we miss each other? YES. Why are you so afraid to say it might have worked? NOBODY is saying it works for all.
"
I already said I'm glad that it was a good experience for your kid. That's fantastic. God bless him/her and your family.
The problem I have is that the claims made on the website that you quoted have no basis in fact and there is ABSOLUTELY NO CLINICAL RESEARCH that supports this claim. All you have for "evidence" to support their methodology is their word that it works. I require a higher standard of evidence than that, as does any clinician.
Nothing works for everyone. Nobody said that. All I'm saying is that if worked for you it is reducible to chance or luck.
Again, what was the DIAGNOSIS that required WT? Who made the dx? Based on what testing?
-
What is your kid's DSM diagnosis for which s/he "required" WT? Who performed the psychometric testing? Who recommended WT?"
A community mental hospital recommended Second Nature because the staff psychiatrist thought SNWP was a better choice. A psychologist named Corelli administered the following (in the field at SNWP):
Clinical Interview
Review of Information provided by the family
Adolescent History Form
WAIS-III
WIAT-II
MMPI-A
MACI
Rorschach Inkblot test
Beck Depression Inventory-II
TASC
SASSI-A
If you need me to elaborate on each test I will. Oh, I forgot, you're a MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONAL.
Not that it is your business but our kid suffers from Generalized Anxiety Disorder and the time in the Wilderness was perfect for that.
-
Not that it is your business but our kid suffers from Generalized Anxiety Disorder and the time in the Wilderness was perfect for that.
Whoever told you this is a quack.
-
***All I'm saying is that if worked for you it is reducible to chance or luck.
I'm sure isolation, deprevation, fear, had some to do with it.
-
This is precisely why nobody ever wants to answer you DJ. You act like you care and then hurl insults. If you are so good with teens and families I hope you'll post your office phone number and address so that our family can make good use of a MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONAL such as yourself. A professional does not hurl insults to people in pain.
-
I'm sure isolation, deprevation, fear, had some to do with it."
SHE loved it! And never experienced any of those things. Her absolutely favorite times were the solos. She felt confident that her parents were not deliberately putting her in harm's way. Also, she went willingly to the program and even turned 18 while she was there. So, find someone else to agree with you. People ask for info and all I can do is give them the info I've got.
-
Are you still in pain?
Define psychoeducation
and
wilderness realism
Need you be reminded that you are here by your own choice, and can leave by your own choice?
Anyone who is in 'pain' should be looking for support at ST.
I think you have another agenda.
-
I'm not in pain but lots of others that come here are. People get whacked off this forum daily just for being honest. The cynicism here is abhorent.
-
What is ST?
-
On 2006-03-22 11:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"This is precisely why nobody ever wants to answer you DJ. You act like you care and then hurl insults. If you are so good with teens and families I hope you'll post your office phone number and address so that our family can make good use of a MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONAL such as yourself. A professional does not hurl insults to people in pain."
1. I never insulted anyone, but you have insulted me numerous times.
2. You said you were not in pain and that your problem was solved. Which is it?
3. There is absolutely not a shred of evidence to suggest that WT is an effective tx for GAD. In fact, it is contraindicative to proven tx's.
-
So, are you going to post your location so that we can get some proper treatment? Or, would you mind listing some therapists that you personally would recommend so that another "quack" won't send a kid to WT? We were lucky. We didn't know she had GAD until the test was administered. That wasn't the reason we sent her there. Again, she liked it.
-
On 2006-03-22 11:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'm not in pain but lots of others that come here are. People get whacked off this forum daily just for being honest. The cynicism here is abhorent."
Get whacked off?
Psychoeducation?
Wilderness realism?
-
On 2006-03-22 11:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
"So, are you going to post your location so that we can get some proper treatment? Or, would you mind listing some therapists that you personally would recommend so that another "quack" won't send a kid to WT? We were lucky. We didn't know she had GAD until the test was administered. That wasn't the reason we sent her there. Again, she liked it. "
So, what WAS the reason you "sent" her there (doesn't sound voluntary)?
-
She had dropped out of school, had nowhere to go during the day, the out-patient community mental hospital told all three of us it would be good and she had had very positive experiences at Outward Bound. She thought it sounded better than her other options (working in the bakery, for example.)She wanted to get out of here, get away from the drug/punk scene and hopefully gain some insight. All of that happened. She's now in college very close to home and doing fine.
-
I think you have another agenda."
Everyone here has an agenda.
-
She had dropped out of school, had nowhere to go during the day...
So, basically, she had no diagnosable mental illness that required placement outside the home. Really, she was bored and had no structure. Maybe she was a bit shiftless as well.
She's now in college very close to home and doing fine.
Of course, it's no surprise that she's doing well now, because there wasn't much "wrong" with her in the first place. How do you credit WT for solving a non-existent problem? I mean, if her other choice was going to be getting a job, how do you feel WT was needed?
-
She wanted to get away from the drugs. It had become a dangerous situation. She wasn't addicted but she was certainly using. She asked to go away. She didn't think she could keep herself away from the crowd and disappearing her suited her more than trying to wean herself away or have us do it for her. She had problems, still probably does, but she manages them better now. I can't promise Second Nature is the whole reason she's better but it did give her a good foundation for change.
-
Thank you so much, DJ.
That first link (didn't have time for the second one) was to an excellent study comparing care choices for kids with various problems.
Some of the findings of the study demonstrate why I advise parents who live in communities without a lot of supports, whose kids "just won't go" to therapy, to go to therapy *themselves* to learn more productive strategies for parenting their kids, given their families' special needs.
Okay, what I just said is jargon heavy. What I mean is that when the kid's in trouble the family's in trouble. It doesn't matter whether the kid's trouble was caused by or was the cause of the family trouble. The trouble is there.
Most RTCs claim to repair the family trouble, and most do appear to make an attempt to repair the family trouble. RTCs do not do a good job of repairing family trouble because they separate the child from the family for months or years at a time.
Her doctor says my Katie is oppositional. I'd say without the jargon that means she's stubborn, she's very intelligent about practical life matters, and she's very aware of some real shortcomings I have and that her dad has that sometimes makes her better judgment about her life problems, on the spot, better than what we might advise her to do.
I have a disability, her dad has to work long hours---it's the nature of his field, it's the nature of today's workplace.
This doesn't make our family bad or dysfunctional. What it does do is make it so that it's better for Katie and our family to parent a bit differently from the best strategies for families that aren't us.
This is true whenever the family and the kid(s) "have issues."
It's possible to parent effectively through those issues. I know it because we do it.
Therapy, with a family therapist, for the parents, can be effective even if the kid "just won't go" because the parents can tell the therapist what they see in the kid and what's going on in the home and the therapist can help the parents learn individualized techniques that work with their particular kid.
We negotiate, we help Katie realize how a bad behavior inherently hurts her and will hurt her in her life if she does it when she grows up. She has a special kind of smarts for coping with life. We play to that strength of hers and use it to appeal to her rational self interest.
As a ten year old, she doesn't have the life experience to see on her own how a bad habit will hurt her with friends and authorities, now and when she's grown. Her strength is that when we explain how the behavior is going to come back to bite her in the ass, she understands quite clearly---she just didn't have the experience to think of it herself. We don't have to hit her opposition head on. We appeal to her self interest, help her figure out what's in her own best interests, and work with her to figure out how we can help her out.
Despite her stubborness, Katie has a special strength in liking people, including parents and teachers, and being very eager to please. When we and the school let her know small, specific positives we want to see, and make a habit of praising her when we see them and give her some appreciation for her efforts, we see a lot more of those efforts. No surprise there.
We listen to her when she tries to tell us why she thinks what we or the school are telling her to do will cause her trouble. When she's right, or as likely to be right as we are, we let her try it her way. This means she's more likely to trust us when we insist.
We pick our battles. For things that don't really matter, we give her a lot of freedom. For things that really matter, we enforce limits no matter how much she wants to resist them. Because she knows we'll be reasonable, she gives in easier and doesn't carry resentment around when we insist on a limit.
Some of these strategies wouldn't work too well with a kid with different strengths and weaknesses. Some kids would get an inch and take a mile. Katie sometimes tries to, but we have our ways of dealing with it. Ways that work with her, but wouldn't with every kid.
We're far from perfect as parents. She's not a perfect little angel of a kid who can do no wrong. But our parenting strategies are tailored to her strengths, weaknesses, and needs.
That's hard to do. We could figure it out without family therapy, so far, because Katie's a lot like I was, a lot like my oldest sister was, a lot like my husband was, a lot like his mother was. Her school is supportive. I'm able to stay home and spend more time working with her.
If it quits being enough, we'll use family therapy. If, when she's a teen, we have to do that and she just balks at going, we'll go on our own.
It's like marriage counseling. A lot of times you can save a marriage even if your spouse won't go by you going by yourself and learning better ways to handle your problems.
The studies emphasize how helpful intervention in the home is. Well, even if your community has limited supports, you can get that much intervention by finding and going to a good therapist, yourself. Family therapy just for you is an advanced course in Mom Fu or Dad Fu
There is no substitute for Mom Fu or Dad Fu in helping your kid.
Mom and Dad have the power to change the home environment the kid lives in. Change the home environment to play to the kid's strengths, change the home environment to set the kid up to succeed, change the home environment to pick your battles carefully, and you change the kid.
Set the example of going to therapy yourself, and creating a home environment that sets the kid up to succeed, and you increase the likelihood of the kid going to therapy.
Of course the kid is going to resist going to therapy if the impression he gets of it is that you're sending him to fix him and you're going along to supervise and make sure you can help manipulate him into getting fixed. No matter what their problems are, who the hell wouldn't resist that?
If the kid gets the clear impression that you're going to therapy to fix yourselves, and part of that is fixing your own screwups that drive your kid crazy (as well as learning better Mom Fu), then if you let the kid know that sure you'd like him/her to do better, but that certainly *you* could do better at improving yourselves if the therapist had the kid's point of view, you have the potential of actually getting your kid through the door.
If the therapist is supportive, "Hey, Johnny, I suppose you know that your parents have been coming because some problems you were having helped them notice that they were having a lot of problems, too. Thanks for coming and helping out at making you guys' home work better. First, to help me know how to focus the session, what do you want out of today? Are you here mostly to give input to help me help your parents, or are you looking for some help with something that's going on for you? Okay, let's go with that."
If a resistant kid or spouse shows up, you let them define why they're there that day and you focus on that. You can get in through the back door, but just a little, with having one say to another, "When you do [thing], I feel [thing], which makes it hard for me to do [thing]."
Then there's always the "Okay, so we all agree that [person] needs to get better about doing [thing]. Is there any possibility you could help [person] out with their changes by trying to do/not do [other thing] a bit more?"
If you can get somebody in the door, you can appeal to their self-interest to change some of their behaviors, even if just to support their parents in stopping doing something the kid doesn't like.
Example: The kid doesn't like it that the parents are always freaked out. The parents are freaked out because the kid is coming home drunk and high. Small steps. One of the parents' worries is the kid driving drunk. Can the kid get a ride, or call for a ride, or even call for a cab, and just get the car the next day--rather than driving drunk/high? If the kid does this, will the parents make [defined] progress at not getting freaked out?
It doesn't stop the drug abuse *yet*. One thing it does do is stop *one* of the major risks freaking the parents out. The biggest thing it does is get the therapist's foot in the door by getting the kid to accept the idea of changing a behavior. It ties the change to a change in the parents' behavior that the kid wants---not a bribe, just that the kid's change will reduce stress on the parents and help them do better at fixing *their* problems.
Another example: Promiscuous sex without condoms. Are there some condoms that are less objectionable than others? Can the kid not afford them? Is the kid forgetting to carry them? Can the kid start carrying them and using them? If the kid doesn't know if some condoms are less objectionable, can the kid try out various ones and find out? It's a *small* step. It doesn't get to acceptable behavior in one sudden leap. It's an improvement.
The small step isn't a stopping point. It gets the foot in the door.
Sometimes parents in troubled families make the mistake of expecting all or nothing, or expecting too much at once and giving themselves a figleaf excuse that they don't want all or nothing, or assuming that accepting a small step as a beginning, and facilitating that small step, amounts to condoning portions of the whole set of behavior that are still unacceptable.
Sometimes they think letting up on the pressure on the kid in return for a small step takes away a disproportionate amount of their bargaining position.
Sometimes they can't see the value of a small step in reducing one of the worse risks of a behavior, and the long term value of working a small step at a time in the home instead of all at once in an RTC.
The *habit* of using condoms, or calling for a ride instead of driving impaired, is a durable habit that reduces risk instead of being likely to relapse. Each small step is a durable habit.
Once the kid has some improved impulse control, and has seen improvements in his home life, he's more likely to agree to a major change like sobriety or a severely reduced number of sex partners. Most sexually active people are not going to stop sex completely---it's a powerful, natural, human drive--just because someone else wants them to. Sexual abstinence requires a deeply held personal belief. Trying to dictate someone's personal beliefs doesn't work. However, if the beliefs are there, improved impulse control developed from the small steps might help prior beliefs to re-emerge into abstinence.
Parents can reap huge, long-term improvements in a kid's behavior by going to therapy to fix themselves, learn new parenting techniques, and target their parenting strategies to their kids' strengths.
Sending your kid to an RTC is like buying shoddy, flashy, convenience goods for a small fortune. It looks flashy, it seems like a one-shot fix for all your problems, but its quality sucks and costs way too much money.
Julie
-
I don't know a single person that did not try family therapy and individual therapy before resorting to a Wilderness Program or a TBS. Usually it is a prerequisite of the quality programs. We got a referral from a psychiatrist and a psychologist after months, if not years, of therapy. It was a last resort for us. You guys can't keep making assumptions that sending a kid to WT or TBS is the first thing a parent does the first time their kid smokes a joint or snorts a line. Nobody, not even rich people, enjoy spending that kind of money on something that isn't guaranteed. I hope Katie stays away from abusive boys/men, drugs, and unhealthy sexual practices because when that shit starts to fly all a good parent wants to do is hide them from the danger.
-
Gosh, that was a lot more than I meant to say at once.
DJ, you appear to be a highly competent professional with your head screwed on straight.
If there's not much wrong with your kid and she just wants to get away from bad friends for awhile, there are all kinds of places to go that aren't geared towards the "troubled."
If she wanted to get away in the great outdoors, and you wanted the testing, it probably would have been a better choice to get a referral from your insurance company to professionals to get it. The closest professionals they could find might be a bit of a drive away, but they'd be qualified and have no conflict of interest.
Then, after the testing--we had it done for our daughter, it's not that big a deal---there are all sorts of outdoorsy vacation packages, some with tour groups, that provide the same thing for less money. They also do it without adding in therapies that may do more harm than good.
Here's a quick example which gives a broad range of experience, with a tour group, that I found in just one quick Google.
http://www.footloose.com/tours/fbw.html (http://www.footloose.com/tours/fbw.html)
I'm sure tour group vacations have a wide variety of packages and prices.
Second Nature does tout itself as a treatment center for a whole laundry list of mental health problems:
http://www.snwp.com/pages.asp?id=10 (http://www.snwp.com/pages.asp?id=10)
DJ's criticisms are therefore right on point.
Julie
-
My kid loved the solos, too. Everything in the program was designed to focus these kids on what was going on inside. Outside distractions were removed. It is not the kind of program that can be replicated by your community therapist. All of the at-home therapy has already failed if a family is considering a wilderness program. 2N is the best of the best- and there are many fine wilderness programs out there.
-
Julie- you are so off base it is laughable. Go back to your book.
-
My kid had/has problems. Maybe not bad enough to live at a RTC for years but she was helped concerning her drug use and her unhealthy choices in just about every arena of her life. She didn't want to go back to an "Outward Bound" program because she reports that her first drug use occurred there! I don't and she doesn't regret the decision to go to Second Nature. By the way, there are no referral fees and our insurance company paid for a big portion of the cost.
-
Then, after the testing--we had it done for our daughter, it's not that big a deal---there are all sorts of outdoorsy vacation packages, some with tour groups, that provide the same thing for less money.
You get what you pay for. I'd rather have my kid with Psychologists and MSW's and pay more than risk the possible deviant behaviour of low-paid chaperones.
-
Oh, and by the way, Julie, those other programs you refer to ask questions like:
1) Has your child ever been in therapy?
2) Has your child ever been suspended or expelled from school?
3) Does your child have a diagnosis from a licensed therapist?
4) Please sign this release form so that we may get information from his/her therapist pertinent to your child's ability to travel with us.
The bottom line is if the child has been suspended, has an eating disorder, ever was a cutter (even a recovered cutter) or has a drug abuse history THEY WILL NOT accept them.
-
On 2006-03-22 09:42:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
The recidivism rate for WT stands at 75%. So, if we're speaking in facts and not opinions, this modality is effective at changing behavior in only 25% of cases.
Controls? I'm guessing it's about the same as AA's own stated 5% "success rate", which is just slightly lower than controls who seek and receive no formal intervention whatever.so long as the universe had a beginning, we could suppose it had a creator. But if the universe is completely self-contained, having no boundary or edge, it would neither be created nor destroyed it would simply be. What place, then, for a creator?
--stephen Hawking, English scientist
-
On 2006-03-22 09:52:00, odie wrote:
Mental health professionals can't agree on a damn thing unless they have a vested interest in it.
So does anyone have statistics for what they think that does work for kids? I just want to compare these statistics to what I keep hearing doesn't work.
Growing up helps. Learning from mistakes helps. Having real, practical opportunities to attain success at love, self sufficiency, personally rewarding career or vocation. Knowing that you can acquire this kind of success and how to do it. Those things help trememdously.
Stealing your kid's thunder by strong arming into accepting your ideas about acceptable risk and what is and is not a worthy objective or friend can be most unhelpful. On the other hand, if 2N habitually convinces parents to quit fuckin' with their nearly grown kids, that's a service in itself. But I rather suspect they don't. They probably work pretty hard at getting the parents on game w/ TBS or some other very expensive long term plan.
Any Irishman who doubts the reality of selective enforcement ought to take just a moment to comtemplate the etymology of the term "paddy waggon".
--Antigen
-
Stealing your kid's thunder by strong arming into accepting your ideas about acceptable risk and what is and is not a worthy objective or friend can be most unhelpful."
Eudora, please. STD's, unwanted pregnancy and death at the hands of drug dealers are not acceptable. Kids aren't sent off to WT because of their clothing choices. A good parent better pick their batles and strong arm their ideas regarding deadly behaviours. And, if that doesn't work, time away from it all and breaking the cycle may be the answer.
-
On 2006-03-22 11:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
A professional does not hurl insults to people in pain.
Why would your kid's therapist be in pain?I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard was not what I meant.
---Richard Nixon
-
DJ is not my kid's therapist but I do believe he is in pain.
-
You guys can't keep making assumptions that sending a kid to WT or TBS is the first thing a parent does the first time their kid smokes a joint or snorts a line.
I've only gone by what you said. I haven't assumed anything really. I've read what you wrote and commented on what you said.
In any case, I think you are quick to insult others due to what you perceive to be an attack on you when people ask questions and ask you to justify what you say with facts. It's a touchy subject and people don't like to go into details. I understand that to an extent.
I have said it before that I'm glad that your kid is doing better. Who could be upset with a happy, functioning child?
What I object to is that places that use these types of "programs" don't tell the truth about their approach to "treatment." Now. I'm not saying that your program has done this - I wouldn't know. What I do know, however, is that they advertise that they can treat various psychological/social disorders. They advertise that they are successful, yet there is not a single shred of evidence to support this claim.
I can say this universally about all of these programs simply because I stay current on the research being conducted and there is not a single, solitary clinical trial for "wilderness programs" that indicates that they can successfully treat anything whatsoever. Current research indicates that these programs are at best ineffective and at worst damaging.
Mental health treatment must always be conducted under the least restrictive conditions possible. This is a general rule of the discipline. Sending a child to one of these programs against their will is counterintuitive the "least restrictive" philosophy.
Their going voluntarily is rare and is usually coerced or in some cases the children are "kidnapped" from their beds in the middle of the night by paid "escorts" who handcuff your kid and drag him/her from the house in handcuffs, against their will, to be forcibly transported to the program - for a fee, of course.
My point about this has been that if your kid required out of home placement (dangerous to self or others - well below 1% of all cases) then he/she is in need of a level of care that a WP simply cannot deliver.
I'm not saying that there aren't some people in this industry who have good intentions and are trying to help kids.
What I'm saying is that these places, based on the least restrictive care model, are accepting children whose placement there is unwarranted (many) or even dangerous (very few). I'm saying that they're in business to sell a product - like every business sells a product to make profit - and the product they're selling isn't therapy for the kids, it's hope for the parents and it's wrong.
-
On 2006-03-22 12:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
If there's not much wrong with your kid and she just wants to get away from bad friends for awhile, there are all kinds of places to go that aren't geared towards the "troubled."
Julie
That's my thought as well. As an adult, reading descriptions of GAD, yup! That was me! Scared of everything and everybody and well trained to use offense as my first, best and most reliable defense. But how did I get that way? That's easy. My fucked up mother had been trying every crazy assed pop psyche snake oil to hit the market in an attempt to fix her horribly dysfuncional kids, all 6 or us, for her entire career as a parent.
That kept up until she found Nervana as a devout follower of Art Barker. That's about enough to make any kid anxious, don't you think?
Can you imagine if, instead of looking for treatment for your disordered kid, you had just assumed that she was alright and just needed a break from all of your "help"?
I condemn false prophets, I condemn the effort to take away the power of rational decision, to drain people of their free will--and a hell of a lot of money in the bargain. Religions vary in their degree of idiocy, but I reject them all. For most people, religion is nothing more than a substitute for a malfunctioning brain.
--Gene Roddenberry, Creator of Star Trek
-
On 2006-03-22 13:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
You get what you pay for. I'd rather have my kid with Psychologists and MSW's and pay more than risk the possible deviant behaviour of low-paid chaperones. "
The trouble is there is no standardized test for good intentions and real heart. Certification boards can test aptitude and manipulating the mind of another. But they can't test intent.
So, all things considered, I'd rather have a kid of mine on a more level playing field w/ a rank ameture than a certified professional. Actually, I'd never send my kid out to any sort of away program or vacation package w/o at least one well trusted friend or family member. That would just be stupid. Never leave home w/o an advocate and wittness, not to mention someone you can trust for a reality check.Excepting drug activity for personal use or free
distribution from the sweep of the CSA would discourage the consumption of
lawful controlled substances.
acting US Solicitor General, Paul Clement; Ashcroft v. Raich
-
On 2006-03-22 13:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Stealing your kid's thunder by strong arming into accepting your ideas about acceptable risk and what is and is not a worthy objective or friend can be most unhelpful."
Eudora, please. STD's, unwanted pregnancy and death at the hands of drug dealers are not acceptable. Kids aren't sent off to WT because of their clothing choices. A good parent better pick their batles and strong arm their ideas regarding deadly behaviours. And, if that doesn't work, time away from it all and breaking the cycle may be the answer."
Most STDs are curable, but there are very few kids who can't be persuaded to use condoms if they get to try out a few brands.
Unwanted pregnancy has solutions. Adoption is one of them.
Drug dealers don't kill paying customers who aren't rival dealers.
It sucks getting an STD, unwanted pregnancy is bad, drug abuse is a bad thing.
Still, get your concerns in proportion to the risks. None of those merits locking a kid up in what amounts to a private prison.
Programs are like Mai Lai. "We had to destroy the village in order to save it."
There are important life lessons to learn in adolescence that you can learn out in real life, even if you're behaving in those ways, that you can't learn in an institution.
Institutionalizing a kid for the last precious years of childhood, where the kid learns to form his own experiences and choices and separate from his parents, does enormous, irreparable harm to the kid's development processes.
If the kid graduates, the longer they stay in the Program in their head, the longer crucial life lessons are deferred, the longer the adult stays emotionally a kid under all the residue of the Program's coercive persuasion.
Julie
-
"Institutionalizing a kid for the last precious years of childhood,"
First of all, sending a kid to a wilderness program is not institutionalizing him. These programs are fairly short-term.
Ah, yes, those precious years of childhood. How precious it is to have your kid being violent towards you and other family members, destroying cars and other family possessions, getting in trouble with the law, getting kicked out of school, driving under the influence, selling drugs and/or alcohol..... How PRECIOUS!!
Every teen could benefit from a wilderness program. Most families can't afford them. The programs are expensive to staff properly and the equipment and safety backups are costly. 2N does a great job of giving you more than your money's worth. What the kids object to is being removed from their druggie friends, their nice stereo systems and cars, their cell phones, their junk food and their nice clothes. Once they get over that, they begin to see what is really going on in their lives. At the same time, the parents are very engaged in the process. There is a LOT of family therapy going on which includes reading, long sessions with the wilderness therapist and letters back and forth to the kid.
-
Every teen could benefit from a wilderness program.
It's this kind of extreme thinking that really bothers me.
This person is saying that 100% of teenagers would benefit from a long-term (more than 30 days) out of home mental health placement.
This logic is disturbing for a few reasons. The most obvious one, of course, is that all teens would benefit being institutionalized (they can't leave - but they're outside instead of in buildings) in such a manner. This is nonsensical.
-
[/quote]
Most STDs are curable, but there are very few kids who can't be persuaded to use condoms if they get to try out a few brands.
Hah! How old is Katie? Has she reached the age where she won't listen to ANYTHING you have to say? Good luck. Are you going to take her to the Walgreens to pick out some pretty pink condoms when she's 13? You are in for the ride of you life. Your naivety and arrogance astounds me.
-
What is Katie doing while you're writng these long, drawn out posts about everyone else's failures?
-
I think the perfect Katie is somewhere between 3 and 7. I hope we are all around when the shit hits the fan in the Katie/Julie household. That poor kid doesn't stand a chance.
-
On 2006-03-22 13:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
Eudora, please. STD's, unwanted pregnancy and death at the hands of drug dealers are not acceptable. Kids aren't sent off to WT because of their clothing choices. A good parent better pick their batles and strong arm their ideas regarding deadly behaviours. And, if that doesn't work, time away from it all and breaking the cycle may be the answer."
A lifetime of PTSD
Permanent damage to what is supposed to be that sacred, unbreachable parent/child trust bond
Having your mind scrambled to the point where your very identity and perceptions are forever changed.
Those are just some of the risks you run sending your kid off to a be held incommunicado by a bunch of people who are, by training, most adept at manipulating the minds of others.
Those are not acceptable risks either. And I would hold that these things are, by far and away, more likely to happen to a kid who gets shipped off to some 'troubled teen' service company than any of your dire predictions are likely to happen to a kid who does not.
Has it ever occured to any of you people to have faith in your own flesh and blood children to grow up and learn to manage these risks of life on this planet? I mean, the human race, in it's present form, has been banging along now for some tens or hundreds of thousands of years prior to Gestault and Synanon. How'd we manage that? Really. How in the world has the human race survived at all without the troubled parent industry to fix us before we could get out there and take any risk?
Revelation indeed had no weight with me.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor
-
On 2006-03-22 15:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I think the perfect Katie is somewhere between 3 and 7. I hope we are all around when the shit hits the fan in the Katie/Julie household. That poor kid doesn't stand a chance."
Why are you so nasty? You're such a judgemental freak it's no wonder your family dynamics are so skewed.
You've got problems.
-
12 WEEKS out of 20 years! Hardly shirking my parental duties. She's had plently of time post WT to grow up. She wanted to go! She has no PTSD. I'm sorry Eudora, but saving her from her physically abusive boyfriend and a burgeoning cocaine habit (or the PTSD from it)was more important to me than sitting back and doing nothing. That would have been the wrong thing to do. Talk about shirking your parental duties!
-
Ok, DJ you make some valid points. I realize that my kid's success may be an anomaly. Julie, I think, has her heart in the right place but is blinded by arrogance and an "it won't happen to me" mentality. One anon obviously hates Julie and is cynical. Another anon likes the program and occasionally weighs in to keep this thread balanced. Eudora obviously has had a bad experience and I'm sorry for her. But, my last word is that Second Nature Wilderness Program is a good place with a safe record, a talented, educated staff and lots of former parents and students that believe in it. That's where this started and that where I'm signing off. I'm not going to beat this dead horse. Though it was fun realizing yet one more time that I did the right thing and wasn't a wasted afternoon defending my decision and the program.
