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Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Teen Challenge => Topic started by: TC_Saved_Me on December 09, 2011, 10:31:47 AM

Title: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on December 09, 2011, 10:31:47 AM
Well, I've been reading through some of these Discussion Boards, and thought that my input might carry some weight.  Since I have actually been enrolled in Teen Challenge, and successfully completely both phases of the program, unlike some other people who are posting on here...

When I went into Teen Challenge, I was court ordered because I had been arrested three times in just under a year.  All of the arrest were drug-related offenses.  To make a long story short, I was raised in a church, and never even liked going to church when I was invited.  But by the time I was arrested for the third time, I was completely addicted to drugs & alcohol, and was desperate to get myself clean, so I thought I'd try Teen Challenge.

The program had a very strict curriculum, and I wanted to leave the program several times (Once you are in the program, you are free to leave whenever you choose, but you cannot come back for a certain amount of time once you do).  If I wasn't court-ordered to finish Teen Challenge, I probably would have left to be honest.  But I stuck it out, and did my best to follow all of the rules that were enforced.  The consequences for breaking the rules vary, but you normally will have to do extra chores, and memorize more scriptures out of the Bible.

The program is basically: very structured, work responsibilities, Bible classes, required church attendence, scripture memorization, etc.  It was EXACTLY what I needed!  I'm not going to claim to be an expert on cults, but I believe most cults brainwash you to believe that someone or something in the confines of that cult should be worshipped.  Teen Challenge is not like that at all.  You are required to attend church services, but that's about it.  They don't strong-arm anyone to believe anything, they simply take an approach like most parents should when raising their children, "You're living under my roof, you will follow my rules.  If you don't follow my rules, you will have to pay consequences.  If you don't like the consequences, you are free to leave at any time."  It's that simple!

Anyway, as I stuck with the program, I tried to give this "Christianity" thing a serious try, and started praying and reading my bible daily.  Before I knew it, God had healed my body and my mind.  I was a new person by the time I left that program.  I never "worshipped" or "served" Teen Challenge while I was in the program, I was encouraged and learned how to "worhsip" and "serve" God.  That's it.

If you're still reading this, I have long been removed from Teen Challenge.  I am no longer affiliated with the program in any way.  But because of that "Cult," I have now been sober for 6 years, and have a beautiful wife and two beautiful daughters.  I'm a pretty decent husband, father, and man.   I attend church every Sunday, and pay my taxes.  I have a great job working for the US Army.  Basically, I'm now a normal person, and my family - who couldn't trust me as far as they could throw me when I was addicted to drugs - loves me more than ever before.  Teen Challenge did all of that for me.  If that's what a "cult" is, then I encouraged anyone with a life-controlling addiction to find the nearest cult, and get involved as soon as possible!  God Bless!
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: cmack on December 09, 2011, 12:05:31 PM
Quote from: "TC_Saved_Me"
Well, I've been reading through some of these Discussion Boards, and thought that my input might carry some weight.  Since I have actually been enrolled in Teen Challenge, and successfully completely both phases of the program, unlike some other people who are posting on here...

When I went into Teen Challenge, I was court ordered because I had been arrested three times in just under a year.  All of the arrest were drug-related offenses.  To make a long story short, I was raised in a church, and never even liked going to church when I was invited.  But by the time I was arrested for the third time, I was completely addicted to drugs & alcohol, and was desperate to get myself clean, so I thought I'd try Teen Challenge.

The program had a very strict curriculum, and I wanted to leave the program several times (Once you are in the program, you are free to leave whenever you choose, but you cannot come back for a certain amount of time once you do).  If I wasn't court-ordered to finish Teen Challenge, I probably would have left to be honest.  But I stuck it out, and did my best to follow all of the rules that were enforced.  The consequences for breaking the rules vary, but you normally will have to do extra chores, and memorize more scriptures out of the Bible.

The program is basically: very structured, work responsibilities, Bible classes, required church attendence, scripture memorization, etc.  It was EXACTLY what I needed!  I'm not going to claim to be an expert on cults, but I believe most cults brainwash you to believe that someone or something in the confines of that cult should be worshipped.  Teen Challenge is not like that at all.  You are required to attend church services, but that's about it.  They don't strong-arm anyone to believe anything, they simply take an approach like most parents should when raising their children, "You're living under my roof, you will follow my rules.  If you don't follow my rules, you will have to pay consequences.  If you don't like the consequences, you are free to leave at any time."  It's that simple!

Anyway, as I stuck with the program, I tried to give this "Christianity" thing a serious try, and started praying and reading my bible daily.  Before I knew it, God had healed my body and my mind.  I was a new person by the time I left that program.  I never "worshipped" or "served" Teen Challenge while I was in the program, I was encouraged and learned how to "worhsip" and "serve" God.  That's it.

If you're still reading this, I have long been removed from Teen Challenge.  I am no longer affiliated with the program in any way.  But because of that "Cult," I have now been sober for 6 years, and have a beautiful wife and two beautiful daughters.  I'm a pretty decent husband, father, and man.   I attend church every Sunday, and pay my taxes.  I have a great job working for the US Army.  Basically, I'm now a normal person, and my family - who couldn't trust me as far as they could throw me when I was addicted to drugs - loves me more than ever before.  Teen Challenge did all of that for me.  If that's what a "cult" is, then I encouraged anyone with a life-controlling addiction to find the nearest cult, and get involved as soon as possible!  God Bless!

Thanks for sharing your story, and congratulations on getting your life back on-track. You didn't say what your drug of choice was, but I'm assuming it was something more potent than marijuana. After three arrests in under a year it sounds like you were ready "desperate" to get clean and straighten your life out. I believe people change when they're ready to change. You found solace and redemption through faith. Others follow different paths to sobriety. But I don't think any program can be effective if the person isn't ready to change.

Are you willing to answer a few questions?

How much of your success do you attribute to the program, and how much to your own resolve and determination?

Do you believe all the rules and structures of Teen Challenge are necessary or are there changes you think could be made to make it a better program?

During your time with TC did you witness anything that think might be considered abusive?

Are you involved in any ongoing recovery work, 12-step, etc?

Thanks
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on December 09, 2011, 03:31:35 PM
I agree with you about the "prerequisite" of change being that you have to hit "rock bottom" first.  And I believe that "rock bottom" is very different for everybody.  I personally would have never entered the program if I hadn't been court ordered.   Like any rehab, Teen Challenge does not work for people who are not ready to change.  I have personally seen alot of men enter the program who hadn't hit rock bottom, only to leave the program and start using again.
 
To answer your questions:
I attribute my success to both myself and the program.  But mostly, as a Christian, I attribute all the credit of my sobriety to God.  Through faith, I believe that God gave me the strenght to endure the difficult curriculum of Teen Challenge, and He used that curriculum to change the way I think about things - the way I approach my life.

I'm really pumped that you asked me about the necessity of the rules, and I think I'm a great person to answer that question because I've actually been involved with about four difference Teen Challenge facilities, and each of them is run just a little bit different than the next.  The TC in San Diego, for example, is ALOT tougher than the one in Pittsburgh.  For me, I lean toward the importance of the rules and the structure because I believe that if it weren't for the rules enforced in San Diego (where I completed the first phase of the program),  I wouldn't have been humbled to the point where I needed to pray for God's strength to endure it.  I do believe that some people are different than me though, and respond better for grace and love.  I personally needed tough love.

In the 20 months that I was in Teen Challenge (2 weeks in Philly, 4 months in San Diego, 8 months in Riverside, CA and 6 months as an Intern in Pittsburgh, PA), I never witnessed anything that could have been considered abusive.  Although, there were times when I was too prideful to accept responsibility for my own behavior, and tried to construe my discipline as being abusive.  

To give some examples of times I was disciplined:  
1)  I lost phone privledges, and could not call home.
2)  I once was put on a "word fast" for talking back to staff and was not aloud to speak to other students for a week.  

In my mind, I tried to convince myself that they didn't have the right to do these things, so I could justify my own pride.  The fact is, I still had food to eat, I still had clothes to wear, I still had a bed to sleep in.  I had medical care available if I ever needed it for whatever reason, and I still have all the essentials I needed - not to mention that I could have left at any time without any repercussions.  
It wasn't abusive.  It was strict, and it was designed to teach me to lean on God for strength, and proved to be VERY effective.

As someone who has been through Navy bootcamp, I used to explain it like this to people:  Navy bootcamp is designed to break you down mentally and physically, so you learn to rely on the rest of your division - Teen Challenge is designed to break you down spiritually, so you learn to rely on your faith in God.

I have never been involved in any kind of on-going treatment since I left Teen Challenge (in March of 2008).  I could not, with good conscience, stand in front of a bunch of people every week and say, "Hi, my name is Barry and I'm a drug addict."  That is contrary to everything that I have come to believe while studying the Bible.  What I believe is that, "If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.  Old things have passed away, and all things have become new."  2 Corinthians 5: 17
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: cmack on December 09, 2011, 04:46:30 PM
Quote from: "TC_Saved_Me"
I agree with you about the "prerequisite" of change being that you have to hit "rock bottom" first.  And I believe that "rock bottom" is very different for everybody.  I personally would have never entered the program if I hadn't been court ordered.   Like any rehab, Teen Challenge does not work for people who are not ready to change.  I have personally seen alot of men enter the program who hadn't hit rock bottom, only to leave the program and start using again.
 
To answer your questions:
I attribute my success to both myself and the program.  But mostly, as a Christian, I attribute all the credit of my sobriety to God.  Through faith, I believe that God gave me the strenght to endure the difficult curriculum of Teen Challenge, and He used that curriculum to change the way I think about things - the way I approach my life.

I'm really pumped that you asked me about the necessity of the rules, and I think I'm a great person to answer that question because I've actually been involved with about four difference Teen Challenge facilities, and each of them is run just a little bit different than the next.  The TC in San Diego, for example, is ALOT tougher than the one in Pittsburgh.  For me, I lean toward the importance of the rules and the structure because I believe that if it weren't for the rules enforced in San Diego (where I completed the first phase of the program),  I wouldn't have been humbled to the point where I needed to pray for God's strength to endure it.  I do believe that some people are different than me though, and respond better for grace and love.  I personally needed tough love.

In the 20 months that I was in Teen Challenge (2 weeks in Philly, 4 months in San Diego, 8 months in Riverside, CA and 6 months as an Intern in Pittsburgh, PA), I never witnessed anything that could have been considered abusive.  Although, there were times when I was too prideful to accept responsibility for my own behavior, and tried to construe my discipline as being abusive.  

To give some examples of times I was disciplined:  
1)  I lost phone privledges, and could not call home.
2)  I once was put on a "word fast" for talking back to staff and was not aloud to speak to other students for a week.  

In my mind, I tried to convince myself that they didn't have the right to do these things, so I could justify my own pride.  The fact is, I still had food to eat, I still had clothes to wear, I still had a bed to sleep in.  I had medical care available if I ever needed it for whatever reason, and I still have all the essentials I needed - not to mention that I could have left at any time without any repercussions.  
It wasn't abusive.  It was strict, and it was designed to teach me to lean on God for strength, and proved to be VERY effective.

As someone who has been through Navy bootcamp, I used to explain it like this to people:  Navy bootcamp is designed to break you down mentally and physically, so you learn to rely on the rest of your division - Teen Challenge is designed to break you down spiritually, so you learn to rely on your faith in God.

I have never been involved in any kind of on-going treatment since I left Teen Challenge (in March of 2008).  I could not, with good conscience, stand in front of a bunch of people every week and say, "Hi, my name is Barry and I'm a drug addict."  That is contrary to everything that I have come to believe while studying the Bible.  What I believe is that, "If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.  Old things have passed away, and all things have become new."  2 Corinthians 5: 17


Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply. I can see how a strict program might be beneficial for some people. I can also see how certain people could be emotionally damaged from such a program. Truly, there is no one-size-fits-all program. I'm glad TC worked for you. I only hope others who seek help will have the options available and sufficient information to be able to choose the path/program that best suits them. Unfortunately for too many, especially minors, they are forced into programs that do more harm than good.

I agree with you that temporary loss of phone use and a 'word fast' don't seem to be particularly abusive.

I'm also glad to hear that you aren't involved in any kind of aftercare support group. You shouldn't view yourself as broken or as a prisoner of your past addiction. You've found the strength and salvation you needed through your Christian faith, and as you said "If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation". Your past is just that, your past. It's not something you have to be shackled to as you move forward in your life.

Congrats again, and best wishes for your future.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on December 09, 2011, 05:01:35 PM
Thank you Very much.  It's very refreshing to get an open-minded and respectful response from someone on here.

I just cannot understand how people think they can argue with someone's personal experience.  "No!  That's not what you experienced!  This is what you experienced!"   :beat:  It's hilarious!   :seg:
Title: .
Post by: cum guzzler on December 09, 2011, 05:13:08 PM
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Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: Anonymous on December 09, 2011, 05:14:48 PM
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Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: N.O.S.O.B. on December 09, 2011, 05:34:56 PM
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: N.O.S.O.B. on December 09, 2011, 05:36:54 PM
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: cmack on December 09, 2011, 05:54:35 PM
Quote from: "TC_Saved_Me"
Thank you Very much.  It's very refreshing to get an open-minded and respectful response from someone on here.

