Author Topic: Karen In Dallas  (Read 46068 times)

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Offline OverLordd

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Karen In Dallas
« on: August 05, 2005, 09:57:00 PM »
I'll tell her she has been challenged here. I cannot say she will respond, infact I think she said she would not longer post, but I will ask.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
our walking down a hallway, you turn left, you turn right. BRICK WALL!

GAH!!!!

Yeah, hes a survivor.

Offline Anonymous

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Karen In Dallas
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2005, 09:58:00 PM »
If you build it, they will come.

In due time, all in due time.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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Karen In Dallas
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2005, 09:54:00 AM »
karenindallas SAID

?I hate fornits so much, I am going to write my congressman a letter and tell him. Yes, I have THAT much free time and nothing better to do. You think you are all that-- let me tell you, you are not. I am a lawyer and am much smarter than everyone here. Much smarter. So much, I am surprised any of you can read, let alone type.

I will spend everyday of the rest of my life at Fornits just to counter-point all your arguments programs are bad. It is my duty. No-- the programs don't pay me, I do this all on my own merit. Why? Because I think every teen is evil and should be locked away. You damn kids--- you never learn. Soon I will have all people who post on fornits arrested, I am THAT powerful. Watch and see.

The programs will never be shut down!! Keep trying though IDIOTS!?

(Same message is posted elsewhere)

Hey KarininDallas! Guess what, I am soon to be a LAWYER TOO! As an adult, I think you are by far the most childish so-called adult I have seen in a long time. And I am not the least bit impressed by your rantings. I despise the way you insult posters here and seem to think you are some superior person because you?re a lawyer. Big deal. And I hate to break it to you?.lawyers are NOT smarter than the rest of the world.

You?ve met you match?..let me tell you what I intend to do with my legal career and the ?power? (as you call it)  that comes with it. Prove that kids are NOT evil!?That they need love, compassion, and understanding?and yes, discipline?and, parents that can accept some amount of responsibility for their children?s problems because all relationships are a two-way street. I also intend to spread the word about how damaging certain program can be, but support those few programs that DO NOT abuse, demoralize, humiliate nor engage in coercive tactics. And while you are busy trying to arrest them?I will be very busy fighting, as a lawyer, on their behalf.

I am one former ?troubled teen,? who has done time in Straight, Inc., and will not rest until the hell I went through there becomes something good. Yes, I have ?tuned my life around? as a program would say?.BUT Straight is NOT what "turned me around." It took years after getting out that hell before I could put Straight/HELL behind me and move on...Oh and one other thing?I back up all the former Straightlings (and other drug war POW?s) here that posted?.they have perfectly valid reasons to be angry and make numerous valid points?the only difference is I know how to play lawyer ?games.?  And I will spend the rest of my life supporting them and supporting and fighting for the kids who now stand in the shoes we once stood.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2005, 10:26:00 AM »
I'm used to the lawyer jokes...and completely understand why people hate lawyers so much, and the jokes reflect that.

But, some lawyers are actually awesome people...you just have to weed through a lot of nasty ones to find them...I swim in a shark tank so to speak.

I realize that my previous post was a rather long winded...

But, people like KareninDallas infuriate me because of her hateful posts and refusal to see the bad side of programs. Three Springs Waygookin, I much prefer to see your posts because they are thought provoking, even when I disagree with you. (BTW, sometimes I agree with you too). You demonstrate a willingness to look at both sides of programs, the good and bad, which is a good thing.

I do recognize that some programs are good, but hope to see that someday, good programs are the norm and bad ones no longer exist. I want kids to get the right kind of help, not the kind that makes everything worse for them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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Karen In Dallas
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2005, 11:11:00 AM »
OK here it goes?.hopefully, toward the goal of meaningful debate that includes AND validates both sides of the coin (I agreed with your last post to that effect).

You said on the DATELINE TONIGHT: Restraint Deaths thread:

?I have restrained alot of kids in my day as a counselor. I think the actual count in four years of counseling was over 200 restraints? Not many of my kids seemed to be scared of getting restrained as they kept doing the same crazy crap again, and again. Sometimes I would restrain them, and have to do it again 5 minutes later for the same kid?..

?.My point is I have never seen a restraint go for more than 10 minutes tops?..

?.Restraints are part of the business and should only be used for when the kid is ACTIVELY hurting himself, or another?..

I said on the DATELINE TONIGHT: Restraint Deaths thread:

?The effect: Instill fear into kids so that they submit, comply, and so that they never show any disagreement with the "program" while in the "troubled teen facility"---The Message - just do whatever they say to get out of there! (which means kids learn little because their compliance is solely to avoid restraints, humiliation, or other consequences).?

AND Now?..

For the record, In Straight, restraints were never as brief as 10 minutes?.most were for many, many hours to all day long?that said?I realize your experience as a counselor is different than this, but what I saw was downright inhumane.