-
Oh, one more thing Eudora. My brother died when he was 17 as my parents sat back and waited for him to grow up. I was not going to let history repeat itself with trying something different. My father was of the "boys will be boys" school of thought. Guess what? We (all of my surviving brothers and sisters) have PTSD from our parents watching him die.
-
On 2006-03-22 14:06:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"You guys can't keep making assumptions that sending a kid to WT or TBS is the first thing a parent does the first time their kid smokes a joint or snorts a line.
I've only gone by what you said. I haven't assumed anything really. I've read what you wrote and commented on what you said.
In any case, I think you are quick to insult others due to what you perceive to be an attack on you when people ask questions and ask you to justify what you say with facts. It's a touchy subject and people don't like to go into details. I understand that to an extent.
I have said it before that I'm glad that your kid is doing better. Who could be upset with a happy, functioning child?
What I object to is that places that use these types of "programs" don't tell the truth about their approach to "treatment." Now. I'm not saying that your program has done this - I wouldn't know. What I do know, however, is that they advertise that they can treat various psychological/social disorders. They advertise that they are successful, yet there is not a single shred of evidence to support this claim.
I can say this universally about all of these programs simply because I stay current on the research being conducted and there is not a single, solitary clinical trial for "wilderness programs" that indicates that they can successfully treat anything whatsoever. Current research indicates that these programs are at best ineffective and at worst damaging.
Mental health treatment must always be conducted under the least restrictive conditions possible. This is a general rule of the discipline. Sending a child to one of these programs against their will is counterintuitive the "least restrictive" philosophy.
Their going voluntarily is rare and is usually coerced or in some cases the children are "kidnapped" from their beds in the middle of the night by paid "escorts" who handcuff your kid and drag him/her from the house in handcuffs, against their will, to be forcibly transported to the program - for a fee, of course.
My point about this has been that if your kid required out of home placement (dangerous to self or others - well below 1% of all cases) then he/she is in need of a level of care that a WP simply cannot deliver.
I'm not saying that there aren't some people in this industry who have good intentions and are trying to help kids.
What I'm saying is that these places, based on the least restrictive care model, are accepting children whose placement there is unwarranted (many) or even dangerous (very few). I'm saying that they're in business to sell a product - like every business sells a product to make profit - and the product they're selling isn't therapy for the kids, it's hope for the parents and it's wrong.
"
DJ, I dont totally agree, but that was a well thought out balanced argument, void of any anger. I agree with anon, You made some valid viewpoints.
-
On 2006-03-22 15:45:00, TheWho wrote:
DJ, I dont totally agree, but that was a well thought out balanced argument, void of any anger. I agree with anon, You made some valid viewpoints. "
Well slap me silly, we agree! Is there an eclipse tonight or something? :em:
DJ. Once again, DJ, I am awed by your ability to elevate any discussion. If I ever find the way to turn Fornits into obscene profitability, you'll be my first ever paid moderator on damned near any topic you may choose. You can take that and three fity to the nearest Starbucks! LOL
Couple of questions for you:
"
On 2006-03-22 14:06:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
Mental health treatment must always be conducted under the least restrictive conditions possible. This is a general rule of the discipline.
Where can I find some good solid hostorical context for that? Seriously. I hold a pretty strong fidelity to the idea because it fits well w/ my own personal experience and philosophy. But how did the psyche profession/industries come around to this conclusion?
Their going voluntarily is rare and is usually coerced or in some cases the children are "kidnapped" from their beds in the middle of the night by paid "escorts" who handcuff your kid and drag him/her from the house in handcuffs, against their will, to be forcibly transported to the program - for a fee, of course.
My point about this has been that if your kid required out of home placement (dangerous to self or others - well below 1% of all cases) then he/she is in need of a level of care that a WP simply cannot deliver.
What are the expected and less common effects of this sort of experience? We've talked to death the perceived risks of not sending your kid off. And everyone in this thread agrees, I think, that Randal Hinton or Bay County Boot Camp type "therapy" is unkosher.
But what about the impact of just being a captive? In the Stanford Prison Experiment, they took some pains to realistically simulate the experience of becoming a prisoner. Even though the participants, both guards and inmates, were college student volunteers and fully aware that they were just playing a role in an experiment, they had to pull the plug on the project after just a couple of weeks due to the way it was effecting some of the subjects and even the clinical staff observers.
Just how desperate do you have to be to think this is an acceptable risk? I think the parents just don't know the risk. How could they? Most of them have never been arrested, held captive or subject to the constant stress of communal life in an authoritarian TC setting. How could they know?
When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor
-
DJ has a way with elevating any discussion and Eudora has a way with stopping them cold with absolutely nothing new to offer.
-
your elevator must go one way- DOWN
-
On 2006-03-22 15:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I think the perfect Katie is somewhere between 3 and 7. I hope we are all around when the shit hits the fan in the Katie/Julie household. That poor kid doesn't stand a chance."
Wow. Three idiots or one? Can't hardly tell.
I've mentioned before that Katie is ten. I've mentioned before that I'm a professional writer and can type these posts as fast as I could say them to your face.
With everything you say, you guys convince me more that not only don't you understand children, you just don't understand *people* very well.
Everything I want to say from here, Dale Carnegie said better in _How to Win Friends and Influence People_.
You guys' biggest problem as parents is that you never figured out kids are just people.
My friends have teenage kids. We talk. They agree with me on this, not you. They don't parent exactly like I would, obviously, because their kids are different people from my kid. They're good parents because they see their kids as people, not as some mythical subhuman entity called a "teenager."
Free clue. My friends with teenage kids think you Program Parents are walking nightmares.
Julie
-
So, have you decided if Katie will prefer pink or purple condoms?
-
I've not read your life history so I didn't know how old Katie is. Good luck.
-
< My friends with teenage kids think you Program Parents are walking nightmares.
Julie"
Have the sons of your friends beaten their mothers or young daughters while they were hopped up on whatever drug they could get their hands on? Until you've been there, it's hard to say what you would do. A walking nightmare did that in our home. It was our son. Imagine how you would feel if Katie had an older brother and beat you both bloody. It changes lives and perspectives.
-
On 2006-03-22 15:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Ok, DJ you make some valid points. I realize that my kid's success may be an anomaly. Julie, I think, has her heart in the right place but is blinded by arrogance and an "it won't happen to me" mentality. One anon obviously hates Julie and is cynical. Another anon likes the program and occasionally weighs in to keep this thread balanced. Eudora obviously has had a bad experience and I'm sorry for her. But, my last word is that Second Nature Wilderness Program is a good place with a safe record, a talented, educated staff and lots of former parents and students that believe in it. That's where this started and that where I'm signing off. I'm not going to beat this dead horse. Though it was fun realizing yet one more time that I did the right thing and wasn't a wasted afternoon defending my decision and the program. "
Don't mistake annoyance for arrogance.
My kid will go through her teenage years just like everybody else does. They'll be rough. Adolescence is a tough life stage, whether you're the teen or the parent. Adolescence is just plain hard.
Programs are a bad "solution" to a tough life stage that can't be "solved" in the first place---it can only be navigated.
Teenagers "happen" to parents in the same way that two year olds do, and for the same reason.
Arrogant? I've just been through enough tough shit in life, and have enough respect and admiration for my husband, and have enough respect for our extended family, that I'm confident we'll cope. People do, you know.
You guys sound like divorcees predicting doom on the eve of every wedding. That's for the same old reasons, too. The predictions of doom have a lot more to do with the acrimony of the predicter's divorce than with the compatibility prospects of the couple.
I love it when people hear confidence that someone can cope and take it as naivete or presume they're living the life of Reilly and have not a care in the world. You never know what burdens the other guy is carrying.
I'm not saying I'm better than the other parents in my community in my ability to cope. Parents cope. Most well enough, some very badly. I'm not perfect, but I'm about average for my community---we're blessed with a lot of good parents (involved, see that the homework is done, go to conferences, apply responsible discipline and don't think our kids are perfect).
I'm not saying Program Parents have no burdens to carry. Of course they do. They just tend to assume they're the only ones with heavy burdens to carry. Sure Program Parents have burdens--Programs are a very bad choice about how to deal with those burdens. I'd say analogous to the bad choice to self-medicate with anything from excessive alcohol to ice, depending on the Program.
I don't object to *care*---I'm all in favor of quality, responsible mental health care (hey, we use it.)---I just object to *bad* care that costs an arm and a leg.
Julie
-
Free clue. My friends with teenage kids think you Program Parents are walking nightmares.
Julie"
Let me guess....your friends must be college professors.
-
On 2006-03-22 21:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
< My friends with teenage kids think you Program Parents are walking nightmares.
Julie"
Have the sons of your friends beaten their mothers or young daughters while they were hopped up on whatever drug they could get their hands on? Until you've been there, it's hard to say what you would do. A walking nightmare did that in our home. It was our son. Imagine how you would feel if Katie had an older brother and beat you both bloody. It changes lives and perspectives."
Jesus Christ. Ditto what I just said in the WWASP forum to a similar comment:
Out of control, preatory, violent crimes.
Sounds like an admission that the facility is a middle-class, private-pay prison?
If what you're saying is true, might Corey or the other boy belong in jail? Rather than incarcerated with other kids, some of whom have been refered to as spoiled brats, who weren't violent, predatory, out of control?
Is that why some of these places are run like Oz? Because they're housing violent, predatory, juvenile criminals.
Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 250#182977 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=10304&forum=44&start=250#182977)
Ya know, when you're trying to defend programs employing uncredential staff, the argument goes that the kids are not violent or seriously 'mentally ill'.
When you are deperately attempting to justify putting your kid away, they are violent, predatory criminals that need to be incarcerated.
It's obvious you didn't know how to 'help' your violent kid. So, you're solution was to board him with kids who are flunking algebra or have partners/ friends their parents don't approve of?
-
no, just trying to find out how much Julie will take before she takes action.
-
It's really fun to fuck with all of you.
-
Well, thank you all for reading my posts with an open mind. Sometimes that's really difficult to do.
You can take that and three fity to the nearest Starbucks!
Here in NY we phrase this "That and a dollar-fifty will get you on the A train."
I think this discussion has gone very well, if you factor in for the anon troll baiting and insulting other posters. I've said it many times before - it's a sickness...
-
On 2006-03-22 21:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
< My friends with teenage kids think you Program Parents are walking nightmares.
Julie"
Have the sons of your friends beaten their mothers or young daughters while they were hopped up on whatever drug they could get their hands on? Until you've been there, it's hard to say what you would do. A walking nightmare did that in our home. It was our son. Imagine how you would feel if Katie had an older brother and beat you both bloody. It changes lives and perspectives."
You assume you're the only ones with problems and everybody who doesn't think like you must have and must have always had life experiences that were peachy fuzzy keen.
I've survived domestic abuse--abusive boyfriend. He was a real psycho.
What you do when you have a kid that beats you is you call the police and press charges.
They don't go to a private juvie jail, they go to the real one. They experience real life. Real life teaches.
Kids have more rights in real juvie jail than in private prison, but they can't kid themselves that they're just somewhere their parents sent them.
I've always said that some kids are criminal and should go to real juvie jail, some kids are severely, dangerously, mentally ill and need to be emergency hospitalized before outpatient treatment, some kids are addicted and need rehab.
Beating family is criminal. It doesn't matter whether he was high or not, the beating is the thing.
There are only two reasons to pay and arm and a leg for private jail if your kid is violently criminal. Either you think real juvie jail is too soft, or you think it's too harsh. Either you're setting yourself up as a wrathful God to punish your kid's crime more severely than the system would, or you're trying to rescue him again/still---or you're all mixed up and it's a scrambled up bit of both.
If your kid commits a serious crime, like battering family members, you don't get between the kid and the system. Battering family members I wouldn't hire the kid an attorney, but would expect the court to appoint one. For anything external, I'd hire the kid an attorney---but only since/if my being able to afford one might keep the kid from having a public defender appointed by the court. Real life is that every accused is entitled to competent legal representation.
(In real life, outside of Hollywood, lawyers for guilty clients intercede with the system to make sure the punishment the guilty client gets is just and appropriate. Sometimes the system screws up, but far more often it approximately works--as well as anything could.)
"Tough love" exit plans aren't avoiding rescuing, they're adding imposed consequences on top of natural ones and evading genuine personal responsibilities that are real even if they aren't on the law books.
However, there is real rescuing and over-punitive behavior out there. Sending a kid to a private prison instead of letting them take the natural consequences at the real one is motivated by rescuing, over-punitiveness, or a dysfunctional mix of both.
Some people come out of juvie or other jail the same as they went in--criminal. Others come out and decide they really don't want to do stuff to go back.
Recidivism rates aren't that high because juvie jail "doesn't work." Recidivism rates are that high because most of the kids or adults who get sent to prison are irretrievably broken, and some are not. The only way to find out who is which is to let the system work itself out.
Trying to keep your kid from doing wrong is part of the job.
Getting between your kid and life when he does screw up, before he starts to genuinely change, is usually (not always) a bad idea.
There's a difference between functional supportiveness and the dysfunctional entanglement of martyrdom, over-punitiveness, and rescuing.
Using a Program is prima facie evidence of dysfunctionality. It doesn't *work*. A parent can be rescuing and over-controlling at the same time. One of the hallmarks of dysfunctional families is a weird mix of same.
When their kid commits violent, criminal acts, normal, functional parents let go (beyond providing a competent lawyer if the courts won't appoint one) and let the chips fall.
When domestic battering is going on that leaves clear marks (as beating anyone bloody does), functional people call the police.
I've been abused in a relationship, I know it's not easy, but if you can move yourself to send your kid to private prison, you can move yourself to call the cops and press charges.
*I* didn't call the cops because I couldn't prove anything. I didn't tell my parents because they were in la-la land and would have triggered the psycho to kill me without doing anything effective to prevent it. I got myself out of the situation the first moment I could do so without getting murdered.
In a number of ways, my parents weren't grown ups and I had to be the grown up for myself as a teen. They were human and fallible, but in this case their particular foibles would have cost me my life---as it almost did in another way/situation.
They were mostly good parents, but in these cases their human imperfections just happened to create a dangerous situation---more dangerous than staying in the relationship temporarily and biding my time.
As soon as I safely could, I left. When he came to my parents' house after that while I was home for a visit, I could and did call the police to give him a criminal trespass warning. I had changed the situation and that warning would have enabled me to have him prosecuted if he'd violated it--I had taken other steps to protect my life by then.
I was emotionally entangled with this psychotic, violent boy, but as soon as I could I took the necessary steps to stop the abuse anyway.
You had plenty of evidence to call the cops and get him prosecuted and convicted.
If the cops refused to arrest (for drugged up and battering, not a chance), or the DA refused to prosecute the case, then and only then I would have used a private prison.
If you called the cops repeatedly and tried to press charges, then I can't fault you for getting him out of your home whatever legal way you could. In that case, I'd fault your local law enforcement system, not you.
Most parents have *not* gone to those lengths before using a Program.
Julie
-
On 2006-03-22 21:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It's really fun to fuck with all of you."
I know people like you. I kick them off a system I moderate all the time. To a man, their various behavior before and during the process demonstrates that they're actively mentally unbalanced.
I want you to up your dose.
Julie
-
Disclaimer: Wrt the foregoing: *In my opinion* they're unbalanced, and so are you.
Julie
-
Dang, Ginger, your substitution mutilated that sentence.
*In my opinion*, the troll _n_e_e_d_s_ to up his dose.
Julie
-
DJ, so what's the answer? What did they tell you in school about why you must use the least restrictive means?
There is nothing on earth intended for innocent people so horrible as a school. To begin with, it is a prison. But it is in some respects more cruel than a prison. In a prison, for instance, you are not forced to read books written by the wardens...School was to me a sentence of penal servitude.
--George Bernard Shaw
-
Julie, could you be any more wordy and nonsensical?
-
On 2006-03-23 09:13:00, Eudora wrote:
"DJ, so what's the answer? What did they tell you in school about why you must use the least restrictive means?
There is nothing on earth intended for innocent people so horrible as a school. To begin with, it is a prison. But it is in some respects more cruel than a prison. In a prison, for instance, you are not forced to read books written by the wardens...School was to me a sentence of penal servitude.
--George Bernard Shaw
"
It goes back to the basic underlying theme that all treatment is voluntary (except in extreme cases, as I said before - less than 1% of all cases). In order to have voluntary treatment, one must be in the least restrictive environment and free from coercion. It's really that simple.
It is also precisely why "programs" don't work. By definition, there is coercion and a restricted environment. Let me reiterate: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FORCED TREATMENT. It does not, and cannot work.
This premise also underpins the moral/professional compass of program workers. Programs espouse logic that contradicts the basic tenets of therapy, therefore any practitioner that works in these systems, by definition once more, has acted contrary to their professional oath. Again, it's that simple.
-
Karen, no, it goes back waaaayyy before that. Here's the first Carey post I know of.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... art=0#8549 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=1673&forum=9&start=0#8549)
Carey
Frequent poster
Joined: 2003-01-18
There may be some anon before that, but I can't tell. I don't remember any mention of the hard drive sale till well into late `03.We must create an atmosphere where the crooked cop fears the honest cop, and not the other way around.
Frank Serpico
-
Here's one earlier reference from way before the battle ensued:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#20510 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3042&forum=9&start=0#20510)He, who has nothing, and who himself belongs to another, must be defended by him, whose property he is, and needs no arms. But he, who thinks he is his own master, and has what he can call his own, ought to have arms to defend himself, and what he possesses; else he lives precariously, and at discretion.
James Burgh 1774
-
::bump::
-
"Even the kids that don't make it at TBS liked SNWP"
That is absolutely correct. Many kids keep in touch with their therapists from 2N and have really good feelings about it. It is a class operation.
Okay, i'm jumping in here late, but... No. It's not. It's an abusive shithole like any other, and it played at least as much part as the rest in severely screwing me up. k? k.
Second Nature Wilderness Program is NOT a boot camp for troubled teens. In fact, Second Nature Wilderness Program strongly disputes the enduring efficacy of any boot camp program for troubled youth. Boot camps, by design, are behavior modification paradigms, using coercion and hardship to negatively reinforce appropriate behavior. Second Nature is not a teen boot camp and has no affiliation with any such programs. Second Nature is a wilderness therapy program that provides psychoeducation, sophisticated and individualized therapy, and wilderness realism to highlight choices and consequences for your troubled teen, which aids in guiding students toward long term ambitions.
http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Bullshit (http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Bullshit)
-
"Even the kids that don't make it at TBS liked SNWP"
That is absolutely correct. Many kids keep in touch with their therapists from 2N and have really good feelings about it. It is a class operation.
Okay, i'm jumping in here late, but... No. It's not. It's an abusive shithole like any other, and it played at least as much part as the rest in severely screwing me up. k? k.
Second Nature Wilderness Program is NOT a boot camp for troubled teens. In fact, Second Nature Wilderness Program strongly disputes the enduring efficacy of any boot camp program for troubled youth. Boot camps, by design, are behavior modification paradigms, using coercion and hardship to negatively reinforce appropriate behavior. Second Nature is not a teen boot camp and has no affiliation with any such programs. Second Nature is a wilderness therapy program that provides psychoeducation, sophisticated and individualized therapy, and wilderness realism to highlight choices and consequences for your troubled teen, which aids in guiding students toward long term ambitions.
http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Bullshit (http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Bullshit)
Seems: One persons shit hole is another person’s oasis.
...
-
I'll yield that. Everything, you could argue, is perception - maybe in some bizarre twist of fate, a starving Ethiopian kid ended up in Second Nature and was willing to take bad food and twisted manipulations over none and rape?
Hey... it's a thought >.>
-
My daughter went to SNWP Georgia. She was there for 12 weeks. I went through the transition program at the end of her stay. Her therapist was really good. We had weekly hour phone conferences with the therapist. My daughter still keeps in contact with the staff and her therapist from time to time. My daughter has nothing but good things to say about the program and thinks it did her a world of good. She felt strong, introspective and accomplished at the end. We were all pleased with it.
Fucking press release bullshit.
Nobody talks like that. Nobody stays in touch with people from a program.
Nobody says "I'm strong introspective and accomplished".
What the FUCK? :rofl:
-
My daughter went to SNWP Georgia. She was there for 12 weeks. I went through the transition program at the end of her stay. Her therapist was really good. We had weekly hour phone conferences with the therapist. My daughter still keeps in contact with the staff and her therapist from time to time. My daughter has nothing but good things to say about the program and thinks it did her a world of good. She felt strong, introspective and accomplished at the end. We were all pleased with it.
Fucking press release bullshit.
Nobody talks like that. Nobody stays in touch with people from a program.
Nobody says "I'm strong introspective and accomplished".
What the FUCK? :rofl:
Niles, it is because you are too far removed from the families and kids that attend and have never attended yourself and therefore cannot relate. That is almost exactly what my daughter experienced and the rest of the kids in her group seemed to be doing well when they left also.
The staff at SUWS were really good people and my daughter talks fondly of them to this day and wonders how they are doing and even mentions she would like to contact them someday to let them know how well she is doing and to see how they are.
The lack of understanding on your part shows first that you are not a parent and secondly that you have never had any experience with the industry. The reaction and experience that you just read is the norm, whether you want to believe it or not. Most of the BS you read on fornits are kids who had a hard time or who never should have attended in the first place. Anyone can throw a story up of how they were abused or hurt by the experience but these are isolated cases at best and don’t reflect the good that wilderness programs do for families.
...
-
Who is correct on this. My kid did keep in touch with the wilderness therapist and staff and valued the experience. Second Nature and SUWS are successful, valued programs and most (not all, but most) kids come out with positive feelings about the program and the staff.
-
They claim that the place is not for troubled teens.
But during my work on Fornits Wiki with places that is for troubled teens, I have interviewed many, who have started their journey at 2nd Nature.
So is it fair to say that they create a product that it suitable for these places? That the kids are not trouble when they enter, but made troubled so they fit the facilities they will be shipped to?
My friend got the Wiki entry completed and it looks like this. (http://http://www.fornits.com/wiki/index.php/Second_Nature_Wilderness_program)
Another question are whether they measure their quality. Do they have some kind of statistic about the number who needs "after-care". At a place like Anasazi only 10 % needs aftercare. At SUWS (http://http://www.fornits.com/wiki/index.php/SUWS) the number is 60%.
Source:
Theoretical Basis, process and reported Outcomes of Wilderness (http://http://www.cnr.uidaho.edu/wrc/Publications/doctor2.pdf), Therapy as an Intervention and Treatment for problem behavior in Adolescents, by Keith C. Russell, Idaho University, page 23
-
Didn't I already completely trash Second Nature due to their use of Synonan methodology and false advertising?
I mean what the hell? Are we going over this again? The kids see their damn therapists at most 1 time a week.
You can get the same for cheaper by putting your wayward teen in a tent in your backyard and driving him to the head tweaker yourself.
-
That's the basic idea with Second Nature.
My particular ordeal began with being kidnapped and shipped there as so many. My crime consisted entirely of.. being sad. I still love the idea that taking a depressed transsexual and shipping her to Mormon Utah, minus what few comforts did exist and plus sadistic staff and insane 'therapeutic' ideas were going to make it better.
As noted, the therapist (who was everyone there's therapist) was around at most once a week. This in contrast to the therapist I had at home, who I saw once a week, liked, and respected, and if something came up I needed to talk about he could usually be on call within a few hours at most.
I won't get into the gory details, but staff were every bit as sadistic as any other program, only they really weren't allowed to beat people up randomly - bad PR, I guess. They were perfectly happy with mind games, and those were about the extent of the "therapy".
Now, they get paid for processed meat turned over to more 'long-term' programs, so throughout this they were buttering up my parents to make me such afterwards, of course. They did, the 2 other places and 2 stints at Second Nature gave me PTSD, and that's a story for you.
Conclusion: While I don't doubt the value of doing so, I don't even need to trash Second Nature with its obvious faults and false advertising (which, I will confirm, is false as they come). My argument is a bit simpler: It DOESN'T WORK.
-
Just one answer to consider.
kids at programs like where you sent your kid, have rules about talking down about the program to their parents.basically, if they say anything bad about the program over the phone, or by mail, they will get severely punished for it.
programs like those are infamous about their abusive treatment methods. like isolation, verbal,psychological, and physical abuse.
I will be typically not surprised if its an unlicensed facility with untrained staff members.
-
The therapists at Second Nature are excellent- the best I have encountered. They are highly trained and many are PhDs. The kids are not punished for trashing or bad-mouthing the program and their letters to parents are not censored. It works well for many kids.
The kids at wilderness have reached the point where they won't GET in the car for the parents to take them to see a therapist.
-
(http://http://www.torturedkids.com/images/troll9.png)
-
My argument is a bit simpler: It DOESN'T WORK.
Correction: It didnt work for you!!
...
-
Of the 6 or so kids I knew at 3 springs who went to Second Nature it didn't work for them either.
-
Of the 6 or so kids I knew at 3 springs who went to Second Nature it didn't work for them either.
Well, TSW, I don’t think you would expect to. Many times the reason a child may move on to a residential or Therapeutic program is because the wilderness was not effective for them. So many of the kids who were successful would have gone directly home after their wilderness experience.
Other times the wilderness experience is used as an assessment period to determine what may be the best next step for the child, i.e. going home, going to a TBS, boarding school etc.
...
-
That is funny that you should mention that because of the 6 all of them were there on the reccomendation of Second Nature.
>>>>
-
So many of the kids who were successful would have gone directly home after their wilderness experience.
...
In the immortal words of Lex Luthor: WRONG!
NOBODY went home from Second Nature. It didn't matter in the least how "successful" or not they were. In two durances, nobody went home, because they wouldn't have gotten more cash from it.
...of course, it didn't really matter because none of them were successful. They just created new problems and passed them off as such.
-
That is funny that you should mention that because of the 6 all of them were there on the reccomendation of Second Nature.
>>>>
Yes, that is usually how it works. Many of the kids attend wilderness before going onto a program. I know that when ASR had a wilderness portion all the kids were required to attend the wilderness portion prior to moving on to the main campus, so that doesnt surprise me.
...
-
The therapists at Second Nature are excellent- the best I have encountered. They are highly trained and many are PhDs. The kids are not punished for trashing or bad-mouthing the program and their letters to parents are not censored. It works well for many kids.
The kids at wilderness have reached the point where they won't GET in the car for the parents to take them to see a therapist.
This seems a common argument. it may be true. I can remember on one of the seasons of brat Camp the therapist seemed genuinely smart and helpful in direct contrast to the naievety and gross stupidity of the on the ground staff. (gee we twisted that girls arm for 20 minutes and she is still pissed at us. go figure) but what is the point of single competent adult if they only see the kid once a week? Afterall no phd trained adult on a good salary is going to spend 5 days a week shitting in the woods and most dont.
-
Fuck Second Nature.
I sat through their sales, the duration of wilderness, their eve of transition lectures when the Mormons spout their craziness. They are run by Mormons. Look where they are located in the middle of nowwhere in Duchense, BumfuckUtah.
they told us that our daughter who didn't do drugs or drink, was straight-edge and therefore in DANGER. Straight-edge in Salt Lake City is a baaad thing apparently. Gangs are violent and most are straightedges in Mormon country didn't you know. WTF? Also, if you don't eat meat in Second Nature you are labelled as a control freak/anorectic/eating disorder and need a TBS. Therapy was once a week and otherwise young men or women are in charge of your child.
Thankfully, we got out of the cycle of kidnapping/wilderness/TBS, brainwashing.
-
Fuck Second Nature.
I sat through their sales, the duration of wilderness, their eve of transition lectures when the Mormons spout their craziness. They are run by Mormons. Look where they are located in the middle of nowwhere in Duchense, BumfuckUtah.
they told us that our daughter who didn't do drugs or drink, was straight-edge and therefore in DANGER. Straight-edge in Salt Lake City is a baaad thing apparently. Gangs are violent and most are straightedges in Mormon country didn't you know. WTF? Also, if you don't eat meat in Second Nature you are labelled as a control freak/anorectic/eating disorder and need a TBS. Therapy was once a week and otherwise young men or women are in charge of your child.
Thankfully, we got out of the cycle of kidnapping/wilderness/TBS, brainwashing.