I just cannot understand how people think they can argue with someone's personal experience.  "No!  That's not what you experienced!  This is what you experienced!"   :beat:  It's hilarious!   :seg:

Some people were so traumatized and harmed by their program experience that they are unwilling or unable to accept that some others received any benefit at all. I am opposed to any kind of forced or coercive treatment. I think that many who run programs are in it just for the money and they lack the skills, knowledge, or heart to truly serve the individual needs of those placed in their care. I also realize that some people's pre-program life had become so bad and desperate that they were/are willing to overlook the faults and shortcomings of programs and cling to any tiny morsels of help they can find.

You have to realize that there are people on this forum who've lost years of their lives in programs who had done nothing to deserve being removed from their homes.

For a different perspective read this: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=36821&p=398796#p398796 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=36821&p=398796#p398796)

Here's a brief excerpt:
Quote
The well hidden secrets The Seed used were in reality fear, intimidation, brainwashing, rape, violence, imprisonment, confinement, ratting on peers for reward, and kidnapping. This was the daily life of anyone unfortunate to have been forced into Barker’s web of deceit.

Unfortunately, the author of this article’s mother was one of the parents that attended a Seed parent indoctrination. “My mother had done no research, or investigation into what the program was really all about. Parents that attended these meetings were given license plates to put on their cars to show their support for a program they actually knew nothing about. They were also expected to turn over their wallets. Those that couldn’t afford to pay large “donations” spent their time making hundreds of peanut butter sandwiches, and gallons of Kool Aid, which was the program’s main source of nutrition.”

“I was fourteen-years-old and oddly my mother volunteered to give me a ride to the beach so I could go surfing. This would be the first, and only time my mother ever offered me a ride to the beach. Instead of going to the beach, I was taken to an old abandoned blimp hangar that The Seed now called its home. This was to be an initial stop under the pretenses of paying a visit to my sisters, who had disappeared only a few days earlier. My mother drove into a well guarded gate and stopped as the barricades were removed. The guards waved my mothers car into the compound. These “guards” didn’t look like your typical security guard, they looked instead like low-level body building thugs. Once inside the gate, I was informed that I would not be going anywhere. That night would begin my indoctrination were I would spend twelve hours a day confined to a single chair, and then turned over to a complete stranger where I would spend the nights intentionally being deprived of sleep. Welcome to The Seed.”

“During the entire year I was forced to remain at The Seed, I wasn’t allowed to attend school, or to socialize with any of my friends. If one did so, they did it at their own peril, as this meant starting the entire program over from day one.”

“Earlier that same week my thirteen year old sister was removed from her junior high class by complete strangers, and dragged to a awaiting car where she would be rolled up in an old rug, thrown into the trunk, and ushered off to what would become a nightmare that stole a full year from her life. My older sister, who was sixteen at the time, had also been duped into the program.”

Having never used drugs or alcohol — a popular kid that loved to surf, play sports, run track, play music, and bike ride to the beach was suddenly forced to spend full days, day after day, after day listening to “druggies” tell horror stories of how drugs had turned them into sex slaves to obtain the cash they needed to get their next high. “My father who had no idea what was happening to his kids, was out of town in the northeast, and to make matters worse my parents were in the throws of a nasty divorce.”...

----------
Unlike most when I was incarcerated/imprisoned at The Seed, I refused to conform. I never participated in any of the mandatory “rap sessions,” instead I remained silent and oppositional. If they sat facing North, I sat facing South. If they stood up, I sat down. When they put their arms around each other singing stupid songs in praise of Barker, I would push their arms off of me. When they shouted “I love you, Jack.” I shook my head in disgust. When they kicked me and yelled at me, I refused to show any signs of fear. And to think I was merely fourteen years old at the time. I spent countless hours watching spiders make webs up in the rafters.

After about six months of being in that mess, The Seed staff decided to send me to a psychiatrist to find out how they could “reach” me. After being kicked, beaten, starved, deprived of sleep, and screamed at for months they couldn’t figure it out? Really? They were never going to “reach” me.

Upon entering the psychiatrist’s office I told him, “Lay down (on his sofa) and tell me your problems.” This surprised him; he asked me why I didn’t like The Seed. I said, “They force me to lie, and say I used drugs when I hadn’t. They told me if I don’t admit to using drugs, I’d never be allowed to go home or school again.” I told the “doctor, “I wanted to go to school, and I wanted to go surfing, but they wouldn’t let me.” I left the appointment with a letter from the doctor giving me “life-long” permission to surf. Wasn’t that very nice of him?

When it was someone’s birthday, they’d force us to stand, hold hands and sing happy birthday. On my fifteenth birthday, they sang, “Hit the road Jack and don’t you come back no more, no more. Hit the road Jack and don’t you come back no more.” I stood up and defiantly proclaimed that I had had enough and I was never going to come back ever again. Ever again! They had a good laugh about that, but, I had decided that I was never going back to that place and I didn’t. That was the best birthday gift I ever received and I gave it to myself. In reality, my mother probably couldn’t afford the long drives to south Miami, and then Fort Lauderdale, and probably lost interest. I’m sure the staff was equally as tired of a kid that they knew was not going to conform. After all, what did I have to lose as I was already not allowed to attend school for an entire year.

I stayed true to my word, and like nearly ever child that left The Seed voluntarily or throught the “graduation” process, never returned. Like most kids that left The Seed, I never returned to live with his family either.

I will never stop hating that pedophile known as Art Barker, and his demonic staff of criminals who thrived on causing pain and anguish to countless children. To this day, I can still see several of those constantly crying faces, and the stream of tears that often flowed down their faces, out of sheer helplessness....

---------

If Dante’s Inferno became a reality, no doubt Barker would face the gallows one day, a firing squad, lethal injection, and the electric chair in following succession. In a more humane hell, Barker deserves to be beaten to death, again and again by the scores of children that he physically, psychologically and emotionally raped in that experiment that had gone bad. But, then again… Who am I to judge? It’s not like after 35+ years that my time spent in that grotesque experiment had any long lasting and lingering affect on me. Right?
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: Awake on December 09, 2011, 07:00:07 PM
@ TC Saved Me. I am also glad to hear you have had success handling your addiction problems, and if your Christian faith was the answer that worked for you that is geat. For me some questions are, how does TC treat kids who don’t believe in Christianity or don’t want to subscribe to that religion? What if TC enforced following a different religion, a Muslim faith, Judaism, Hunduism, whatever? Would that have ended up being successful for you? Would you espouse those beliefs as you do Christianity? Would your support for the program now be different under those circumstances?
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on December 10, 2011, 12:04:54 PM
Quote from: "Awake"
@ TC Saved Me. I am also glad to hear you have had success handling your addiction problems, and if your Christian faith was the answer that worked for you that is geat. For me some questions are, how does TC treat kids who don’t believe in Christianity or don’t want to subscribe to that religion? What if TC enforced following a different religion, a Muslim faith, Judaism, Hunduism, whatever? Would that have ended up being successful for you? Would you espouse those beliefs as you do Christianity? Would your support for the program now be different under those circumstances?

That's very difficult to answer without offending some people, but I'll give it a shot.

First off, I don't know anything about how Teen Challenge treats kids.  I went into the program when I was an adult (the name of the program is pretty misleading because most Teen Challenge facilities are for adults 18 and over).

For adults, however, I actually went through the program with a person who was raised Mormon.  I know that's not exactly Judaism or Islam.  People in TC are allowed to believe whatever they choose to believe.  There are no repercussions for believing in something other than Christianity.  TC is a Christian program though (everyone who comes into the program knows that), and there are Bible classes and chapel services that each student is required to attend.  If the student does not want to follow these rules, they will be disciplined (extra work chores, extra scripture memorization, etc.)  If the student does not like that discipline, they are free to walk out of the program at any time.

Here comes the part I anticipate might not be received well, but this is what I believe... As a Christian, I believe that Jesus Christ is "The Way the Truth and the Life," and that "anyone who is in Christ is a new creation.  Old things have passed away, and all things have been made new."  Only through Christ, do I believe that I would have found salvation and sobriety.

I don't know what "espouse" means.  I would not personally financially support a program that was not Christian.  That's just my personal convictions though.  I believe that "faith" is the most obvious answer to curing an addiction though.  I believe that a person can put their faith in Allah or Buddah, and use that faith as a means to get sober - more because of psychological reasons than anything else though.  I do not believe that is a soul-saving kind of faith that will get them to heaven though.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: none-ya on December 10, 2011, 12:32:58 PM
Quote
TC-Saved-Me wrote;
I would not personally financially support a program that was not Christian.

I guess you won't be donating to fornits then.
Oh,and by the way,Buddha is not a god.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on December 10, 2011, 03:35:51 PM
Quote from: "none-ya"
Quote
TC-Saved-Me wrote;
I would not personally financially support a program that was not Christian.

I guess you won't be donating to fornits then.
Oh,and by the way,Buddha is not a god.

No, I would not financial support Fornits.  

And I never said that Buddha was a god.

Have I said something that has cause you to constantly challenge everything I post?
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: none-ya on December 10, 2011, 05:23:04 PM
Quote
TC-Saved-Me wrote;
I believe that a person can put their faith in Allah or Buddah, and use that faith as a means to get sober.

Buddhists do not pray to Buddha. In fact they do not pray to any god.
And yes to your latter question, just about everything you've written rubs me the wrong way. Organized religion is responsible for most of the worlds woes.Just because your blind faith got you sober, that's no excuse to ignore 5000yrs. of human history. I guess even the scientologists have cleaned up some people.(does that make them benevolent?) Trading drugs for religion is simply swaping addictions.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: DannyB II on December 10, 2011, 08:05:39 PM
Quote from: "none-ya"
Quote
TC-Saved-Me wrote;
I believe that a person can put their faith in Allah or Buddah, and use that faith as a means to get sober.

Buddhists do not pray to Buddha. In fact they do not pray to any god.
And yes to your latter question, just about everything you've written rubs me the wrong way. Organized religion is responsible for most of the worlds woes.Just because your blind faith got you sober, that's no excuse to ignore 5000yrs. of human history. I guess even the scientologists have cleaned up some people.(does that make them benevolent?) Trading drugs for religion is simply swaping addictions.

I can dig it...Ditto!!!
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: none-ya on December 10, 2011, 08:42:10 PM
[attachment=0:2b8utyhk]SIN.jpg[/attachment:2b8utyhk]
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: none-ya on December 11, 2011, 06:13:04 AM
Quote
TC_Saved_Me wrote;
 Before I knew it, God had healed my body and my mind.

That's known as detoxification. Available to Jews,Gentiles,and atheists alike.Tell me, if you cut yourself and grow a scab,was it God's doing? You got yourself clean,and from what I read,that's a good thing. But in the end,you are the one who made the nessasary changes in you life.Not an old white haired man who lives in the clouds, and hurls lightning bolts at the peasants.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on December 11, 2011, 09:49:28 AM
Quote from: "none-ya"
Quote
TC-Saved-Me wrote;
I believe that a person can put their faith in Allah or Buddah, and use that faith as a means to get sober.

Buddhists do not pray to Buddha. In fact they do not pray to any god.
And yes to your latter question, just about everything you've written rubs me the wrong way. Organized religion is responsible for most of the worlds woes.Just because your blind faith got you sober, that's no excuse to ignore 5000yrs. of human history. I guess even the scientologists have cleaned up some people.(does that make them benevolent?) Trading drugs for religion is simply swaping addictions.

You're still putting words in my mouth about Buddhists.  I never said they pray to Buddha.  I said they put their faith in Buddha - big difference.  Believing in someone, and praying to someone are two totally different things.

Even if it's true what you say that I traded one addiction for another, which it's not - but if it is - what's the problem with that?  I traded an addiction that had me lying to my family, robbing and stealing, wrecking cars, and losing job after job, for another "addiction" (as you are free to call it if you choose) that has me working hard for my money (in an honest way), serving the people around me, and urging young people not to get involved with drugs and make bad choices like I did.  

One addiction would have gotten me locked up or overdosed, the other - if I end up completely radicalized by my faith, at worst, gets me handing out gospel tracks at the local shopping mall.
Regardless of what you think about organized religion, is there anyone in here who can honestly say that I was better off before I became a Christian - that is if you believe that what I say is true about my personal experiences in life..??
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on December 11, 2011, 10:11:51 AM
Quote from: "none-ya"
[attachment=0:ros4c5ka]SIN.jpg[/attachment:ros4c5ka]

Hahaha!  Not quite that extreme, but there is definitely alot of discipline in the more successful programs!

From a Christian standpoint, I'd put Jesus against that tree taking that beating.  That's what we believe.  We committed all the offense, but He took our punishment for us.

