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Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Jimmy Cusick on January 20, 2005, 02:48:00 PM

Title: Did the seed introduce us to a higher power?
Post by: Jimmy Cusick on January 20, 2005, 02:48:00 PM
Ive been wondering what role the seed played in my present day spirituality. When we worked the 3rd step-Turned our life and will over to the care of a higher power- Did that mean to assume we had a god of our understanding or to invent one or to use the group as a higher power?
As I remember Jesus Christ was the God of my childhood but I dont remember using him much in my teenage seed years. I did use the mountains, the tree's, the universe as cosmic higher power but I think that was after the seed.

I dont think I learned much about spirituality in the seed as I was taught to rely on self for the power to accomplish whatever it was that I was attempting to do. Why cant I remember learning anything about God? Did any other seedlings have similiar experiences? Let me know.
 Jimmy
Title: Did the seed introduce us to a higher power?
Post by: GregFL on January 20, 2005, 02:53:00 PM
Jimmy, in st pete, in 1973, "the group" was most everyone´s higher power.

I always thought this was so hippocritical, art used to tell people their kids would be straight, love God and country, but in reality the seed had a definite athiestic bent.

In answer to your question I can so with absolute certainty the seed played and plays no role in my spirituality or lack thereof
Title: Did the seed introduce us to a higher power?
Post by: GregFL on January 20, 2005, 02:54:00 PM
Also, you were never taught to rely of ¨self¨but rather were taught that your ¨self¨was weak and powerless and doomed to ultimate failure without the seed.
Title: Did the seed introduce us to a higher power?
Post by: cleveland on January 20, 2005, 04:28:00 PM
I didn't learn anything about god or my own spirituality. I just learned to follow the group without question...

Religion was discouraged, like anything else that wasn't 100% Seed...I can't imagine somebody actually praying, wearing religious clothing, attending church or temple, or having a religious discussion at the Seed. "My Higher Power is the Group" was the only thing we were encouraged to say.
Title: Did the seed introduce us to a higher power?
Post by: marshall on January 20, 2005, 07:57:00 PM
Some oldcomers did attend church while I was on the program. But it was rare. I recall a few oldtimers visiting and speaking about finding god or getting born-again, etc. We were told that art borrowed ideas from many of the major world's religions as well as psychology when he constructed the seed program.

The seed was too close to being a religion itself to encourage or allow too much religious involvement. I remember being actively discouraged from asking any 'deep' or existential questions. Such inquiries as to the meaning of life, what happens when we die or the origin of the universe, etc.  were dismissed as 'philosophical bullshit' and getting into your head. I remember one oldtimer acquantance that was struggling with these sort of questions and the seed concluded that he was crazy and the seed couldn't help him. He hadn't used drugs or alcohol, yet the seed rejected him and urged him to see a therapist. I knew him. He wasn't insane. Just asking the kinds of questions lots of people have asked through-out the ages. If the seed didn't have the answer...it was not a valid question.

If anyone questioned communism or the party-line, the soviet union routinely placed them in psychiatric hospitals. Since communism was obviously the perfect system, anyone doubting it 'must' be crazy!
Title: Did the seed introduce us to a higher power?
Post by: Fran on January 20, 2005, 10:26:00 PM
I had always thought that a higher power was God. And I do remember everynight to hold hands and say the Lords Prayer. I do not recall talking about religion or beliefs but I also do not recall religion,God or beliefs to be put down either. But again this was in 73-early 75...I do not know what happened later on.[ This Message was edited by: Fran on 2005-01-20 19:32 ]
Title: Did the seed introduce us to a higher power?
Post by: Tony Stark on January 21, 2005, 12:51:00 AM
It was not the creator we were introduced to but somewhat of a counterfit, but that was then. "Synanon" also uses world religions too. Google search it. But Bible study was encouraged to me by staff. :smokin:

May the fleas of one thousand llamas infest your armpits
--One ticked off sysadmin



_Don't be pissed at me sysadmin. I'm not going to cut your toungue out or gouge your eyes out. ________________
"This is a Republic"-VA Man.[ This Message was edited by: The Seeker on 2005-01-20 21:54 ]
Title: Did the seed introduce us to a higher power?
Post by: GregFL on January 21, 2005, 10:30:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-01-20 19:26:00, Fran wrote:

"I had always thought that a higher power was God. And I do remember everynight to hold hands and say the Lords Prayer. I do not recall talking about religion or beliefs but I also do not recall religion,God or beliefs to be put down either. But again this was in 73-early 75...I do not know what happened later on.[ This Message was edited by: Fran on 2005-01-20 19:32 ]"


I think you are confusing "the lords prayer" with the serenity prayer, and in the context of saying "god grant me the serenity...", you are really asking the group to grant you these things.