Holy shit. It's a sane program parent !
::jawdrop::
-
Someone preserve this one in a jar of brine!
-
Fuck Second Nature.
I sat through their sales, the duration of wilderness, their eve of transition lectures when the Mormons spout their craziness. They are run by Mormons. Look where they are located in the middle of nowwhere in Duchense, BumfuckUtah.
they told us that our daughter who didn't do drugs or drink, was straight-edge and therefore in DANGER. Straight-edge in Salt Lake City is a baaad thing apparently. Gangs are violent and most are straightedges in Mormon country didn't you know. WTF? Also, if you don't eat meat in Second Nature you are labelled as a control freak/anorectic/eating disorder and need a TBS. Therapy was once a week and otherwise young men or women are in charge of your child.
Thankfully, we got out of the cycle of kidnapping/wilderness/TBS, brainwashing.
Yeah.. that's the basic idea. Sometimes they come up with some ridiculous pretense for a problem as mentioned above.. sometimes if the parents buy into it they don't even go that far, just "they need it, now get us our referral cash!" And despite whatever they may say about their religious affiliations or lack thereof, they ARE Mormons and DO push that in their beliefs and practices.
-
Fuck Second Nature.
I sat through their sales, the duration of wilderness, their eve of transition lectures when the Mormons spout their craziness. They are run by Mormons. Look where they are located in the middle of nowwhere in Duchense, BumfuckUtah.
they told us that our daughter who didn't do drugs or drink, was straight-edge and therefore in DANGER. Straight-edge in Salt Lake City is a baaad thing apparently. Gangs are violent and most are straightedges in Mormon country didn't you know. WTF? Also, if you don't eat meat in Second Nature you are labelled as a control freak/anorectic/eating disorder and need a TBS. Therapy was once a week and otherwise young men or women are in charge of your child.
Thankfully, we got out of the cycle of kidnapping/wilderness/TBS, brainwashing.
So why send her?
-
They're good marketers. Presumably she didn't know that it was bullshit at the time.
-
yup, didn't know it then but now she does.
-
(http://http://www.strangepersons.com/images/content/8531.jpg)
Who, NOBODY speaks... rather, regurgitates canned boilerplate and industry buzzwords, unless they've been coached or prompted to do so. An anonymous poster spewing that very thing rings tinny like the average 'guerrilla marketeer' on poorly sampled phone-line-emulated radio commercials or ugly, bad actors pretending to be people on various cellphone plan commercials.
But then again you're right, I'm in the real world, not in the program bubble world where its normal to speak and act that way! :wink:
I also seriously doubt your daughter or any other program kid goes around talking about how nice her program staffers were all the time, unless kissing program ass is part of the household contract rules for you. But isn't she an adult by now anyway?
Hrm.
And, well, sadly, I'm more than experienced with this industry. You're obviously "NEW WHO" and can't even read the fucking post count or check how long ago I registered, nor do you have any memory or any IDEA of what I've done.
I take it you didn't get the old notes from the previous agent provocateur? :rofl: DUMB ASS.
Nevertheless, normal people do not speak like prompted, cue-carded actors or coached, brainwashed children or parents! You're so used to hearing the same crap from the same LGAT-whitewashed cow-orkers you work with that you've forgotten what normal is and it shows rather blatantly.
But, I'll end this on a note you said yourself:
The reaction and experience that you just read is the norm, whether you want to believe it or not. Most of the BS you read on fornits are kids who had a hard time or who never should have attended in the first place. Anyone can throw a story up of how they were abused or hurt by the experience but these are isolated cases at best and don’t reflect the good that wilderness programs do for families.
WOW. :rofl: :o ::blah:: I don't even have to TRY anymore.
Why did the old who quit anyway?
-
(http://http://www.strangepersons.com/images/content/8531.jpg)
Who, NOBODY speaks... rather, regurgitates canned boilerplate and industry buzzwords, unless they've been coached or prompted to do so. An anonymous poster spewing that very thing rings tinny like the average 'guerrilla marketeer' on poorly sampled phone-line-emulated radio commercials or ugly, bad actors pretending to be people on various cellphone plan commercials.
But then again you're right, I'm in the real world, not in the program bubble world where its normal to speak and act that way! :wink:
I also seriously doubt your daughter or any other program kid goes around talking about how nice her program staffers were all the time, unless kissing program ass is part of the household contract rules for you. But isn't she an adult by now anyway?
Hrm.
And, well, sadly, I'm more than experienced with this industry. You're obviously "NEW WHO" and can't even read the fucking post count or check how long ago I registered, nor do you have any memory or any IDEA of what I've done.
I take it you didn't get the old notes from the previous agent provocateur? :rofl: DUMB ASS.
Nevertheless, normal people do not speak like prompted, cue-carded actors or coached, brainwashed children or parents! You're so used to hearing the same crap from the same LGAT-whitewashed cow-orkers you work with that you've forgotten what normal is and it shows rather blatantly.
But, I'll end this on a note you said yourself:
The reaction and experience that you just read is the norm, whether you want to believe it or not. Most of the BS you read on fornits are kids who had a hard time or who never should have attended in the first place. Anyone can throw a story up of how they were abused or hurt by the experience but these are isolated cases at best and don’t reflect the good that wilderness programs do for families.
WOW. :rofl: :o ::blah:: I don't even have to TRY anymore.
Why did the old who quit anyway?
Hmmm.... Thats a bit of an odd post in response to this wilderness conversation... are you feeling okay Niles? or did you mean to post this elsewhere?
...
-
Unlike you I don't HAVE to engage in post lengthening.
My daughter went to SNWP Georgia. She was there for 12 weeks. I went through the transition program at the end of her stay. Her therapist was really good. We had weekly hour phone conferences with the therapist. My daughter still keeps in contact with the staff and her therapist from time to time. My daughter has nothing but good things to say about the program and thinks it did her a world of good. She felt strong, introspective and accomplished at the end. We were all pleased with it.
Fucking press release bullshit.
Nobody talks like that. Nobody stays in touch with people from a program.
Nobody says "I'm strong introspective and accomplished".
What the FUCK? :rofl:
Niles, it is because you are too far removed from the families and kids that attend and have never attended yourself and therefore cannot relate. That is almost exactly what my daughter experienced and the rest of the kids in her group seemed to be doing well when they left also.
The staff at SUWS were really good people and my daughter talks fondly of them to this day and wonders how they are doing and even mentions she would like to contact them someday to let them know how well she is doing and to see how they are.
The lack of understanding on your part shows first that you are not a parent and secondly that you have never had any experience with the industry. The reaction and experience that you just read is the norm, whether you want to believe it or not. Most of the BS you read on fornits are kids who had a hard time or who never should have attended in the first place. Anyone can throw a story up of how they were abused or hurt by the experience but these are isolated cases at best and don’t reflect the good that wilderness programs do for families.
...
But I can do it too. :)
-
Unlike you I don't HAVE to engage in post lengthening.
My daughter went to SNWP Georgia. She was there for 12 weeks. I went through the transition program at the end of her stay. Her therapist was really good. We had weekly hour phone conferences with the therapist. My daughter still keeps in contact with the staff and her therapist from time to time. My daughter has nothing but good things to say about the program and thinks it did her a world of good. She felt strong, introspective and accomplished at the end. We were all pleased with it.
Fucking press release bullshit.
Nobody talks like that. Nobody stays in touch with people from a program.
Nobody says "I'm strong introspective and accomplished".
What the FUCK? :rofl:
Niles, it is because you are too far removed from the families and kids that attend and have never attended yourself and therefore cannot relate. That is almost exactly what my daughter experienced and the rest of the kids in her group seemed to be doing well when they left also.
The staff at SUWS were really good people and my daughter talks fondly of them to this day and wonders how they are doing and even mentions she would like to contact them someday to let them know how well she is doing and to see how they are.
The lack of understanding on your part shows first that you are not a parent and secondly that you have never had any experience with the industry. The reaction and experience that you just read is the norm, whether you want to believe it or not. Most of the BS you read on fornits are kids who had a hard time or who never should have attended in the first place. Anyone can throw a story up of how they were abused or hurt by the experience but these are isolated cases at best and don’t reflect the good that wilderness programs do for families.
...
But I can do it too. :)
Thats a little better, thank you!!!
...
-
Unlike you I don't HAVE to engage in post lengthening.
My daughter went to SNWP Georgia. She was there for 12 weeks. I went through the transition program at the end of her stay. Her therapist was really good. We had weekly hour phone conferences with the therapist. My daughter still keeps in contact with the staff and her therapist from time to time. My daughter has nothing but good things to say about the program and thinks it did her a world of good. She felt strong, introspective and accomplished at the end. We were all pleased with it.
Fucking press release bullshit.
Nobody talks like that. Nobody stays in touch with people from a program.
Nobody says "I'm strong introspective and accomplished".
What the FUCK? :rofl:
Niles, it is because you are too far removed from the families and kids that attend and have never attended yourself and therefore cannot relate. That is almost exactly what my daughter experienced and the rest of the kids in her group seemed to be doing well when they left also.
The staff at SUWS were really good people and my daughter talks fondly of them to this day and wonders how they are doing and even mentions she would like to contact them someday to let them know how well she is doing and to see how they are.
The lack of understanding on your part shows first that you are not a parent and secondly that you have never had any experience with the industry. The reaction and experience that you just read is the norm, whether you want to believe it or not. Most of the BS you read on fornits are kids who had a hard time or who never should have attended in the first place. Anyone can throw a story up of how they were abused or hurt by the experience but these are isolated cases at best and don’t reflect the good that wilderness programs do for families.
...
But I can do it too. :)
Thats a little better, thank you!!!
...
(http://http://www.strangepersons.com/images/content/8531.jpg)
Who, NOBODY speaks... rather, regurgitates canned boilerplate and industry buzzwords, unless they've been coached or prompted to do so. An anonymous poster spewing that very thing rings tinny like the average 'guerrilla marketeer' on poorly sampled phone-line-emulated radio commercials or ugly, bad actors pretending to be people on various cellphone plan commercials.
But then again you're right, I'm in the real world, not in the program bubble world where its normal to speak and act that way! :wink:
I also seriously doubt your daughter or any other program kid goes around talking about how nice her program staffers were all the time, unless kissing program ass is part of the household contract rules for you. But isn't she an adult by now anyway?
Hrm.
And, well, sadly, I'm more than experienced with this industry. You're obviously "NEW WHO" and can't even read the fucking post count or check how long ago I registered, nor do you have any memory or any IDEA of what I've done.
I take it you didn't get the old notes from the previous agent provocateur? :rofl: DUMB ASS.
Nevertheless, normal people do not speak like prompted, cue-carded actors or coached, brainwashed children or parents! You're so used to hearing the same crap from the same LGAT-whitewashed cow-orkers you work with that you've forgotten what normal is and it shows rather blatantly.
But, I'll end this on a note you said yourself:
The reaction and experience that you just read is the norm, whether you want to believe it or not. Most of the BS you read on fornits are kids who had a hard time or who never should have attended in the first place. Anyone can throw a story up of how they were abused or hurt by the experience but these are isolated cases at best and don’t reflect the good that wilderness programs do for families.
WOW. :rofl: :o ::blah:: I don't even have to TRY anymore.
Why did the old who quit anyway?
-
......I also seriously doubt your daughter or any other program kid goes around talking about how nice her program staffers were all the time, .....
No, I dont think anyone goes around talking how nice their school was all the time. Even people I know who graduated from Harvard dont talk about it all the time unless the subject is brought up. I dont talk about programs all the time except when I am on fornits...I am sure it is the same with you.
...
-
......I also seriously doubt your daughter or any other program kid goes around talking about how nice her program staffers were all the time, .....
No, I dont think anyone goes around talking how nice their school was all the time. Even people I know who graduated from Harvard dont talk about it all the time unless the subject is brought up. I dont talk about programs all the time except when I am on fornits...I am sure it is the same with you.
...my daughter talks fondly of them to this day and wonders how they are doing and even mentions she would like to contact them someday to let them know how well she is doing and to see how they are.
:wstupid: ::bangin:: :wstupid: ::bangin:: :wstupid: ::bangin::
-
......I also seriously doubt your daughter or any other program kid goes around talking about how nice her program staffers were all the time, .....
No, I dont think anyone goes around talking how nice their school was all the time. Even people I know who graduated from Harvard dont talk about it all the time unless the subject is brought up. I dont talk about programs all the time except when I am on fornits...I am sure it is the same with you.
...my daughter talks fondly of them to this day and wonders how they are doing and even mentions she would like to contact them someday to let them know how well she is doing and to see how they are.
:wstupid: ::bangin:: :wstupid: ::bangin:: :wstupid: ::bangin::
Niles, I think you are missing the point. If the subject comes up thewhos daughter speaks fondly of her program, to this day. It doesnt mean she talks about it all day everyday. Its not that difficult to catch onto.
-
Jeees Niles, wake up!!! It is an easy concept to understand. Let’s say you enjoyed a trip to a brewery several years ago and someone stated that you really liked it and still talk fondly of your trip to this day.
The statement doesn’t mean you talk about it all day, every day. What it means is if the subject comes up you still speak about your trip and how you enjoyed it.
...
-
Anyone can throw a story up of how they were abused or hurt by the experience but these are isolated cases at best and don’t reflect the good that wilderness programs do for families.
And why would a story of abuse in a program be "isolated cases at best?"
-
(http://http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/c/c2/Not-again-picard2.jpg)
-
The hundreds of Second Nature families who are pleased with the program are not represented on this forum. That says something....
-
Get me in touch with these hundreds of pleased Second Nature families, if you would. I'd love to hear from them. Make sure the kids are in there too.
Yeah.. that sounds suspiciously like another cult: Scientology parishioners, whether professional auditors, Scientology Volunteer Ministers or one of the many millions of Scientologists belonging to groups, missions and churches around the world, continue to use the Scientology Creed on a daily basis to improve conditions in life.
Now, as anyone familiar with either that particular one or marketing techniques used by such can tell you, there aren't millions of scientologists. There aren't even 50,000. It's the same with 'pleased Second Nature families', only I would argue that those are probably even more a myth. The same argument applies here - show us the evidence. Given the mass of personal, professional, and researched thought against such programs, the burden of proof is with you. Give it your best shot.
-
Funny how they say, "satisfied families" isn't it? Never knew the whole family was out tromping around in the woods being treated like an animal.
What the parents think and believe is not important. They didn't survive the experience they merely endured it from the comfort of their homes.
-
Get me in touch with these hundreds of pleased Second Nature families, if you would. I'd love to hear from them. Make sure the kids are in there too.
Yeah.. that sounds suspiciously like another cult: Scientology parishioners, whether professional auditors, Scientology Volunteer Ministers or one of the many millions of Scientologists belonging to groups, missions and churches around the world, continue to use the Scientology Creed on a daily basis to improve conditions in life.
Now, as anyone familiar with either that particular one or marketing techniques used by such can tell you, there aren't millions of scientologists. There aren't even 50,000. It's the same with 'pleased Second Nature families', only I would argue that those are probably even more a myth. The same argument applies here - show us the evidence. Given the mass of personal, professional, and researched thought against such programs, the burden of proof is with you. Give it your best shot.
I think what we know is thousands of kids have gone thru second nature. What have we seen maybe 5 here on fornits who didnt benefit? I think that is the evidence.
-
Alright.
Now, consider this.
Not all of such victims are familiar with this random forum.
Either way, you're dodging the point. You say all these families were so wonderfully helped (and as noted, it doesn't matter in the least what the families think.. but still)? Show us.
-
I wouldn't bother showing me. I don't give a damn if the program is helpful or not. Any program that disregards civil liberties and human rights is a no go for me.
Second Nature does this every single time they take a kid who was drug out of his bed.
-
Second Nature doesn't claim to be the final solution to teen issues. It is a therapeutic wilderness program which provides the opportunity (yes, the COERCED opportunity) for the teen to be away from the home environment and examine his or her issues and family relationships. The therapists are in the field TWO days a week with the kids in their group and the support staff is in constant touch with the lead therapist for the group. I have spoken with at least 25 teens who believe their Second Nature time was well-spent and who respect the therapists and staff. I have not spoken with any who feel this program was abusive or a waste of time, and this includes kids who are highly critical of RTCs and TBS programs.
-
Second Nature doesn't claim to be the final solution to teen issues. It is a therapeutic wilderness program which provides the opportunity (yes, the COERCED opportunity) for the teen to be away from the home environment and examine his or her issues and family relationships. The therapists are in the field TWO days a week with the kids in their group and the support staff is in constant touch with the lead therapist for the group. I have spoken with at least 25 teens who believe their Second Nature time was well-spent and who respect the therapists and staff. I have not spoken with any who feel this program was abusive or a waste of time, and this includes kids who are highly critical of RTCs and TBS programs.
If this is genuinely the case what makes second nature unique?
-
“GROUP FOUR!â€
-
Did this person go through with you lain? How long ago did you go through?
-
What about compulsory education laws?
-
What about compulsory education laws?
(http://http://www.forum-auto.com/uploads/200307/tophe_2909200243_newbie.jpg)
-
Do participants earn school credits for doing the wilderness course?
Sorry for being so dumb. I really don't know anything about this.
-
I'm gonna assume you're a genuine newbie and not a troll- most of the trolls around here don't do the uninformed-questions thing...
Think about it for a bit. Consider what school credits are supposed to represent. Seriously, what would they have credits in? Being abused in the desert? Force-marched through the woods 101? Why would a school give educational merit to an activity that doesn't involve education?
Similarly, most "therapeutic boarding schools" aren't legally recognized as schools at all, and their diplomas are about as valuable as ass wipe. No accreditation.
Now I'm curious: Why do you ask? You actually sound like the rarest of rare things on Fornits, a real parent. If you've already asked them I assume you've received the usual song and dance. Why not ask the school? Depending on how informed they are (and how badly they want to pass your kid through their system), they will probably let you know how he can "make up" the credits. Which means he's not getting any there.
-
The hundreds of Second Nature families who are pleased with the program are not represented on this forum. That says something....
They're free to speak here.
The thing is, kids in programs are not free to speak at all, and are coerced while in them and threatened with among other things various punishments and actually getting out to 'work the program'.
Which is not therapy, but rather coercive behavior modification.
Ho hum?
-
they give one credit, but it's really 1/4redit since it's based on a quarter system, not a semester, of English and one credit for Physical Education for forced hikes.
the English credit is given in Creative Writing since the teens write in their journal daily plus write their life story and a response to the Impact letters.
http://www.snwp.com/subpages.asp?id=11 (http://www.snwp.com/subpages.asp?id=11)
a bunch of Mormons run this scam.
-
The hundreds of Second Nature families who are pleased with the program are not represented on this forum. That says something....
They're free to speak here.
The thing is, kids in programs are not free to speak at all, and are coerced while in them and threatened with among other things various punishments and actually getting out to 'work the program'.
Which is not therapy, but rather coercive behavior modification.
Ho hum?
Very strange response Niles, which program are you talking about? All kids can speak freely, that is the only way the kids can grow. I think most people are aware the kids are attending the programs because of behavior problems, thereby the reason for receiving behavior modification. Not all the kids require a therapist or need meds.
You should really try to visit one of these places before spouting off.
...
-
Very strange response Niles, which program are you talking about? All kids can speak freely, that is the only way the kids can grow. I think most people are aware the kids are attending the programs because of behavior problems, thereby the reason for receiving behavior modification. Not all the kids require a therapist or need meds.
You should really try to visit one of these places before spouting off.
I really think we need a sticky, locked thread just for these turds of wizdumb you occasionally spout off.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: oh my fucking god lol
-
You should also know that it is possible to get credits whether or not you've actually had any schooling. I went to a therapeutic boarding "school". I went to class, perhaps, 3 weeks of my entire 7 month stay. When in class it was impossible to learn anything because of the level of abuse dealt with, and because we attended classes that had been in progression since the beginning of the year, without us. Kids attend school for one third of the time (at best) that the school runs. School is a "privilege", and if your participation depended on where you were in the program, whether you were doing some "work assignment" (kids handled all maintenance duties at school) or some other sundry slave or recruitment service. Suffice to say, there was NO actual education, however this "school" issued diplomas. So, you can get some kind of "credit" or "education", but it will only exist on paper.
Of course the idea that education is possible in a situation where you have been abducted and imprisoned without any form of due process, in an act of extraordinary rendition, is absurd.
I’m sorry, if parents have any level of competency they would know better than to expect education in such a circumstance.
-
Second Nature's accreditation is piggybacked off a shitpit called the "Willow Creek School", which in turn is accredited by the "Northwest Association of Accredited Schools", whose requirements are pretty much nonexistent and whose guiding principle is apparently 'stay out of controversy' (they used to accredit Ivy Ridge until the heat came down).
Bottom line, it's not real academics.
-
Kids who are sent to a wilderness program have pretty much abandoned the educational opportunities they had at home. 8 weeks or so without schooling is not the end of the world.
The kids can write freely and express their opinions. They get in excellent physical condition and have a lot of pride in what they accomplish. Those with serious addiction issues usually are not able to maintain sobriety after leaving the program if they go right home.
The bunch of Mormons that run Second Nature are skilled, intelligent and caring.
-
Kids who are sent to a wilderness program have pretty much abandoned the educational opportunities they had at home. 8 weeks or so without schooling is not the end of the world.
The kids can write freely and express their opinions. They get in excellent physical condition and have a lot of pride in what they accomplish. Those with serious addiction issues usually are not able to maintain sobriety after leaving the program if they go right home.
The bunch of Mormons that run Second Nature are skilled, intelligent and caring.
-
Kids who are sent to a wilderness program have pretty much abandoned the educational opportunities they had at home. 8 weeks or so without schooling is not the end of the world.
The kids can write freely and express their opinions. They get in excellent physical condition and have a lot of pride in what they accomplish. Those with serious addiction issues usually are not able to maintain sobriety after leaving the program if they go right home.
The bunch of Mormons that run Second Nature are skilled, intelligent and caring.
(http://http;//www.torturedkids.com/troll10.png)
-
(http://http://www.torturedkids.com/images/troll10.png)
-
I don't get it. How do they get parents to enroll their child in a program that will automatically cause an already struggling student to fall even further behind in school? Unless the child is registered with the school district as a homeschooler, how can this even be legal?
Now I'm curious: Why do you ask?
Several aquaintances have sent their children to Second Nature or Katherine Free. It sounded weird to me but I just assumed I didn't understand it. I thought maybe these courses were more like sleep-away camps but where there's a little school-house out in the woods where they do lessons during the day or something.
-
8 weeks or so without schooling is not the end of the world.
You'll fail the entire semester if you miss 8 weeks.
-
I don't get it. How do they get parents to enroll their child in a program that will automatically cause an already struggling student to fall even further behind in school? Unless the child is registered with the school district as a homeschooler, how can this even be legal?
Now I'm curious: Why do you ask?
Several aquaintances have sent their children to Second Nature or Katherine Free. It sounded weird to me but I just assumed I didn't understand it. I thought maybe these courses were more like sleep-away camps but where there's a little school-house out in the woods where they do lessons during the day or something.
Each case is different. In many cases the child isnt going to school or is heading down a path where he/she wont graduate anyway, so missing out on schooling is secondary to getting the child back on track. The schooling can be made up later... the school districts have much latitude in this area as long as there is a plan to have the child placed back on a path to receive an education at some point.
...
-
Kids who are sent to a wilderness program have pretty much abandoned the educational opportunities they had at home. 8 weeks or so without schooling is not the end of the world.
The kids can write freely and express their opinions. They get in excellent physical condition and have a lot of pride in what they accomplish. Those with serious addiction issues usually are not able to maintain sobriety after leaving the program if they go right home.
The bunch of Mormons that run Second Nature are skilled, intelligent and caring.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_act)
-
Unless the child is registered with the school district as a homeschooler, how can this even be legal?
Although mounting an attack based on the education- or lack thereof- angle may prove useful, I would like to call attention to your serious fucking problem with priorities.
Let me go ahead and QFT this whole fucking thing here and maybe you'll actually read it this time around:
“GROUP FOUR!â€
-
Although mounting an attack based on the education- or lack thereof- angle may prove useful, I would like to call attention to your serious fucking problem with priorities.
I know. I was trying to figure it out from the parents' perspective. The parents don't know about most of the other stuff that goes on but they know for a fact that the child isn't going to be receiving an education. Unless it's summer vacation, I was just sort of baffled as to how that gets rationalized.
-
Don't you think the parents have done every possible thing to try to help the kid before resorting to wilderness? Don't you think the parents tried to keep the kid in school and salvage the education?
What part of THE KID WAS BLOWING SCHOOL are you not understanding? The ONLY hope at this point is the wilderness program which will get the kid back on track. Taking incompletes or repeating a semester is a pretty minor hurdle compared to jail, death from overdose, being killed in a car wreck or some other similar fate. Also, in many cases it IS a summer choice.
You guys are really grasping this time.
-
Don't you think the parents have done every possible thing to try to help the kid before resorting to wilderness? Don't you think the parents tried to keep the kid in school and salvage the education?
What part of THE KID WAS BLOWING SCHOOL are you not understanding? The ONLY hope at this point is the wilderness program which will get the kid back on track. Taking incompletes or repeating a semester is a pretty minor hurdle compared to jail, death from overdose, being killed in a car wreck or some other similar fate. Also, in many cases it IS a summer choice.
You guys are really grasping this time.
http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=2364754 (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=2364754)
-
Don't you think the parents have done every possible thing to try to help the kid before resorting to wilderness? Don't you think the parents tried to keep the kid in school and salvage the education?
What part of THE KID WAS BLOWING SCHOOL are you not understanding? The ONLY hope at this point is the wilderness program which will get the kid back on track. Taking incompletes or repeating a semester is a pretty minor hurdle compared to jail, death from overdose, being killed in a car wreck or some other similar fate. Also, in many cases it IS a summer choice.
You guys are really grasping this time.
The part where you're simply saying that kids blow off school before being sent to programs (not all do... I wouldn't even say most) and that somehow marching in the woods with sadistic manipulative mind-fucking uneducated nitwits will 'put them on track' is the part I don't understand :-?
-
Kids who are sent to a wilderness program have pretty much abandoned the educational opportunities they had at home. 8 weeks or so without schooling is not the end of the world.
Says who? Id love to see some proof about that. Ive heard of tons of kids escorted from school TO a program.
But then again you're just spewing nonsense anyway!
The kids can write freely and express their opinions. They get in excellent physical condition and have a lot of pride in what they accomplish. Those with serious addiction issues usually are not able to maintain sobriety after leaving the program if they go right home.
BULLSHIT. Prove it! EVERYTHING ANYONE WHO HAS BEEN IN SUCH A PROGRAM HAS EVER SAID, AND ALL VIDEO OF SUCH PROGRAMS CONTRADICTS WHAT YOU JUST SAID! LOL!
The bunch of Mormons that run Second Nature are skilled, intelligent and caring.
Why is it all statements about people from programmed people reads like a fucking mad-lib?
-
Seriously.. it reminds me of talking to Scientologists. WHAT ARE YOUR CRIMES? WHAT ARE YOU AFRAID OF, LAIN? WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO HIDE? ...NO, WE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO DIED ON OUR WATCH OR ANYTHING, WHAT ARE YOUR CRIMES? WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO ENTURBULATE PEOPLE?
etc etc etc
-
You answer me how this can be legal, and then we can discuss schooling.
Lain, at some point you should tell us all what is not legal about the wilderness experience you put up there. I read it twice and can not find it, its just about a bunch of kids hiking and learning how to keep each other safe, watching each others backs. I dont think the shouting is illegal, a lot of kids get yelled at at home, unless it is one of those trick questions where they are all on illegal land or government land.
I dont think anyone else is going to guess at this point.
-
You answer me how this can be legal, and then we can discuss schooling.
Lain, at some point you should tell us all what is not legal about the wilderness experience you put up there. I read it twice and can not find it, its just about a bunch of kids hiking and learning how to keep each other safe, watching each others backs. I dont think the shouting is illegal, a lot of kids get yelled at at home, unless it is one of those trick questions where they are all on illegal land or government land.
I dont think anyone else is going to guess at this point.
They can learn the same belonging to the Crips and gain some valuable business skills at the same time.
