Author Topic: Karen In Dallas  (Read 46070 times)

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Offline OverLordd

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« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2005, 04:01:00 PM »
Oh man! I love UFC! it rocks!!! the matches are bit to short some times though, and yes, that is something I would like to see, a match like that. haha.  :rofl:
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our walking down a hallway, you turn left, you turn right. BRICK WALL!

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Offline Nonconformistlaw

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« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2005, 04:07:00 PM »
I agree with every word 100%. I just wanted to add one thing to what Deborah said.

---"When they got older I?d give them 5 minutes to spout off every nasty, mean thing they were thinking. Every single thing they resented me for. No holds barred. No resentment. When they were done letting off steam (letting me know what a shit I was), they?d return to their normal reasonable selves, capable of having a discussion or negotiating. I didn?t require an apology, but most times got one."---

I've done this exact same thing myself as a mentor, except that I dont limit the time ---I give them as long as they need, especially with the ones I mentored in juvenile detention centers. I think its effective because kids get to express/vent anger. And, by allowing the child to rant on and on for a while...someone is finally listening to them, showing them respect and validating their feelings....Kids constantly complain that adults wont listen to anything they have to say. And to a large extent, they are often right, that no one is listening. So, by listening to their anger and various rantings, I'm convinced that most kids become a lot more willing to listen to the adult, because its mutual cooperation, without coercion.

That said, some kids just are not interested in being reached in any way, period. And that is their choice. But showing genuine interest in kids, their anger, frustrations, pain, etc, can go a long way, for those who are interested in being reached.

Anyway, I agree that this kind of venting/validation should be a huge part of therapy, parent/child relationships, friendships, heck all relationships! ::rainbow::
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Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2005, 04:19:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-08-06 13:01:00, OverLordd wrote:

"Oh man! I love UFC! it rocks!!! the matches are bit to short some times though, and yes, that is something I would like to see, a match like that. haha.  :rofl: "


Vitor Belfort sprinting out into the ring and kneeing Jay Kay in the forehead and splitting it open would be absolutely awesome :grin:

Any priest or shaman must be presumed guilty until proven innocent.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2005, 04:54:00 PM »
I certainly would not cut it off at 5 minutes if more were needed. I'm extremely patient with the process and took nothing personally. 5 minutes was usually more than enough for my kids, probably because they had always had that outlet and didn't have years of resentment stored up. The longer periods would flucuant between anger, crying, laughing, rationalizing. Most times it turned out to be some stupid thing that happened at school or some stupid thing I did and had to cop to.

I do this with adults in my life too. If it's obvious that someone is angry with me, I invite them to let it rip. You'd be surprised how many people can't, when given the opportunity. I have just found that there is not going to be any useful dialogue until they have vented their anger. Part of this is strictly selfish. I like efficiency, and do not like to waste my time trynig to rationalize with an angry person. It's just as useless as trying to talk sense to someone when they're two sheets to the wind.


[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2005-08-06 14:19 ]
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Offline Shortbus

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« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2005, 05:24:00 PM »
I try to remind myself that when a student is acting out its not usually about me, its about something thats going on with them. I listen to them, try to understand whats going on with them and wait. The hardest part for me is to not take it personally especially when youve been with them a few weeks and they know your buttons. Its also hard because as staff you just cant walk away. You have to be there to make sure everyone stays safe. Respect goes a long way, and when appropriate so does some humor. Its hard to be really really pissed off when youre laughing.[ This Message was edited by: Shortbus on 2005-08-06 15:59 ]
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Offline Nonconformistlaw

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« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2005, 05:31:00 PM »
I did not mean to suggest that you limit your kids to a 5 minute time limit as a definite cut off.  :smile: I think in your role as a parent, since you have consistently allowed your children to vent as you said, then 5 minutes or so (sometimes longer)might be all they need.

For kids in juvenile detention, since most of these kids never seem to have had any healthy outlet, I give them free rein on the venting because of their circumstances. And I occasionally throw in my thoughts, or ask a question to keep them going, but the vast majority of the time, they have the floor. For them it may take hours, days, weeks, months, etc. to express years of pent up rage and to learn to express their anger in words, not by acting out. I suspect kids in "programs" would also need free rein as well.