In affect, you are in a very creepy way praying to the group.
Title: Did the seed introduce us to a higher power?
Post by: Fran on January 21, 2005, 11:44:00 AM
No I remember everynight holding hands and saying the Lords prayer this basically closed the meetings even the open meetings where the parents came in we did this...and also we did say the Serenity Prayer. This prayer I use today without thought of the seed. Also the mustard seed was a big thing...I remember buying a necklace of a mustard seed and wearing it.
Like I said, I was there full time other then school from Jan-April 73 then I was an oldtimer for a year in half...we also said the Lords Prayer after every oldtimer meeting.
This was in Ft Lauderdale on 84....maybe after that time things changed.[ This Message was edited by: Fran on 2005-01-21 08:49 ]
Title: Did the seed introduce us to a higher power?
Post by: GregFL on January 21, 2005, 06:05:00 PM
hmm...anyone else remember this?  I have a hard time believing the seed would say the lords prayer, but I certainly remember saying the serenity prayer...

Looking for independent verification of Fran's memory here.
Title: Did the seed introduce us to a higher power?
Post by: TRUCKER on January 21, 2005, 09:05:00 PM
Thats how I remember it.

TRUCKER
Title: Did the seed introduce us to a higher power?
Post by: TRUCKER on January 21, 2005, 09:08:00 PM
Just like Fran said.

TRUCKER
Title: Did the seed introduce us to a higher power?
Post by: Ican'tTalktoYou on January 21, 2005, 09:23:00 PM
I was there in '73 and I do not remember ever saying the Lord's Prayer at the seed.

As a matter of fact, I was there two different times (commonly called a screw up) and I don't remember saying it either time.  The second time was late '74 or early '75.

My only experience was at the SR84 gate to hell, I never visited any of the others.....thank God.
Title: Did the seed introduce us to a higher power?
Post by: Anonymous on January 22, 2005, 11:43:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-01-21 08:44:00, Fran wrote:

"No I remember everynight holding hands and saying the Lords prayer this basically closed the meetings even the open meetings where the parents came in we did this...and also we did say the Serenity Prayer. This prayer I use today without thought of the seed. Also the mustard seed was a big thing...I remember buying a necklace of a mustard seed and wearing it.

Like I said, I was there full time other then school from Jan-April 73 then I was an oldtimer for a year in half...we also said the Lords Prayer after every oldtimer meeting.

This was in Ft Lauderdale on 84....maybe after that time things changed.[ This Message was edited by: Fran on 2005-01-21 08:49 ]"



Fran is right. It was done this way until the day it shut its doors forever.
Title: Did the seed introduce us to a higher power?
Post by: Ican'tTalktoYou on January 22, 2005, 12:39:00 PM
Well Greg, looks like you and I are the only ones that do not remember this.  I wonder why???  We both seem to have been very unhappy there.  Maybe we said it by rote every night. I can see how feelings of abandonment and unhappiness could do that.

What do you think?
Title: Did the seed introduce us to a higher power?
Post by: Fran on January 22, 2005, 12:55:00 PM
The reason I remember that we said the Lords Prayer is how we held hands when we said it...and years later when I went to church we would do the same thing and it brought back the memory of doing it at the seed.
Thank you for backing me up on this Trucker and Anon...it was not a figment of my imagination.
Title: Did the seed introduce us to a higher power?
Post by: GregFL on January 22, 2005, 01:39:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-22 09:39:00, Ican'tTalktoYou wrote:

"Well Greg, looks like you and I are the only ones that do not remember this.  I wonder why???  We both seem to have been very unhappy there.  Maybe we said it by rote every night. I can see how feelings of abandonment and unhappiness could do that.



What do you think?"


I Just think 30 year old memories aren't always right. That is why I asked for independent verification. Thanks trucker and Fran.
Title: Did the seed introduce us to a higher power?
Post by: GregFL on January 22, 2005, 01:41:00 PM
Now I am wondering why? Why did the seed say the lord's prayer? The place wasn't religious....

someone know?
Title: Did the seed introduce us to a higher power?
Post by: Anonymous on January 22, 2005, 01:47:00 PM
It eas considered a universal prayer at seed (once again, not a prayer that claimed a particular faith). It was said right after "Jingle Bells." All would have to be holding hands as part of the circl. Ask away, greg. . .here is your chance. . .everyhting you've wanted to know.
Title: Did the seed introduce us to a higher power?
Post by: GregFL on January 22, 2005, 01:52:00 PM
Thanks. Might I ask whom I am speaking to? Whoever you are..welcome to the forum.

Now that I am asking "anything I ever wanted to know", the first question, the big one..is

"where did art learn the synanon techniques used at the seed?
Title: Did the seed introduce us to a higher power?
Post by: Anonymous on January 22, 2005, 02:03:00 PM
that i know of none. . .as far as i know, there was never any talk or connection made public to group that there was a connection to synanon techniques. . .considering the details in books about synanon it was quite different than seed in many way (my opinion) . . .yeah the similarity was thye were both from A.A. I think that fact enough was a connection that both men took it in their own direction. . .after all it isn't the first or last time someone leaves an organization and gives their own organization their own spin.
Title: Did the seed introduce us to a higher power?
Post by: GregFL on January 22, 2005, 02:11:00 PM
sorry, but AA never used toilet seats, boxing rings,and screaming in your face as "therapy".