-
8 weeks or so without schooling is not the end of the world.
if you miss 8 weeks you'll fail the entire semester which means you can't graduate on time with the rest of your class
-
You answer me how this can be legal, and then we can discuss schooling.
Lain, at some point you should tell us all what is not legal about the wilderness experience you put up there. I read it twice and can not find it, its just about a bunch of kids hiking and learning how to keep each other safe, watching each others backs. I dont think the shouting is illegal, a lot of kids get yelled at at home, unless it is one of those trick questions where they are all on illegal land or government land.
I dont think anyone else is going to guess at this point.
With statements like this, the who, and pro absuive cultists establish themselves as amoral, and incompetant criminality spokespeople
-
You answer me how this can be legal, and then we can discuss schooling.
Lain, at some point you should tell us all what is not legal about the wilderness experience you put up there. I read it twice and can not find it, its just about a bunch of kids hiking and learning how to keep each other safe, watching each others backs. I dont think the shouting is illegal, a lot of kids get yelled at at home, unless it is one of those trick questions where they are all on illegal land or government land.
I dont think anyone else is going to guess at this point.
With statements like this, the who, and pro absuive cultists establish themselves as amoral, and incompetant criminality spokespeople
I think we can take that as there is nothing illegal about it.
...
-
Hey Tookie, what you doin here in da woods?
Checking out this here wilderness program I keep hearin ‘bout.
Never seen so many trees in my life and I’ve been around for over 16 years now.
What up with the guy in the yellow shirt? Whats it say? “Staffâ€
-
"I did it!! I did it!! Look at the blaze “Park Rangerâ€
-
Okay... much as I dislike and disagree with The Who, I have to give credit for that.
As to the whole thing... keep in mind, i'm not the one talking about legality. I haven't bothered to look up specific Utah child abuse laws, as I don't plan on bringing up a suit - i've got some personal stuff that needs my money more. I think it's evil, manipulative and twisted, and I think trying to pin legality as a main issue sets you up as an amoral jerk (to say the least)... but I myself do not know anything about what's legal or not in this past the false imprisonment.
-
Okay... much as I dislike and disagree with The Who, I have to give credit for that.
As to the whole thing... keep in mind, i'm not the one talking about legality. I haven't bothered to look up specific Utah child abuse laws, as I don't plan on bringing up a suit - i've got some personal stuff that needs my money more. I think it's evil, manipulative and twisted, and I think trying to pin legality as a main issue sets you up as an amoral jerk (to say the least)... but I myself do not know anything about what's legal or not in this past the false imprisonment.
Well, there's the abduction, the false imprisonment, and the physical abuse. Forcing you to live in those conditions is illegal, at least if you don't do it under cover as "treatment".
A man who forced his kid to sleep outside (in a tent) went to prison for abuse, as did a man who forced his kid to sleep in a dog house. Then there's the obvious emotional abuse involved. If your parents felt you did something wrong and invivting the neighborhood kids over to shame you....they would be in alot of trouble.
-
It appears lane that it is legal for programs to treat kids badly. I think the question is whether it is ethical?
-
The kids at Second Nature are not treated badly. I bet 99% of the kids would NOT make that claim. They do some things outside their comfort zones. In fact, they might be mighty uncomfortable for awhile. Yes, it is involuntary. Tough luck. They weren't living within the bounds of household, school and community norms, and gave up the right to stay there. They get an opportunity to figure out what is going on with them, write a lot, talk it out and figure out what they want to do with their lives.
They are not abused- certainly not to the extent they abused family members. For those of you who have not been in this program, you would be surprised at what these kids have done in the home and what they admit to once the first impact letters arrive. If you think these kids are there for smoking pot once or twice or skipping school, you are quite wrong.
-
The kids at Second Nature are not treated badly.
Says you.
I bet 99% of the kids would NOT make that claim.
Not until they're outside of the influence of coercion, home contracts or exit plans anyway...
They do some things outside their comfort zones.
Yet again more misquoting of psychology to excuse creating anxiety to pressure people into doing things, breaking them down and brainwashing them. Joy.
In fact, they might be mighty uncomfortable for awhile.
See above.
Yes, it is involuntary. Tough luck.
YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!! Wait, What?
They weren't living within the bounds of household, school and community norms, and gave up the right to stay there.
Again, says who? Have you somehow missed all the kids sent off who were doing just all of that fine? And at any rate, you do not give up human and civil rights because you act out, because most of the time kids act out if something is wrong and they need help... which they say a program is, NOT a punishment, until you change the argument in about 20 seconds. :roll:
They get an opportunity to figure out what is going on with them, write a lot, talk it out and figure out what they want to do with their lives.
You mean they're forced to accept what someone else tells them about what is going on, forced to write and confess, forced to speak and orally confess, and do what they're told?
They are not abused-
Again, says who?
certainly not to the extent they abused family members.
HAHA. Right. Is it or isn't it a punishment? And why the victim complexing? I wonder why Parent seminars don't come with folding port-a-crucifixes.
For those of you who have not been in this program, you would be surprised at what these kids have done in the home
Does it matter? Nothing excuses abuse, and a lot of kids have DONE NOTHING WRONG, so yeah, pretty surprising I'd say.
and what they admit to once the first impact letters arrive.
:roll: well of COURSE, if they don't admit to things they'll never get out of there, or are at least lead to believe that.
If you think these kids are there for smoking pot once or twice or skipping school, you are quite wrong.
Again, prove it, asshole.
-
Yes, it is involuntary. Tough luck. They weren't living within the bounds of household, school and community norms, and gave up the right to stay there. They get an opportunity to figure out what is going on with them, write a lot, talk it out and figure out what they want to do with their lives.
They are not abused- certainly not to the extent they abused family members. For those of you who have not been in this program, you would be surprised at what these kids have done in the home and what they admit to once the first impact letters arrive.
HAHA. Right. Is it or isn't it a punishment? And why the victim complexing? I wonder why Parent seminars don't come with folding port-a-crucifixes.
Hilarious. Do you think this is a troll saying offensive crap just to get people riled up, or a true believer? If it's a true believer they've disconnected from reality to the extent that they’ve no idea how horrifying they sound to non-involved parties.
Hint: pretending not to be evil in a public forum is a good idea if you're looking to convince people of the validity of your "therapy".
In the future, play down the "these children lost the right to live with their families" (after we received the check,) angle.
This works in groups with abusive parents, where they're manipulated into misplacing their rage about their dissapointing lives onto the kids they've had abducted and imprisoned, until they “confess to all the horrible things they've done,â€
-
Whatever.
Not a very convincing troll. ^.^
-
What they do is not illegal because children are little more than property until they turn 18. Some of the things that are done there might get a parent in trouble with the law if they were done by the parent at home, but when done out in the woods by strangers in the name of therapy, it's all just fine.
The whole idea of education credits cracks me up. Especially the one about creative writing. Some kids just fill their journal with page after page of "fuck second nature". I can't believe they get school credit for that.
-
Hey Tookie, what you doin here in da woods?
Checking out this here wilderness program I keep hearin ‘bout.
Never seen so many trees in my life and I’ve been around for over 16 years now.
What up with the guy in the yellow shirt? Whats it say? “Staffâ€
-
The kids at Second Nature are not treated badly. I bet 99% of the kids would NOT make that claim. They do some things outside their comfort zones. In fact, they might be mighty uncomfortable for awhile. Yes, it is involuntary. Tough luck. They weren't living within the bounds of household, school and community norms, and gave up the right to stay there. They get an opportunity to figure out what is going on with them, write a lot, talk it out and figure out what they want to do with their lives.
They are not abused- certainly not to the extent they abused family members. For those of you who have not been in this program, you would be surprised at what these kids have done in the home and what they admit to once the first impact letters arrive. If you think these kids are there for smoking pot once or twice or skipping school, you are quite wrong.
On one hand you are saying this is not a punishment and on the other you are saying these kids put their families through hell so don't deserve a voice. Which is it?
It is also interesting you mention these impact letters. Allowing for the fact that some kids might be real nightmares how is coerced confession morally justifiable? If such a thing is used on criminal suspects it is disregarded by a court because it is not legitimate. this is true even in the cases of those who have been previously convicted of serious crimes. But many programs are quite open about making kids rewrite confessions to tell what it sees as the "whole truth" Is it that this program is the exception or that you see nothing wrong with allowing minors less rights than adult criminals?
-
The kids at Second Nature are not treated badly. I bet 99% of the kids would NOT make that claim. They do some things outside their comfort zones. In fact, they might be mighty uncomfortable for awhile. Yes, it is involuntary. Tough luck. They weren't living within the bounds of household, school and community norms, and gave up the right to stay there. They get an opportunity to figure out what is going on with them, write a lot, talk it out and figure out what they want to do with their lives.
They are not abused- certainly not to the extent they abused family members. For those of you who have not been in this program, you would be surprised at what these kids have done in the home and what they admit to once the first impact letters arrive. If you think these kids are there for smoking pot once or twice or skipping school, you are quite wrong.
On one hand you are saying this is not a punishment and on the other you are saying these kids put their families through hell so don't deserve a voice. Which is it?
It is also interesting you mention these impact letters. Allowing for the fact that some kids might be real nightmares how is coerced confession morally justifiable? If such a thing is used on criminal suspects it is disregarded by a court because it is not legitimate. this is true even in the cases of those who have been previously convicted of serious crimes. But many programs are quite open about making kids rewrite confessions to tell what it sees as the "whole truth" Is it that this program is the exception or that you see nothing wrong with allowing minors less rights than adult criminals?
I see this prison/criminal comparison brought up often. I think one thing that is missing is many of you have never been parents, so I can see how it can be confusing for some. When I was young I always felt I should have more freedoms than I did... it is a rush to adulthood that most kids are constantly struggling with. You cant allow your children to have the same freedoms of any adult, whether they are in prison or not. The law is very clear in this area. Anyone who has been in an emergency room or knows someone who has worked there will tell you that kids cant be given wide open freedoms. They see children who have fallen out of windows, ingested antifreeze, cut themselves with scissors, scalded themselves with hot water. If children were placed in prisons they would have to be totally redesigned and would look nothing like the adult facilities because kids need to be supervised.
In this country, at least, children have less rights and freedoms than adults (in prison or not). The only way to address or change this is to go after the justice system and try to get the laws changed, but until such time the schools and parents need to abide by them or they may go to jail themselves.
...
-
I bet you've never been abused in a shitpit. You have no clue what it is like to be in a situation where adults have total control over your life. I'm not talking about that 2 hour BDSM frolic you had down on Nana Plaza in Bangkok either.
-
I bet you've never been abused in a shitpit.
No I haven’t. But if I were I would be naming names and filing lawsuits against individuals. I would not be wasting my time trying to tear down the whole industry and innocent people not involved.
You have no clue what it is like to be in a situation where adults have total control over your life…..
Prior to age 18, yes I do… since then I gained more and more control over my own life.
I'm not talking about that 2 hour BDSM frolic you had down on Nana Plaza in Bangkok either.
Well at least you showed a little respect and didn’t suggest I was down in the PatPong Market area…thank you.
...
-
I bet you've never been abused in a shitpit.
No I haven’t. But if I were I would be naming names and filing lawsuits against individuals. I would not be wasting my time trying to tear down the whole industry and innocent people not involved.
You have no clue what it is like to be in a situation where adults have total control over your life…..
Prior to age 18, yes I do… since then I gained more and more control over my own life.
I'm not talking about that 2 hour BDSM frolic you had down on Nana Plaza in Bangkok either.
Well at least you showed a little respect and didn’t suggest I was down in the PatPong Market area…thank you.
...
There are no innocents in this sick business. What you and your family did prior to you being 18 in no way has any bearing on what a child suffers in a programme. Stop trying to connect the two as if they have any basis for comparison in the first place.
Pat Pong blows ass anyway.. nothing but creepy 60 year old aussies down their picking up 12 year olds.
-
And consider yourself lucky I didn't accuse you of being a turd burglar down on Soi Cowboy you randy old bastard.
-
There are no innocents in this sick business. What you and your family did prior to you being 18 in no way has any bearing on what a child suffers in a programme. Stop trying to connect the two as if they have any basis for comparison in the first place.
That is why I mentioned suing the individuals who did the abusing. I am familiar with some of the schools in the industry. To say they are all abusive is reckless at best and anyone who says they were abused by someone and then focuses their attention on accusing 500 to 1,000 schools is wasting everyone’s time and will probably fall on deaf ears, personally I would tend not to believe them myself. I have seen people who have been abused and wronged and they want nothing more than to go after one person… look him/her in the eye and watch them go to prison. If it is a rape case then it is a little more complicated to pursue because the child may feel intimidated and may have to take a softer or less direct approach.
The kids who are abused in the public school system go right after the teacher and individual school. They don’t try to take down the entire school system from the federal level down, it’s a waste of time.
...
-
The kids at Second Nature are not treated badly.
Says you.
I bet 99% of the kids would NOT make that claim.
Not until they're outside of the influence of coercion, home contracts or exit plans anyway...
They do some things outside their comfort zones.
Yet again more misquoting of psychology to excuse creating anxiety to pressure people into doing things, breaking them down and brainwashing them. Joy.
In fact, they might be mighty uncomfortable for awhile.
See above.
Yes, it is involuntary. Tough luck.
YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!! Wait, What?
They weren't living within the bounds of household, school and community norms, and gave up the right to stay there.
Again, says who? Have you somehow missed all the kids sent off who were doing just all of that fine? And at any rate, you do not give up human and civil rights because you act out, because most of the time kids act out if something is wrong and they need help... which they say a program is, NOT a punishment, until you change the argument in about 20 seconds. :roll:
They get an opportunity to figure out what is going on with them, write a lot, talk it out and figure out what they want to do with their lives.
You mean they're forced to accept what someone else tells them about what is going on, forced to write and confess, forced to speak and orally confess, and do what they're told?
They are not abused-
Again, says who?
certainly not to the extent they abused family members.
HAHA. Right. Is it or isn't it a punishment? And why the victim complexing? I wonder why Parent seminars don't come with folding port-a-crucifixes.
For those of you who have not been in this program, you would be surprised at what these kids have done in the home
Does it matter? Nothing excuses abuse, and a lot of kids have DONE NOTHING WRONG, so yeah, pretty surprising I'd say.
and what they admit to once the first impact letters arrive.
:roll: well of COURSE, if they don't admit to things they'll never get out of there, or are at least lead to believe that.
If you think these kids are there for smoking pot once or twice or skipping school, you are quite wrong.
Again, prove it, asshole.
ALL ABOARD THE REPOSTING MY LINE BY LINE TRAIN!
-
The kids at Second Nature are not treated badly. I bet 99% of the kids would NOT make that claim. They do some things outside their comfort zones. In fact, they might be mighty uncomfortable for awhile. Yes, it is involuntary. Tough luck. They weren't living within the bounds of household, school and community norms, and gave up the right to stay there. They get an opportunity to figure out what is going on with them, write a lot, talk it out and figure out what they want to do with their lives.
They are not abused- certainly not to the extent they abused family members. For those of you who have not been in this program, you would be surprised at what these kids have done in the home and what they admit to once the first impact letters arrive. If you think these kids are there for smoking pot once or twice or skipping school, you are quite wrong.
The person seems to have knowledge of the place, we know that you dont, Niles. You could learn something here.
-
The kids at Second Nature are not treated badly. I bet 99% of the kids would NOT make that claim. They do some things outside their comfort zones. In fact, they might be mighty uncomfortable for awhile. Yes, it is involuntary. Tough luck. They weren't living within the bounds of household, school and community norms, and gave up the right to stay there. They get an opportunity to figure out what is going on with them, write a lot, talk it out and figure out what they want to do with their lives.
They are not abused- certainly not to the extent they abused family members. For those of you who have not been in this program, you would be surprised at what these kids have done in the home and what they admit to once the first impact letters arrive. If you think these kids are there for smoking pot once or twice or skipping school, you are quite wrong.
Don’t be discouraged by all the negative posts. Most of the readers here are silent and appreciate your posts, the negative ones are by people trying to run down the industry as a whole and probably know very little about second nature.
...
-
OzGirl- Receiving an impact letter is not a coerced confession. The kid reads the letter to the group circle and, in most cases, what the parents have written in the letter presents a vastly different picture than what the kid has claimed up to that point. Since all the kids, in turn, have been in this position, they know that the version the parents are presenting is a lot closer to the truth than what the kid had claimed- i.e. "I only smoked pot twice" versus "the kid was dealing and smoking daily and was kicked out of school".
"My parents are jerks and won't let me do what I want" versus "the kid pushed his younger sister so hard that she cut her head".
The kids at Second Nature are allowed to come to their own conclusions and admissions in their own time. There is no set time and every kid's program is quite individualized.
-
Don’t be discouraged by all the negative posts. Most of the readers here are silent and appreciate your posts, the negative ones are by people trying to run down the industry as a whole and probably know very little about second nature.
are you trying to placate a troll or yourself?
Second Nature is very familiar to me and my family so we know more than 'very little'.
Wait are you John Karan the car salesman who is now Second Nature's admission director. :rofl:
-
OzGirl- Receiving an impact letter is not a coerced confession. The kid reads the letter to the group circle and, in most cases, what the parents have written in the letter presents a vastly different picture than what the kid has claimed up to that point. Since all the kids, in turn, have been in this position, they know that the version the parents are presenting is a lot closer to the truth than what the kid had claimed- i.e. "I only smoked pot twice" versus "the kid was dealing and smoking daily and was kicked out of school".
"My parents are jerks and won't let me do what I want" versus "the kid pushed his younger sister so hard that she cut her head".
The kids at Second Nature are allowed to come to their own conclusions and admissions in their own time. There is no set time and every kid's program is quite individualized.
Here is the thing though. In the occasional case that it is the parent who is a sociopath it is their word against the kid's. This letter can potentially be used against the kid by those who have a financial interest in imprisoning the child. So on that level it is unjust and the kid is afforded less rights than a criminal. Moreover in many cases there have been incidences of the school sending back an impact letter that it deems too soft. How can this not be considered manipulative?
I also wonder how therapeutic any adult would find it to have to read a letter about all of the ways they had disappointed loved ones to a roomful of aquaintances? because from where I sit it seems pretty humiliating. I could even understand in the case of delinquent behavior if the impact letter was private and read only by the child. This would possibly be a useful way of pointing out the effect their behaviour has on their loved ones.
I also wonder why it is necessary in the case of mentally ill or depressed kids. If it is about healing not punishment then they should not be made to feel ashamed?
-
Don’t be discouraged by all the negative posts. Most of the readers here are silent and appreciate your posts, the negative ones are by people trying to run down the industry as a whole and probably know very little about second nature.
are you trying to placate a troll or yourself?
There was a guest who was telling their story of their childs time spent in Second Nature. The child did very well and since it was a positive post about a program the author was receiving many negative comments in response.
Thewho was just letting the poster know that there were many people reading here, that dont post, that appreciate his/her story and not to be discouraged by the few negative posts.
-
OzGirl- I'm sure there is an occasional case where the parent is a sociopath. There are also cases where the KID is one.
The staff works with the parents on how to prepare the impact letter, but the content is not controlled. The purpose of the letter is to be objective, but to lay out all the harm that has been done to the family, the community and the teen himself. The teen gets to digest it before reading it in group. It is actually an effective therapeutic process. The teen is free to disagree with what the parents are saying and explain any misperceptions. This opens dialogue between the teen and the parents, which is mediated, in a sense, by the therapist. The therapists spend a lot of time talking to the parents and helping them understand their role in the issues. Therapy at home for the parents and remaining family members is recommended. No one ever says the issues are all about the teen.
Families that don't care about their kids don't put this kind of investment into them. This is not an easy process for the parents and is certainly not cheap. It is absolutely not a matter of sending the kid off and forgetting about them. Every waking moment is spent worrying, praying and working on issues at home so that the family can be healed and the teen can be successful.
As I said, I have had contact with at least 50 Second Nature families and there is 100% praise for the program.
As Who points out, there are bad programs out there, so why mess with one that is good?
-
Anecdotal "evidence" from an anonymous program supporter means nothing. Please show CLINICAL evidence that Second Nature is effective at healing psychosis or sociopathy. Otherwise, you're just another full-of-shit shill...
Post the clinical trials that prove what you're saying or shut up.
-
OzGirl- Receiving an impact letter is not a coerced confession.
Are they allowed to defend themselves, or simply not read it? Someone else's accusations you're forced to read out loud is definitely a fucking coerced confession if you can't contradict it and you're forced to read it, unless you lack English comprehension skills!
The kid reads the letter to the group circle and, in most cases, what the parents have written in the letter presents a vastly different picture than what the kid has claimed up to that point.
So you mean they've been coerced through similar experiences to join in the group vs the newcomer dynamic to break them down so they themselves, i.e. the old comers can get out?
Since all the kids, in turn, have been in this position, they know that the version the parents are presenting is a lot closer to the truth than what the kid had claimed- i.e. "I only smoked pot twice" versus "the kid was dealing and smoking daily and was kicked out of school".
Again, according to who? The person who wrote that letter, after begin coached and prompted by the program, and having other manipulated teenagers 'reinforce' the 'impact' to the poor newcomer reading it out loud... yeah, thats totally not about making the kid feel shitty so you can break them down better, not at all!
"My parents are jerks and won't let me do what I want" versus "the kid pushed his younger sister so hard that she cut her head".
So all of them who don't like their parents are violent towards their sisters? You DO know a truly violent kid would end up killing at least one staffer, right? These two-bit programs with seminar-trained staff are not equipped at all, or at best ill-equipped to deal with someone truly violent. I'd love to see them take a gang into the woods..
The kids at Second Nature are allowed to come to their own conclusions and admissions in their own time. There is no set time and every kid's program is quite individualized.
You mean they last at least 30-60-90-G64 days and then how many ever after it takes to walk the walk talk the talk and act like an apologetic brainwashed little stepford child?
You really must think we're idiots. This is obviously a case of making them feel the parents are against them by proxy, NOT letting them defend themselves against the accusations made, forced confession before a group, and group confrontation, alone, by yourself, out in the woods, filthy miserable and eating shitty food, depending on the people who hurt you for food water shelter and hygiene.
Yeah, thats totally therapeutic.
-
OzGirl- I'm sure there is an occasional case where the parent is a sociopath. There are also cases where the KID is one.
The staff works with the parents on how to prepare the impact letter, but the content is not controlled. The purpose of the letter is to be objective, but to lay out all the harm that has been done to the family, the community and the teen himself. The teen gets to digest it before reading it in group. It is actually an effective therapeutic process. The teen is free to disagree with what the parents are saying and explain any misperceptions. This opens dialogue between the teen and the parents, which is mediated, in a sense, by the therapist. The therapists spend a lot of time talking to the parents and helping them understand their role in the issues. Therapy at home for the parents and remaining family members is recommended. No one ever says the issues are all about the teen.
Families that don't care about their kids don't put this kind of investment into them. This is not an easy process for the parents and is certainly not cheap. It is absolutely not a matter of sending the kid off and forgetting about them. Every waking moment is spent worrying, praying and working on issues at home so that the family can be healed and the teen can be successful.
As I said, I have had contact with at least 50 Second Nature families and there is 100% praise for the program.
As Who points out, there are bad programs out there, so why mess with one that is good?
Nicely said
-
OzGirl- I'm sure there is an occasional case where the parent is a sociopath. There are also cases where the KID is one.
The staff works with the parents on how to prepare the impact letter, but the content is not controlled. The purpose of the letter is to be objective, but to lay out all the harm that has been done to the family, the community and the teen himself. The teen gets to digest it before reading it in group. It is actually an effective therapeutic process. The teen is free to disagree with what the parents are saying and explain any misperceptions. This opens dialogue between the teen and the parents, which is mediated, in a sense, by the therapist. The therapists spend a lot of time talking to the parents and helping them understand their role in the issues. Therapy at home for the parents and remaining family members is recommended. No one ever says the issues are all about the teen.
Families that don't care about their kids don't put this kind of investment into them. This is not an easy process for the parents and is certainly not cheap. It is absolutely not a matter of sending the kid off and forgetting about them. Every waking moment is spent worrying, praying and working on issues at home so that the family can be healed and the teen can be successful.
As I said, I have had contact with at least 50 Second Nature families and there is 100% praise for the program.
As Who points out, there are bad programs out there, so why mess with one that is good?
Nicely said
"IMPACT" LETTERS ARE OBVIOUSLY A WAY TO EMOTIONALLY ATTACK THE CHILD FORCED TO READ THEM.
THEY ARE NOT THERAPY.
THIS PROGRAM HAS BEEN DEBUNKED TO HELL PREVIOUSLY.
LETS DIG UP THE OLD THREADS :roll: TIME FOR THREAD NECROMANCERY!
-
You really must think we're idiots.
It's obvious to anyone who reads your posts.
-
OzGirl- I'm sure there is an occasional case where the parent is a sociopath. There are also cases where the KID is one.
The staff works with the parents on how to prepare the impact letter, but the content is not controlled. The purpose of the letter is to be objective, but to lay out all the harm that has been done to the family, the community and the teen himself. The teen gets to digest it before reading it in group. It is actually an effective therapeutic process. The teen is free to disagree with what the parents are saying and explain any misperceptions. This opens dialogue between the teen and the parents, which is mediated, in a sense, by the therapist. The therapists spend a lot of time talking to the parents and helping them understand their role in the issues. Therapy at home for the parents and remaining family members is recommended. No one ever says the issues are all about the teen.
Families that don't care about their kids don't put this kind of investment into them. This is not an easy process for the parents and is certainly not cheap. It is absolutely not a matter of sending the kid off and forgetting about them. Every waking moment is spent worrying, praying and working on issues at home so that the family can be healed and the teen can be successful.
As I said, I have had contact with at least 50 Second Nature families and there is 100% praise for the program.
As Who points out, there are bad programs out there, so why mess with one that is good?
"Sociopaths" are defined as people who don't have concsouses. If any kid truly was a sociopath, not only would these "inducing guilt" cult tricks, not work, they'd encourage sociopathic behavior as sociopaths supposedly revel in hurting people.
Also, lables like sociopath are glib ways of dismissing people who participate in behaviors outside of the social contract, not immoral behavior (no one thinks reagan's a sociopath for torturing women and children in order to hurt the sandinistas or bombing peaceful south american countries that fairly elected a socialist leader)
Of course, we're missing the obvious, that any parent who has their kid abducted and force marched throught the wilderness because their kid "lies, takes drugs, and is disrespectful" is pretty sociopathic
-
"IMPACT" LETTERS ARE OBVIOUSLY A WAY TO EMOTIONALLY ATTACK THE CHILD FORCED TO READ THEM.
THEY ARE NOT THERAPY.
THIS PROGRAM HAS BEEN DEBUNKED TO HELL PREVIOUSLY.
LETS DIG UP THE OLD THREADS :roll: TIME FOR THREAD NECROMANCERY!
The word, I believe, is 'necromancy'.
As a survivor, though, I'll go ahead and point out that these were about the furthest from 'therapy' you could get. They were their way of breaking you down via forced confession like any other - it didn't matter if things were exaggerated or outright bullshit, you were forced to agree with them and 'read them neutrally'. It was a start to the system of regression used as 'help' by so many programs to fuck with kids' heads severely.. and the short form of it is that whatever anecdotes from marketers may abound, Second Nature has been debunked repeatedly and has no value as therapy or anything else. For anyone.
-
It serves the purpose of giving parents a break from their difficult duty of managing their troubled teens lives for them. The myth of innocence among program students is greatly exaggerated.
-
not really. I'd list off the kids I knew well through these and what they did to 'deserve' it, but you know as well as I do that that's not true.
-
It's not a matter of "deserving" it. It's a matter of trying to help the teen, and wilderness programs DO help a lot. It's another matter to keep the lessons going after the program, however.
The above poster is obviously one of the dissatisfied customers- in the minority by a long ways.
Agree that the myth of innocent program attendees is just that- a myth. Kids that make it to wilderness are really struggling with some serious issues and need a "time out" from their life at home to figure it all out. They are not sociopaths (some might be) and they are not being punished- they are simply being given the opportunity to turn things around for themselves with some excellent professional help.
-
It serves the purpose of giving parents a break from their difficult duty of managing their troubled teens lives for them. The myth of innocence among program students is greatly exaggerated.