That's why we don't have to take the beating - because He took it for us!  And I am grateful to Him, that despite the fact that I still have hate and pride in my life, the beating that He took for me is still good enough that I might be forgiven.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: DannyB II on December 11, 2011, 10:49:06 AM

TC_Saved_Me wrote:
"Even if it's true what you say that I traded one addiction for another, which it's not - but if it is - what's the problem with that?"


Because you never get to experience your true power within. You never actually break free and stand alone with your beliefs.

TC, you are speaking with people who have recovered from serious drug and alcohol addictions through programs, God, AA, NA ect....so we get it.
I personally spent almost 20 years in AA/NA and left because of the dependency promoted by their philosophy.
So long as one accepts they will always be a drug addict, felon, alcoholic ect...we will never get better.
We do get better when we decide we want a better life. We make these decisions.
Even when talking of God's powers, you make a decision to accept them.
Title: .
Post by: cum guzzler on December 11, 2011, 12:09:55 PM
.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: Xelebes on December 11, 2011, 01:05:02 PM
Quote from: "TC_Saved_Me"
Quote from: "none-ya"
[attachment=0:21c8chim]SIN.jpg[/attachment:21c8chim]

Hahaha!  Not quite that extreme, but there is definitely alot of discipline in the more successful programs!

Care to detail?
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: none-ya on December 11, 2011, 01:44:20 PM
Quote
TC_Saved_Me wrote;
Even if it's true what you say that I traded one addiction for another, which it's not - but if it is - what's the problem with that?


You've traded one of personal destruction,for one that has oppressed the masses,started wars,and raped young boys for thousands of years. That is a problem. Maybe not for you though. But I guess that's all that matters (to you).
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: N.O.S.O.B. on December 11, 2011, 06:01:10 PM
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: N.O.S.O.B. on December 11, 2011, 06:01:58 PM
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: N.O.S.O.B. on December 11, 2011, 06:03:30 PM
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: none-ya on December 12, 2011, 12:18:42 PM
Quote from: "none-ya"
Quote
TC_Saved_Me wrote;
Even if it's true what you say that I traded one addiction for another, which it's not - but if it is - what's the problem with that?


You've traded one of personal destruction,for one that has oppressed the masses,started wars,and raped young boys for thousands of years. That is a problem. Maybe not for you though. But I guess that's all that matters (to you).



If you're gonna' cover up my posts, at least have something to say.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on December 12, 2011, 04:17:41 PM
Quote from: "none-ya"
Quote
TC_Saved_Me wrote;
Even if it's true what you say that I traded one addiction for another, which it's not - but if it is - what's the problem with that?


You've traded one of personal destruction,for one that has oppressed the masses,started wars,and raped young boys for thousands of years. That is a problem. Maybe not for you though. But I guess that's all that matters (to you).

Look, I'm not ignorant to the fact that alot of cruel and unsavory things have been done in the name - and for the sake of - organized religion.  It's just terrible.  And if there is abusive things occurring in one of the Teen Challenge centers (or any treatment center), than something should definatly be done about that.  Justice should be served.  I certainly won't debate that.

I have a question for you though none-ya, regarding the oppressed masses, wars, and raped young boys:  Can you find anything in the New Testament that these self-proclaimed religious folks could have used to support the things they were doing?  

I'm cool with having a problem with organized religion, as long as one does not allow that to make stereotypes about all organized religion.  There is still some good out there.  And having a problem with organized religion is also cool with me, as long as the person with the problem does not let human history define Christianity - but instead let the Bible define what Christianity is.  Do not let the foolishness of Christians deter you from the true Glory of God.

Take me for example.  If you wanted to judge Jesus Christ and the entire Christian faith based on my personal character, that would do my God some serious injustice because I am far from a perfect man...

Just the same, it is not fair to judge every faith-based drug or alcoholic treatment center based on some foolishness of a couple bad seeds.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on December 12, 2011, 04:20:29 PM
Quote from: "cmack"
Quote from: "TC_Saved_Me"
Thank you Very much.  It's very refreshing to get an open-minded and respectful response from someone on here.

I just cannot understand how people think they can argue with someone's personal experience.  "No!  That's not what you experienced!  This is what you experienced!"   :beat:  It's hilarious!   :seg:

Some people were so traumatized and harmed by their program experience that they are unwilling or unable to accept that some others received any benefit at all. I am opposed to any kind of forced or coercive treatment. I think that many who run programs are in it just for the money and they lack the skills, knowledge, or heart to truly serve the individual needs of those placed in their care. I also realize that some people's pre-program life had become so bad and desperate that they were/are willing to overlook the faults and shortcomings of programs and cling to any tiny morsels of help they can find.

You have to realize that there are people on this forum who've lost years of their lives in programs who had done nothing to deserve being removed from their homes.

For a different perspective read this: http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic. ... 96#p398796 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=36821&p=398796#p398796)

Here's a brief excerpt:
Quote
The well hidden secrets The Seed used were in reality fear, intimidation, brainwashing, rape, violence, imprisonment, confinement, ratting on peers for reward, and kidnapping. This was the daily life of anyone unfortunate to have been forced into Barker’s web of deceit.

Unfortunately, the author of this article’s mother was one of the parents that attended a Seed parent indoctrination. “My mother had done no research, or investigation into what the program was really all about. Parents that attended these meetings were given license plates to put on their cars to show their support for a program they actually knew nothing about. They were also expected to turn over their wallets. Those that couldn’t afford to pay large “donations” spent their time making hundreds of peanut butter sandwiches, and gallons of Kool Aid, which was the program’s main source of nutrition.”

“I was fourteen-years-old and oddly my mother volunteered to give me a ride to the beach so I could go surfing. This would be the first, and only time my mother ever offered me a ride to the beach. Instead of going to the beach, I was taken to an old abandoned blimp hangar that The Seed now called its home. This was to be an initial stop under the pretenses of paying a visit to my sisters, who had disappeared only a few days earlier. My mother drove into a well guarded gate and stopped as the barricades were removed. The guards waved my mothers car into the compound. These “guards” didn’t look like your typical security guard, they looked instead like low-level body building thugs. Once inside the gate, I was informed that I would not be going anywhere. That night would begin my indoctrination were I would spend twelve hours a day confined to a single chair, and then turned over to a complete stranger where I would spend the nights intentionally being deprived of sleep. Welcome to The Seed.”

“During the entire year I was forced to remain at The Seed, I wasn’t allowed to attend school, or to socialize with any of my friends. If one did so, they did it at their own peril, as this meant starting the entire program over from day one.”

“Earlier that same week my thirteen year old sister was removed from her junior high class by complete strangers, and dragged to a awaiting car where she would be rolled up in an old rug, thrown into the trunk, and ushered off to what would become a nightmare that stole a full year from her life. My older sister, who was sixteen at the time, had also been duped into the program.”

Having never used drugs or alcohol — a popular kid that loved to surf, play sports, run track, play music, and bike ride to the beach was suddenly forced to spend full days, day after day, after day listening to “druggies” tell horror stories of how drugs had turned them into sex slaves to obtain the cash they needed to get their next high. “My father who had no idea what was happening to his kids, was out of town in the northeast, and to make matters worse my parents were in the throws of a nasty divorce.”...

----------
Unlike most when I was incarcerated/imprisoned at The Seed, I refused to conform. I never participated in any of the mandatory “rap sessions,” instead I remained silent and oppositional. If they sat facing North, I sat facing South. If they stood up, I sat down. When they put their arms around each other singing stupid songs in praise of Barker, I would push their arms off of me. When they shouted “I love you, Jack.” I shook my head in disgust. When they kicked me and yelled at me, I refused to show any signs of fear. And to think I was merely fourteen years old at the time. I spent countless hours watching spiders make webs up in the rafters.

After about six months of being in that mess, The Seed staff decided to send me to a psychiatrist to find out how they could “reach” me. After being kicked, beaten, starved, deprived of sleep, and screamed at for months they couldn’t figure it out? Really? They were never going to “reach” me.

Upon entering the psychiatrist’s office I told him, “Lay down (on his sofa) and tell me your problems.” This surprised him; he asked me why I didn’t like The Seed. I said, “They force me to lie, and say I used drugs when I hadn’t. They told me if I don’t admit to using drugs, I’d never be allowed to go home or school again.” I told the “doctor, “I wanted to go to school, and I wanted to go surfing, but they wouldn’t let me.” I left the appointment with a letter from the doctor giving me “life-long” permission to surf. Wasn’t that very nice of him?

When it was someone’s birthday, they’d force us to stand, hold hands and sing happy birthday. On my fifteenth birthday, they sang, “Hit the road Jack and don’t you come back no more, no more. Hit the road Jack and don’t you come back no more.” I stood up and defiantly proclaimed that I had had enough and I was never going to come back ever again. Ever again! They had a good laugh about that, but, I had decided that I was never going back to that place and I didn’t. That was the best birthday gift I ever received and I gave it to myself. In reality, my mother probably couldn’t afford the long drives to south Miami, and then Fort Lauderdale, and probably lost interest. I’m sure the staff was equally as tired of a kid that they knew was not going to conform. After all, what did I have to lose as I was already not allowed to attend school for an entire year.

I stayed true to my word, and like nearly ever child that left The Seed voluntarily or throught the “graduation” process, never returned. Like most kids that left The Seed, I never returned to live with his family either.

I will never stop hating that pedophile known as Art Barker, and his demonic staff of criminals who thrived on causing pain and anguish to countless children. To this day, I can still see several of those constantly crying faces, and the stream of tears that often flowed down their faces, out of sheer helplessness....

---------

If Dante’s Inferno became a reality, no doubt Barker would face the gallows one day, a firing squad, lethal injection, and the electric chair in following succession. In a more humane hell, Barker deserves to be beaten to death, again and again by the scores of children that he physically, psychologically and emotionally raped in that experiment that had gone bad. But, then again… Who am I to judge? It’s not like after 35+ years that my time spent in that grotesque experiment had any long lasting and lingering affect on me. Right?



What is "The Seed?"
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on December 12, 2011, 04:27:25 PM
Quote from: "Xelebes"
Quote from: "TC_Saved_Me"
Quote from: "none-ya"
[attachment=0:30vye9ze]SIN.jpg[/attachment:30vye9ze]

Hahaha!  Not quite that extreme, but there is definitely alot of discipline in the more successful programs!

Care to detail?

I've been pretty transparent about kind of discipline that I endured when I was with Teen Challenge.  There was some very organized research conducted a while back to see just how successful Teen Challenge is.

Here's a pretty good link for information about the study.  It debunks some of Teen Challenge's claims about the 86% success rate, but a 70% success rate is still far superior to the average secular rehab (1-15%)

http://http://www.acadc.org/page/page/2495014.htm
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: Samara on December 12, 2011, 04:52:52 PM
Is it a longitudinal study? Because lots of programees assert undying devotion until the brainwashing wears off.

And, my thing is, whether or not someone is sober doesn't justify extreme coercive, psychologically abusive programs that depend on chronic, trenchant degradation to bring about "change."  I also could not condone any program that doesn't recognize the emotional health of personal boundaries.  Sharing should be safe and voluntary.  Also, I do not believe you build someone by tearing them down first. That is BS. I've seen too many babies thrown out with the bathwater.  Last, I would not want my mental health tied into adherence to theocratic programming.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: cmack on December 12, 2011, 05:03:13 PM
Quote from: "TC_Saved_Me"

What is "The Seed?"

http://www.thesunmagazine.org/issues/373/the_seed (http://www.thesunmagazine.org/issues/373/the_seed)

http://www.insidersview.info/theseed.htm (http://www.insidersview.info/theseed.htm)

Quote
http://www.thesunmagazine.org/issues/373/the_seed (http://www.thesunmagazine.org/issues/373/the_seed)

http://www.insidersview.info/theseed.htm (http://www.insidersview.info/theseed.htm)

The Seed was a controversial youth drug-rehabilitation program that flourished in south Florida when I was a teen in the early 1970s. Founded by former comedian and recovering alcoholic Art Barker, it was modeled after adult treatment programs and administered by unlicensed staff. The Seed utilized coercive techniques such as aggressive confrontation, intimidation, verbal abuse, sleep deprivation, and restricted access to the bathroom to tear down a teen’s sense of self and replace it with the ready-made identity of a “Seedling.”

The Seed was highly publicized, and the attention eventually proved destructive to the program. In 1974 the U.S. Senate published a study that accused the Seed of using methods similar to North Korean communist brainwashing techniques. The bad press, in conjunction with legal pressure from the National Institute on Drug Abuse and the drying up of federal funds, forced the Seed to scale back its operations dramatically. By the 1980s it had shrunk to a fraction of its former size and was officially admitting only voluntary clients. The Seed endured in this diminished capacity until it finally closed in 2001.

Today hundreds of similar programs are in operation throughout the United States and abroad. Some are even run by former Seed staffers. By most accounts, these programs are much harsher than the Seed.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on December 13, 2011, 09:53:57 AM
Quote from: "Samara"
Is it a longitudinal study? Because lots of programees assert undying devotion until the brainwashing wears off.