The commonality and termonology between the seed and the synanon is just to glaring. To be more clezr, the commonality between the seed and synanon offshoots like phoenix house and Elan are just to clear. Robert Dupont himself said under oath that the roots of Straight, inc were in the synanon. The roots of straight, Inc. are squarely seedling roots.

So there you have it...you haven't granted my wish yet.

 :grin:

Anyway, tell us a little about your invovlement in The Seed. How long were you there? Were you on staff?

And welcome to our forum!  If you would, please choose a username and particpate often.
Title: Did the seed introduce us to a higher power?
Post by: Robin Martin on January 22, 2005, 03:07:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-22 09:55:00, Fran wrote:

"The reason I remember that we said the Lords Prayer is how we held hands when we said it...and years later when I went to church we would do the same thing and it brought back the memory of doing it at the seed.

Thank you for backing me up on this Trucker and Anon...it was not a figment of my imagination."


Ditto for me, too!
Title: Did the seed introduce us to a higher power?
Post by: Fran on January 22, 2005, 08:15:00 PM
Yes, Anon, I remember we would sing Jingle Bells, yell out "We sing Jingle Bells because everyday we are straight it is feels just like Christmas" and then close with the Lords Prayer...honestly it was the best time of the whole day for me because then we were finally leaving for the night. The energy level was always very high at that time of night because everyone was ready to leave for awhile.
I find it very interesting that Greg and Cyndi both do not remember this part. Again maybe because it wasn't important to them or they blocked it out.
Oh yeah...if I remember correctly...Anon help me here...it was the only time that we all held hands...the guys and chicks held hands...I remember this because usually I never sat on the end but once I did and held this guys hand and all kind of things went thru my head at that point. Just another recollection that came to mind.[ This Message was edited by: Fran on 2005-01-22 17:20 ]
Title: Did the seed introduce us to a higher power?
Post by: Ican'tTalktoYou on January 22, 2005, 11:20:00 PM
Wow!! Fran you just sparked a memory for me.  I do remember the holding hand part for the very same reason.  Strange how something as innocent as holding a person's hand (a person that is almost a stranger to you, other than hearing snippets of their lives in group) can take on a new dimension in a situation like that.

However, I still don't remember saying the Lord's prayer.

These memories coming back piecemeal is weird.
Title: Did the seed introduce us to a higher power?
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 23, 2005, 09:35:00 AM
Yeah-  We said the lords prayer every day.  I believe reference to the group being a higher power was because that was where answers were comming from that I needed at that time.  Wtaylor I think I know you - in fact I know I do.  Did you become an Artist?  I have thought about you from time to time?  Are you still driving that huge clunker around?  Did you get it from your grandmother or something?  If my memory serves me correctly? :grin:
Title: Did the seed introduce us to a higher power?
Post by: GregFL on January 23, 2005, 07:31:00 PM
You know, I now do remember that whole ceremony at the end of the night, I just don't remember it as the lord's prayer.

I think I have oldtimers disease! :grin:
Title: Did the seed introduce us to a higher power?
Post by: Fran on January 23, 2005, 10:30:00 PM
That is what this forum is all about. Helping all of us remember what happened way back when...and weird how after over 30 years, each one of us, something sparked a memory that got us to this site.

Does anyone remember the story Libby told about when she was a junkie and when one of her friends Overdosed and died they stuck his body in a garbage can? That is one story that I can remember to this day...I guess at 13 it made an impression on me. She was one hardcore B****. She scared me!!!
And with all the haircuts going on didn't she have long hair if I recall?
Title: Did the seed introduce us to a higher power?
Post by: Ican'tTalktoYou on January 23, 2005, 10:54:00 PM
You recall correctly. She had very long hair, which she used to flip back constantly.
Title: Re: Did the seed introduce us to a higher power?
Post by: I'll kick your arse on May 01, 2012, 07:19:00 PM
::puke::
Title: Re: Did the seed introduce us to a higher power?
Post by: lonewolf on May 02, 2012, 09:52:35 PM
Some interesting stuff....I have been to church maybe 5 times since entered the Seed 1973. Never felt I could fit in and that they would not understand where I was coming from. I was different ....Never wanted that fellowship....still don't.
Title: Re: Did the seed introduce us to a higher power?
Post by: wanderingjew on September 03, 2013, 12:11:15 PM
I am  now an atheist.
Title: Re: Did the seed introduce us to a higher power?
Post by: Bud Greenberg on September 09, 2013, 11:42:15 AM
http://theseedindeed.wordpress.com/about/ (http://theseedindeed.wordpress.com/about/)