Guilt? Innocence? Those are words are evoked when describing punishment for crimes. But you are providing "treatment", I thought.
People aren't "guilty" or "innocent" of mental illness. What these cults do is get people to confuse mental illness with being naughty.. The parents can feel angry at their child's “guiltâ€
-
they are VERY dangerous. They know the secrets of human oppression, manipulation, and destruction for personal game. And they aren't afraid to use these secrets to their advantage
Sounds a lot like my ex-wife.
-
Second Nature is not a cult program and its principals are not sociopaths. They are highly educated therapists and care tremendously about each kid that goes through the program. They have no desire to harm or oppress anyone.
The teens who are there are, for the most part, young adults who were behaving very destructively and were in danger of seriously hurting themselves or others by their conduct, or else in danger of eliminating all chances for a positive future. Parents who don't care would just kick them out of the house and never give it a second thought instead of giving their child a chance to learn and grow in a therapeutic wilderness environment.
-
Second Nature is not a cult program and its principals are not sociopaths. They are highly educated therapists and care tremendously about each kid that goes through the program. They have no desire to harm or oppress anyone.
The teens who are there are, for the most part, young adults who were behaving very destructively and were in danger of seriously hurting themselves or others by their conduct, or else in danger of eliminating all chances for a positive future. Parents who don't care would just kick them out of the house and never give it a second thought instead of giving their child a chance to learn and grow in a therapeutic wilderness environment.
Actually, "just kicking your kid out of the house" is illegal. You must have been absent that day in general knowledge class, as a highly educated therapist. Fictitous being, what is your supposed connection to second nature,which was set up by a former abducter and forced march overseer from aspen education.
-
It's not a matter of "deserving" it.
Ok.
It's a matter of trying to help the teen, and wilderness programs DO help a lot.
How? Prove it. 30 years among scores of programs and no fucking evidence yet. Ho hum.
It's another matter to keep the lessons going after the program, however.
You mean when the brainwashing wears off when the reinforcement is gone?
The above poster is obviously one of the dissatisfied customers- in the minority by a long ways.
If you say so. I'm still waiting to see proof they do any help at all.
Agree that the myth of innocent program attendees is just that- a myth.
Says who? You?
Kids that make it to wilderness are really struggling with some serious issues and need a "time out" from their life at home to figure it all out.
a) Says who? There is no criteria for being sent off to a program except if the parent has the money and signs off on it. You can't say they have serious issues because there is no diagnostics and no criteria for them at all what so fucking ever!
b) "Time out" is helpful how? What medical criteria exists for that from a therapeutic standpoint. How is isolation and seclusion GOOD or USEFUL at all? Its rather punitive and makes people suffer to go through, but I guess because some two-bit programmie says so it is so? You're using terms that demean and make light of what is actually being done to try to condone it.
Being stuck with people who treat you bad who you have to depend on for survival in an austere, shitty environment is not therapeutic. Not for a day, not for months - its pretty fucking obvious what its about to anyone who has any empathy or imagination at all.
They are not sociopaths (some might be) and they are not being punished- they are simply being given the opportunity to turn things around for themselves with some excellent professional help.
So being around under or non-trained twats in the woods, filthy and depending on the same people who instigate emotional and psychological suffering upon you for months on end, completely isolated and trapped and coerced is an "opportunity" to "turn things around".. how so? How does talking about what someone makes you talk about and having your buttons pushed in the woods or a desert help anything?
Why the isolation?
And how are they excellent professionals?? Where are the credentials or the proof this shit fucking works at all?
-
According to you, having the kid "abducted" is also illegal. I guess you think parents should allow a teen to destroy the family and property and continue to do whatever he or she wants to do. What will it be? Wilderness and a chance at repairing the damage that has been done and saving the kid's future or life on the streets?
Have you met the principals of Second Nature? No, I didn't think so.
-
It's people like you who complain about Guantanimo.
-
According to you, having the kid "abducted" is also illegal. I guess you think parents should allow a teen to destroy the family and property and continue to do whatever he or she wants to do. What will it be? Wilderness and a chance at repairing the damage that has been done and saving the kid's future or life on the streets?
Have you met the principals of Second Nature? No, I didn't think so.
The parents are more than welcome to actually act like parents from the day their child is born. When the going gets tough they are more than welcome to stick by their child rather than subcontracting out their responsibilites. Much like most parents who send their kids to programs probably did before that point of no return in their child's life. The nannies, the baby sitters, the day cares, the computer, the TV, the wide variety of other things parents rely on to raise their children rather than being arsed to do it themselves.
Frankly parents are more than welcome to a bucket full of shut the fuck up and sit the fuck down for a change. They ought to take the damn time to listen to their kids on a regular basis rather than dismissing them as no essential baggage that takes time away from work, the club, or the golf course.
Second nature sells a false bill of goods. I've seen to many reports from survivors for me to believe in what is being sold by this fraudulent company.
I see the possibility of a strong connection right back to synanon that exists in the company.
The founders came from Aspen Achievement Academy. A notorious haven for CEDU influences from days gone by. If you want to expose your child to an organization that more than likely was influenced from the get go by a cult that is your choice.
Sad fucking deal that you are the one making that choice for your child. In the end really that is what it is mostly about.
Setting aside the abuse, the neglect, and the bullshit none of you miserable excuses of parents should ever have the power to place their kids in these places.
No child in second nature ever got a day in court.
Sad fucking shame that.
-
According to you, having the kid "abducted" is also illegal. I guess you think parents should allow a teen to destroy the family and property and continue to do whatever he or she wants to do. What will it be? Wilderness and a chance at repairing the damage that has been done and saving the kid's future or life on the streets?
Have you met the principals of Second Nature? No, I didn't think so.
So let me get this straight you think it's LEGAL, to "throw a child out of the house?
Answer the question, troll: What is your connection to second nature?
(I'm guessing your going to claim that you're a parent. Then you hide our financial motivation, without having to give day to day details of life inside, which is harder for people to fake)
It is illegal to hire people to abduct your child. The trouble is, unlike the law of abandonment, this law is not routinely enforced. Sometimes it is, though. Parents have been found guilty of child endangerment when tying to send their kids to TB. Kids are reluctant to persue charges against their own parents, and DA's are reluctant to take these cases. A kid was BEATEN to death in the a floridian boot camp. The beaters were found not guilty because "pain compliance" was an approved tactic by the boot camp. This beating death was video-taped. It's hard to get the laws enforced, but they're there. And it;s only a matter of time before some kid, who is willing to cause suffering to his parents, and finds an honest and brave DA, persues charges
-
Why are you talking about TB and Florida boot camps? I thought this was about Second Nature. Oh wait, you really don't know anything about Second Nature that is bad, do you?
Interesting how the kids who attend Second Nature don't seem to be flocking to this thread or this forum at all? Could they possibly have gotten a lot of benefit from the program and moved on with their lives?
I have plenty of knowledge about what goes on at the program and there are many kids who will share their experiences with you. They hate it when they arrive, but within a few weeks they realize it is where they need to be. Yes, there are exceptions. If a kid is not suited to Second Nature or has serious psychiatric issues, the staff will refer them somewhere else. They are not in it for the money. It is long, hard days and a lot of hard work running a therapeutic program.
-
Parents have been found guilty of child endangerment when tying to send their kids to TB.
Never happened.
-
If a kid is not suited to Second Nature or has serious psychiatric issues, the staff will refer them somewhere else. They are not in it for the money.
lol
-
The kids who are not happy with the program are typically the ones who never finished or didnt apply themselves. The other 99.9% have benefitted, moved on.
-
The kids who are not happy with the program are typically the ones who never finished or didnt apply themselves. The other 99.9% have benefitted, moved on.
Prove it
-
The kids who are not happy with the program are typically the ones who never finished or didnt apply themselves. The other 99.9% have benefitted, moved on.
Prove it
Just the way it is!! Look around you, who do you see? You sound like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
...
-
Anecdotal "evidence" from an anonymous program supporter means nothing. Please show CLINICAL evidence that Second Nature is effective at healing psychosis or sociopathy. Otherwise, you're just another full-of-shit shill...
Post the clinical trials that prove what you're saying or shut up.
Please. I'm still waiting for your answer. Please show the clinical evidence that Second Nature is effective at treating mental/social disorders.
-
Anecdotal "evidence" from an anonymous program critic means nothing. Please show CLINICAL evidence that Second Nature is abusive. Otherwise, you're just another full-of-shit liar...
Post the evidence that proves what you're saying or shut up.
-
All Second Nature and TBS did was provide ammo for a child to run and go underground. Luckily, there is a relationship with his parents but it's shaky.
Compliance is not acceptance.
-
Anecdotal "evidence" from an anonymous program critic means nothing. Please show CLINICAL evidence that Second Nature is abusive. Otherwise, you're just another full-of-shit liar...
Post the evidence that proves what you're saying or shut up.
Damn right. Lots of talk, but when you ask them to back it up with evidence they come up with zilch. Keep on truckin' buddy, it sure is nice to see someone out there with a BRAIN for a change... This site is full of retards!
-
I have plenty of knowledge about what goes on at the program and there are many kids who will share their experiences with you
have them come here then coward.
You have knowledge with the program? Have you seen the Duchesne office? Met the robotic Mormons? Met the robotic LDA citizens of the town who quietly look away at all the "rich kids who screwed up". Have you seen the weathered faces of the kids who are on forced marches and solos? Oh wait, seeing another being humilated is therapuetic.
Have you been on an overnight transition? Witness the Stepford-like acceptance of program kids in Transiton so those kids can leave hell?
Waiting for an answer.
-
I have plenty of knowledge about what goes on at the program and there are many kids who will share their experiences with you
have them come here then coward.
You have knowledge with the program? Have you seen the Duchesne office? Met the robotic Mormons? Met the robotic LDA citizens of the town who quietly look away at all the "rich kids who screwed up". Have you seen the weathered faces of the kids who are on forced marches and solos? Oh wait, seeing another being humilated is therapuetic.
Have you been on an overnight transition? Witness the Stepford-like acceptance of program kids in Transiton so those kids can leave hell?
Waiting for an answer.
I think everyone is waiting for clinical studies, no one is accepting individual accounts or word of mouth anymore.
...
-
I have plenty of knowledge about what goes on at the program and there are many kids who will share their experiences with you
have them come here then coward.
You have knowledge with the program? Have you seen the Duchesne office? Met the robotic Mormons? Met the robotic LDA citizens of the town who quietly look away at all the "rich kids who screwed up". Have you seen the weathered faces of the kids who are on forced marches and solos? Oh wait, seeing another being humilated is therapuetic.
Have you been on an overnight transition? Witness the Stepford-like acceptance of program kids in Transiton so those kids can leave hell?
Waiting for an answer.
I think everyone is waiting for clinical studies, no one is accepting individual accounts or word of mouth anymore.
...
Where are the clinical studies then, thou carbuncle infested old hack?
-
Anecdotal "evidence" from an anonymous program critic means nothing. Please show CLINICAL evidence that Second Nature is abusive. Otherwise, you're just another full-of-shit liar...
Post the evidence that proves what you're saying or shut up.
Damn right. Lots of talk, but when you ask them to back it up with evidence they come up with zilch. Keep on truckin' buddy, it sure is nice to see someone out there with a BRAIN for a change... This site is full of retards!
I never said it was abusive, although I think it is.
But I asked you a simple question: Where is the clinical evidence that Second Nature's "brand" of "therapy" works in any way, shape or form?
Please answer that question for me.
BTW, this anon poster is the one FKA "Wild Fig," just so you know who you're dealing with here - one of the most prolific trolls ever to grace fornits.
-
Anecdotal "evidence" from an anonymous program critic means nothing. Please show CLINICAL evidence that Second Nature is abusive. Otherwise, you're just another full-of-shit liar...
Post the evidence that proves what you're saying or shut up.
Are you joking? Can humans exist that are so ignorant? Of COURSE there's no such thing as "clinical evidenceâ€
-
Anecdotal "evidence" from an anonymous program critic means nothing. Please show CLINICAL evidence that Second Nature is abusive. Otherwise, you're just another full-of-shit liar...
Post the evidence that proves what you're saying or shut up.
Damn right. Lots of talk, but when you ask them to back it up with evidence they come up with zilch. Keep on truckin' buddy, it sure is nice to see someone out there with a BRAIN for a change... This site is full of retards!
I never said it was abusive, although I think it is.
But I asked you a simple question: Where is the clinical evidence that Second Nature's "brand" of "therapy" works in any way, shape or form?
Please answer that question for me.
BTW, this anon poster is the one FKA "Wild Fig," just so you know who you're dealing with here - one of the most prolific trolls ever to grace fornits.
We are waiting for the clinical studies that show the program to be abusive. There are some people here who claim it is.
Just provide a link
-
Anecdotal "evidence" from an anonymous program critic means nothing. Please show CLINICAL evidence that Second Nature is abusive. Otherwise, you're just another full-of-shit liar...
Post the evidence that proves what you're saying or shut up.
Are you joking? Can humans exist that are so ignorant? Of COURSE there's no such thing as "clinical evidenceâ€
-
Anecdotal "evidence" from an anonymous program critic means nothing. Please show CLINICAL evidence that Second Nature is abusive. Otherwise, you're just another full-of-shit liar...
Post the evidence that proves what you're saying or shut up.
Damn right. Lots of talk, but when you ask them to back it up with evidence they come up with zilch. Keep on truckin' buddy, it sure is nice to see someone out there with a BRAIN for a change... This site is full of retards!
I never said it was abusive, although I think it is.
But I asked you a simple question: Where is the clinical evidence that Second Nature's "brand" of "therapy" works in any way, shape or form?
Please answer that question for me.
BTW, this anon poster is the one FKA "Wild Fig," just so you know who you're dealing with here - one of the most prolific trolls ever to grace fornits.
We are waiting for the clinical studies that show the program to be abusive. There are some people here who claim it is.
Just provide a link
Your intellect is tragically, hopelessly non-functional. Abuse is reported, not studied in clinical trials.
Now, Second Nature is selling a service which you and they claim to be "successful" at "treating" teens with various and sundry pathologies. Please show the clinical trial data that shows attendees of SN show statistically significant improvemnt of their professionally diagnosed presenting problems.
It's not that deep of a concept.
-
Anecdotal "evidence" from an anonymous program critic means nothing. Please show CLINICAL evidence that Second Nature is abusive. Otherwise, you're just another full-of-shit liar...
Post the evidence that proves what you're saying or shut up.
Damn right. Lots of talk, but when you ask them to back it up with evidence they come up with zilch. Keep on truckin' buddy, it sure is nice to see someone out there with a BRAIN for a change... This site is full of retards!
I never said it was abusive, although I think it is.
But I asked you a simple question: Where is the clinical evidence that Second Nature's "brand" of "therapy" works in any way, shape or form?
Please answer that question for me.
BTW, this anon poster is the one FKA "Wild Fig," just so you know who you're dealing with here - one of the most prolific trolls ever to grace fornits.
We are waiting for the clinical studies that show the program to be abusive. There are some people here who claim it is.
Just provide a link
There are no studies, just stories, trust me, dont hold your breath. Second Nature has been very successful.
-
A Mom- Yes, I have been to transition, to the Duchesne office and met all of the principals and many other staff. I have interviewed several of the lead therapists and have spent many hours studying Second Nature. I am more impressed with the program and the staff all the time. It continues to develop and improve and has impacted many families in an astonishingly positive way.
-
even if there were clinical studies what would they be based on anyway? Because if it was " good behaviour" I would not be surprised if some kids were scared straight. What any study would need to show is the direct link between the mean spirited camp and the the ability to cure in the long term mental illness, drug addiction as well as every other catchall bogus illness like oppositional defiant disorder. It would have to compare the kids to those with exactly the same symptoms in places that do not have second nature or any other such ridiculous camps. Where would they even get a sample group that wide outside of the tbs system? Most professional drug counsellors, doctors or psychs dont have the levelt of hubris required to believe that they can cure such a wide range of complex issues with a single program or philosophy. It is only the buffoons within this industry who do.
-
even if there were clinical studies what would they be based on anyway? Because if it was " good behaviour" I would not be surprised if some kids were scared straight. What any study would need to show is the direct link between the mean spirited camp and the the ability to cure in the long term mental illness, drug addiction as well as every other catchall bogus illness like oppositional defiant disorder. It would have to compare the kids to those with exactly the same symptoms in places that do not have second nature or any other such ridiculous camps. Where would they even get a sample group that wide outside of the tbs system? Most professional drug counsellors, doctors or psychs dont have the levelt of hubris required to believe that they can cure such a wide range of complex issues with a single program or philosophy. It is only the buffoons within this industry who do.
One approach......The study could consist of a large sample of children who attend a program over time. The children could be loosely classified (i.e. ADD, drug problems, depression etc.) The programs could be classified (i.e. TBS, Wilderness, boot camp) (maybe a sub category on model used at TBS) and children who did not attend a program (ADD, drug problems, depression) treatment could be categorized as (none or local therapist etc.).
If the samples were large enough many of the nuances would shake themselves out (i.e. degree of depression, level of ADD, predisposed to addiction etc.)… if the kids were tracked for 5+ years after treatment a trend may surface and differences should be able to be measured between treatment methods and non treatment.
Much thought would have to go into setting up the study and screening the children as participants as well as to have a large enough sample to allow for fall out (kids who drop out or stop seeing their therapist).
...
-
I'm willing to go with my instincts on this subject of programs. My instincts say burn em all down.
Take your study and shove it.
Anyone got some matches?
-
OzGirl- This is not a "mean spirited camp". It also does not claim to cure all ills or disorders. It is an opportunity to get therapeutic help in the outdoor environment, learn many wilderness skills (which gives the kids a lot of pride and sense of accompishment) and take a needed break from the dysfunction that has developed at home, school and in the community. The kids do a solo for 1 to 2 days, where they are by themselves at a campsite, read, write and take care of themselves. This is all good- the therapeutic techniques are successful. Yes, there is some coercion involved and there may be some harsh words. Welcome to life. These are kids who need a good kick in the ass and parents who do as well. Both get said kick! If you think the therapists are gentle with the parents, you are sorely wrong.
-
OzGirl- This is not a "mean spirited camp". ............... Yes, there is some coercion involved and there may be some harsh words..........
Lols.. epic..
taken from their own homepage
It also does not claim to cure all ills or disorders
Teen Depression
Learning Differences
Processing Disorder (Visual, Auditory)
Oppositional Defiant Disorder
Mild Eating Disorder Treatment
Attention Deficit Disorder
Gender Specific Issues
Self-Mutilation Treatment (Cutting)
Reactive Attachment Disorder Treatment (Attachment Disorder)
Social skill deficits: non-verbal learning disorders and Asperger traits (or PDD)
Substance Abuse
They treat all this with their once a week visit from the "therapist"?
Wank wank wank...
-
Even more entertaining.. All of the founders worked for Aspen programs before starting SN.
All of them went to Bingham Young University.
I'm pretty sure all of them are mormons.
I bet if I dig around more I can make a connection to these shitbags to a wwasp program/owner.
-
Treating and curing are not the same thing. Where do they claim you emerge "cured"? Don't we all wish it were that easy?
The therapist is in the field for 2 days and is in daily contact with the staff and weekly (or more) with the family. The therapist is very closely involved with each kid- you are trying to make it sound like this is fly-by therapy. It is not. How often does a kid see his or her therapist at home? Usually once a week- maybe twice if there is a really generous insurance plan. The kid sits in a chair in front of the shrink for an hour, then leaves the room and dismisses everything that was said. Easy to see how the contained environment of wilderness is preferable to this as a treatment model.
-
Now now.. don't back pedal..
You claimed they don't treat everything. On their own web page it lists a very broad selection of problems that they do treat.
You claimed that it isn't a harsh program and yet in the same post their is some coercion and some strong words.
Second torture is just another snake nest rip off scam like Amway or a damn Ponzi scheme.
Normally when someone says, "OH MY GOD it worked for my child!"
I'm always trying to be first to ask,"So are you really saying, there wasn't anything that much wrong with your kid to begin with and that you are admitting your some sorry assed twat who outsourced your own kid to a bunch of necrophialic sheep herders?"
-
WE SPECIALIZE IN:
- Substance Abuse - Hyperactivity
- Anger - Oppositional Behavior
- Attachment Issues - Identity Issues
- Teen Depression - Manipulation Fueled by High IQ
- Sexually Acting Out - Attention
- Deficit Disorder Impulsivity - Learning Challenges
jesus christ the list gets even longer on the front page.
This isn't looking good at all.
-
I'm willing to go with my instincts on this subject of programs. My instincts say burn em all down.
Take your study and shove it.
Anyone got some matches?
Why dont people here want to see studies done?
-
Isn't it funny how these program assholes try to come on here and convince readers that programs "aren't as damaging as they're made out to be" by the victims that have already BEEN THROUGH THEM. Goddamn, sometimes I wish they all had ONE NECK that I could get my hands around............stupid corrupt fuckers.
-
I'm willing to go with my instincts on this subject of programs. My instincts say burn em all down.
Take your study and shove it.
Anyone got some matches?
Why dont people want to see studies done?
-
Because we don't need some pin head shrink or sociologist to tell us that what goes on in programs is wrong. We have our own experiences that does that nicely enough.
-
Isn't it funny how these program assholes try to come on here and convince readers that programs "aren't as damaging as they're made out to be" by the victims that have already BEEN THROUGH THEM. Goddamn, sometimes I wish they all had ONE NECK that I could get my hands around............stupid corrupt fuckers.
what you are missing is the information is coming from parents and kids who went thru the program. (Just not from the few angry ones like yourselve).
-
I'm willing to go with my instincts on this subject of programs. My instincts say burn em all down.
Take your study and shove it.
Anyone got some matches?
Why dont people want to see studies done?
This was my expected response from most here on fornits. Many here hide behind studies that haven’t been done and hope that none are done. The thought of putting it all on the table, running a study which would show how effective these places are would essentially bring all your arguments to a halt and I think that scares most of you because that would force you to look elsewhere for the root cause of your anger (maybe inward?).
Once the studies show that 99.9% of the kids do well how could you justify (to yourself) that the school was at fault and on top of that you couldn’t blame your parents anymore for their decision to send you (sort of a double hit most of you would take).
The scarcity of studies is what keeps everyone here going.
...
-
Lols.. my ass.. there is at best only one to two proSecond nature posters on this whole thread.
You think we give a shit if this little snake nest actually does any good or not?
Hell no.
I'll tell you why and I'll make it simple.
NO parent.. NO program... Not one single son of a bitch on this earth should have the power to force a kid into a program.
Every single kid deserves representation to prove the need for treatment from a reputable treatment center.
SNWP is a snakenest that promises treatment from dandruff to veneral disease. On top of it on this thread we've seen reputable reports from survivors of the program showing us the only treatment that goes on their is clearly a crock of shit.
Keep spinning... and keep failing..
You'll win no converts here.
-
I'm willing to go with my instincts on this subject of programs. My instincts say burn em all down.
Take your study and shove it.
Anyone got some matches?
Why dont people want to see studies done?
This was my expected response from most here on fornits. Many here hide behind studies that haven’t been done and hope that none are done. The thought of putting it all on the table, running a study which would show how effective these places are would essentially bring all your arguments to a halt and I think that scares most of you because that would force you to look elsewhere for the root cause of your anger (maybe inward?).
Once the studies show that 99.9% of the kids do well how could you justify (to yourself) that the school was at fault and on top of that you couldn’t blame your parents anymore for their decision to send you (sort of a double hit most of you would take).
The scarcity of studies is what keeps everyone here going.
...
Effectiveness has nothing to do with it.
The deprivation of civil liberties has everything to do with it. To top it off the reports on this thread show a clear disregard for human rights as well that occur at this shitpit on a daily basis.
Fuck the studies.
Get me some gasoline and burn baby burn.
-
fornits has had the opportunity and information to organize some data but has never done it (or more accurately never posted it) because it would show trends that are not too favorable to their position. We would see that out of the 500 or so programs only a handful are ineffective which would blow their position that the entire industry is bad. This is why people dont name the schools, they just make blanket statements about the industry to keep it vague.
I organized a small segment of data (suicides and Homicides) which once I posted here didnt fit their argument and have since rejected it (although to date no one could find an error in the data).
There are a reported (up to 30,000 kids) who attend these programs each year and maybe five or six come here to report problems. Your ivy league schools get more complaints than that.
Organized data is not accepted at fornits so we wont be seeing much of it readily posted here anytime soon.
-
fornits has had the opportunity and information to organize some data but has never done it (or more accurately never posted it) because it would show trends that are not too favorable to their position. We would see that out of the 500 or so programs only a handful are ineffective which would blow their position that the entire industry is bad. This is why people dont name the schools, they just make blanket statements about the industry to keep it vague.
I organized a small segment of data (suicides and Homicides) which once I posted here didnt fit their argument and have since rejected it (although to date no one could find an error in the data).
There are a reported (up to 30,000 kids) who attend these programs each year and maybe five or six come here to report problems. Your ivy league schools get more complaints than that.
Organized data is not accepted at fornits so we wont be seeing much of it readily posted here anytime soon.
What a cast-iron crock of shit this is. Anyone who knows anything about these places knows that this is far from the truth.
-
fornits has had the opportunity and information to organize some data but has never done it (or more accurately never posted it) because it would show trends that are not too favorable to their position. We would see that out of the 500 or so programs only a handful are ineffective which would blow their position that the entire industry is bad. This is why people dont name the schools, they just make blanket statements about the industry to keep it vague.
I organized a small segment of data (suicides and Homicides) which once I posted here didnt fit their argument and have since rejected it (although to date no one could find an error in the data).
There are a reported (up to 30,000 kids) who attend these programs each year and maybe five or six come here to report problems. Your ivy league schools get more complaints than that.
Organized data is not accepted at fornits so we wont be seeing much of it readily posted here anytime soon.
What a cast-iron crock of shit this is. Anyone who knows anything about these places knows that this is far from the truth.
Fornits has a golden opportunity to organize and collect data....number of programs, names of programs, types etc.... but has never done it or reported the results. A simple Pareto showing the top 5 programs with complaints reported here at fornits would be a good start.
I think we all know why (because the results would not support the position held here) and it is easier to turn a blind eye to the facts and just use the gasoline and match mentality as mentioned above.
...
-
Fornits is a MESSAGE BOARD, dumbass. Not an organization built to collect data. Cripes, shut the fuck up already with your nonsense.
The INDUSTRY has had over THIRTY YEARS to provide evidence of efficacy and has provided exactly NOTHING.
TheWho, you are an asshole. A know-nothing asshole at that.
-
fornits has had the opportunity and information to organize some data but has never done it (or more accurately never posted it) because it would show trends that are not too favorable to their position. We would see that out of the 500 or so programs only a handful are ineffective which would blow their position that the entire industry is bad. This is why people dont name the schools, they just make blanket statements about the industry to keep it vague.
I organized a small segment of data (suicides and Homicides) which once I posted here didnt fit their argument and have since rejected it (although to date no one could find an error in the data).
There are a reported (up to 30,000 kids) who attend these programs each year and maybe five or six come here to report problems. Your ivy league schools get more complaints than that.
Organized data is not accepted at fornits so we wont be seeing much of it readily posted here anytime soon.
What a cast-iron crock of shit this is. Anyone who knows anything about these places knows that this is far from the truth.
Fornits has a golden opportunity to organize and collect data....number of programs, names of programs, types etc.... but has never done it or reported the results. A simple Pareto showing the top 5 programs with complaints reported here at fornits would be a good start.
I think we all know why (because the results would not support the position held here) and it is easier to turn a blind eye to the facts and just use the gasoline and match mentality as mentioned above.
So let's do it then, and no bullshit stats, Who. Why don't you start a thread and call it "Program Statistics" or something and get it started. I suspect you may be refraining from doing this for your own reasons, but what the hell, why not at least give you a chance to start the thread to take advantage of the golden opportunity, haha.
Get to it!
-
It is very obvious from this MESSAGE BOARD that there are very few Second Nature attendees with anything negative to say. There is a poster purporting to be A Mom who obviously got sideways with the management (perhaps got sued for not paying her bill?) and seems to hate Mormons (could explain why little Johnny has issues) and perhaps one teen who actually attended and didn't like the harshness- probably objected to hiking off his fat. Where are the many, many teens who went through the program, may or may not have gotten off-track again, but STILL recognize Second Nature as a valid program with a positive impact on them.