Anyway, I applaud the parenting/therapy "venting technique." I was really just elaborating on your point with my experience doing the same thing. I wish "programs" would give the idea serious consideration. It stands a chance of making a difference whereas coercion will only create more anger, that a kid will need to vent later, one way or another.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2005, 05:46:00 PM »
Yeh, I didn't get that you were implying that.
It was refresing too to hear that someone was doing this in the JJ system. Those were some lucky kids!! And I'd imagine that for some of them it might take hundreds of hours.

What did your peers/superiors think? Was it accepted or did you have to fly under the radar?

When my older son returned from a program with 'PTSD' I was frequently up til the wee hours of the morning. Listening and listening and listening. Not so much venting anger, as crying and sorting out confusion.

I don't know if it would ever be adopted by a program. It's time consuming, would require special training, but most of all... it goes against the current erroneous belief that- If you can make a person ACT OK, then they ARE OK. Feelings are to be suppressed and controlled, with BM, and drugs if need be. Wrong.


[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2005-08-06 15:05 ]
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2005, 06:03:00 PM »
Shortbus,
My guess, in your situation you had assumed the role of authority in their lives, therefore all their pent up resentments and anger toward their parents, teachers, judges, etc got laid on you. Plus man, you were participating in their incarceration by 'colluding' with the 'enemy'.

Not taking things personally is essential, but hard to do sometimes.

Your comment about humor is soo true. I always hated the constant, unrelenting somber tone of the staff at the facility. Enough to depress the most happy person. Laughing alters brain chemistry in a positive way. Why would they keep kids in a constant state of seriousness. It's like a convent or something. Like it's a sin to be happy. You're not 'working your program' OR 'you're not looking at your issues' if you're the least bit happy. Happiness only allowed at group assemblies with choreographed performances always of a 'therapeutic' nature. A smile could be covering a lie or run plan. Best break out a restriction.
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline OverLordd

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« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2005, 07:01:00 PM »
Quote
Vitor Belfort sprinting out into the ring and kneeing Jay Kay in the forehead and splitting it open would be absolutely awesome  

Then again, Id rather just let Vanderlei Silva go 1v1 with everyone one after another and have a ton of mops on hand  


Dude, as long as there are some submission holds tossed in I'm happy. "What, you want to tap out, no you still seem like you might get up and hurt some one or your self, sorry."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
our walking down a hallway, you turn left, you turn right. BRICK WALL!

GAH!!!!

Yeah, hes a survivor.

Offline Shortbus

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« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2005, 07:09:00 PM »
THere were times that I got sooooo sick of therapy... and I could never dish out consequences that had no purpose. That doesnt teach anything. If a student doesnt want to build a shelter, fine but if it rains youll get wet. I had better things to do than punish. As far as I was concerned that wasnt my job. If Suzies job tonight is to build a fire and she doesnt then you guys work it out. THe students I had were pretty good at calling bullshit and policing each other. Not always but if they were, then great, it made my job easier. And fun, theres absolutely no reason why a certain amount of time every day should not be dedicated to fun.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2005, 07:53:00 PM »
Well, I guess you could say it was under the radar when I did some JJ detention mentoring, but after doing it twice, I gave a program proposal to the Juvenile Judge who had given me permission to talk to detention kids in the first place (I took several classes in undergrad from this particular judge who taught on the side). And since I was not an employee of the system, what I did was strictly voluntarily...I was just lucky know the right person at the right time.

The judge gave me the go ahead for the mentoring proposal and instructed her staff (primarily the probation dept.) to work with me and make it happen. Then, while in the midst of working out the details, along came law school. I had to move three hours away from home to attend, so it was impossible to continue the project. But I have not forgotten it and will revive it at the first opportunity I get, after graduation, the bar exam, and moving back home.

As far as the reception the idea received from those in the JJ system...mixed...I saw both enthusiam, total support, skepticism and out right rejection of the idea. The judge and the supervisory probation officers were the ones enthusiastic and supportive...while the "lower" probation officers/staff generally were pessimistic and very negative.