And, my thing is, whether or not someone is sober doesn't justify extreme coercive, psychologically abusive programs that depend on chronic, trenchant degradation to bring about "change."  I also could not condone any program that doesn't recognize the emotional health of personal boundaries.  Sharing should be safe and voluntary.  Also, I do not believe you build someone by tearing them down first. That is BS. I've seen too many babies thrown out with the bathwater.  Last, I would not want my mental health tied into adherence to theocratic programming.

The study was done on 186 participants.  Six variables were used during the study:
1)  what proportion of the program participants were still drug free (urinalysis testing was conducted for all 186 participants.
2)  no legal involvements
3)  employed or pursuing education
4)  a part of a family unit
5)  participating in church activities
6)  physical and mental health.
The National Opinion Research Center of the University of Chicago developed the survey instrument, located survey participants, conducted the personal interviews, and obtained a urine sample to test for drugs. The National Medical Services, Inc., of Philadelphia, PA, conducted the drug screening detection for this population.
This study was conducted 7 years after the subject's involvment with Teen Challenge (I'm not sure how long it takes for "brainwashing" to wear off).  

I can say that I personally graduated from Teen Challenge in 2007, and have had quite the journey since I left the program.  From living/ working with my father to get back on my feet.  To living in a place, by myself, where I was living off of Raman Noodles because I was so broke.  6 years later, I have a wife and two daughters, am active in my church, and have a great job working for the Army!

I agree with you that a person's sobriety "doesn't justify extreme coercive, psychologically abusive programs that depend on chronic, trenchant degradation to bring about 'change.'"  No arguments there.  
"I also could not condone any program that doesn't recognize the emotional health of personal boundaries.  Sharing should be safe and voluntary."  I agree with you here also.  No arguments.

I really only tend to disagree with this part: "I do not believe you build someone by tearing them down first."  Just speaking from my own personal experience, I would say that this is exactly what I needed - though Teen Challenge does not do this on an emotional or physical level (moreso on a spiritual level).  I came into this program thinking that I was hot stuff!  I could turn a broke DVD into 50 bucks if you gave me a few hours!  The rules that I was expected to follow in Teen Challenge were total crap, and I was above them!  It eventually broke me down - on a spiritual level - and humbled me to the point where I finally began to acknowledge that I needed help for my addictions.  This was what eventually led me to change.

Let me ask you a question... Do you think that military bootcamp is abusive?  Emotionally, physically, or spiritually?  Do you think that our soldiers leave their training "Brainwashed?"

I'm asking this for a reason.  I am former military, and went through Teen Challenge with several guys who used to be enlisted, and it seemed like the guys who were ex-military had an easier time adjusting to the rules and the structure of Teen Challenge.  We may have fought the system at first, but we oftentimes were a little quicker to turn that corner and start doing what was required of us in this program.  Once you start to go with the curriculum, and follow the rules, the program is actually a walk in the park!

I'm trying to figure out why you talked about someone's mental health being tied into the adherence to theocratic programming..??  I guess I'd have to agree with you there also.  There are mental (often times neuro) problems, then there are spiritual problems.  Theology and mental health are seperate things, and should stay as such.  No arguments here.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on December 13, 2011, 10:08:49 AM
Quote from: "cmack"
Quote from: "TC_Saved_Me"

What is "The Seed?"

http://www.thesunmagazine.org/issues/373/the_seed (http://www.thesunmagazine.org/issues/373/the_seed)

http://www.insidersview.info/theseed.htm (http://www.insidersview.info/theseed.htm)

Quote
http://www.thesunmagazine.org/issues/373/the_seed (http://www.thesunmagazine.org/issues/373/the_seed)

http://www.insidersview.info/theseed.htm (http://www.insidersview.info/theseed.htm)

The Seed was a controversial youth drug-rehabilitation program that flourished in south Florida when I was a teen in the early 1970s. Founded by former comedian and recovering alcoholic Art Barker, it was modeled after adult treatment programs and administered by unlicensed staff. The Seed utilized coercive techniques such as aggressive confrontation, intimidation, verbal abuse, sleep deprivation, and restricted access to the bathroom to tear down a teen’s sense of self and replace it with the ready-made identity of a “Seedling.”

The Seed was highly publicized, and the attention eventually proved destructive to the program. In 1974 the U.S. Senate published a study that accused the Seed of using methods similar to North Korean communist brainwashing techniques. The bad press, in conjunction with legal pressure from the National Institute on Drug Abuse and the drying up of federal funds, forced the Seed to scale back its operations dramatically. By the 1980s it had shrunk to a fraction of its former size and was officially admitting only voluntary clients. The Seed endured in this diminished capacity until it finally closed in 2001.

Today hundreds of similar programs are in operation throughout the United States and abroad. Some are even run by former Seed staffers. By most accounts, these programs are much harsher than the Seed.

Oh my goodness!  That sounds like something out of a movie!  Well, I can certainly see how a program like this would really mess somebody up!  That's a horrible story, and any place like this should be shut down, and the leadership should be tried for child abuse!

I'm starting to wonder if there is some other program out there that's called Teen Challenge that I'm not aware of because this is NOTHING like the adult program that changed my life!  This "Seed" program sounds completely reprehensible!   Please, please, please believe that I'm not on here to put anybody down who has gone through something like this!  I absolutely feel for you if that is the case, and I am sorry if you feel like I've justified that actions of a program like that!

My intention was simply to shine some light on the good programs that are out there.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: Ursus on December 13, 2011, 11:56:31 AM
Quote from: "TC_Saved_Me"
Quote from: "Samara"
Is it a longitudinal study? Because lots of programees assert undying devotion until the brainwashing wears off.

And, my thing is, whether or not someone is sober doesn't justify extreme coercive, psychologically abusive programs that depend on chronic, trenchant degradation to bring about "change."  I also could not condone any program that doesn't recognize the emotional health of personal boundaries.  Sharing should be safe and voluntary.  Also, I do not believe you build someone by tearing them down first. That is BS. I've seen too many babies thrown out with the bathwater.  Last, I would not want my mental health tied into adherence to theocratic programming.
The study was done on 186 participants.  Six variables were used during the study:
1)  what proportion of the program participants were still drug free (urinalysis testing was conducted for all 186 participants.
2)  no legal involvements
3)  employed or pursuing education
4)  a part of a family unit
5)  participating in church activities
6)  physical and mental health.
The National Opinion Research Center of the University of Chicago developed the survey instrument, located survey participants, conducted the personal interviews, and obtained a urine sample to test for drugs. The National Medical Services, Inc., of Philadelphia, PA, conducted the drug screening detection for this population.
This study was conducted 7 years after the subject's involvment with Teen Challenge (I'm not sure how long it takes for "brainwashing" to wear off).  

I can say that I personally graduated from Teen Challenge in 2007, and have had quite the journey since I left the program.  From living/ working with my father to get back on my feet.  To living in a place, by myself, where I was living off of Raman Noodles because I was so broke.  6 years later, I have a wife and two daughters, am active in my church, and have a great job working for the Army!

I agree with you that a person's sobriety "doesn't justify extreme coercive, psychologically abusive programs that depend on chronic, trenchant degradation to bring about 'change.'"  No arguments there.  
"I also could not condone any program that doesn't recognize the emotional health of personal boundaries.  Sharing should be safe and voluntary."  I agree with you here also.  No arguments.

I really only tend to disagree with this part: "I do not believe you build someone by tearing them down first."  Just speaking from my own personal experience, I would say that this is exactly what I needed - though Teen Challenge does not do this on an emotional or physical level (moreso on a spiritual level).  I came into this program thinking that I was hot stuff!  I could turn a broke DVD into 50 bucks if you gave me a few hours!  The rules that I was expected to follow in Teen Challenge were total crap, and I was above them!  It eventually broke me down - on a spiritual level - and humbled me to the point where I finally began to acknowledge that I needed help for my addictions.  This was what eventually led me to change.

Let me ask you a question... Do you think that military bootcamp is abusive?  Emotionally, physically, or spiritually?  Do you think that our soldiers leave their training "Brainwashed?"

I'm asking this for a reason.  I am former military, and went through Teen Challenge with several guys who used to be enlisted, and it seemed like the guys who were ex-military had an easier time adjusting to the rules and the structure of Teen Challenge.  We may have fought the system at first, but we oftentimes were a little quicker to turn that corner and start doing what was required of us in this program.  Once you start to go with the curriculum, and follow the rules, the program is actually a walk in the park!


I'm trying to figure out why you talked about someone's mental health being tied into the adherence to theocratic programming..??  I guess I'd have to agree with you there also.  There are mental (often times neuro) problems, then there are spiritual problems.  Theology and mental health are seperate things, and should stay as such.  No arguments here.
Sounds to me like y'all were pre-programmed, bro! There are more than a few similarities between military programming and the indoctrination and behavior modification of folks who are struggling with addiction issues or whose behavior is deemed unacceptable by the status quo... :D
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: none-ya on December 13, 2011, 12:35:25 PM
.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: cmack on December 13, 2011, 12:39:19 PM
Quote from: "TC_Saved_Me"
Quote from: "Samara"
Is it a longitudinal study? Because lots of programees assert undying devotion until the brainwashing wears off.

And, my thing is, whether or not someone is sober doesn't justify extreme coercive, psychologically abusive programs that depend on chronic, trenchant degradation to bring about "change."  I also could not condone any program that doesn't recognize the emotional health of personal boundaries.  Sharing should be safe and voluntary.  Also, I do not believe you build someone by tearing them down first. That is BS. I've seen too many babies thrown out with the bathwater.  Last, I would not want my mental health tied into adherence to theocratic programming.

The study was done on 186 participants.  Six variables were used during the study:
1)  what proportion of the program participants were still drug free (urinalysis testing was conducted for all 186 participants.
2)  no legal involvements
3)  employed or pursuing education
4)  a part of a family unit
5)  participating in church activities
6)  physical and mental health.
The National Opinion Research Center of the University of Chicago developed the survey instrument, located survey participants, conducted the personal interviews, and obtained a urine sample to test for drugs. The National Medical Services, Inc., of Philadelphia, PA, conducted the drug screening detection for this population.
This study was conducted 7 years after the subject's involvment with Teen Challenge (I'm not sure how long it takes for "brainwashing" to wear off).  

I can say that I personally graduated from Teen Challenge in 2007, and have had quite the journey since I left the program.  From living/ working with my father to get back on my feet.  To living in a place, by myself, where I was living off of Raman Noodles because I was so broke.  6 years later, I have a wife and two daughters, am active in my church, and have a great job working for the Army!

I agree with you that a person's sobriety "doesn't justify extreme coercive, psychologically abusive programs that depend on chronic, trenchant degradation to bring about 'change.'"  No arguments there.  
"I also could not condone any program that doesn't recognize the emotional health of personal boundaries.  Sharing should be safe and voluntary."  I agree with you here also.  No arguments.

I really only tend to disagree with this part: "I do not believe you build someone by tearing them down first."  Just speaking from my own personal experience, I would say that this is exactly what I needed - though Teen Challenge does not do this on an emotional or physical level (moreso on a spiritual level).  I came into this program thinking that I was hot stuff!  I could turn a broke DVD into 50 bucks if you gave me a few hours!  The rules that I was expected to follow in Teen Challenge were total crap, and I was above them!  It eventually broke me down - on a spiritual level - and humbled me to the point where I finally began to acknowledge that I needed help for my addictions.  This was what eventually led me to change.

Let me ask you a question... Do you think that military bootcamp is abusive?  Emotionally, physically, or spiritually?  Do you think that our soldiers leave their training "Brainwashed?"

I'm asking this for a reason.  I am former military, and went through Teen Challenge with several guys who used to be enlisted, and it seemed like the guys who were ex-military had an easier time adjusting to the rules and the structure of Teen Challenge.  We may have fought the system at first, but we oftentimes were a little quicker to turn that corner and start doing what was required of us in this program.  Once you start to go with the curriculum, and follow the rules, the program is actually a walk in the park!

I'm trying to figure out why you talked about someone's mental health being tied into the adherence to theocratic programming..??  I guess I'd have to agree with you there also.  There are mental (often times neuro) problems, then there are spiritual problems.  Theology and mental health are seperate things, and should stay as such.  No arguments here.

Military indoctrination does not rise to the level of being cultic. There are certainly elements of coercive persuasion/thought reform which take place, especially in boot camp. And some segments of the military engage in this more than others, for instance Ranger School. But I don't think most military training rises to the level of brainwashing.