You may get a lot of people from Straight, Benchmark, WWASP and other less reputable, and admittedly harmful programs here to report abuse, but as Who keeps pointing out, you simply aren't getting that same thing about MOST of the other programs.
-
fornits has had the opportunity and information to organize some data but has never done it (or more accurately never posted it) because it would show trends that are not too favorable to their position. We would see that out of the 500 or so programs only a handful are ineffective which would blow their position that the entire industry is bad. This is why people dont name the schools, they just make blanket statements about the industry to keep it vague.
I organized a small segment of data (suicides and Homicides) which once I posted here didnt fit their argument and have since rejected it (although to date no one could find an error in the data).
There are a reported (up to 30,000 kids) who attend these programs each year and maybe five or six come here to report problems. Your ivy league schools get more complaints than that.
Organized data is not accepted at fornits so we wont be seeing much of it readily posted here anytime soon.
What a cast-iron crock of shit this is. Anyone who knows anything about these places knows that this is far from the truth.
Fornits has a golden opportunity to organize and collect data....number of programs, names of programs, types etc.... but has never done it or reported the results. A simple Pareto showing the top 5 programs with complaints reported here at fornits would be a good start.
I think we all know why (because the results would not support the position held here) and it is easier to turn a blind eye to the facts and just use the gasoline and match mentality as mentioned above.
So let's do it then, and no bullshit stats, Who. Why don't you start a thread and call it "Program Statistics" or something and get it started. I suspect you may be refraining from doing this for your own reasons, but what the hell, why not at least give you a chance to start the thread to take advantage of the golden opportunity, haha.
Get to it!
That was the exact same response I got when I asked for help to pull together statistics for program deaths. I wondered why the “MESSAGE BOARDâ€
-
Once data is collected and analyzed statistically by a COMPETENT PROFESSIONAL ANALYST i'm open to reviewing and discussing the results. You, TheWho, are a dingbat, liar and wholly incompetent. Your "data" is worth exactly dick.
Do what you did about your parenting, Who. CONTRACT OUT the data collection and analysis. All it takes is your money and you go on and on about how much excess cash you have, so commission and fund the study. If you'd pay someone else to raise your child, why not pay someone else to do a study? But your data is worthless because of your, let's say it nicely, "credibility gap."
-
Gender Specific Issues
That made me lol in particular. Their "specialization" there involved pretty much telling me, a diagnosed lifelong transsexual, "SHUT UP. YOU'RE A GUY, SINNER. STOP FUCKING WITH OUR HAPPY MORMON WORLDVIEW."
But it's not a "mean spirited camp", of course! It gave me a lot of pride and a sense of accomplishment! I totally needed a good kick in the ass for being depressed about a problem no one would touch!
oh. Wait.
Fuck the studies.
Get me some gasoline and burn baby burn.
I am curious, though, as to how you're going to burn down a desert. >.>
-
That was the exact same response I got when I asked for help to pull together statistics for program deaths. I wondered why the “MESSAGE BOARDâ€
-
Again, you lie so much here that any "data" you present must be discarded. The source is no good, so the "data" is no good. You simply aren't up to the task.
-
Ah, a mediocre troll reveals themselves. ^.^
-
Again, you lie so much here that any "data" you present must be discarded. The source is no good, so the "data" is no good. You simply aren't up to the task.
The source of the data is fornits, so you might have a point.
-
Again, you lie so much here that any "data" you present must be discarded. The source is no good, so the "data" is no good. You simply aren't up to the task.
The source of the data is fornits, so you might have a point.
Again, dummy, fornits is a message board, not an organization of data collectors. God, you're painfully stupid.
The source of any data is the programs themselves. You ask why there is "no data"? Well, because there is no mechanism for kids to report their abuse and the programs have a vested interest in keeping it out of the public's eye.
You dopes must have failed basic logic classes miserably. PROGRAMS claim to be effective. Therefore it is incumbent upon them to provide evidence thereof. 30 plus years and...NOTHING.
-
Again, you lie so much here that any "data" you present must be discarded. The source is no good, so the "data" is no good. You simply aren't up to the task.
The source of the data is fornits, so you might have a point.
Again, dummy, fornits is a message board, not an organization of data collectors. God, you're painfully stupid.
The source of any data is the programs themselves. You ask why there is "no data"? Well, because there is no mechanism for kids to report their abuse and the programs have a vested interest in keeping it out of the public's eye.
You dopes must have failed basic logic classes miserably. PROGRAMS claim to be effective. Therefore it is incumbent upon them to provide evidence thereof. 30 plus years and...NOTHING.
You should go back and reread the thread. The data being collected is independent of the programs. The data is going to show which programs are represented here on fornits, programs donot have this information, you got all excited for no reason.
-
so how will you account for thousands of unreported abuse cases? seems like your data will be worthless, as your model is a steaming pile. sorry, but it's true. you're not cut out for this type of exercise. your intelligence and education don't provide you the necessary intellectual horsepower to complete this task. that's apparent.
-
so how will you account for thousands of unreported abuse cases? seems like your data will be worthless, as your model is a steaming pile. sorry, but it's true. you're not cut out for this type of exercise. your intelligence and education don't provide you the necessary intellectual horsepower to complete this task. that's apparent.
Ha,Ha,Ha Sorry you have trouble reading, but we are taking a snap shot at the types of programs that are represented here on fornits, no place else. It wont be reporting abuse ....just a cross section of representation during a predefined time period... the boundary conditions will be simple (one year, a single post or more, program name will define a single data point).....Probably be presented in a pareto type format.
It will give new comers an idea of which programs are represented most here on fornits, it should prove interesting to the rest of us. If it proves to give you heartburn you can just ignore it, there is plenty of data that I choose to ignore because I dont agree with a particular boundary condition or the source of information is not broad enough, it sometimes motivates me to have a separate study done just to compare results.
...
-
OzGirl- This is not a "mean spirited camp". It also does not claim to cure all ills or disorders. It is an opportunity to get therapeutic help in the outdoor environment, learn many wilderness skills (which gives the kids a lot of pride and sense of accompishment) and take a needed break from the dysfunction that has developed at home, school and in the community. The kids do a solo for 1 to 2 days, where they are by themselves at a campsite, read, write and take care of themselves. This is all good- the therapeutic techniques are successful. Yes, there is some coercion involved and there may be some harsh words. Welcome to life. These are kids who need a good kick in the ass and parents who do as well. Both get said kick! If you think the therapists are gentle with the parents, you are sorely wrong.
Perhaps you can explain to me what is not mean spirited about a group punishment like getting all kids out of bed to hike because one broke the rules? Or being forced to read an impact letter full of very raw private emotions to a group of semi strangers? How many parents would willingly do the same at work or at the local golf club or church?
This idea that everyone needs a good kick in the ass is erroneous too. If you look at the Second nature website you will see that along with delinquency self harm, aspergers and clinical depression are all "treated" with the second nature kick in the ass. So are learning differences. Why should a kid with a genuine medical condition be punished for it? How precisely does such a kick in the ass literally or figeratively help a kid with Aspergers? What school of psychiatry recommends this as a treatment for clinical depression.
You also erroneously assume that I fit into the camp who believes that parents who choose this option are all bad people. This is not so. I appreciate that due to a variety of circumstances many feel that this is the answer that will make their unhappy child whole again. I don't believe in tough love for either kids or their parents. It is assinine and barbaric regardless of who is on the receiving end. But no kid can vote with their feet and opt out the way a parent can.
-
ok, then. go ahead and get on it. enjoy. just go into it understanding that because of your history of lying and manipulating you won't be believed by anyone except the most raw newcomer. have at it!
-
ok, then. go ahead and get on it. enjoy. just go into it understanding that because of your history of lying and manipulating you won't be believed by anyone except the most raw newcomer. have at it!
this was @ thewho...
-
I went to second nature... and it was the dumbest thing ever. My parents sent me away for smoking ciggarettes and ditching school once and they think having me camp out with a bunch of losers is going to help me. yeah right... my parents are clueless. How come you only see parents coming to this site to support programs... you say the kids liked it... think again you are making shit up.
Good point. Only the folks who paid for this ridiculous sham have nice things to say. I don't see any kids here saying "It was great!" Typical.
-
ok, then. go ahead and get on it. enjoy. just go into it understanding that because of your history of lying and manipulating you won't be believed by anyone except the most raw newcomer. have at it!
You will see as you advance in life that there are always going to be people trying to prevent you from telling the truth (people like yourself) and they are the most dangerous. They will do this by trying to discredit you, calling you a liar and manipulator. Your persisitence shows that you dont want the data to come forward. Some people will see the results as interesting others will not.
Anyone can perform the same study with little effort and resources... if it proves important to you then you can repeat the study utilizing a different snap shot... it would be interesting to compare results and population backgrounds with you.
...
-
I went to second nature... and it was the dumbest thing ever. My parents sent me away for smoking ciggarettes and ditching school once and they think having me camp out with a bunch of losers is going to help me. yeah right... my parents are clueless. How come you only see parents coming to this site to support programs... you say the kids liked it... think again you are making shit up.
Good point. Only the folks who paid for this ridiculous sham have nice things to say. I don't see any kids here saying "It was great!" Typical.
I bet the Impact Letter you got from your parents agreed that you got sent away for smoking cigarettes and ditching school once.....
This is a troll.
The reason the kids aren't here supporting the program is that they have moved on with their lives and can't be bothered. How many are here attacking it? I suspect there is ONE, posting under different names.
-
I suspect there is one dumbass programmie posting the same shit over and over again in an effort to make parents (who have already seen the reality on this thread, so it's a BIT late for that) believe the bullshit, and maybe a dozen pissed off survivors toying with him.
-
You guys can't keep making assumptions that sending a kid to WT or TBS is the first thing a parent does the first time their kid smokes a joint or snorts a line.
I've only gone by what you said. I haven't assumed anything really. I've read what you wrote and commented on what you said.
In any case, I think you are quick to insult others due to what you perceive to be an attack on you when people ask questions and ask you to justify what you say with facts. It's a touchy subject and people don't like to go into details. I understand that to an extent.
I have said it before that I'm glad that your kid is doing better. Who could be upset with a happy, functioning child?
What I object to is that places that use these types of "programs" don't tell the truth about their approach to "treatment." Now. I'm not saying that your program has done this - I wouldn't know. What I do know, however, is that they advertise that they can treat various psychological/social disorders. They advertise that they are successful, yet there is not a single shred of evidence to support this claim.
I can say this universally about all of these programs simply because I stay current on the research being conducted and there is not a single, solitary clinical trial for "wilderness programs" that indicates that they can successfully treat anything whatsoever. Current research indicates that these programs are at best ineffective and at worst damaging.
Mental health treatment must always be conducted under the least restrictive conditions possible. This is a general rule of the discipline. Sending a child to one of these programs against their will is counterintuitive the "least restrictive" philosophy.
Their going voluntarily is rare and is usually coerced or in some cases the children are "kidnapped" from their beds in the middle of the night by paid "escorts" who handcuff your kid and drag him/her from the house in handcuffs, against their will, to be forcibly transported to the program - for a fee, of course.
My point about this has been that if your kid required out of home placement (dangerous to self or others - well below 1% of all cases) then he/she is in need of a level of care that a WP simply cannot deliver.
I'm not saying that there aren't some people in this industry who have good intentions and are trying to help kids.
What I'm saying is that these places, based on the least restrictive care model, are accepting children whose placement there is unwarranted (many) or even dangerous (very few). I'm saying that they're in business to sell a product - like every business sells a product to make profit - and the product they're selling isn't therapy for the kids, it's hope for the parents and it's wrong.
Let's get this discussion back to FACTS and away from TheWho's and the single anon parent who has defended SN for two years in this thread.
There is no evidence that shows these programs work, period. You can't spin it, you can't deny it. It's as obvious as the nose on your face and TheWho and the AnonAngryDisrespectfulSingleSNSupporter know this. This is precisely why they try to drag the dialogue into the gutter and drail the thread. They have nothing to stand on in a fair, level, grounded discussion.
This is why AnonAngryDisrespectfulSingleSNSupporter resorts to name calling and TheWho resorts to fictitious "data." They're logically cornered and would have to admit that the only evidence that SN is effective is their feelings.
TheWho has exactly zero experience with SN; knows nothing of it whatsoever. Never been there, kid never went there, yet he tries to speak as if he's an authority on the subject. It's ridiculous at best, desperate manipulation and prevarication at worst.
-
You never went there, either. What makes YOU such an authority.
And speak of name-calling.......
-
You never went there, either. What makes YOU such an authority.
And speak of name-calling.......
So does anyone have any info about this place, or should this thread just die?
-
I went to second nature... and it was the dumbest thing ever. My parents sent me away for smoking ciggarettes and ditching school once and they think having me camp out with a bunch of losers is going to help me. yeah right... my parents are clueless. How come you only see parents coming to this site to support programs... you say the kids liked it... think again you are making shit up.
I think this guy does, but yeah, it's a hopeless troll thread.
Parents, READ THE PROGRAMMIE POSTS. Just scroll past the survivor shit. Seriously, there's no better reason not to send your kid to these people than if you take a good look at what they write on the Internet.
The statistics could be anything, but arrogance and stupidity are hard to mask.
-
Gender Specific Issues
Fuck the studies.
Get me some gasoline and burn baby burn.
I am curious, though, as to how you're going to burn down a desert. >.>
(http://http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/3186889/2/istockphoto_3186889_man_on_fire.jpg)
^^^^ SNWP founders First and Only Human Torch Contest Day??? OH yeah baby!
-
(http://http://farm1.static.flickr.com/42/108980225_f04e0e2f3d.jpg)
-
Gender Specific Issues
Fuck the studies.
Get me some gasoline and burn baby burn.
I am curious, though, as to how you're going to burn down a desert. >.>
(http://http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/3186889/2/istockphoto_3186889_man_on_fire.jpg)
^^^^ SNWP founders First and Only Human Torch Contest Day??? OH yeah baby!
Talk to me!
(http://http://www.theonion.com/content/files/images/onion_news1425.jpg)
-
Anecdotal "evidence" from an anonymous program critic means nothing. Please show CLINICAL evidence that Second Nature is abusive. Otherwise, you're just another full-of-shit liar...
Post the evidence that proves what you're saying or shut up.
Damn right. Lots of talk, but when you ask them to back it up with evidence they come up with zilch. Keep on truckin' buddy, it sure is nice to see someone out there with a BRAIN for a change... This site is full of retards!
I never said it was abusive, although I think it is.
But I asked you a simple question: Where is the clinical evidence that Second Nature's "brand" of "therapy" works in any way, shape or form?
Please answer that question for me.
BTW, this anon poster is the one FKA "Wild Fig," just so you know who you're dealing with here - one of the most prolific trolls ever to grace fornits.
We are waiting for the clinical studies that show the program to be abusive. There are some people here who claim it is.
Just provide a link
There are no studies, just stories, trust me, dont hold your breath. Second Nature has been very successful.
They admit that there is no evidence to support that their "wildernessâ€
-
This “counselorâ€
-
To the contrary, young people who struggle after a residential program following wilderness still report that the wilderness program (Second Nature in many cases) was the one effective treatment program and that they value it highly. College essays are written about the pride of achieving Air Phase and how their lives turned around. Thank you notes arrive in Duchesne every day from kids who have been through the program.
-
To the contrary, young people who struggle after a residential program following wilderness still report that the wilderness program (Second Nature in many cases) was the one effective treatment program and that they value it highly. College essays are written about the pride of achieving Air Phase and how their lives turned around. Thank you notes arrive in Duchesne every day from kids who have been through the program.
Soooo... No evidence of effectiveness then. OK, you've conceded. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF ANYTHING THIS SHILL PROMOTES.
If a college kid writes an essay about pride resulting from "air phase" of a WT program s/he would become an instant pariah and would then understand how fucked up his/her programming has made him/her. This is one of the most ridiculously false testimonies I've ever read.
Try again, troll bait. This one fails the smell test.
-
To the contrary, young people who struggle after a residential program following wilderness still report that the wilderness program (Second Nature in many cases) was the one effective treatment program and that they value it highly. College essays are written about the pride of achieving Air Phase and how their lives turned around. Thank you notes arrive in Duchesne every day from kids who have been through the program.
Soooo... No evidence of effectiveness then. OK, you've conceded. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF ANYTHING THIS SHILL PROMOTES.
If a college kid writes an essay about pride resulting from "air phase" of a WT program s/he would become an instant pariah and would then understand how fucked up his/her programming has made him/her. This is one of the most ridiculously false testimonies I've ever read.
Try again, troll bait. This one fails the smell test.
Jesus. hehe, it's like a scientologist talking about reaching "enforcer level"
Troll what is your supposed employment at aspen?
-
I want to proclaim death to this thread. :skull:
But on the other hand, it's fairly amusing to witness the attempts claiming its "effectiveness."
-
But on the other hand, it's fairly amusing to witness the attempts claiming its "effectiveness."
(ie the program's effectiveness, not this thread's effectiveness)
-
This “counselorâ€
-
Yes, it's about time people on this thread put up or shut up.
-
“GROUP FOUR!â€
-
This “counselorâ€
-
So the evidence to date shows no child has been abused and no children have died. The fact that SN takes at risk kids and turns them around successfully is enough evidence of its effectiveness.
Until such time as a clinical study is done we will have to rely on first hand knowledge of the parents and children.
(http://http://www.daddygamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/ss_preview_eg_rev_phoenix_004.jpg)
You mean like the firsthand accounts of I and however many others detailing abusive methods with no positive effects?
(btw I know this angry wilderness supporter is a troll, but this is making me giggle)
-
I have read the posts, but see no evidence of abuse, please be more specific. There are thousands of kids who went through this program successfully and all you show is a story about having to go back down the hill to put food back in the bag?
You need to do better than that.
-
I have read the posts, but see no evidence of abuse, please be more specific. There are thousands of kids who went through this program successfully and all you show is a story about having to go back down the hill to put food back in the bag?
You need to do better than that.
As a crazy cult member, you believe that, perhaps. But to people not in your cult, that does it, quite fine.
-
I have read the posts, but see no evidence of abuse, please be more specific. There are thousands of kids who went through this program successfully and all you show is a story about having to go back down the hill to put food back in the bag?
You need to do better than that.
As a crazy cult member, you believe that, perhaps. But to people not in your cult, that does it, quite fine.
Let me step in if I may. Being new here can be confusing to some and it took me awhile to catch onto the lingo also. If you look at the redefinition of the words used here you will see how the language barrier can pose to be problematic
Abduction – Getting a ride, being told what school they are going to
Incarcerated – being grounded, Having a curfew
Abuse – Cleaning your room, doing chores, any outside work, walking in the woods with non designer clothes
Torture – No cell phone, having to start your own fire, cook your own food.
So considering the terms and their uses we can see how many feel their lives were torturous and abusive. But when we look from a legal standpoint no records of abuse, torure, abduction or incarceration have been brought towards these programs. (I am sure there are exceptions)
So we can more easily agree with each other when we listen thru translation.
...
-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak)
nuff said
-
Lain- I guess the part we're missing is the "however many others" that you claim are detailing all the abuse. Just isn't there. Move on.
Good post, Who.
-
Lain- I guess the part we're missing is the "however many others" that you claim are detailing all the abuse. Just isn't there. Move on.
Good post, Who.
^^^^^ TheWho ^^^^^
Plenty have testified (and some even won) cases of abuse. Quit with the bullshit, Who.
-
lulz ^.^
-
Won cases of abuse against Second Nature? OK- let's see the data. PROVE to us that there have been allegations of abuse (in this century) against Second Nature, testimony against Second Nature and actual court cases. What a load of crap.
Lain- were you in Utah or at the softer Georgia program? Who was your therapist? When were you there?
-
Won cases of abuse against Second Nature? OK- let's see the data. PROVE to us that there have been allegations of abuse (in this century) against Second Nature, testimony against Second Nature and actual court cases. What a load of crap.
Sorry, I was referring to the industry in general...carry on.
-
Won cases of abuse against Second Nature? OK- let's see the data. PROVE to us that there have been allegations of abuse (in this century) against Second Nature, testimony against Second Nature and actual court cases. What a load of crap.
Sorry, I was referring to the industry in general...carry on.
The responses are always "The industry in general". This allows people to avoid having to name a specific school or program, which could catch them in a falsehood.
If a person was ever truly abused by a Second Nature staff member they would stand up and say it and name the person who broke the law and get his/her butt in jail so they couldnt hurt another person. They wouldnt allow that person to stay knowing others could be hurt.... but this hasnt happened, instead we get "The industry in general" , so we can safely say no abuse has occured there, just people trying to hurt the program.
This is the same way it occurs in the public school system. If a teacher abuses a student the kid calls the teacher out on their actions and if proven true the teacher is terminated. The kids dont say the public school industry abused me.
...
-
The responses are always "The industry in general". This allows people to avoid having to name a specific school or program, which could catch them in a falsehood....
Always is an absolute and in this case, Who, your assertion couldn't be more fallacious... Are you actually attempting to purport that the people here (survivors and ex-parents alike) have never cited schools in their disclosures of abuse? This has been done diligently again and again here on this goddam forum day in, day out...For you to claim what you did is nothing short of preposterous! You are becoming a caricature of yourself. It's downright absurd sometimes.
-
Because if someone does name names, no one 'gets their butt in jail'. In an absolute worst case scenario, they go work at some other program. And usually not even that.
Anonymous angry SN supporter - I'm not going to entertain your arguments in general anymore, they've sort of lost the novelty of feeding the troll.
As a closing note, while I was in Utah, i'm not divulging anything else because I don't care to become some investigation. I will, however, note that I can't make this shit up - and if I could, what reason do I have to? You, on the other hand, are either on some program's payroll or just a straight-up troll. You have to be providing the proof you so exalt, not me. kthnx.
-
You guys can't keep making assumptions that sending a kid to WT or TBS is the first thing a parent does the first time their kid smokes a joint or snorts a line.
I've only gone by what you said. I haven't assumed anything really. I've read what you wrote and commented on what you said.
In any case, I think you are quick to insult others due to what you perceive to be an attack on you when people ask questions and ask you to justify what you say with facts. It's a touchy subject and people don't like to go into details. I understand that to an extent.
I have said it before that I'm glad that your kid is doing better. Who could be upset with a happy, functioning child?
What I object to is that places that use these types of "programs" don't tell the truth about their approach to "treatment." Now. I'm not saying that your program has done this - I wouldn't know. What I do know, however, is that they advertise that they can treat various psychological/social disorders. They advertise that they are successful, yet there is not a single shred of evidence to support this claim.
I can say this universally about all of these programs simply because I stay current on the research being conducted and there is not a single, solitary clinical trial for "wilderness programs" that indicates that they can successfully treat anything whatsoever. Current research indicates that these programs are at best ineffective and at worst damaging.
Mental health treatment must always be conducted under the least restrictive conditions possible. This is a general rule of the discipline. Sending a child to one of these programs against their will is counterintuitive the "least restrictive" philosophy.
Their going voluntarily is rare and is usually coerced or in some cases the children are "kidnapped" from their beds in the middle of the night by paid "escorts" who handcuff your kid and drag him/her from the house in handcuffs, against their will, to be forcibly transported to the program - for a fee, of course.
My point about this has been that if your kid required out of home placement (dangerous to self or others - well below 1% of all cases) then he/she is in need of a level of care that a WP simply cannot deliver.
I'm not saying that there aren't some people in this industry who have good intentions and are trying to help kids.
What I'm saying is that these places, based on the least restrictive care model, are accepting children whose placement there is unwarranted (many) or even dangerous (very few). I'm saying that they're in business to sell a product - like every business sells a product to make profit - and the product they're selling isn't therapy for the kids, it's hope for the parents and it's wrong.
Let's get this discussion back to FACTS and away from TheWho's and the single anon parent who has defended SN for two years in this thread.
There is no evidence that shows these programs work, period. You can't spin it, you can't deny it. It's as obvious as the nose on your face and TheWho and the AnonAngryDisrespectfulSingleSNSupporter know this. This is precisely why they try to drag the dialogue into the gutter and drail the thread. They have nothing to stand on in a fair, level, grounded discussion.
This is why AnonAngryDisrespectfulSingleSNSupporter resorts to name calling and TheWho resorts to fictitious "data." They're logically cornered and would have to admit that the only evidence that SN is effective is their feelings.
TheWho has exactly zero experience with SN; knows nothing of it whatsoever. Never been there, kid never went there, yet he tries to speak as if he's an authority on the subject. It's ridiculous at best, desperate manipulation and prevarication at worst.
We still haven't got past the fact that the premise that this place was built upon is faulty (to say the least). This parent and TheWho are just spewing the party line - the same old hackneyed tripe. "Prove it doesn't work!" "We don't need studies, just stories!" (But, curiously, not the stories of the abused or the studies of mainsteam professionals...how...odd :roll: )
These two are shills and a cursory examination of their handiwork reveals this inescapable fact. A pair of bunk artists, nothing more.
Captcha: "imperative posted"
-
So it seems we may be at an impasse. Clinical studies are not automatically performed in all areas. They are great to have but the lack of them doesn’t dictate a conclusion either way. To say a program is ineffective because of a lack of studies is ludicrous. If the parents and kids that pass through the programs find them to be effective then they are!! The parents and kids that find them to be ineffective are also correct (wilderness doesn’t work for everyone).
As far as abuse goes, we haven’t seen any evidence. Lain gave us a story about a person who had to walk back down the trail and place a sausage into the food bag, which didn’t seem to be anything to call the police on.
So to recap: The effectiveness of Second Nature wilderness varies based on the individual from extremely effective to not effective at all, with no evidence of abuse (or negative effects).
...
-
The jury is out, Who.
-
Unless you're Randall Hinton.
-
So it seems we may be at an impasse. Clinical studies are not automatically performed in all areas. They are great to have but the lack of them doesn’t dictate a conclusion either way. To say a program is ineffective because of a lack of studies ludicrous.
But to advertise a program as effective when it has not been proven to be is fraudulent. So, you say: well, that would mean all new organizations of any kind are fraudulent. No. Legitimate treatment of mental problems normally requires licenses to practice. Licenses, both give the practitioners something major to lose if they screw up, and ensure that they have the education not to, for example, dismiss threats of suicide as "manipulation".
If the parents and kids that pass through the programs find them to be effective then they are!
So what you're essentially saying is "trust the marketing"... Unless you're suggesting we listen to the experiences of a single parent OR interview a large sample of people who have been in (not just graduated from) the program. Oh... but that would be somewhat of study, now wouldn't it.
The parents and kids that find them to be ineffective are also correct (wilderness doesn’t work for everyone).
Do you really expect an educational consultant to say something like that? Do you expect a program to refuse a student... ever? Ever tried applying a fake kid to a program for absurd reasons just to see the response? I'd do it if I had the phone voice. Besides... Many programs even require wilderness before going into the main program and use them as threats to gain compliance.
As far as abuse goes, we haven’t seen any evidence. Lain gave us a story about a person who had to walk back down the trail and place a sausage into the food bag, which didn’t seem to be anything to call the police on.
Regardless of what you deem "abuse", these programs rely on creating enough "discomfort" to gain compliance. Many advertise to "break em down" to "build em up". It's a euphemism for attack on the core identity. The military doesn't do this at all in the literal sense that program do, and even if they did, it's voluntary, people don't need to have their wills broken (since they want to be there) and people know what their getting into. There is informed consent. There isn't in a program.
So to recap: The effectiveness of Second Nature wilderness varies based on the individual from extremely effective to not effective at all, with no evidence of abuse (or negative effects).
Well. Consider, also, that an effective program of thought reform wouldn't have many people claiming abuse or mistreatment. There are almost too many reasons to count. Here's one:
- Usually, if they fuck up after program, they blame it on themselves. Since whatever they experienced is the only concept of "therapy" they have ever experienced, since they were told it was therapy (regardless of whether it was or not), they're unlikely to view what they experienced as abuse if it was. If you want to find out about abuse in a program, ask the kids how they were helped, in explicit detail. Ask them how they found their real selves. Ask them how resistant they were at the beginning of program, and how hard the staff had to push them to "follow the program". Ask them about consequences, etc.