What I disagree with, is that some of use WERE terrified seeing other kids restrained, which is why some appear to be ?compliant with the program.? That compliance, for many, was superficial, just to survive and get OUT! I also saw a few kids ?take the program to heart.? But I noticed something else, the kids that were restrained were usually the same ones over and over again?ever heard of the Labeling Theory? Its my opinion that it is alive an well in programs. Certain kids are labeled in the program as ?troublemakers? or in Straight, Inc., they were called ?misbehavers.? So, from my personal observations, I think restraints happen more often than not as a result of the label?.I rarely saw restraint to prevent harm to another child or to prevent self inflicted harm.

I do agree with you, although reluctantly, that restraints become needed BUT ONLY if a kid is about to inflict serious harm to another or to himself, but ONLY then. I think most situations can be diffused by other means?.and I believe you made a point on another post about the need to diffuse situations, which, in my opinion is valid (just not with restraints).

Another long winded post?.:smile:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2005, 11:27:00 AM »
I could not agree more... I've observed many lawyers who absolutely feed off people creating situations....and on the other side of the coin, I also know that lawyers, once they take a case, or are told to, must advocate for the client's position (not their own personal views). So many lawyers are either shamelessly profiting off people who really dont have a case OR are obligated to advocate for a ridiculous "created" position because lawyer ethical codes bind them to do so.

So to an extent you are completely right about the legal profession. But, sadly I have seen people who really have a case get turned away because the potential client's damages aren't "high enough" to take their case on (translation, not a profitable case), which really pisses me off by the way. I have also seen people who justifiably need legal help, but just cant afford it. And in the mix of all this crap, there are lawyers like the one you mentioned in Wash. State, who are awesome people trying to help people in a very screwed up, yet sometimes noble profession.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Shortbus

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Karen In Dallas
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2005, 11:38:00 AM »
Lawyers - restaurants - programs - toothpaste. Too many choices. Sometimes the wrong choice costs you just a couple bucks, sometimes thousands. I appreciate all the different perspectives I get to read on this site. There are some many different experiences and they are all valid. I know my thoughts on the wilderness therapy industry are changing.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
ts never too late to procrastinate

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2005, 11:53:00 AM »
I like all the different perspectives too and just wish that personal attacks were not a part of it. For personal attacks and refusal to recognize all sides of an issue, is what keeps people so divided, at each other's throats, and prevents finding any common ground.

If only more people could understand importance of what you just said Shortbus. "There are some many different experiences and they are all valid." I would add...all of them are valid, including "troubled kids," angry POW's, counselor's, and parents. And including "experts" and various personal experiences. (minus the name calling, narrow mindedness, and other personal attacks)
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Offline OverLordd

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« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2005, 01:08:00 PM »
Any one that said a kid should be dropped was seemingly never droped themselves. I guess they just can understand what it feels like to be attacked by 3 or 4 people bigger than you are. Its like a gang attack or something. So if any staff member ever stays anything like this and I worked there, I would get abunch of big staff members, and drop him, then ask. "Well still wanna drop the kid?"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
our walking down a hallway, you turn left, you turn right. BRICK WALL!

GAH!!!!

Yeah, hes a survivor.

Offline Anonymous

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Karen In Dallas
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2005, 01:11:00 PM »
If youve been through training that was thorough, you know what its like to be in different holds or to be dropped.
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Offline OverLordd

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Karen In Dallas
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2005, 01:52:00 PM »
I was more inforcing the idea of "Walk a mile in a persons shoes." Because if something happens to a person that they dont like then they are less likely to do it to another person, at least if they have a ounce of humanity in them. I believe the entire industry would just implode if parents were required to go through a week of what these kids went through. Its idealism I know, and it would never happen, but its still the principle of the thing.[ This Message was edited by: OverLordd on 2005-08-06 10:53 ]
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
our walking down a hallway, you turn left, you turn right. BRICK WALL!

GAH!!!!

Yeah, hes a survivor.

Offline Nonconformistlaw

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Karen In Dallas
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2005, 02:39:00 PM »
I decided, since there are apparently two lawyers around here, I should go by some kind of name to avoid being mistaken for KareninDallas, which I am definitely not! :exclaim:, which are very good questions by the way. I?d love to see independent research on those issues as well.
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quot;In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.\" George Orwell

Offline Nonconformistlaw

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Karen In Dallas
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2005, 02:58:00 PM »
Again, I think you ask very good and valid questions and I would love to see the research on them as well. ::bigsmilebounce::  ::bigsmilebounce::  ::bigsmilebounce:: here?s how I think Straight would have responded to your questions. (I've actually heard them respond to items 1 and 2 numerous times while "in the program" and 3 is a true fact, but never actually heard them have the nerve to use that line to respond to similar questions)

1)   70% success rate
2)   They all relapsed because they stopped  
        applying their program.
3)   Nancy Reagan came to visit and loved
        Straight! Why, we have the endorsement of
        the White House!!!  :eek:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
quot;In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.\" George Orwell

Offline Nihilanthic

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Karen In Dallas
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2005, 03:11:00 PM »
Just for kicks:

Today, on Spike TV, theres gonna be a live UFC on at about 9 pm EST (check listings to be sure).