How the United States Marine Corps Differs from Cults
http://www.rickross.com/reference/brain ... hing2.html (http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing2.html)

The Process of Brainwashing, Psychological Coercion, and Thought Reform
http://www.rickross.com/reference/cults ... idst2.html (http://www.rickross.com/reference/cults_in_our_midst/cults_in_our_midst2.html)

Coercive Persuasion and Attitude Change
http://www.rickross.com/reference/brain ... hing8.html (http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing8.html)

Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism
http://www.rickross.com/reference/brain ... ing19.html (http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing19.html)
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: cmack on December 13, 2011, 12:53:13 PM
Quote from: "TC_Saved_Me"
Quote from: "cmack"
Quote from: "TC_Saved_Me"

What is "The Seed?"

http://www.thesunmagazine.org/issues/373/the_seed (http://www.thesunmagazine.org/issues/373/the_seed)

http://www.insidersview.info/theseed.htm (http://www.insidersview.info/theseed.htm)

Quote
http://www.thesunmagazine.org/issues/373/the_seed (http://www.thesunmagazine.org/issues/373/the_seed)

http://www.insidersview.info/theseed.htm (http://www.insidersview.info/theseed.htm)

The Seed was a controversial youth drug-rehabilitation program that flourished in south Florida when I was a teen in the early 1970s. Founded by former comedian and recovering alcoholic Art Barker, it was modeled after adult treatment programs and administered by unlicensed staff. The Seed utilized coercive techniques such as aggressive confrontation, intimidation, verbal abuse, sleep deprivation, and restricted access to the bathroom to tear down a teen’s sense of self and replace it with the ready-made identity of a “Seedling.”

The Seed was highly publicized, and the attention eventually proved destructive to the program. In 1974 the U.S. Senate published a study that accused the Seed of using methods similar to North Korean communist brainwashing techniques. The bad press, in conjunction with legal pressure from the National Institute on Drug Abuse and the drying up of federal funds, forced the Seed to scale back its operations dramatically. By the 1980s it had shrunk to a fraction of its former size and was officially admitting only voluntary clients. The Seed endured in this diminished capacity until it finally closed in 2001.

Today hundreds of similar programs are in operation throughout the United States and abroad. Some are even run by former Seed staffers. By most accounts, these programs are much harsher than the Seed.

Oh my goodness!  That sounds like something out of a movie!  Well, I can certainly see how a program like this would really mess somebody up!  That's a horrible story, and any place like this should be shut down, and the leadership should be tried for child abuse!

I'm starting to wonder if there is some other program out there that's called Teen Challenge that I'm not aware of because this is NOTHING like the adult program that changed my life!  This "Seed" program sounds completely reprehensible!   Please, please, please believe that I'm not on here to put anybody down who has gone through something like this!  I absolutely feel for you if that is the case, and I am sorry if you feel like I've justified that actions of a program like that!

My intention was simply to shine some light on the good programs that are out there.

The story I linked to above is not my story.

I've read all of your posts with much interest. I sincerely appreciate you posting on fornits. I know that you have received some heat here, and now I'm sure you can understand how some can come to view all programs and program supporters with contempt.

I don't think TC is among the more abusive programs. I think people have a fairly good idea of what they're getting into when they enter, and adult programs by their very nature are different than programs for minors. I have read of accounts of teen TC centers that certainly seemed more abusive than anything you've described.

I hope you stay involved here on fornits and learn more about the industry in general. I believe you when you say that TC helped you and that you found redemption through faith. I only hope you're not too quick to suggest a similar program for your neighbor's 14 year old when he's caught smoking pot or drinking a beer.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on December 13, 2011, 01:39:55 PM
Quote from: "cmack"
I hope you stay involved here on fornits and learn more about the industry in general. I believe you when you say that TC helped you and that you found redemption through faith. I only hope you're not too quick to suggest a similar program for your neighbor's 14 year old when he's caught smoking pot or drinking a beer.

Admittedly, I have been.  But the more that I've been reading, the more skeptic I've become, and will certainly urge anyone thinking of joining a program like this to do some serious research before making a decision.

I know that one of the TC Induction Centers that I was in had an outreach program for teenagers.  We weren't involved in the program, as students, but I did see our staff members interacting with the program.  I don't think this program was quite like what's being described in here either.

Thanks for being mature about this.  I have honestly gotten some good things out of these discussions - though some of the comments I've had to disregard    ;)

Teen Challenge, to my knowledge does not require staff members and counselors to get any kind of certification or professional training before getting this kind of responsibility.  I used to think this was what seperated them, and made them a stronger program (drug addicts can relate with former drug addicts and are more willing to open up to people who have been through what they are going through instead of some counselor who just got some social services degree).

But now I truely think that all of these staff members should be required to meet certain criteria before playing the role of a counselor in a Teen Challenge or any other drug rehab.  They should be properly trained and educated.  I still think that I would have opened up alot less to my counselors had they not dealt with similar struggles (most of them have criminal records like myself), so I think any regulations about that sort of thing should be overlooked - unless of course someone is a convicted sex offender or even someone convicted of a physical assualt charge of any kind (that could help to prevent the kind of abusive behavior that might take place at these sort of centers).
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: none-ya on December 13, 2011, 01:42:15 PM
Quote from: "none-ya"
TC_Saved_Me wrote;
Do you think that military bootcamp is abusive?


Why not ask that question to the families of the kids who died there.


Quote
what is the seed?


If you've never heard of the seed that's understandable.It was closed down a along time ago. But how about straight inc.?
How about WWASP? And how about everybody's favorite (at least here),Elan? Sorry folks if I left out your program,but you get the point. But please don't take my word for this.You need to do some research.You'll see how all these programs all decended from cold war interogation technics by the military, to Synanon, to the seed and then everywhere else.



Quote
I came into this program thinking that I was hot stuff!



I don't think much has changed on that front.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: psy on December 13, 2011, 01:44:04 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
There are more than a few similarities between military programming and the indoctrination and behavior modification of folks who are struggling with addiction issues or whose behavior is deemed unacceptable by the status quo... :D
Very true, but those who enter the military usually know full well what they're getting into.  There is informed consent. They know the're gonna get made into a new person.  That's the whole reason many go.  They don't like the way they are and want some discipline, even if it comes at the cost of some individuality.  Even those who don't go into the military for this reason know it to be a side effect.  Few have any choice when they enter a program and even fewer have full knowledge of how they will be changed. They know there will be an effort to change them, just not how, and because they don't know how, they're not able to resist effectively.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on December 13, 2011, 01:51:03 PM
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "Ursus"
There are more than a few similarities between military programming and the indoctrination and behavior modification of folks who are struggling with addiction issues or whose behavior is deemed unacceptable by the status quo... :D
Very true, but those who enter the military usually know full well what they're getting into.  There is informed consent. They know the're gonna get made into a new person.  That's the whole reason many go.  They don't like the way they are and want some discipline, even if it comes at the cost of some individuality.  Even those who don't go into the military for this reason know it to be a side effect.  Few have any choice when they enter a program and even fewer have full knowledge of how they will be changed. They know there will be an effort to change them, just not how, and because they don't know how, they're not able to resist effectively.

That's true.  I didn't quite expect such a strict and structured environment when I went into Teen Challenge.  But doesn't the fact that I could leave the program at any time - without any repurcussions - kind of absorb that a little bit?
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on December 13, 2011, 01:53:33 PM
Quote from: "none-ya"
Quote from: "none-ya"
TC_Saved_Me wrote;
Do you think that military bootcamp is abusive?


Why not ask that question to the families of the kids who died there.


Quote
what is the seed?


If you've never heard of the seed that's understandable.It was closed down a along time ago. But how about straight inc.?
How about WWASP? And how about everybody's favorite (at least here),Elan? Sorry folks if I left out your program,but you get the point. But please don't take my word for this.You need to do some research.You'll see how all these programs all decended from cold war interogation technics by the military, to Synanon, to the seed and then everywhere else.



Quote
I came into this program thinking that I was hot stuff!



I don't think much has changed on that front.

touche'   ::poke::
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: psy on December 13, 2011, 02:04:18 PM
Quote from: "TC_Saved_Me"
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "Ursus"
There are more than a few similarities between military programming and the indoctrination and behavior modification of folks who are struggling with addiction issues or whose behavior is deemed unacceptable by the status quo... :D
Very true, but those who enter the military usually know full well what they're getting into.  There is informed consent. They know the're gonna get made into a new person.  That's the whole reason many go.  They don't like the way they are and want some discipline, even if it comes at the cost of some individuality.  Even those who don't go into the military for this reason know it to be a side effect.  Few have any choice when they enter a program and even fewer have full knowledge of how they will be changed. They know there will be an effort to change them, just not how, and because they don't know how, they're not able to resist effectively.

That's true.  I didn't quite expect such a strict and structured environment when I went into Teen Challenge.  But doesn't the fact that I could leave the program at any time - without any repurcussions - kind of absorb that a little bit?
True, it's better than most if you can truly do that without any repercussions, but some groups have very manipulative ways of keeping people in the group without brute force.  The simplest way is usually to convince the person that they're not ready to leave, and if they leave without the group's approval, there is a high risk they'll die / end up in jail / end up insane / go to hell / cause the apocalypse / whatever.  That's hardly the only way either.  Why is it you think that so many people stay in destructive cults and cult-like groups even when they're "technically" able to walk out the door? I'm not saying that's the case with you, but as you've pointed out, Teen Challenge was not as you expected.  I'd recommend picking up a book like Margaret Singer's "Cults in Our Midst" and coming to your own determination as to whether or not it would fit the criteria outlined.  Also, it's my understanding Teen Challenge is not totally open about the fact that conversion to Christianity is an absolute requirement for graduation.  Is that still accurate?
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on December 13, 2011, 03:01:53 PM
Quote
but some groups have very manipulative ways of keeping people in the group without brute force.

I actually left one of the Teen Challenge induction centers (Philadelphia TC).  Got into an argument with the staff, and just walked out!  You have to sign a release form when you enter the program which states that if you leave the program, you have to go through a 90 day waiting period to get back into the program, so my mom forked up the airfare for me to go to San Diego induction (there's no induction fee in Southern California TC).  

The San Diego TC had me doing store-front fundraising one day - about 3 months into the program - and I used some of the money from the can to call my sister on a pay phone to have her bring me a cup of Starbucks (this is against the rules for a couple of reasons).  When the staff found out what I did, I was going to be put on restriction (not allowed to communicate with other students for two weeks and have to do extra chores and stuff).  I was so ticked off that I wanted to leave the San Diego induction center!

When I told the staff that I wanted to leave, they offerred to call my older sister to have her pick me up.  I'm sitting in the main lobby of TC, and my sister comes rolling into the center with her Senior Chief (Navy NCO)!!!  He takes me to the side, and threatens to beat my --- if I left the program because it would break my sister's heart!  That's about the only cohersion I got to stay in the program - was from my sister's Senior Chief!  

Quote
Also, it's my understanding Teen Challenge is not totally open about the fact that conversion to Christianity is an absolute requirement for graduation.  Is that still accurate?

That's not true.  I've never even heard of that before.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: none-ya on December 13, 2011, 06:04:58 PM
You can check out anytime you like but you can never leave
Sorry about the synanon reference.....
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: cmack on December 13, 2011, 06:07:35 PM
Quote from: "TC_Saved_Me"
Quote from: "cmack"
I hope you stay involved here on fornits and learn more about the industry in general. I believe you when you say that TC helped you and that you found redemption through faith. I only hope you're not too quick to suggest a similar program for your neighbor's 14 year old when he's caught smoking pot or drinking a beer.

Admittedly, I have been.  But the more that I've been reading, the more skeptic I've become, and will certainly urge anyone thinking of joining a program like this to do some serious research before making a decision.

I glad to hear that you are rethinking referring teens to programs. As you said in one of your earlier posts; people need to hit rock bottom before they can be helped. For the most part, teens sent to these programs aren't addicts. They haven't used long enough and they haven't had the series of negative life altering events that led you to want and seek help. Many young people are forced into treatment by parents who are fearful or just pissed-off.

Look at these links and keep them for future reference:

http://www.peele.net/lib/panic.html (http://www.peele.net/lib/panic.html)

http://mensnewsdaily.com/2010/08/08/whe ... mokes-pot/ (http://mensnewsdaily.com/2010/08/08/when-your-kid-smokes-pot/)

Quote
I know that one of the TC Induction Centers that I was in had an outreach program for teenagers.  We weren't involved in the program, as students, but I did see our staff members interacting with the program.  I don't think this program was quite like what's being described in here either.

Thanks for being mature about this.  I have honestly gotten some good things out of these discussions - though some of the comments I've had to disregard    ;)

Teen Challenge, to my knowledge does not require staff members and counselors to get any kind of certification or professional training before getting this kind of responsibility.  I used to think this was what seperated them, and made them a stronger program (drug addicts can relate with former drug addicts and are more willing to open up to people who have been through what they are going through instead of some counselor who just got some social services degree).

But now I truely think that all of these staff members should be required to meet certain criteria before playing the role of a counselor in a Teen Challenge or any other drug rehab.  They should be properly trained and educated.  I still think that I would have opened up alot less to my counselors had they not dealt with similar struggles (most of them have criminal records like myself), so I think any regulations about that sort of thing should be overlooked - unless of course someone is a convicted sex offender or even someone convicted of a physical assualt charge of any kind (that could help to prevent the kind of abusive behavior that might take place at these sort of centers).