What programs do, in my experience, with just about anybody i've ever talked to who was in a program, is instill a new belief system where the student is to blame for anything that ever happened to them, or will happen to them. When they predictibly "relapse" because they believe they are powerless, need program, and have no self confidence at all, they believe it's because they "didn't follow their program". Some even ask to go back... Some become afraid to leave. Program sure as hell doesn't mind. They like completely debilitated students (as long as their parents still have money). There's no warranty here and by coaching the parents and shoving them through brainwashing (yes brainwashing) seminars, they can become convinced that the program is the only possible salvation for their child. Some programs use this to their advantage, offering free tuition for referrals, turning the parents into deployable agents of the cult (free marketing / evangelism).
No, parents aren't always stupid... They're often uneducated. If I had been in my parent's shoes, I probably wouldnt' have believed my complaints when I was in program. That doesn't necessarily make it right at all, they should have investigated... but programs prepare for that as well and staff are often trained in how to deal with doubting parents. Parents are often scolded when they question the program, told that to trust the professionals and that they don't know what their talking about. They're told that their kid is progressing, just needs more time in program (could you possibly afford a few more months. he really needs it). They use fear too, often claiming "this is his last chance at a life. if he leaves now, he'll die / whatever is needed to scare the parents...) They told this to my parents. They make a living off doing this shit, you don't think they're good at it. These people know how to create emotional responses (especially fear) in order to get what they want.
you can go bla bla bla "you don't know it's a bad program" and I respond that I don't have to know. The industry is unregulated, and there are enough programs confirmed to be bad out there to know that taking a chance at all is a real bad idea, even when "all" other options have been exhausted. If I was an evil bastard and I wanted to make a lot of money, if I was a sociopath like Sue Scheff says I am, I would probably start a program and do exactly what i've just talked above with very, very little fear of repercussions.
What's the statute of limitations on intentional / negligent infliction of emotional distress... Does a debilitated program dropout who has no parental support and struggling to survive think about where to get food next, or how to get a 600$ retainer (not even mentioning the legal fees) for a lawer who, in all probability, will never take the case. That's even assuming they were resistant enough to not accept the program (or snap out of the thought reform early). That's assuming their parents even believe them... and in most case programs know that parents will never believe a kid complaining about most of the things they do. That's assuming the parents even talk to the kids. Often, programs convince the parents not to talk to them unless it's through the program (even after program). They tell them that the kids will say anything to get back in the house and start manipulating / using them again. They tell the parents that they need a mediator to spot lies/manipulations. Considering the parents are on the program's side, who do you think they would testify for. Considering the trumped up confessions required to be written in program, you don't think the program would submit that as evidence. You think a cheap-as lawyer (compared to a program's unlimited funding) could really explain the psychology of thought reform to an average American Jury? I know of one who could, and he ain't cheap.
I know all too well how it's possible to run an abusive school that systematically destroys, debilitates, robs, and abandons students without getting caught.
Answer this question: IF a kid is abused in program, and the conditions I am speaking of exist, HOW could he or she do anything about it at all? And that's even assuming the unlikely possibility that they understand even a fraction of what happened to them. Go read one of the books advertised here, (start with cults in our midst, perhaps), and maybe, if you're actually a human being, you'll begin to understand the immense harm you are doing here by trying to convince parents that any program is a good one.
-
Thank you, psy, for that kick-ass post! :nworthy:
-
yup agree.
Thank you PSY for formulating the message and eloquently writing what many of us feel. There are many pieces of this puzzle: families, the parents, but most importantly, the child who needs a voice.
(a parent who wised up to TBS scams)
-
Well said, Psy!
If I may, I'd like to address an issue that I believe is of primary concern but not often acknowledged.
Many of the people who run these programs and SELL THEM meet the definition of a malignant narcissist.
These types of disordered personalities are drawn to the TEEN HURT industry like a moth to the flame.
Abusing children is second nature to them. The power they hold over these vulnerable, completely defenseless children is intoxicating.
-
Abusing children is to them.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
-
yup agree.
Thank you PSY for formulating the message and eloquently writing what many of us feel. There are many pieces of this puzzle: families, the parents, but most importantly, the child who needs a voice.
(a parent who wised up to TBS scams)
Thanks... But there's so much left out. It's just the tip of the iceberg. What's hard, what's very hard, is convincing anybody that really needs the information to actually sit down and listen to it for long enough to figure it out. By the time they figure it out on their own (if they figure it out on their own), it's usually too late. So let me explain a little about what happened to me; why, exactly things probably would not have gone so well. Parents.. listen up:
The reasons I am here, right now, aren't due to who I am, per se. I am not "responsible" for everything that was done to me, that happened to me, and I am not in total control of my destiny. If my parents would not have helped me, in all likelyhood, i would have ended up in the same situation as so many of my friends. I would have had to live on the streets and do anything I needed to in order to survive. At the point I was at, believing what I did, I probably would have actually become an "addict/alcoholic" as they had convinced me I was (which was absurd, given my reasons for going there).
Funny thing was that I wasn't "forced" to believe anything the way I perceived it at the time. That's not possible. It's trickery. I was simply immersed in a culture that believed a certain way and I adopted those beliefs based on the (false) information i was "taught" while I was there. They presented to me a list of things that an alcoholic was, and I looked at that list and I said "wow... that's me"... and they told me that they were all like me at one point, and that they could have turned things around if they had "caught it early" like I did. It was only much later that I figured out that everybody in existance would have filled the criteria they gave for an alcholic. Normal people (not in the cult) would have recognized that, but until I had learned to identify myself totally as an "alcoholic / addict" i had no contact with the outside world. When we did, they were at selected AA meetings they bussed us to (we were not allowed to share, though... we were told this was to respect others. I now realize it's because they might have laughed us out of the room). But most in the "real world" would have said "uh... aha... ok... well.. i'm glad you're sober now. congratulations" and probably walk away feeling a bit awkward at how proud you were identifying yourself as a junkie. Nobody... nobody... questions whether it's true, or will ask you what you learned in rehab...
Of course, once you completely identify yourself with an addict, you wear it like a badge on your shoulder. It was almost a badge of pride at benchmark. It had an exclusivity to it. Once you took the "first step" to "recovery", it felt great... I was grateful to them... I cried and broke down, and "realized" that they were saving me from what they portrayed as an inevitable path of destruction. I bonded with them, saw them as family. "an alcholic knows an alcoholic" I was told. At first, I "resisted" and portrayed things as they were. I wrote my "life story" as they instructed me to do, as well as my "dirt list" only to be told that they were not "truthful". It was one of the first "assignments" they had me write. I had no reason to lie. I thought they were there to help me. I was told that I was not there at Benchmark for the reasons I claimed (which were the exact reasons that were written on the referral sheet, btw), and that I was simply in denial (Don't even know i am lying). I was told that everybody denied the truth when the first got to Benchmark and I needed to take that "first step".
It's a powerful thing, sitting in a room of people claiming that they know you're one of them, that they were all like me, and that they didn't know they were lying to themselves. I believed I was sick, that I was afraid of feelign, that I could not feel, that I didn't even know who I was because I was afraid of my true self, letting my true self out... I was told that we _all_ are wearing masks and need to take those masks off, discover the "inner me". I and me, for cedu people.
But how did they know that, I thought at first. How could they possibly know that I wasn't myself? I asked that question... I _knew_ they could not know, but in time, the repetition, the pressure, the "evidence" they gave (that applied to everybody on the planet) convinced me of their "truth". I was told that one example was that I was too intellectual, I argued, I was resistant, I was "in my head"... it was all evidence that i was an alcholic/addict. They told me that I needed to stop thinking so much, in thier own language, that I needed to feel.
What they really wanted me to do was to stop thinking, and let emotions overwhelm me. They wanted a conversion experience, with the program as the god.
I was told that the 12 steps could be used to treat any illness or disability, that I could just replace the word "alcohol" with my issue and overcome it with the help of a higher power (benchmark)... Multiple educational psychologists had diagnosed me with dysgraphia, a writing disability. They all basically said that i'm intelligent but since my handwriting was slow and illegible (not my fault, it's my noodle) I was supposed (not just allowed) to used a computer to type my schoolwork. Benchmark told me that I could overcome it... I initially argued that while I could write, it was far slower than other people and it would be holding me back. Well... It didn't matter. Although they had promised that I would be able to use the computer (they should have, by law, since they claimed to be a school), after the 30 days they told me were to inspect my computer for contraband (they never touched it) I was told that i had lost my privelage. this decision was apparantly made at the staff meeting. I was told I didn't need it, that I could overcome...
I was furious. I knew they were violating the law, and they tested the waters with my parents about this. Although my parents would normally have probably raised a fit, they made it sound like they knew what they were doing and they claimed they could help me to overcome my writing disability. in reality, none of the staff knew what in the fuck was disgraphia, and I doubt any of them cared.
As far as they were concerned, I was whining and felt "entitled". You're fucking right I was entitled, and they were breaking the law. At that point I had what they would refer to as a "blow up".... as in I totally let them have it, verbally, explained how my parents would sue them into the next century, how they were violating my rights, etc. They told me that had no rights, that I had signed them away when I came to program. I told them they lied to me. They told me the rules on computers had changed recently (but admissions director Richard Brimhall was still pushing the same "you can have your computer after 30 days" bullshit 6 months later. I made it a point of asking new arrivals about it.)
I demanded (and i mean demanded) my property they had confiscated back. I wanted my palmtop so I could get a calling card number out of it to call my parents and tell them what was going on (i didn't tell them why I wanted it bakc). I hadn't talked to my parents since my dad dropped me off (no phone calls for 30 days, no refunds after 5) and I wanted to explain to them what was going on. The reason they did this, I later figured out when reading the correspondance with my parents, is so they could push their bullshit on them, tell them about all the fictional things I did. I was an angel. They told me that if I was good that I could have my computer back. The place was stressful and i've always found computers relaxing. That's all I wanted... just what they agreed to.
So what happened? They refused to give me my property back. They told me that the property was not mine... it was my parents (even though my parents always made me pay for my own stuff) Techincally, anything else was gifted property. I almost couldn't believe it... I told them that they were keeping my property and that it was theft. I told them I would call the cops. They told me that first of all it wouldn't matter since the property was "my parents" and secondly that i would never be allowed back in program if I did (and they do hold good on that threat). I was left in a position where I could try to see if the cops would help (and even if they did, I didn't have a place to take my stuff, I didn't know if my palmtop would need a charge to get the calling card number off, and I didn't know if my parents would help even if I could contact them (nope... they would not have, thanks to what the program had been telling them for that month without contact).
That being said, I was sure my mother would at least help. If I couldn't leave the program, I truly believed that if I could talk to her she would set the program straight, tell them to give me my computer, and everything would be fine. So I told the parent rep (Carl Janowitz) I was chiefly arguing with/yellign at that I was going to walk off and make a phone call (i figured i could call collect). He told me that i would not be let back in until authorized again. I told him "we'll see after I talk to my parents about this. my mother has taken on a school before on this issue, and you will comply with the law". So I walked out, went to the nearest payphone, and tried to make a collect call... an international collect call to Ireland where my parents were living at the time. Well... as anybody who has ever tried it before can tell you, it's not possible (or at least not at the time). I called 1-800-collect and asked an operator, I tried looking through the phone book.... Eventually, I gave up. It was getting late, I was hungry, and I knew the area wasn't the greatest at night (Aaron can attest to this). I went back to program. They were loading up the vans to go back to the apartments. I begged. They realized i was desperate and so I was allowed to ride back. I was then put on House and Room restiction.
Before that point I was following the rules, I was doing my "level requirments". I have documentation of this (staff signatures) checking off my almost flawless behavior on the level requirements sheet. I had no problem complying with the program as long as they did what they promised they would do. I made up my mind to follow their orders until i got my first phone call, at which point I would tell my parents what was going on and surely, they would help me out.
I expected my parents to care, I expected them to resist, I expected them to help me out. What happened shocked me. They told me that I "need to follow the program, do what they say, etc..." And with that... my only advocates took the program's side, without even hearing me out...
I seriously doubt most staff realized what they were doing. To them, they were spreading the gospel, helping people find themselves, the ultimate truth, etc... It's what they were taught, and they believed it. Notes that my counselors wrote (that i had to eventually threaten the program with legal action to get) reveal that they didn't seem to be deliberately deceiving anybody. They believed it.
Jayne, and many of the executive staff, on the other hand, i'm pretty sure were just after the money. Why? many reasons: They were always asking my parents for more money (he could use more time in program.. he's making progress bla bla bla, will the State department pay for more time bla bla bla... Also, they lied (why would they if they believed it). They either made stuff up completely out of whole cloth, made tiny offenses into crimes against humanity, and invented new rules, just for me (it's an "individualized program", LOL) when I wasn't breaking enough.
I should have figured after they confiscated my palmtop after a week or so without a reason that something was wrong(iPaq 3600 series with Tarsus fold-out full-size keyboard, they told me I could type my work on until i got my desktop back (LIE))... Know what they told my parents they took it away for? They tole them I was using it to cast spells. Yes, I have this in writing, and when I release the Benchmark documetary, you'll see a lot of this.
But I bit my tongue... they told me at the end of 30 days I could have it back, so I didn't mind. It was this "you can get it back later" crap they would use all the time... or "you'll get your level two in no time if you follow the rules, etc." Well... I did what they asked, I followed everything and i have my level requirements checklist that has every single thing checked off with excellent done... I finished Building Trades in record time too (vocational education where you build furnature they sell). Oh. but there was one thing that was not checked off.... Item number 17: "enough Time spent in program" which required some very subjective standards to be met such as me to make a "lasting change"...
Well. I told them that I was there to finish high school (what I was told), and that there was nothing about myself I felt I wanted to change at the time. My counselor agreed, initially, that i could write down "cut down on smoking" as a "personal growth" goal... Later, I was told that was not sufficient... Everything would change as soon as I was close to it. There was a carrot on a stick and they were leading me around. They had universal catch 22s for everything. I knew they were jerking me around, but I didn't know what for. I didn't understand why they were doing what they were doing. Unless you've been in a situation like that you really can't know how stressful it can be...
Everybody was constantly reporting on everybody, looking for things, writing down "dirt lists" on anything from somebody "breaking bans" to rumors they had heard of an un-approved love-relationship going on... They had to approve who you were attracted to... They had to check off (on a piece of paper, that I have) whether you were "sexually enlightened", or "ready to date". You had to write a proposal if you wanted to have sex and counselors had to deem you ready. You had to earn your own money, rent out a hotel room, and write this whole plan down in a "proposal" for staff meeting. So much for spontaneity. I was told that Benchmark was very "progressive"... that no other program allowed students to have sex at all... I told them that I wasn't told this was a program.. I was told it was a school. I felt like i was wrongfully imprisoned without even a trial. My parents didn't even know what it was like. They thought it was a school I thought it was a school, even after the tour. I couldnt' figure out why they had that 30 day no talking to parents rule but... boy did I figure that out quick.
Yeah, i became hostile, yes, I was vindictive, yes, i hurt people, yes I reported on people, yes, I played the game... we all did. Yes, i was very, very wrong (even though the staff told us that reporting on others was "helping" them follow the program). Writing this now... since i've avoided writing about this in depth for so long, makes me... somewhere between sick to my stomach and angry enough to ........ Helpless. Not any fucking more. I am going to expose the truth about Benchmark and that school will be shut down. It will happen.
What they did is NOT therapy. What I'm describing i've heard in one form or another from pretty much every single program vet i've talked to. I learned that programs generally operate pretty much alike. All of the control communcation, all control the enviornment, all demand disclosures, all critique those as "truthful". I learned to doubt myself in program. I was confident before program. I could assert myself, not what they told me to be, not what they made me, not the "real me" that I could only find by following their program. Parent's don't realize how fucking traumatic it is, how permanant that is, how i can no longer be around groups of people and function in a normal capacity, how my stress levels go through the roof when around new people, how I am no longer able to ask a person out on a date, or even for coffee... how i can no longer tell somebody i'm in love because i'm terrified... I learned to be silent, be passive, to avoid conflict at any cost by satisfying requests.
I was not like this before program. It's only been since i've been thinking about these things that i've regained some of what i lost, myself. "get over it" and "move on with your life" are NOT what is a good idea. After leaving a program or a cult you need to examine what went on. It's better to do it sooner rather than later, once you've learned to live with the damage. Nope. Normal therapists won't help. Most don't realize how they work or what they do. Go to one who specializes in cults, or find a friend who was in one and recognizes what's going on.
It's not therapy, it's flat out cruelty, and it's done out of greed, and sadly many parents are naive enough to belive some con artists... despite the fact that their advice might be against their better judgement they turn all decisions over to the cult representative, controlling them with fear. Parents should be helping us to rip these places apart and hold the leaders accountable for thier crimes, offering their followers the therapy they need, but only if they want it because that's how therapy works. It's VOLUNTARY. It's not deceptive. They don't have secret LGAT seminars where you're not told what to expect, where you're told to let go of your values, where your mind is played with through tricks. THERAPY is NOT DECEPTIVE, and NOT SECRETIVE. "Don't tell because it would ruin it for others"... or the techniques wouldnt' work, since people would know what to expect, might ask questions, might not be surprised at the results of the games... who knows... maybe one or two might figure out it's nothing but a repackaging of est, Lifespring, or whatever else "works" to gain the results they want: compliant, obedient, pliable, trusting, loyal, parents who bond, through a process of induced pain then comfort, with a "facilitator" whose sole interest is in making sure they can milk every last dollar until the parents end up desperate, praying to their fucking false god to save their child.
Most stuff about programs I recognized on my own, and by talking with others who were in program, but one thing I didn't realize until reading "Cults in Our Midst" is that cults truly are structured like an inverted T. The leader is on top, and everybody else is on the bottom. I did things in program I regret, so did staff. I went to program under false pretenses, and so did they. They went through the seminars too, they had no pre-existing concept of what therapy was (they deliberately hire unqualified staff with little education). At least at the program I was at, I no longer blame most of the staff. A few, i believe were just cruel and got off on the power, some, i'm sure weren't that way to start with but beacame taht way over time. For the most part, however, believe most truly believed, and only truly wanted to help people.
The top, on the other hand... Jayne Longnecker, Richard brimhall, and others who deliberatly decieved parents, who could not have possibly have been ignorant to what they were doing, that they were participating in a systematic ruining of peopel's lives for profit... They should be thrown in jail for life, preferably with some extra friendly, and extremely well endowed cellmates. In my opinion, what they did was murder. They advertised "therapist" and "psychologists", deliberatly lying in order to increase enrollment. They accept more than capacity, storing the most "negative" students in motels...
Oh but The level 2s can get jobs right.... sure they can ... only jobs that give out paychecks, so they can sign them over to program... And no, they can't keep the cash if they decide to leave. They covered every angle and it all functions to bring cashflow in, and send it to the top. a system like that does not form by accident and I hope Jayne someday feels something.. half of any of the pain she has caused any one student... Even the successes, even the staff, realize what goes on in time. How many stay more than a year or so? WHY do they all stay silent. I want to know that. Are they all that stupid? do they choose not to see it because it's inconvenient to them? Voluntary suspension of disbelief? I need to stop. I'm typing far too hard on this laptop keyboard.
I hope this explains a little, parents, and to you, Whooter... I dont' expect you to believe me, or to care if you do, but in time all of you will figure it out and don't say I didn't warn you. You should hope your kids have a fraction of the mercy I have for mine.
PS: I know the grammar is atrocious... I'll correct it later.. I was writing it in a stream of consciousness mode.
-
Do you have a reader's digest version?
-
Unless you're Randall Hinton.
Wanna bet what is in Randall at the moment?
-
yup agree.
Thank you PSY for formulating the message and eloquently writing what many of us feel. There are many pieces of this puzzle: families, the parents, but most importantly, the child who needs a voice.
(a parent who wised up to TBS scams)
Thanks... But there's so much left out. It's just the tip of the iceberg. What's hard, what's very hard, is convincing anybody that really needs the information to actually sit down and listen to it for long enough to figure it out. By the time they figure it out on their own (if they figure it out on their own), it's usually too late. So let me explain a little about what happened to me; why, exactly things probably would not have gone so well. Parents.. listen up:
The reasons I am here, right now, aren't due to who I am, per se. I am not "responsible" for everything that was done to me, that happened to me, and I am not in total control of my destiny. If my parents would not have helped me, in all likelyhood, i would have ended up in the same situation as so many of my friends. I would have had to live on the streets and do anything I needed to in order to survive. At the point I was at, believing what I did, I probably would have actually become an "addict/alcoholic" as they had convinced me I was (which was absurd, given my reasons for going there).
Funny thing was that I wasn't "forced" to believe anything the way I perceived it at the time. That's not possible. It's trickery. I was simply immersed in a culture that believed a certain way and I adopted those beliefs based on the (false) information i was "taught" while I was there. They presented to me a list of things that an alcoholic was, and I looked at that list and I said "wow... that's me"... and they told me that they were all like me at one point, and that they could have turned things around if they had "caught it early" like I did. It was only much later that I figured out that everybody in existance would have filled the criteria they gave for an alcholic. Normal people (not in the cult) would have recognized that, but until I had learned to identify myself totally as an "alcoholic / addict" i had no contact with the outside world. When we did, they were at selected AA meetings they bussed us to (we were not allowed to share, though... we were told this was to respect others. I now realize it's because they might have laughed us out of the room). But most in the "real world" would have said "uh... aha... ok... well.. i'm glad you're sober now. congratulations" and probably walk away feeling a bit awkward at how proud you were identifying yourself as a junkie. Nobody... nobody... questions whether it's true, or will ask you what you learned in rehab...
Of course, once you completely identify yourself with an addict, you wear it like a badge on your shoulder. It was almost a badge of pride at benchmark. It had an exclusivity to it. Once you took the "first step" to "recovery", it felt great... I was grateful to them... I cried and broke down, and "realized" that they were saving me from what they portrayed as an inevitable path of destruction. I bonded with them, saw them as family. "an alcholic knows an alcoholic" I was told. At first, I "resisted" and portrayed things as they were. I wrote my "life story" as they instructed me to do, as well as my "dirt list" only to be told that they were not "truthful". It was one of the first "assignments" they had me write. I had no reason to lie. I thought they were there to help me. I was told that I was not there at Benchmark for the reasons I claimed (which were the exact reasons that were written on the referral sheet, btw), and that I was simply in denial (Don't even know i am lying). I was told that everybody denied the truth when the first got to Benchmark and I needed to take that "first step".
It's a powerful thing, sitting in a room of people claiming that they know you're one of them, that they were all like me, and that they didn't know they were lying to themselves. I believed I was sick, that I was afraid of feelign, that I could not feel, that I didn't even know who I was because I was afraid of my true self, letting my true self out... I was told that we _all_ are wearing masks and need to take those masks off, discover the "inner me". I and me, for cedu people.
But how did they know that, I thought at first. How could they possibly know that I wasn't myself? I asked that question... I _knew_ they could not know, but in time, the repetition, the pressure, the "evidence" they gave (that applied to everybody on the planet) convinced me of their "truth". I was told that one example was that I was too intellectual, I argued, I was resistant, I was "in my head"... it was all evidence that i was an alcholic/addict. They told me that I needed to stop thinking so much, in thier own language, that I needed to feel.
What they really wanted me to do was to stop thinking, and let emotions overwhelm me. They wanted a conversion experience, with the program as the god.
I was told that the 12 steps could be used to treat any illness or disability, that I could just replace the word "alcohol" with my issue and overcome it with the help of a higher power (benchmark)... Multiple educational psychologists had diagnosed me with dysgraphia, a writing disability. They all basically said that i'm intelligent but since my handwriting was slow and illegible (not my fault, it's my noodle) I was supposed (not just allowed) to used a computer to type my schoolwork. Benchmark told me that I could overcome it... I initially argued that while I could write, it was far slower than other people and it would be holding me back. Well... It didn't matter. Although they had promised that I would be able to use the computer (they should have, by law, since they claimed to be a school), after the 30 days they told me were to inspect my computer for contraband (they never touched it) I was told that i had lost my privelage. this decision was apparantly made at the staff meeting. I was told I didn't need it, that I could overcome...
I was furious. I knew they were violating the law, and they tested the waters with my parents about this. Although my parents would normally have probably raised a fit, they made it sound like they knew what they were doing and they claimed they could help me to overcome my writing disability. in reality, none of the staff knew what in the fuck was disgraphia, and I doubt any of them cared.
As far as they were concerned, I was whining and felt "entitled". You're fucking right I was entitled, and they were breaking the law. At that point I had what they would refer to as a "blow up".... as in I totally let them have it, verbally, explained how my parents would sue them into the next century, how they were violating my rights, etc. They told me that had no rights, that I had signed them away when I came to program. I told them they lied to me. They told me the rules on computers had changed recently (but admissions director Richard Brimhall was still pushing the same "you can have your computer after 30 days" bullshit 6 months later. I made it a point of asking new arrivals about it.)
I demanded (and i mean demanded) my property they had confiscated back. I wanted my palmtop so I could get a calling card number out of it to call my parents and tell them what was going on (i didn't tell them why I wanted it bakc). I hadn't talked to my parents since my dad dropped me off (no phone calls for 30 days, no refunds after 5) and I wanted to explain to them what was going on. The reason they did this, I later figured out when reading the correspondance with my parents, is so they could push their bullshit on them, tell them about all the fictional things I did. I was an angel. They told me that if I was good that I could have my computer back. The place was stressful and i've always found computers relaxing. That's all I wanted... just what they agreed to.
So what happened? They refused to give me my property back. They told me that the property was not mine... it was my parents (even though my parents always made me pay for my own stuff) Techincally, anything else was gifted property. I almost couldn't believe it... I told them that they were keeping my property and that it was theft. I told them I would call the cops. They told me that first of all it wouldn't matter since the property was "my parents" and secondly that i would never be allowed back in program if I did (and they do hold good on that threat). I was left in a position where I could try to see if the cops would help (and even if they did, I didn't have a place to take my stuff, I didn't know if my palmtop would need a charge to get the calling card number off, and I didn't know if my parents would help even if I could contact them (nope... they would not have, thanks to what the program had been telling them for that month without contact).
That being said, I was sure my mother would at least help. If I couldn't leave the program, I truly believed that if I could talk to her she would set the program straight, tell them to give me my computer, and everything would be fine. So I told the parent rep (Carl Janowitz) I was chiefly arguing with/yellign at that I was going to walk off and make a phone call (i figured i could call collect). He told me that i would not be let back in until authorized again. I told him "we'll see after I talk to my parents about this. my mother has taken on a school before on this issue, and you will comply with the law". So I walked out, went to the nearest payphone, and tried to make a collect call... an international collect call to Ireland where my parents were living at the time. Well... as anybody who has ever tried it before can tell you, it's not possible (or at least not at the time). I called 1-800-collect and asked an operator, I tried looking through the phone book.... Eventually, I gave up. It was getting late, I was hungry, and I knew the area wasn't the greatest at night (Aaron can attest to this). I went back to program. They were loading up the vans to go back to the apartments. I begged. They realized i was desperate and so I was allowed to ride back. I was then put on House and Room restiction.
Before that point I was following the rules, I was doing my "level requirments". I have documentation of this (staff signatures) checking off my almost flawless behavior on the level requirements sheet. I had no problem complying with the program as long as they did what they promised they would do. I made up my mind to follow their orders until i got my first phone call, at which point I would tell my parents what was going on and surely, they would help me out.
I expected my parents to care, I expected them to resist, I expected them to help me out. What happened shocked me. They told me that I "need to follow the program, do what they say, etc..." And with that... my only advocates took the program's side, without even hearing me out...
I seriously doubt most staff realized what they were doing. To them, they were spreading the gospel, helping people find themselves, the ultimate truth, etc... It's what they were taught, and they believed it. Notes that my counselors wrote (that i had to eventually threaten the program with legal action to get) reveal that they didn't seem to be deliberately deceiving anybody. They believed it.
Jayne, and many of the executive staff, on the other hand, i'm pretty sure were just after the money. Why? many reasons: They were always asking my parents for more money (he could use more time in program.. he's making progress bla bla bla, will the State department pay for more time bla bla bla... Also, they lied (why would they if they believed it). They either made stuff up completely out of whole cloth, made tiny offenses into crimes against humanity, and invented new rules, just for me (it's an "individualized program", LOL) when I wasn't breaking enough.