If you wanan see what restraining someone is REALLY like, try watching this. And FWIW, Id *LOVE* to see "Randy Couture vs the staff of Tranquility Bay"  :grin:

Applying computer technology is simply finding the right wrench to pound in the correct screw.
--Bastard Administrator

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Deborah

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Karen In Dallas
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2005, 03:23:00 PM »
This debate re: restraint goes in circles because the majority of people consider it okay to use restraint as punishment, as a deterrent to ?undesirable? behavior, and to instill fear. Progress on this issue will not happen until it is dismantled and analyzed. I think those are all the wrong reasons to use it for the same reason I think corporal punishment is wrong.

Think about it.
A kid gets angry. He is too far gone to be rational. De-escalation doesn?t calm him. He is becoming violent.
Anger and rational thought are like oil and water. Rational thought is impossible when someone is lost in anger, particularly when it has escalated to potential violence.

There would be two reasons that I can think of where restraint in this situation could be considered a therapeutic tool.
To genuinely protect him from hurting self and others.
To provide some resistance- an aid in helping him to vent the anger.

Restraint can be potentially very useful depending on the attitude of the person conducting the restraint.

While the restraint is happening the restrainer is holding the kid in the highest regard. He is always aware that the kid (or adult) is unable to think rationally due to the anger, therefore can?t control his anger. So the restrainer puts the kid in a safe hold and states the truth while the restraint is happening, ?I?m going to hold you until your anger has passed. I can?t allow you to hurt yourself or others. When you?ve calmed down we?ll discuss what upset you. Your anger may be justified, but hurting yourself or others is not.?

Not unlike what we see when a teen (or adult) gets into a confrontation that is heading for a fist fight. Four or five of the kid?s friends will come to his aid; circling around him, holding him back and trying to talk him down. It?s pretty much instinctual, common sense.  Just as when a parent swoops up a raging toddler who?s about to go ballistic on his friend, and ?holds? them until they have settled down. Those are useful restraints and there is no intention of hurting the teen/child. If the child struggles to get away, the parent does not squeeze the life out of the child. They reposition themselves to avoid being hurt or hurting the child.

That?s a whole different experience than ?I?m going to hold your ass down till you stop exhibiting anger. I?m going to cause you pain until you submit.? And so many times in programs, kids are baited because the staff enjoys restraining. They probably love to take them behind the woodshed for a whopping, but can?t. On the other hand, sadistic restraints are allowed and written-off as ?therapeutic?. If the kid dies due to the restraint, no problem, we?ll call ?Excited Delirium Syndrome? and blame the kid?s behavior for his own death.

So, in a sadistic hold the kid stops. What happened to the anger? Did it magically disappear? No. So, what might happen? It comes out more covertly in passive aggressive ways. The kid gets more clever in his attempt to seek revenge for being hurt, yet again, by a misguided authoritarian adult.

I have seen thoughtful therapeutic holds and they can actually go a long way in developing deep trust between a kid and his care giver because it is done with genuine respect, depending on what happens during and afer the restraint. It?s all about the intention and it has to clear and genuine. And don?t think that kids can?t discern the difference. If you restrain a kid for the purpose of punishment and to establish your power over the kid, you may see him ?act? better, but has anything of real therapeutic value actually occurred? No. Just another authoritarian adult who has forced their will and not made a difference at all in the kid?s perception, or addressed the kid?s real need. In this case, you may as well be beating the kid. It?s just another form of abusive punishment.

There are other ways to aid a kid in venting his anger. One way that my son found particularly useful was to get in the sauna. He was 18 and attended a voluntary rehab to avoid court ordered (ineffective) rehab. They would go to the ?box? when anger surfaced. He said it was very effective.

I used to give my kids pillows to hit/kick. Very effective for younger kids. Batakas are great. They can whack the crap out of you and it doesn?t hurt.  I wrestled with them which would eventually turn into a giggle fest. They had a punching bag and gloves. Kids love to break things when they?re angry so we had a place they could throw empty glass bottles against rocks without getting hurt.
When they got older I?d give them 5 minutes to spout off every nasty, mean thing they were thinking. Every single thing they resented me for. No holds barred. No resentment. When they were done letting off steam (letting me know what a shit I was), they?d return to their normal reasonable selves, capable of having a discussion or negotiating. I didn?t require an apology, but most times got one.
There are sooo many ways to let them safely vent their frustration and anger, these are but a few.
When my younger son was incarcerated in the TBS he?d tell me how angry he'd get due to the petty BS and baiting. I?d ask him if there was any activity available that might be useful to vent his anger, like throwing a ball as hard as he could against the side of a building, etc. These discussion were difficult to have with him since someone was always listening. I felt sure that they would do everything in their power to interfere with him gaining access to a ball, or whatever.

If you are conducting restraints for any other purpose than genuine protection or to aid the kid in venting anger, you are doing it for the wrong reasons, and it has no ?therapeutic? value.
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gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700