Another interesting thing....I notice the same combination of attitudes, positive and negative in the juvenile court where I externed last year. (I didnt get to propose that idea while there...at that time I was focused on abuse, neglect, and dependency). Both my home town and the place where I attend law school have what they call Model Courts (See, National Council of Juvenile and Family Court Judges-- http://www.ncjfcj.org) Although by no means perfect, and while there are still plenty of problems with the JJ system, the Model Courts seem to have one thing with potential going for them...willingness to try new ideas and then share those ideas, both their successes and failures, with other juvenile courts around the country....In my opinion, these courts are the most ideal place in the JJ system for trying to get mentoring off the ground again. And the juvenile justice system may have the potential to influence private programs, especially because the juvenile courts routinely refer kids and parents to them.

One of the obstacles to getting mentoring off the ground is finding people that would be happy to spend hours on end with these kids. Because after hours of sifting through the anger, next comes all the emotions, if you can get a kid to that point, which then takes more endless hours with kids. And for mentoringing to work it does take time. The challenge is to convince people in the system that its worth every minute, that those kids desperately need the attention. If money were not an issue I would love to mentor full time, but gotta pay the astronomical school debt.

And you are right, it would take convincing a lot of people do steer away from what I call "bandaid solutions" that try to correct outward behavior, and do  nothing to help kids through the cause of theirs actions....the pain, whatever the source of their pain may be. And convincing the JJ system that coercive tactics are inhumane, ineffective, and exaccerbate kids "issues"
....well, thats another challenge altogether. Then, trying to convince them all these kids really are not bad and have a lot of potential if given a real chance....well, yet another obstacle...

But then again, if enough people start shaking up the system, programs, etc. with new ideas that dont involve force, maybe they'll have to take notice! Who knows , its worth a shot. And I know there are at least some out there who would take notice.

BTW, there is at least some recognition within the JJ system that coercive programs are bad news, I just dont know how common that attitude is yet, but it is a ray of hope I guess you could say.
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Offline Nonconformistlaw

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« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2005, 07:56:00 PM »
Oops, I forgot to use my user name...the previous, extremely long post about mentoring in the JJ system was from me, nonconformistlaw. :smile:
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2005, 08:45:00 PM »
"karenindallas SAID

?I hate fornits so much, I am going to write my congressman a letter and tell him. Yes, I have THAT much free time and nothing better to do. You think you are all that-- let me tell you, you are not. I am a lawyer and am much smarter than everyone here. Much smarter. So much, I am surprised any of you can read, let alone type."

This post was not made by Karen. She has not posted on this board in days. This was one of you pretending to be her.
Enjoy arguing with yourselves.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2005, 08:54:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-08-06 12:23:00, Deborah wrote:

While the restraint is happening the restrainer is holding the kid in the highest regard. He is always aware that the kid (or adult) is unable to think rationally due to the anger, therefore can?t control his anger. So the restrainer puts the kid in a safe hold and states the truth while the restraint is happening, ?I?m going to hold you until your anger has passed. I can?t allow you to hurt yourself or others. When you?ve calmed down we?ll discuss what upset you. Your anger may be justified, but hurting yourself or others is not.?


Deb, I think your idea depends on sane people being in charge. The above is just exactly what they said in Straight. Follow me on just a short trip into Loony Land if you want to understand it.

According to Program dogma, we all were desperate druggies who would have been deadinsaneorinjail w/o the Program. So, by not working the program or by disrupting the working of the program for others (i.e. by expressing a dissenting view of any kind, for example) was, in fact, risking your own life and the lives of others. That's not just a guess. We said it outright to each other when called upon by staff to confront the misebehaver. "Johnny, I'm so pissed off at you! I'm here to get straight and when you sing druggie songs it brings me down. You don't have the right to risk my life like that. But we love you so we're gonna keep the pressure on you till you start to see the light and start getting yourself straight!"

See how that works? If you're determined enough, you can make a threat to self or others out of something as subtle as an eye roll or an unauthorized smile or conversation.

I really don't understand what it is about families like mine and all the rest who wind up in this industry. I knew a lot of sane people who's parents regarded the whole thing as absolutely lunatic. I don't think you can pass a law requiring people to be sane about these things, far less enforce it. I think the most effective thing we can do is just to get the word out on how crazy this whole thing is. At least then maybe some of the potential marks will see them coming and pass them by.

The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind.
--Marquis de Sade, French libertine

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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2005, 10:53:00 PM »
Yeh Ginger, precisely. I'd rather a staff shoot my son with a sedative dart gun than restrain him, cause I know the intention and potential for injury and death, not to mention the psych/emotional damage.
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700