I should have figured after they confiscated my palmtop after a week or so without a reason that something was wrong(iPaq 3600 series with Tarsus fold-out full-size keyboard, they told me I could type my work on until i got my desktop back (LIE))... Know what they told my parents they took it away for? They tole them I was using it to cast spells. Yes, I have this in writing, and when I release the Benchmark documetary, you'll see a lot of this.
But I bit my tongue... they told me at the end of 30 days I could have it back, so I didn't mind. It was this "you can get it back later" crap they would use all the time... or "you'll get your level two in no time if you follow the rules, etc." Well... I did what they asked, I followed everything and i have my level requirements checklist that has every single thing checked off with excellent done... I finished Building Trades in record time too (vocational education where you build furnature they sell). Oh. but there was one thing that was not checked off.... Item number 17: "enough Time spent in program" which required some very subjective standards to be met such as me to make a "lasting change"...
Well. I told them that I was there to finish high school (what I was told), and that there was nothing about myself I felt I wanted to change at the time. My counselor agreed, initially, that i could write down "cut down on smoking" as a "personal growth" goal... Later, I was told that was not sufficient... Everything would change as soon as I was close to it. There was a carrot on a stick and they were leading me around. They had universal catch 22s for everything. I knew they were jerking me around, but I didn't know what for. I didn't understand why they were doing what they were doing. Unless you've been in a situation like that you really can't know how stressful it can be...
Everybody was constantly reporting on everybody, looking for things, writing down "dirt lists" on anything from somebody "breaking bans" to rumors they had heard of an un-approved love-relationship going on... They had to approve who you were attracted to... They had to check off (on a piece of paper, that I have) whether you were "sexually enlightened", or "ready to date". You had to write a proposal if you wanted to have sex and counselors had to deem you ready. You had to earn your own money, rent out a hotel room, and write this whole plan down in a "proposal" for staff meeting. So much for spontaneity. I was told that Benchmark was very "progressive"... that no other program allowed students to have sex at all... I told them that I wasn't told this was a program.. I was told it was a school. I felt like i was wrongfully imprisoned without even a trial. My parents didn't even know what it was like. They thought it was a school I thought it was a school, even after the tour. I couldnt' figure out why they had that 30 day no talking to parents rule but... boy did I figure that out quick.
Yeah, i became hostile, yes, I was vindictive, yes, i hurt people, yes I reported on people, yes, I played the game... we all did. Yes, i was very, very wrong (even though the staff told us that reporting on others was "helping" them follow the program). Writing this now... since i've avoided writing about this in depth for so long, makes me... somewhere between sick to my stomach and angry enough to ........ Helpless. Not any fucking more. I am going to expose the truth about Benchmark and that school will be shut down. It will happen.
What they did is NOT therapy. What I'm describing i've heard in one form or another from pretty much every single program vet i've talked to. I learned that programs generally operate pretty much alike. All of the control communcation, all control the enviornment, all demand disclosures, all critique those as "truthful". I learned to doubt myself in program. I was confident before program. I could assert myself, not what they told me to be, not what they made me, not the "real me" that I could only find by following their program. Parent's don't realize how fucking traumatic it is, how permanant that is, how i can no longer be around groups of people and function in a normal capacity, how my stress levels go through the roof when around new people, how I am no longer able to ask a person out on a date, or even for coffee... how i can no longer tell somebody i'm in love because i'm terrified... I learned to be silent, be passive, to avoid conflict at any cost by satisfying requests.
I was not like this before program. It's only been since i've been thinking about these things that i've regained some of what i lost, myself. "get over it" and "move on with your life" are NOT what is a good idea. After leaving a program or a cult you need to examine what went on. It's better to do it sooner rather than later, once you've learned to live with the damage. Nope. Normal therapists won't help. Most don't realize how they work or what they do. Go to one who specializes in cults, or find a friend who was in one and recognizes what's going on.
It's not therapy, it's flat out cruelty, and it's done out of greed, and sadly many parents are naive enough to belive some con artists... despite the fact that their advice might be against their better judgement they turn all decisions over to the cult representative, controlling them with fear. Parents should be helping us to rip these places apart and hold the leaders accountable for thier crimes, offering their followers the therapy they need, but only if they want it because that's how therapy works. It's VOLUNTARY. It's not deceptive. They don't have secret LGAT seminars where you're not told what to expect, where you're told to let go of your values, where your mind is played with through tricks. THERAPY is NOT DECEPTIVE, and NOT SECRETIVE. "Don't tell because it would ruin it for others"... or the techniques wouldnt' work, since people would know what to expect, might ask questions, might not be surprised at the results of the games... who knows... maybe one or two might figure out it's nothing but a repackaging of est, Lifespring, or whatever else "works" to gain the results they want: compliant, obedient, pliable, trusting, loyal, parents who bond, through a process of induced pain then comfort, with a "facilitator" whose sole interest is in making sure they can milk every last dollar until the parents end up desperate, praying to their fucking false god to save their child.
Most stuff about programs I recognized on my own, and by talking with others who were in program, but one thing I didn't realize until reading "Cults in Our Midst" is that cults truly are structured like an inverted T. The leader is on top, and everybody else is on the bottom. I did things in program I regret, so did staff. I went to program under false pretenses, and so did they. They went through the seminars too, they had no pre-existing concept of what therapy was (they deliberately hire unqualified staff with little education). At least at the program I was at, I no longer blame most of the staff. A few, i believe were just cruel and got off on the power, some, i'm sure weren't that way to start with but beacame taht way over time. For the most part, however, believe most truly believed, and only truly wanted to help people.
The top, on the other hand... Jayne Longnecker, Richard brimhall, and others who deliberatly decieved parents, who could not have possibly have been ignorant to what they were doing, that they were participating in a systematic ruining of peopel's lives for profit... They should be thrown in jail for life, preferably with some extra friendly, and extremely well endowed cellmates. In my opinion, what they did was murder. They advertised "therapist" and "psychologists", deliberatly lying in order to increase enrollment. They accept more than capacity, storing the most "negative" students in motels...
Oh but The level 2s can get jobs right.... sure they can ... only jobs that give out paychecks, so they can sign them over to program... And no, they can't keep the cash if they decide to leave. They covered every angle and it all functions to bring cashflow in, and send it to the top. a system like that does not form by accident and I hope Jayne someday feels something.. half of any of the pain she has caused any one student... Even the successes, even the staff, realize what goes on in time. How many stay more than a year or so? WHY do they all stay silent. I want to know that. Are they all that stupid? do they choose not to see it because it's inconvenient to them? Voluntary suspension of disbelief? I need to stop. I'm typing far too hard on this laptop keyboard.
I hope this explains a little, parents, and to you, Whooter... I dont' expect you to believe me, or to care if you do, but in time all of you will figure it out and don't say I didn't warn you. You should hope your kids have a fraction of the mercy I have for mine.
[quote/]
Psy, do you know if the same techniques were used at the Cedu Schools, in particular, running springs?
-
Jane Longnecker, founder of benchmark, was a long time employee of CEDU. One of her last employments for CEDU was director of Hill Top. I'm fairly certain anyone unfortunate to have experienced Running Springs would be familiar with Hill Top.
Given the discussions Psy and I have had and comparing them with the discussions my brother and I have had about his time in RMA I'm pretty sure the tactics are close to being the same.
Perhaps time has given Jane a few new wrinkles to her mad schemes, but the meaty substance of the tactics at play in Benchmark has that distinct CEDU flavor about it.
-
Psy, do you know if the same techniques were used at the Cedu Schools, in particular, running springs?
Um... Remember that parent rep guy I mentioned, Carl Janowitz: Running springs CEDU. He was the guy obsessed with the masks doctrine. He is the one who really cracked my skull open. Once I really broke down, he volunteered some of his doctrine, which i became very much a true believer in for a while... He also worked at a bunch of other CEDU affiliated schools, as well as *cough* Cascade. According to Benchmark, he died of cancer while in .. *cough* .. retirement, in thailand.
Jayne Longnecker... Director of CEDU Hilltop from 86-93. As I understand it, her daughter, Joelle Walters, also volunteered there for some time. In any case, Joelle is now the high priestess of the LGAT workshops.
Sharon Scoggins worked for the accounting department at CEDU from 1980 til 1994. I'd love to know more about her.
I've also heard rumors that a Steve Ornalis used to work for CEDU before coming to Benchmark, then leaving, but I wasn't there and would have to look through my interviews to see if anybody mentioned him.
Most of their employees they get out of various rehabs on the cheap, though, especially one in particular: Cedar House which the kids are sometimes bussed to for AA meetings (but probably not anymore, now that i've mentioned it here).
-
go ahead, guest lurker Monarch parents. It's not like we can, ummmm. trace (oops!) your ISP.
We (admins) could, but we (admins) don't... Even with TheWho. Why? Because if we started doing that, nobody would feel safe posting here.
But take a look at this:
And I know no man is an island
It seems to me as if they're still doing propheets. Aah CEDU... Same shit, different name, and the usual "we don't do that anymore".. LOL
-
Do you know what happened to the 100 page asr thread, psy? I've not been able to find it.
-
Do you know what happened to the 100 page asr thread, psy? I've not been able to find it.
Now I do....
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=305261#305261 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=305261#305261)
aah... it's going to be a fun weekend...
-
You do realize Ginger knows about the thread deletion and made absolutely no attempt to reverse it.
-
you're in trouble.. that happened before the reformat, right?
It prob won't come up, unless you're a computer genius. Seriously, my friend's a web designer, he couldn't get stuff i accedentally deleted, 2 minutes after i lost the info
-
(http://http://images.killermovies.com/m/movies/For_Whom_the_Bell_Tolls_book_cover.jpg)
-
"Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions, Meditation XVII:" year 1613.... by John Donne....
â€
-
I don't get why you guys get so hung up on where certain founders or staff worked prior. Many of us have worked for organizations that aren't the best. That does not mean we totally buy-in to the teachings of the prior employers. You can't judge the Second Nature founders simply based on where they started. Many people LEAVE programs because they want to change things and don't buy-in to the teachings.
Okay Mr. Born Again.....have you ever publically acknowledged that you once worked in a corrupt school? Have you told the kids, the parents, or alumni?????
You're probably shoving the 'honesty lesson' down your students throats 24/7 but the ironic part is that you don't know jackshit about honesty.
-
"Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions, Meditation XVII:" year 1613.... by John Donne....
â€
-
as a program attendee of many programs i would have to say second nature is a great program IF YOU HAVE THE MONEY. They do not abuse their kids because they are smarter than that in that the longevity of their program relies on not abusing kids. And dont tell me I dont know what I am talking about because I went there and am brainwashed. That is not true. I think there are some great things about second nature and some bad things too. The staff are mostly hippies that actually want to help and they freeze in the winter and bake in the summer. I got to talk about things in a safe environment. I was given choices which I cannot say for other programs. Do good kids get sent to the wrong programs, absolutely. Does second nature help in the long run? only if you have the money to send your kid to an after care where they can be kept from temptation.
a lot of time its the parents that create an unstable home
-
as a program attendee of many programs i would have to say second nature is a great program IF YOU HAVE THE MONEY. They do not abuse their kids because they are smarter than that in that the longevity of their program relies on not abusing kids. And dont tell me I dont know what I am talking about because I went there and am brainwashed. That is not true. I think there are some great things about second nature and some bad things too. The staff are mostly hippies that actually want to help and they freeze in the winter and bake in the summer. I got to talk about things in a safe environment. I was given choices which I cannot say for other programs. Do good kids get sent to the wrong programs, absolutely. Does second nature help in the long run? only if you have the money to send your kid to an after care where they can be kept from temptation.
a lot of time its the parents that create an unstable home
Slowmotion, thank you for the honest account. The majority of the staff members are really great people who want to help kids, but there is always that one person who gets into a power trip which reflects badly on staff as a whole.
I have spoken to many kids who are struggling due to instability at home. Just getting them free from those bad dynamics can be enough to get them on the right track again. The follow-up is critical.... if the child returns to the same environment (if that was a contributing cause) then the effort could prove fruitless, whether it be old friends, old habits, family dynamics or child’s medical needs/medication... as you mentioned the after care plan is crucial to the success of the program.
...
-
after care is a scam in itself. the reason second nature works is because it is an unsustainable short term process. are there good schools "after cares" and programs? i mean thats debateable. when you talk about non abusive transition living your talking the most expensive places. the staff at second nature has freedom of choice meaning that the owners the directors dont check up on staff because they dont like to go get dirty.
If your parents are the ones abusing you physically is talking about it in the desert or in the woods a terrible thing. Is talking about abuse hurtful no, is breaking an individual hurtful, yes
im not defending second nature by any means. I think this whole wilderness program/ after care is a complex subject.
if the parents dont change nothing for the kids will change.
the only wilderness program i endorse is Monarch Family Healing. Why do I endorse them?
Because the parents can come at any time. The kids are allowed in the city and asked not to run away. The parents have therapy. Thats right the parents are involved in 1/3 the therapy and the kids spend a week with them every three weeks.
They speak out against the bs in the ed consoltunt game, they are part of the congressional investigation on ethics. They helped to start the investigation. They almost went out of business and are still struggling because they are standing up for what is ethical. If you speak out against the people who refer kids how do you get kids? From parents who have their kids back home, not as perfect angles, more as a family that comunicates better. They deal with kids who recover from being in programs.
They refuse the use of pain restraints. Their theory is yeah kids will be kids when they go back home, they ll drink theyll "relapse" thats what kids do. there number one goal is to get kids home because they believe programs cause abandonment and attachment issues. there are no "ear shot" rules, no nark people out. they just took their kids to help in New Orleans.
Wilderness can work to help people get in touch, it can help to heal people. Like anything put in the wrong hands it can be destructive.
Kids are brainwashed, brainwashed by the media, their peers who copy the media. I could go on and on and ive totally digressed off the second nature subject.
-
after care is a scam in itself. the reason second nature works is because it is an unsustainable short term process. are there good schools "after cares" and programs? i mean thats debateable. when you talk about non abusive transition living your talking the most expensive places. the staff at second nature has freedom of choice meaning that the owners the directors dont check up on staff because they dont like to go get dirty.
If your parents are the ones abusing you physically is talking about it in the desert or in the woods a terrible thing. Is talking about abuse hurtful no, is breaking an individual hurtful, yes
im not defending second nature by any means. I think this whole wilderness program/ after care is a complex subject.
I guess I viewed aftercare as a little more general i.e. seeing a therapist locally once the child gets home. Moving on to a TBS I agree is debatable and depends on the individual child. There are harsh and abusive programs out there and these are the ones we need to keep kids away from.
if the parents dont change nothing for the kids will change.
Especially if the home environment is part of the problem, which in some cases it is. The better programs will address the family situation and ask them to work on the issues which come up during the child’s stay or deemed to be a problem so the child does go back to the same environment.
the only wilderness program i endorse is Monarch Family Healing. Why do I endorse them?
Because the parents can come at any time. The kids are allowed in the city and asked not to run away. The parents have therapy. Thats right the parents are involved in 1/3 the therapy and the kids spend a week with them every three weeks. They speak out against the bs in the ed consoltunt game, they are part of the congressional investigation on ethics. They helped to start the investigation. They almost went out of business and are still struggling because they are standing up for what is ethical. If you speak out against the people who refer kids how do you get kids? From parents who have their kids back home, not as perfect angles, more as a family that comunicates better. They deal with kids who recover from being in programs.
They refuse the use of pain restraints. Their theory is yeah kids will be kids when they go back home, they ll drink theyll "relapse" thats what kids do. there number one goal is to get kids home because they believe programs cause abandonment and attachment issues. there are no "ear shot" rules, no nark people out. they just took their kids to help in New Orleans.
That is good to hear….I found “SUWS of the Carolinas” to be beneficial and not abusive towards the children (some kids found it to be harsh) They don’t involve the parents as much as Monarch Family Healing, but they are involved and work towards getting families closer together. They don’t use restraints that I am aware of and utilize therapists which are paid separately (independent) from the program, which I liked.
They never talked about the kids going back to drinking and smoking as normal… but for me this wasn’t a big issue anyway, but it is good to be realistic.
Wilderness can work to help people get in touch, it can help to heal people. Like anything put in the wrong hands it can be destructive.
Kids are brainwashed, brainwashed by the media, their peers who copy the media. I could go on and on and ive totally digressed off the second nature subject.
Good post, slowmotion , thanks
...
-
That's the basic idea with Second Nature.
My particular ordeal began with being kidnapped and shipped there as so many. My crime consisted entirely of.. being sad. I still love the idea that taking a depressed transsexual and shipping her to Mormon Utah, minus what few comforts did exist and plus sadistic staff and insane 'therapeutic' ideas were going to make it better.
As noted, the therapist (who was everyone there's therapist) was around at most once a week. This in contrast to the therapist I had at home, who I saw once a week, liked, and respected, and if something came up I needed to talk about he could usually be on call within a few hours at most.
I won't get into the gory details, but staff were every bit as sadistic as any other program, only they really weren't allowed to beat people up randomly - bad PR, I guess. They were perfectly happy with mind games, and those were about the extent of the "therapy".
Now, they get paid for processed meat turned over to more 'long-term' programs, so throughout this they were buttering up my parents to make me such afterwards, of course. They did, the 2 other places and 2 stints at Second Nature gave me PTSD, and that's a story for you.
Conclusion: While I don't doubt the value of doing so, I don't even need to trash Second Nature with its obvious faults and false advertising (which, I will confirm, is false as they come). My argument is a bit simpler: It DOESN'T WORK.
sad
-
:bump:
-
:bump:
-
I went to second nature... and it was the dumbest thing ever. My parents sent me away for smoking ciggarettes and ditching school once and they think having me camp out with a bunch of losers is going to help me. yeah right... my parents are clueless. How come you only see parents coming to this site to support programs... you say the kids liked it... think again you are making shit up.
Same here, I went there in the summer of 2000, for basically the same reason. I don't feel I needed to be there and did not have a positive experience. I hated it there, I was miserable.
I would call it borderline abusive. We had to read our "impact letters" out loud to the group, which I thought was fucked up and invasive, as I don't feel my issues were any of their business.
and while they never denied me food, they did use food as a punishment, they made me only eat beans and rice for a week straight (for me it was rice, only, because I hate beans) which pissed me off. They also made me hike all day and when I freaked out because I was feeling sick, they told me to shut up and that I was on a pity party.
then 1 staff told me, "if you talk 1 more time you're on silence."
i nodded and said, "ok."
"you're on silence." then she also put me on Separates, so I spent the next week on Separates and Silence, meaning I couldn't talk to anyone and I couldn't be part of the group in any way. even though I didn't do anything but complain about the hike. ugh. I'd forgotten about all this till now actually. but now that I'm older, I'd love to have a few words with that loser haha.
Oh, and the program lied. On their website/brochure at the time, they claimed the group goes back to base camp twice a week to shower and eat hot meals, etc. That's a lie, never once did we go back to base camp during my entire 9 week stay there.
-
I went to second nature... and it was the dumbest thing ever. My parents sent me away for smoking ciggarettes and ditching school once and they think having me camp out with a bunch of losers is going to help me. yeah right... my parents are clueless. How come you only see parents coming to this site to support programs... you say the kids liked it... think again you are making shit up.
Same here, I went there in the summer of 2000, for basically the same reason. I don't feel I needed to be there and did not have a positive experience. I hated it there, I was miserable.
I would call it borderline abusive. We had to read our "impact letters" out loud to the group, which I thought was fucked up and invasive, as I don't feel my issues were any of their business.
and while they never denied me food, they did use food as a punishment, they made me only eat beans and rice for a week straight (for me it was rice, only, because I hate beans) which pissed me off. They also made me hike all day and when I freaked out because I was feeling sick, they told me to shut up and that I was on a pity party.
then 1 staff told me, "if you talk 1 more time you're on silence."
i nodded and said, "ok."
"you're on silence." then she also put me on Separates, so I spent the next week on Separates and Silence, meaning I couldn't talk to anyone and I couldn't be part of the group in any way. even though I didn't do anything but complain about the hike. ugh. I'd forgotten about all this till now actually. but now that I'm older, I'd love to have a few words with that loser haha.
Oh, and the program lied. On their website/brochure at the time, they claimed the group goes back to base camp twice a week to shower and eat hot meals, etc. That's a lie, never once did we go back to base camp during my entire 9 week stay there.
Nice to see that programmie techniques don't really vary from program to program.
Silence.. I remember that being called noncom in 3 springs. On bans in CEDU programs.
Seperates.. hmm.. group ignore...
Won't go on, this thread is more for you to say your piece, but just know you are a small part of a giant fucked up shit taco.
FEELS GOOD MAN!
Or does it?
-
The first issue here is that people are grouping together all of the programs under the Second Nature name, which is going to lead to problems regardless of intention--they operate an adult program, several programs for adolescents, and a program for younger kids.
That may not sound like a big deal, but I worked in the industry after being a client at one of their programs and trust me--the differences are huge between adult, adolescent, and youth programs. Different laws apply, different treatments are emphasized, and each employs a (similar and still) different structure. For example, most adolescent and especially the youth programs are not meant to "fix" or "cure" the student; they are mainly used for stabilization, assessment, and are (way more often than not) just prerequisites for getting the student into a good boarding school, as many require a certain level of behavioral decency that these students need help reaching.
I was a client at Second Nature Entrada, which is home to several adolescent groups and a couple adult groups as well. There are definitely things about it that I disagreed with, and also had an overwhelmingly positive experience. I think that most therapists--psychiatrists in particular--are full of crap, and have been very open with that opinion since day one. That being said, I would take a bullet for my therapist at 2NE. That man, and the field staff out there, helped save me from myself in ways that those who haven't experienced this kind of thing cannot begin to imagine.
It's very obvious, reading over this forum, that most of the posters have little to no idea what they're talking about, either in regard to the positive or more questionable aspects of wilderness therapy programs--and yes, both are very real. Example: one poster said that--and I quote--"nobody who went to a wilderness program would ever claim that it helped them." Well, here I am. It saved my life, and I know that is not true for everyone.
What program "works" for everyone, in any realm of life? Does school guarantee everyone a job? Does everyone like their classes? Their professors? Does everyone learn the same things from their jobs? Of course not.
After graduating, I went to a transitional program in Costa Rica that was blatantly fraudulent, and which I (and everyone else, really) considered to be psychologically abusive in certain ways. That program has been shut down.
I stayed there only long enough to realize what was going on, and then left and went to a different program that was not remarkable in either direction.
I now work in the industry, as a Field Instructor, and can tell you that if a program even had the potential for being abusive, it wouldn't exist for very long. The rules and policies are so incredibly specific, and so much paperwork needs to be filed for everything from a student complaining of a headache to what exactly happened that led to a student's being restrained, that there is no room for error. One kid, who I saw tremendous growth in and will probably always be unstable, called after he graduated and accused a certain staff member of sitting on him, pouring water on his head, and yelling in his ear, "THIS IS HOW ANNOYING YOU ARE!"
He was fired immediately, even though this probably never actually happened. THAT is how careful these programs are to make sure that no such abuse can occur. Staff are never--EVER--alone with a student. All it takes is one vindictive kid deciding he doesn't like you and saying you said mean things to him to get you canned unless someone else was there who can vouch that it didn't occur.
I will answer any questions completely and to the best of my ability, as I believe I have certain insights that most students of these programs don't (that is, seeing both sides of the industry).
-
Kidnapping Isn't Therapy, Dad & Son Say (http://www.courthousenews.com/2013/07/03/59062.htm)
(By NICK DIVITO, Courthouse News Service, July 03 2013)
CENTRAL ISLIP, N.Y. (CN) - A camp that claims to treat "adolescent problems" kidnapped a 16-year-old boy and forced him to live in the Utah wilderness for a month, the boy and his father claim in court.
Kenneth Decter and his son Andrew sued Second Nature Therapeutic Program LLC, Right Direction Crisis Intervention, Skezics Corp. dba Right Direction Crisis Intervention, and Brian T. Shepherd, the owner of the camp where Andrew allegedly was held, in Federal Court.
Andrew Decter was living with his mother in Manhasset, and was about to enter his senior year, where he played tuba in the high school band and was a technical director of the theater program at his high school, his father says in the complaint.
"Andrew has no criminal record and no history of disciplinary problems in school," the complaint states. "Andrew has never had a problem with drugs or alcohol."
But at 5 a.m. on June 20, 2012, Andrew was awakened by three large men - two of them standing over his bed and the other blocking the door to Andrew's bedroom, according to the complaint.
Andrew tried to escape, but "defendants told Andrew his attempts to leave would be fruitless," the complaint states. "The employees, servants and/or agents of the defendants told Andrew they were taking him into custody and taking him out of his home in New York and to the airport so they could transport him to Utah.
"The defendants told Andrew that they would stop any attempt by him to escape.
"Andrew was terrified and feared for his life.
"Andrew begged the defendants to let him talk to his father, Kenneth Decter. The defendants refused.
"Andrew also begged to speak with his attorney and friend. The defendants refused.
"Andrew briefly attempted to flee, but to no avail."
Kenneth Decter says the men put his son in the back of what appeared to be an unmarked police car, flanked by two of the men so that he couldn't escape. The back door was fixed so it could not be opened from the inside. They took him to the airport.
"During various times of the kidnapping of Andrew, the defendants displayed their handcuffs to Andrew and repeatedly threatened Andrew that it would not be worth it for him to try to escape," according to the complaint.
Andrew was taken "like a prisoner" to the defendants' Second Nature Therapeutic Program camp in the Utah wilderness, his father says.
"When Andrew arrived in Utah, he was put in what can only be described as prisoner type clothing - an orange jumpsuit," according to the complaint.
"Each night Andrew's sneakers/boots were taken from him so as to prevent his escape.
"During his imprisonment in the wilderness, Andrew was forced to backpack numerous miles each day through grueling terrain. He was only fed freeze-dried food. In the month Andrew was held captive, he lost nearly 25 pounds."
He was forced to wear the same clothes for nearly a month, and "could not take off the prison uniform he was given because of the mosquitoes in the forest," the father says.
"When Andrew requested to take a shower he was given a bag of water to rinse himself," the complaint states.
He was held from June 20, 2012 to July 17, 2012, according to the complaint.
Second Nature claims on its website, checked Tuesday, that it "was founded on the idea that struggling adolescents and their families deserve quality clinical treatment, combined with sensitivity and compassion. Second Nature sets the standard for individualized treatment, family involvement, clinical sophistication and unparalleled customer service."
The camp's population allegedly includes people suffering with depression, bipolar disorder, substance abuse, academic failure, low self-esteem, ADHD, "learning differences," "identity issues," "social problems," "sexual promiscuity/acting out," Asperger's syndrome, domestic abuse and other problems.
Andrew's requests to speak to his father or his attorney "were completely ignored and/or denied by the defendants, until the morning of July 17, 2012, when the frightened 16-year-old was first allowed to speak with his father Kenneth on the phone," according to the complaint.
Kenneth Decter claims a Second Nature employee told him that the facility could neither "confirm nor deny" that it was holding Andrew there.
The Decters' attorney tried to speak with he boy and get updates on his health and well-being, but the defendants refused his requests, the father and son say.
"Kenneth was forced to file a petition in New York State Court for a write of habeas corpus in order to have contact" with his son, according to the complaint.
"After much pressure," defendants allowed Kenneth to speak with a "therapist" who told him his son was fine, the lawsuit states.
Kenneth had to file several motions with New York State Supreme Court in Nassau County. The court eventually granted his request and signed the writ of habeas corpus, requiring defendants to release Andrew and send him home.
The Decters claim that Andrew then was simply dropped off at the airport "with no instruction or direction on where to go."
"Andrew continues to suffer from severe emotional distress in that he is, amongst other things, anxious, nervous, scared, worried, apprehensive and/or restless because of the fear of being abducted again," the complaint states.
The Decters seek costs and punitive damages for false imprisonment, assault, intentional infliction of emotional distress, abduction and conspiracy.
They are represented by Timothy Kilgannon, with Kilgannon & Kilgannon, of Mineola, N.Y.