Many programs use untrained staff even if they also have trained clinicians on staff. The untrained staff are cheaper and turnover tends to be high. Due to their lack of adequate training, overwork, under staffing, difficult working conditions, and the vagaries of human nature the door to abusive behavior is opened. Not all staff members are abusive, but the conditions make it likely that some will be.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: none-ya on December 13, 2011, 06:59:59 PM
Quote
cmack wrote
I glad to hear that you are rethinking referring teens to programs.


That's good, Now let's work on not referring teens to church.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: cmack on December 13, 2011, 07:07:22 PM
Quote from: "none-ya"
Quote
cmack wrote
I glad to hear that you are rethinking referring teens to programs.


That's good, Now let's work on not referring teens to church.

 :)
Title: <-->
Post by: dr phil show on December 13, 2011, 08:24:05 PM
<-->
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: none-ya on December 13, 2011, 08:36:05 PM
Hey doc that's a great idea why don't you save me a spot sunday morning?
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: none-ya on December 13, 2011, 09:02:07 PM
I know this quaint little chapel near Dresden.[attachment=0:2rb6jnf0]nazi bishop 2.jpg[/attachment:2rb6jnf0]
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: Ursus on December 14, 2011, 06:55:42 PM
Quote from: "cmack"
As you said in one of your earlier posts; people need to hit rock bottom before they can be helped.
:eek: ...Do you really believe this?
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: cmack on December 14, 2011, 07:42:52 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "cmack"
As you said in one of your earlier posts; people need to hit rock bottom before they can be helped.
:eek: ...Do you really believe this?

NO, I was referencing something he had said in an earlier post. I didn't want to argue the issue with him.

This is what I said:
Quote
viewtopic.php?f=57&t=38310#p409415 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=38310#p409415)

Thanks for sharing your story, and congratulations on getting your life back on-track. You didn't say what your drug of choice was, but I'm assuming it was something more potent than marijuana. After three arrests in under a year it sounds like you were ready "desperate" to get clean and straighten your life out. I believe people change when they're ready to change. You found solace and redemption through faith. Others follow different paths to sobriety. But I don't think any program can be effective if the person isn't ready to change.

This is what he wrote in response:
Quote
viewtopic.php?f=57&t=38310#p409424 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=38310#p409424)

I agree with you about the "prerequisite" of change being that you have to hit "rock bottom" first. And I believe that "rock bottom" is very different for everybody. I personally would have never entered the program if I hadn't been court ordered. Like any rehab, Teen Challenge does not work for people who are not ready to change. I have personally seen alot of men enter the program who hadn't hit rock bottom, only to leave the program and start using again.

"Rock bottom" is AA language that I don't subscribe to, but I don't think arguing the issue with him would have been productive and it would have been a distraction to the main thrust of the dialogue.

But thanks for being vigilant and keeping me honest. :)
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: cmack on December 14, 2011, 08:56:14 PM
TC_Saved_Me, as I've said in earlier posts; I fully accept that TC was the vehicle through which you found Christ and were able to turn your life around. As you've learned here on fornits, many others have had bad experiences at various programs. I don't know anyone personally who has been through TC, but there are published accounts of people who aren't thrilled with their time there.

Without invalidating your own personal experience I urge you to continue your education regarding this industry and exercise restraint when referring others to TC or other programs.

Here are some links you might want to explore.

Thanks to reddit for this: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/5/4/ ... 954/504505 (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/5/4/164443/2223/954/504505)

Behind the Walls: The Teen Challenge You Won't See
http://www.teenchallengeexposed.com/index.html (http://www.teenchallengeexposed.com/index.html)
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on December 15, 2011, 09:29:55 AM
Quote from: "cmack"
Without invalidating your own personal experience I urge you to continue your education regarding this industry and exercise restraint when referring others to TC or other programs.

I wouldn't refer anyone to the TC program for minors after the things that I've read.  I think that needs to be investigated, and those centers should be held to a higher standard.  These are kids we're talking about.

Certainly though, anyone could benefit from the center that I went through (San Diego Induction - Riverside Training Center, Southern California).  Since I have first hand experience of how beneficial that center is, I would not hesitate to refer someone there.  I referred some of the TC people I know to this website to read around, and get there opinion about what's being said in these Discussion Boards, and their all convinced that these negative opinions are from people who either got kicked out of the program or left early on their own accord.  There's alot of people who can't stand the rules, and are not ready to admit that they have not made wise choices with their lives.  So they'll either keep getting high, and get kicked out of the program - or they'll leave the program for "greener pastures" (jail, other rehabs, back on the streets) - and they'll be bitter towards the program.

I know at least ten people who have left the program, and gone on to graduate from Bible College (or secular college in my case soon), to be leaders in the Youth Groups of their churches, husbands, fathers, etc.

Here's what one of the TC graduates said about these Discussion Boards:  "People who aren't willing to surrender fully and need a scapegoat... Nobody takes credit for their part of failure anymore" -  His words, not mine.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on December 15, 2011, 09:34:46 AM
Oh, and here's what my wife had to say,

"I've seen sites like that before. I don't care what anyone says, God used Teen Challenge to save my life." - her words, not mine.

I'm one of those Teen Challenge homers who married a chick that graduated the program!  :-)

She's a graduate of the Pennsylvania Teen Challenge (Philadelphia Induction Center - Rehrersburg Training Center, Pennsylvania).
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on December 15, 2011, 10:15:38 AM
http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQRcXtKeuMU&feature=relmfu
http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EH6lvqDv1DA&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: Samara on December 15, 2011, 12:48:49 PM
I didn't attend TC, but the quote from your friend asserting that people who reject the program are essentially losers is irrational, illogical, and moronic. What he is essentially positing is that the ONLY valid perspective is a positive one. It proves the point that dissent or critical thinking is undervalued.

I did not go to a program for drug use or delinquency. Many of my peers also did not.  And yet, there we were. Whether someone split, left, or graduated is inconsequential to the fact that the program practiced systemic, trenchant, and pervasive verbal and psychological abuse. If a kid were a drug addict, bipolar, or simply rebellious would not convince me that their stay at the program was therapeutic. In fact, the opposite. I don't feel this way because of rules or work details. That sh*t is petty and frankly, inconsequential to the fact that the program practiced systemic, trenchant, and pervasive verbal and psychological abuse.  

It is very tiresome to continue to explain to Program People that dissenters are not rule whiners. Do you think we would be talking about this over decades later if we simply hated a few rules? No. In fact, I could give a rip  what happened to me a long ass time ago.  I don't want today's kids to be placed in programs that practice, yes, again, systemic, trenchant, and pervasive verbal and psychological abuse.

I don't know much about Teen Challenge pro or con. However, it is true --based on my experience, research, and professional and academic expertise-- that I lean toward skepticism. Nice brochures and "Jesus Saves" slogans are not effective arbiters of therapeutic ethics.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on December 16, 2011, 10:28:45 AM
Quote
the quote from your friend asserting that people who reject the program are essentially losers is irrational, illogical, and moronic.

Although I cannot speak for him, I do not believe he was saying that people who reject the program are losers.  I believe, since he is a graduate and now a staff member at a Teen Challenge, he is speaking from experience.  His personal experience has been that alot of people reject the program because they do not want to follow the rules.  Alot of those people end up very bitter, and will look for reasons and occasions to bad mouth a program that has worked for thousands of people for over fifty years.  

I understand where he is coming from.  I've seen alot of people badmouthing the same center that I went through - knowing that the center is filled with staff members who show the students alot of love - but they also exercise alot of discipline.  Wouldn't you defend something you knew was good.  Something you were passionate about?  Something that changed your life??

Quote
I don't want today's kids to be placed in programs that practice, yes, again, systemic, trenchant, and pervasive verbal and psychological abuse.

Good.  That makes two of us.

Dissention advances civilization.  Those advancements would not have occurred if the dissenters did not face opposition.  Let's get something clear before we go any further though: By definition, a dissenter is someone who goes against social norms.  On these particular Discussion Boards, you are not a dissenter.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: Ursus on December 16, 2011, 10:40:17 AM
Quote from: "TC_Saved_Me"
Dissention advances civilization. Those advancements would not have occurred if the dissenters did not face opposition. Let's get something clear before we go any further though: By definition, a dissenter is someone who goes against social norms. On these particular Discussion Boards, you are not a dissenter.
One could also observe that, in the Teen Challenge community, neither are you, "TC_Saved_Me."

But seriously... what does dissenting or not dissenting, and its relative merits or demerits, have to do with whether a particular treatment modality is abusive or not?
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on December 16, 2011, 11:26:46 AM
Quote
what does dissenting or not dissenting, and its relative merits or demerits, have to do with whether a particular treatment modality is abusive or not?

Absolutely nothing whatsoever.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: Samara on December 16, 2011, 04:27:52 PM
What I'm saying is that your friend appears intolerant of people who dissent from his POV that TC is the Savior. Also, your post still shows a complete minimalization of TC dissenters as rule whiners. It is NOT uncommon for Programmees to drink the Kool Aid and think without this program I'd be dead. Often, these same people feel differently once the Kool Aid wears off.  I'm just not as dismissive of the opinions of people who found TC lacking in ethical boundaries. That is all. I'm not going to marginalize them as rule whiners. If God put it there to save your ass, more power to you. Sounds ridiculous to me, but whatever.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: Anonymous on December 16, 2011, 04:29:55 PM
.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on December 19, 2011, 09:00:38 AM
Quote from: "Samara"
What I'm saying is that your friend appears intolerant of people who dissent from his POV that TC is the Savior. Also, your post still shows a complete minimalization of TC dissenters as rule whiners. It is NOT uncommon for Programmees to drink the Kool Aid and think without this program I'd be dead. Often, these same people feel differently once the Kool Aid wears off.  I'm just not as dismissive of the opinions of people who found TC lacking in ethical boundaries. That is all. I'm not going to marginalize them as rule whiners. If God put it there to save your ass, more power to you. Sounds ridiculous to me, but whatever.

I see what you're saying.  There could be a fine line between whether those who choose to leave the program are dissenters or "rule whiners."  I'm sure alot of them leave for personal convictions about the ethical boundaries of the program.

I'm not sure any graduate of that program would consider TC a "Savior" though.  TC is just the media that God chooses to save us.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: none-ya on December 19, 2011, 06:15:06 PM
Quote
TC_Saved_Me wrote;
I'm not sure any graduate of that program would consider TC a "Savior" though. TC is just the media that God chooses to save us.

Spoken like a true Tim Tebow fan.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: Ursus on December 20, 2011, 11:18:47 PM
Quote from: "none-ya"
Quote from: "TC_Saved_Me"
I'm not sure any graduate of that program would consider TC a "Savior" though. TC is just the media that God chooses to save us.
Spoken like a true Tim Tebow fan.
I'm a bit curious, "TC_Saved_Me," about the "saving" or "Savior" component of what you just said... in light of your chosen username...?
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on December 21, 2011, 12:56:26 PM
Quote
I'm a bit curious, "TC_Saved_Me," about the "saving" or "Savior" component of what you just said... in light of your chosen username...?

I guess this should have been my username, but it was a little bit too long:   "God_Used_TC_To_Save_Me_Through_Faith_In_Jesus_Christ"

Not to be too theological, but I believe that TC saved me (from a worldly, sobriety perspective).  But TC is no "Savior" (by that I mean that TC can not save my soul from eternal damnation [hell]).

I received my salvation in TC, so it is the means at which God chose to bring me to my eternal salvation.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: none-ya on December 21, 2011, 04:08:14 PM
So much emphasis on the soul. We should concentrate on mind and body, At least we can prove they exist.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: none-ya on December 21, 2011, 04:22:01 PM
If you got clean you did it. If you do drugs you do them.
 Unless you hear voices in your head, telling you what to do,
 all the choices you make are your own. Explain secular sobriety. Besides, I know plenty of christians that drink. Including clergy. Me,I'm just is uncomfortable in a bar as I am in church.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on December 28, 2011, 12:19:28 PM
Quote from: "none-ya"
If you got clean you did it. If you do drugs you do them.
 Unless you hear voices in your head, telling you what to do,
 all the choices you make are your own. Explain secular sobriety. Besides, I know plenty of christians that drink. Including clergy. Me,I'm just is uncomfortable in a bar as I am in church.

You can make all the points you want about secular sobriety and Christians that drink (even I'll have a glass of wine every now and again).

What I don't think you can do though, is tell me how I got clean.  I know how I got clean, and it wasn't by my own strength.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: none-ya on December 28, 2011, 04:18:33 PM
Sounds like you don't take any credit for your successes. But it does sound like you take all the blame for your failures. You can't have it both ways. Besides if you drink wine you're not really clean.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: Samara on December 29, 2011, 11:50:45 AM
Yeah, that's a real road block for me in terms of buying the Christian perspective of "spirituality." All credit goes to God; all blame goes to people. Of course in secular programs it is all credit goes to Program.  The Program is God.

It is hard to buy God as an intervening God anyway, at the very least.  You know that saying by Epicurus, something like, "If God is willing to prevent evil, but unable, then he is not omnipotent. If he is able to prevent evil, but not willing, than he is malevolent. If he is unable and unwilling then is he God?

The free will argument is BS. If I was a bystander to evil, than I bear culpability.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on December 29, 2011, 03:54:35 PM
Quote
It is hard to buy God as an intervening God anyway, at the very least.  You know that saying by Epicurus, something like, "If God is willing to prevent evil, but unable, then he is not omnipotent. If he is able to prevent evil, but not willing, than he is malevolent. If he is unable and unwilling then is he God?


I think it is wonderful that you are challenging Christian theology.  Of course it is counterproductive, though, if you only challenge these beliefs for the sake of debate.  It would be a glorious thing if you could study the Bible to prove Christian doctrine wrong.  (I know many people who study human philosophy and historical occurances to attempt to debunk the existence of an omniscent, omnipotent God.)

This is an interesting conversation.  Very deep.  I love it!

Quote
But it does sound like you take all the blame for your failures. You can't have it both ways. Besides if you drink wine you're not really clean.

There was a day that I carried alot of bitterness about the way that my parents raised me, but that didn't get me anywhere.  Like you said, I make my own choices: I chose drugs, I chose to receive Christ into my life to free me from my addiction.  

Whether you think I'm not really clean or not because I choose to drink a glass of wine once in a while is a matter of opinion.  I'm sure there are other people who wouldn't label me an addict because of that.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: Anonymous on December 29, 2011, 04:16:00 PM
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Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on December 29, 2011, 04:31:33 PM
Quote from: "Wayne Kernochan"
So, why did God save you and forsake so many others?

Does he prefer you?

"Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10: 13)  Everyone!  

I just cried out to Him for help because I tried to leave the drugs behind so many times before, and...
"he turned to me and heard my cry.
 He lifted me out of the slimy pit,
   out of the mud and mire;
he set my feet on a rock
   and gave me a firm place to stand.
 He put a new song in my mouth" (Psalm 40: 1b-3a)

I would say that God has not forsaken anyone.  Motivated by His immeasurable love and grace, He gives everyone the opportunity to make their own decisions.  It's what we do with those opportunities that define our lives.  But I can tell you from personal experience that, "He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentence." (2 Peter 3:9)
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: none-ya on December 29, 2011, 04:36:53 PM
I never said you were an addict.(you did) I said you weren't clean. If God wanted you sober,and you still drink once in a while, then it sounds like he did a half assed job on you.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on December 29, 2011, 04:53:44 PM
Quote from: "none-ya"
I never said you were an addict.(you did) I said you weren't clean. If God wanted you sober,and you still drink once in a while, then it sounds like he did a half assed job on you.

Can't get anything by you.   :notworthy:
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: Anonymous on December 29, 2011, 04:58:31 PM
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Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: none-ya on December 29, 2011, 05:23:21 PM
I'd like to know if your program was catholic based. That would explain a lot. They will use your sins against you for guilt. And then absolve you with confession for control.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: Xelebes on December 29, 2011, 06:27:47 PM
Quote from: "TC_Saved_Me"
Quote
It is hard to buy God as an intervening God anyway, at the very least.  You know that saying by Epicurus, something like, "If God is willing to prevent evil, but unable, then he is not omnipotent. If he is able to prevent evil, but not willing, than he is malevolent. If he is unable and unwilling then is he God?


I think it is wonderful that you are challenging Christian theology.  Of course it is counterproductive, though, if you only challenge these beliefs for the sake of debate.  It would be a glorious thing if you could study the Bible to prove Christian doctrine wrong.  (I know many people who study human philosophy and historical occurances to attempt to debunk the existence of an omniscent, omnipotent God.)

This is an interesting conversation.  Very deep.  I love it!

I grew up with the Bible.  When I gave up on it, my life was saved so to speak.  My personal experience with the Bible and practicing the rituals did not save me from the hell.  So to say that I should use the Bible to prove Christianity wrong, I have to say that I have no faith in it saying anything all too important.  It has a few old chestnuts that have hung around with humanity since forever (The Golden Rule, the prohibition of murder, the prohibition of rape and so forth) and a lot of fanciful wishing on the part of the writers who turn to vagueness or hyperbole, in hopes that the reader or the listener (if relying on the preacher to read it for you) will feel spirited enough to go along with the traditions of the community or the powers that be.  There is nothing to prove or disprove because the hyperbole will be explained as a parable and the vagueness will be explained by supplementary flapdoodle from previous cultural iterations (in the case of English Protestantism, Wodenist beliefs, Roman beliefs and some Celtic beliefs.)
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on December 30, 2011, 09:08:03 AM
Quote from: "Wayne Kernochan"
Romans 10:13 refers to the soul, not the body

I know lots of people who asked god to save them from addiction. He did for some, and not for others

Mostly, I think it is speaking of salvation - you're right - but I don't think we should put God "in a box."  He can save us from more than hellfire if we are willing to meet Him halfway.  It says in the Bible that he counts our tears, and has the very hairs of our head numbered.  He knows us and cares about us that much.  In my personal experience, I lost everything I had from a crack addiction - my wife, my job, my car (Everything!)...  I tried several times to quit, and was arrested a couple of times because of my problem.  I remember laying in bed, balling my eyes out, begging God (I never even went to church before this).  I was literally gasping for air I was crying so hard, and begging Him to help me get sober.  Did I wake up the next day without any cravings?  No.  I was actually arrested the next day, and ended up in Teen Challenge.  That's where He took my cravings from me.

Psalm 51: 17 says, "The sacrifices of God are a ??broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise."   Once my heart and my spirit were completely broken, that is when God intervened.  This is just my two cents, but I wonder if God hasn't yet saved some people who asked him for help because He knows that - deep down - those people are still not ready for fully surrender to Him..  Deep down, maybe they are not broken..??
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on December 30, 2011, 09:12:15 AM
Quote from: "none-ya"
I'd like to know if your program was catholic based. That would explain a lot. They will use your sins against you for guilt. And then absolve you with confession for control.

Teen Challenge is a non-profit, non-denominational ministry.  They are affiliated with the Assemblies of God, but they welcome anyone from any background.  

I've never seen this brought up, but I would imagine that they would discourage confession of sins to a priest.  Though it does say in the Bible that we should confess our sins to one another, and find healing in that, AG doctrine presents that you can only receive forgiveness of your sins through faith in Christ, not through a priestly confession.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on December 30, 2011, 09:32:34 AM
Quote
I grew up with the Bible.  When I gave up on it, my life was saved so to speak.  My personal experience with the Bible and practicing the rituals did not save me from the hell.  So to say that I should use the Bible to prove Christianity wrong, I have to say that I have no faith in it saying anything all too important.  It has a few old chestnuts that have hung around with humanity since forever (The Golden Rule, the prohibition of murder, the prohibition of rape and so forth) and a lot of fanciful wishing on the part of the writers who turn to vagueness or hyperbole, in hopes that the reader or the listener (if relying on the preacher to read it for you) will feel spirited enough to go along with the traditions of the community or the powers that be.  There is nothing to prove or disprove because the hyperbole will be explained as a parable and the vagueness will be explained by supplementary flapdoodle from previous cultural iterations (in the case of English Protestantism, Wodenist beliefs, Roman beliefs and some Celtic beliefs.)

You're making a point about vagueness, but it seems to me like you are being pretty vague about the vagueness!  What exactly do you find vague?

As far as the "practicing of rituals" goes, that is contrary to everything that Jesus came to teach.  He was steady rebuking the Pharisees for being ritualistic.  Sounds like you might relate a little bit with Martin Luther who fathered the reformation of the Roman Catholic church.  Luther was a monk, and used to walk up the stairs of the temple on his bare knees to receive forgiveness for his sins.  He felt that he had to somehow merit the favor and forgiveness of God by performing rituals and using Catholic relics.  That continued for a while until he truely understood Ephesians 2: 8-9, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."  Once he understood that the mercy of God is unmerited through the death of Christ, it sparked him to challenge Roman Catholicism.  

This is the foundation of Protestantism, that the practicing of rituals cannot save us from hell.  Our rituals are as filthy rags in the sight of a Holy God.  None of the animal sacrifices of the Old Covenant were good enough.  That is why Christ came to offer Himself as our sacrifice.  That if we believe in Him, we will be saved.  Then we get into the whole book of James, and understand that when we truely put our faith in a perfect Jesus Christ, it leads us to start doing things a little bit differently.  Obeying certain commandments will start to come a little more naturally.  Of course, no earthly Christians is perfect, but God will see to it that through our faith in Christ, "he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." (Philippians 1: 6)
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: Samara on December 30, 2011, 01:05:12 PM
It all sounds like crazy talk to me. Murder = Salvation? I've read the Bible - albeit a long time ago. Went to churches and synagogues. I tried to read it again a few years ago, but frankly, hated how women were represented and the treatment of the Bible as Divine when it was written by men. Not God. I finally realized I was trying to find something that didn't exist for me in the Bible.   Also, when I look around me, at the Fundie place I work, I don't see a lot of Christians acting Christ-like. It would be cool if they did - I don't see charity as simply throwing money at organizations or volunteering at a soup kitchen a few times a year. Though those are all good, its pretty easy to do if you have a little extra time or a little extra money.  What I see in short supply is a lack of generosity in spirit.  Also how hard is it to live mostly ethically? (I prefer ethics to morality; morality is a bit more arbitrary.)

Since I stopped trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, I've been at peace. I am fine with uncertainty of afterlife. If there is a grand overbearing figure, it seems he'd understand agnosticism or atheism....  The miracle to me isn't the parting of the red sea but every oak tree or flower or ladybug or even my children growing or the fact I can enjoy five senses. Neither religion nor science will ever explain the miracle of that - so I just accept and appreciate it.  Godliness to me is just goodliness... a choice of evolving our consciousness. Becoming less self absorbed and more generous and kind.

I also cannot understand an omnipotent, separate being that would not intercede in the lives of starved, abused, and tortured children.  So the idea of a the Great Father in the Sky is a bit difficult to intake.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: Anonymous on December 30, 2011, 03:17:09 PM
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Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: Xelebes on December 30, 2011, 03:50:02 PM
Quote from: "TC_Saved_Me"
Quote
I grew up with the Bible.  When I gave up on it, my life was saved so to speak.  My personal experience with the Bible and practicing the rituals did not save me from the hell.  So to say that I should use the Bible to prove Christianity wrong, I have to say that I have no faith in it saying anything all too important.  It has a few old chestnuts that have hung around with humanity since forever (The Golden Rule, the prohibition of murder, the prohibition of rape and so forth) and a lot of fanciful wishing on the part of the writers who turn to vagueness or hyperbole, in hopes that the reader or the listener (if relying on the preacher to read it for you) will feel spirited enough to go along with the traditions of the community or the powers that be.  There is nothing to prove or disprove because the hyperbole will be explained as a parable and the vagueness will be explained by supplementary flapdoodle from previous cultural iterations (in the case of English Protestantism, Wodenist beliefs, Roman beliefs and some Celtic beliefs.)

You're making a point about vagueness, but it seems to me like you are being pretty vague about the vagueness!  What exactly do you find vague?

As far as the "practicing of rituals" goes, that is contrary to everything that Jesus came to teach.  He was steady rebuking the Pharisees for being ritualistic.  Sounds like you might relate a little bit with Martin Luther who fathered the reformation of the Roman Catholic church.  Luther was a monk, and used to walk up the stairs of the temple on his bare knees to receive forgiveness for his sins.  He felt that he had to somehow merit the favor and forgiveness of God by performing rituals and using Catholic relics.  That continued for a while until he truely understood Ephesians 2: 8-9, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."  Once he understood that the mercy of God is unmerited through the death of Christ, it sparked him to challenge Roman Catholicism.  

This is the foundation of Protestantism, that the practicing of rituals cannot save us from hell.  Our rituals are as filthy rags in the sight of a Holy God.  None of the animal sacrifices of the Old Covenant were good enough.  That is why Christ came to offer Himself as our sacrifice.  That if we believe in Him, we will be saved.  Then we get into the whole book of James, and understand that when we truely put our faith in a perfect Jesus Christ, it leads us to start doing things a little bit differently.  Obeying certain commandments will start to come a little more naturally.  Of course, no earthly Christians is perfect, but God will see to it that through our faith in Christ, "he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." (Philippians 1: 6)

I would say the vagueness is appropriately summarised by the entire corpus of theology.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on December 30, 2011, 04:10:41 PM
That's an extremely well thought out reply Samara.  I can respect that you try to live a good life.  For the sake of exercising my understanding, I will try to reply to your points here.  Plus I feel inclined to in case someone happens to stumble upon these Boards one day in the future and that person has been misinformed about what most Christians believe of the Bible.

I should start by saying that I believe most Christians believe mostly the same fundamental things about scripture, but don't know how to articulate it.  I'm working on learning how to do that myself, which is the main reason for my reply here:

Quote
Murder = Salvation?

Kind of, yes.  It goes back to the Garden of Eden when Adam and Eve lived in what was a perfect world at the time (no sin at all).  When they bit into the fruit, their eyes were opened to the idea of right and wrong, and they noticed they were naked.  It says that they clothed themselves with fig leaves.  Remember?  (Genesis 1).

First point to understand about this:  when they committed this first sin, it would infect all of their offspring with sin as well (all of humanity).  Humanity also lost the ability to have direct contact with God as a result (a perfect God cannot have fellowship with an imperfect person).  This is why God commanded Moses to include a curtain in the temple to seperate the Most Holy Place (the place the God's presence dwelt) (Exodus 36-39).

Second point that I should point out is this:  the first thing God did after confronting Adam and Eve was replace their fig leaves with an animal skin.  The reason He did this is because their sin could only be forgiven through a sacrifice.  A living thing had to be sacrificed for their sin to be forgiven.

Many years later, and many animal sacrifices later, God decided it was time to offer a perfect sacrifice.  A sacrifice that was available to both Jews and Gentiles.  A sacrifice that could forgive all sins - past, present, or future.  Out of God's great love for humanity, He was tired of being seperated from us as well.  It says in one of the Old Testament prophecies that it please God to crush Him [Christ] and put this burden on Him (Isaiah 53: 10).  It pleased God because He knew it would reunite Him with us!  He also knew that it was necessary to kill Jesus to raise Jesus from the dead, and to heaven!

This is the best way I can explain why "Murder = Salvation" sort of.  I would say it like this though:  "God's Sacrifice = Man's Salvation"

I know I've already typed Way too much, so I'll respond to the rest in a second post.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on December 30, 2011, 04:12:29 PM
Quote
the treatment of the Bible as Divine when it was written by men. Not God.

It is treated as divine for a couple of reasons:
1) The Bible has just as much archaelogical evidence to prove that it accurately depicts historical events as any History book does.
2) There are several hundred prophecies documented in the Old Testament that were fullfilled hundreds of years later (this is probably the main reason that people consider the Bible to be inspired by God - not written by God).
3) With all the evidence of the influence of God in the Bible, it says in 2 Timothy 3 that, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God."

Quote
don't see a lot of Christians acting Christ-like
Quote
What I see in short supply is a lack of generosity in spirit.

I tend to agree with you here.  We are all a product of an overall selfish society.  It often seems that there is more evil running rampant in the world, and even in the church, then there is good.  I am not much of a saint myself.  I love God, and try to obey His every command, but I often do not do what would be considered honorable in the sight of God.  I would say that if you hung around me 5 years ago, and hung around me today though, you would see alot more righteous living today versus before I began to seek God.

I believe that once we believe in the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus Christ on the cross, we are justified - we are "considered" righteous in the sight of God.  Justification is instantaneous upon receiving it.  

After we go through immediate justification, God begins another process in us called sanctification.  Sanctification is when He begins to purge of of our impurity and unrighteousness.  

Justification is immediate - sanctification is a process.  They are both a result of faith in Christ.  Christians who are not acting Christ-like, are in a process of sactification.  Or they really aren't Christians and just call themselves Christians (but that not up for us to decide.)

Quote
Also how hard is it to live mostly ethically?
 I don't know about you, but I have an extremely difficult time doing this, but let me throw a thought at you, and see what you think:
Since I believe in God, I obviously believe in the devil as well.  The greatest gift to man kind is salvation and eternal life with God in heaven.  Naturally, God and his "Heavenly hosts" want us to receive this gift.  The devil does not.  Because I believe in Christ, and have recieved this gift of salvation, the devil is pissed, and wants to try and take it from me.  The devil is gonna throw everything he can at me to try and get me to turn my back on this gift.   On the other hand though, if someone hasn't receive this gift, the devil is cool with that person, and isn't as concerned about throwing temptations their way.

I think it might be harder for Christians to do what is right, in a way, because they have received this awesome gift from God, and the devil and his dominions are pissed about that.  The devil isn't pissed at the people who have not yet received that gift!  I know this is alot, but this is what I think.  

Whattaya think??
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on December 30, 2011, 04:16:36 PM
Quote
I would say the vagueness is appropriately summarised by the entire corpus of theology.

I believed the moment I heard that Jesus died on a cross for my sins to be forgiven.  I also believed the moment I heard that Jesus loved me.  I just never understood why.  There wasn't a single sermon, or church service that gave me reason for any more understanding of my new found faith, so I see what your saying about the vagueness of theology.

I think it's a problem too.

I was a Christian for almost two years before I had enough discussions with others and studied the Bible enough to fully understand all the nuances of why I had become a Christian.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: none-ya on December 30, 2011, 04:37:24 PM
T-C, as an American you have the right to believe any fool thing you want. You also had the right of free choise,as to stay or leave your program.Most of the people here did not have that choise. They were minors.If minors in your program are forced to ppadopt a religion or even made to read the Bible.(via court order),that is a clear violation of the separation of church and state. Believe what you want but don't force it upon children who don't know any better.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on December 30, 2011, 05:07:01 PM
none-ya, that is completely irrelevant to the conversation that has taken place here.  You are talking about a completely different Teen Challenge.  Furthermore, we stopped talking about Teen Challenge over a week ago in this Discussion.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: Samara on December 30, 2011, 05:17:08 PM
TC - I am happy you are happier and presumably, more ethical. But it all sounds batshit crazy to me.  No different than mythology.

And, really, I have a greater appreciation when people "do the right thing" without the hope or promise of reward. Intrinsic value.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: none-ya on December 30, 2011, 05:22:22 PM
God save me from your followers!
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: none-ya on December 30, 2011, 05:29:25 PM
Religion is nothing more than fascism.Believe as I do or suffer the consequences
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: none-ya on December 31, 2011, 10:38:10 AM
T-C, Funny how you haven't responded To the woman who lost her son at the hands of teen challenge. Not even to offer condolences. How christian.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: Ursus on December 31, 2011, 11:02:48 AM
Quote from: "none-ya"
T-C, Funny how you haven't responded To the woman who lost her son at the hands of teen challenge. Not even to offer condolences. How christian.
Here's a link to that thread, in case "TC_Saved_Me" is up for it:

Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: none-ya on January 02, 2012, 10:17:12 AM
Man wrote the bible,but the facts speak for themselves.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on January 03, 2012, 09:05:32 AM
Quote from: "Samara"
And, really, I have a greater appreciation when people "do the right thing" without the hope or promise of reward. Intrinsic value.

So does the God of the Bible!  He tells us in the old testament that He desires mercy and not sacrifice.  He says that our good deeds are as "filthy rags" in His sight.  Christianity offers no promise of reward for doing the right thing - anyone who says that should study the Bible a little harder (alot of Christians consider the "rewards by doing good deeds" theology to be a terrible fallacy).  The only promise of reward that Christianity offers is eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: none-ya on January 03, 2012, 06:57:15 PM
BULL, The carrot on the end of the christian stick is heaven.
 And by the way I can't believe we had to shame you into responding to that woman who lost her son. It doesnt even sound like you read her story.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on January 03, 2012, 11:02:49 PM
Quote from: "none-ya"
BULL, The carrot on the end of the christian stick is heaven.
 And by the way I can't believe we had to shame you into responding to that woman who lost her son. It doesnt even sound like you read her story.

You must have some serious gall to use that thread as an outlet for your bitterness!  That woman lost her son man!  

That thread is a fond tribute to that woman's son, and I think it was extremely distasteful for you to choose that thread to try to somehow challenge my beliefs.  

If you have a problem with me, fine!  If you have a problem with the rehab that God used to deliver me from an addiction that would have otherwise killed me, FINE!  Take it up with me!  

And if you think you can bate me into being a bad representation of Christ or Christianity, I have news for you... You probably can!  I've been a Christian for six years, and have a lot of growing up to do!  I'll be the first to admit that.  If you think I'm going to drop to your level of cynicalness, and pick a verbal fight on a thread that is honoring that woman's son, you do not know me very well.

Regarding your above comment, I'll have the last word!  You can rot away in your white washed tomb all you want.  I choose to stand before the presence of a Holy and Awesome God when I die!

"Blessed are those who are persecuted for My name's sake, for great is their reward in heaven." - Jesus Christ
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: none-ya on January 04, 2012, 10:06:25 AM
That's the nicest way I've ever been told to go to hell. jesus would be so proud of you.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on January 04, 2012, 10:47:57 AM
I came here to present a different view of Teen Challenge that I didn't feel was being properly represented.  90% of the centers are for adults (ages 18 and over).  It is that majority that I wanted to offer some insight on.

It was fun how the conversation evolved into a theological discussion, and I always welcome freindly debate about religion.

I'll continue to poke my head in every now and again to see if anyone has any questions about the four Teen Challenge centers that I have first-hand experience with (Philadelphia, San Diego, Riverside, and Pittsburgh).

I'm certainly open for mature discussion about just about anything else as well.  I'll no longer respond to irrelevant castigations though.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: none-ya on January 04, 2012, 01:17:54 PM
You offered up nothing useful here. You're just trying to do damage control for teen challenge. You say that they helped you, but you don't seem to care that they've killed others. I guess to you that's a fair trade off. I don't care about your religious beliefs I do however care about your attitude towards survivors and their families. Just because you have a plastic fish,and a WWJD? sticker on your car doesn't make you a good person. I'll bet you're the type who goes out to eat and leaves religious tracts on the table instead of a tip. Keep drinking the kool aid from your holy grail!
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on March 08, 2012, 11:23:00 AM
Quote from: "none-ya"
You offered up nothing useful here. You're just trying to do damage control for teen challenge. You say that they helped you, but you don't seem to care that they've killed others. I guess to you that's a fair trade off. I don't care about your religious beliefs I do however care about your attitude towards survivors and their families. Just because you have a plastic fish,and a WWJD? sticker on your car doesn't make you a good person. I'll bet you're the type who goes out to eat and leaves religious tracts on the table instead of a tip. Keep drinking the kool aid from your holy grail!


I would NEVER put a Jesus sticker on my car!  Then, as soon as I'd cut off someone like you, you'd claim that it was a personal reflection on Christianity, and try to claim that Jesus is not the Messiah because some puttz Christian like me isn't perfect...

I want everyone to read None-ya's response to me in this poor women's post.  You'll see that I offered her my condolences followed by a prayer, and charged her to continue to challenge Teen Challenge (even though I support the program), and None-ya saw that as an opportunity to express his personal vendetta against me and a program that he knows nothing about.

None-ya, you should exercise more wisdom and foresight than to use this women's tribute to her son as your personal sounding board!  You've lowered yourself to the level of the Westboro Baptist Church protesting a military funeral!

This should be a little telling of how influencial none-ya's opinion should be:

viewtopic.php?f=57&t=38009 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=38009)
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: none-ya on March 08, 2012, 11:55:27 AM
Please don't take it personally. I feel the same way about all of McChristianity. And as far as this program goes your right. All I know about it is what you've told me. And to me that pretty much sucks.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: none-ya on March 08, 2012, 12:09:02 PM
Quote
T C wrote;
Furthermore, we stopped talking about Teen Challenge over a week ago in this Discussion.

This whole discussion Stopped over 3 months ago.So WTF?
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on March 09, 2012, 09:33:04 AM
I had to have the last word because I'm a arrogant butthole.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: none-ya on March 09, 2012, 11:56:05 AM
Look,I've never called you names.Sure I challenge faith based decisions and justifications. But please don't take it personally, 'cause that applies to everyone.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: none-ya on March 11, 2012, 04:51:06 AM
Quote
T C wrote;
I would NEVER put a Jesus sticker on my car! Then, as soon as I'd cut off someone like you, you'd claim that it was a personal reflection on Christianity, and try to claim that Jesus is not the Messiah because some puttz Christian like me isn't perfect..

Only if the sticker read "God is my co-pilot".
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: none-ya on March 12, 2012, 10:32:41 AM
Tell me when you wrote that prayer, did you bow your head and close your eyes? Because if you didn't,it doesn't count. Kinda like crossing your fingers when you tell a lie.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: none-ya on March 15, 2012, 12:14:33 AM
Well Mr. Christian??
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: xnsion on August 05, 2012, 07:08:28 PM
TC, you are a pretentious asshole.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: TC_Saved_Me on November 27, 2012, 02:22:43 PM
xnsion wrote :
> TC, you are a pretentious asshole.

Believe me, God is still humbling me.  Luckily He's not finished with me yet.  But, yeah, you're absolutely right.
Title: Re: I personally escaped this Cult
Post by: none-ya on November 27, 2012, 03:32:32 PM
1 "In the beginning Man created God;
And in the image of Man created he him.

2 And Man gave unto God a multitude of names,
that he might be Lord over all the earth when it was suited to Man.

3 And on the seven millionth day Man rested
and did lean heavily on his God and saw that it was good.

4 And Man formed Aqualung of the dust of the ground,
and a host of others likened unto his kind.

5 And these lesser men Man did cast into the void. And some were burned;
and some were put apart from their kind.

6 And Man became the God that he had created
and with his miracles did rule over all the earth.

7 But as these things did come to pass,
the Spirit that did cause Man to create his God
lived on within all men: even within Aqualung.

8 And Man saw it not.

9 But for Christ’s sake he’d better start looking. "


 Ian Anderson